Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:C-c-c-c

2006-06-20T23:47:09Z

C-c-c-c:

{{unblock| I am really sorry for what could have been understood as being uncivil. I really didn't mean to offend anyone. At the time I was quite annoyed because I thought I was being treated unfairly. After some time to reflect, I realized that my actions were not right, whatever my reasons. I want to still be part of wikipedia and want to clear my act. I will avoid userboxes and am prepared to go thru arbitration. I have nothing to lose and want a second chance. I would accept any probation that they place on me, if that's their decision}}

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== Thanks for the Barnstar!!! ==

Although I'm getting a headache. I've got only ''one'' special and a '''four of a kind'''. :))) --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks C-c-c-c for the barnstar too. Cheers, --[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== Very Mad! :@ ==

Dude, I'm not 12. How many times must I tell you. Dude, CrnaGora@hotmail was already taken, so I picked CrnaGora12@hotmail because I couldn't pick which one to choose. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 03:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe you. Cheers. :) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

:Are you trying to annoy me, because you are getting on my nerves. Please, just leave me alone. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 20:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

I have blocked you for a month. You can use the time to think about your manners, [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 08:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

: I have also proposed on [[WP:AN]] that you be community-banned, given that this is your seventh block in a month for abuse, trolling, disruption and personal attacks. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 10:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, well then why don't you just quickly unblock and block me a dozen more times, and and then you can say it's 20.

:There are no objections to the community ban, so I blocked you indefinitely. Sorry. You may appeal this with {{tl|unblock}} if you have a legitimate problem. [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] [[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]] 20:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

:You promise? If you violate this again you will be indef banned. Period. Is that clear? '''[[User:Sasquatch|Sasquatch]]''' [[User_talk:Sasquatch|t]]|[[Special:Contributions/Sasquatch|c]] 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I was busy lately. Yes, I promise not to make blatant personal attacks or to edit war again. But however, you must look at some thing. Unfortunately, Andrew Norman failed to contact any admins that blocked me or even look at the block summaries. For example I was given one block by [[User: Chris0| Chris0]] for 24 hours. He later unblocked me, and blocked me to decrease the same block to only 12 hours. Why does this count for two? [[User: Alai| Alai]] blocked me for sockpuppetry, and 3RR based on RCU, but this developed into nothing. I was accused of being the sock of a now departed user, [[User:Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski]] even though it was proven that me him were not the same person, and live over 2000km away. Then, [[User: Krytan| Krytan]], [[User: Estavisti| Estavisti]], [[User: Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski]], and I, where all being sockpuppets of one another, even though we live in 4 differen time zones and two countries. (This accusation was made by [[User: Ilir_pz| Ilir_pz]] but resulted in nothing once again. I must admit that the block by [[User:JoshuaZ| JoshuaZ]] was necessary as I had broken the 3RR rule.

User [[User: InShaneee| InShaneee]] blocked me for edit warring with another user, but did do anything to the other user, not even a warning was given. ([[User: Ferick|Ferick]]), has mysteriously disappeared since then). I received a week for this, and then I told InShanee to take a closer look at Ferick's edits, which consist of erasing factual information and labelling it all as Serb Propaganda. A day went by and InShanee did not comment on the situation. Then I told him if he did not act fairly, that I would have the opinion of him being a racist. InShanee exploded after this, and reblocked me again for personal attacks. I told him if he did the right thing, and monitored Ferick's contributions and at least gave him a warning, I wouldn't think such a thing of him. But he did not, and I was unimpressed with the lack of professionalism on his part as admins should be responsible and fair.

Afterwards, [[User: Andrew Norman| Andrew Norman]] blocks me for a week because of saying "Get a life" to him in [[User: Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski's]] talk page. He continuingly kept on harassing Boris on his user page, even though he made it clear he was leaving. He considers this a personal attack. A minute later, he unblocks me, and reblocks me, this time for one month. I hadn't made a single contribution at the time. Then he proceeds on trying to get me banned, (which he has he done successfully). Within about 10 hours, I went from being blocked to a week to getting a permanent ban, without making a single comment. I was indefinitely blocked without being able to prove my case. Wikipedia should have rules in place which let blocked users comment on Admin Noticeboards if they are personally involved, otherwise it is a one sided affair. Then I get permanently banned by [[User: Ashibaka| Ashibaka]], and here we are.

Also, userboxes were removed from my user page. I think that Andrew Norman has gone too far. I think it's unfair having my user boxes deleted when other users support violent groups and such, while I support peace. I even had, "This user does not trust the American government" erased, I mean c'mon. I also find some people can get away with racist jokes....[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=58376028 as Norman does here]. Apparently the British still think we're their colony or something.

: "Racist jokes"? I was pointing out that you're a Canadian, yet you have only ever edited articles about the Balkans. I reblocked you for a month because I took a look at your long history of abusive behaviour and decided you needed a longer period. It should be obvious to you now that ''nobody cares''. There has been plenty of discussion on the admins' notice board, several other admins have looked at your case, and presumably checked your history, and nobody thinks you're worth unblocking. That's a community ban. Tough luck - if you'd been constructive in the past rather than just promoting Serb nationalism, you might have had a chance. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 07:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

: I've reviewed this indefinite block. It is the implementation of a community ban resulting from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=58267040#User:C-c-c-c this discussion]. I'll record the fact that you have apologised, but I don't think anyone should unblock without a review of the ban itself. I'll raise this on [[WP:AN]]. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 16:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

: See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=59129102&oldid=59123673 here]. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 16:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
::I'd like to point out that Andrew protected my user page without any explinations, which shows that this is not about breaking the rules, it's something else. C-c-c-c added a "Kosovo is Serbia" banner to my page, which I accepted, and only moved down to the bottom of my page. Andrew deleted this and protected my page. First of all, this is not Serbian nationalism, I just think that you guys think that every Serb is a nationalist, and everything Serbian is nationalistic. The last time I checked, Kosovo really was Serbia, and nothing else. If I wrote that "Vojvodina is Serbia" (Vojvodina is the second province of Serbia), would that be nationalistic? Would writing "California is the U.S.", be nationalistic? I have left Wikipedia, but the protection of my page is an insult to me, and I feel I've been kicked out, even though I decided to leave on my own. Please unprotect my page and reinstall the banner. Thank you. --[[User:Bormalagurski|Bormalagurski]] 21:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Odd, isn't it. Bormalagurski isn't currently blocked, C-c-c-c is. The above edit wasn't made by Bormalagurski (who knows very well why his userpage was protected), it was made by someone who was not logged on, and the only other edits from that IP address ([[Special:Contributions/70.79.13.144|70.79.13.144]]) have been "do my homework" requests earlier today to the Science reference desk (C-c-c-c's only non-Balkan edits were similar requests in the same place). There is probably some sockpuppetry or impersonation going on here, and I'll be making a RFCU request in the next few days to clarify this (and other related matters). --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 22:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
::::You're really out to get me aren't you. I've decided not to log in anymore after I left Wikipedia, and the "do my homework" edit, yes, I posted for C-c-c-c, because he asked me to (since he couldn't, remember, he's blocked) and he has exams coming up. Well I logged in now, but this is probably the last time, and definately the last time if you unprotect my page. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 22:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:C-c-c-c

2006-06-17T06:12:03Z

C-c-c-c: my case

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== Thanks for the Barnstar!!! ==

Although I'm getting a headache. I've got only ''one'' special and a '''four of a kind'''. :))) --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks C-c-c-c for the barnstar too. Cheers, --[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== Very Mad! :@ ==

Dude, I'm not 12. How many times must I tell you. Dude, CrnaGora@hotmail was already taken, so I picked CrnaGora12@hotmail because I couldn't pick which one to choose. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 03:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe you. Cheers. :) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

:Are you trying to annoy me, because you are getting on my nerves. Please, just leave me alone. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 20:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

I have blocked you for a month. You can use the time to think about your manners, [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 08:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

: I have also proposed on [[WP:AN]] that you be community-banned, given that this is your seventh block in a month for abuse, trolling, disruption and personal attacks. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 10:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, well then why don't you just quickly unblock and block me a dozen more times, and and then you can say it's 20.

:There are no objections to the community ban, so I blocked you indefinitely. Sorry. You may appeal this with {{tl|unblock}} if you have a legitimate problem. [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] [[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]] 20:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Unblock request==
{{unblock| I am really sorry for what could have been understood as a personal attack on ajn. I really didn't mean to offend you. I admit I was quite annoyed at the time because I thought people were paying too much attention to me but not to other users. After some time to reflect, I realized that my actions were not right and were getting me nowhere. I want to contribute to wikipedia and want a chance to clear my act. Thanks.}}
:You promise? If you violate this again you will be indef banned. Period. Is that clear? '''[[User:Sasquatch|Sasquatch]]''' [[User_talk:Sasquatch|t]]|[[Special:Contributions/Sasquatch|c]] 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I was busy lately. Yes, I promise not to make blatant personal attacks or to edit war again. But however, you must look at some thing. Unfortunately, Andrew Norman failed to contact any admins that blocked me or even look at the block summaries. For example I was given one block by [[User: Chris0| Chris0]] for 24 hours. He later unblocked me, and blocked me to decrease the same block to only 12 hours. Why does this count for two? [[User: Alai| Alai]] blocked me for sockpuppetry, and 3RR based on RCU, but this developed into nothing. I was accused of being the sock of a now departed user, [[User:Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski]] even though it was proven that me him were not the same person, and live over 2000km away. Then, [[User: Krytan| Krytan]], [[User: Estavisti| Estavisti]], [[User: Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski]], and I, where all being sockpuppets of one another, even though we live in 4 differen time zones and two countries. (This accusation was made by [[User: Ilir_pz| Ilir_pz]] but resulted in nothing once again. I must admit that the block by [[User:JoshuaZ| JoshuaZ]] was necessary as I had broken the 3RR rule.

User [[User: InShaneee| InShaneee]] blocked me for edit warring with another user, but did do anything to the other user, not even a warning was given. ([[User: Ferick|Ferick]]), has mysteriously disappeared since then). I received a week for this, and then I told InShanee to take a closer look at Ferick's edits, which consist of erasing factual information and labelling it all as Serb Propaganda. A day went by and InShanee did not comment on the situation. Then I told him if he did not act fairly, that I would have the opinion of him being a racist. InShanee exploded after this, and reblocked me again for personal attacks. I told him if he did the right thing, and monitored Ferick's contributions and at least gave him a warning, I wouldn't think such a thing of him. But he did not, and I was unimpressed with the lack of professionalism on his part as admins should be responsible and fair.

Afterwards, [[User: Andrew Norman| Andrew Norman]] blocks me for a week because of saying "Get a life" to him in [[User: Bormalagurski| Bormalagurski's]] talk page. He continuingly kept on harassing Boris on his user page, even though he made it clear he was leaving. He considers this a personal attack. A minute later, he unblocks me, and reblocks me, this time for one month. I hadn't made a single contribution at the time. Then he proceeds on trying to get me banned, (which he has he done successfully). Within about 10 hours, I went from being blocked to a week to getting a permanent ban, without making a single comment. I was indefinitely blocked without being able to prove my case. Wikipedia should have rules in place which let blocked users comment on Admin Noticeboards if they are personally involved, otherwise it is a one sided affair. Then I get permanently banned by [[User: Ashibaka| Ashibaka]], and here we are.

Also, userboxes were removed from my user page. I think that Andrew Norman has gone too far. I think it's unfair having my user boxes deleted when other users support violent groups and such, while I support peace. I even had, "This user does not trust the American government" erased, I mean c'mon. I also find some people can get away with racist jokes....[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=58376028 as Norman does here]. Apparently the British still think we're their colony or something.

:Difference: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=58267040#User:C-c-c-c]. '''[[User:Kilo-Lima/Esperanza|K]]'''[[User:Kilo-Lima|ilo-Lima]]|[[User talk:Kilo-Lima|(talk)]] 18:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:C-c-c-c

2006-06-13T22:57:54Z

C-c-c-c:

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{{unblock| I am really sorry for what could have been understood as a personal attack on ajn. I really didn't mean to offend you. I admit I was quite annoyed at the time because I thought people were paying too much attention to me but not to other users. After some time to reflect, I realized that my actions were not right and were getting me nowhere. I want to contribute to wikipedia and want a chance to clear my act. Thanks.}}
== Thanks for the Barnstar!!! ==

Although I'm getting a headache. I've got only ''one'' special and a '''four of a kind'''. :))) --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks C-c-c-c for the barnstar too. Cheers, --[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== Very Mad! :@ ==

Dude, I'm not 12. How many times must I tell you. Dude, CrnaGora@hotmail was already taken, so I picked CrnaGora12@hotmail because I couldn't pick which one to choose. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 03:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe you. Cheers. :) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

:Are you trying to annoy me, because you are getting on my nerves. Please, just leave me alone. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 20:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

I have blocked you for a month. You can use the time to think about your manners, [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 08:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

: I have also proposed on [[WP:AN]] that you be community-banned, given that this is your seventh block in a month for abuse, trolling, disruption and personal attacks. --[[User:Andrew Norman|ajn]] ([[User talk:Andrew Norman|talk]]) 10:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, well then why don't you just quickly unblock and block me a dozen more times, and and then you can say it's 20.

:There are no objections to the community ban, so I blocked you indefinitely. Sorry. You may appeal this with {{tl|unblock}} if you have a legitimate problem. [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] [[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]] 20:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:C-c-c-c

2006-06-12T12:51:04Z

C-c-c-c: /* Blocked */

Skadarska Krajina

2006-06-12T05:10:39Z

C-c-c-c:

{{confusing}}

'''Krajina''' (Serbian: Krajina, Albanian: Krajë/Kraja) is an area in southern [[Montenegro]] stretching among southern coast of [[Lake Skadar]] to the mountain of [[Rumija]], comprising several villages. It is inhabited mainly with [[Albanians]], which make around 98% of population. The area is divided between municipalities of [[Bar, Montenegro|Bar]] and [[Ulcinj]].

[[Image:Kraja_Image-11.jpg |thumb|right|200px|Rruga Madgushit [[Madgushit]] [[in Krajina]]]]

== Geography and tourism ==
The town is located near the border with Albania on the coast of the Adriatic Sea. It is located Between Crmnica and Ana e Malit and stretches out from Skje to Shestan, its border villages. It is also between Shkodër Lake and Rumija Mountains. It mainly consists of villages with Ostros being its most populated. Tho threw out the years mostly from Late 1960's to Early 70's a big migration occurred with many Albanians leaving there villages in hope of finding jobs and better surroundings for there children to grow up in. Many fled to Germany, France, Switzerland, Australia, USA and even neighboring BAR and ULQIN. Although there is no exact number of the people that still live in Krajina it is said to be in the 2,000-3,000 range.

== Tourism ==
'''Commune of BAR/TIVAR'''


Between the Adriatic sea and the Shkodër/Skadar lake, extends the commune of Bar/Tivar. This commune includes the bay of Bar/Tivar (principal places: Bar/Tivar, Stari-Bar/Tivar-i-Vjetër, Sutomore), territories of Krajina/Krajë (principal places: Ostros, Šestan/Shestan, Shkodër/Skadar lake), Mrkojevići (principal places: Dobra-Voda, Pečurice) and Crmnica/Crmnicë (principal place: Virpazar), as well as the pocket of Čanj (which acts as buffer zone between the areas of Bar/Tivar and Budva/Budvë). And it is between the Adriatic sea and the mountains of Rumija/Rumi that the city of Bar/Tivar is divided into 2 districts: Novi-Bar/Tivar-i-Ri (capital of the commune) at the edge of the sea, and Stari-Bar/Tivar-i-Vjetër with the low part of Rumija/Rumi with 4km of sea. Bar/Tivar, which is also the city of the olive-trees and the olive oil producers, can be praised to have an olive-tree with more than 2.000 years!

'''Commune of ULQINJ/ULQIN'''

Between the commune of Bar/Tivar and the state of Albania, there is the commune of Ulcinj/Ulqin. This commune includes the riviera of Ulcinj/Ulqin (principal places: Ulcinj/Ulqin, Velika-Plaža/Plazh-i-Madhë, Ada-Bojana/Adë-Bunë) and the territory of Vladimir/Anamalit (principal places: Vladimir/Katërkollë, Šas/Shas lake). Nature gives Ulcinj/Ulqin, a magic charm and exceptional traditions, with an extent of thin sand (16km) which the most famous beach is the Great Beach (13km length). Ulcinj/Ulqin, which is also the most exotic place of Montenegro, can be praised to exist for more than 2.500 years!

== Villages, Families ==

Families List of Krajina/Krajë in each village (from Utić/Hutaj to Vučedabići/Uçdabaj) :

'''District of South KRAJINA/KRAJA '''

Bljaca/Blac = Demirović/Demiraj, Đonović/Gjonaj

BOBOVIŠTE/BOBOSHT = Aručević/Aruçaj, Duraković/Duraku, Đonović/Gjonaj, Hajdarević/Hajdari, Ljiharević/Lihari, Ljiković/Likaj, Subašić/Subashaj, Tafović/Tafaj

Dragovići/Dragoviq =

Grdoči/Gërdoç =

Kostanica/Keshtenj = Bardić/Bardhi, Čobović/Çobaj, Kolić/Koliqi, Vuković/Vukaj

Madguš/Madgush = Bibović/Bibaj, Perezić/Perezaj, Tulović/Tullaj

TEJANI/FTJAN = Bogdanović/Bogdani, Cenović/Cenaj, Đinović/Gjinaj, Ftejović/Fteja, Mujović/Mujaj, Mustafić/Mustafaj, Mustafić-Hodžić/Mustafaj-Hoxhaj, Pepđonović/Pepgjonaj

Vrlići/Vërliq = Ceković/Ceka, Hadžimuratović/Haxhimurati, Nikezić/Nikezaj, Subrahimović/Subrahimi

----

'''zone of ARBNEŽ/ARBNËSH'''

familials hamlets = Dodić/Dodaj, Đeđbritić/Gjegjbritaj, Đenčić/Gjençiq, Kovačević/Kovaçi, Ljekperić/Lekperaj, Popović/Priftaj

----

'''zone of CKLA/SKJE'''

familials hamlets = Demirović/Demiraj, Ljubanović/Lubanaj, Perović/Peraj, Utić/Hutaj

----

'''zone of MARTIĆI/MARTIQ '''

familials hamlets = Kacić/Kacaj, Ramušević/Ramushaj

hamlet of Ćurjan/Qyrjan = Alović/Allaj, Cejović/Ceja, Hodžić/Hoxhaj, Mujezić/Mujezaj

hamlet of Runja/Ronj = Canović/Canaj, Marković/Markaj, Seniković/Senikaj

hamlet of Sjerč/Sjerç = Husić/Husiqi
----

'''zone of OSTROS (mali/vogël & veliki/madhë)'''

familials hamlets = Berjašević/Berjashi, Boljević/Bolaj, Cuković/Cukaj, Curović/Curaj, Đenašević/Gjenashi, Kanačević/Kanaqi, Madžurić/Maxhuraj, Markašević/Markashi, Perašević/Perashi

hamlet of Hardaj = Ardolić/Ardolli, Cejović/Ceja, Maršić/Marshiqi, Redžović/Rexhaj

----

'''District of North KRAJINA/KRAJA'''

Bapsula/Bapsull = Velović/Vellaj

Besa/Besë = Džeferović/Xheferi, Hasanović/Hasanaj

Briska/Brisk (donja/poshtë & gornja/naltë) = Marsenović/Marsenaj, Mehović/Mehaj, Musović/Musaj, Đelović/Gjelaj, Pema/?

Dobreci/? = Juncaj/Junkovic, Dabovic/Dabaj

LIVARI/LJARË = Dabović/Dabaj, Junković/Juncaj, Kolar/Kollari, Markolović/Markalaj, Metović/Metaj, Pavlović/Pavlli, Pekić/Pekaj, Tagić/Tagaj

Murići/Muriq (donja/poshtë & gornja/naltë) = Alibašić/Alibashaj, Hodžić/Hoxhaj, Muratović/Murati, Paljević/Palaj, Selmanović/Selmanaj, Velović/Vellaj

Pinčići/Pinç = Bracić/Bracaj, Čobrenović/Çobrenaj, Đurović/Gjuraj, Lukić/Lukaj, Maljević/Malaj, Marinović/Marinaj, Pavlović/Pavlli, Vučetić/Vuçetaj

Rjepsa/Rjepsë = Đokić/Gjokaj, Lukić/Lukaj, Marinović/Marinaj
----

'''zone of ŠESTAN/SHESTAN : '''

Bardići/Bardhaj = Bardić/Bardhi

Dedići/Dedaj = Dedić/Dedaj

Dračevica/Pecaj = Nikpalić/Nikpalaj, Maljević/Malaj, Pekić/Pekaj, Polić/Pollaj, Savić/Savaj, Unkašić/Unkashaj

Đuravci/Gjuraç = Čelić/Çelaj, Đurović/Gjuraj, Maljević/Malaj, Savić/Savaj

Gurza/Gurrë i Zi =

Karanikići/Nrekaj = Durić/Duraj, Lulić/Lulaj, Lukolić/Lukolaj, Marđonić/Margjonaj, Perkolić/Perkolaj, Stanković/Stankaj

Lukići/Lukaj = Lukić/Lukaj

Marstijepovići/Bujgër = Marstjepović/Marstjepaj, Stanković/Stankaj

Marvučići/? =

Podvrat/? =

Vučedabići/Uçdabaj = Davidović/Davidaj, Nikić/Nikaj, Premić/Premaj

----

== Demographics ==

Ethnicity:

Albanians (98.00%),
Montenegrin, Muslims by nationality (2.00%)

Religion:

Muslim (90.00%),
Orthodox christian, Catholic (10.00%)

The Orthodox & Catholic's were mostly in the Shestan Region, Traces can also be found in Ljarë, Brisk & Ftjan.

== Culture, Costume's ==
[[Image:08b.jpg |thumb|right|200px|Shestan Costume[[Shestan Man From Ljare]] [[1929]]]]

Shestanit Coustume '''Kola i Pjetrit Dod's (1894-1952)''' LJARË 1929
:


== Links ==
Website with pictures for Krajina, Anamalit, Ulqin, Mrkotë, Tivar :
[http://rumiland.free.fr/ Rumiland]

== See also ==
[[Albanians in Montenegro]]

[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Montenegro]]

Talk:Skadarska Krajina

2006-06-12T05:08:51Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Kraja to Talk:Krajina (town): English name

==Contributions==
This Page was made by Ismet Kollari, March 15th 2006, New York. If you would like to ADD any pictures, Family names, Villages...etc please contact me at [email protected]

::Ismet, I thank you for your contribution here in Wikipedia. Anyone is free to add pictures and text here, so sorry to let you know that you are not the only one responsible, even if you founded this page. Feel free to contribute with more. I would do the same, if I had any info. I advise you to remove your email here, though, as you may get spammed. Greetings, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

==Confusing==
Like I said, I was under impression that this article is about fictive Albanian republic in southern Montenegro, rather than about a village/area in Ulcinj municipality whose existence I can't even verify by Google. When I found [http://krajaweb.online.fr/ http://krajaweb.online.fr/], it is still unclear. Is it Albanian term for Southern Montenegro or what? Could someone at least get the facts straight? Thanks. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 10:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::It is a rather new article, Duja. Hence, it is a bit confusing as of now. Hopefully those with more knowledge on it they will improve it. I know that is not an Albanian term for Southern Montenegro. It is a small town, only. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Look, I don't have anything against describing more about Albanian population in Montenegro, but I don't think that village of Kraje even exists as such. Do you see anything resembling it in the [http://www.jazztour.ru/images/montenegro/montenegro_map_new.jpg map]? Apart from Wikipedia and its mirrors and krajaweb.online.fr, it seems to have zero Google hits (hard to tell as "Ulcinj Kraja" gives many Serbian words "kraja" within, but it's not on first 5 pages), and the name ("Krajina") is suspicious as well.[[User:Duja|Duja]] 10:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::Maybe you can email the guy who created it at first. He seems to be from that town. I haven't been to this location, but I have heard of it, and I thought it exists somewhere close to Ulqin. Yes, "Krajina" name sounded weird to me, but maybe he did not mean it to sound like "Srpska Krajina" or something. My guess is, it might be too small a town to be registered in the map. Or maybe it is a small village, and not a town. I really do not know more. I will ask around. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

(moved from the main page)
This page was made by Ismet Kollari March 15th 2006, If you would like to add anything please contact [email protected]

Im unsure why this is an issue? this is an article i put up about my backround and i collected all the information i could to do it. Why is this an issue if i stamp my signature on it? I did all the work and put it up, why would complain about me putting a stamp on my work? does this affect you in any way? i dont think so. Its not a big deal -
Ljare
::You can sign your contributions, by registering with an account, and editing once you logged in. Then it will be clear who edited what. Please ask for help if you need any, would gladly help. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:It is a big deal. This is not a free web space site, but an free encyclopedia, where all contributors are supposed to colaborate, and release their right under [[GNU Free Documentation License]]. And it has its policies and guidelines. No one signs the articles here, so you shouldn't either. See [[WP:OWN]] and [[WP:NOT]]. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 09:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:You still did not address the issues I raised above—who had pronounced that Kraja is "a town and municipality", where it is located on the [http://www.jazztour.ru/images/montenegro/montenegro_map_new.jpg map], and in which sense it even exists. I'm inclined to merge this article into [[Albanians in Montenegro]], but I want to be fair and provide you a chance to clarify what was the intent. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 09:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

A Big Deal? Are you serious? how old are you like 35 and you actully think this is a big deal? All i am trying to do is put up some information about MY culture, I do not have to be questioned by you. Why are you even looking at this page? are you even Albanian? Listen this is something i choose to do and i want to leave it how it is why are you interfearing? This has nothing to do with you.

P.S Montenegro is no longer (AND NEVER WAS PART OF SERBIA!). So please stick to correcting articles from serbia.

** Kinda contradictory don't you think? "No longer", but "never was"? :) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:Articles here don't have owners – see the [[WP:OWN|policy]]. This site has certain rules. We are all free to edit whatever we want, but we have to obey the policies, which include [[WP:V|verifiability]] and [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] among other things. This is not a free web space where anyone can put anything he likes—it is meant to be used for reference by people other than ourselves. It '''does''' have to do it with me like any other article (as it does have with you). I am '''very''' concerned, not because I'm a Serb or something, but because I want this encyclopedia to be trustable and accurate, that you have put factually incorrect information. I requested that you (or anyone else) clarify how is Kraja "a town and municipality" and where is it located on the map. I'm still waiting for the answer. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 14:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Number 1 you are not waiting for answer's because if this is a free encylopedia this is pubic to EVERYONE no one has to answer you. I already attempted to Clarify that KRAJA is a DIVISION of BAR (TIVARI) that once belonged to albania [[Treaty of Berlin, 1878]]. This is absouluty ridiculous I know my facts you have no knowledge on this topic once so ever, I know you would love to say that this is a part of Serbia but its not its a part of Montenegro and will one day be part of Albania again. So please refrain.-Ismet Kollari

:: "Pubic to everyone?" Sounds like a Clintonian Slip:P[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:So, since I'm a Serb, I'm by default an enemy and a hegemonist? I'm afraid that tells more about your state of mind than about myself. Good bye. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 17:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Mr. Kollari, please consider explaining this information, and providing any source that you have, without judging users about their orientation: nationalistic, hegemonistic, and such. And yes, it is advisable that you read the policies, and not claim to own the article. Also putting your email might create spam in your mailbox. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
:::I want to make a fair proposal: let's merge valuable contents of this page to [[Albanians in Montenegro]]. I'm not familiar with the area, but even the usage of word "Kraja" sounds suspicious — do Albanians there ''really'' call the area like that, or is that some kind of irredentism like [[Republic of Serbian Krajina]] was at the time?
:::As for the hints to revisionism in this article and article [[Tuzi]]: [[Albanians in Montenegro#History]] section is currently empty. You're welcome to explain there what happened in [[Berlin Congress]] 1878 and [[Treaty of London, 1913]] and how and why the Albanian population of the area ended up from this side of the border, instead of linking to external sites of dubious credibility. I'd like to read more about that myself. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 11:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::No, Duja, I do not think this article should be merged with [[Albanians in Montenegro]] article, because this is a description of a geographic area, which is not at all of any irredentism in nature. I knew that you would suspect it being so, because of the translation in Serbian "Krajina". I agree that parts on the History of Albanians in Montenegro should be clarified. I will try to edit that part soon, and I would also like to read about that myself. Let me know if you find any (credible and not one-sided) sources on that. TTYL.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 14:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
:::I won't persist on deletion, but no evidence whatsoever was presented about existence of that geographic area. I mean, the area obviously does exist, but no credible source was cited that it's really called like that. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 15:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::maybe it is better to wait/search~/request for credible sources on this geographic area, then just delete it. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 16:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Look, Like I said there is no better way to explain it but like this. Kraja (NOT Krajina)is a DIVISON of BAR (ANTIVARI)As Albanians we call it Kraje and refer ourselves as Krajan's. Let me give you an example :
AMERICA= MONTENEGRO
NEW YORK= TIVAR
STATEN ISLAND= KRAJA
Im trying to explain to you that KRAJA is a DIVISION of BAR similar to Ana e Malit and Zogaj. If you cannot understand it now, I think you may need to further your education by going back to school. There is no reason this article should be colaborated with Albanians in Montenegero (It can be Linked thats ok) But it shouldnt be mixed up with any other article's. Listen There are aticle's on wikipedia that are on for no reason about stuff people dont care about, This article that i put up is not hurting anyone and all the information is accurate its not like I am bashing anyone or saying KRAJA is superior to other parts of Montenegro. Honestly i really want to agree and fix the page and update it. If your not going to alow me to do this then i just have to work around it and make more pages about similar article's and about the same exact exact info. But what is still pondering in my head is that why on earth If you live in (Novi Sad, SERBIA) why do you care about KRAJA?

Here is proff that these albanian communities exist in Montenegro

http://www.aacl.com/Montenegro_Apartheid_State_In_Europe.htm

http://lantos.house.gov/HoR/CA12/Human+Rights+Caucus/Briefing+Testimonies/Shirley+A+Cloyes.htm

http://www.aacl.com/reflecting_on_the_history_eng.htm

http://www.aacl.com/Flag%20Day-E.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Albanian_Vilayets_of_Ottoman_Empire.jpg

( Look at this map of Montenegro, Look at the Rumija section near Shkoder lake, This is were Kraja-Shestan lies. Livari, Bobosht, Arbnez all Villages of KRAJA!)

http://www.jazztour.ru/images/montenegro/montenegro_map_new.jpg
:

Have Fun doing all this Homework.

-Ismet Kollari

:I care about an Albanian propagandist site as much as I care about Serbian propagandist sites. You provided a nice collection of links irrelevant to the subject of the area, and related with [[Albanians in Montenegro#History]] and [[History of Montenegro]]. None of the above links mention "Kraja" I found the map about Kraja you refer to myself, as well as [http://freeweb.kraja.fr freeweb.kraja.fr].
:Should I analyse the article section by section? Here we go:
:*'''mainly Albanian inhabited coastal town and municipality'''. These words stand here since article creation on March 16. It is obviously not a town, and even less a municipality. If you intended to fix them, you had three months to done so.
:Now, let's stick to the data from [http://rumiland.free.fr rumiland.free.fr]. It says on the first page that:
::''Officially, "Rumiland" is an area which does not exist. ... you will not find it on any map (;D). It is a personal invention...''
:Is that web site yours or...?
:*'''Tourism''': This section is a [http://rumiland.free.fr/2tourist.htm verbatim copy] from Rumiland web site. It refers to Tourism of above-mentioned imaginary Rumiland. According to [[WP:COPY]], you must either supply explicit owner's permission to use the text on Wikipedia or prove that you wrote it yourself (ditto for pictures). In either case, the info is irrelevant, because...
:*'''Location''': The [http://rumiland.free.fr/1maps_photos.htm map] (so far the only relevant proof) shows that Kraja is actually the area along southern coast of Skadar lake (stretching accross municipalities of Bar and Ulcinj). '''Why''' does not the article mention that in a clear way? When I have put the {{tl|confusing}} tag, I put it because I was ''confused'', not because I wanted your work deleted. Instead of clearing things up, you kept on deleting the tags and accusing me.
:*'''Villages, families'''. [http://rumiland.free.fr/3clans.htm verbatim copy] from Rumiland web site.
:In summary: the article has the following problems:
:*'''Scope'''. If you want to write about Kraja, write about Kraja. Don't write about semi-imaginary Rumiland and tourism in Ulcinj. The place for that is article [[Ulcinj]]. If you want to write about bad things that happened in history, there are relevant articles I pointed above.
:*'''Copyright'''. Like I said, you cannot use the verbatim copy or pictures from other web sites without owner's permission. It must be rewritten, or, If you're the owner or have his written permission, the notice should be put at the bottom of the article ({{tl|Confirmation}}). The procedure is explained [[WP:BRP|here]].
:If I wanted to delete this article, I would have vandalized it or [[WP:AFD|proposed for deletion]]. Instead, I wanted to give you a chance to improve it, and you resorted to [[WP:NPA|personall attacks]] just because of my ethnicity, and refused to address the issues I raised.
:I will request the protection to be lifted, but you ought to address the issues above. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 08:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok i appricate that you will have it lifted, But your trying to say Kraja is not a real place, and i already told you it is a division of BAR. There is no reason i am making this up this is a place where i am from. Look i want to try to work together and get this up, I can give you a perfect example. KRAJA is a TOWN exactly like [[Tuzi|Tuzi]]. I am a first time user of wikipedia so mabey i didnt follow the rules (Did'nt know how to follow all the rules). But im not here to make personal attacts just i thought comming from a serb be so interested in an albanian community and telling me it wasnt "REAL" was just a little odd. Look the best way i can describe is is look at [[Tuzi|Tuzi]] Kraja is the same exact kind of town.
:Sorry that unprotection takes a while -- I'm working on it with the admins. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 07:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

== Protected ==

The article has now been protected to prevent edit-warring. Please use the talk page to discuss changes, and once you have reached an agreement, please drop a note on my talk page or request unprotection. Note that the protected version is not an endorsement of the current version. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 11:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
:Can this article be removed from [[:Category:Cities in Serbia and Montenegro]]? [[User:Conscious|Conscious]] 09:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
::As soon as it's unprotected :-D. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 10:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Or earlier, if there's a consensus on this matter. [[User:Conscious|Conscious]] 10:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

::Serbia and Montenegro does not exist, Conscious. This should be included in the cities of Montenegro. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

== Unprotected ==

Let's give it a try. If it needs to be protected again, let me know, or post a [[WP:RPP|request for protection]]. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 20:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Skadarska Krajina

2006-06-12T05:08:51Z

C-c-c-c: moved Kraja to Krajina (town): English name

{{confusing}}

'''Kraja''' (Serbian: Krajina, Albanian: Krajë/Kraja) is an area in southern [[Montenegro]] stretching among southern coast of [[Lake Skadar]] to the mountain of [[Rumija]], comprising several villages. It is inhabited mainly with [[Albanians]], which make around 98% of population. The area is divided between municipalities of [[Bar, Montenegro|Bar]] and [[Ulcinj]].

[[Image:Kraja_Image-11.jpg |thumb|right|200px|Rruga Madgushit [[Madgushit]] [[in Kraja]]]]

== Geography and tourism ==
The town is located near the border with Albania on the coast of the Adriatic Sea. It is located Between Crmnica and Ana e Malit and stretches out from Skje to Shestan, its border villages. It is also between Shkodër Lake and Rumija Mountains. It mainly consists of villages with Ostros being its most populated. Tho threw out the years mostly from Late 1960's to Early 70's a big migration occurred with many Albanians leaving there villages in hope of finding jobs and better surroundings for there children to grow up in. Many fled to Germany, France, Switzerland, Australia, USA and even neighboring BAR and ULQIN. Although there is no exact number of the people that still live in Krajë it is said to be in the 2,000-3,000 range.

== Tourism ==
'''Commune of BAR/TIVAR'''


Between the Adriatic sea and the Shkodër/Skadar lake, extends the commune of Bar/Tivar. This commune includes the bay of Bar/Tivar (principal places: Bar/Tivar, Stari-Bar/Tivar-i-Vjetër, Sutomore), territories of Krajina/Krajë (principal places: Ostros, Šestan/Shestan, Shkodër/Skadar lake), Mrkojevići (principal places: Dobra-Voda, Pečurice) and Crmnica/Crmnicë (principal place: Virpazar), as well as the pocket of Čanj (which acts as buffer zone between the areas of Bar/Tivar and Budva/Budvë). And it is between the Adriatic sea and the mountains of Rumija/Rumi that the city of Bar/Tivar is divided into 2 districts: Novi-Bar/Tivar-i-Ri (capital of the commune) at the edge of the sea, and Stari-Bar/Tivar-i-Vjetër with the low part of Rumija/Rumi with 4km of sea. Bar/Tivar, which is also the city of the olive-trees and the olive oil producers, can be praised to have an olive-tree with more than 2.000 years!

'''Commune of ULQINJ/ULQIN'''

Between the commune of Bar/Tivar and the state of Albania, there is the commune of Ulcinj/Ulqin. This commune includes the riviera of Ulcinj/Ulqin (principal places: Ulcinj/Ulqin, Velika-Plaža/Plazh-i-Madhë, Ada-Bojana/Adë-Bunë) and the territory of Vladimir/Anamalit (principal places: Vladimir/Katërkollë, Šas/Shas lake). Nature gives Ulcinj/Ulqin, a magic charm and exceptional traditions, with an extent of thin sand (16km) which the most famous beach is the Great Beach (13km length). Ulcinj/Ulqin, which is also the most exotic place of Montenegro, can be praised to exist for more than 2.500 years!

== Villages, Families ==

Families List of Krajina/Krajë in each village (from Utić/Hutaj to Vučedabići/Uçdabaj) :

'''District of South KRAJINA/KRAJA '''

Bljaca/Blac = Demirović/Demiraj, Đonović/Gjonaj

BOBOVIŠTE/BOBOSHT = Aručević/Aruçaj, Duraković/Duraku, Đonović/Gjonaj, Hajdarević/Hajdari, Ljiharević/Lihari, Ljiković/Likaj, Subašić/Subashaj, Tafović/Tafaj

Dragovići/Dragoviq =

Grdoči/Gërdoç =

Kostanica/Keshtenj = Bardić/Bardhi, Čobović/Çobaj, Kolić/Koliqi, Vuković/Vukaj

Madguš/Madgush = Bibović/Bibaj, Perezić/Perezaj, Tulović/Tullaj

TEJANI/FTJAN = Bogdanović/Bogdani, Cenović/Cenaj, Đinović/Gjinaj, Ftejović/Fteja, Mujović/Mujaj, Mustafić/Mustafaj, Mustafić-Hodžić/Mustafaj-Hoxhaj, Pepđonović/Pepgjonaj

Vrlići/Vërliq = Ceković/Ceka, Hadžimuratović/Haxhimurati, Nikezić/Nikezaj, Subrahimović/Subrahimi

----

'''zone of ARBNEŽ/ARBNËSH'''

familials hamlets = Dodić/Dodaj, Đeđbritić/Gjegjbritaj, Đenčić/Gjençiq, Kovačević/Kovaçi, Ljekperić/Lekperaj, Popović/Priftaj

----

'''zone of CKLA/SKJE'''

familials hamlets = Demirović/Demiraj, Ljubanović/Lubanaj, Perović/Peraj, Utić/Hutaj

----

'''zone of MARTIĆI/MARTIQ '''

familials hamlets = Kacić/Kacaj, Ramušević/Ramushaj

hamlet of Ćurjan/Qyrjan = Alović/Allaj, Cejović/Ceja, Hodžić/Hoxhaj, Mujezić/Mujezaj

hamlet of Runja/Ronj = Canović/Canaj, Marković/Markaj, Seniković/Senikaj

hamlet of Sjerč/Sjerç = Husić/Husiqi
----

'''zone of OSTROS (mali/vogël & veliki/madhë)'''

familials hamlets = Berjašević/Berjashi, Boljević/Bolaj, Cuković/Cukaj, Curović/Curaj, Đenašević/Gjenashi, Kanačević/Kanaqi, Madžurić/Maxhuraj, Markašević/Markashi, Perašević/Perashi

hamlet of Hardaj = Ardolić/Ardolli, Cejović/Ceja, Maršić/Marshiqi, Redžović/Rexhaj

----

'''District of North KRAJINA/KRAJA'''

Bapsula/Bapsull = Velović/Vellaj

Besa/Besë = Džeferović/Xheferi, Hasanović/Hasanaj

Briska/Brisk (donja/poshtë & gornja/naltë) = Marsenović/Marsenaj, Mehović/Mehaj, Musović/Musaj, Đelović/Gjelaj, Pema/?

Dobreci/? = Juncaj/Junkovic, Dabovic/Dabaj

LIVARI/LJARË = Dabović/Dabaj, Junković/Juncaj, Kolar/Kollari, Markolović/Markalaj, Metović/Metaj, Pavlović/Pavlli, Pekić/Pekaj, Tagić/Tagaj

Murići/Muriq (donja/poshtë & gornja/naltë) = Alibašić/Alibashaj, Hodžić/Hoxhaj, Muratović/Murati, Paljević/Palaj, Selmanović/Selmanaj, Velović/Vellaj

Pinčići/Pinç = Bracić/Bracaj, Čobrenović/Çobrenaj, Đurović/Gjuraj, Lukić/Lukaj, Maljević/Malaj, Marinović/Marinaj, Pavlović/Pavlli, Vučetić/Vuçetaj

Rjepsa/Rjepsë = Đokić/Gjokaj, Lukić/Lukaj, Marinović/Marinaj
----

'''zone of ŠESTAN/SHESTAN : '''

Bardići/Bardhaj = Bardić/Bardhi

Dedići/Dedaj = Dedić/Dedaj

Dračevica/Pecaj = Nikpalić/Nikpalaj, Maljević/Malaj, Pekić/Pekaj, Polić/Pollaj, Savić/Savaj, Unkašić/Unkashaj

Đuravci/Gjuraç = Čelić/Çelaj, Đurović/Gjuraj, Maljević/Malaj, Savić/Savaj

Gurza/Gurrë i Zi =

Karanikići/Nrekaj = Durić/Duraj, Lulić/Lulaj, Lukolić/Lukolaj, Marđonić/Margjonaj, Perkolić/Perkolaj, Stanković/Stankaj

Lukići/Lukaj = Lukić/Lukaj

Marstijepovići/Bujgër = Marstjepović/Marstjepaj, Stanković/Stankaj

Marvučići/? =

Podvrat/? =

Vučedabići/Uçdabaj = Davidović/Davidaj, Nikić/Nikaj, Premić/Premaj

----

== Demographics ==

Ethnicity:

Albanians (98.00%),
Montenegrin, Muslims by nationality (2.00%)

Religion:

Muslim (90.00%),
Orthodox christian, Catholic (10.00%)

The Orthodox & Catholic's were mostly in the Shestan Region, Traces can also be found in Ljarë, Brisk & Ftjan.

== Culture, Costume's ==
[[Image:08b.jpg |thumb|right|200px|Shestan Costume[[Shestan Man From Ljare]] [[1929]]]]

Shestanit Coustume '''Kola i Pjetrit Dod's (1894-1952)''' LJARË 1929
:


== Links ==
Website with pictures for Kraja, Anamalit, Ulqin, Mrkotë, Tivar :
[http://rumiland.free.fr/ Rumiland]

== See also ==
[[Albanians in Montenegro]]

[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Montenegro]]

User talk:Ilir pz

2006-06-12T02:20:11Z

C-c-c-c: Albright

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!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]] [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
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# [[User_talk:Ilir pz/Archive1|March 10, 2006 - May 1, 2006]]
# [[User_talk:Ilir pz/Archive2|May 1, 2006 - May 25, 2006]]
# [[User_talk:Ilir pz|May 26, 2006 - ]]

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'''NOTE''': Please add what you want to discuss with me in the bottom of the page, if it is not a part of an already on-going discussion. And of course, sign it using 4 "~" to make it easier for me to reach you and respond.

== Kosovo/Racak ==

I inserted "allegedly" into your edits of the Kosovo page regarding Racak. Categorically stating that it was a deliberate massacre basically means that you dispute or ignore a good deal of what's being discussed on the dedicated [[Racak incident]] page without proper discussion. As your sources don't add any new findings, I see no justification for this. [[User:Poxy|Poxy]] 21:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Again: you are basically invalidating half of the (rather elaborate) Racak incident page simply by throwing in two (fairly dated and not particularly detailed) articles for reference, none of which add anything new. As a compromise to maintain NPOV, I suggest to replace "allegedly" with something to the effect of "generally regarded as", "widely claimed to be". Or you may want to update the Racak incident page accordingly and explain why the "other point of view" is debunked, so that things are consistent at least. [[User:Poxy|Poxy]] 22:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"In the original article on Racak incident it clearly states "Outside Yugoslavia, the deaths were widely blamed on the actions of the Yugoslav security forces, which were accused of having committed a deliberate massacre." . Where is the inconsistency with what I said and provided sources for?"

:C'mon. The phrases "were widely blamed", "were accused of" are quite different in style and meaning from a definite verdict stating "were executed by", as should be obvious to anyone with basic command of the English language. If you believe such cautionary language is uncalled for because, as you claim, everything has been settled and proven anyway, then go ahead and change the Racak incident page accordingly (note that that page does not state only Yugoslav sources for the "other POV"). But then, you'd want to provide a comprehensive and recent source that takes all the mentioned issues into account and provides new insight. Right now, you selectively took two non-recent random sources (the content of which has been incorporated in the dedicated page) and use that to simply blank out other things on that page that do not conform to your preferred POV. I call that bad form. [[User:Poxy|Poxy]] 22:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
::How recent do you want sources to be? The investigation has taken place when the sources were written. This investigation is not on top news today, because it is finished. With my limited knowledge of English I can distinguish between the meaning of the phrases you mentioned, but the one I stated fits the results of the independent investigations, and OSCE findings in the terrain. The head of that OSCE mission himself called it as such, let alone the rest who clearly noticed that shots were fired from a close distanc, and the killed ones were civillians. I select sources, indeed, because I try to not use Albanian or Yugoslav sources. That is what [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources]] is about, and what I attempt to achieve with my edits in Wikiepedia. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore using the phrases you proposed just attempts to put cover on the facts on the ground, and are characterized as [[Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words|weasel words]], to create an illusion that they are more neutral, but in fact serve a different purpose[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

== IF ==
:anyone wonders why I disregard their sources of information, refer to this [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources]]. I strictly follow this, when doing that. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 08:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

== Your attempt didn't go unnoticed ==

Interesting Ilir....really interesting, I knew you'd do it. 22:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

::do what? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

== Reply ==

(regarding your post about my explaination on the Montenegrin issue).

:::That's the main reason why many Serbs in Montenegro have voted FOR independence - the Montenegrin authorities said that they will draft a Constitution '''WHEN''' Montenegro becomes independent - a good chance for the Serbs to become a constituent nation. However - this is an issue: most Montenegrins do not want to constitutionalize Montenegrins and Serbs as two independent nations in Montenegro. ANd for the Serb side - every Serbian politician must get 36,000 votes to get into the government - while every Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosniak/Moslem and Albanian needs 12,000 - that's that ''Constitutionality'' issue (no wonder the government is slightly anti-Serbian nowdays). Get the problem now?

::::P. S. Hey, does this mean that you will no longer read it up? ;( --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 22:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:: I read your stuff up. Don't worry. I did not erase the content.Sorry, I had to archive, my talk page got too long, and kept complaining. :). The reason I did that now was because date changed now in the region I am in :). I understand it a bit better now...the constitutional stuff. Gotta go now, g'night. Talk soon.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Comparison with Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herzeg-Bosnia lies simply in the fact that both of the states' peoples were opressed - the fullscale state infrastructure (even on a more organized basis than on Kosovo) was created and the states even achieved some recognition in the world, after they '''''declared indpendence'''''. However, they were '''''not''''' independent, because BiH didn't recognize them, nor did they achieve international recognition. Understand me now? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think comparing Kosovo and BiH is a wrong thing to do. Kosovo's war and BiH war were different in nature, nations involved, reasons, results, origin..So not a good comparison. Kosovo existed far a long time before any such self-declared-and-gained-during-a-bloody-war republics you are mentioning. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree - however, neither did Kosovo exist as a Republic. You see, there was this big issue in 1944 - the issue of Serbs in Croatia and Albanians in Serbia. Autonomy - or full constitutionality. At the end, it was decided that territorial political autonomy is to be given to the Serbian Albanians due to the fact that they live mostly in the plains of Kosovo, Metohija and the Presevo valley. While the Serbs of Croatia - living virtually all around it, and demanding a total of '''''three''''' autonomous regions if autonomy was to be decided - were given equal rights and Croatia made a Serbian state as much as Croatian. Now, claiming that it's unconnective is slightly insultive to all those Partisans that conveined for months just to solve this issue. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 10:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::Comparing the existance of Kosovo with existence of several self-proclaimed republics in BiH is also a very bad mistake. Kosovo was a constitutive element of the Federation of Yug, without the consent of which no Federal-level laws could be passed. Remember? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Also - in BiH - nations involved? Orthodox Christian (and perhaps some Moslem) Serbs on one side and Islamic Bosniaks on the other. Kosovo: Orthodox Christian and some Moslem Serbs on one side and Islamic Albanians on the other. Origin? Mutual as well - great demographic trends caused by the Ottoman breaches. There are other (although not as important) similarities as well. Also, all the differences '''''make no difference'''''. The point is that the Bosnian Serbs' declaration of independence was only partially accepted, nor did Bosnia and Herzegovina approve the seccession. It is to my opinion that the situation with Kosovo is even less evident - with '''''no''''' declaration of independence '''''nor''''' recognition is present. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 10:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::War in Kosovo had no religious color. KLA did not fight Serbian police and military because they were Orthodox or whatever, but because they were doing what they were doing. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
----

Woah, I just noticed your post on my talk page for the '''''1st time'''''. :D

Why not just expand the other sections? I told you that I will shorten it up. Give this to work some time. I have another plan in store - if this doesn't work/you don't agree with it - let me know I'll pull off ''Plan B''. ;)

Jesi li procitao sav tekst o Crnoj Gori? Cudi me sto nemas nista za dodati/pitati. Evo, ja imam da dodam nesto sto propustih u periodu pocetka raspada Jugoslavije. 1993. godine je promijenjena zastava Republike Crne Gore iz 1992. Kako bi se razlikovala od republicke zastave Srbije, plava boja u medji trobojke je znatno posvijetljena - no klasicno crveno-plavo-bijelo je nastavilo da bude u upotrebi. Do 1993 godine se i Srpskohrvatski jezik raspao - Crna Gora je usvojila ''Srpski jezik ijekavskog izgovora'' za novi. 1992 godine je i ukinut crnogorski grb - jer postoji srbijansko-crnogorski jugoslovenski zajednicki, a i predstavljao je ''komunisticka brda''. Moram kritikovati referendum za ocuvanje Jugoslavije s Srbijom iz '92. Jedva da je dvije trecina birackoga tijela izislo - a i glasanje je bilo marginalno na etnickoj osnovi. Mnogi Hrvati, dobar dio Muslimana i mnogi Albanci (kao i neki pro-independisti Crnogorci) su bojkovali referendum zbog brojnih sukoba sada vec bivse Jugoslavije. Naravno, skoro 95% stanovnistva je glasalo da odrzi Jugoslaviju s Srbijom - i da je jos birackoga tijela izislo, ne bi se rezultat promijenio. Nacionalnosti su isto samo dijelomicno bojkotovali - a ne kompletni Nacionalni Bojkot kao kod Srba u Hrvatskoj, Bosanskih Srba i Kosovskih Albanaca - koji bi oznacio da je referendum usmjeren '''protiv''' brojnih nacija. Volio bih da je malo manje glasanje bilo na etnickoj osnovi i da je vise birackoga tijela izislo. I naravno, volio bih da nije bilo izuzetnog kampanovanja od strane crnogorskih i njima savjeznickih (uglavnom srbijanskih) politicara koji su bili spremni da uzmu sve stvari u svoje ruke, samo kako bi referendum uspio i Jugoslavija opstala u Crnoj Gori i Srbiji. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::Now this info is new to me. Again (for who knows which time) I would need some sources, to refer to, as if they are facts, I would like to know more about them. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
----

(''nastavak...'')

Republika Crna Gora (u SRJ-u) je pocela procese razgranicenja s Hrvatskom 1996. godine, kada je privremeno rijesen teritorijalni spor oko [[Prevlaka|Prevlake]] - malog hrvatskog teritorija koji je bio jugoslovenska narodna baza. 1997. godine Hrvatska anektira UN Protektorat Istocne Slavonije, Baranje i Zapadnoga Srijema - koji je mirno integrisan u Hrvatsku 1998. godine. Ovim umiru sve pretenzije crnogorskoga politickog vodjstva o mogucem sirenju Savezne Republike Jugoslavije. Kao sto nije ni smrt poslijednjeg kraja srpske civilizacije u Hrvatskoj veoma dobro prihvacena u Crnoj Gori, tako nije ni konacni ustav Republike Bosne i Hercegovine iz iste '98, koji je zaveo centralizam, uveo Hrvate i Bosnjake u Republiku Srpsku (Srbi su vec odavno bili u Federaciji Bosne i Hercegovine) i srusio bilo kakvu branu izmedju Federacije i Srpstva u BiH. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

----

Te '98 je i ukinut Srpski Dinar u Bosni i Hercegovini - ni to se nije svidjelo. Srpski dinar je bio stvoren 1992 godine. (s Srpskom Republikom) da zamijeni Jugoslovenski dinar - umjesto novoga Bosanskog dinara. U Oktobru 1993 suocio se s velikom inflacijom od 1,000,000:1 - sto je dovelo krahu srpske ekonomije u nekadasnjoj Bosni i Hercegovini. U Januaru 1994 postalo 1,000,000,000:1 (od prosle vrijednosti) - kada se sve steglo oko Srba. Kada su poceli gubiti rat, usvojili su ''Novi Dinar'' - paralelan s jakom Njemackom markom, radije nego s bezvrijednim Jugoslovenskim dinarom (i tako sve do ukidanja 1998 i uvodjenja BiHovih Konvertibilnih maraka). U Srpskoj Krajini je postojala slicna situacija - od 1991-1992 je koristen Jugoslovenski dinar. Zamijenio ga je ''Reformisani Dinar'' u Julu 1992 godine, koji se 1. Oktobra 1993 suocio s 1,000,000:1 inflacijom; zamijenio ga je ''Oktobarski dinar'', a u Januaru 1994 godine, kada izbi 1,000,000,000:1 inflacija - doveden je ''Dinar iz 1994''. Ubrzo je i on propao, kao i srpska krajisna ekonomija - pa je Hrvatska kuna koristena sve do izgnanka 1995 godine. Vlada u egzilu je privhatila Jugoslovenski dinar (sve do 2003, kada je stvoren Srpski dinar). Republika Crna Gora je koristila '''Jugoslovenski dinar''', ali se suocila s mnogim inlfacijama zbog mnogih stvari (pretjerani drzavni troskovi, sankcije, kriminal,...) od 1,000,000:1 1993 godine i 1,000,000,000:1 1994 godine - sto se nadovezalo na 10:1 iz 1992. i 1:10,000 iz 1990. godine. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

== HRE asht Asterion ==

Jam mëse 99% asht i njojti person--[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 00:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, can you ask this guy to leave me alone? All this because I removed his personal attacks in his userpage, which for some obscure reason he does not think were attacks and started sermoning me on the UN (!?!) Maybe I should ask [[User:Inshanee]] to see what he thinks... [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 00:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:What pissed me off was that it was unsigned and gave the impression you were happy to keep things protected with no discussion, not that you did not credit me or else (I request many page protections expecting nothing). I just hope you will prove me wrong. I could not even bother to check the page history though I suspected it would be you. If you were so happy with it, why did you not simply request it yourself instead carry on with the edit war? (Remember, two would only edit-war when both of them want to). I am sorry but it seems you only tap-well-done-people-on-the-back when things go your way. As ChrisO said somewhere else, the problem seems to be about people defending uncivil attitudes because they are on the right side, and I am about Ferick and Hipi too. Excuse me if I find very hard to assume good faith here. I just needed to get this off my chest. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 07:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::It was unsigned? I just checked it, for some reason sometimes Wikipedia puts the date only, not my fault. I always sign, and verify that I did. I am happy to keep things protected without discussion? Am I not the one that discusses the most? check my contributions please, and then speculate. Why I did not ask for protection myself? Because I believe that people can come to their senses, sooner or later. Seems like I was wrong, as with the flood of sockpuppets and meatpuppets, I could not face them alone. Now that other statement that I "only tap-well-done-people-on-the-back" when things go my way, that is some offense. I did not agree fully with you on your previous edits, but I thought it was a compromise and greeted you on that. You are far from doing things my way, and I do not expect you to. Ferick has some good points, but he is a bit rushy, and it is not up to me to change him. Hipi brings good sources, but lacks English language skills. I give credits for what they do well, not when they rush. When they rush, I give them advise to slow down, as I did several times and you know. It is good you have this off your chest. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I apologise for the misunderstanding on the signature bit. I should have assumed good faith on this. I stand for my comments on Ferick and Hipi. Whatever disagreements they may have, the whole "education" thing brought out by Ferick was utterly deplorable, together with Hipi's racist remarks on Roma and Serbian people (and this has nothing to do with lack of language skills). As I said, edit wars only happen when people want them to happen. Frankly, you also continued with the resolution 1244 controversy and actually started rushing things before the vote on the Montenegrin referendum was not even over. I am very annoyed with the whole situation and this is driving sensible people off the article. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 12:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I continued with 1244 Resolution controversy? Oh well, the whole resolution is a mess, but still what I said was what the resolution exactly quotes. I do not see where my mistake is there. If you are annoyed by the situation, that does not give you the right to accuse me for that, as I (for the difference) am trying to give explanation to people, to hope that they stop this annoyance they are creating with their nationalist NPOV. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

==Muzika==
M'fal Ilir se nuk e kom pare komentin tend ne bio faqen time. Metallica me pelqen shume, por Dream Theater edhe me shume. Besoj se e ki lexu faqen time ne lidhje me ta. Thanx per komentin, [[User:Petrit Augustini|Aeternus]] 18:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Ska problem Petrit. Po pashe qe e kishe update sajtin. Shume mire. Edhe une ne moshen tende e kam pelqy Metallica, Dream Theatre, Rage against the machine, Nirvana etj. Tash pleqeria e jam zbute pak, po perseri i ndegjoj ato se jane legjenda. Kishe shku edhe ne Irlande te vendi ku U2 kishin be incizimet e para a? shume mire. Flasim.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

== Districts in Kosovo ==

Nëse e shikon Kodin Postal do të shohës që ato në faktë janë të ndara ashtu në qarqe (Ka edhe prova tjera por unë ende nuk jam ra në to). Administrata dhe gjithë sistemi administrativ Kosovarë është i ndarë sipas këtij principi. Mirpo sipas kartës Evropiane, komunat kanë të drejtë të vendosin për lidhje komunale, kjo edhe e ka ngadalsuar procesin në terren. Mirëpo si do që të jetë infrastruktura është e pregatitur dhe nuk ma merrë mendja se ndonjëra komunë ka të holla të hudhë poshtë, për ndryshimin e infrastruktures.--[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 18:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::E di Hipi, te kuptoj plotesisht. Ka gjithe ato pengesa nga lloj-lloj ligjesh ne fuqi ne Kosove, qe po e pengojne zhvillimin ne terren. Qe gjen diku dokumente, na i sjell, ose rregulloje permes tyre [[Municipalities of Kosovo]]. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't vandalise articles. You and I both know what the KLA was and what they did. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 23:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:you are not welcome in my talk page. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

== Rakia ==
[[Image:Sljivovica1094.JPG|right|thumb|135px]]
Why are you accusing C-c-c-c, Boris, Estavisti and I of being the same person? All four of us are currently living in different locations, and different continents. Estavisti has more edits than Boris as well... Boris really worked hard on that sockpuppet! Anyhow, feel free to add me on msn, so we can have a chat. ''([email protected])'' --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 01:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::I was impressed by the speed of coordination of reverting article in KLA article. Of course one would be suspicious. Having an msn account does not make me suspect less. I think discussing here is enough, do not need further discussions in msn. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

== Ja arriten qëllimit ==

Ja arritën qëllimit që me hekë atë që kamë prezentuar në pjesën fillestare të fletës së diskutimit. Nejse, ma merrë mendja se e ka kryer funksionin por me siguri që shpejtë kam me prezentu diçka të ngjajshme.

== False alarms ==

Hi,

I'm sure that Bormalagurski has some sock-puppets, but Krytan is definitly not one of them. Estavisti is possible not one of his sock-puppets either. These people have quite a different interest appart from having common affection for extremely biased pro-serbian editing.

It is obvious that these people coordinate their activities, but they are '''not''' the same person.

So, next time You decide to report him for sock-puppeting, beter be sure, or you might end up like a sheppard that cried "wolf".

Bormalagurski has reputation so bad, that only think that helps him are accusations against him proven false ;). So, let's not do that.

Regards, [[User:Ante Perkovic|Ante Perkovic]] 08:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::Did you see the description of my suspicion? I also suspected meatpuppetry, not only sockpuppetry. The speed of reverting, and coordination, that could make anyone suspect. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to tell me about meetpuppetry, I've seen plenty of it in last 2 or 3 weeks. Anti-croatian propaganda has risen 10-fold since the begginig of May. I believe Boris is behind at least some of those incidents. But, how do You prove these things? Meet puppetry is, by definition, impossible to prove by various IP checks. --[[User:Ante Perkovic|Ante Perkovic]] 10:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::I am sure you are familiar with the same type of actions. The case I described showed a perfect example of meat-puppetry, for example. No need to check IP's here. The coordination, and the amount of text reverted is a reason enough to suspect that. Come on, they edited within less than 1 minute. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::: Well, You wrote ''Just check when suspected sockpuppets User:Krytan and User:Estavisti "started" editing.''. So, I don't see You mentioned meat puppetry, only '''sock''''-puppetry
::: Listen, I'm on your side, and that is why I'm telling You to slow down and not to make complaints that You can not prove. I think we better examine the rules of wiki and precisely formulate which rules they broke. I'm refusing to believe that this organised POV campaign can go unpunished for much longer. --[[User:Ante Perkovic|Ante Perkovic]] 12:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::I understand your point, Ante. Yes, something should be done for this POV campaign, which I am sure some organize through MSN messenger or something. Let me know if you notice something suspicious as well, and I can help you prepare a report for the admins.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 14:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't accuse me for anything, I have been law-abiding, I'm sorry that you can't just accept that. I have a clean record. I have never been blocked. Ever. Estavisti is also a good law-abiding contributer, who has more edits than Boris. Boris, sure he has a history, but you keep accusing him for his POV. I can accuse you of that too. Why the hell do you take out the point that I put in the Kosovo article, when I said that the Serbian (not Serbia-Montenegro) constitution defines Kosovo as an autonomous province in Serbia? --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 21:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::You know very well the reason why I suspected you. Check my report. You either are the sockpuppet or meatpuppet i.e. were told by MSN to change it at that exact second when the other was almost crossing the 3RR rule. Anyone would be suspicious. If not sockpuppet, your reverting coordination with the other user is admirable...and "patriotic".[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Coordination? Grow up. I have those articles in my watch list. The moment it is edited I can see it. You in fact might be Hipi's meatpuppet. Or is he your meatpuppet? --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::whatever. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Loss of words, Ilir? --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

==Skanderbeg heroism==
Come on Ilir, you cant belive it yourself that a warlord from the medevial age is a hero? Thank God we stop this glorification of Swedish "heros" and "kings" during the 1950's. You should too. [[User:Litany|Litany]] 17:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::If you read a bit about his wars and contribution, you would appreciate him, too, as he stopped the influx of Ottoman empire in the rest of Europe, but not leting Ottomans cross the Adriatic Sea to Italy. Swedish still glorify heroes, and are proud of their Viking ancestry. Why does it irritate you that I consider Scanderbeg a hero? It's proven in many years, that he indeed deserves such a title. History usually reveals fake heroes, for him none could find one thing against calling him a hero. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I know enough about Skanderbeg. He is not a hero.
:::If you did know anything about Swedish history or how our schools works you would know that we are not praising any "heroes". The days of glorification for old kings is over. In school they are very strict about that. We are thought from the very start to be open minded for a start. It is also very important, no matter where that we are teached that thousands of people died every year during the centuries because of our "great heroes". Vikings were traders and extraordinary sailers from Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Some of them did commit crimes like rape, murder and loothing, just like anybody else in that era. Everybody is aware of that and no one is proud of that behaviour. End of story.
:::A warlord like Skanderbeg is not better then another, like Arkan for an example. They only care about their on treasure and the importance in getting more treasures. It dosent matter if he was living in the 15th century or now in present time. Those kind of peoples minds are still incredible greedy. Why would Skanderbeg be any differant then? The sources from the mediveal age is not the best you know.
:::And I hardly doubt that Skanderbeg felt nationalism or patriotism for all Albanians or Albania. The nationalism we know today was born during the 19th centruy. Thats why you praise him today, and is there not alot of other Albanian "heroes"?
:::With respect, [[User:Litany|Litany]] 19:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::whatever Litany. I was not saying he is a Swedish Hero, Scanderbeg was (is) considered a hero for Albanians, period. No need for glorifying his deeds, historians from all around the world have done that enough. If you claim that Vikings are not important and not mentioned in Scandinavia, how come they are almost in every food product almost, let alone other things in the everyday life. No need to deny that. Comparing Scanderbeg to Arkan? now that is some offense. I am not sure ever that Scanderbeg had gone with his army to burn down neighbouring countries nations. Stop making such ridiculous comparison. There are many respectful Albanian heroes. Do you want me to mention them to you? With respect, too. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Haha dont you see? You are a victim. I could compare Skanderbeg to anybody at his time or present. But he is holy for you so you could never see or would be able to listen to anybody who has another opinion then you. I think you are very tragic who must talk about the "heroic" KLA. Dont you see how serbs glorify the chetnkiks? What comes around, goes around. Stop glorify murderers and some old geezer who have been dead for 500 years. I think/belive Albanians has so much better "heroes" to offer then some warlords.
:::Like I said, most vikings were farmers and traders. Only a few was warriors under some warlord "kings" who would go on pillage trips. Alot of vikings acctually colonizied big parts of northern Europe, from Irland to Russia, and even Iceland and Greenland. You know the vikings explored America 500 years before Columbus.
:::Sorry but I dont know what you talk about with the food? There is some viking traditions in still in it today. It is nothing wrong to be proud of someones heritage, culture and country. Stop only your glorification. That can only bring harm. Gå i frid [[User:Litany|Litany]]

:I really do not understand your points. Try to resemble them in rather more coordinated way, please. Did I say there is anything wrong with you being proud of your heritage, country, culture? No. Why does it irritate you when I do so? Scanderbeg is not holy, he is just a hero, to me, and to the Albanian nation, wherever they are located. Again, you compare Scanderbeg's deeds with chetniks :)))) very bad combination, again. Scanderbeg was not a warlord, you are mistaken again. Oh and KLA, yes, their war was heroic indeed. Fighting such a machinery with barely hand-held weapons, that cannot be described in other words than heroism. what do you mean with the sentence "you are very tragic who must talk about heroic KLA", your statement does not make sense. You do not give a picture of a neutral wikipedian at all with your comments, that are clearly everything but of good intentions about Albanians. They say relationships change the (political) opinion of people, they destroyed world leaders :)) seems like that is having a bad effect on you as well, i.e. you are not being able to be neutral, due to the (mis)information you are being fed with. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 16:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

== Hello ==

How's it been? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 17:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::Fine thanks, HRE. Pretty normal, in Wikipedia at least, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, multiplying like crazy. Apart from that, taking a time off, resting after many months of stress with my thesis. How are you? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:::On a wikibreak, finishing my work & some other things (history reviews, don't ask...). I was wondering did you get the time to read up my info (o Crnoj Gori i dr.)? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 08:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

==Controlling Serb Falsehoods==

Here is some info that may help you to counter Serb falsehoods in the Kosovo talk page. I am on the mission to bust all their myths:)

As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods.
Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing. This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!

Poverty still rife in Serbia[http://www.balkanupdate.com/2005/10/poverty-still-rife-in-serbia.html] “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role.
“We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty.
“We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”

Half of Serbia Illiterate[http://www.balkanupdate.com/2005/07/half-of-serbia-illiterate.html] “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “

I report, you decide.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 18:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::Interesting articles you found, Ferick. Thanks for sharing them with me. Good luck with your mission. I've been trying to fight the falsehoods eversince I "came" to Wikipedia. The time when Serbian regime propaganda convinced the world that Albanians should be under their control is a past one. Albanians suffered enough from that propaganda, filled with lies, and speculations, to just justify the classical oppression, as the last (Milosevic) war showed. I will try to supply you with some articles that I find. Showing the truth is a must, and the main purpose of Wikipedia. Even the old documents which de-jure still attempt to make Kosovo seem in any kind of relation with inexistant states are shortlived. By the end of this year, things will be much clearer. Can't wait. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess what we lack in reading and writing skills we make up in the [http://www.energychallenge.org/ sciences].
::A friendly advice, I think you should instead invest more in increasing the awareness on Human Rights, and reducing the ever-increasing nationalistic energy in Serbia, with Radicals gaining in influence. You do not need those successful scientists, if your leaders are fed from such extreme ultra-nationalistic parties. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Assuming that Kosovo is in Serbia, (which it is by the way), I could actually believe that 3 million illiterate rate, if a good amount was in Kosovo. Also, I wasn't aware blogs were "credible" sources, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo_Liberation_Army&action=history even dear Ilir said so ;) ] --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 21:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that you are patriotic enough to trust information coming form your countries Ministries. No?

Oh, forgot to mention it: Serbian Ministries don't have a way of collection information in Kosovo.
Sorry to ruin your day, but these stats are from Serbia only. Another Serb myth busted! [[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 04:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::You do not sound any different from the person I suspected you of being the sockpuppet of. The same irony, the same type of argument. As far as the source is concerned, it seems like b92 reported that. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Ilir, this would be pathetic enough if you were from a rich country and insulting Serbia about its economic state. However, you are Albanian and, true to form, the pathetic, frustrated, powerless, Schadenfreude that shines through everything you write relating to Serbia is not absent here. I've been to Albania, the country where shopkeepers sit in the dark in the evening and only switch on the generator when customers come in to save money. Not because there's a power cut (though those are frequent), but because the electricity grid hasn't reached their part of the country. The European country (shocking, isn't it?) where people herd their cattle down the A-roads. So I suggest you focus your energies and intelligence (you must have had some to get that MSc.) on improving your own country instead of lashing out at a more successful one. Now you're going to say that this is a personal attack, unprovoked, blah blah blah, you're such a poor victim. You've been provoking all of us with your crap, what did you expect? --[[User:Estavisti|estavisti]] 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::Refrain from personal attacks, full of irony, and provocation. I have simply stated my suspicion, which should not irritate you if you have nothing to do with it. I will address your personal attack to some administrator. Hope that serves a good lesson to you. Thanks for dropping by, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:::By the way, I am an Albanian from Kosova, I do not understand why do you give me this information on Albania, when the whole dispute we got involved in was related to KLA?! Your irony gives me more reason to suspect you still, as you do not differ from Krytan or the other one. The same irony, the same "facts", the same attacks. And yes, personal attacks are considered calling someone '''the pathetic, frustrated, powerless,''', '''a poor victim''', etc. Re-consider your behaviour, could be harmful to your further editing. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about in your [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEstavisti&diff=55841719&oldid=55840780 latest comment on my talk page]? Yet again? I only made one personal attack on you, maybe you have me confused with someone else?--[[User:Estavisti|estavisti]] 01:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, again, the same one, towards me. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 01:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Do any of you care to address the subjects addressed in those articles? So what if Albania is poor? Nobody is denying that.
What we are saying is that Serbia may be in a worst shape.
The articles still stand. I guess you accept the articles as they are?[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 04:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I know you hate me, and I know you think the feeling is mutual, [http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=TOOLBR&q=serbia+literacy+rate but], and [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/yi.html also]...! --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 04:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::I don't hate you, I don't want to talk to you. Out of my talk page. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 08:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

==Farewell==
Ilir, I'm leaving Wikipedia. I know you don't want to talk to me, but even though you are mad at me, I don't think you're a bad person, only poisoned by the regime you've come to trust. I hope one day you will find it in your heart to forgive me for the trouble I've caused you, if not, so be it. I hope one day you will see that every politician is a liar, and there is no perfect government, no "one side" to a story, no "one cause" to a war, and no "one solution" to a problem. Eventually, Kosovo made us drift apart, a province I've never been to, nor aspire to visit. If you and your people get your "independence", I hope that you'll understand that you didn't earn it by fair means, but by means of terror, hate and with great help from thre CIA. Just like Republika Srpska, Kosovo has a lot of blood on it's hands, and you will have to live with that for the rest of your life. But it's your life, and not mine. Farewell. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 00:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

== Kraja ==

I apologize if I deleted a legitimate article; I was following the trail of vandalism on [[Tuzi]], (which placed Tuzi in [[Malësi e Madhe]] district) so I thought that article was a hoax as well. Still, it is certainly not a "town and municipality" but a small village, and it contains various nonsenses about its "communes of Tivat, Bar and Ulqin", and four (!) districts. Could you at least reduce the "province" to its real size? Thanks. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 10:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::Not sure I understood your point, Duja. I am not familiar with the province you mention. It is certainly not in the district you mention, which is in Albania. Let me know if I can help clarify more. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Let's continue the discussion on [[Talk:Kraja]]. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 10:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

== Shqip ==
tung ilir. Kemi një problem me një serb që po shton një link në artikullin për shkrimtarin I.K. ( nuk po e shkruaj emrin e tër për shkak se tani ata për inat shkojn kundërshtojn editimet tona. Link të qon tek një faqe e propagandisteve maqedon, dhe edhe intervista dhe edhe personi i intervistuar janë të konstruara. Shko dhe shiko se qka po ndodh, dhe treoj ati vandalit se po i dhunon rregullat e Wikipedia. Shumë përshendetje.

== Hey,... ==

if you don't want to talk to me - please just say so. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 18:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::why would that be? :) There's been too much traffic in my page these days, and I might have not noticed any question you made. Sorry for that. I will check it again. How are you by the way? back from the break? Best, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

== Het gaat goed ==

Hi Ilir, unfortunately I cannot greet you in your own language, as you did to me. Thank you very much, and it is nice to hear you like my country. I have never visited the eastern part of Europe myself, but maybe I will in the future.

I also would like to ask some lenience from you in the debate on the Kosovo talk page. I understand that you sometimes get tired of all the people trying to push their views. In the case of Osli, however, I agree with him that the first paragraph could be much better and simpeler (I was also the one who changed the wording from "de jure" to "in principle"). I hope my last idea (see the Kosovo talk page) is something you can live with. If not, then I think Osli will also not give in and there will be no other alternative then to seek a third opinion, which could end up with a totally different version of the introduction. Please do not see this as a personal attack, I am just trying to find a consensus here so we can lift the editing block on the article. Best regards, [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ilir, no it is just that here on wikipedia and in general on the internet, sometimes the nuances of what is typed get lost, also because we are both non-native english speakers. So sometimes words get interpreted differently than they were meant to be, especially in a heated debate. I just wanted to assure you that my only interest is in getting the dispute solved. I hope putting it up on the third opinion page will bring us some independent opinions on the matter. Best regards, [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 11:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

----

No, I'm not - my posts are at the top of this page. I bring good news from Montenegro - (finally) democratic ellections will come this year. Milo Djukanovich's Bloc (for Independence/Liberal/European Montenegro) has finally collapsed (I thought that they would've died out before the referendum) and the new president/premier of Montenegro will probably be from the (most) democratic party - SDP (Serbian Democratic Party). The only thing left is to file charges and dispatch Milo and his guys over to Hague (or better, sentence them here). --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 08:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::Is that a good news? I thought Djukanovic had great support and had brought the independence for Montenegro. How come his bloc is collapsing? can you share the link where you got that info? SDP the most democratic party? I am not sure I understood this HRE. You do not seem to be the HRE who supported the independence of Montenegro. :) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== tung Ilir! ==

nuk isha një kohë të gjatë në en:wiki. po e shoh që paskan vazhduar me të njëjtat metoda kundër teje. por ti thjesht injoroi sa të mundesh. ai njëri përdorues, i cili kinse dëshiron të ikë nga en:wiki është një përdorues ultranacionalist, jam duke e përcjellur ne wikin e gjuhës së tij amtare. por edhe atje nuk ia mbajnë shumë anën, se edhe ata si duket ngadalë kanë filluar të lodhen nga gënjeshtrat e veta. ky dëshiron të bëjë këtu një admin që i përkrah idetë i tij e të tjerëve si ai. në wikin e gjuhës së tij shpesh e ka diskutuar, por tash për fat të keq po merren mesh me mesingjer si duket, e nuk e di se kënd do ta propozojnë.
e hoqa atë lidhjen e jashtme, që ishte te ai shkrimtari, se e pash që një përdorues tjetër të kishte treguar për këtë problem. më trego nëse mundem të të ndihmoj në ndonjë mënyrë, sa të kem mundësi do ta bëjë këtë. por mos u hidhëro nëse kohë pas kohe nuk jam aktive dhe nuk të përgjigjem menjëhere. me të vërtetë në këto javët e fundit dhe në të ardhmet po kam shumë tepër për të mësuar, provime shumë të mëdha. megjithatë shumë suksese ty si në wiki ashtu edhe në (më duket kështu më ke thënë) studimet pasuniversitare. dëgjohemi pra, --[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)--[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

----

Well - After DOS finally destroyed Milosevic's regime in 1999 and 2000, what happenned, do you remember? It collapsed - just as I have always been saying - '''''unity brings a common enemy'''''. Now that Milo's Bloc has achieved its goal defeating its enemies - they turned on against themselves, just as it always happens.

I always consider what's best for the people - I'm no fanatic/nationalist or whatsoever - but a utopist (read up my user page). The rasformation of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro is the best thing for its People - and I support Milo Djukanovich's campaign for it - but just as I support Miloshevich's investments in the economy, Stalin being the winner of the war - or Hitler's industrialization of Germany - if you know what I mean. I am '''''far''''' from supporting the Miloshevich-style Montenegrin dictatorship of Milo Dj. and his bloc... I thought you read all the info I wrote about Montenegro - you would've realized that by now (no comment?) Montenegro is about to have the first, regular elections in its history. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 18:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::Now I am all puzzled. You supported Djukanovic for organizing the indepenence capmaign of Montenegro, and not te SDP. But then you support SDP to lead the independent country that Djukanovic organized, knowing that SDP was against the whole idea of independence. I am all confused :). I did not know Djukanovic was similar to Milosevic, having a dictatorship. I learn something new today for my neighbours. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== [[Template:Kosovo]] ==

Hi Ilir, why is your attitude toward this template contradictory with the more ''understandable'' approach you are showing in the main article? [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 20:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::It was full of POV pushing, that is why. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:I am not saying less than you are saying, with my revert. No need to be so pushy like you once were in that particular page, Asterion. It won't bring any results.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you still are. This is why you would not accept Kosovo is a province of Serbia, still part of Serbia and Montenegro (as the commonwealth has not been dissolved yet). I was never "pushy", just adding a verifiable fact. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::You think wrong, and for some reason I feel some "old-Asterionish" behaviour in you. Don't take my evaluation wrong. You just seem to be more tense, and more arrogant towards me lately. What I added is also verifiable. Depends how you look at it, doesn't it? Take care,[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::No, Ilir. Is that "you against the world" attitude of yours what I find annoying sometimes. You could be a great guy but sometimes but so unwilling to compromise that it defies logic. Had you not been uncivil in your edit summary reply to [[User:Lord Eru]] at [[Template:Kosovo]], I would not have intervened at all. You were happy to follow on [[User:Hipi Zhdripi]] on this once again.
:::#By the way, this is from Encyclopaedia Britannica[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9046111?query=kosovo&ct=]: ''KOSOVO (Albanian: Kosova): '''Region within the republic of Serbia''', Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic. Kosovo is bordered by Serbia proper to the north and east, Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west, and the republic of Montenegro to the northwest. Serbs call the region Kosovo and Metohija...''
:::#This from Encarta[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579795/Kosovo.html]: ''Kosovo, '''province in southwestern Serbia''', in the republic of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or FRY). Kosovo is bounded on the south by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, on the west by Albania, and on the northwest by Montenegro...''
:::#Another from 2006 Columbia Encyclopedia[http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/K/Kosovo.asp]: ''KOSOVO [Kosovo] or Kosovo-Metohija , Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet, '''province''' (2002 est. pop. 1,900,000), 4,126 sq mi (10,686 sq km), S Serbia and Montenegro, '''in Serbia'''. Priština is the chief city..."
:::#And finally one more taken from the CIA Factbook (updated 1 June 2006), regarding administrative divisions in SM: ''2 republics (republike, singular - republika); and 2 nominally autonomous provinces (autonomn pokrajine, singular - autonomna pokrajina)('''both in the republic of Serbia''')* ; Kosovo* (temporarily under UN administration, per UN Security Council Resolution 1244), Montenegro, Serbia, Vojvodina*''
:::Bu you still will not accept it. This is why I feel that talking to you is like banging my head against the wall. Cheers, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 09:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that talking to me is like banging your head against the wall, then do no talk to me. Spare your nerves, and mine(by reading your arrogant comments). You still seem arrogant towards me, you remember very well that I stop answering to people who talk in such manner to me. Do not push towards that. I am very conservative about my nerves, I consider more useful using them for a more vital needs I have in life.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

== Montenegro ==
I suggest that you scroll up and read the text that I wrote to the up - and re-read the text o Montenegro that I wrote to you earlier in the archives - all those wars, political/criminal intrigues & other mischiefs were conducted by this very same Montenegrin government. You see, Slobodan Milosevic created Montenegro into his own puppet-state - empowering a ''triumvirate'' of 3 most powerful Montenegrins - most fanatical with the idealogy of Mileshevich's brainwash propaganda and finances: Milo Djukanovic, Svetozar Marovic & Momir Bulatovic. When the three had their powers combined - they were '''Gods''' in Montengro in 1990-1999. Two of them slightly altered their politics im proper to the fall of the Miloshevich world, only stay in power in 2000- present. Get it now? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 00:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::I am still puzzled. Why did the people vote for Djukanovic's demand for independence, and would soon vote the guy who wanted Montenegro to remain in SCG, who you claim to be really democratic? Sorry, but this recent voting kind of proves you wrong in a way. Maybe I am misunderstanding, please bear up with me. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you think that I wrote all that just because I'm an idiot (among other things ;) I wrote that so that you can finally understand the comprehensive picture of Montenegro - one of the most mixed in the world, where Montengro-Serbs are both defined & undefined as a people - where minorities rule over majorities and where oppositions always win in the political world - among other things (most being so complicated that I would have to write esseys - I gave you my short history of modern Montenegro that I presented on Thy talk page so that you can understand it best yourself). --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 00:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::No, I do not consider anyone an idiot, if they have the ability to make a point here in Wikipedia. They might just have a different view. Honestly, I thought the picture was much clearer to me about the situation in Montenegro, but you got me really confused now, with your prediction. If this was all a trick those leaders played with the Montenegro's population, then it is not good at all, and I would be sad to hear it. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

== Revert warring ==
Regarding your edits to [[Demographic history of Kosovo]]: do not continue to simply revert this page constantly back to 'your' version. The 3 revert rule is a guideline, and users who show a heavy tendency to revert rather than discuss and compromise may still be blocked. --[[User:InShaneee|InShaneee]] 05:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::I understand that, InShaneee, but I tried to explain and discuss why that box is inappropriate there, but seems like it is an "army" of meatpuppets who insist on that version. It does not mean that they are right, right? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Also, you have broken the 3RR rule on [[Template:Kosovo]]. As for InShaneee, please have a read at [[WP:OWN]]. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 10:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::Whatever Asterion. You again accuse me of something ridiculous. I never claimed to own the article. whatever..really.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::It is not about whether you claimed it or not, but about actions. It took you less than an hour to revert the "intruder's edit". As InShaneee said you are showing a heavy tendency to revert rather than discuss. And please do not start doing that [[Little Britain]]esque's "whatever" thing to me. I just cannot stand it. Bye for now. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 10:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I discuss more than many around the articles that I am involved in, and you now it. Something tells me you need a break. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:Regardless of your reasons, there is no excuse for revert warring. Discuss things on the talk page, and if other users disagree, you'll simply have to accept the change. Additionally, you have been blocked for 24 hours for revert warring on Template:Kosovo. --[[User:InShaneee|InShaneee]] 17:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::I did discuss. None discussed with me. If other users disagree I have to accept the change? What if those users are various sockpuppets and meatpuppets? I do not think you are right in this case. Thanks for the unilateral block issued to me, even if I did not violate the 3RR on the same edits, but changed the content to reach a compromise. Check better next time before you blindly issue a block. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Comprimise comes before editing, not after. And yes, most CERTAINLY, if other users disagree with you, you should NOT edit war. And yes, if you continue doing it, you will be blocked again. --[[User:InShaneee|InShaneee]] 21:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::I expect you to follow the activity of the meatpuppets which keep reverting without discussing. I at least post a message in the talk page, showing the reason why I revert. Because they are a bunch of users, and give no reason for reverting, it does not mean their reverts are justified. Thanks for the repeated threat, which even in the first case I do not justify. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== Continue ==

you would've understood if you have read all the info. To shortly continue the story (please comment my earlier info), the Montenegrin political leadership wanted to draw a line with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - finally ending all Yugo-separatism. This is why they opposed Kosovo's independence Albanian movement in the 1990s - and because numerious cities like Pec - and the complex of Dechani - are of great value to the montnegrins (also, Prizren, slightly). Slobodan Milosevic had rebuilt many Churches on Kosovo - successfully promoting the [[Serbian Orthodox Church]] - but lacked the skill/finances to raise the most importend old ones, destroyed by the Turks. This made the Islamic element of Kosovo and Metohija look insignificant. Operation Horseshoe was devised - it's basis lied on simple facts: If the Frontier wasn't independent - neither will Kosovo secede from Serbia/Yugoslavia - by any means necessary. The numerious Serbian refugees westwards from the Drina (especially from [[Croatia]]) were to be used as new colonists of Kosovo. FRY's population was gradually dropping (except for the nationally aware Croats, Muslims/Bosniaks, Albanians and slightly Hungarians) - so the refugees were positivly accepted - ready to fill in the gaps.

In the following years - sanctions threatened Yugoslavia again. In 1993, the Moslem declaration of Bosnia consitutated a new nation out of the [[Muslims by nationality]] - [[Bosniaks]]. The Montenegrin government denounced the Muslims of Montenegro that they're Bosniaks - because ''these Muslims are not Bosnians - nor is it right to create an Ethnic Group out of a nationality''. The representers of the Islamic community of Montenegrin Sandzak responded by claiming ''who are the Montenegrins to teach us of the concept of ethnicity-nationality - when they themselves are, as it seems, Serbs?''

The situation started to change with the West pressuring Yugoslavia ever more - and the first ethnic cleansing of Albanians on Kosovo occured. The KLA was formed as well - over time it became violent, so much that Ibrahim Rugova denounced it as being the legimitate representator of the democratic will of the Albanian people. The only thing that kept Montenegro with Serbia was the resurgent movement for a ''[[Greater Albania]]'' - that wanted to annex eastern Albanian-populated regions of Montenegro to Albania. This movement's plans were declared in Ulcinj based on ''...with the formation of ethnic states - Greater Serbia and Greater Croatia - so shall we be in a Greater Albania''. The failure of the concepts of Serbia and Croatia splitting Yugoslavia failed this movement - the KLA instigated a rebellion in Montenegro, with the likehood of the rebellions in Presevo, Medvedja, Bujanovac and Macedonia - but the culprits were caught and violently punished - and the movement stopped. [[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 18:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

----

It became evident that Miloshevich's Bloc was failing - by then, the entire production in the Republic of Montenegro was put to a halt, and the country itself became a whole of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]. All the "''veterans''" of the Yugoslav wars that were just being busy nconducting the national frightening of Hungarians and Croats in [[Vojvodina]] - were now being transfered to [[Kosovo]]. It's main source of income was smuggling weapons to Albania and ciggaretes & other goods to Croatia and Italy - it's unique geographical position giving it the ability to do so. Montenegro became the source of Miloshevich's criminal income. Milo Djukanovich, Svetozar Markovich and others faced numerious charges and trials from the Italian Court - but whenever it came to that, Miloshevich's ever growing hand reached and protected them. In the Federal government, democratic, liberal circles won - however, they had no power over the country in reality, as the old regimes were still in power in Serbia (Miloshevich's) and Montenegro (Miloshevich's puppets). There became a rift in the Montenegrin political leadership - one under Milo Djukanovich in Montenegro - and the other under Slodoban Miloshevich that retreated from ''Yugoslavism'' and fell back to the Republic of Serbia itself. [[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 18:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the Banks in Montenegro and those in Serbia were obvious, though. While in RS the banks robbed the people - in Montenegro an even more organized Podgorica centralist footing was held - the Economy actually worked - they mostly relied on war profiteering. As soon as the war would be over - it meant the end of their economy - so that's why they gradually supported new "sparkles" across former Yugoslavia. Although inferior to Serbia, Montenegro's life standards remained high and the state ordered because of this. The mentallity of the people rapicly changed: in the early 1990s you've had fanatic Serb nationalists & brainwashed Miloshevich's minions - and in the late 1990s that very same people became pro-independists and anti-Serb propagators. The Yugoslav federal government became more democratic - while the montenegrin leadership under Slobodan Miloshevich retreated to Serbia. This led to the slow rift between Montenegro & Serbia. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 21:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Milo Djukanovich and his lackeys used everything they learned from a mastermind of politics & intigue - their tutor, Slobodan Miloshevich - to finalize their plans. They allied themselves with the Resistence & the Opposition in Montenegro - and devised a plan so devolish, so tricky & cunning that it was planned to the very end. By turning a blind eye to their black past - and mostly on relying the means of "Miloshevichism" - they conceived to realize Montenegro's 1991 desire for independence and eliminate all opponests. The sole reason was ''a perfect plan to '''stay in power''' by'' turning their backs on Belgrade & conquering Montenegro without political opponents - and without a single short fired.

The first action was allying with the Opposition (that opposed Miloshevich's Bloc since 1991 and constantly grew by time - and accepted an "''Unholy Allience''" as it was disguisted by the Podgorica regime) and reopen the border with [[Albania]] (that was just recently closed). Then, talks started with Zagreb & Tirana - and peace negotiations with the NATO '''''seperately''''' from the Federal Yugoslav government. The main reason for this was the 1999 NATO bombing campaign. After bombing Montenegro for several days - its people saw that it was being punished for something being conducted in a different place of FRY - the Republic of Serbia (Kosovo and Metohija). Montenegro drifted and opposed the Belgrade regime and guarranteed right-of-passage to UN peacekeeping travelling to Kosovo. As a reaction, Miloshevich and his lackeys invited the army to seize control over the Republic of Montenegro - he almost declared martial law - he was stopped by the turbollent actions on Kosovo, as since the NATO intervention, the war spurred more - and went very badly for both sides.

A large number of not only non-Albanian (mostly Serb), but also Albanian refugees to Montenegro from Kosovo only sped up the neutrality of Montenegro. At the peace treaty that temporarely solved the situation of Kosovo under UN protection and finished the [[Kosovo War]], Montenegro didn't have its representatives - only Serbia had. Despite this, the factual loss of Kosovo was very deeply accepted in Montenegro. In 1999, the Assembly under Milo Djukanovich replaced the ''[[Dinar|New Yugoslav Dinar]]'' from 1995 as the official currency of the Republic Montenegro by the [[German Mark]] - to start the Montenegrin economy seperated from the rest of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The same year - Miloshevich's regime finally collapsed in the Republic of Serbia and the last Montengrin political leadership in Belgrade withdraws. In 2000, Miloshevich is handed over to the Hague together with his band. Milo Djukanovich's collaboration with the west saves him from the Hague and he successfully keeps his '''black book of life''' very well hidden. At times, he admitted what he did - and claimed that he had done that under Miloshevich's pressure. His plan for a Montenegro that will become a "''criminal haven''" for his Bloc - which was/is becoming the "''rulling class''" in Montenegro was being realized by day - the pro-Serbian President of Montenegro & still faithful servant of Belgrade was the problem.

----

This is the '''''end''''' of the first half of the Republic of Montenegro within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia era (1992-1999). --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 23:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::With all respect, HRE, you should provide a bit of adduce for your edits. Makes it more credible for me to read. I need to do something these 2 days, so might not have time to read the text thoroughly. Sorry.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== You're welcome ==

Given the personalised nature of the arguments by some users, you have shown remarkable patience in the face of what can only be described as bullying. As for the 3RR issue, I recently fell foul of that for the same reasons as you - changing different parts of the same article while simultaneously reverting vandalism. When I reverted more blanking of the page, I was blocked again - even though there was no suggestion of a 3RR violation. The problem with admins is that they are given a report by a trouble-maker and blindly act on it, without knowing the context - perhaps their judgements are also influenced by their personal prejudices. This is a problem with an amateur project like Wikipedia and one that we have to put up with, sadly.

On the issue of Serbia and Montenegro, I would urge that we make no judgement on whether Kosovo is or is not a province of Serbia and instead quote from the two most important legal documents: the UN Resolution on Kosovo's status and the Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro. In my mind, the contradict. But it is up to the reader to determine which is more applicable. Given the fact that the union of Serbia and Montenegro is likely to be dissolved this year, forcing a new declaration on Kosovo's status, I don't think you'll have long for a definite legal answer to this issue.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 19:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== A vote ==
Dear Ilir, since this dispute ([[Kosovo]] and [[Template:Kosovo]])is still in a deadlock, I would like to ask if you could agree to have a vote on the subject. This way we would get an idea of how widely supported different introductions to the article are. I will do my best to get as many (neutral) people to vote as possible. The idea was to let them choose between your version, a version by Osli and Asterion and, optionally, an intermediate version written by me. Ofcourse this is only usefull if all parties (you, Osli, Asterion) agree to accept the result of the vote if there is a clear majority. I would set it up, in close correspondence with all of you, according to [[Wikipedia:Current_surveys]] and [[Wikipedia:Straw_polls]], which is part of [[Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes]]. Let me know how you feel on this matter, [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 19:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::If we decide to put this dispute for voting, but of course the version of the pro-Serbian editors will prevail, as right now it is only me (and maybe one or two) who are active on this particular subject who disagrees. But yeah sure, go for it. I do not favour the deadlock created either. But remember, no version proposed so far is mine per-se, as I do not support the one I actually defend as of now. The reason I am defending it, is because I am compromising, and I prefer to [[agree to disagree]], hence that version. And the only reason I do so is because it is backed by the two most important laws valid in Kosovo right now. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I understand your concerns regarding a vote, but I am afraid it will otherwise end up at the arbitration commitee, which often ends in one more users getting blocked in editing certain articles or topics. To address your concerns as much as possible, I suggest to put the following restrictions on every option for the intro: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. If you agree to these terms, I will also inform also the others and you and they can propose an introductory sentence. After a few days, this will be put up for a vote, which will run for 1-2 weeks. After that time, the introduction that is voted for the most (or has an agreed percentage of the votes, we also have to figure that out), will be the introduction of the article for the coming months. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 22:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::"My" proposal agreed already to all three points that you mentioned, it definitely states that it is administered by UN, it stated that the UNSCR 1244 de-jure still confirms that Kosovo is a part of FRY, and that it does function independently from the former (that is a fact, stated by most of the international governments, as it is UNMIK that governs with Kosovo, without FRY having '''any''' rights over '''any''' decision) and the indications show that full independence is about to be recognized by the end of the year...also stated by many. I will think of a more concise intro and send it over to you. Let me know before you submit proposals for the vote. Thanks, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::A new version was proposed by an Adminstrator (TheTom) on the [[Talk:Kosovo#Food for Thought|Kosovo talk]] page, perhaps you can have a look? [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 05:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ilir, since we haven't heard from [[User:The Tom]] for a few days, do you agree we continue with the vote using your last version in [[Talk: Kosovo]] and the version by Asterion and Osli73 in [[User talk:Reinoutr]]? Best regards, [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

== apet une ==

e pash qe e ki shkrujt dikund per jamal curtis. une e di 100% te sigurt qe ai eshte emri tjeter i dzonit, se jam tu e percill ne wikin e tyre. ky e ka edhe emrin cetnici. ka sigurisht edhe emra tjere, ama keta jane te sigurte. ate person edhe ne wiki te gjuhes se vet e kane blloku. e ai qe e ki akuzu ti: c-ja, se nuk po ja permendi emrin e plote, eshte ndoshta i atij qe kinse po don me leshu wikin. krejt te smut jane keta. po nuk kane faj se ua ka myk trurin propaganda e vendit te vet. po zgjohen ndoshta prej gjumit ndonjehere. te kishin blloku e pash. po me vjen shume keq qe nuk po muj me te ndihmu. edhe plus faktet historike nuk po i di shume mire, ti po din mjaft mire me i sqaru. po veshtire me depertu se keta te gjithe i kane ka 3-4 emra, e bohen kishe jane italian apo francez. ama une po e di menjehere se jane kopjet e tyre. cili spanjoll pash zote ka nerva edhe lufton aq shume per me shti ne artikull qe kosova eshte pjese e serbise?! keto fore neve nuk munden me na leshu. apet me randesi eshte qe vendi i jone ka mu bo i pavarur ju pelqeu ketyre apo jo. ti mundohu ma shume me u koncentru ne prezentimin tend qe e paske se shpejti. shume fat edhe ruj nervat! tung --[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 22:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

----

Well, why do you think the name of Montenegro has been "''a divided land''"? :D --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

== Ulqin ==

Thanks for the explanation! I was mainly confused because of websites like [http://www.ulqini.com/ ulqini.com] and [http://www.ulqini.de/ ulqini.de] which seem to be using Ulqini as nominative. --[[User:Dcabrilo|dcabrilo]] 23:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Disturbing you? How I just said hi:S [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

== Pristina ==

You asked for my opinion about name of Priština. Since it is certain that final solution for Kosovo will define Kosovo as some kind of state (whether fully independent or in some union with Serbia I do not know), but in both cases, names for the Kosovo places in Wikipedia then should be in main language used in Kosovo, and that is Albanian. That is what names we should use after final status is defined, but I do not know what names we should use before it. Even by the 1244 resolution, Kosovo is only formaly defined as part of FRY, but both, de facto and de jure, it is defined as an autonomous entity by the UN. Even current status of Kosovo could be good base to use names for places in main language spoken of Kosovo, but since there is no consensus about this among Wikipedia users, I have no idea what we should do at the present moment. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 13:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== Priština -> Pristina ==

Hi,

I am replying here, because I don't want to clutter that talk page. Wikipedia has a naming policy and "tradition" and do not try to justify ''anything'' on Wikipedia with how somebody feels about it. E.g. English word for Kosovo is Kosovo, not Kosova. English word for Pristina is Pristina, not Priština/Prishtina. Now, it will serve your cause better, and you will contribute more to the discussion, if you try to find solid sources that widely used English name for the capital of Kosovo is '''Pristina'''. E.g. try [http://books.google.com/ Google Books]. I do agree with you that it should be moved to Pristina, but most people (read: Serbs) will go against it if we anounce it without a proper, consistent, no bullshit, argument. Cheers --[[User:Dcabrilo|dcabrilo]] 06:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

::Howdy, Dcabrilo. Yup, I got your point, thanks for explaining. That is why I suggested the name for which none has feelings about, but it is just the way the UN mission in Kosovo has adopted. You should also know one thing, that if you rely on Google hits, you should know that the Serbian version will return more hits, because it includes the "Pristina" '''and''' the Serbian version. The diacritic is ignored in the first case. But anyways, here is a list of (influential) sources that use the version I am suggesting temporarily: [http://pristina.usmission.gov/ US Mission in Kosovo], [http://www.unmikonline.com UNMIK administration], [http://www.euinkosovo.org/ EU Mission in Kosovo], [http://www.osce.org/kosovo/ OSCE], [http://www.nato.int/kfor/ NATO-KFOR], BBC, CNN, etc. Feel free to look through them. take care, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

== I disagree... ==

...with you. Albanians and Serbs are AFAIC closer that Croats and Serbs (in ways). If you didn't know, there is a big difference between Albanians north of the river of Shkumb (Serbian-cultured) and south (hellenic-cultured). Throughout the history, Albanian princesses gave birth to Serb rulers and a Serbian Princess gave birth to Skenderbeg himself. Two clans in the [[Serb tribes]] are AFAIC ethnicly Albanian - and plenty Christian Albanians fled to Herzegovina and remained there for a long time (possibly assimilated). The Kingdom of Albania was created, among others, by Serbian courtiers - and [[Stefan Dušan]] was the Emperor of [[Albanians]] (next to others) who, for the first time, made Albanians a people in their own land - and before him there wasn't '''any''' Albanian nobility. There are several words in Serbian that are originally Albanian - and many words in Albanian that are originally Serbian. John Kastrioti's tomb in Elbesan bears an inscription in three languages: Greek, Latin and Serbian (Slavic). Elbesan is also a concentration of Serbian medieval rulers' tombs (noticed it's location? '''central''' Albania). Unlike many think, the two peoples were the same before the arrival of the Ottomans - and extreemly related until the passing of the Ottomans. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 19:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

::Now you just confirmed the propaganda by Milosevic, that Albanians that live in north of Shkumbin are called Shiptari, and those in the south are Albanian. I must disappoint you, by telling you that this is pure propaganda, and nonesense. I am very disappointed you believe in such nonsense, as I believed you were much smarter thant this. Albanians and Serbs are closer than Croats and Serbs? I will have to put this quote in my user-page soon. My God....[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

:: What? Why did you misinterpret every single thing I said? My point was simply - Serbs and Albanians are a people that share a very common history, traditions, culture (and many other things that have from each other). What was wrong? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

:I do not think you meant that. Our cultures mixed, and that is because we were neighbours for many centuries. But to say that you did not mix with Croatians, and that Albanians north of Shkumbin (you are clearly saying we are different from those in the south) are closer to Serbs in any way?!? That is too much. It is very interesting though, how different in cultures we have even though we lived for so many centuries close. There are very few inter-marriages, our languages are very different, we do not share the common religions, and have very different customs. I am not sure your claims are true, about Stefan Dusan creating the Kingdom of Albania, or Skenderbeg's mother being Serbian. Albanians and Serbs did not cooperate that much, even back in long history. Maybe we can make a difference, once Kosovo's status is confirmed. But that cannot be done by speculating, and referring to unconfirmed historical facts. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I though that Serbs and Albanians had cooperated quite a lot, in the Middle Ages at least. At the [[Battle of Kosovo]], didn't the Serb king have both Serbian and Albanians vassals fighting for him (while the Turkish sultan had quite a few Serbian vassals fighting for him)? And after the Battle of Kosovo, didn't both Serbian and Albanian lords serve in the Ottoman army? Generally, people dind't think that much about ethnicity back then (quite refreshing to think about it, actually).

Taking a look at Sweden (where I'm from), at the peak of power in the 17th century, the royal family was very cosmopolitan (see relations of [[Charles XII]], for example), the soldiers were Swedish, Finnish, Baltic, Germans and Scots, the bourgeoisie (burghers) were mainly Germans and Dutch and the nobility liked to speak French to each other.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::Nope, that was just one battle, in which not only Serbs and Albanians took place, but many other Balkans nations. Being in the Ottoman army, does not mean they cooperated. I think that back then they thought about ethnicity much more, and fought each other based on that, unfortunately. I wish that was true. If that were true, the hatred would not build up to this point that people had to shamefully fight in the end of the 20th century. I was mainly contradicting HRE above, for his claim that Albanians are close to Serbians in any way, and that Croats are not :))) that is just a ridiculous statement. Besides the religion, I am not sure what else do Serbs and croats not share?! Some Croats claim that they have Illyrian origin, but I am not very sure about that. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I recently finished reading a book ([[Krigarnas och Helgonens tid]]) on the early Middle Ages (400-800) in Europe by one of Sweden's most influential historians right now, [[Dick Harrison]]. It mainly focuses on Western and Southern Europe (Spain and Italy). An interesting part of it was about how conquering Germanic tribes interacted with the local population and nobility (in particular). His basic message is that the nobility sought to assume whatever culture had the highest status at the time (i.e. Roman/Byzantine culture). There appeared to be relatively little "ethnic" identification.

For example, the Goths, Gepids, Huns, Vandls, Kumans and various other peoples who entered Europe at the time were in many cases more like loose confederations of peoples of varying cultural/ethnic background than consolidated monolithic nations. For example, the Serb and Croat nations/tribes who entered the Balkans in the 7th century were, according to most scholars, formed by a mix of Slav and Indo-Iranian tribes (the etymology of Croats and Serbs is believed to be of Indo-Iranian origin from the region around the Caspian Sea). Once in the Balkans the elites of the Slavic tribes (including the Bulgars, of Turkic origin) usually sought to adopt Byzantine culture/identity as that was the prestige culture of the time. Medieval Serb culture/ethnicity, for example, would probably be a mix of Indo-Iranian, Slavic and Byzantine/Greek culture.

As the Slavs moved into what is today Greece, they usually adopted not only the Byzantine culture, but also the Greek language. So, present day Greeks are probably more related to the Slavs than to the ancient Greeks.

So, I have a very hard time believing that, somehow, Albanian culture and the Albanian ethnic group would have managed to maintain some kind of isolation vis-a-vis the rest of the world. Maybe a lot of the invading Slavs adopted the Albanian culture/language in some part just as they had adopted the Greek language/culture in other parts. And who is to say that a lot of 'Albanians' livnig in the Balkans durig the 7th century didn't adopt the culture/language of the invading Slavs. In Bosnia, 700 years later, a large obviously did adopt at least the culture and religion of the invading Turks/Ottomans, becoming today's Bosniaks.

Seeing the history of Europe, or indeed of the Balkans, as a history of distinct peoples and nations seems like a very old fashioned/antiquated way of looking at history and ethnicity. Sadly, it still seems to be very much adhered to in the Balkans. My guess is that it has to do with insecurity and a need to establish a historical record to justify present-day nationalist issues/conflicts.

Sorry for the long harangue on this, but I feel it is such a commonly misunderstood topic.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::No problem, Osli73. I understand your point. Cultures mix always. The culture of Albanians has borrowed from all sorts of occupators crossing through these lands. If we were to compare, Albanians got the least from Serbs. And what they got? I cannot really say, as I know no example of what Albanians borrowed from Serbs. Maybe they learnt about patience, and ability to live under occupation for decades, that maybe yes. After 5 centuries of occupation Albanians inherited Islam from Ottomans, that I know from medieval times. My point was also quite clear. Stating that Albanians (from north of some river in Albania, which is some sort of division of Gegh and Tosk - two main groups constituting Albanians) have more in common with Serbs, than Croats have, is just a propaganda fed by Milosevic and the alike. They always attempted to call Albanians living in the north "Shiptars" and those in the south "Albanians". And this was always used to feed nationalistic needs of Serbs, and create divisions among Albanians. But of course, none besides Serbs believed in this, fortunately. I do not buy this, either, and furthermore it just annoys me to listen to. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
----

P. S. - you're user page is '''''very''''' contradicting. KLA, Nato, Clinton, Rugova & Surroi at the same spot. :))) --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 17:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

::They all supported each other :)) Surroi is in a parliament, working closely with KLA-founded political party, Clinton and NATO did support KLA and their activities during the Kosovo war. Rugova also gave credits to KLA, NATO, Clinton, and had respect for Surroi. Rugova by the way even decorated [[Adem Jashari]] as a ''Hero of Kosovo''. I do not see '''any''' contradictions. On the contrary, I am very consistent. ;) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::: Eh, Surroi is a political idealist that I simply adore (like Ibrahim Rugova, Zoran Djindjich, etc.). Much better than the current government of Kosovo (Agyn Ceku - ''murders'' for heads of governments?) You support the NATO - which in a period of time considered KLA a terrorist organization. You also support peaceful, democratic movements of Rugova & Surroi - which is '''contradicting''' to the violent, extremist Kosovo Liberation Army. NATO is also responsible for Albanian losses - an Albanian children bus was hit by a NATO rocket. Rugova denounced KLA - claiming that it's violence doesn't represent the democratic will of the Albanian people. I personally think that the KLA is a shame - and '''''never''''' should the Albanian people be looked by them (especially not be proud of them). Image me putting on my talk page "''This user thanks the democratic revolutionary attempts of Zoran Djindjich''" and "''This user supports the ideology of the Serbian Radical Pary of Vojislav Seselj''" at the same time! Also, sorry for me being harsh like this - but your general "buttons" show simple ''Albanian nationalism''. It's like it doesn't matter to you whether they are violent, democratic, traitors against your own people - just that they are ethnic Albanians. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::: The reason that this post of mine was this harsh is that your reply to my post about Serbs & Albanians - showed as if you're dispicable of anything Serbo-Albanian. Or better said - that you disguist if Serbs have anything common with Albanians. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
::I do not share your opinion at all in this case, HRE. Sorry to disapoint you. Being a person that lived through the Kosovo war, I have the right to judge my way, and as such, those buttons in my page are completely justified. You have your reasons (which I really do not understand, as you are in no way related to Kosovo, neither were there during the war) which are based mainly in what propaganda you (have been) are fed. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::: '''"NATO did support KLA"'''. So do you agree [[Wesley Clark]] committed [[perjury]]? See [http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm page 30510 line 5]. -- [[User:Phildav76|Phil]] 15:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::Wesley Clark and NATO, so to speak, was supporting the right side in the imposed Kosovo war. I am shocked at whose accusation you are citing, Phildav76. Isn't he the butcher of the Balkans you are defending here? I do not feel like using the name of that person anymore. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I take that as a yes in answer to my question then. He was certainly one of those responsible for escalating the war in the first place. He also loves himself see[http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm page 30531 line 3]. -- [[User:Phildav76|Phil]] 22:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You obviously have simpathy for the one who triggered the war, the Balkans Butcher. But yes, Mr.Clark was among those responsible for Kosovo's liberation, if that is what you meant :). I am sorry, but I admire Mr. Clark, thanks to whom I might be able to type here now :)...which reminds me, I forgot to put a thank you note for him in my user page. I should be ashamed. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

==POLL==
No, no, no, not what you think! This time is for something that all of us need:

''Improvement of the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> function.''

Please weigh in at [[Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#Poll]]![[User:NikoSilver| NikoSilver ]] [[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]] 18:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

==How to make little box==

Hey I'm zastavafan76 and if you don't remember me I'm the person who was editing the [[Kosovo War]] article, and remember how I deleted the kosovo history box and you put it back and then someone put it as a link? Can you tell me html code to make a box like that? I'd appreciate. thanks

-[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]] {{flagicon|Serbia}}

:Hey Jatroxoursox, you can just go to the template, edit the page and copy it off that and test around with it. A 10 year old would know that, no offense though since you're new to Wikipedia. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 02:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== Question ==

Hey Ilir. Question, do you use msn? (I mean msn messenger or windows messenger). Also I fixed up my version of the Kosovo introduction, though I think its better than the others. Tell me what you think? Bye. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 02:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== What? ==

No, I have nothing with Kosovo - I've been there only several times - I do not draw origin from it, nor do I know anything about the Kosovo War in person (or anything similiar). Stop acusing me of being propagandist - haven't you ever had a feeling that maybe '''''you''''' were being subject to propaganda as well (consider that I have '''never''' even openly said this to you -''ever''). What I bother is the current Albanian government of Kosova. No, I haven't seen in person many of the things - but Kosova's Premier, Agin Ceku? I know ''all'' about him. His past is enough. Remember when he said ''...hopes that Serbs will not look at his past, but at the democratic future of Kosova..''. He just wants his black past closed (like Milo Djukanovic). A man under his command killed my relative. I've seen him in action in the Croatian Civil War - and the man is terror itself - the Croat soldiers that served under him feared him. The actual fact that he was involved in one (if not the) bloodiest invasions/military operations of Modern Europe - Operation Storm - is enough. I am not ''being bombarded'' - I just cannot trust a demon set loosse and allegedly "good now". --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

==Yoohooo==
Hey Ilir were ya been? World's been kinda bland without ya lol, all the Albanians have mysteriously disappeared. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

== Albright ==

You may find the following excerpt interesting:

In a 1996 interview with "60 Minutes," Albright responded, "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it" when asked about the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children due to sanctions placed on Iraq. [http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084].

I guess I know how you can support her now. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 02:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:CrnaGora

2006-06-12T00:03:49Z

C-c-c-c: /* You don't understand.. */

{{userpageinfo
| purge = yes
}}

{|class="wikitable"

|<div id="shortcut" style="border: 1px solid #CC9; margin: 0em 1em 0em 1em; text-align: center; padding:5px; clear: both; background-color: Red">
This is the talk page of CrnaGora. Please feel free to question or comment my actions. Also, feel free to question or comment me. Just ask me, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible. Please post new messages to the bottom of my talk page. I will respond at your talk page unless you request otherwise. Thank you. 
<div style="text-align: right">''</div>
</div>
|
{| class="infobox" width="270px"
|-
!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]] [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
----
|-
|
# [[User_talk:CrnaGora/Archive1|June 17, 2005 - December 26, 2005 (As Dbalic)]]
# [[User_talk:CrnaGora/Archive2|December 26, 2005 - May 1, 2006]]
# [[User_talk:CrnaGora/Archive3|May 1, 2006 - June 8, 2006]]
# [[User_talk:CrnaGora|June 8, 2006 - ]]

|}
|}
 

==Vote on Wikipedia in Montenegrin==

CrnaGora,

Thanks for letting me know about the vote for Montenegrin in Wikipedia. i believe that it will help wikipedia become a more multi-langual website if montenegrin is added. I think it's a good idea. I'm voting yes for Wikipedia na Crno Gorski

-'''[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]]''' {{flagicon|Serbia}}

===Problems===

So far the editing page part that you need to do in order to vote for some reason I can't do it on my comp. I'll figure it out soon, sorry for delay.

-'''[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]]''' {{flagicon|Serbia}}

'''Nevermind.''' I got it, I voted for the montenegrin. Hope our votes win.

-'''[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]]''' {{flagicon|Serbia}}

Now we can officially be branded as idiots in the Balkans, because of adding another wikipedia like that one. Big deal if it is a different [[dialect]]. There is already a Serbian wikipedia... A Croatian one, no problem... Then a Bosnian one... Even Serbo-Croatian. And to top it off, maybe a Montenegrin one? Why not have an American wikipedia, or a Canadian one... Or an Australian wikipedia. Think about it, "Zastavafan". Besides that, people in Montenegro even say they speak a language called "Serbian". (The majority). What does that tell you? --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 04:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

== Kosovo/a ==

Thanks for contributing to the talk page. I do not misunderstand your intentions, and you are welcome to contribute further. And yes, it is headache-giving at times, and not the most pleasant environment to participate in, I know :). Best regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

== Monte-wiki ==

I'm sorry,m but I can't vote for it '''yet''' - I have to wait and see the forming of the Montenegrin language '''''first'''''. I hope that you understand. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

== AID ==

<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0 10%;">
{| class="notice noprint" id="{{{id}}}" style="background: #ffccFF; border: 1px solid #ff33FF; margin: 0 auto;"
|-
| [[Image:AIDlogo2.png|none|50px| ]]
| Thank you for your support of the '''[[Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive|Article Improvement Drive]]'''. This week '''[[Recycling]]''' was selected to be improved to [[Wikipedia:Featured articles|featured article]] [[Wikipedia:What is a featured article|status]]. Hope you can help…
|}
</div>

==You're 12..==

I won't believe anything else.:)) Cheers [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 07:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

== You don't understand.. ==

'''so do I''', the situation is that we '''''do not''''' have a Montenegrin language keyboard - how will we type ''zj'', ''sj'' and ''dz'' - when they donot exist? I do not understand, how can we run a Montenegrin wikipedia, when we '''''cannot''''' type? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 10:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the least of CrnaGora's problems:P [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 00:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Talk:District of Mitrovica

2006-06-12T00:02:38Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Mitrovica District to Talk:District of Kosovska Mitrovica: English name

Mitrovica District

2006-06-12T00:02:38Z

C-c-c-c: moved Mitrovica District to District of Kosovska Mitrovica: English name

[[Image:RR MI.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Mitrovica District]]
'''Mitrovica District''' (Kosovska Mitrovica District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :
* [[Mitrovicë|Mitrovicë]] / [[Kosovska Mitrovica]]
* [[Vushtrria|Vushtrri]] / [[Vučitrn]]
* [[Zubin Potok]] / [[Zubin Potoku|Zubin Potok]]
* [[Zvečan]] / [[Zveçani|Zveçan]]
* [[Leposavić]] / [[Leposaviqi|Leposaviq]]
* [[Skenderaji|Skenderaj]] / [[Srbica]]

==External links==
*[http://www.mitrovica-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Mitrovica]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sq:Mitrovica]]

Kosovo Protection Corps

2006-06-12T00:01:21Z

C-c-c-c:

[[Image:Logo_kpc.gif|right|thumb|Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC or TMK in Albanian) Logo]]

'''The Kosovo Protection Corps''' officially came into being on [[September 21]], [[1999]] with the promulgation of an [[UNMIK]] Regulation and the Statement of Principles providing provisional legal status for the Corps within [[Kosovo]]. The Special Representative of the [[UN Secretary-General]] will exercise direction, funding and administrative authority over the Kosovo protection Corps. The Commander of the Kosovo Force will exercise day-to-day supervision of the Corps.

The Kosovo Protection Corps will:
*Provide a disaster response capability, including for major fires, and industrial accidents or spills.
*Conduct search and rescue operations.
*Provide humanitarian assistance in isolated areas.
*Assist in de-mining.
*Contribute to rebuilding infrastructure and communities.

The Kosovo Protection Corps has no role in defence, law enforcement, riot control, internal security or any other task involved in the maintenance of law and order.

==External links==
*[http://www.nato.int/kfor/kfor/kpc/unmik_reg_99_8.htm UNMIK Regulation No. 1999/8 on the Establishment of the Kosova Protection Corps]
*[http://www.nato.int/kfor/kfor/kpc/images/kpc_stru_reg.gif Structure of the Kosova Protection Corps]

[[da:TMK]]
[[de:Kosovo-Schutzkorps]]
[[sq:Trupat Mbrojtëse të Kosovës]]

[[Category:Military of Kosovo]]

Orahovica

2006-06-11T23:51:47Z

C-c-c-c: ahh more

'''Orahovica''' ({{coor dms|45|32|24|N|17|53|5|E}}) is a city in [[Slavonija]], [[Croatia]]. It is located on the northern slopes of mount [[Krndija]], 20 km northwest of [[Našice]]; elevation 183 m. President of Croatia [[Stipe Mesić]] was born here.

First mentioned in [[1228]] as a feudal estate. Chief occupations are farming (wheat, industrial crops and fodder), vegetable growing, viticulture, fruit growing and livestock breeding. Manufactures include wood processing (panel-parquet), building material (bricks), ceramics (tiles) and metal processing. Orahovica is located on the main road (M3) [[Varaždin]]-[[Koprivnica]]-Našice-[[Osijek]].

The nearby large Orahovačko Lake with a restaurant offers various forms of recreation, especially during the warm season of the year, as well as fishing. Fishing opportunities are offered also on the nearby fishpond Grudnjak. The area of Papuk and the hunting ground Jasenovaca are rich in game.

{{Croatia-geo-stub}}

[[Category:Cities in Croatia]]

[[hr:Orahovica]]
[[hu:Orahovica]]
[[ro:Orahovica]]
[[sr:Ораховица]]
[[sh:Orahovica]]
[[sv:Orahovica]]

Orahovica

2006-06-11T23:51:02Z

C-c-c-c: this isn't german wikipedia....few people use this word in english

'''Orahovica''' ({{coor dms|45|32|24|N|17|53|5|E}}) is a city in [[Slavonija]], [[Croatia]]. It is located on the northern slopes of mount [[Krndija]], 20 km northwest of [[Našice]]; elevation 183 m. President of Croatia [[Stipe Mesić]] was born here.

First mentioned in [[1228]] as a feudal estate. Chief occupations are farming (wheat, industrial crops and fodder), vegetable growing, viticulture, fruit growing and livestock breeding. Manufactures include wood processing (panel-parquet), building material (bricks), ceramics (tiles) and metal processing. Orahovica is located on the main road (M3) [[Varaždin]]-[[Koprivnica]]-Našice-[[Osijek]].

The nearby large Orahovačko Lake with a restaurant offers various forms of recreation, especially during the warm season of the year, as well as fishing Angling opportunities are offered also on the nearby fishpond Grudnjak. The area of Papuk and the hunting ground Jasenovaca are rich in game.

{{Croatia-geo-stub}}

[[Category:Cities in Croatia]]

[[hr:Orahovica]]
[[hu:Orahovica]]
[[ro:Orahovica]]
[[sr:Ораховица]]
[[sh:Orahovica]]
[[sv:Orahovica]]

User talk:Ilir pz

2006-06-11T22:06:06Z

C-c-c-c: /* What? */

User talk:Meelosh

2006-06-11T21:57:50Z

C-c-c-c: /* CG Wikipedia */

==Welcome==

[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome]] to Wikipedia, Meelosh! My name is Ryan, aka [[User:Acetic Acid|Acetic Acid]]. I noticed that you were new and haven't received any messages yet. I just wanted to see how you were doing. Wikipedia can be a little intimidating at first, since it uses different formatting than other sites that use [[HTML]] and [[Cascading Style Sheets|CSS]]. In the long run, though, you'll find that the WikiSyntax is a lot easier and faster than those other ways. Here are a few links to get you started:

*[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]]
*[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]]

There are a lot of policies and guides to read, but I highly recommend reading over those first. If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|talk page]]. Please be sure to [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name on Talk Pages]] using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, along with a link to your user page. This way, others know when you left a message and how to find you. It's easier than having to type out your name, right? :)

I hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. We can use all the help we can get! Have a nice day.
Sincerely, [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|Acetic]][[User:Acetic_Acid/Gifts_and_Awards|']][[User:Acetic Acid|Acid]] 14:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
:Hey, you're welcome! As for your edits, I'm afraid they can't be carried over. The closest thing to this that is available is having your username changed, but as IP addresses don't count as username, it won't work. Sorry about that. Anyway, we're happy to have you as a registered user now. [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|Acetic]][[User:Acetic_Acid/Gifts_and_Awards|']][[User:Acetic Acid|Acid]] 19:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

==Belgrade Arena==

I like the look very much! Thank you for expanding it, I created it because I don't like red links in my Eurobasket 2005 article :). --[[User:Hurricane Angel|Hurricane Angel]] 22:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

==DYK==
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.png|Updated DYK query]]
|'''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' has been updated. A fact from the article '''[[2005 European Volleyball Championship]]''', which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the [[Main Page]]. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on [[:Template talk:Did you know|the "Did you know?" talk page]].
|}

== Greetings ==

Greetings; why not include yourself on [[Category:Wikipedians_in_Serbia_and_Montenegro]]? You could also put sh ([[Serbo-Croatian]]) on your wiki-babel if you feel like it. Happy New Year and all the best. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 16:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy New Year To You Too!!! [[User:Luka Jačov|Luka Jačov]] 02:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

== Article Improvement Belgrade ==
You may wish to vote for Belgrade at the Article Improvement Drive page, [[Wikipedia:Article_Improvement_Drive#Belgrade|here]]. --[[User:Estavisti|estavisti]] 21:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

==Invitation==
Hello! I invite you to join the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Serbia|WikiProject Serbia]]. All the best, --[[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 02:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== CG Wikipedia ==

Hey Miloš, there is currently a vote for a version of Wikipedia in Montenegrin. If you want to vote, go to [[meta:Requests for new languages]]. There you can vote. Ask your friends on Wikipedia (if you have any) who haven't voted to vote. Thanks. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 03:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh...would you like to take out an ad in the New York Times or something as well? [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Meelosh

2006-06-11T21:57:29Z

C-c-c-c: /* CG Wikipedia */

==Welcome==

[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome]] to Wikipedia, Meelosh! My name is Ryan, aka [[User:Acetic Acid|Acetic Acid]]. I noticed that you were new and haven't received any messages yet. I just wanted to see how you were doing. Wikipedia can be a little intimidating at first, since it uses different formatting than other sites that use [[HTML]] and [[Cascading Style Sheets|CSS]]. In the long run, though, you'll find that the WikiSyntax is a lot easier and faster than those other ways. Here are a few links to get you started:

*[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]]
*[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]]

There are a lot of policies and guides to read, but I highly recommend reading over those first. If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|talk page]]. Please be sure to [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name on Talk Pages]] using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, along with a link to your user page. This way, others know when you left a message and how to find you. It's easier than having to type out your name, right? :)

I hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. We can use all the help we can get! Have a nice day.
Sincerely, [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|Acetic]][[User:Acetic_Acid/Gifts_and_Awards|']][[User:Acetic Acid|Acid]] 14:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
:Hey, you're welcome! As for your edits, I'm afraid they can't be carried over. The closest thing to this that is available is having your username changed, but as IP addresses don't count as username, it won't work. Sorry about that. Anyway, we're happy to have you as a registered user now. [[User Talk:Acetic Acid|Acetic]][[User:Acetic_Acid/Gifts_and_Awards|']][[User:Acetic Acid|Acid]] 19:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

==Belgrade Arena==

I like the look very much! Thank you for expanding it, I created it because I don't like red links in my Eurobasket 2005 article :). --[[User:Hurricane Angel|Hurricane Angel]] 22:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

==DYK==
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.png|Updated DYK query]]
|'''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' has been updated. A fact from the article '''[[2005 European Volleyball Championship]]''', which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the [[Main Page]]. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on [[:Template talk:Did you know|the "Did you know?" talk page]].
|}

== Greetings ==

Greetings; why not include yourself on [[Category:Wikipedians_in_Serbia_and_Montenegro]]? You could also put sh ([[Serbo-Croatian]]) on your wiki-babel if you feel like it. Happy New Year and all the best. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 16:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy New Year To You Too!!! [[User:Luka Jačov|Luka Jačov]] 02:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

== Article Improvement Belgrade ==
You may wish to vote for Belgrade at the Article Improvement Drive page, [[Wikipedia:Article_Improvement_Drive#Belgrade|here]]. --[[User:Estavisti|estavisti]] 21:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

==Invitation==
Hello! I invite you to join the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Serbia|WikiProject Serbia]]. All the best, --[[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 02:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== CG Wikipedia ==

Hey Miloš, there is currently a vote for a version of Wikipedia in Montenegrin. If you want to vote, go to [[meta:Requests for new languages]]. There you can vote. Ask your friends on Wikipedia (if you have any) who haven't voted to vote. Thanks. [[Image:Flag of Montenegro.svg|25px]] [[Image:Coat of arms of Montenegro.svg|22px]] [[User:CrnaGora|Crna Gora]] ([[User talk:CrnaGora|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/CrnaGora|Contribs]]/[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?dbname=enwiki_p&user=CrnaGora Edit Count]) 03:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh...would you like to take out an add in the New York Times or something as well? [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla

2006-06-11T21:46:55Z

C-c-c-c:

{{Redirect|Tesla}}
{{expert}}

{{Infobox Celebrity
| name = Nikola Tesla
| image = Nikola Tesla.jpg
| caption = <div style="font-size: 90%">"''I have harnessed the [[cosmic ray]]s and caused them to operate a motive device.''" - Nikola Tesla; Brooklyn Eagle, [[July 10]], [[1931]].</div>
| birth_date = [[9 July|9]]/[[10 July]] [[1856]]
| birth_place = [[Smiljan]], [[Austrian Empire]] (now [[Croatia]])
| death_date = circa [[January 7]], [[1943]]
| death_place = [[New York City]], [[New York]], [[USA]]
| occupation = [[inventor]], [[Physicist]], [[mechanical engineer]] and [[electrical engineer]]
| salary =
| networth =
| spouse =
| website =
| footnotes =
}}
'''Nikola Tesla''' ([[Smiljan]], near [[Gospic]], [[Austrian Empire]] (now [[Croatia]]), [[July 10]], [[1856]] – c. [[January 7]], [[1943]] in [[New York]]) was a [[Serbia|Serbian]]-[[United States|American]] [[inventor]], [[physicist]], [[mechanical engineer]] and [[electrical engineer]].

His nationality is disputed between [[Croatians]] and [[Serbs]]. Tesla himself said that he was equally proud of his Serbian blood as of his Croatian homeland.

Tesla is recognized among the most accomplished scientists of the late [[19th century|19th]] and early [[20th century|20th]] centuries. [[Tesla patents|His patents]] and theoretical work form the basis of modern [[alternating current]] [[electric power]] (AC) systems, including the [[polyphase system|polyphase]] [[power distribution]] systems and [[Electric motor#AC motors|AC motor]], with which he contributed to the [[Second Industrial Revolution]].

In the [[United States of America|United States]], Tesla's fame rivaled that of any other inventor or scientist in [[history]] or in [[popular culture]]. After his demonstration of [[Transmission (telecommunications)|wireless communication]] in [[1893]] and after being the victor in the "[[War of Currents]]", he was widely respected as America's greatest [[electrical engineer]]. Much of his early work pioneered modern electrical engineering and many of his discoveries were of groundbreaking importance. Never putting a large focus on his finances, Tesla died impoverished and forgotten at the age of 86. In his later years, Tesla was regarded as a ''[[mad scientist]]'' and became noted for making bizarre claims about possible scientific developments. <ref>Childress, David Hatcher, (ed.) "''The Tesla Papers: Nikola Tesla on Free Energy & Wireless Transmission of Power''". Adventures Unlimited Press, 2000. ISBN 0932813860</ref><ref>Lomas, Robert, "''[http://www.robertlomas.com/Tesla/Independent_Article.html The essay]''", Spark of genius. Independent Magazine, [[21 August]] [[1999]].</ref>

Tesla's legacy can be seen across [[Modern world|modern civilization]] wherever electricity is used. Aside from his work on [[electromagnetism]] and engineering, Tesla is said to have contributed in varying degrees to the fields of [[robotics]], [[ballistics]], [[computer science]], [[nuclear physics]], and [[theoretical physics]]. Many of his achievements have been used, with some [[controversy]], to support various [[pseudoscience]]s, [[Unidentified flying object|UFO theories]], and [[New Age]] [[occult]]ism.

== Early years ==
Tesla was born in a [[Serbs|Serbian]] family in the village Smiljan near [[Gospić]], in the [[Lika]] region of the [[Austrian Empire]] (today in [[Croatia]]). He was [[baptism|baptised]] in the [[Serbian Orthodox Church]]. His baptism certificate reports that he was born on June 28, 1856 ([[Julian calendar]]); July 10 in the [[Gregorian calendar]], and [[infant baptism|christened]] by the [[Serbian Orthodox Church|Serbian Orthodox]] priest, Toma Oklobdžija. His father was Rev. Milutin Tesla, a priest in the Serbian Orthodox Church Metropolitanate of [[Sremski Karlovci]]. His mother was [[Duka Mandic|Đuka Mandić]], herself a daughter of a Serbian Orthodox Church priest. She was talented in making home craft tools. His godfather, Jovan Drenovac, was a captain in the army protecting the [[Military Frontier]]. Tesla was one of five children, having one brother and three sisters. His family moved to Gospić in 1862. Tesla went to school in [[Karlovac]], then studied [[electrical engineering]] at the [[Graz University of Technology|Austrian Polytechnic]] in [[Graz]], [[Austria]] (1875). While there, he studied the uses of alternating current. Tesla engaged in reading many works, memorizing complete books.
[[Image:Tesla young.JPG|thumb|right|140px|''Nikola Tesla'' in his early adolescence.]]

Tesla related in his autobiography that he experienced detailed moments of inspiration. From an early age Tesla would visualise an invention in his brain in precise form before moving to the construction stage; a technique which is sometimes known as [[picture thinking]]. <ref>Tesla, Nikola, "''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/energy.htm The Problem of Increasing Human Energy]''", ''Century'' Illustrated Magazine, June 1900.</ref>

In 1881 he moved to [[Budapest]] to work for a [[Telegraphy|telegraph]] company, the American Telephone Company. There, he met Nebojša Petrovič, then a young inventor from Australia. Although their encounter was brief, they did work on a project together using twin turbines to create continual power. On the opening of the [[telephone]] exchange in Budapest, 1881, Tesla became the chief electrician to the company, and was later engineer for the country's first telephone system. He also developed a device that, according to some, was a [[telephone]] [[repeater]] or [[amplifier]], but according to others could have been the first [[loudspeaker]]. <ref>"''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/teslafaq/q&a_040.htm Did Tesla really invent the loudspeaker?]''". Twenty First Century Books, Breckenridge, CO 80424-2001.</ref> For a while he stayed in [[Maribor]], where he was first employed as an assistant engineer. He suffered a [[nervous breakdown]] during this time.

In 1882 he moved to [[Paris, France]] to work as an engineer for the [[Continental Edison Company]], designing improvements to electric equipment. In the same year, Tesla conceived of the induction motor and began developing various devices that use [[rotating magnetic field]]s (for which he received patents in 1888).

Soon thereafter, Tesla hastened from Paris to his mother's side as she lay dying, arriving hours before her death in 1882. Her last words to him were, ''"You've arrived, Nidžo, my pride."'' After her death, Tesla fell ill. He spent two to three weeks recuperating in Gospić and the village of ''Tomingaj'' near Gračac, the birthplace of his mother.

In 1884, when Tesla first arrived in the US, he had little besides a letter of recommendation from [[Charles Batchelor]], his manager in his previous job. In the letter of recommendation to [[Thomas Edison]], Charles Batchelor wrote, "I know two great men and you are one of them; the other is this young man." Edison hired Tesla to work for his company [[Edison Machine Works]]. Tesla's work for Edison began with simple electrical engineering and quickly progressed to solving the company's most difficult problems. Tesla was offered to undertake a complete redesign of the Edison company's [[direct current]] [[electrical generator|generator]]s.

After Tesla described the nature of the benefits from his proposed modifications, Edison offered him the then-staggering sum of $50,000 (at least $1 million today, adjusted for inflation[http://www.westegg.com/inflation/]) if they were successfully completed. Tesla worked nearly a year to redesign them and gave the Edison company several enormously profitable new patents in the process. When Tesla inquired about the $50,000, Edison replied to him, "''Tesla, you don't understand our American humor,''" and reneged on his promise. Edison reportedly offered to raise Tesla's salary by $10 per week as a compromise - at which rate it would have taken almost 100 years to earn the money Edison had originally promised. Tesla resigned on the spot.

{| class="toccolours" style="float:right; margin: 0 0 1em 1em; width:246px; text-align:left; clear:right;"
|'''Electromechanical devices and principles developed by Nikola Tesla''':
----
* various devices that use [[rotating magnetic field]]s (1882)
* [[induction motor]] and "high" frequency [[alternator]]
* means for increasing the intensity of electrical [[oscillation]]s
* [[alternating current]] long-distance electrical transmission system (1888) <ref>Tesla, Nikola, "''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/system.htm A New System of Alternating Current Motors and Transformers]''". American Institute of Electrical Engineers, May 1888.</ref>
* [[Tesla coil]]
* [[Tesla turbine|bladeless turbine]]
* [[bifilar coil]]
* [[Telegeodynamics]]
* [[system]]s for [[wireless]] [[communication]] ([[prior art]] for the [[invention of radio]]) and radio frequency [[electronic oscillator|oscillator]]s
* [[robot]]ics and the "AND" [[logic gate]] <ref>"''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/teslafaq/q&a_024.htm Tesla's invention of the AND logic gate]''". Twenty First Century Books, Breckenridge, CO. (''ed''., this pertains to the {{US patent|723188}} and {{US patent|725605}})</ref>
* [[X-ray]]s Tubes using the [[bremsstrahlung]] process
* devices for [[ion]]ized [[gas]]es
* devices for [[Electric field gradient|high field emission]]
* devices for [[charged particle beam]]s
* methods for providing extremely low level of resistance to the passage of electrical current (predecessor to [[superconductivity]])
* [[voltage]] multiplication [[Electrical network|circuit]]ry
* devices for high [[voltage]] discharges
* devices for [[lightning]] protection
* [[Magnifying Transmitter]]
* [[VTOL]] aircraft
* [[Dynamic theory of gravity]]
* concepts for [[electric vehicles]]
|-
|}

== Middle years ==
In 1886, Tesla formed his own company, ''[[Tesla Electric Light & Manufacturing]]''. The initial financial [[investor]]s disagreed with Tesla on his plan for an alternating current motor and eventually relieved him of his duties at the company. Tesla worked in [[New York]] as a common laborer from 1886 to 1887 to feed himself and raise capital for his next project. In 1887, he constructed the initial [[brush (electric)|brush]]less alternate-current [[induction motor]], which he demonstrated to the ''American Institute of Electrical Engineers'' (now [[Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers|IEEE]]) in 1888. In the same year, he developed the principles of his [[Tesla coil]] and began working with [[George Westinghouse]] at [[Westinghouse Electric Corporation|Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Company]]'s [[Pittsburgh]] labs. Westinghouse listened to his ideas for polyphase systems which would allow transmission of alternating current electricity over large distances.
[[Image:Ttesla.jpg|thumb|left|220px|Tesla working in his lab]]
In April of 1887, Tesla began investigating what would later be called [[X-ray]]s using his own single node [[vacuum tube]]s (similar to his patent #514170). This device differed from other early X-ray tubes in that they had no target electrode. The modern term for the phenomenon produced by this device is ''[[bremsstrahlung]]'' (or ''braking radiation''). We now know that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of [[field emission]] and [[thermionic emission]]. Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high [[electric field]] near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil, generating X-rays as they collide with the glass envelope. He also used [[Geissler tube]]s. By 1892, Tesla became aware of what [[Wilhelm Röntgen]] later identified as effects of X-rays.

Tesla commented on the hazards of working with ''single node'' X-ray producing devices, incorrectly attributing the skin damage to [[ozone]] rather than the radiation: ''"As to the hurtful actions on the skin... I note that they have been misinterpreted... They are not due to the Röntgen rays, but merely to the ozone generated in contact with the skin. [[Nitrous acid]] may also be responsible, but to a small extent".'' (Tesla, in Electrical Review, [[30 November]] [[1895]]). Tesla later observed an assistant severely "burnt" by X-rays in his lab. He performed several experiments (including [[photograph]]ing the bones of his hand; later, he sent these images to Röntgen) but didn't make his findings widely known; much of his research was lost in the 1895 [[Houston Street]] lab fire.

On [[July 30]], [[1891]], he became a naturalized citizen of the United States at the age of 35. Tesla established his [[Fifth Avenue (Manhattan)|35 South Fifth Avenue]] laboratory in New York during this same year. Later, Tesla would establish his Houston Street laboratory in New York at 46 E. [[Houston Street]]. He lit vacuum tubes wirelessly at both of the New York locations, providing evidence for the potential of wireless power transmission. Around this time, Tesla developed a close and lasting friendship with [[Mark Twain]]. They spent a lot of time together in Tesla's lab and elsewhere. <ref>Krumme, Katherine, ''[http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/dept/Courses/E-24/E-24Projects/Krumme1.pdf Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla: Thunder and Lightning]''. [[December 4]], [[2000]] ([[Portable Document Format|PDF]])</ref> Some of Tesla's closest friends were artists. He befriended [[The Century Magazine|Century Magazine]] editor [[Robert Underwood Johnson]], who adapted several Serbian poems of [[Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj|Jovan Jovanović Zmaj]] (which Tesla translated). Also during this time, Tesla was influenced by the [[Vedanta|Vedic philosophy]] teachings of the [[Swami Vivekananda]]. <ref>[[Toby Grotz|Grotz, Toby]], "''[http://arizonaenergy.org/CommunityEnergy/INFLUENCE%20OF%20VEDIC%20ON%20TESLA'S%20UNDERSTANDING%20OF%20FREE%20ENERGY.htm The Influence of Vedic Philosophy on Nikola Tesla's Understanding of Free Energy]''".</ref>
[[Image:US390721.png|thumb|left|200px|Nikola Tesla's generation system using AC circuits to transport [[energy]] across great distances. It is contained in US390721.]]

When Tesla was 36 years old, the first patents concerning the polyphase power system were granted. He continued research of the system and rotating magnetic field principles. Tesla served as the vice president of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers (now part of the [[IEEE]]) from 1892 to 1894. From 1893 to 1895, he investigated [[high frequency]] alternating currents. He generated AC of one million [[volt]]s using a conical Tesla coil and investigated the ''[[skin effect]]'' in [[Conductor (material)|conductors]], designed tuned circuits, invented a machine for inducing sleep, cordless gas discharge lamps, and transmitted electromagnetic energy without wires, effectively building the first [[transmitter|radio transmitter]]. In [[St. Louis, Missouri|St. Louis]], [[Missouri]], Tesla made a demonstration related to [[radio]] communication in 1893. Addressing the [[Franklin Institute]] in [[Philadelphia]], [[Pennsylvania]] and the [[National Electric Light Association]], he described and demonstrated in detail its principles. Tesla's demonstrations were written about widely through various media outlets.

At the 1893 [[World's Fair]], the [[World's Columbian Exposition]] in [[Chicago, Illinois]], an international exposition was held which for the first time devoted a building to electrical exhibits. It was a historic event as Tesla and [[George Westinghouse]] introduced visitors to AC power by using it to illuminate the Exposition. On display were Tesla's [[fluorescent light]]s and single node bulbs. Tesla also explained the principles of the ''rotating magnetic field'' and ''[[induction motor]]'' by demonstrating how to make an egg made of [[copper]] stand on end in his demonstration of the device he constructed known as the "''[[Egg of Columbus]]''".

Also in the late 1880s, Tesla and Edison became adversaries in part due to Edison's promotion of direct current (DC) for [[electric power]] distribution over the more efficient alternating current advocated by Tesla. As a result of the "[[War of Currents]]," Edison and Westinghouse were almost [[bankrupt]], so in 1897, Tesla released Westinghouse from contract, providing Westinghouse a break from Tesla's patent [[royalties]]. Also in 1897, Tesla researched [[Particle radiation|radiation]] which led to setting up the basic formulation of [[cosmic ray]]s. <ref>Waser, André, "''Nikola Tesla’s Radiations and the Cosmic Rays''".</ref>

When Tesla was 41 years old, he filed the first basic [[radio]] patent ({{US patent|645576}}). A year later, he demonstrated a [[radio control]]led boat to the US military, believing that the military would want things such as radio controlled [[torpedo]]es. Tesla developed the "''Art of Telautomatics''", a form of [[robotics]]. <ref>Tesla, Nikola, "''[http://www.teslaplay.com/autobody.htm My Inventions]''", Electrical Experimenter magazine, Feb, June, and Oct, 1919. ISBN 0910077002 (teslaplay.comversion; [http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/tesla/ntesla-autobiography.html also the version at rastko.org])</ref> In 1898, a radio-controlled boat was demonstrated to the public during an electrical exhibition at [[Madison Square Garden]]. These devices had an innovative [[coherer]] and a series of [[logic gate]]s. Radio remote control remained a novelty until the 1960s. In the same year, Tesla devised an "electric igniter" or [[spark plug]] for [[Internal combustion engine|Internal combustion]] [[gasoline]] engines. He gained {{US patent|609250}}, "Electrical Igniter for Gas Engines", on this [[ignition system|mechanical ignition system]].

== Colorado Springs ==
{{main|Magnifying Transmitter}}

[[Image:Tesla colorado 444px.jpg|250px|thumb|left|Publicity picture of a participant sitting in his laboratory in Colorado Springs with his "[[Magnifying Transmitter]]" generating millions of volts of electricity. The arcs are about 7 meters (22 ft) long. (Tesla's notes identify this as a [[double exposure]].)]]

In 1899, Tesla decided to move and began research in [[Colorado Springs, Colorado]], where he could have room for his high-voltage high-frequency experiments. Upon his arrival he told reporters that he was conducting [[wireless telegraphy]] experiments transmitting signals from [[Pikes Peak]] to Paris. Tesla's diary contains explanations of his experiments concerning the [[ionosphere]] and the ground's [[telluric current]]s via [[transverse wave]]s and [[longitudinal wave]]s. <ref>Tesla, Nikola, "''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/wireless07.htm The True Wireless]''". Electrical Experimenter, May 1919. ([http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art06.html also at pbs.org])</ref>

Tesla, at his lab, proved that the earth was a [[Conductor (material)|conductor]] and produced artificial [[lightning]] (with the discharges consisting of millions of volts and up to 135 feet long). <ref>Gillispie, Charles Coulston, "''Dictionary of Scientific Biography''"; ''Tesla, Nikola''. Charles Scribner's Sons, New York. ISBN 0684129256</ref>. Tesla also investigated atmospheric electricity, observing lightning signals via his receivers. Reproductions of Tesla's receivers and coherer circuits show an unpredicted level of complexity (e.g., [[Distributed element model|distributed]] [[Q factor|high-Q]] [[Helix|helical]] [[cavity resonator|resonator]]s, [[radio frequency]] [[feedback]], crude [[heterodyne]] effects, and [[Regenerative circuit|regeneration techniques]]). <ref>Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, and A. H. Aidinejad, "''Atmospheric Fields, Tesla's Receivers and Regenerative Detectors''". 1994.</ref> Tesla stated that he observed [[stationary wave]]s during this time. <ref>Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, "''Nikola Tesla, Lightning Observations, and Stationary Waves''". 1994.</ref>

In the Colorado Springs lab, he "recorded" signals of what he believed were [[extraterrestrial]] radio signals, though these announcements and his data were rejected by the scientific community. He noted measurements of repetitive signals from his receiver which are substantially different from the signals he had noted from storms and earth noise. Specifically, he later recalled that the signals appeared in groups of one, two, three, and four clicks together. Tesla spent the latter part of his life trying to signal Mars. In 1996 Corum and Corum published an analysis of [[Jupiter|Jovian]] [[Jupiter#Magnetosphere|plasma torus]] signals which indicate that there was a correspondence between the setting of Mars at Colorado Springs, and the cessation of signals from Jupiter in the summer of 1899 when Tesla was there. <ref>Tesla, Nikola, "''[http://earlyradiohistory.us/1901talk.htm Talking with Planets]''". Collier's Weekly, February 19, 1901. (EarlyRadioHistory.us)</ref><ref>Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, "''[http://www.teslasociety.com/mars.pdf The Electrical Signals of Planetary Origins]''".</ref>

Tesla left Colorado Springs on [[January 7]], [[1900]]. The lab was torn down and its contents sold to pay debts. The Colorado experiments prepared Tesla for his next project, the establishment of a [[wireless power transmission]] facility that would be known as Wardenclyffe. Tesla was granted {{US patent|685012}} for the means for increasing the intensity of electrical oscillations. The [[United States Patent Office]] classification system currently assigns this patent to the primary Class 178/43 ("telegraphy/space induction"), although the other applicable classes include 505/825 ("low temperature superconductivity-related apparatus").

== Later years ==
[[Image:BrochureWardenclyffe_.PNG|thumb|246px|right|Tesla's [[Wardenclyffe Tower]] located in [[Shoreham, New York|Shoreham]], [[Long Island]], [[New York]].]]

In 1900, with $150,000 (51% from [[J. Pierpont Morgan]]), Tesla began planning the ''[[Wardenclyffe Tower]]'' facility. In June 1902, Tesla's lab operations were moved to Wardenclyffe from Houston Street. The tower was finally dismantled for scrap during wartime. Newspapers of the time labeled Wardenclyffe "Tesla's million-dollar folly." In 1904, the US Patent Office reversed its decision and awarded [[Guglielmo Marconi]] the patent for radio, and Tesla began his fight to re-acquire the radio patent. On his 50th birthday in 1906, Tesla demonstrated his 200 [[horsepower|hp]] (150 kW) 16,000 rpm [[tesla turbine|Bladeless Turbine]]. During [[1910]]-1911 at the ''Waterside Power Station'' in New York, several of his bladeless turbine engines were tested at 100-5000 hp. Due to the fact that the [[Nobel Prize]] was awarded to Marconi for radio in [[1909]], it was believed that Tesla and Edison were to share the [[Nobel Prize in Physics|Nobel Prize of 1912]] (and, later alone, in [[Nobel Prize in Physics|Nobel Prize of 1915]]). Tesla's rumored nominations for the Nobel Prize in Physics was primarily for his experiments with tuned circuits using high-voltage high-frequency resonant transformers. In 1915, Tesla filed a lawsuit against Marconi attempting, unsuccessfully, to obtain a court injunction against the claims of Marconi. Around 1916, Tesla filed for bankruptcy because he owed so much in back taxes. He was living in poverty.
[[Image:N Tesla.JPG|thumb|left|170px|Tesla's portrait in Paris, sporting the pose he is often immortalized in today.]]

After Wardenclyffe, Tesla built the [[Telefunken]] Wireless Station in Sayville, Long Island. Some of what he wanted to achieve at Wardenclyffe was accomplished with the Telefunken Wireless. In 1917 the facility was seized and torn down by the [[Marines]] because it was suspected that it could be used by German spies.

Prior to the [[World War I]], Tesla looked overseas for investors to fund his research. When the war started, Tesla lost funding he was receiving from his European patents. After the war ended, Tesla made predictions regarding the relevant issues of the post-World War I environment in a printed article ([[December 20]], [[1914]]). Tesla believed that the [[League of Nations]] was not a remedy for the times and issues. Tesla started to exhibit pronounced symptoms of [[obsessive-compulsive disorder]] in the years following. He became obsessed with the number three. He often felt compelled to walk around a block three times before entering a building, demanded a stack of three folded cloth napkins beside his plate at every meal, etc. The nature of OCD was little understood at the time and no treatments were available, so his symptoms were considered by some to be evidence of partial [[insanity]] and this undoubtedly hurt what was left of his reputation.

At this time, he was staying at the [[Waldorf-Astoria Hotel]], renting in an arrangement for deferred payments. Eventually, the Wardenclyffe deed was turned over to [[George Boldt]], proprietor of the Waldorf-Astoria to pay a $20,000 debt. In 1917, around the time that the Wardenclyffe Tower was demolished by Boldt to make the land a more viable real estate asset, Tesla received [[American Institute of Electrical Engineers|AIEE]]'s highest honor, the [[Edison Medal]].

Tesla, in August 1917, first established principles regarding frequency and power level for the first primitive [[radar]] units. <ref>Page, R.M., "''The Early History of Radar''", Proceedings of the IRE, Volume 50, Number 5, May, 1962, (special 50th Anniversary Issue).</ref> In 1934, [[Emile Girardeau]], working with the first French radar systems, stated he was building radar systems "''conceived according to the principles stated by Tesla''". By the [[1920|twenties]], Tesla was reportedly negotiating with the [[United Kingdom]] government about a ray system. Tesla had also stated that efforts had been made to steal the so called "death ray". It is suggested that the removal of the [[Chamberlain]] government ended negotiations.
[[Image:Teslathinker.jpg|thumb|right|175px|Nikola Tesla, with [[Rudjer Boscovich]]'s book ''Theoria Philosophiae Naturalis'', in front of the spiral coil of his high-frequency transformer at East Houston Street, New York.]]
On Tesla's seventy-fifth birthday in 1931, [[Time magazine]] put him on its cover. <ref>"''[http://www.teslasociety.com/time.jpg Tribute to Nikola Tesla]''". Tesla Society. [''ed''., site contains a picture of the magazine]</ref> The cover caption noted his contribution to electrical power generation. Tesla received his last patent in 1928 for an apparatus for aerial transportation which was the first instance of [[Vertical take-off and landing|VTOL]] [[aircraft]]. In 1934, Tesla wrote to consul Janković of his homeland. The letter contained the message of gratitude to [[Mihajlo Pupin]] who initiated a donation scheme by which American companies could support Tesla. Tesla refused the assistance, and chose to live by a modest pension received from Yugoslavia and to continue researching.

===Field theories===

When he was eighty-one, Tesla stated he had completed a [[dynamic theory of gravity]]. He stated that it was "''worked out in all details''" and hoped to give to the world the theory soon. [http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/articles/19370710.doc] The theory was never [[publish]]ed. At the time of his announcement, it was considered by the scientific establishment to exceed the bounds of reason. Some believe that Tesla never fully developed the Unified Field Theory.

While Tesla had "worked out a dynamic theory of gravity" that he soon hoped to give to the world, he died before he publicized any details. Few details were revealed by Tesla about his theory in the announcement. Tesla's critique in the announcement was the opening clash between him and modern experimental physics. Tesla may have viewed his principles in such a manner as to not be in conflict with other modern theories (besides Einstein's). Tesla's theory is ignored by some [[research]]ers (and mainly disregarded by [[physicist]]s).

The bulk of the theory was developed between [[1892]] and [[1894]], during the period that he was conducting experiments with [[high frequency]] and high [[potential]] electromagnetism and patenting devices for their utilization. It was completed, according to Tesla, by the end of the 1930s. Tesla's theory explained gravity using [[electrodynamics]] consisting of [[transverse wave]]s (to a lesser extent) and [[longitudinal wave]]s (for the majority). Reminiscent of [[Mach's principle]], Tesla stated in [[1925]] that,

: ''There is no thing endowed with life - from man, who is enslaving the elements, to the nimblest creature - in all this world that does not sway in it's turn. Whenever action is born from force, though it be infinitesimal, the cosmic balance is upset and the universal motion results.''
[[Image:tesla-coil-discharge.jpg|thumb|right|250px|[[Electric discharge]] showing the [[lightning]]-like [[Plasma (physics)|plasma]] filaments from a [[Tesla coil]]. (Click image for detail)]]
Tesla, concerning [[Albert Einstein]]'s [[Theory of relativity|relativity theory]], stated that '...the relativity theory, by the way, is much older than its present proponents. It was advanced over 200 years ago by my illustrious countryman [[Boskovic]], the great philospher, who, not withstanding other and multifold obligations, wrote a thousand volumes of excellent literature on a vast variety of subjects. [[Boskovic]] dealt with relativity, including the so-called time-space continuum...', (1936 unpublished interview, quoted in Anderson, L, ed. Nikola Tesla: Lecture Before the New York Academy of Sciences: The Streams of Lenard and Roentgen and Novel Apparatus for Their Production, [[April 6]] [[1897]], reconstructed 1994).

Tesla was critical of Einstein's relativity work,

: ''...[a] magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king...., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists...'' (New York Times, [[July 11]] [[1935]], p23, c.8).

Tesla also stated that:
: ''I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.'', (New York Herald Tribune, [[September 11]] [[1932]])

== Death and afterwards ==
[[Image:Teslabust.jpg|thumb|left|Bust of Tesla by [[Ivan Meštrović]], [[1952]].]]
Tesla died of [[heart failure]] alone in the [[New Yorker Hotel]], some time between the evening of [[January 5]] and the morning of [[January 8]], [[1943]], at the age of 86. Despite selling his AC electricity patents, Tesla was essentially destitute and died with significant debts. Later that year the [[Supreme Court of the United States|US Supreme Court]] upheld Tesla's patent number [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=645576.WKU.&OS=PN/645576&RS=PN/645576 645,576] in effect recognizing him as the inventor of radio.

Immediately after Tesla's death became known, the [[Federal Bureau of Investigation]] instructed the [[Office of Alien Property]] to take possession of his papers and property, despite his US citizenship. At the time of his death, Tesla had been working on what he claimed was a ''[[teleforce]]'' weapon, or ''[[death ray]]''. It appears that his proposed death ray was related to his research into [[ball lightning]] and [[Plasma (physics)|plasma]]. After the FBI was contacted by the War Department, his papers were declared to be [[Classified information|top secret]]. All of his personal effects were seized on the advice of presidential advisors, and [[J. Edgar Hoover]] declared the case "most secret", because of the nature of Tesla's inventions and patents. <ref>Hoover, John Edgar, et al., [http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/tesla.htm FOIA FBI files], 1943.</ref>

[[Image:Statue of Nikola Tesla in Niagara Falls State Park.jpg|thumb|Statue of Nikola Tesla in [[Niagara Falls State Park]]]]
Tesla's Serbian-Orthodox family and the Yugoslav embassy struggled with the American authorities to gain these items after his death due to the potential significance of some of his research. Eventually, his nephew, Sava Kosanoviċ, got possession of some of his personal effects which are now housed in the [[Nikola Tesla Museum]] in Belgrade, Serbia. <ref>[http://www.tesla-museum.org/ Nikola Tesla Museum]</ref> Tesla's funeral took place on [[January 12]], [[1943]], at the [[Cathedral of Saint John the Divine]] in [[Manhattan]], New York City. After the funeral, his body was cremated. His ashes were taken to Belgrade, Yugoslavia in 1957. The urn was placed in the Nikola Tesla museum, where it resides to this day.
Tesla did not like to pose for portraits. He did it only once for princess Vilma Lwoff-Parlaghy, but that portrait is lost. His wish was to have a sculpture made by his close friend, [[Croat]]ian artist [[Ivan Meštrović]], but he died before getting a chance to see it.
Meštrović made a bronze bust (1952) that is held in the Nikola Tesla Museum in Belgrade and a statue (1955/56) placed at the Rudjer Boskovic Institute in [[Zagreb]].
In 1976, a bronze statue of Tesla was placed at [[Niagara Falls, New York]]. A similar statue was also erected in his hometown of Gospić in 1986.

In the years after, many of his innovations, theories and claims have been used, at times unsuitably and with some controversy, to support various fringe theories that are regarded as unscientific. Most of Tesla's own work conformed with the principles and methods accepted by science, but his extravagant personality and sometimes unrealistic claims, combined with his unquestionable genius, have made him a popular figure among fringe theorists and believers in conspiracies about 'hidden knowledge'. Many contemporary admirers of Dr. Tesla have affectionately deemed him "the man who invented the twentieth century". Tesla's house in Smiljan is currently open for visitors as a memorial museum.

==Personal views==
Tesla believed that [[war]] could not be avoided until the cause for its recurrence was removed, but was opposed to wars in general.<ref>Secor, H. Winfield, "''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/electric4.htm Tesla's views on Electricity and the War]''", [[Electrical Experimenter]], Volume 5, Number 4, August, 1917.</ref> He sought to reduce distance, such as in communication for better understanding, transportation, and transmission of energy, as a means to ensure friendly international relations. <ref>"''[http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/articles/19230225.doc Giant Eye to See Round the World]''" Albany Telegram, February 25, 1923. ([[DOC]])</ref>

''"One day man will connect his apparatus to the very wheelwork of the universe... and the very forces that motivate the planets in their orbits and cause them to rotate will rotate his own machinery,"'' he predicted.

Like many of his era, Tesla became a proponent of a self-imposed [[selective breeding]] version of [[eugenics]]. In a 1937 interview, he stated,
: [...] ''man's new sense of pity began to interfere with the ruthless workings of nature. The only method compatible with our notions of civilization and the race is to prevent the breeding of the unfit by sterilization and the deliberate guidance of the mating instinct ''[...]''. The trend of opinion among eugenists is that we must make marriage more difficult. Certainly no one who is not a desirable parent should be permitted to produce progeny. A century from now it will no more occur to a normal person to mate with a person eugenically unfit than to marry a habitual criminal''. <ref>Viereck, George Sylvester, and Nikola Tesla, "''[http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art11.html A Machine to End War] - A Famous Inventor, Picturing Life 100 Years from Now, Reveals an Astounding Scientific Venture Which He Believes Will Change the Course of History''". Liberty, February 1937.</ref>
In 1926, Tesla in an interview, commenting on the ills of the social subservience of women and the struggle of women toward [[gender equality]], indicated that humanity's future would be run by "Queen Bees". He believed that women would become the dominant sex in the future. <ref>Kennedy, John B., "''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/women.htm When woman is boss], An interview with Nikola Tesla''". [[Collier's Weekly|Colliers]], January 30, 1926.</ref>

== Education ==
Tesla was fluent in many languages: [[Serbian language|Serbian]]-[[Croatian language|Croatian]], he also spoke seven other languages: [[English language|English]], [[Czech language|Czech]], [[Hungarian language|Hungarian]], [[French language|French]], [[German language|German]], [[Latin]], and [[Italian language|Italian]].

;Primary
* Elementary school: [[Gospić]]
* Secondary school: [[Karlovac]]

;Degrees
* [[Baccalaureate]] of [[Physics]]: [[Austrian Polytechnic Institute]] ([[Graz]])
* Baccalaureate of [[Mathematics]]: Austrian Polytechnic Institute (Graz)
* Baccalaureate of [[Mechanical Engineering]]: Austrian Polytechnic Institute (Graz)
* Baccalaureate of [[Electrical Engineering]]: Austrian Polytechnic Institute (Graz)

;Graduate studies
* Physics at [[Charles University in Prague]]

;Docteur Honoris Causa
For his work Tesla received numerous [[Honorary degree|honorary doctoral degrees]] from a number of universities to include: [[Columbia University]], [[Graz University of Technology|Graz Polytechnic Institute]],[[University of Zagreb]], [[Universitatea Politehnica Bucureşti|Polytechnic Institute of Bucharest]], [[University of Belgrade]], [[Brno University of Technology|University of Brno]], [[University of Grenoble]], [[University of Paris]], [[University of Poitiers|University de Poitiers]], [[Charles University in Prague]], [[University of Sofia]], [[Vienna University of Technology|Vienna Polytechnic Institute]], and [[Yale University]]

;Further reading
For a detailed outline of Dr. Tesla's education and certifications, see:

: W.C. Wysock, J.F. Corum, J.M. Hardesty and K.L. Corum, "''[http://www.ttr.com/Who%20Was%20Dr%20Tesla.pdf Who Was The Real Dr. Nikola Tesla]?'' (A Look At His Professional Credentials)". Antenna Measurement Techniques Association, posterpaper, [[October 22]]-[[October 25|25]], [[2001]] ([[Portable Document Format|PDF]])

== Recognition and honors ==
;Scientific societies
As the result of his achievements in the development of electricity and radio, Nikola Tesla received many awards and accolades. He was selected as a fellow of the [[IEEE]] (at the time the [[AIEE]]) and was awarded its most prestigious prize, the [[Edison Medal]]. He was also made a fellow of the [[American Association for the Advancement of Science]], and accepted invitations to become a member of the [[American Philosophical Society]], and the [[Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts]]. Because of his research in [[electrotherapy]] and his invention of high frequency oscillators, he was also made a fellow of the [[American Electro-Therapeutic Association]].
;SI Unit
The scientific compound derived [[SI]] unit measuring [[magnetic flux density]] or [[magnetic]] induction (commonly known as the [[magnetic field]] '''B'''), the [[tesla (unit)|tesla]], was named in his honor (at the ''Conférence Générale des Poids et Mesures'', [[Paris]], 1960).
;IEEE Nikola Tesla Award
In 1975 the [[Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers]] (IEEE) created a [[IEEE Nikola Tesla Award|Nikola Tesla Award]] via an agreement between the IEEE Power Engineering Society and the IEEE Board of Directors. It is given to individuals or a team that has made outstanding contributions to the generation or utilization of [[electric power]]. The Tesla award is considered the most prestigious award in the area of electric power.
<ref>IEEE, "''[http://www.ieee.org/portal/site/mainsite/menuitem.818c0c39e85ef176fb2275875bac26c8/index.jsp?&pName=corp_level1&path=about/awards/sums&file=tesla.xml&xsl=generic.xsl IEEE Nikola Tesla Award]''. Apr 01, 2005.</ref>
;Airport
On February 1, the Serbian government approved a plan to officially rename Belgrade International Airport to Nikola Tesla airport. This shall officially occur on July 10, 2006 in honor of his 150th birthday.
;Yugoslavian/Serbian currency
[[Image:Serbia100Dinara.jpg|thumb|100 Serbian dinars front. Photo courtesy of [[National Bank of Serbia]]<ref>[http://www.nbs.org.yu National Bank of Serbia]</ref>.]]
[[Image:Serbia100Dinars.jpg|thumb|100 Serbian dinars back. Note the drawing of the electric motor.]]
Nikola Tesla was featured on the currency of the former Yugoslavia. The current 100 [[Serbian dinar]] banknotes issued by the [[National Bank of Serbia]] have a picture of a handsome young Tesla on the obverse (front side). On the reverse side there is portion of drawing of an induction motor from his patent application and a photograph of Tesla holding a [[gas filled tube]] emitting light as a result of electric induction.

;Cosmological objects
The [[Tesla (crater)|Tesla crater]] on the far side of the [[moon]] and the [[minor planet]] [[2244 Tesla]] are named after Tesla.

;Electric power stations
Two of the [[coal]] fired power stations run by [[Electric Power Industry of Serbia]], [[TPP Nikola Tesla A]] and [[TPP Nikola Tesla B]], are named in honor of Tesla. <ref>[http://www.eps.co.yu/about/nikola_tesla.php Electric Power Industry of Serbia (EPS)]</ref>

;Commerce
The Croatian subsidiary of [[Ericsson]] is named '''[[Ericsson Nikola Tesla]] d.d.''' ('''Nikola Tesla''' was a phone hardware company in [[Zagreb]] before Ericsson bought it in 1990s) in honour of Nikola Tesla's pioneering work in wireless communication.

;Science fiction and computer games
Tesla technology is recurring in [[alternate history (fiction)|alternate history]] works like [[steampunk]], or stories concerning secret pre [[WWII]] technology:
* Tesla appears as a character in the 1995 novel ''[[The Prestige]]'' by [[Christopher Priest (English novelist)|Christopher Priest]].
* Tesla also makes a brief appearance as a character in the 1989 novel ''[[Moon Palace]]'' by [[Paul Auster]].
* Tesla is a continuing character in a series of novels by [[Spider Robinson]] concerned with [[Callahan's Crosstime Saloon]].
* In the [[ZBS]] series of audio plays ''The Adventures of Ruby'', Tesla is considered to be the deity of technicians and engineers and can be summoned with a special chant near a reproduction of a Tesla Coil.
* The superperson Nikola Tesla is a [[Japan]]ese comic ([[manga]]).
* Tesla is a character in the [[DC Comics]] [[Elseworlds]] story, ''[[JLA]]: Age of Wonder''
* In the [[White Wolf]] roleplaying game [[Mage: the Ascension]], Nikola Tesla is mentioned as being one of the most respected members of the [[Sons of Ether]] Tradition.
* The Tesla Gun in the computer game ''[[Return to Castle Wolfenstein]]'' is a weapon that projects lightning-like electrical arcs.
* The Tesla Armor of the ''Fallout'' series of computer games provides excellent protection against laser and plasma/electrical attack types.
* Two weapons in the Ratchet & Clank video game series, the Tesla Claw and Tesla Barrier (the upgraded version of the Shield Charger), use electricity to attack enemies
* In the computer game [[Arcanum]], two of the technological schematics available to Electrical Technologists are the Tesla Rod (a staff which fires bolts of electricity) and the Tesla Gun (a Tesla Rod combined with a Looking-Glass Rifle; effectively an energy rifle).
* In the game Tomb Raider Legend (Lara's Seventh Adventure), Lara visits Kazakhstan where she utilises a magnetic recoil gun, which draws in and propels out magnetic objects. The scene also features a large Tesla coil/generator.
* In the [[Command & Conquer]] [[Command & Conquer: Red Alert|Red Alert]] series of video games, "Tesla" is the name of the technology the [[Soviets]] use to generate power and for their lightning-based weapons. Perhaps the most widely known example is the Tesla Coil defense structure, capable of sending short eletrical bolts towards oncoming units.
* Many other computer games feature devices with "Tesla" in the name.
* A reference to Tesla's "Legendary Death Ray" is made in the film [[The Librarian: Quest for The Spear]] (2004), in which the actual prototype is housed in the massive library of artifacts and books, which also includes such artifacts (fabled, or otherwise) as [[The Ark of the Covenant]] and [[Excalibur]].
* In [[Tomb Raider: Legend]] [[Lara Croft]] has to investigate Tesla's facility in Kazhakastan in order to uncover an ancient artifact which is powering the Tesla plant's main weapons array.
* In [[Martian Dreams]], Tesla has a minor role as the head of a rescue team sent to Mars.
* In ''[[The Five Fists of Science]]'' Tesla teams up with [[Mark Twain]] to battle [[Thomas Edison]].

;Arts
*The rock band [[Tesla (band)|Tesla]] is named after him. They referenced his life and works a number of times, such as in the song "Edison's Medicine" (and accompanying music video) and the album ''[[The Great Radio Controversy]]''.
*The British pop group [[Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark]] released a single from their 1984 album ''Junk Culture'' called "Tesla Girls". The song included the lyrics: 'Tesla girls tesla girls/Testing out theories/Electric chairs and dynamos/Dressed to kill they’re killing me'.
*The one-man synth pop force [[Joy Electric]] recorded a song titled Nikola Tesla on the 2004 album "Hello Mannequin." The song uses Tesla as an example to how some important figures in history are often overlooked and forgotten about.
*Jack White of the rock band 'the White Stripes' has a keen interest in the life and works of Nicola Tesla. This is reflected in some aspects of his work, for example in the song 'Astro' (found on the band's eponymous debut) White sings "Maybe Tesla does the astro/Maybe Edison is AC/DC". The home page of the bands website is also adorned with a representation of Tesla's Wardenclyffe Tower. Furthermore, there are suggested parallels between White and Tesla as both have adopted a rather eccentric and somewhat avant-garde approach to their respective fields which is not (or was not) easily accepted by some.
*Additionally, Jack and sister Meg White made an appearance with a Tesla Coil in a vignette in the independent film [[Coffee and Cigarettes]]
*Australian Composer [[Constantine Koukias]] wrote his two-act [[opera]] ''TESLA - Lightning in his Hand'' about the life and times of Nikola Tesla. It premiered at the [[10 Days on the Island Festival]] in Hobart, Tasmania in 2003. Tesla was a professor of electrical engineers and is a member of the I.S.A. (International Scientists Association).
*[[The Handsome Family]]'s 2006 album Last Days Of Wonder features a song called 'Tesla's Hotel Room'. The album takes it's title from the lyrics of the song.

== Further readings and films ==
;Movies and Films
There are at least two films describing Tesla's life. In the first, arranged for TV, Tesla was portrayed by [[Rade Serbedzija|Rade Šerbedžija]]. In [[1980]], [[Orson Welles]] produced a [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia|Yugoslavia]]n film named ''Tajna Nikole Tesle'' (The Secret of Nikola Tesla), in which Welles himself played the part of Tesla's patron, J.P. Morgan.

A [[2006]] [[Christopher Nolan]] film called ''[[The Prestige]]'', based on the Christopher Priest novel of the same title mentioned above, will feature rock star and actor [[David Bowie]] playing the part of Nikola Tesla.

Nikola Tesla is also referred to in the sketch "Jack Shows Meg His Tesla Coil" from [[Jim Jarmusch]]'s film ''[[Coffee and Cigarettes]]'' Featuring [[Jack White]] and [[Meg White]] of [[The White Stripes]].

American film director [[Michael Almereyda]] was signed to a literary agency on the strength of a spec script on the life of Nikola Tesla.

A reference to Tesla's "Legendary Death Ray" is made in the film ''[[The Librarian: Quest for The Spear]]'' (2004), in which the actual prototype is housed in the massive library of artifacts and books, which also includes such artifacts (fabled, or otherwise) as [[The Ark of the Covenant]] and [[Excalibur]].

''Documentary film''
* "''[http://www.pbs.org/tesla/boutiq/index.html Tesla: Master of Lightning]''". 1999. ISBN 0760710058 (Book) ISBN 0793635497 (PBS Video)
'''Books'''
* [[Leland Anderson|Anderson, Leland I.]], "''Dr. Nikola Tesla (1856-1943)''", 2d enl. ed., Minneapolis, Tesla Society. 1956. LCCN 56047430 /L
* Cheney, Margaret, "''Tesla: Man Out of Time''", ISBN 0-13-906859-7
* Childress, David H., "''The Fantastic inventions of Nikola Tesla''". ISBN 0-932813-19-4
* Glenn, Jim, "''The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla''", ISBN 1-566192-66-8
* Martin, Thomas C., "''The Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nikola Tesla''". ISBN 0-880298-12-X
* [[John H. O'Neill|O'Neill, John H.]], "''Prodigal Genius''". ISBN 0-914732-33-1
* Seifer, Marc J., "''Wizard, the Life and Times of Nikola Tesla''". ISBN 1-559723-29-7 (HC), ISBN 0-806519-60-6 (SC)
* Tesla, Nikola, "''Colorado Springs Notes, 1899-1900", ISBN 0-899187-82-X
* Tesla, Nikola, "''My Inventions'", ISBN 1-599869-94-2
* [[Thomas Valone|Valone, Thomas]], "''Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature''". ISBN 1-931882-04-5
'''Magazines'''
* Carlson, W. Bernard, "''Inventor of dreams''". [[Scientific American]], March 2005 v292 i3 p78(7).
* Jatras, Stella L., "''The genius of Nikola Tesla''". [[The New American]], July 28, 2003 v19 i15 p9(1)
* Rybak, James P., "''Nikola Tesla: Scientific Savant''". [[Popular Electronics]], 1042170X, Nov99, Vol. 16, Issue 11.
* Lawren, B., "''Rediscovering Tesla''". [[Omni (magazine)|Omni]], Mar88, Vol. 10 Issue 6.

== Notes ==
<references />
== Sources ==
'''General information'''
''Biographies''
* Martin, Thomas Commerford, "''The Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nikola Tesla''", reprinted by Barnes & Noble, 1995 ISBN 0-88029-812-X
* Cheney, Margaret & Uth, Robert, "''Tesla, Master of Lightning''", published by Barnes & Noble, 1999 ISBN 0-7607-1005-8
* O'Neill, John J., "''[http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/tesla/oniell-tesla.html Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola]''", 1944. ISBN 0913022403 (Tesla reportedly said of this biographer "You understand me better than any man alive"; also [http://www.uncletaz.com/library/scimath/tesla/ the version at uncletaz.com] with other items at uncletaz's site])
* Lomas, Robert, "''[http://www.robertlomas.com/Tesla/presentation/index.htm The Man who Invented the Twentieth Century]''". Lecture to South Western Branch of Instititute of Physics.
* Pratt, H., "''Nikola Tesla 1856-1943''", Proceedings of the IRE, Vol. 44, September, 1956.
* Germano, Frank, "''[http://www.frank.germano.com/nikolatesla.htm Dr. Nikola Tesla]''". Frank.Germano.com.
* "''[http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/collection/people.php?taid=&id=1234597&lid=1 Nikola Tesla]''". IEEE History Center, 2005.
* Weisstein, Eric W., "''[http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Tesla.html Tesla, Nikola (1856-1943)]''". Eric Weisstein's World of Science.
* Penner, John R.H. ''[http://www.tfcbooks.com/special/mi_link.htm The Strange Life of Nikola Tesla]'', corrupted version of My Inventions.

''Other Research''
*"''Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature''", [http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/moon/mooncrat.html Moon Nomenclature: Crater]. USGS, Astrogeology Research Program.
*Dimitrijevic, Milan S., "''Belgrade Astronomical Observatory Historical Review''". Publ. Astron. Obs. Belgrade, 60 (1998), 162-170. Also, "''Srpski asteroidi, [http://www.astronomija.co.yu/suncsist/asteroidi/srbi.htm#Tesla Tesla]''". Astronomski magazine.
* Hoover, John Edgar, et al., [http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/tesla.htm FOIA FBI files], 1943.
* Pratt, H., "''Nikola Tesla 1856-1943''", Proceedings of the IRE, Vol. 44, September, 1956.
* W.C. Wysock, J.F. Corum, J.M. Hardesty and K.L. Corum, "''[http://www.ttr.com/Who%20Was%20Dr%20Tesla.pdf Who Was The Real Dr. Nikola Tesla]?'' (A Look At His Professional Credentials)". Antenna Measurement Techniques Association, posterpaper, October 22-25, 2001 (PDF)
* Roguin, Ariel, "''Historical Note: Nikola Tesla: The man behind the magnetic field unit''". J. Magn. Reson. Imaging 2004;19:369-374. © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
* Sellon, J. L., "''The impact of Nikola Tesla on the cement industry''". Behrent Eng. Co., Wheat Ridge, CO. Cement Industry Technical Conference. 1997. XXXIX Conference Record., 1997 IEEE/PC. Page(s) 125-133. ISBN 0-7803-3962-2
* Valentinuzzi, M.E., "''Nikola Tesla: why was he so much resisted and forgotten?''" Inst. de Bioingenieria, Univ. Nacional de Tucuman; Engineering in Medicine and Biology Magazine, IEEE. Jul/Aug 1998, 17:4, p 74-75. ISSN 0739-5175

;''Cosmic Rays''
* Waser, André, "''[http://www.aw-verlag.ch/Documents/TeslasRadiationsAndCosmicRays01.PDF Nikola Tesla’s Radiations and the Cosmic Rays]''". (PDF)

;''Views on War''
* Secor, H. Winfield, "''Tesla's views on Electricity and the War''", Electrical Experimenter, Volume 5, Number 4, August, 1917.
* Florey, Glen, "''Tesla and the Military''". Engineering 24, December 5, 2000.

;''Stationary and scalar waves''
* Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, "''Nikola Tesla, Lightning Observations, and Stationary Waves''". 1994.
* Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, and A. H. Aidinejad, "''Atmospheric Fields, Tesla's Receivers and Regenerative Detectors''". 1994.
* Meyl, Konstantin, H. Weidner, E. Zentgraf, T. Senkel, T. Junker, and P. Winkels, "''Experiments to proof the evidence of scalar waves Tests with a Tesla reproduction''". Institut für Gravitationsforschung (IGF), Am Heerbach 5, D-63857 Waldaschaff.

;''Radio waves''
* Anderson, L. I., "''John Stone Stone on Nikola Tesla’s Priority in Radio and Continuous Wave Radiofrequency Apparatus''". The Antique Wireless Association Review, Vol. 1, 1986, pp. 18-41.
* Anderson, L. I., "''Priority in Invention of Radio, Tesla v. Marconi''". Antique Wireless Association monograph, March 1980.
* Marincic, A., and D. Budimir, "''Tesla's contribution to radiowave propagation''". Dept. of Electron. Eng., Belgrade Univ. (5th International Conference on Telecommunications in Modern Satellite, Cable and Broadcasting Service, 2001. TELSIKS 2001. pg., 327-331 vol.1) ISBN 0-7803-7228-X
* Page, R.M., "''The Early History of Radar''", Proceedings of the IRE, Volume 50, Number 5, May, 1962, (special 50th Anniversary Issue).

;''Induction motor''
* C Mackechnie Jarvis "''Nikola Tesla and the induction motor''". 1970 Phys. Educ. 5 280-287.

;''Other''
* "''[http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/articles/19230225.doc Giant Eye to See Round the World]''" (DOC)
* Nichelson, Oliver, "''Nikola Tesla's Energy Generation Designs''", Eyring, Inc., Provo, Utah.
* Nichelson, Oliver, "''The Thermodynamics of Tesla's Fuelless Electrical generator''". American Fork, Utah. (American Chemical Society, 1993. 2722-5/93/0028-63)
* Toby Grotz, "''[http://www.sumeria.net/free/sanskrit.html The Influence of Vedic Philosophy on Nikola Tesla's Understanding of Free Energy]''".

==External links==
{{commons}}
{{Wikibooks|Biography of Nikola Tesla}}
{{Wikiquote|Nikola Tesla}}
<div class="infobox sisterproject">[[Image:wikisource-logo.jpg|left|50px|]]
<div style="margin-left: 60px;">[[Wikisource]] has original text related to this article:
<div style="margin-left: 10px;">'''''[[Wikisource:Author:Nikola Tesla|Nikola Tesla]]'''''</div>
</div>
</div>
''History and family''
*[http://www.jutarnji.hr/nedjeljni_jutarnji/clanak/art-2006,5,20,budisavljevic_tesla,27153.jl Tesla's relative Boško Budisavljević lives in [[Zagreb]] [[Croatia]] - about Tesla's Croatian homeland and Serbian parents (newspaper ''Jutarnji list'')]- text is on croatian language.
* The Tesla Memorial Society: Nikola Tesla - The Genius Who Lit the World "''[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2256433507046558974&q=Nikola+Tesla]''".
* Wagner, John W., "''[http://www.ntesla.org/ Nikola Tesla, Forgotten American Scientist]''".
* Vujovic, Ljubo, "''[http://www.teslasociety.com/ Tesla Memorial Society of New York]''", New York, USA.
* "''[http://www.teslascience.org/ The Tesla Wardenclyffe Project]''". Shoreham, New York. (Aims to reuse [[Wardenclyffe Tower|Wardenclyffe]].)
*"''[http://www.serbnatlfed.org/Archives/Tesla/tesla-father.htm Nikola Tesla's Father - Milutin Tesla (1819 - 1879)]''". Serb National Federation.
* Kosanovic, Bogdan R., "''[http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~bogdan/tesla/index.htm Serbian-American inventor, electrical engineer, and scientist]''". December 29, 2000.
* Mrkich, D., "''[http://www.serbnatlfed.org/Archives/Tesla/TeslaBook.htm Tesla - The European Years]''", Serb National Federation.
''Patents''
* Pepe, "''[http://www.tesla.hu/ Pepe's Tesla Pages]''", 2004-12-25.
** [http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/tesla.htm Nikola's Page] (Hungarian - original images of text)
* Fred Walters' hand-scanned [http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/ Tesla patents] (PDFs)
* Jim Bieberich's [http://web.mit.edu/most/Public/Tesla1/alpha_tesla.html The Complete Nikola Tesla U.S. Patent Collection]

''Radio shows''
* Science Friday, "''[http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Aug/hour2_080798.html Strange Scientists]''", [[August 7]], [[1998]]
* Science Friday, "''[http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1995/Oct/hour2_101395.html The Science of Radio]''", [[October 13]], [[1995]]
* Ockhams Razor, "''[http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s690290.htm Nikola Tesla -- The Unknown Inventor]''"

''Other''
* [http://www.opendepth.com/ExperimentsAC_Nikola_Tesla_Biography Biography of Nikola Tesla], from [http://www.opendepth.com/ExperimentswithAC Experiments with Alternate Currents of High Potential and High Frequency].
* [http://www.tesla-museum.org/ The Nikola Tesla museum]
* [http://www.flyingmoose.org/truthfic/tesla.htm Nikola Tesla Story]: Tells more about Tesla and Edison.
* Seifer, Marc J., and Michael Behar, [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.10/tesla.html Electric Mind], Wired Magazine, October 1998.
* Palmer, Stephen E., "''[http://supernaturalminds.com/Wardenclyffe.html Wardenclyffe: Nikola Tesla's Dream For Free Energy And The Conspiracy Which Destroyed It]''".
* {{gutenberg author| id=Nikola+Tesla | name=Nikola Tesla}}
* [http://www.rudemechs.com/shows/history/requiem_03.htm Requiem for Tesla]: a play created by Rude Mechanicals in Austin, Texas 2001, 2003
* [http://www.opendepth.com/node/46 Various writings and lectures] by Nikola Tesla
*[http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d8047.htm Kenneth M. Swezey Papers], 1891-1982, Archives Center, National Musuem of American History, archival resources.
* [http://www.inet.hr/9a6aa/9a150nt Nikola Tesla Special Event Amateur Radio Station 9A150NT] (celebrating Tesla's 150th birthday)
* [http://www.NikolaTeslaInventorsClub.com Nikola Tesla Inventors Club]

[[Category:1856 births|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:1943 deaths|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:American inventors|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:American physicists|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Autodidacts|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Eastern Orthodox Christians|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Electrical engineers|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Fellows of the AAAS|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Fellows of the IEEE|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Naturalized citizens of the United States|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Nikola Tesla|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:People with obsessive-compulsive disorder|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Radio pioneers|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Serbian diaspora|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Serbian inventors|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Serbian physicists|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Serbian scientists|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Serbian-Americans|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Vegetarians|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:National Inventors Hall of Fame|Tesla, Nikola]]
[[Category:Science and technology in Croatia|Tesla, Nikola]]

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Talk:Prishtina District

2006-06-11T21:14:13Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Prishtina District to Talk:Priština District: English Name

#REDIRECT [[Talk:Priština District]]

Talk:District of Pristina

2006-06-11T21:14:13Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Prishtina District to Talk:Priština District: English Name

I do not know is this a proper place for "demographic history" section. I mean, the district was formed by UNMIK in 1999, so what is point of writting what was its population in 1912??? I even doubt that district from 1912 had same borders as the present one. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 15:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Prishtina District

2006-06-11T21:14:13Z

C-c-c-c: moved Prishtina District to Priština District: English Name

#REDIRECT [[Priština District]]

District of Pristina

2006-06-11T21:14:13Z

C-c-c-c: moved Prishtina District to Priština District: English Name

[[Image:RR PR.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Prishtina District]]
'''Prishtina District''' (Priština District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :
* [[Prishtina|Prishtinë]] / [[Priština]]
* [[Obiliqi|Obiliq]] / [[Obilić]]
* [[Fushë Kosova|Fushë Kosovë]] / [[Kosovo Polje]]
* [[Lipjani|Lipjan]] / [[Lipljan]]
* [[Novobërda|Novobërdë]] / [[Novo Brdo]]
* [[Podujeva|Podujevë]] / [[Podujevo]]
* [[Gllogovci|Gllogovc]] / [[Glogovac]]

==Postal Code==
{|border="2" align="left" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="100%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:95%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Postal Code of Kosovo - 10000 Prishtina'''
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!District
!Municipaliti
!Local
!Code
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtina || 10000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 1 || 10010
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || QTP || 10020
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 3 || 10030
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 4 || 10040
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 5 || 10050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 6 || 10060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 7 || 10070
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 8 || 10080
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 9 || 10090
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 10 || 10100
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 11 || 10110
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 12 || 10120
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Prishtinë 13 || 10130
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Graçanica || 10500
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Hajvalia || 10510
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Bardhosh || 10520
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Keçekollë || 10530
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Besianë || 11000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Lluzanë || 11050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Orllan || 11060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Prishtina || Kërpimeh || 11070
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Fsh. Kosovë || Fsh. Kosovë || 12000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Fsh. Kosovë || Fsh. Kosovë || 12010
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Fsh. Kosovë || Sllatin e Madhe || 12050
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Drenas || Drenas || 13000
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Drenas || Komoran || 13050
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Lypjan || Lypjan || 14000
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Lypjan || Janjevë || 14050
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Lypjan || Magure || 14060
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Obiliq || Obiliq || 15000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prishtinë || Obiliq || Muzakaj || 15050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prishtinë || Obiliq || Artanë || 16000
|-
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|Source:The Post Code of Kosovo has been approved by the Univeresal Postal Union (UPU) [http://www.ptkonline.com/web/site/al/pk_sherbimet/15/KodetPostare.pdf Ref: [[Post and Telecom of Kosovo|PTK]]]'''
|}

 

== External links ==
*[http://www.prishtina-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Prishtina]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sq:Prishtina]]

Prizreni District

2006-06-11T21:13:33Z

C-c-c-c: moved Prizreni District to District of Prizren: English name

#REDIRECT [[District of Prizren]]

District of Prizren

2006-06-11T21:13:33Z

C-c-c-c: moved Prizreni District to District of Prizren: English name

[[Image:RR PZ.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Prizreni District]]
'''Prizreni District''' (Prizren District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :
* [[Prizreni|Prizren]] / [[Prizren]]
* [[Dragashi|Dragash]] / [[Dragaš]]
* [[Suhareka|Suharekë]] / [[Suva Reka]]
* [[Malisheva|Malishevë]] / [[Mališevo]]
 
==Postal Code==

{|border="2" align="left" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="100%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:95%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Postal Code of Kosovo - 20000 Prizreni'''
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!District
!Municipaliti
!Local
!Code
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren || 20000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 1 || 20010
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 2 || 20020
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 3 || 20030
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 4 || 20040
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 5 || 20050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 6 || 20060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 7 || 20070
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Prizren 8 || 20080
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Zym || 20510
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Zhur || 20520
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Reçan || 20530
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Prizren || Mamushë || 20540
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Prizren || Korishë || 20550
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Rahovec || 20500
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Rahovec 1 || 20510
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Rahovec 2 || 20520
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Ratkoc || 20530
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Xërxë || 21000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Hoça e Madhe || 21050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Rahovec || Krush e Madhe || 21060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Dragash || Dragash || 22000
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Dragash || Bresanë || 22050
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Dragash || Bellobradë || 22060
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Dragash || Brod || 22070
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Dragash || Krushevë || 22080
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Therandë || Therandë || 23000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Therandë || Mushtishë || 23050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Therandë || Samadraxhë || 23060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Malishevë || Malishevë || 24000
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Prizren || Malishevë || Banjë e Madhe || 24050
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Prizren || Malishevë || Kijevë || 24060
|-
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|Source:The Post Code of Kosovo has been approved by the Univeresal Postal Union (UPU) [http://www.ptkonline.com/web/site/al/pk_sherbimet/15/KodetPostare.pdf Ref: [[Post and Telecom of Kosovo|PTK]]]'''
|}

==External links==
*[http://www.prizreni-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Prizren]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sq:Prizreni]]

Talk:District of Gjilan

2006-06-11T21:12:12Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Gjilani District to Talk:Gnjilane District: English name

Gjilani District

2006-06-11T21:12:11Z

C-c-c-c: moved Gjilani District to Gnjilane District: English name

#REDIRECT [[Gnjilane District]]

District of Gjilan

2006-06-11T21:12:11Z

C-c-c-c: moved Gjilani District to Gnjilane District: English name

[[Image:RR GJI.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Gjilani District]]
'''Gnjilani District''' (Gnjilane District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with Municipalities :
* [[Gjilani|Gjilan]] / [[Gnjilane]]
* [[Kamenica]] / [[Kosovska Kamenica]]
* [[Vitia]] / [[Vitina]]

==External links==
*[http://www.gjilani-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Gjilan]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sq:Gjilani]]

Talk:District of Gjakova

2006-06-11T21:11:40Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Gjakova District to Talk:District of Đakovica: English name

The territory is under temporary UN administration, as ruled in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999[http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/da/kosovo/koso_sc1.htm], where the UN reafirmed its commitment to the [[sovereignty]] and [[territorial integrity]] of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (and its sucessor state, the [[Serbia and Montenegro|Union of Serbia and Montenegro]], after the country changed its name). Therefore, it is not up to the UN to invent new geographical denominations. I also like to remind you that this is English language wikipedia, so please make sure your contributions are up to standard regarding syntax and spelling, together with the use of commonly recognised geographic denominations. Regards, [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] 12:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

::Completely wrong judgement. Kosovo by its constitutional framework is a territory under UN administration. And UN is not inventing new geographical denominations. Instead it is using a double-naming system, which is fair, and was always used in Kosova even before the occupatory regime of Milosevic (whose party you support) was installedin Kosova. Thank you, [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 21:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Gjakova District

2006-06-11T21:11:40Z

C-c-c-c: moved Gjakova District to District of Đakovica: English name

#REDIRECT [[District of Đakovica]]

District of Gjakova

2006-06-11T21:11:40Z

C-c-c-c: moved Gjakova District to District of Đakovica: English name

'''Gjakova District''' (Đakovica District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :
* [[Gjakova]] / [[Đakovica]]
* [[Deçani|Deçan]] / [[Dečani]]
* [[Rahovec]] / [[Orahovac]]
* [[Junik]] / [[Junik]]
 
{|border="2" align="left" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" width="50%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:95%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Postal Code of Kosovo - 50000 Gjakovë'''
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!District
!Municipaliti
!Local
!Code
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova ||50000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 1 ||50010
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 4 ||50040
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 5 ||50050
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 6 ||50060
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 7 ||50070
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 8 ||50080
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 9 ||50090
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Gjakova 10 ||50100
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Gjakova ||Bishtazhin ||50500
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Gjakova ||Deçan ||Deçan ||51000
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|Gjakova ||Deçan ||Junik ||51050
|-
|colspan="10" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|Source:The Post Code of Kosovo has been approved by the Univeresal Postal Union (UPU) [http://www.ptkonline.com/web/site/al/pk_sherbimet/15/KodetPostare.pdf Ref: [[Post and Telecom of Kosovo|PTK]]]'''
|}
{{Kosova District|
emblem = - |
location = RR GJA.PNG |
foto = Gjakova.jpg|
population = 242 077 |
density = 232 |
area = 1042 |
municipality = [[Gjakova]] [[Rahovec|Rahovec]] [[Deçan]] |
adress = Rr. "Nëna Terezë" 469 |
post = 50 000 |
prefix = 0381 / 390 |
officialhomepage = [http://www.gjakova-komuna.org/ Municipality of Gjakova] |
leader = Aqif Shehu |
leaderparty = LDK |
notice = - |
}}

 
==External links==
*[http://www.gjakova-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Gjakova]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]


[[sq:Gjakova]]

District of Ferizaj

2006-06-11T21:10:50Z

C-c-c-c:

[[Image:RR FE.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Uroševac District]]
'''Uroševac District'''(Ferizaji District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :

Albanian name / Serb name

('''bold letters''' indicate the name used by a '''majority''' of their inabitants)
* '''[[Ferizaji|Ferizaj]]''' / [[Uroševac]]
* '''[[Shtimja|Shtime]]''' / [[Štimlje]]
* '''[[Kaçaniku|Kaçanik]]''' / [[Kačanik]]
* [[Shtërpca]] / '''[[Štrpce]]''' (Serb enclave)

==External links==
*[http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Ferizaj]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sr:Урошевац]]
[[sq:Ferizaji]]

District of Ferizaj

2006-06-11T15:37:45Z

C-c-c-c:

[[Image:RR FE.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Ferizaji District]]
'''Uroševac District'''(Ferizaji District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :

Albanian name / Serb name

('''bold letters''' indicate the name used by a '''majority''' of their inabitants)
* '''[[Ferizaji|Ferizaj]]''' / [[Uroševac]]
* '''[[Shtimja|Shtime]]''' / [[Štimlje]]
* '''[[Kaçaniku|Kaçanik]]''' / [[Kačanik]]
* [[Shtërpca]] / '''[[Štrpce]]''' (Serb enclave)

==External links==
*[http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Ferizaj]

{{Kosovo}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sr:Урошевац]]
[[sq:Ferizaji]]

Talk:District of Ferizaj

2006-06-11T15:36:08Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Ferizaji District to Talk:District of Uroševac: English Name

Ferizaj is muncipalty, district and from the peopel ther and out seit the term "Ferizaj" is meaning the Ferizaj city with area (Ferizaj disctrict)--[[User:Ejte|Ejte]] 04:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ferizaji District

2006-06-11T15:36:08Z

C-c-c-c: moved Ferizaji District to District of Uroševac: English Name

#REDIRECT [[District of Uroševac]]

District of Ferizaj

2006-06-11T15:36:08Z

C-c-c-c: moved Ferizaji District to District of Uroševac: English Name

[[Image:RR FE.png|thumb|right|200px|[[Kosovo]], Ferizaji District]]
'''Ferizaji District''' (Uroševac District) is a district in [[Kosovo]] with municipalities :

Albanian name / Serb name

('''bold letters''' indicate the name used by a '''majority''' of their inabitants)
* '''[[Ferizaji|Ferizaj]]''' / [[Uroševac]]
* '''[[Shtimja|Shtime]]''' / [[Štimlje]]
* '''[[Kaçaniku|Kaçanik]]''' / [[Kačanik]]
* [[Shtërpca]] / '''[[Štrpce]]''' (Serb enclave)

==External links==
*[http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality Of Ferizaj]

{{Kosova}}

[[Category:Subdivisions of Kosovo|D]]

[[sq:Ferizaji]]

Naser Orić

2006-06-11T08:30:44Z

C-c-c-c:

[[Image:Oric.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Naser Orić, on trial at the [[ICTY]]]]

'''Naser Orić''' (born [[March 3]], [[1967]]) is a former [[Bosniak]] soldier who is currently a [[war crimes]] indictee at the [[ICTY]].

==Career==

Naser Oric was born on March 3, 1967 in [[Potocari]], a village near [[Srebrenica]]. His parents were Dzemal Oric and Hata Mustafic. Oric went to a trade school where he learned metalworking. 1985-1986 he completed his military service in the armed forces of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] where he was part of a special unit for the nuclear and chemical defense of the [[JNA]], the [[Yugoslav National Army]], where he achieved the rank of Corporal.

In [[1988]], he completed a six month [[training]] course in [[Zemun]], [[Serbia]], and served in [[Savski Venac]] in [[Belgrade]] as a trainee [[policeman]]. As a member of the police unit for special actions, he had courses for two more years. In [[1990]], Naser Oric was deployed to [[Kosovo]] as a member of a police unit for special actions of the [[Ministry of the Interior]] of the [[Republic of Serbia]]. Thereafter, he returned to Belgrade. On [[5 August]] [[1991]], he was transferred to a [[police station]] in [[Ilidza]], on the outskirts of [[Sarajevo]]. In late 1991, Naser Oric was moved to the police station in [[Srebrenica]] and on [[8 April]] [[1992]] was made the [[Police Chief]] of the [[Potocari]] police sub-station.

On April 17, the [[Potocari Territorial Defence]] was created and Oric was made commander. On May 20, Oric was appointed commander of the [[Srebrenica Territorial Defence]]. On June 27, 1992, [[Sefer Halilovic]], the [[Chief of Staff]] of the [[Supreme Command Staff]] of the [[Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina]] ([[ARBiH]]), confirmed Oric as commander. On August 8, 1992, his position as commander was re-confirmed by the Presidency of [[Bosnia-Hercegovina]]. In 1995, the 8th Operation group Srebrenica HQ was re-designated the 2nd Corps, 28th Division. On March 1, 1994, Oric was awarded a “Golden Lily”, the highest military award by Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command. On April 15, 1993, he had been awarded a Certificate of Merit. On July 17, 1994, he was promoted to the rank of [[Brigadier]]. Oric had de facto and de jure control over the Muslim military units and irregulars in the [[Srebrenica]] area, including the two infantry brigades of the 28th Division.

==Sources==

The attacks of Bosnian troops led by Nasir Oric in the Srebrenica area during the period of 1992-1993 have been relatively scantily reported in western press. As UK historian [[Misha Glenny]] explained in his book [[The Fall of Yugoslavia: The Third Balkan War]]: “The Bosnian Government troops moved swiftly through Serbian villages, slaughtering a large number of civilians on the way. Because the atrocities were being perpetrated by Muslims, they received relatively little attention in the world media.”

Instead most of the information on the actions of Naser Oric in eastern Bosnia have been provided by local Serbian sources.

Some of the actions are evident from the ICTY indictment of Oric [http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/ori-ii030328e.htm]:
* Naser Oric "''...commanded all units that were operating within his area of responsibility. This includes all units involved in combat activities in the municipalities of Srebrenica and Bratunac, in particular the combat activities in Rupovo Brdo on 10 June 1992, Ratkovici on 21 and 27 June 1992, Jezestica on 8 August 1992, Fakovici on 5 October 1992, Bjelovac between 14 and 19 December 1992 and Kravica on 7 and 8 January 1993 and all units including the Military Police involved in the detention and custody of Serb individuals in Srebrenica.''"
* "''During the period May 1992 to February 1993, Muslim armed units engaged in various military operations against the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (hereafter: VRS) forces in Eastern Bosnia. In the course of such operations, Muslim armed units in the Municipalities of Bratunac, Srebrenica and Skelani, burnt and otherwise destroyed and plundered '''a minimum of fifty predominantly Serb villages''' and hamlets. As a result, '''thousands of Serb individuals fled the area'''.''"

At the ICTY trial of [[Slobodan Milosevic]] (12 February 2004) the prosecutor Dermot Groome asked the French General [[Philippe Morillon]] a question about the Kravica attack on Orthodox Christmas: "''General, your statement details attacks by Naser Oric, particularly the Orthodox Christmas Eve attack.''" To this Morillon replied: “''The actions that you are referring to were one of the reasons for the deterioration of the situation in the area, especially in the month of January. Naser Oric engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, ''massacring all the inhabitants''.''”

A report by the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation called [http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/ Srebrenica - a safe area] has detailed information on events in and around Srebrenica during the period of time Naser Oric was in command of Bosniak forces there.

==The beginning of the war in Srebrenica==

Following the referendum on independence for Bosnia in March 1992, which the Serb population largely boycotted, the Yugoslav Army (JNA) and Serb paramilitary forces started a campaign to take control over the Drina valley, bordering Serbia. On 17 April 1992 Serb forces overran Bratunac and gave an ultimatum to the mayor of Srebrenica to disarm all militias and hand over power to the Serbs. After this, almost all of the Bosniak elite of Srebrenica, including the mayor, left for Tuzla. In the afternoon of 18 April, the JNA and Serb paramilitary units took control of Srebrenica which offered no resistance. Paramilitary units began to plunder the town. It was only in the town of Potocari and in Stari Grad (the higher, older section of the town of Srebrenica close to the Turkish citadel) that they did not dare to penetrate because of the Muslim militias hiding there.

Part of the population of Srebrenica took flight to the woods and hills in the surrounding area. In a number of villages around Srebrenica, the Bosniak population began to organize local resistance groups.

===Ambush on Serb paramilitaries and police in Potocari===

The first major act of resistance took place on 20 April 1992 in [[Potocari]] when a militia under Naser Oric ambushed a number of vehicles of the [[Arkan Tigers]] and the local Serbian police. At least four Serbs were killed in this ambush. Right after, the JNA started artillery assaults on the Bosniak stronghold of Potocari and surrounding villages.[http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/toc/p2_c02_s003_b01.html]

===Attack on the villages of Gniona and Osmace and fighting in Srebrenica===

On 6 May, Muslims carried out their first counterattack on a Serb village, [[Gniona]], to the north of the town of Srebrenica. It was the first Serb village to be attacked and captured by Oric in this way. It was of strategic importance because it offered access to another centre of Bosniak resistance, [[Suceska]], where [[Zulfo Tursunovic]] defended the town.

On 7 May 1992, a number of Serbs were killed in Srebrenica where the militias of [[Hakija Meholjic]] and [[Akif Ustic]] were fighting around Stari Grad. On the same day Bosniak forces ambushed the village of [[Osmace]] on the way to [[Skelani]], an important communication route for the Serbs. After first cutting off the road between Srebrenica and Bratunac in Potocari, the Bosniak forces now closed off this exit route connecting Srebrenica to the outside world. A number of Serb civilians were allegedly killed in this attack.

This marked the beginning of a series of Serb attacks on Bosniak villages in the municipality Skelani. The attacks began on 8 May 1992 and within a few days more than twenty Muslim villages were completely emptied. Many houses were set on fire, more than 1,300 Bosniaks were transported to Macedonia and another 900 were chased away to other Bosniak villages in the direction of Srebrenica. [http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/toc/p2_c02_s003_b01.html]

[[Image:Oric.JPG|thumb|Commander Oric in 1993 (TVP)]]

===Recapture of Srebrenica===

On 9 May the Bosniak militia of [[Akif Ustic]] captured Srebrenica after the Serb forces had retreated to Bratunac. In the following days, the Bosniaks who had been hiding in the woods for weeks on end emerged and gradually returned to their houses. The Bosniaks held the town for about three years after this, while almost all of the Serb inhabitants fled to Bratunac or elsewhere. Although the Serbs had to abandon Srebrenica, they continued their attacks on the Bosniak villages to the west, north and southeast of Bratunac.

[[Image:Oric2.JPG|thumb|Oric leading a raid on Serbian villages in Eastern Bosnia (TVP)]]

===Naser Oric takes control & the Bosniak counteroffensive===

Starting on 15 May with a series of attacks on Serb villages. The first targets were villages located close to Srebrenica: [[Viogor]], [[Orahovica]] and [[Osredak]]. The objective of these attacks was to establish a connected area which would link the variously located Muslim resistance centres. This intent achieved. On 20 May it was agreed in the village of [[Bajramovici]] to put all of the Bosniak resistance groups under the joint command of Naser Oric.

In the summer and fall of 1992, Bosniak attacks into Serbian areas became increasingly frequent and violent. At the same time, the food situation in Srebrenica became more and more acute, which was a strong incentive for carrying out raids. In addition, revenge also played a role in the attacks on Serb villages. The regular troops were often unable to restrain the large groups of civilians who took part in the attacks.[http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/toc/p2_c02_s004_b01.html]

* On May 21, a truck taking eleven Serbian civilians from [[Podravanje]] to [[Milici]] was attacked and eight Serbs were killed.
* On June 21, in an attack on [[Ratkovici]], 18 Serbs were killed.
* On August 8, 1992, the village of [[Jezestica]] was attacked.
* On June 30, the village of [[Brezani]] was attacked and 19 residents killed.
* On July 5, 1992, the Serb villages of [[Krnjici]] and [[Oricevi]] were attacked and 16 persons killed.

In September 1992 Oric attacked the Serbian village of [[Podravanje]] which was on the road between [[Srebrenica]] and [[Zepa]]. Oric sought to drive out and ethnically cleanse the Serbs from the Srebrenica/Zepa area to clear the road between the two towns. According to Seditic, 31 Serbs were killed in Podrovanje.

On September 24-26, 1992, 37 Serbs were killed when Oric’s forces attacked the villages of [[Nedeljista]] and [[Rogosija]] in the [[Milici]] municipality.

On November 6, 1992, Bosniak forces from Srebrenica attacked and captured the village of [[Kamenica]], and several Bosnian Serb soldiers were captured. When Serb troops recaptured Kamenica in February, 1993, they discovered seven [[mass graves]] containing the bodies of 41 [[Bosnian Serb]] soldiers. The [[exhumed]] bodies were examined by [[pathologist]] [[Major]] [[Zoran Stankovic]], who was able to establish that the arms and legs of the majority of the bodies had been broken and the heads had been smashed and cut off. Some of the bodies still had the wires, belts, and cables, with which they were tied up and tortured. Eight of the bodies were so badly mutilated that they could not be identified. The Bosnian units murdered not only Bosnian Serb civilians, but also Bosnian Serb POWs in violation of the laws and customs of war and the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of POWs.

On December 14 1992 Oric’s forces attacked the Serbian villages astride the Drina River in the village of [[Loznicka Rijeka]].

===Attack on the village of Kravica on Orthodox Christmas===

By the end of 1992 the situation of the Serbs in Bratunac had become very pressed following the Bosniak offensives during the latter part of 1992. According to the [http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/toc/p2_c02_s004_b01.html report] by the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation "''After more than half a year of sallies, thirty Serb villages and seventy hamlets had fallen into Muslim hands and there were only a few places left that were Serb, among them Bratunac. Kravica was one of the last to fall into Muslim hands, on Orthodox Christmas (7 January 1993). There were at least a thousand Serb civilian casualties in all. Consequently, it is understandable that the Serbs saw the situation around Srebrenica as a war of aggression by the Muslims. They felt more and more threatened; many people had lost family or friends; and the humiliation and bitterness experienced as a result of the Muslim attacks was great. Most Serbs sought revenge if the opportunity presented itself.''"

On January 7, 1993, [[Orthodox]] [[Christmas]], Bosniak forces under Oric launched a massive attack against the Serbian village of [[Kravica]], northwest of [[Srebrenica]]. Two weeks before the attack on Kravica, Oric’s forces had taken the neighboring town of [[Glogova]]. The Bosnian troops were able to surround the town and to cut the only asphalt paved road to [[Bratunac]]. The only access to Kravica now was a dirt path that was constructed across the mountains to the Drina River two years earlier. There were about 300 Bosnian Serb defenders at Kravica.

Sudetic described the Bosnian attack on [[Kravica]]: “''Naser Oric had spent days preparing his attack. It came with anything but surprise. After dark on Christmas Eve, some three thousand Muslim troops assembled on the slushy hilltops around Kravica. Behind them lurked a host of torbari who lit campfires to warm themselves. At dawn they started clattering pots and pans. “Allahu ekber! God is great!” the men shouted. The women shrieked. Shooting began. The Serb men in Kravica scrambled into their trenches. They told their wives and mothers they would be home in a few hours.''”

According to Seditic, 45 Serbs were killed in the [[Kravica attack]] of which 35 were soldiers. All 690 houses in Kravica were looted and set on fire. Naser Oric now had occupied 350 square miles of territory in eastern Bosnia.

In the beginning of January 1993, the fall of the Serb stronghold Kravica, which in the past had always been an important symbol of Serb resolve, created a shock wave in Eastern Bosnia. The population of Bratunac panicked and the authorities had to close the bridges over the Drina to prevent people from crossing the river en masse. For the Bosniaks, however, the victory over Kravica was a considerable boost. This conquest allowed Oric to connect with the resistance forces in Konjevic Polje and Cerska, yielding one large Muslim terrain from Zepa and Srebrenica almost to Zvornik.

However, the Serb call for vengeance was great. As a local Serb chronicler wrote, the Serbs were looking forward to the day they would finally be able to take revenge. After Kravica the Muslim attacks continued. Instead of opening a large offensive on Bratunac, Oric decided to strike Skelani.

The objective was to chase the Serb units out of this area and to destroy the bridge over the Drina to prevent the Serbs from gaining reinforcements from Serbia. The attack on Skelani took place on 16 January 1993, and at least 48 Serbs died in this battle. Sudetic described the attack as follows: “''gunfire ripped back and forth across the river, but the Serbs held the Muslims off. During the gun battle, a Muslim machine gunner cut down panicked Serb villagers, including women and children, as they tried to scurry across the bridge to the safety of the Serbian side.''” The attack failed and this marked the beginning of the end of Oric's successes. Public opinion in Serbia was alarmed by the fact that points inside Serbian terrain were targeted, and the VRS and the Yugoslavian army prepared a large joint counteroffensive, led by Ratko Mladic.[http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/toc/p2_c02_s004_b01.html]

==Bosnian Serb counteroffensive==

Sudetic described the effect the border attack had in Serbia: “The stories of the fleeing civilians shot down on the Skelani bridge enraged all of Serbia.” Following these event, the Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic was able to launch a counterattack that drove northwest and pushed the Bosnian forces back into Srebrenica. The Bosnian Serb forces stopped ten miles southwest of Srebrenica. In Srebrenica itself, the Bosnian troops retaliated against Serbian civilians in the town. Sudetic described what happened in Srebrenica as a result of the counterattack: “A double murder had been committed the night before in the apartment building just below the Celik house. A Muslim soldier seeking revenge for the death of a relative, a military-police chief killed near Skelani, had used the butt of his revolver to smash the skulls of a Serb man and his elderly mother.” They were Slobodan Zekic and his mother Zagorka. Dragica Vasic knew them both. Sudetic described the murder: “Dragica had known both of the victims; Slobodan Zekic and his mother, Zagorka, were the second Serb family that Dragica had seen murdered since the war began. Zagorka, an elderly woman, had suffered a stroke and had been bedridden for years; and Slobodan, a middle-aged former factory worker, had stayed on in Srebrenica to care for her.”

By February 9, 1993 the Bosnian Serb military commander [[Ratko Mladic]] launched a full-scale counteroffensive against Oric’s troops. Five days later, Bosnian Serb troops took the town of [[Kamenica]] north of [[Srebrenica]]. Foreign journalists escorted to the Kamenica area by the Serb army were shown corpses that had been devoured by animals and other bodies that had been pulled from a pond and exhumed from three muddy graves on a forested ridge. The Bosnian Serbs alleged that the bodies belonged to prisoners whom the Bosniaks had tortured and killed.

== Naser Oric and the Srebrenica Safe Haven ==

On April 17, 1993, [[Srebrenica]] was made a “[[safe haven]]”, but Bosnian forces continued to kill Bosnian Serb civilians and engage in sabotage activities. On May 27, 1995, Bosnian forces from Srebrenica allegedly attacked the village of [[Rupovo Brdo]] in the [[Milici]] municipality and killed five Bosnian Serb civilians who were cutting wood in the forest. On June 23 four Bosnian Serb civilians were killed in the [[Skelani]] municipality, again, allegedly by Bosnian soldiers from Srebrenica. Three days later, the village of [[Visnjica]] in the Milici municipality was attacked and one Serb killed and two injured and the village was burned down by Bosnian forces from Srebrenica.

In a 1998 [[UN]] Report to the Secretary-General termed the [[Srebrenica Report]], the UN conceded that Naser Orc’s forces “used techniques of ethnic cleansing” in burning Serbian villages and terrorizing Serbian civilians to flee. It was also conceded that they “apparently tortured and mutilated” Bosnian Serb civilians and soldiers. The Report also acknowledged that “Serb sources claim that over 1,300 people were killed” in the Srebrenica area by Naser Oric’s forces based in Srebrenica.

The UN further acknowledged that the Bosnian army ([[ARBiH]]) had the 28th Division in Srebrenica, made up of 3,000 to 4,000 soldiers. The ICTY indictment of Naser Oric for war crimes, however, lists the following military formations in the Srebrenica area: Company Srebrenica from Independent Battalion Srebrenica, Brigade Potocari, Brigade Suceska, Brigade “3 Maj” Kragljivoda, Independent Battalion Osmace, Company Pusmulici of the Srebrenica Independent Battalion, Independent Battalion Skenderovici, 114th East Bosnian Brigade, Independent Battalion Voljavica, Independent Battalion Biljeg, 1st Cerani Detachment, Company Kazani from Independent Battalion Srebrenica, Independent Battalion “5 Juli” Tokoljaci, 6th Detachment Kamenica, and Company Stari Grad. The Bosnian forces were organized in military formations and were equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, machine guns, grenades, grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, anti-tank missiles, and even tanks. Helicopters were used to transport arms and personnel from Tuzla.

In the Srebrenica pocket, it was Naser Oric’s forces who were attacking villages and occupying territory. These Bosnian offensives and attacks forced the Bosnian Serbs to launch a counterattack. UN General [[Morillon]] explained in his ICTY testimony why the Bosnian Serb forces were counterattacking in Srebrenica: “Oric was responsible for several massacres in which dozens of women and children had been killed, and it seemed to me there was more hatred in that one small corner of Bosnia than anywhere else… Mladic wanted to avenge his dead.”

Oric’s war crimes and atrocities provoked the Bosnian Serb response. [[New York Times]] journalist [[Roger Cohen]] emphasized the war crimes committed by Oric’s forces as a cause for the Bosnian Serb retaliation:

Naser Oric, a former bodyguard to Milosevic, who placed himself at the head of an increasingly effective Bosnian guerrilla force that, in the fall and winter of 1992, wreaked havoc on surrounding Serb villages. Oric liked to show visitors videos of piles of Serb bodies. He would boast about the number killed in a succession of lightning raids in the Bratunac area in which Serb communities were massacred and buildings torched. …Mladic liked to usher United Nations officials into desecrated Serb cemeteries in Bosnia in order to explain why he could never trust “the Turk”.

In [[The Toronto Star]] article “Fearsome Muslim Warlord Eludes Bosnian Serb Forces”, July 16, 1995, [[Bill Schiller]] described his visit to Oric’s headquarters in Srebrenica in 1994:

I met him in January, 1994…Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as ever crossed a battlefield, escaped Srebrenica before it fell…On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Naser Oric’s Greatest Hits….There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing….Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork. “We ambushed them,” he said, when a number of dead bodies appeared on the screen. ..The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: “We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted. …When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”…Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises…Lately, however, Oric increased his hit-and-run attacks at night. And in Mladic’s view, it was far too successful for a community that was supposed to be suppressed….The Serbs regard Oric…as a war criminal.

In the February 16, 1994 [[Washington Post]] article “Weapons, Cash and Chaos Lend Clout to Srebrenica’s Tough Guy”, [[John Promfret]] described Oric’s atrocities and war crimes: “Nasir Oric’s war trophies don’t line the wall… They’re on a videocassette tape: burned Serb houses and headless Serb men, their bodies crumpled in a pathetic heap…. “We had to use cold weapons that night,” Oric explains as scenes of dead men sliced by knives roll over his 21-inch Sony.”

Pomfret acknowledged that the Bosnian troops in Srebrenica sneaked past the U.N. Canadian observation posts to take “pot shots” at Serbian troops.

==Naser Oric as a Bosniak war hero==

Many [[Bosniak]] sources as well as some [[western world|western]] sources, claim that Naser Oric is a [[war hero]] who defended the enclave of Srebrenica from Bosnian Serb forces and that the attacks on Serb villages around [[Srebrenica]], which most accept took place, were in fact made with the aim of obtaining food and other resources for the closed off enclave. It is also alleged that there is no connection between Nasir Oric's actions in eastern Bosnia and the subsequent Bosnian Serb counteroffensive, culminating in the [[Srebrenica massacre]] in 1995.

== War Crimes indictment ==

After the [[Dayton Peace Accords]], he opened a [[physical fitness|fitness]] [[club]] in [[Tuzla]].

On [[March 28]] [[2003]] he was indicted by the ICTY on two counts of individual responsibility and four counts of command responsibility for violations of the laws or customs of war, and was arrested without further incident at his club by [[SFOR]] on [[April 10]] [[2003]]. He appeared before the court on [[April 15]], [[2003]], and pleaded "not guilty" to all the counts of the [[Indictment]].

He is accused of ordering the cruel treatment of eleven and killing of seven Serb men after being detained in the Srebrenica police station in 1992-1993. His troops are accused of pillaging at least hundered and fifty Serb-inhabited villages and hamlets in fifteen raids, causing the massacres of its population and death of at least 1,300 civilians.

Oric was charged with Cruel Treatment for the treatment of Bosnian Serb detainees between September 24 and October, 1992 at the Srebrenica Police Station by the Bosnian Military Police. [[Nedeljko Radic]] was beaten with wooden poles and iron bars, punched and kicked. His teeth were forcibly extracted using pliers. Muslim soldiers then urinated in his mouth and he was forced to swallow urine. His teeth were broken and his ribs were fractured. [[Slavoljub Zikic]] was punched with fists and beaten with boots. He was beaten with rifle butts. He was beaten unconsciousness. His teeth in his upper jaw were broken and his ribs fractured. One of his shoulders was broken. His vision and hearing were impaired. [[Zoran Brankovic]], [[Nevenko Bubanj]], and [[Veselin Sarac]] were punched, kicked, and beaten with wooden poles and iron bars.

Between December 15, 1992 and March 20, 1993, [[Ilija Ivanovic]] was beaten with fists, wooden poles, metal bars, baseball bats, and kicked with boots. He was stabbed with knives. His ribs were fractured, his teeth, nose, and cheekbone were broken. His head was smashed against metal bars and concrete walls, until losing consciousness. Bosnian Serb civilians [[Rado Pejic]], [[Stanko Mitrovic]], [[Miloje Obradovic]], [[Mile Trifunovic]] were beaten with wooden poles, baseball bats and metal bars, kicked and punched, losing consciousness. Pejic lost so much weight as a result of the beatings and inhumane treatment that he was unable to walk and was exchanged on a stretcher.

Oric was charged as follows: Count 1: Murder, a violation of [[the Laws and Customs of War]] under the [[ICTY]] and [[Geneva Conventions]]. Count 2: [[Cruel Treatment]] under the tribunal and [[Geneva Conventions]]. Counts 3-6 were [[wanton]] destruction of cities, towns or villages, not justified by military necessity, [[plunder]] of public or private property. From May 1992 to February 1993, his forces burnt, destroyed, plundered a minimum of 50 predominantly Serbian villages and hamlets. “As a result, thousands of Serb individuals fled the area.” Cattle, furniture, and television sets were plundered.

The trial began on October 6, 2004 and the prosecution completed its case on June 1, 2005. A week later the tribunal dropped 2 of the counts against him, withdrew all allegation of [[plunder|plundering]] [[public property|public]] and [[private property]]. The tribunal also dropped two villages from the list of alleged raids along with the names of 2 persons allegedly killed by Oric's men. The defence case commenced on July, 4 2005 and ended on April 10, 2006. A decision is expected in the case by the end of June 2006. He has been incarcarated at the ICTY since April 11, 2003.

===Bosniak allegations that the trial is biased===

Some Bosniaks allege that the tribunal has been biased against Oric. A number of witnesses testefied that Oric was aware of his impending indictment and told the commanders of [[SFOR]] in the [[Tuzla]] are that he would surrender peacefully, but SFOR chose to arrest him forcefully in spite of this. On July, 25 2003 the tribunal denied his appeal for a provisional release, even though it was clear he was no flight risk. Many of the 52 witnesses that the prosecution called were members of the [[Bosnian Serb Army]] who participated in the siege and massacre and as such are untrustworthy. The prosecution has also been accused of providing forged documents which three expert witnesess failed to authenticate, and has also been warned but not sancioned for witholding exculpatory evidence. The judges at one point attempted to reduce the time that defence witnesses were allowed to testify, until an appeals chamber overturned this decision.
There is also outrage at the 18 year sentence that the prosecution has asked for. Oric is charged with failing to prevent and punish his subordinates for allegedlly killing 12 people.

These allegations have not, however, been supported by the Bosnian government or any official Bosnian state institutions.

==See also==
* [[Srebrenica massacre]]

==External links==
* [http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/ori-ii030328e.htm Indictment against Naser Orić]
*[http://www.trial-ch.org/trialwatch/profiles/en/facts/p343.html Trial Watch profile of Naser Oric]
*[http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=260924&apc_state=henftri260916 Oric Trial Drama]
* [http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosta/polluters/1/0071.html Balkan Repository Project text on Naser Oric]

[[Category:1967 births|Oric, Naser]]
[[Category:Living people|Oric, Naser]]
[[Category:Soldiers from Bosnia and Herzegovina|Oric, Naser]]

[[de:Naser Orić]]
[[fr:Naser Orić]]
[[nl:Naser Orić]]
[[no:Naser Orić]]
[[sr:Насер Орић]]

Naser Orić

2006-06-11T08:29:28Z

C-c-c-c: rv

[[Image:Oric.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Naser Orić, on trial at the [[ICTY]]]]

'''Naser Orić''' (born [[March 3]], [[1967]]) is a former [[Bosniak]] soldier who is currently a [[war crimes]] indictee at the [[ICTY]].

==Pre-war==

He was born in [[Potočari]], [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]], [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia|Yugoslavia]]. Following conscription in the [[Yugoslav People's Army]] (JNA) in [[1985]]/[[1986]], he served in a special unit for atomic and chemical defence. He left the JNA with the rank of [[Corporal]].

===Police career===

In [[1988]], he completed a six month [[training]] course in [[Zemun]] and served in [[Savski Venac]] in [[Belgrade]] as a trainee [[policeman]]. As a member of the police unit for special actions, he had courses for two more years. In [[1990]], Naser Oric was deployed to [[Kosovo]] as a member of a Special Police unit of the [[Ministry of the Interior]] of the [[Republic of Serbia]]. Thereafter, he returned to Belgrade, where he was rumored to be a [[bodyguard]] to [[Slobodan Milosevic]].

On [[5 August]] [[1991]], he was transferred to a [[police station]] in [[Ilidza]], on the outskirts of [[Sarajevo]], Bosnia. In late 1991, Naser Oric was moved to the police station in [[Srebrenica]] and on [[8 April]] [[1992]] was made the [[Police Chief]] of the Potocari police sub-station.

==War==

During the [[Bosnian War]], Oric became [[Commander]] of the [[Bosnian]] [[government]] forces in the Srebrenica [[enclave]].

===Territorial Defence===

With the disintegration of the [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], a cadre staff consisting of former [[JNA]] officers began to prepare for the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On [[8 April]] 1992, the [[Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina]] transformed the existing [[Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina]] TO (Territorial Defence) into the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

On [[17 April]] 1992, the Potocari TO was established and Naser Oric became its Commander. On [[20 May]] 1992, members of the Crisis Staff of the TO Srebrenica too appointed him as the Commander. On [[27 June]] 1992, Sefer Halilovic, Chief of the Supreme Command Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina (ABiH) officially confirmed him as the Commander of the Srebrenica TO [[Headquarters]] (HQ). Oric also became a member of the War Presidency in Srebrenica upon its creation on [[1 July]] 1992.

===Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina===
[[Image:Oric.JPG|thumb|Commander Oric in 1993 (TVP)]]

On [[3 September]] 1992, the Srebrenica TO HQ was re-named the HQ Srebrenica [[Armed Forces]]; Naser Oric remained the Commander. Oric's command was further extended when he was appointed the Commander of the Joint Armed Forces of the Sub-Region Srebrenica in early November 1992. Now his command encompassed the geographical regions of several municipalities: Srebrenica, [[Bratunac]], Vlasenica and [[Zvornik]] in Eastern Bosnia. On [[15 April]] [[1993]], Oric received a Certificate of Merit.

On [[1 January]] [[1994]], all units under the command of Naser Oric were named the 8th Operative Group Srebrenica HQ of the ABiH. On [[12 July]] 1994, Naser Oric was promoted to the rank of [[Brigadier]]. Sometime before [[1 March]] 1994, Oric was awarded the "Golden Lily", the highest award given by the [[Chief of Staff]] of the Supreme Command of the ABiH.

In early [[1995]], the 8th Operative Group Srebrenica HQ was re-named the ABiH 2nd Corps 28th Mountain Division. In the July 1995, Srebrenica "[[UN]] safe area" enclave was overrun by the [[Bosnian Serb Army]]. However, Orić, along with rest of the command staff of 8th OG, had been evacuated by [[helicopter]] prior to the fall of the enclave.

==UN trial==

After the [[Dayton Peace Accords]], he opened a [[physical fitness|fitness]] [[club]] in [[Tuzla]].

On [[March 28]] [[2003]] he was indicted by the ICTY on two counts of individual responsibility and four counts of command responsibility for violations of the laws or customs of war, and was arrested without further incident at his club by [[SFOR]] on [[April 10]] [[2003]]. He has been incarcarated at the ICTY since [[April 11]], 2003; he appeared before the court on [[April 15]], [[2003]], and pleaded "not guilty" to all the counts of the [[Indictment]].

Naser Oric is accused of failing to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the torture and cruel treatment of eleven and killing of seven [[Serb]] men being detained in the Srebrenica police station in 1992/1993, and to punish the perpetrators thereof. He is also accused of having ordered (and led) numerous [[guerilla]] [[raid]]s into as many as 50 Serb-populated villages in 1992-1993, particularly in the [[municipalities]] of Bratunac and Srebrenica. In the course of such combat activities, Bosnian Serb buildings, dwellings, and other property in predominantly Serb villages, were burnt and destroyed; as a result, thousands of Serb individuals fled the area.

:''Naser ORIC, is individually responsible, pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal, for the crimes of wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages not justified by military necessity and plunder of property as alleged in this indictment. Individual criminal responsibility includes planning, instigating, ordering, committing or otherwise aiding and abetting in the planning, preparation or execution of any acts or omissions set forth in this indictment. Naser ORIC's continued failure to take reasonable measures to prevent wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages and to punish the perpetrators who committed such crimes, as well as his active involvement in the attacks during which such wanton destruction was caused, instigated the commission of the crimes and aided and abetted the perpetrators of these crimes.''

The trial began on [[October 6]], [[2004]] and the prosecution completed its case on [[June 1]], [[2005]]. A week later the tribunal dropped two of the counts against him, withdrew all allegation of [[plunder|plundering]] [[public property|public]] and [[private property]]; the tribunal also dropped two villages from the list of alleged raids. The defence case commenced on [[July 4]], 2005 (a week before the 10th anniversary of the [[Srebrenica massacre]]) and ended on [[April 10]], [[2006]] (a day before the three year anniverary of his arrest). A decision is expected in the case by the end of June 2006.

===Bosniak allegations===

There have been allegations that the tribunal has been biased against Oric. A number of witnesses testefied that Oric was aware of his impending indictment and told the commanders of [[SFOR]] in Tuzla that he would surrender peacefully, but SFOR chose to arrest him forcefully in spite of this. On [[July 25]], 2003 the tribunal denied his appeal for a provisional release, even though it was clear he was no flight risk.

Many of the 52 witnesses that the prosecution called were members of the [[Bosnian Serb Army]] who participated in the siege and massacre of Srebrenica and as such are untrustworthy. The prosecution has also been accused of providing forged documents which three expert witnesses failed to authenticate, and has also been warned but not sancioned for witholding [[exculpatory evidence]]. The judges at one point attempted to reduce the time that defence witnesses were allowed to testify, until an appeals chamber overturned this decision.

There is also outrage at the 18 year sentence that the prosecution has asked for. Oric is charged with failing to prevent and punish his subordinates for all

Ferizaj

2006-06-11T08:11:11Z

C-c-c-c: oops

{{Kosovo cities|
native_name = Ferizaj Uroševac|
image_flag = |
image_flag_size = 130px|
Flag_legend = [[Flag of Ferizai|City flag]]|
image_map = Ferizaj 2006.PNG|
mayor = Faik Grainca|
altitude = |
area = 720|
population = 143,842 [http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&srt=npan&col=aohdq&geo=-244]|
date-population = (2005)|
density = 201.3|
date-density = (2005)|
coordinates =
[http://kvaleberg.com/extensions/mapsources/index.php?params=52_31_N_13_24_E_type:city(3,390,444)]|
postal code = 70000|
code = +381 290|
subdivisions = --|
zone = [[UTC|UTC+1]]|
site = [http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality of Ferizaj]|
notes = |
}}
[[Image:St Uros' Cathedral.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Saint Uroš' Cathedral, June 1999]]
'''Uroševac''' (in [[Albanian language|Albanian]] '''Ferizaj''' or '''Uroševac'''/'''Урошевац''' in ([[Serbian language|Serbian]]) is a city and the centrum of the [[Uroševac District]], located in the province of [[Kosovo]], [[Serbia]], at 42.38° North, 21.17° East.

The town grew rapidly [[1873]] as a consequence of the railroad built. There had previously existed a hostel owned by Feriz Shashivari, thus [[Serbs]] called the town ''Ferizovići'' while [[Albanians]] called it ''Ferizaj''.

Its [[Serbian language|Serbian]] name commemorates the medieval St Uroš, who is also commemorated by a cathedral in the town (badly damaged in June 1999 by Albanians extremists).
In [[2003]] the city had a total population of 39,800. In [[1998]], prior to the [[Kosovo war]], the population was recorded as 57,421, of whom 82.1 per cent were Kosovo Albanian, 9.4 per cent Serb, and the remainder from various other national communities. The population is now believed to be almost entirely Kosovo Albanian after the expulsion of minorities.

[[Camp Bondsteel]], the main base of the United States Army under [[KFOR]] command in the [[U.N.]] protectorate of [[Kosovo]] is also located near the town.

==Demographics==
{|border="2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" rules="all" width="63%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Ethnic Composition, Including IDPs'''
|-
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!Year/Population
!Albanian
! %
!Serb
! %
!Ashkali/Roma
! %
!Gorani/Bosniaks
! %
!Total
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|1991 census * ||81,737|| 85.9 ||8,191|| 8.6|| 2,081|| 2.2 || || ||95,156
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|October 1999||92,267|| 95.1|| 26 ||0.0|| 4,700|| 4.8|| || ||96,967
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Current est. ||140,000|| 97.4 ||147|| 0.1|| 3,594|| 2.3|| 248|| 0.2 || 143,842
|-
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|It is noted that the 1991 census was highly politicised and isthus unreliable.Ref: [[OSCE]] [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html ] '''
|}

==See also==
* [[Uroševac District]]
* [[Kosovo Serb enclaves]]

==External links==
* [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html OSCE Profile of Ferizaj / Urosevac]
* [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_and_its_population.pdf SOK Kosovo and its population]
 
{{KosMunic}}

[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Kosovo]]

[[bs:Ferizovići]]
[[sq:Ferizaji (komuna)]]

{{Euro-geo-stub}}

Ferizaj

2006-06-11T08:10:24Z

C-c-c-c: fix ups

{{Kosovo cities|
native_name = Ferizaj Uroševac|
image_flag = |
image_flag_size = 130px|
Flag_legend = [[Flag of Ferizai|City flag]]|
image_map = Ferizaj 2006.PNG|
mayor = Faik Grainca|
altitude = |
area = 720|
population = 143,842 [http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&srt=npan&col=aohdq&geo=-244]|
date-population = (2005)|
density = 201.3|
date-density = (2005)|
coordinates =
[http://kvaleberg.com/extensions/mapsources/index.php?params=52_31_N_13_24_E_type:city(3,390,444)]|
postal code = 70000|
code = +381 290|
subdivisions = --|
zone = [[UTC|UTC+1]]|
site = [http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality of Ferizaj]|
notes = |
}}
[[Image:St Uros' Cathedral.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Saint Uroš' Cathedral, June 1999]]
'''Uroševac''' ('''Ferizaj''' in Albanian language|Albanian]] or '''Uroševac'''/'''Урошевац''' ([[Serbian language|Serbian]]) is a city and the centrum of the [[Uroševac District]], located in the province of [[Kosovo]], [[Serbia]], at 42.38° North, 21.17° East.

The town grew rapidly [[1873]] as a consequence of the railroad built. There had previously existed a hostel owned by Feriz Shashivari, thus [[Serbs]] called the town ''Ferizovići'' while [[Albanians]] called it ''Ferizaj''.

Its [[Serbian language|Serbian]] name commemorates the medieval St Uroš, who is also commemorated by a cathedral in the town (badly damaged in June 1999 by Albanians extremists).
In [[2003]] the city had a total population of 39,800. In [[1998]], prior to the [[Kosovo war]], the population was recorded as 57,421, of whom 82.1 per cent were Kosovo Albanian, 9.4 per cent Serb, and the remainder from various other national communities. The population is now believed to be almost entirely Kosovo Albanian after the expulsion of minorities.

[[Camp Bondsteel]], the main base of the United States Army under [[KFOR]] command in the [[U.N.]] protectorate of [[Kosovo]] is also located near the town.

==Demographics==
{|border="2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" rules="all" width="63%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Ethnic Composition, Including IDPs'''
|-
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!Year/Population
!Albanian
! %
!Serb
! %
!Ashkali/Roma
! %
!Gorani/Bosniaks
! %
!Total
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|1991 census * ||81,737|| 85.9 ||8,191|| 8.6|| 2,081|| 2.2 || || ||95,156
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|October 1999||92,267|| 95.1|| 26 ||0.0|| 4,700|| 4.8|| || ||96,967
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Current est. ||140,000|| 97.4 ||147|| 0.1|| 3,594|| 2.3|| 248|| 0.2 || 143,842
|-
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|It is noted that the 1991 census was highly politicised and isthus unreliable.Ref: [[OSCE]] [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html ] '''
|}

==See also==
* [[Uroševac District]]
* [[Kosovo Serb enclaves]]

==External links==
* [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html OSCE Profile of Ferizaj / Urosevac]
* [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_and_its_population.pdf SOK Kosovo and its population]
 
{{KosMunic}}

[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Kosovo]]

[[bs:Ferizovići]]
[[sq:Ferizaji (komuna)]]

{{Euro-geo-stub}}

Talk:Ferizaj

2006-06-11T08:07:44Z

C-c-c-c: moved Talk:Ferizai to Talk:Uroševac: The English name

==Unitet Naticion Law in Kosovo==
The user of the city names in English Language (newer version from the [[UN]] liable pilari in [[Kosovo]] for such think )
#http://www.osce.org/kosovo/13982.html
The original page of the Law (1. in albanian L., 2.Serbian L.)
-----
#http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/03albanian/A2000regs/RA2000_43.htm
#http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/04serbian/SC2000regs/RSC2000_43.pdf

The '''[[UN]] Law in Kosovo''' says that the '''only oficele''' name are the names presentit in >A< every thinks als is '''out of Law'''. This is for albanian language.
<pre>
RREGULLORe NR. 2000/43
UNMIK/REG/2000/43
27 korrik 2000
Mbi numrin, emrat dhe kufinjtë e komunave
-------------------------------------------
Përfaqësuesi Special i Sekretarit të Përgjithshëm,
Në pajtim me autorizimin e tij të dhënë me rezolutën 1244 (1999) të datës 10 qershor 1999 të
Këshillit të Sigurimit të Kombeve të Bashkuara,
Duke marrë parasysh Rregulloren nr. 1999/1 të datës 25 korrik 1999, të ndryshuar, të
Misionit të Administratës së Përkohshme të Kombeve të Bashkuara në Kosovë (UNMIK)
mbi autorizimin e Administratës së
Përkohshme në Kosovë dhe Rregulloren Nr. 1999/24 të datës 12 dhjetor 1999 të UNMIK-ut
mbi ligjin në fuqi në Kosovë,
Me qëllim të qartësimit të numrit, emrave, shtrirja dhe kufinjve të komunave para mbajtjes
së zgjedhjeve komunale në Kosovë,
Shpall sa vijon:
Neni 1
Numri dhe emrat e komunave
Kosova ka tridhjetë komuna ashtu siç figurojnë në Tabelën ‘A’ të kësaj rregulloreje.
Komunikimi zyrtar nuk përmban asnjë emër për ndonjë komunë i cili nuk figuron në Tabelën ‘A’
të kësaj rregulloreje, përveç që në ato komuna ku komunitetet etnike a gjuhësore joshqiptare
dhe joserbe përbëjnë një pjesë substanciale, emrat e komunave jepen edhe në gjuhët e
atyre komuniteteve.
Neni 2
Shtrirja dhe kufinjtë e komunave
Shtrirja e çdo komune dhe kufinjtë e tyre skicohen nga zonat e tyre përbërëse kadastrale.
Zonat kadastrale të cilat përbëjnë çdo komunë figurojnë në Tabelën ‘B’ të kësaj rregulloreje.
Neni 3
Zbatimi
Përfaqësuesi Special i Sekretarit të Përgjithshëm mund të lëshojë direktiva administrative
në lidhje me zbatimin e kësaj rregulloreje.
Neni 4
Ligji i zbatueshëm
Kjo rregullore mbulon çdo dispozitë në ligjin e zbatueshëm e cila nuk është në përputhje me të.
Neni 5
Hyrja në fuqi
Kjo rregullore hyn në fuqi më 27 korrik 2000.
Bernard Kouchner
Përfaqësuesi Special i Sekretarit të Përgjithshëm
</pre>
The '''[[UN]] Law in Kosovo''' says that the '''only oficele''' name are the names presentit in >A< every thinks als is '''out of Law'''. This is for serbian language.
<pre>
UREDBA BR. 2000/43
UNMIK/URED/2000/43
27. jul 2000. godine
O BROJU, IMENIMA I GRANICAMA OP[TINA
Specijalni predstavnik Generalnog sekretara,
Shodno ovla{}ewu koje mu je dato Rezolucijom Saveta bezbednosti Ujediwenih
nacija 1244 (1999) od 10. juna 1999. godine,
Na osnovu Uredbe br. 1999/1 od 25. jula 1999. godine Privremene
administrativne misije Ujediwenih nacija na Kosovu (UNMIK), sa izmenama i
dopunama, o ovla{}ewima Privremene uprave na Kosovu i na osnovu Uredbe
UNMIK-a br. 2000/24 od 12. decembra 2000. godine o zakonu koji je u primeni na
Kosovu, (hier is oficele user)
U ciqu razja{wavawa broja, imena, oblasti i granica op{tina pre odr`avawa
op{tinskih izbora na Kosovu,
Ovim objavquje slede}e:
Clan 1
BROJ I IMENA OPSTINA
1.1 Kosovo ima trideset opstina kao sto je dato u Tabeli '''A''' u dodatku ovoj
Uredbi.
1.2 Zvani~na komunikacija ne mo`e da sadrzi bilo koje ime za opstinu koje
nije naziv odredjen u Tabeli A ove Uredbe, osim u onim opstinama gde etni~ke i
jezi~ke zajednice, koje nisu srpske i albanske ~ine znatan deo stanovni{tva, gde
se imena op{tina daju i na jezicima tih zajednica.
Clan 2
PODRU^JA I GRANICE OP[TINA
Podru~je svake op{tine i wene granice su ocrtane wenim sastavnim
katastarskim zonama. Katastarske zone koje ~ine svaku op{tinu su odre|ene u
Tabeli B prilo`enoj u dodatku ovoj Uredbi.
Clan 3
PRIMENA
Specijalni predstavnik Generalnog sekretara mo`e da donese administrativno
uputstvo u vezi sa primenom ove Uredbe.
Clan 4
ZAKON KOJI JE U PRIMENI
Ova Uredba zamewuje svaku odredbu zakona koji je u primeni a koja nije saglasna
sa wom.
Clan 5
STUPAWE NA SNAGU
Ova Uredba stupa na snagu 27. jula 2000. godine.
Bernar Ku{ner
Specijalni predstavnik Generalnog sekretara
</pre>
tabel of contens >A<
<pre>
TABELA ‘A’ (alb) RASPORED A (ser.)
Emrat e komunave (alb.)IMENA OPSTINA (serb)
Albanski Srpski
01 Deçan \Decani
02 Gjakovë \Djakovica
03 Gllogovc \Glogovac
04 Gjilan \Gnilane
05 Dragash \Dragas
06 Istog \Istok
07 Kaçanik \Kacanik
08 Klinë\ Klina
09 Fushë Kosovë\ Kosovo Polje
10 Kamenicë \Kamenica
11 Mitrovicë \Kosovska Mitrovica
12 Leposaviq \Leposavic
13 Lipjan \Lipqan
14 Novobërdë \Novo Brdo
15 Obiliq \Obilic
16 Rahovec\ Orahovac
17 Pejë\ Pec
18 Podujevë\ Podujevo
19 Prishtinë \Pristina
20 Prizren \Prizren
21 Skenderaj\ Srbica
22 Shtime\ Stimqe
23 Shtërpcë\ Strpce
24 Suharekë\ Suva Reka
25 Ferizaj \Urosevac
26 Viti \Vitina
27 Vushtrri\ Vucitrn
28 Zubin Potok \Zubin Potok
29 Zveçan\ Zvecan
30 Malishevë\ Malisevo
</pre>

If sambody have a argument Im waitting. In another cases you are going to interpret the dokumets (you are '''out of [[UN]] Law''') and you dont have argumet, you dont work for Wikipedia but you are destroing the comunity of Wikipedia. I know that my english is not so gut, but a desinformation is not gut for Wikipedia and for the peopel in Kosovo. Dont forget You can have a problem with "Haage" or Carla del Ponte. This tabel is speeken better then I --[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 20:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== No argumet ==

'''No argumet!!! please dont inteprete the documents '''

Sombody have putit this Kosovo place in Serbia stub or category or template here with out argumet. We dont have a argumet that Kosovo is part of S/M. We have tha Constitution of this countrie but we have the rez. 1244 wich is more importen for the Wikipedia and is saying that Kosovo it is a part of Yougoslavia and is prototoriat of UN. Till we dont have a clearly argument from UN, aricel about Kosovo must be out of this stub or category or template. Pleas dont make the discution with intepretation or the Law wich are not accordin to 1244. Everybodoy can do that but that is nothing for Wikipedia.--[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 04:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Ferizai

2006-06-11T08:07:44Z

C-c-c-c: moved Ferizai to Uroševac: The English name

#REDIRECT [[Uroševac]]

Ferizaj

2006-06-11T08:07:44Z

C-c-c-c: moved Ferizai to Uroševac: The English name

{{Kosovo cities|
native_name = Ferizaj Uroševac|
image_flag = |
image_flag_size = 130px|
Flag_legend = [[Flag of Ferizai|City flag]]|
image_map = Ferizaj 2006.PNG|
mayor = Faik Grainca|
altitude = |
area = 720|
population = 143,842 [http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&srt=npan&col=aohdq&geo=-244]|
date-population = (2005)|
density = 201.3|
date-density = (2005)|
coordinates =
[http://kvaleberg.com/extensions/mapsources/index.php?params=52_31_N_13_24_E_type:city(3,390,444)]|
postal code = 70000|
code = +381 290|
subdivisions = --|
zone = [[UTC|UTC+1]]|
site = [http://www.ferizaj-komuna.org/ Municipality of Ferizaj]|
notes = |
}}
[[Image:St Uros' Cathedral.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Saint Uroš' Cathedral, June 1999]]
'''Ferizaj''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]) or '''Uroševac'''/'''Урошевац''' ([[Serbian language|Serbian]]) is a city and the centrum of the [[Ferizaji District]], located in the province of [[Kosovo]], at 42.38° North, 21.17° East.

The town grew rapidly [[1873]] as a consequence of the railroad built. There had previously existed a hostel owned by Feriz Shashivari, thus [[Serbs]] called the town ''Ferizovići'' while [[Albanians]] called it ''Ferizaj''.

Its [[Serbian language|Serbian]] name commemorates the medieval St Uroš, who is also commemorated by a cathedral in the town (badly damaged in June 1999).
In [[2003]] the city had a total population of 39,800. In [[1998]], prior to the [[Kosovo war]], the population was recorded as 57,421, of whom 82.1 per cent were Kosovo Albanian, 9.4 per cent Serb, and the remainder from various other national communities. The population is now believed to be almost entirely Kosovo Albanian.

[[Camp Bondsteel]], the main base of the United States Army under [[KFOR]] command in the [[U.N.]] protectorate of [[Kosovo]] is also located near the town.

==Demographics==
{|border="2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" rules="all" width="63%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Ethnic Composition, Including IDPs'''
|-
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!Year/Population
!Albanian
! %
!Serb
! %
!Ashkali/Roma
! %
!Gorani/Bosniaks
! %
!Total
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|1991 census * ||81,737|| 85.9 ||8,191|| 8.6|| 2,081|| 2.2 || || ||95,156
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|October 1999||92,267|| 95.1|| 26 ||0.0|| 4,700|| 4.8|| || ||96,967
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Current est. ||140,000|| 97.4 ||147|| 0.1|| 3,594|| 2.3|| 248|| 0.2 || 143,842
|-
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|It is noted that the 1991 census was highly politicised and isthus unreliable.Ref: [[OSCE]] [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html ] '''
|}

==See also==
* [[Ferizaji District]]
* [[Kosovo Serb enclaves]]

==External links==
* [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1205_en.pdf.html OSCE Profile of Ferizaj / Urosevac]
* [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_and_its_population.pdf SOK Kosovo and its population]
 
{{KosMunic}}

[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Kosovo]]

[[bs:Ferizovići]]
[[sq:Ferizaji (komuna)]]

{{Euro-geo-stub}}

Peja

2006-06-11T07:51:23Z

C-c-c-c: S&M dissolved

{{Kosovo cities|
native_name = Peja Peć|
image_flag = |
image_flag_size = 130px|
Flag_legend = [[Flag of Peć|City flag]]|
image_map = Pejë 2006.PNG|
mayor = Ali Lajqi |
area =|
altitude =|
population = 95,190 [http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&srt=npan&col=aohdq&geo=-244]|
date-population = (2006)|
density = ?|
date-density = (2006)|
coordinates = |
postal code =|
subdivisions = ?|
zone = [[UTC|UTC+1]]|
site = [http://www.peja-komuna.org/ KK Pejë]|
notes = |
}}

'''Peć''' (''[[Albanian language|Albanian]]'': '''Pejë''' / '''Peja'''; ''[[Serbian language|Serbian Cyrillic]]'' '''Пећ''') is a city located in the western part of [[Metohija]], a [[United Nations]]-administered territory of Kosovo and Metohija which is formally part of [[Serbia]]. It had population of 81,800 as of 2003. Other names of the city include [[Turkish language|Turkish]] ''Ipek'' or ''İpek'', [[Latin language|Latin]] ''Pescium'' or ''Siparantum'', and formerly, ''Pentza''.

The city was probably founded by native [[Illyrians]]. It is located in a strategic position on the Bistrica river, a tributary of the [[Drin River|White Drin]] to the east of the Cursed Mountains, known in Albanian as ''Bjeshkët e Nemuna''. The city was known as ''Pescium'' during the [[Roman Empire|Roman]] era; other former names include ''Pentza'' and, as reported by [[Ptolemy]] in his ''Geography'', ''Siparantum''.

The town became a major religious centre of [[History of Medieval Serbia|medieval Serbia]] under the Serbian Tsar [[Stefan Dušan]], who made it the seat of the [[Serbian Orthodox Church]] in 1346. It retained this status until 1766, when the [[Patriarchate of Peć]] was abolished. The town and its surrounding area are still revered by adherents of Serbian Orthodoxy; the town is the site of the patriarchal monastery, which stands above the town and consists of four fresco-decorated churches, a library, and a treasury. The [[14th century]] [[Visoki Dečani monastery]], a [[UNESCO]] [[World Heritage Site]], lies about 19 km south, in nearby [[Dečani]].

It was captured by the [[Ottoman Empire]] in the late [[14th century]], and underwent major changes under Ottoman rule, including a change of name to ''Ipek''. The town was settled by a large number of [[Turkish people|Turks]], many of whose descendants still live in the area, and took on a distinctly oriental character with narrow streets and old-style Turkish houses. It also gained an [[Islam]]ic character with the construction of a number of [[mosque]]s, many of which still survive.One of these mosques is the Bajrakli Mosque built by the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century. The mosque is located in the center of the city.

The rule of the Ottomans came to an end in the [[First Balkan War]] of 1913 and [[Serbia]] took control of the town again after a 500 year absence. Relations between the Christian Slavic Serbs and the mostly Muslim Albanians, who were the majority population, were often tense during the 20th century. They came to a head in the [[Kosovo War]] of 1999, during which the city suffered heavy damage. It suffered further damage in violent inter-ethnic [[2004 unrest in Kosovo|unrest]] in 2004.

The economy was inevitably badly affected by the war, but historically it has centered on agricultural matters and craftworks produced by the city's traditional craftsmen – coppersmiths, goldsmiths, slipper makers, leather tanners, saddle makers and so on.
==Demographics==
{|border="2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" rules="all" width="98%" style="clear:all; margin:5px 0 0em 0em; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:85%; empty-cells:show"
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#778899; color:white"|'''Ethnic Composition, Including IDPs'''
|-
|- bgcolor="#FFEBCD"
!Year/Population
!Albanians
! %
!Serbs
! %
!Roma
! %
!Egjypta
! %
!Boshnjak
! %
!Others
! %
!Total
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Unreliable 1991-cens.||96,441|| 75.5 ||7,800|| 6 ||4,442|| 3.5 || || || || || 19,098||15 ||127,796
|- bgcolor="#fffaf0"
|January 1999 ||104,600|| ||950|| || 3,500-4,000|| || || || || ||4,000-4,200|| ||113,000
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|Current figure ||78,712||86.3||1,000|| 1.2 ||1,800|| 1.9 ||4,500 ||4.9 ||5000 ||5.4|| || ||91,112
|- bgcolor="#f5f5f5"
|-
|colspan="14" align=center style="background:#dcdcdc;"|Source:OSCE, IOM, Department for Inter-Community Affairs, CEO Sector for Territorial Communities, Mother Teresa Association, Istoria Srba; Konstatin Jireček It is noted that the 1991 census was highly politicised and is thus unreliable. Ref: [[OSCE]] [http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1197_en.pdf.html ] '''
|}

==See also==
* [[Peja District]]
== External links ==
* [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_and_its_population.pdf SOK Kosovo and its population]
* [http://www.peja-komuna.org/ - Official city website]
* [http://www.albanian.com/information/countries/kosova/peja/index.html - Albanian Information - Peja]
 
{{KosMunic}}
{{Euro-geo-stub}}
[[Category:Cities, towns and villages in Kosovo|Pec]]

[[de:Peć]]
[[et:Peć]]
[[nl:Peć]]
[[sv:Peja]]
[[sq:Peja (komuna)]]
[[sr:Пећ]]

User talk:CrnaGora

2006-06-11T07:48:15Z

C-c-c-c:

User talk:C-c-c-c

2006-06-11T03:13:21Z

C-c-c-c:

Albanians

2006-06-10T18:36:57Z

C-c-c-c: some fix ups

:''Thiss article is about the Albanians as an [[ethnic group]]. For information about the residents or nationals of [[Albania]], see [[demographics of Albania]].''
{{Ethnic group|
|group=Albanians (Shqiptarë)
|image=[[Image:4Shqiptaret.PNG|300px]]<div style="background-color:#fee8ab">[[Skanderbeg]], [[Pope Clement XI]], [[Mehmet Ali]] and [[King Zog]]
|poptime=''c.'' 8,000,000 |popplace=
[[Albania]]:    3,385,000 [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/al.html] 
[[Kosovo]]:    2,112,000 [http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/kosovo/SoE/popullat.htm] 
[[Serbia]]:    67,000 [http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/kosovo/SoE/popullat.htm] 
[[Montenegro]]:    31,000 [http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/kosovo/SoE/popullat.htm] 
[[Republic of Macedonia]]:    510,000 [http://www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/kniga_13.pdf (2002 census)] 
[[Greece]]:    680,000{{citation needed}} 
[[Italy]]:    250,000 
[[United States|USA]]:    114,000 [http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_QTP13&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U (2000 census)] 
[[Sweden]]:    35,000 
[[Denmark]]:    8,000 
[[France]]:    20,000 
[[Switzerland]]:    94,900[http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/themen/bevoelkerung/sprachen__religionen/blank/medienmitteilungen.Document.24786.html] 
[[Germany]]:    10,500[http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab10.htm] 
[[Slovenia]]:    6,000 
[[Croatia]]:    4,500 
[[Romania]]:    500 
[[Great Britain]]:    30,000 
[[Norway]]:    7.000 
[[Belgium]]:    5,000 
[[Australia]]:    12.000 
[[Bosnia and Herzegovina]]:    7,000 
[[Turkey]]:    65,000 [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=TRE] (see text) 

|langs=[[Albanian language|Albanian]]
|rels=Predominantly [[Islam|Muslim]] with significant [[Albanian Orthodox Church|Albanian Orthodox]] and [[Roman Catholic]] minorities
}}
The '''Albanians''' are an [[ethnic group]] generally associated with [[Albania]], [[Kosovo]], the [[Republic of Macedonia]] and the [[Albanian language]]. Most Albanians nowadays live in the [[Albania|Republic of Albania]] and in the UN administered territory of [[Kosovo]] (autonomous province of Serbia), also in central [[Serbia]], [[Montenegro]] and the [[Republic of Macedonia]]. There are Albanian minorities and large immigrant communities in a number of other countries.

==Population==
Due to the high rate of migration of various ethnic groups throughout the [[Balkans]] in the last two decades, exact figures are difficult to obtain. A tenuous breakdown of Albanians by location is as follows:
*3,385,000 in [[Albania]] according to CIA World Factbook
*2,112,000 in [[Kosovo]] (the OSCE estimates)
*67,000 in [[Serbia]] ([[2002]] census)
*31,000 in [[Montenegro]] (according to the 2003 census; an estimated 50,000 by [http://www.albanian.com/information/countries/montenegro/index.html Albanian accounts]).
*509,000 in the [[Republic of Macedonia]] (from the 2002 census).
*more than 233,000 [http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=68624 Albanians in Italy], the majority having arrived since 1991. See also [[Arbëreshë]].
*In [[Greece]], there were more waves of immigration from Albania, from the [[11th century]] to the [[1990s]]. As such, they are divided into different groups:
**[[Cham Albanians]]: an unknown number reside in the Greek region of [[Epirus (region)|Epirus]] (''Çamëria'' in Albanian) - there were thought to be around 19,000 before the end of [[World War II]]. The Muslim Cham Albanians left Greece for Albania and Turkey in 1945; the exact reasons for their departure vary depending on source. According to Greek sources, it was to avoid the impending military court sentences, a consequence of their collaboration with the Italian/German occupying forces. Albanian sources claim they were forcefully expelled by the [[Ethnikos Dimokratikos Ellinikos Syndesmos|EDES]] troops of the Greek resistance for having collaborated with the Italian/German occupying forces.
**The [[Arvanites]] are the descendants of ethnic Albanian immigrants from 11th century to the 15th century. They have been largely assimilated into the dominant Greek society and generally do not self-identify as Albanians.
**[[Albanians in Greece|Albanian nationals]] who arrived during the [[1990s]], mainly as illegal immigrants; there are as many as 700.000 [of which up to 200.000 are documented as ethnic Greeks] according to the only official state report on immigration data: [http://www.mmo.gr/pdf/general/IMEPO_Final_Report_English.pdf Statistical Data on Immigrants in Greece].
*In [[Turkey]]: demographers estimate up to 5 - 6 million of Albanian descent [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/11/98/crossing_continents/374751.stm]. However, many Albanians, who immigrated from their homelands to Turkey, have been assimilated and do not espouse ethnic Albanian affiliation. Turkey does not compile official census figures for Albanians.
*In [[Australia]]: by birthplace of individual, the total number of persons born in Albania is 1,451. By ancestry, the count of responses with Albanian ancestry is 10,459 according to 2001 Census of Population by Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) regarding Albanians living in Australia.
*Albanians living permanently in [[Scandinavia]]:
**in [[Sweden]]: 35,000 Albanians. [http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/9808/27/telegram/inrikes48.html]
**in [[Denmark]]: 8,000 Albanians. {{citation needed}}
**in [[Norway]]: 7,000 Albanians. {{citation needed}}
*In [[Egypt]]: 18,000 Albanians{{citation needed}}, mostly Tosk speakers. Many are descendants of the soldiers of [[Muhammad Ali of Egypt|Mehmet Ali]]. A large part of the former nobility of Egypt was Albanian in origin.
*In the [[United States]]: 114,000 Albanians, according to the latest [http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf 2000 US Census]. This figure includes Albanians from Albania only.

==Ethnic subgroups==
There are two major dialect groups, the Ghegs, to the north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosks, to the south. Kosovar Albanians are Ghegs. There is a large intermediate area between the two regions, which includes the capital, Tirana.

The Ghegs, who make up two-thirds of Albanians, are less intermarried with non-Albanians than the Tosks, who throughout history were more often subjected to foreign rule and other foreign influences. In the past, the Ghegs were organized in clans and the Tosks in a semifeudal society. Before World War II the Ghegs dominated Albanian politics, but after the war many Tosks came to power because the new Communist government drew most of its support from Tosks.

During Enver Hoxha’s regime in Albania, the cultural and economic differences between the Ghegs and the Tosks were suppressed. The 1997 civil disturbances in Albania largely followed these ethnic lines, with Ghegs supporting Berisha and souther Tosks opposing him.

==Culture==
===Contribution to humanity===
Albanians have played a prominent role in the development of the [[The Arts|arts]] and [[sciences]] as well as in [[religion]] and [[sport]]. Prominent individuals have included the defender of Europe during the mid-15th century [[Skenderbeg]], the writer [[Ismail Kadare]], the painter [[Ibrahim Kodra]], the composer [[Simon Gjoni]], the [[Nobel Prize]] winner [[Ferid Murad]], the Olympic athlete [[Klodiana Shala]], the [[Roman Catholic]] missionary [[Mother Teresa]] and [[Pope Clement XI]].Other well known individuals include the prime minister of the [[Ottoman Empire]] [[Ferhat Pasha]] and [[Mehemet Ali (Egypt)|Mehemet Ali]] the [[viceroy]] of [[Egypt]]. [[John Belushi]] and his brother [[Jim Belushi]] were of Albanian parents who immigrated in the USA after WWII. The American actress [[Eliza Dushku]] is also born of Albanian father and Danish mother.

===Language===
Most Albanians speak the [[Albanian language]], a member of the [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] [[language family]]. There are several variants of Albanian. The two main Albanian variants are Tosk and Gheg.
Some members of the Albanian diaspora do not speak the language (mostly in the United States, Canada and United Kingdom) but are still considered Albanian by ethnic origin or descent.
Non-Albanians who studied the [[Albanian language]] include prominent individuals such as [[Franz Bopp]], [[Norbert Jokl]] and [[Robert Elsie]].

===Religion===
Since Ottoman rule, the majority of Albanians have been [[Islam|Muslim]]. Most of these are [[Sunni]] Muslims though a minority (20% of total Muslims) are [[Bektashi]]. Significant numbers of Albanians are [[Albanian Orthodox Church|Albanian Orthodox]] or [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]], and some have no formal religious affiliation. This rich blend of religions has rarely caused religious strife and fanaticism; today people of different religions are freely intermarrying. For most of its history, Albania has had a noticeable Jewish community. Most of this community was saved by the Albanian people during the Nazi occupation [http://www.juedisches-archiv-chfrank.de/kehilot/albania/alban-resc.htm]. According to Yad Vashem's database, 67 Jews lost their lives in Albania. It is worth noting that Yad Vashem has collected data for only half of all Jewish deaths. Consequently, the death toll is closer to 134. The German test for Jewish identification was circumcision (ie. if men were circumcised, then they were Jews). However, Muslims were also circumcised and due to the large population of Muslims in Albania this test was not valid. Furthermore, Germans remained for only 14 months in Albania, mostly from 1944 to 1945. By that time, news on the Holocaust began spreading, causing more Jews to flee. The majority of Albanian Jews have left to settle in Israel, but a small number still remain.[http://www.amyisrael.co.il/europe/albania/].

===Symbolism===
[[Image:Flag_of_Albania.svg|right|150px|thumb|Albanian flag]]
The [[flag of Albania]] depicts a double-headed [[eagle]] on a red backgound, which was raised by the Albanian national hero [[Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg]] in his Albanian rebellion against the Ottoman Turks. The Albanians are called ''Shqiptarët'' (originally ''Shqyptarët'') in the [[Albanian language]], which freely translates as "The Sons of Eagles".

==History==
The Albanians are descendants of ancient Balkan people, but the exact identification is still under debate, see [[Origin of Albanians]]. Most historians and linguists support either an [[Illyrians|Illyrian]] or [[Daco]]-[[Thracian]] origin. They were first mentioned in the Balkans in 1043 AD. [[Islam]] replaced [[Christianity]] as the majority religion during the period of [[Ottoman Empire|Ottoman]] Turkish rule from the [[15th century]] until 1912, though [[Eastern Orthodoxy|Eastern Orthodox Christianity]] and [[Catholicism|Roman Catholicism]] are also practiced. Among the poorest of Europe's nationalities, in the latter half of the [[20th century]] Albanians experienced the highest rate of natural population growth of any of [[Europe]]'s major indigenous ethnic groups, increasing their numbers from 1.5 million around 1900 and fewer than 2.5 million in 1950.

==Ethnic Albanians==
Albanian is also a term often given to what would otherwise be called an ethnic Albanian. This is usually someone who is considered by himself or others to be Albanian or of Albanian descent. Several distinguishing characteristics might be:

* Cultural connection with [[Culture of Albania|Albanian culture]]
* Speaking the [[Albanian language]]
* Having ancestors who lived in Albania or an area out of which the current Albanian state was formed (i.e. the occupied lands that were part of the [[Ottoman Empire]])

There are ethnic Albanian communities in several [[Europe]]an countries, as well as in the [[United States]], [[Canada]], [[Australia]], [[Russia]] and [[Ukraine]].

==Albanian Population figures, as estimated by the Albanians==
Although the worldwide population of Albanians is believed to be around 8 million, it is believed by Albanians that that figure is closer to 13-15 million around the world, comprising;
*3,400,000 in Albania;
*1,800,000 in Kosovo;
*500,000 to 800,000 in the Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (though that number is disputed);
*60,000 in Montenegro;
*600,000 in Greece, including Cham, Arvanites, and the waves of immigration since the 1990s{{citation needed}};
*2,000,000 in Italy, including Arbereshe {{citation needed}};;
*5,000,000 (estimated) in Turkey {{citation needed}};;
*1,000,000 in Germanic countries including Germany, Denmark, and Switzerland {{citation needed}};.
*1,000,000 in far western Europe including the United Kingdom, France, Spain, Belgium & the Netherlands {{citation needed}};;
*1,200,000 million in North America (with large communities in Toronto & Windsor in Canada; in cities like New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Hartford, Cleveland, suburban Detroit, Tampa, Chicago, Las Vegas, Dallas, and Sacramento in the US);
*100,000 elsewhere, including Africa (Egypt and South Africa), Australia, Russia, Slovenia, Croatia etc {{citation needed}};.

==Albanian Nationalism==
Both Kosovo (a [[Serbia]]n province outside the control of Belgrade and governed since June 1999 by [[UNMIK]], backed by [[KFOR]], a [[NATO]]-led international force) and the western regions of the Republic of Macedonia have in recent years seen armed movements ([[Kosovo Liberation Army]], [[UCPMB]], [[Macedonian NLA]]) aiming either for independence, greater autonomy, or increased human and political rights.

The fate of Kosovo remains uncertain owing to the reluctance of the Albanian majority to contemplate a restoration of Serbian sovereignty and of the [[United Nations]] and NATO to separate the territory definitively from [[Serbia]] in contravention of [[:Wikisource:UN Security Council Resolution 1244|UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] from 1999.

The situation in the Republic of Macedonia seems to have been resolved by giving the Albanian minority greater government representation and the right to use the [[Albanian language]] in education and government.

== See also ==
* [[Albanians in Kosovo]]
* [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia]]
* [[Albanians in Greece]]
* [[Albanians in Turkey]]
* [[Cham Albanians]]
* [[Arvanites]]
* [[Albanians in Montenegro]]
* [[Albanians in Serbia proper]]
* [[Demographics of Albania]]
* [[History of Albania]]
* [[History of the Republic of Macedonia]]
* [[Kosovo war]]
* [[List of Albanians]]
* [[List of Albanian-Americans]]

==External links==
*[http://www.albanian.com Home of Albanians Online]
*[http://www.albca.com/aclis Albanian Canadian League Information Service (ACLIS)]
*[http://www.arnavut.com/ Arnavut.com (Albanians in Turkey). Media, community events and discussion forum (In Turkish)]

[[Category:Ethnic groups in Albania]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Europe]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Kosovo]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Macedonia]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Montenegro]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Serbia]]
[[Category:Ethnic groups in Greece]]
[[Category:Indo-European peoples]]

[[bs:Albanci]]
[[bg:Албанци]]
[[cv:Албансем]]
[[cs:Albánci]]
[[cy:Albaniaid]]
[[de:Albaner]]
[[et:Albaanlased]]
[[lv:Albāņi]]
[[nl:Albanezen]]
[[ja:アルバニア人]]
[[no:Albanere]]
[[pl:Albańczycy]]
[[ru:Албанцы]]
[[sq:Shqiptarët]]
[[sl:Albanci]]
[[sr:Албанци]]
[[fi:Albaanit]]
[[sv:Albaner]]
[[tr:Arnavutlar]]

User:Asterion

2006-06-10T16:46:05Z

C-c-c-c: fixed up the award :P

<center><table style="width: 99%; border: #ADD8E6 solid; -moz-border-radius: 15px; background: #FFFFFF; margin-bottom: 2px;"><tr><td>'''"''To die for a religion is easier than to live it absolutely.''"''' Deutsches Requiem, Jorge Luis Borges</td></tr></table></center>

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<table style="width: 100%; float: left; border: #ADD8E6 solid; -moz-border-radius: 15px; background: #FFFFFF;">
<tr><td><h3 style="-moz-border-radius-topright: 15px; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 15px; background: #ADD8E6; text-align: center; padding: 3px;">''My POV on Wikipedia''</h3></td></tr><tr><td><div style="padding-left: 6px; padding-right: 6px; text-align: left;">

[[Image:Asterion_with_Krasnogorsk-3_camera.jpg|left|thumb|210px|Asterion with [[Krasnogorsk|Krasnogorsk-3]] [[16mm film]] [[movie camera|camera]]]]
''When I came here first, I was intrigued. What on Earth motivates thousands of loyal contributers adding quality articles to this exceptional encyclopedia, in lieu of no apparent remuneration? A day as member of Wikipedia, I figured it out. Behind this mammoth encyclopedia, there lay a large community who cares for its members as family. I realised money is not the only remuneration that matters, peer review & peer appreciation of one's work can keep that person working from now to eternity. A word of appreciation, or even letting the person know his hard work has been noticed goes a long way to keep him editing. Wikipedia's magic lays in its simplicity of format. Before Wikipedia came out, even an insinuation that a free to edit encylopedia should exist would have been laughed at. Even Jimbo Wales admitted he expected a lot more vandalism and a lot less contributions. But peer-review is such a strong tool, that not only will the person contribute but also police himself (& others). An edit is all that's required to get hooked. So you see a redlink user, a guy with 5 edits to his name or even an IP address, give him a "good work mate". You might have created tomorrow's admin!''

Cheers,

[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 18:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

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<tr><td><h3 style="-moz-border-radius-topright: 15px; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 15px; background: #ADD8E6; text-align: center; padding: 3px;">''Subjects I want to read, to initiate or to contribute to''</h3></td></tr><tr><td><div style="padding-left: 6px; text-align: left;">

* [[Andalusia]] and [[Algarve]]
* History of [[Al-Andalus]], including the [[Algarve|al-Gharb]]
* [[Bengali]] history
* [[Blas Infante]], father of the Andalusian Nation
* Falkland Islands ([[Malvinas]])
* [[Former Yugoslavia]] and [[Albania]]
* [[Gibraltar]]
* [[Imazighen]] Culture and History
* [[Istria]]n geography
* [[Jorge Luis Borges]]
* [[Ladino]], [[Morisco]] and [[Mudejar]] history
* [[Lincolnshire]], England
* King Poet of Seville [[Abbad_II_al-Mu%27tadid|Al-Mu’tamid]]
* [[Sepharad]]
* [[Western Sahara]]
* [[Zastava|Yugo/Zastava]]
* and many many more
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<tr><td><h3 style="-moz-border-radius-topright: 15px; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 15px; background: #ADD8E6; text-align: center; padding: 1px;">''Awards''</h3></td></tr><tr><td>

{| style="text-align: center; width: 100%; border: 1px #ADD8E6 solid; margin-bottom: 4px;" cellpadding="2"
! style="background: #D1E8EF;" | Award
! style="background: #D1E8EF;" | Description
|-
| style="background: #EFFBFF;" | [[Image:Cool as a cucumber.PNG|111px]]
| style="background: #EFFBFF;" | For being cucumbery cool on [[Kosovo]], and enduring harassment as a result, I award you this (somewhat green-tinged) portrait of yourself! -- [[User:The Minister of War|The Minist]][[WP:EA|e]][[User:The Minister of War|r of War]] [[User talk:The Minister of War|(Peace)]] 21:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
|-
|-
| style="background: #EFFBFF;" | [[Image:Barnstar-rotating.gif|111px]]
| style="background: #EFFBFF;" | I award you this Barnstar for your many great contributions to Wikipedia. In the face of adversity you have shown great strength in dealing with sockpuppets, meatpuppets and Wiki-stalkers alike, and not to mention have maintained a tireless NPOV battle with nationalist users on every and any side. You'll be a great admin in no time. Cheers:) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
|-

|}

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<tr><td><h3 style="-moz-border-radius-topright: 15px; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 15px; background: #ADD8E6; text-align: center; padding: 3px;">''My Subpages''</h4></td></tr>
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*[[User talk:Asterion|'''Talk page''']]
*[[User:Asterion/RFA|'''RFA Monitoring''']]
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| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: {{{1|Green}}}; text-align: center; font-size: {{{id1-s|14}}}pt;" | '''{{{3|[[Image:Andalucialibre_flag.jpg|42px]]}}}'''
| style="font-size: 8pt; color: {{{8|{{{info-fc|black}}}}}}; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | {{{4|This user comes from '''[[Andalusia]]''' and lives in '''[[England]]'''.}}}
| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: {{{7|lightgray}}}; text-align: center; font-size: {{{id2-s|{{{id1-s|14}}}}}}pt;" | '''{{{5|[[Image:Flag of England.svg|42px]]}}}'''
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<tr><td>{{User 3000e}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User wikipedia:No personal attacks}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{user CVU2-en}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User wikipedia:RC Patrol}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links/Userbox}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User Concordia}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User ESP-member}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User es}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User en-5}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{User it-2}}</td></tr>
<tr><td>{{user SPATRA}}</td></tr>
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 238px; background: #F8F8FF;"
| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: #CCCCFF; text-align: center; font-size: 14pt;" | [[Image:Calligraphy.malmesbury.bible.arp.jpg|42px]]
| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em;" | This user understands other [[Romance languages]].
|}</td></tr>
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{{User Saints WikiProject}}
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;">[[:Category:User languages|Search user languages]]</td></tr>
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<tr><td><h3 style="-moz-border-radius-topright: 15px; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 15px; background: #ADD8E6; text-align: center; padding: 3px;">''Milestones''</h4></td></tr><tr><td><div style="padding-left: 6px; text-align: left; font-size: 96%;">
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ECHELON&diff=prev&oldid=22303799 Edit 1] (04:31, 1 September 2005)
** Corrected external link on [[ECHELON]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hibaldstow&diff=prev&oldid=23056542 Edit 45] (20:13, 11 September 2005)
** Created my first article: [[Hibaldstow]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_Gibraltar&diff=prev&oldid=43624212 Edit 500] (21:29, 13 March 2006)
** Apologised to user on [[Talk:History of Gibraltar]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kosovo&diff=prev&oldid=47880817 Edit 1000] (00:38, 11 April 2006)
** Advised user about complying with [[WP:CIVIL]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=prev&oldid=49437183 Edit 1500] (12:55, 21 April 2006)
** Revived dead link on [[Kosovo]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Manojlo&diff=prev&oldid=50621297 Edit 2000] (18:33, 28 April 2006)
** Welcoming [[User:Manojlo|new wikipedian]].
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<center><table style="width: 100%; border: #ADD8E6 solid; -moz-border-radius: 15px; background: #FFFFFF; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;"><tr><td>'''Number of articles on English Wikipedia:''' {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}</td></tr></table></center>

<center><table style="width: 100%; border: #ADD8E6 solid; -moz-border-radius: 15px; background: #FFFFFF;"><tr><td>'''"''Razed the garden, profaned the chalices and the altars, by horse the Huns broke into the Monastic library and they tore the incomprehensible books and they vituperated them and they burnt them, fearing their symbols and characters might be concealing secret blasphemies against their God, who was an iron scimitar...''"''' The Theologians, Jorge Luis Borges.</td></tr></table></center>

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__NOEDITSECTION__ __NOTOC__
[[es:Usuario:jornalero]]
[[Category:Wikipedian artists|Asterion]]
[[Category:Wikipedians in the United Kingdom|Asterion]]
[[Category:Wikipedians in Andalusia|Asterion]]

Talk:Kosovo/Archive 9

2006-06-10T16:35:30Z

C-c-c-c: /* Comparison of versions so far */

'''Archived discussions (latest first): [[/Archive 8]] [[/Archive 7]] [[/Archive 6]] [[/Archive 5]] [[/Archive 4]] [[/Archive 3]] [[/Archive 2]] [[/Archive 1]]
{{TrollWarning}}
{{calm talk}}
{{controversial3}}

Talk:Kosovo: Old resolved discussions are archived at [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 1]], [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 2]], [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 3]], [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 4]], [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 5]], [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 6]], and [[Talk:Kosovo/Archive 7]]
----
== This becoming STUPID! [sic] ==

I added list of districts and cities here with the purpose to IMPROVE article, not to start new revert war. The names are written in both, Albanian and Serbian, and the name order is that used by UNMIK. So, if somebody see problem with that, he should discuss that problem here. It must be noted that state of Serbia recognized UNMIK and accepted civil UNMIK rule over Kosovo, thus, I do not see reason for revert war here. Even when Milošević was in power Albanian was an official language in Kosovo. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 03:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with you, about the revert war part, Panonian. People should learn to discuss more here. AS of the official language in Kosovo, I must remind you that during Milosevic everything was in Cyrillic alphabet in Kosovo, including ID's, labels on shops, buses, administration, everything. But that is a black part of the history, not worth comparing to. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 11:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Probably because Kosovo is/was part of Yugoslavia at the time and Serbian in Cyrillic was the official language. I don't know, but I guess the as Albanian population boycotted everything Serbian then buses etc labelled in Cyrillic wasn't a self-imposed disadvantage. [[User:phildav76|Phil]] 13:46, 01 June 2006 (UTC)

::::Phildav76, a clarification: in Kosovo before Milosevic's apartheid was installed, Albanian, Serbian AND Turkish were the three official languages. The abolition of Albanian and Turkish were something new introduced by the one I mentioned above, not because Albanians boycotted anything. That was just one of the many other tools that regime used to oppress the majority of Kosovo's population. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 16:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::It is okay to spread propaganda (e.g. apartheid) but when you end up believing your own propaganda, that is where the danger is. [[User:phildav76|Phil]] 23:38, 01 June 2006 (UTC)

Care to explain for a non-native speaker what you meant by that Phildav76? I really like it simple, with no irony in it. ~Thanks.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::I was wondering about one thing today. What do you guys/girls think will happen with 1244 resolution, once (eventually) Montenegro gets recognized? Does it make sense to say that "now Serbia takes over what is left from Former Yugoslavia and the responsibilities of that resolution"? Seems like we might have to do major updating on those parts soon, where Serbia and Montenegro is mentioned as a successor of FRY, and Kosovo a de-jure part of it. Very curious how this evolves. Not that the Montenegro's independence affects Kosovo'spath to independence, but anyways it would be welcome. [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 11:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It will not affect it in any sense as Kosovo is recognised as a province of Serbia in S&M constitution. Regards, --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 12:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

::Let us wait and see :) So next will be "Serbia is a successor of FRY"? after Montengro is gone from that federation?? This resolution is getting funnier and funnier. [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 12:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:::No, that is not the point. S&M is the same as FRY. Kosovo is not a province of S&M but a province of Serbia anyway. Regards, --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

::I understand your point. As of now Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, whose status is still not defined anyways. That resolution is for a couple of months more. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 14:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:::: This is weird, SCG can't be the successor of FRJ. It's the successor of SFRJ (legally) - a state cannot be a successor of itself. Are youy suggesting that the Republic of Holland (declared with the Hague Manifesto of 1581) is '''not''' the successof of the United Dutch Provinces that existed there since 1576? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 21:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:Let me just correct a mistake there -- FRY = SCG, but FRY (and therefore also SCG) is *not* the successor to the SFRY. SCG had to reapply for UN membership; had it been recognised as the legal successor to the SFRY, it would have simply taken its seat. —[[User:Nightstallion|Nightst]][[User:Nightstallion/esperanza|a]][[User:Nightstallion|llion]] [[User talk:Nightstallion|''(?)'']] 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats right. Since one month I m traing to say that. But nobody dont wont to listen-- Hipi

::You are confusing Nightstallion's words. Resolution 1244 is relevant to FRY, which is the same as saying SCG. Regards, --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

== Archiving ==

I have moved the old entries to [[/Archive 8]] because the page takes too long to load. --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 10:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You have removed my post at talk page beacose the fact I have putit in your talk page. Ther was no personal atack how you have wrotit at the comment during the deletio of the post in your talk page. This is another fact about wat I have sayed to you.{{unsigned|suspected sockpuppet of permanently blocked user [[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]]}}

::Hipi, the copyvio text was removed before I moved the page. Besides, why are you adding text unrelated to the current discussion for? Please take some time to familiarise yourself with the copyright policy of Wikipedia too. I have already explained you this a few times but you insist on trolling around with my user page. Just to let you know that a lifting of your block was being considered but given your recent behaviour, I cannot see this happening at all. It is my fault for trying to be civilised with everyone. I should know better... [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 13:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Who is saing that is a copyvio (?) text, this is citat of a work. I diden uset that in the article. I have putit als source here for beter work and beacose the user Cernagora sayt to me that HRE is not serbian nationalist but he have only the serbian source. I dont know so gut english beacose that I dont work in the articel only in discussion side. But I know hat ther are some gut wikipedians and they are going to user this surce. (I know that you are not going to be that). You have sayed that I have maked personal atak at your talk page and deletet the my kritik for your work. Witch sentens is personal attack for you? Is this your civilised way to delet the post at your talk page and saying that is personal attack? I have no interes here for personal attack with nobody. I have experienc with that. Only if you present yourself als a hardliner of wikipedia Im going to give you a hard kritik. And wat are you doing, you are usenig your better english to diskrimined my work but that is not argument. You are not objetiv and that is not fair. Perhaps I can not do to much agains that but sombody is watching that, beacose I kow that from my work in sq:wikipedia. I dont let the new or the user witch dont know well albanian to be discrimedit. Even the user dont know albanian if he have facts I going to help him. Do you know way? -- {{unsigned|Hipi Zhdripi}}

::Well, in that case. Why don't you explain things, then? It is a copyright violation to reproduce texts from a book that is not in the public domain. By Wikipedia Fair Use policy, you are only allowed to quote sentences or short paragraphs. And yes, you have been harrassing me in my talk page with your silly comments that I am not really Spanish and that you and your friends are going to prove it. It is real sad that I had to get my talk page protected to stop your trolling. You could learn from [[User:Ilir pz]] and start to discuss things like a normal person. Goodbye. --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 14:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Sorry, if I hert you. I have explent way I dont belevie that you are t Spanish. This is not personal attack, (this is my opinion about you and my experienc with Spanish peopel and your work here is maken my opinion, dont forget everybody who know spanish can say thate) I going to prufe that (my opinion). What is wrong with that. If you are a Spanish you dont need to be worit. I m Albanian and everybody can think what he wount, everybody can profe his opinion. -- Hipi

:Well, feel free to check my Spanish wikipedia contributions if that satisfy your unhealthy curiosity. I accept your apologies. Regards, --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 17:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

==History of Kosovo==
History of Kosovo In "Travels in European Turkey" (London, 1850): E. Spencer gives an account of the Illyrian Empire:

::...The Illyrians founded an immense empire extending from Epirus ... to the Danube and the Black Sea and comprehending the whole of the maritime coast of Hungary to Venice and Triest, with Istria, Carnolia, Carinthia, Styria, and Friuli... History and tradition affords us many interesting details of the battles of the Illyrians with the ancient Greeks and the Romans... Napoleon was well versed in the history of these people when he flattered their national pride...(Vol. I, pp. 93-94)
----
As indicated by E. Spencer, the Illyrians fought, in fact, for a long time against the Romans, who eventually conquered the whole of Illyria in A.D. 9. Many Illyrian soldiers, who susbsequently served in the Roman army rose to high positions. Some became emperors and viceroys: Claudius II, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, Maximilian, Constantius, Valens, and Valentinian. Mention should also be made of Saint Jerome, one of the greatest scholars of his time. The Illyrians gave to Byzantium three of its greatest emperors: Constantine, who officially accepted Christianity; Justinius, who built Saint Sophia; and Justinianus, famous for his Code of Laws. The philologist Paul Kretschmer went so far as to maintain that the Illyrians actually founded Byzantium.

:Proud of what they considered their heritage (see E. Spencer, Travels... I, p. 94), the South Slavs became eager to recreate ancient Illyria by forming a union among themselves.
----
Albania was at that time a domain of the Turkish Empire comprising four vilayets or provinces: Shkodra - which included the Dukagjini Plateau (Metohija), Monastir (presently Bitolja), Janina, and Shkup (Skopje), presently in Macedonia. This latter province was more readily called Kosova by the Turks in memory of the victory of a battle on the Plain of Kossovo, the "Campo dei Merli" of old Venetian maps. The capital of this province had at times been Priština.6

:6. According to A. Boue, the "battles" that took place were not fought on the plain, but on its "plates-formes" at Gasimestan, "one and a half hours north of Pristina;" the name of Kossovo, he explained, was applied later to the Plain of Sitnica and the surrounding territory (A. Boue, op. cit., I, p. 142).
----
Owing to the efforts of the committee headed by A. Frasheri,'''7''' 80 delegates representing all four provinces convened at the city of Prizren, in the Vilayet of Shkup (Kosova) in June 1878, three days prior to the opening of the Congress of Berlin, whose purpose was to reconsider the decision reached by San Stefano's preliminary Peace Treaty. The assembly of these delegates was henceforth called The League of Prizren. Its task was to defend Albania's rights.

Kosova became thus for the Albanians the center of their resistance and they have ever since regarded this territory as a symbol of their struggle for independence.

:'''7'''. An Albanian patriot of broad culture (1839-1894). His younger brother, Sami, wrote in Turkish as well as in Albanian. Greatly admired for his Universal Dictionary of History and Geography (a six-volume encyclopedia) and for other writings, he is considered in Turkey as one of its most prominent poets. Having fought for Albania’s rights, he spent five years in prison. The sec.ond of the three brothers, Naim, is the most popular South Albanian poet.
----
As soon as the Serbs occupied the ceded territories, the Albanians were asked to evacuate them. With respect to the Albanians inhabiting those areas, Mr. Gould, Consul of Great Britain in Belgrade, wrote to the Marquis of Salisbury, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on Nov. 26, 1878:

I hear that the Servian Government has behaved with great and unnecessary harshness, not to say cruelty, toward the Albanians in the recently ceded districts. If my information is correct, and I have every reason to believe it to be so, the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of over 100 Albanian villages in the Toplitza and Vranja Valley were ruthlessly driven forth from their homesteads by the Servians in the early part of this year. These wretched people have ever since been wandering about in a starving condition in the wild country beyond the Servian frontier. They have not been allowed to gather in their crops on their own lands, which were reaped by the Servian soldiery... I ... casually stated to his Excellency (Ristic) that these facts had come to my knowledge, and that should they be confirmed I felt certain Her Majesty's Government and the majority of the Great Powers would call the Servian Government to account, and insist upon strict justice being done to these unfortunate people, whose only crime was their belonging to an alien race and another creed...'''10'''

:'''10'''. EM., Accounts and Papers (38); 1878-9; LXXIX 79, 574-575. Letter reproduced by Rizaj in op. cit. pp. 24 1-242.
----
As to the number of the Albanians inhabiting those territories, various statistics and extant documents give contradictory figures. According to a note of the administrative divisions dating from 1873, the district of the Sandjak of Niš had about 100 000 Albanians. As regards the number of refugees, the figures given by Prof. J. Cvijic for those who settled in Kosova is 30 000, that furnished by English documents, 100 000. According to Turkish sources, the number of the Albanians who were forced to leave the region amounted to 300 000.

On June 3, 1978, Rilindja (p.7), published a letter addressed by these miserable people (who were deprived of all means and many of whom were sick) to the European Powers requesting that at least a commission be set up to look into their serious problem.'''11'''

Leaving these helpless refugees to their sad fate, the Serbs colonized the region with astounding rapidity. Referring to the colonization of the area by the Serbs, V. Cubrilovic stated in his "Memorandum" (about which more will be told later) that "Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment in the wars of 1912-1918".

:'''11'''. For the data concerning the Albanians of these territories, see E. PlIana, "Les raisons et Ia maniere de Ia migration des refugies albanais du territoire du Sandjak de Nish a Kosova (1877-1878)," Gjurmime Albanologjike IX 1979, Prishtine, 1980, pp. 129-156. Cf. also R. MarmullakuAlbania and the Albanians , London, 1975, p. 24 (does not contain details).
----
The Great Powers eventually left the Balkans in the hands of Austria and Russia. The influence of the latter, however, grew stronger as time went by.

In regard to Kosova, Russia sent priests to Serbian monasteries situated in the region exalting, together with the Orthodox faith, heroes and deeds pertaining to Serbian legends.18 They opened schools which were hotbeds of Slav propaganda. Clearly, her purpose was to colonize the province where the Serbs were but an insignificant minority.

The West knew little at that time about the Balkan states. In fact, the ignorance was such that some missionaries who went to Macedonia to support the Bulgarian cause confessed that formerly they had been ignorant of the fact that there were Bulgarians in the Peninsula; they had thought that only Greeks lived there. Practically nothing was known, of course, relative to the Albanians; those unfamiliar with the question could be told anything. Thus, when two Russian consuls in Kosova and Monastir were killed by Albanians (who acted in self-defense), these acts were described as being committed by 'Moslem fanatics'. The two propaganda agents were presented as martyrs; their funerals were grandiose. Since Christianity was equated with civilization and Islam with backwardness, the Christians were regarded as the allies of the Great Powers. Thus the Catholic Albanians who are animated by patriotic feelings were ignored by design. The Albanians were depicted merely as backward Moslems and as allies of the Turks.

:'''18'''. "It seemed sheer folly to make a large and costly Serb theological school in a Moslem Albanian town and to import masters and students, when funds are so urgently needed to develop free Serb land" (ME. Durham,High Albania, London, 1909, p. 275). Even E. Noel-Buxton, of the Balkan Committee, whose attitude was pro-Slav, had to admit that "The spirit of chauvinism is but thinly veiled under the garb of churchmanship. Religion is degraded to the level of pretext for exciting national zeal" (Noel-Buxton, op. cit. p. 50).
----
Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.'''19'''

'''19'''. V. Djordjevic,Les Albanais et les Grandes Puissances, 1913 p. 8. No information of this kind is contained in von Hahn’s work.
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The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves.'''20'''

:'''20'''. According to Felix Adler, "The vice of vices is when we are held cheap by others sod then in our innermost soul start to think cheaply of ourselves." Protic, Gopcevic, Zupanic, Tomic, Djordjevic are some of the Slav authors who criticized the Albanians in a particularly uncivil way. Many others may be cited.
----
To be sure, there are established scholars - be they geographers, historians, anthropologists, or serious travelers and explorers - who have expressed opinions of a very different kind: H.N. Brailsford went even so far as to maintain that "from Byron's day downward it would be hard to find a Western European who has learned to know the Albanians without admiring them" (The New Republic, March 1, 1919). In fact those who had nice words on behalf of the Albanians were so numerous that the Serb S. Protic (Balkanicus) considered the tendency to praise the Albanians as highly ethical individuals and to describe them as "unusually gifted", to have become a fashion.'''21'''

:'''21'''. 5. Protic,Das Albanesische Problem und die Beziehungen zwischen Oestereich- Ungarn, Leipzig, 1913, p. 19.
----
The fact remains, however, that the latter writings were not accessible to many. The influential French daily Le Temps, published merely articles favoring the Slavs and Greeks, for France was then Russia's ally.'''22'''

:'''22'''. "Le journal parisien Le Temps avait mis ses colonnes a Ia disposition de ces detracteurs comme il les avait ouvertes pour les Grecs.. .," — "The Parisian daily Le Temps was at the disposal of these calumniators [i.e., of the Slays] as it was also at the disposal of the Greeks (Lumo Skendo, Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919, p. 3).
----
In order to achieve national unity with a delimited territory, the League had requested the Porte, in July 1878, to turn Albania into one vilayet. The request had not been granted. As a consequence, the Albanians, under their gallant leader Isa Boletini, a native of Kosova, openly took a stand against the Turks. All their activities were centered in the Kosova region, which became the cradle of their national struggle and thus acquired a special meaning for them.'''23'''

In 1912, when the Albanians seized Shkup (Skopje) and were about to enter Monastir (Bitolja), the Turks called a truce and granted them autonomy uniting the vilayets of Shkodra, Janina, Kosova, and part of Monastir. As a result of this Albanian victory, the government of the chauvinistic Young Turks Party was overthrown. The weakness of Turkey became thus evident.

The Albanians had administered a heavy blow to the Turks and rightly hoped for approval and sympathy, for, as Lord Goschen had rightly pointed out back in 1880, if the Turks lost Albania, they would lose their cause in Europe. Instead, the Albanian victory triggered the Balkan wars, the purpose of which was the annexation of Albanian-inhabited territories that were under Turkish rule.

At that time, Montenegro had been free from Ottoman rule for over forty years; Serbia and Greece for over eighty. These states, being independent, had their regular armies. When attacked on all sides (by the Greeks, the Montenegrins, and, of course, by the Serbs, who entered Kosova), the Albanians, aware of the great danger, hastened to raise their flag and declared their neutrality.

:'''23'''. SeeR. Marmullaku Albania and the Albanians, Hurst and Co., London, 1975, pp. 23-24.
----
The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbo-Montenegrins during the Balkan wars on the Albanian population were acknowledged by the Serbian socialist Dimitrije Tucovic (1881-1914) in his book Srbija i Albanija (published in 1946):

The bourgeois clamored for a merciless extermination and the army executed the orders. The Albanian villages, from which the people had made a timely flight, were burned down. There were at the same time barbaric crematoria in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive...'''24'''

:'''24'''. Cited by R. Marmullaku, op. cit., p. 137.
----
Brutalities committed by the Serbo-Montenegrins are also described in the Carnegie report. They may be best summed up in two short paragraphs taken from Mary Edith Durham's Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle (1920):

No Turks ever treated Armenians worse than did the two Serb peoples treat the Albanians in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church (p.235).'''25'''

:'''25'''. Cf. also Aubrey Herbert, M.P.: "Very little was known about Albania. The general opinion was that the Albanians were another branch of the Armenian family, and indeed, as far as massacres were concerned, this was most understandable . . ." (A. Herbert, Ben Kenilim,

:London, 1924, P. 24). According to ME. Durham, the slaughters of the Armenians were nothing compared to those of the Albanians: "The massacres of Adana and the resultant misery pale before the scarlet horrors committed wholesale in cold blood by the so-called followers of Christ" (Durham, Struggle for Scutari, London, 1914, p. 303).

:About these slaughters see 1. Albaniens Golgotha, Anklageacten gegen die Vernichter des Albanervolkes, gesammelt und herausgegeben von L. Freundlich, Vienna, 1913. — 2. Enquete dans les Balkans, Rapport de Ia Commission d’enquete de Ia Dotation Carnegie pour Ia Paix internationale, Paris, 1914.
----
As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise and restrain him from further brutality (p.238).'''26'''

:'''26'''. What surprised ME. Durham quite specially was the religious fanaticism of the Serbs:
----
"It was not astonishing that the Serbs hated Islam, but that they should fiercely hate every other Christian church, I had not expected. The Catholic was hated the most." According to Durham, the Moslem was to the Serbs "a lesser evil than the Catholic," (Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, London, 1920, p. 52). "The hatred of the Serb Orthodox for the Catholics was shown in 1913 in the Balkan war, when the Montenegrin troops, whose object was said to be to liberate Christians, fell upon the little church of Mazreku, trampled the Host underfoot, dressed up in the priestly vestments, danced about, and amused themselves by cutting noses from images of the saints and firing bullets into the crufix" (Some Tribal Origins ... p. 28).

In 1913, a number of soldiers led by a bandit clad as an Orthodox priest stripped and bayonetted to death Luigj Palici, an Albanian Franciscan from Gjakova, because he refused to cross himself in the Orthodox manner. "Austria intervened sharply. Had she not done so, in the words of a Catholic refugee, there would not have been a Catholic left" (E.C. Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, Harvard U.P., 1938, p. 317).

In 1919, a treaty concerning minorities was signed at Saint-Germain-en- Laye whereby the Yugoslav Government pledged to protect all citizens without discrimination as to race, nationality, and creed. Yet the persecutions against the Catholic Kosovars continued. Mother Teresa’s father, a native of Shkup (Skopje), and a noted Albanian patriot, was poisoned by the Serbs, as reported by his son Lazer Bojaxhiu in an interview published in Gente (Dec. 1979 andJan. 1980). Mother Teresa’s family was obliged to move to Tirana, where her mother and sister died (the former in 1974; the latter in 1976).

In 1929, was executed Father Shtjefen Gjecovi, a Franciscan, greatly respected by all the Albanians for his erudition and his righteousness. As a result, on May 5, 1930, three Catholic priests, obliged to leave the region, addressed the "League of Nations" a memorandum concerning the tragic plight of the Albanians in Yugoslavia (see H. Kokalari, Kosova, Rome, 1962, p. 165).
----
It should be reiterated that the unbelievable massacres were in no way committed as a result of a struggle between Christians and Moslems, as it was at that time believed by Gladstone and stressed in his speeches.'''27''' They were solely motivated by the desire to decimate the Albanian race. Not only Kosova was coveted, but all of North Albania

:'''27'''. Cf. E. Noel-Buxton: "Mr. Gladstone said, the Christian, who retained his faith at the price of slavery, when by recanting he could obtain every favour, is entitled to the name of martyr and to him Europe owes the gratitude" (op. cit., p. 27).— That the conversions of the Albanians would be taken as a pretext to expand territory was already pointed out by A. Boue who was for the freedom of all nations and had little respect for those who "for sheer purposes of invasion consider themselves chosen by God to exterminate the Moslems and make people happy." (". . . chez ceux, qui s’intitulent, par pure politique d’envahissement, les elus du Tres-Haut pour l’extermination des Musulmans et le bonheur du genre humain," Boue, Recueil d’itineraires dans Ia Torquie dEurope, 1854, I, "Avant-Propos."
-----
During World War I, Albania's neutrality was not respected and mass massacres continued.

At the turn of the century, the reports of the Ohio journalist J.A.Mac Cahan concerning the Bulgarian uprising, had shocked the West; as known, Russia used these accounts as a pretext to march against the Turks. By contrast, the Albanian cause did not benefit from the Carnegie report, nor by the frequent and moving declarations of philanthropists and journalists who, like M.E. Durham, were eyewitnesses to mass massacres of women and children, simply because it was not in the interest of the Great Powers to take Albania's defense.'''28'''

:'''28'''. No study is available on ME. Durham, except for that of Sh. Shaqiri, "ME. Durham dhe Shqiptar&,"Nentori, Oct. 1981, pp. 149-164. A talented painter and writer,a good historian and an excellent anthropologist (her diaries and other papers are available at the "Royal Anthropological Institute of Gr. Br. and Ireland," London, of which she was a member and to whose journal, Man, she contributed many articles), she also worked as a volunteer in Montenegrin hospitals as well as for the "Macedonia Relief Fund." Her first book was devoted to the Serbs (Through the Land of the Serbs, London, 1904). But, as pointed out by Aubrey Herbert, it was only their revolting cruelty that turned her affection into dislike" (A. Herbert, Ben Kendim , p. 220). Her later attitude toward the Serbo-Montenegrins is conveyed by a passage contained in Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle: "On arriving in London I packed up the Gold Medal given me by King Nikola and returned it to him stating that I had often expressed surprise at persons, who accepted decorations from Abdul Hamid, and that now I knew that he and his subjects were even more cruel than the Turk, I would not keep his blood-stained medal any longer. I communicated this to the English and Austrian press. The order of Saint Sava given me by King Petar of Serbia, I decided to keep a little longer till some pecularly flagrant case" (p. 25).
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The well-known Swiss geographer H. Hauser, rightly pointed out that the principle of nationality, like all other principles, cannot be applied in a strict and equitable manner given the fact that most places constitute, with respect to the population inhabiting them, a mosaic.'''29'''

'''29'''. H. Hauser, "Le principe des nationalites," (30-page pamphlet, reprint fromRevuepolitique internationale, March-April, 1916). See also A. van Gennep,Traite des nationalites, 1922, p. 24.
----

In 1878, Lord Goschen and Lord Fitzmaurice had been in favor of a large Albania comprising the Albanian-inhabited territories of the four vilayets.'''30''' But, at the Congress of Berlin it was decided -as already pointed out - that territories indisputably Albanian be handed over to Montenegro and to Serbia. Places connected with Albanian history and national pride, like Janina, Arta, Preveza, were allotted to the Greeks, who within a relatively short period of time were to exterminate the overwhelming Albanian population inhabiting them. No system of guarantees was applied. Albanians, numbering hundreds of thousands were to be forcibly sent to Turkey.

The manner in which Albanian territories were ceded to neighboring states clearly indicates how arbitrary decisions that make history may be. And one cannot but agree with Mircea Eliade (The Myth of the Eternal Return), who, with respect to the theory that valorizes historical events, to which the 19th century attached so much importance, pertinently remarked that such a theory could have been established only by thinkers who know nothing about injustices and miseries caused by history.

:'''30'''. A. Herbert, op. cit., p. 216 and M.E. Durham, Twenty-Years p. 83.
----
Albanian population lived, remained outside the borders assigned to her.'''31''' As Lord Fitzsimmons rightly remarked, "Albania was to start her career as a state mutilated from her birth". Indeed, as a nation humiliated in her pride, she had no place among her sister nations. She was doomed to poverty, bitterness, and complete isolation.

In regard to Kosova, a territory where Albanians displayed their most important activities for the independence of their nation and a region which, as some scholars contend, is the cradle of the Albanian people, the principles of ethnicity and self determination were not observed. Nor had they been taken into account when districts indisputably Albanian had been allotted to Montenegro and Serbia by the Treaty of Berlin. At that time, the principle of history had been ignored as well.

:'''31'''. The tragic fate of many of these Albanians, who remained outside the borders assigned to the state of Albania, was to populate Asia Minor. As indicated (p. 10), the guarantees stipulated by the Treaty of Berlin were not honored by Serbia. Likewise, over 300,000 Albanians inhabiting the regions ceded to Greece were expelled by the Greek Government and obliged to settle in Turkey as a result of an exchange treaty of the Turkish and the Greek Governments (see, among others, A.A. Pallis, "The exchange of populations in the Balkans," Nineteenth Century, March, 1925, pp. 376-387). Pallis begins his article by saying that ‘the exchanges of populations, as a method of settling the problems of minorities, has been condemned in many quarters as a barbarous and dangerous innovation in internal politics." The Greek delegate at the Lausanne Conference had, in fact, declared that ‘Greece agrees that the compulsory exchanges shall not be applicable to her Moslem subjects of Albanian origin." However, the Greeks declared the Moslems of Tchameria as being "merely Albanophones," but in reality Greeks, and on this basis forced them to emigrate (Pallis art. cit.). Pallis argued that they emigrated of their own accord and that they were pleased in Turkey. This, however, is not the opinion of Ruth Pennington who returned to England in 1927 after ten months of work with the immigrants, ‘In Turkey the are 300,000 Albanian-speaking immigrants. Of these at least 10% would willingly shift their quarters and move again seeking for better land, to rejoin cousins and friends, who have already moved. Turkey does not wish for any further depopulation, but in spite of official prohibition, for the next 10 to 20 years there will be a constant leakage . . ." (Near East and India, Sept. 15, 1927, p. 333).
----
Although in 1913, the population of the south Albanian region ceded to Greece was over 90% Albanian, no Albanian schools or newspapers were ever allowed. This population has been almost extirpated on account of the harsh treatment to which it was subjected.

When, following World War I, the Dalmatian question was discussed, the fact that the West Adriatic coast had previously belonged to the Venetians, Austrians, Hungarians, and - in parts - to the Turks, and that, moreover, Slav colonization of the Coast was a relatively recent event in history (for, although the Slavs had settled in some parts of the Coast already in the 7th century, colonization was still going on as late as the beginning of the 20th century),'''32''' did not have an adverse effect relating to the claims of the South Slavs. According to M.R. Vesnic, ...except for historical arguments... no present day consideration would authorize Italy to spell out such pretentions. Economically, geographically, and from the point of view of morale, these shores are inseparable from the hinterland which is Yugoslavia.'''33'''

:'''32'''. Austria supported the Slavs against the Italians. Cf. M.E. Durham: "The Slavizing process in Dalmatia visibly progressed until the German-Austrians began to realize that they were warming a viper and feel nervous" (Twenty Years p. 13); cC. also U. Biscottini, Sull italianita della Dalmazia, 1930, p. 55.

:'''33'''. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16.
----

Thus, disregarding historical considerations, Yugoslavia was allotted territories that were vast beyond her wildest dreams: to her devolved the beautiful Dalmatian Coast, where the Slavs had not ruled before, except for brief periods of time (a claim contested by the Hungarians) on some portions of it; to her was ceded Macedonia where the Serb population was insignificant and to which the Serbs had no claims before 1885;'''34''' to her was allotted the Vojvodina (Banat) where a certain number of Serbs had been hospitably allowed to settle in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The newly created state of Yugoslavia also retained territories which, regardless of the principles of ethnicity and self-determination had been previously granted to Serbia and Montenegro by the Treaty of Berlin and forcibly annexed by them.

:'''34'''. In 1880, the French consul in Scutari, when describing Macedonia in an "Aperiu geographique" of Albania, prepared by him for the French Government, did not even mention the Serbs: ‘La Macedonie est en effet partagee entre les Albanais, les Grecs, les KutzoValaques et les Bulgares," — Macedonia is divided between Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Bulgarians," (unpublished document contained in Albanie, Dossier I, "Archives de la Defense," Chateau de Vincennes, Paris). Cf. also M.E. Durham, The Serajevo Crime (London, 1925): "When I was living in Ochrida in the winter of 1903-4, a Serb schoolmaster had but just arrived. The largest school in town was the Bulgar one. The Greeks made a bad second. In spite of all his efforts, the Serb only succeeded in scraping up about 50 persons including his own family, the Greek priest and myself, to celebrate Saint Sava’s day. The majority were poor school children picked up in the town. In those days anyone who said that the Serbs would one day own Ochrida would have been thought insane" (p. 27). II ‘Dr. Milovanovich admitted in 1898 that the Serbs did not begin to think about Macedonia till 1885" (E. Noel-Buxton, Balkan Problems and European Peace, London, 1919, P. 27). /1 In regard to Macedonia, A. van Gennep, citing the Carnegie Report, criticized the Serb scholars Belic and Cvijic, attributing no scientific value to their research, because their sole purpose, according to the Carnegie report, was "to support the political claims of Serbia" (Van Gennep, Traitet� &s nationalites, Paris, ed. Payot, 1922, P. 202).
----
Faust, when translating the New Testament into his mother tongue, rendered with "action" the meaning of "logos", thus writing: "at the beginning was action".'''35''' As prototype of modern man, Faust did not believe in the fascination and power of the word, as traditional doctrines do. Since then, however, sociologists and anthropologists, especially Frazer, have pointed out the magic that not merely traditional doctrines, but also the so-called primitive peoples attach to certain words and names, the use they make of them in myths, and how these myths affect them. In his turn, Freud has rightly remarked that the primitive mind is contained in all of us. We are impressed by words. Indeed, the suggestive power emanating from some particular words and names that affect our unconscious, especially when used in myths, surpasses action. More exactly, words may become dynamic symbols; they automatically generate action owing to the very magic contained in them.

In fact, Old Serbia acquired for the Serbs a magic power similar to that contained in Illyria.

a. It was asserted that Stara Srbija was the cradle of the Nemanjis, the Serbian kings. Special emphasis, in this regard, was laid on the Glorious Empire of Stefan Dušan.

b. Of foremost importance was considered the Battle of 1389 against the Turks on the Field of Kosova. It was somehow implied in various writings that Czar Dušan's Empire was sacrificed on that battle which was said to have been fought by the Serbs alone to protect Europe.

c. The Serbs who wanted to prove that the Albanian-inhabited region had formerly been ethnically Serb, underscored and proclaimed widely what it became known as the Serbian Exodus or the Emigration of the Serbs to Hungary. It was stressed that the Serbs, as a result of the Austro-Turkish wars of 1690 and 1735, had been obliged to evacuate the region and emigrate to Hungary under the leadership of their bishop, Arsenije III Crnojevic. And that, subsequently, the land, once vacant, had been colonized by the ferocious Albanians assisted by the Turks. The Albanians inhabiting Kosova were thus considered as recent settlers who had no right to be there.

These important issues which played a paramount role in the delimitation of the Albanian borders shall be discussed in PartII.

:'''35'''. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16. {{unsigned|Hipi Zhdripi}}
---------
:::Hipi can you please share the link where you found the info, so we can check if sources are reliable and verifiable. Thanks for the info. (Asterion, thanks for restoring the text, that was removed by someone) greetings, [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] 20:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

== Anyone out there? ==

Where is everyone? I thought all new changes would be discussed beforehand as a matter of respect? (This also goes for unsigned edits, Hipi) --[[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

:: Well considering a lot of us are in school/university at the moment...we don't have much time to contribute, only revert ocassionally:P. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Reverting is not to do if you dont have much time to contribute. Instead discuss a little, that helps more. Asterion, I am a bit busy with school, for another 2-3 days, then will dedicate more time here. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I understand. What is the story with the map now? Have I missed anything?!? [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 21:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, Ilir, don't take this personal, but I've made a few changes to the article.

Actually, just one - the map. ''Kosovo is defined as autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro'', thats in the article. So, now we have a map that points that out. --[[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

::Boris not even [http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/u_fokusu.php?id=24&start=0&nav_id=198156 b92] has that map that you put there. Do not start revert wars for no reason. I proposed a [http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figura:LocationKosova.PNG map] for those who like maps, but none liked the idea. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. OK, Boris, you may have a point but I am afraid this is going to take things back to square one. Is it worth it? I have serious doubts indeed. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 21:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fair warning ==

Revert activity at this page has been flagged at [[WP:AN]], and as it's now reached the point where a user's first edit (I use the term loosely, I suspect) was a revert here. Revert changes if you must, but note that doing so repeatedly, without regard to talk page discussion, or in egregiously suspicious circumstances, may be regarded as disruption. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 23:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

::Fair enough. This page was stable for some time, and editors from both sides achieved a consensus and were rationally editing, until recently when someone started changing maps, from some IP in Canada, some suspicious [[Special:Contributions/SerbianMafia]] account etc. I would appreciate some attention by any admin here in such cases. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==
*Please stop vandalizing this article, it's gone far enough. --[[User:Krytan|Krytan]] 01:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with you fully. How about you help by stopping yourself?![[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 01:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:Good to hear. You also broke the 3RR rule, lawl. --[[User:Krytan|Krytan]] 01:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You're trying to push me toward that using your multiple usernames, right? Not difficult to guess.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 01:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:Multiple usernames? I don't understand. I don't have multiple usernames. Although I don't break wikipedia rules either, like somebody I know ;) I'll be doing some reporting after. Turns out you might not get banned today, maybe tomorrow? Cheers, --[[User:Krytan|Krytan]] 01:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

== Sorry, but this is a invasion of sebian account in en:Wikipedia ==

Im waitting if any administrator is going to do something agains this invasion. Now Im going to sleep. Ilir ky invasion nuk mund të pritet me diskutime ko është më se e qartë. Po më dhimbset PANONIA dhe ti, në fund të fundit puna e ju dy do të dëmtohet nga ky invasion. --[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 01:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:Please keep it in English, for the rest of the users to understand. There is no "invasion" of Serbian accounts. All the best, --[[User:Krytan|Krytan]] 02:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

== Blocks on the basis of checkuser result ==

Given [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_CheckUser#Bormalagurski.2FC-c-c-c|this]], I've blocked several users involved in the recent spree of reverts. If there are additional undiscussed reverts, ''in either direction'', either from editors who've repeatedly reverted before, or who "show up out of nowhere", I'm going to block for disruption without further warning. Let's see some discussion, and a ceasation of the sniping and tag-team reverts. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

== Sockpuppet thing ==

I will automatically revert any unsigned edits due to latest batch of sockpuppetry incidents. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 07:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

== Naming convention ==

We agreed the name Kosova would not be used as not commonplace in English language. Therefore, the correct term to use in Wikipedia is Kosovo. Kosova is POV. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 11:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The term ''Racak Massacre'' is POV. This is not even been used in the dedicated article, [[Racak incident]]. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 11:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The addition of this text is POV and is not verifiable: ''In a number of cases, Albanian families were expelled from their apartments to make space for the refugees''.

''The victims have been executed by Serb forces, which were refusing to allow proper autopsy of the victims'' is simply not true as Helena Ranta and other forensic teams were immediately allowed.

''After the [[Dayton]] Agreement in 1995, Albanians organized into the [[Kosovo Liberation Army]] (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics against Serbian police forces. Yugoslav forces allegedly committed war crimes in Kosovo, although the Serbian government claims that the army was only going after suspected Albanian "terrorists".'' is not only POV but sarcastic. The previous text was a neutral alternative: ''After the [[Dayton]] Agreement in 1995, an armed movement called the [[Kosovo Liberation Army]] (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics, took shape in western Kosovo. It was mainly composed of local youngsters, unemployed and farmers.''

I would appreciate an explanation. Regards, [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 12:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with the naming convention, as long as none adds the "metohija" part to the name, in return.
::I do not agree with your questioning the cases of Albanian families being expelled to mkae space for the refugees from Krajina etc. I will find facts for that very soon. Also do not agree that ``ìt is not```true that the victims were executed by Serb forces in the Racak Massacre. That what happened there cannot be described in any other way but a massacre, civillians were shot from a close distance. The forensics did prove that.
::The "neutral" alternative you provide to describe KLA is really funny. It makes it sound as if NO educated people were in such organization. I can tell you you are very mistaken. Hence that ridiculous statement is not neutral at all, whoever added it should have not speculated but instead read a bit more. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::That sentence can come off (I did not write it, though I do not take it as offensive). My point was about the last sentence of the version replaced by Hipi. Also, the word ''massacre'' is semantically loaded and it is not used in the Racak incident article either. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 17:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The first line of "Racak incident" says "The Racak incident (also called the Racak massacre or Racak operation)". What do you mean it is not used? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 17:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:Precisely the same than when I ask you to use Kosovo and not Kosova. This is not the article name, as it was deemed too biased. [[User:Asterion|Asterion]] [[User talk:Asterion|talk to me]] 18:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

== List of presidents ==

If this section is to remain it should be accompnied by some explanatory information. To begin with, it should be noted that these 'presidents' of Kosovo are not and have never been internationally recognized. Rather, they were the inofficial representatives of the kosovo albanian population.
Wikipedia should be used to convey facts, not to push a political agenda. So, although the 'presidents' were representatives of the majority of the people of Kosovo, they were, in fact, not the officially recognized as such.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

So, if no one is opposed (and gives a reason why) I'll something on the pre 1999 presidents of Kosovo.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 09:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::I am not sure presidents from 1989 to 1999 should be added as presidents. During that time apartheid existed in Kosovo, so they were not legitimate presidents. Besides, they were not called presidents, but something like "the head of the committee" or something. The first time Kosovo had a president was after 1999, with Ibrahim Rugova being the first. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

== SCG nonexistant ==

I will make one thing clear. As 1244 does not say that Kosovo is formally a part of Serbia, I will not allow people to alter that in the preamble of Kosovo article. Call your senses, please. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

However, it does say it is formally part of Former Yugoslavia, who's heir is, as of right now, Serbia:)))). Get over it Ilir, stop denying facts. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:Whatever. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you limiting your vocabulary to "whatever"? [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:: Lol sorry Boris:P [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, Ilir. I think your feeling a little down. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

:At least Montenegro is gone? :) --[[User:Krytan|Krytan]] 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is official finally. UNtil 1244 is changed and adapted to any new version, it does not belong here. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 07:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

== Official status of Kosovo ==

In the article it states that Kosovo is "autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under UN administration." As Yugoslavia changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro, shouldn't this also be stated in the article. In the case the union between Serbia and Montenegro is ended, shouldn't Kosovo, de jure, become a part of the Republic of Serbia?

What do you think?
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 07:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::No it shouldn't. You canno just derive one statement to the other, according to some "logic". [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Assuming the union between CG and Serbia ends, then The Republic of Serbia will be the heir or the Republic of Yugoslavia, and thus, have de jure jurisdiction over Kosovo. Why else would the EU, the UN, the US and other involved parties recognize the Republic of Serbia's government in Belgrade as the legitimate negotiating party in the Vienna talks over the future of the province? If Kosovo is not de jure part of Serbia, what are they negotiating about?

I know a lot of Kosovo Albanians like to think that Kosovo is an independent country or simply just a territory under UN administration. However, the fact, stated in 1244, is that it is recognized as a part of Yugoslavia. And, as Yugoslavia has ceased to exist it is recognized as part of the Republic of Serbia.

Who is saying that Serbian Govement (Serbia) is regodnasied als the UN member. Perhaps Kosovo is going tp be regodnasied and Serbia with Vojvodina are going to spleet. After sometime Sandjak and Serbia???? How you areseeng Serbia is a small place. It is like a bothel without milk, out side the serbian nationalist has maked wite color and you are saying that it is milk?????

:Perhaps Kosovo might be or might not be recognized. Vojvodina and Serbia will never split, because Vojvodina is Serbia. The actual name is Serbian Vojvodina, but because it's within Serbia, it doesn't need to have that in front. Sandžak? That's not even recognized. It's people like you who want to tear up Serbia. But if that's your mission, learn English first. Sign your edits too. [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 21:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sandžak ( That's not even recognized???? ) and Vojvodina is recognized yes? Sandjak needs a littel more time to be recognized one or two yeare.

I know a sebians siged the song
:Ko to kaze, ko to laze da Serbia je mala kan nam Belgrada Pasaluk je dala.

== Two things I compel to complain ==

1. The [[Serbian dinar]] has been removed from the [[currency]] in the article.

2. It mentions (now Serbia) instead of the recent (now Serbia and Montenegro). If this refers to the dissolution of the [[State Union of Serbia and Montenegro]], they're far from being dissolved - the results of the referendum are still '''''5%''''' off, and we'll know final results '''''tonight'''''. There is a long road ahead of Serbia and Montenegro, regardless of whether the Montenegrin independence referendum has succeeded or failed. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 18:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

== The table ==
The map doesn't even show Kosovo within Serbia, like the Vojvodina map. Like this, it looks as if Kosovo is independent. [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::Maybe because Kosovo is not within Serbia? didnt you wonder about that? ~Kosovo is soon to be de-jure recognized as independent, as de-facto it is. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Now, Ilir, where are the sources to support your claim? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh jeez... but every map I look at, everywhere, Kosovo is still within Serbia. And Kosovo can be as independent as they want, at least let Leposavic and other Serb-majority municipalities stay with Serbia. RS could unify with Serbia too. [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::I am none to decide that what you wish. Contact group has said specifically that Kosovo will not be devided, at any cost. And the status has to be acceptable to [http://www.google.no/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/declarations/88236.pdf&e=14977 be acceptable to the people of Kosovo], which means independence will be the result, sooner or later. But according to Serbian sources that is to happen in [http://blic.co.yu/arhiva/2006-05-19/strane/tema.htm November] Sorry for the diappointment. Montenegro is not the last part of former Yugoslav federation to be formally recognized as independent. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Don't rush into the future. Wait until Montenegro becomes independent. Also - exactly what you said: ''will'', meaning that Kosovo is ''not'' independent yet; no? --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It was good while it lasted :+) I'm happy that Montenegro is gone. And now Kosovo? I could really care less. I would want what's good for the Serbian people. However, when that independence day comes, then you will use this template: {{tl|Infobox Country}}. Otherwise, the same table as Vojvodina should be used. [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. So what happens with it I care less than I care for what happens with a tribe in a tribe in African jungles. I don't mind that you don't care about Kosovo. Since you don't I encourage you not to involve in edit warring, out of no reason. The template for country will be used when the time comes. As Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, no template for such cases exists. Hence, it should stay as it is. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

''It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways.'' How? [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::No comment. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright. The only reason I thought Kosovo was within Serbia was because of the Serbian constitution, but ok. [[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 23:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

:Not just the Serbian constitution - read up (or in the Archive) - every single international source from the List of World Countries to the CIA considers Kosov a part of Serbia. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what all the fuss is about since it's very clear - "Kosovo is a province of Serbia currently under UN administration. Talk are going on with the aim of giving the province conditional independence by the end of the year." How can this be 'controversial'? Every government in the world recognizes this. All published maps/atlases of Europe (and of the world) show this. Look at Wikipedias map of Europe for example [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_countries_map_en.png]]. I'm getting ready to change the current version to show this and let those who don't accept the facts get upset.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 08:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

== Image of destroyed Serbian church ==
* [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4259918889990083523&q=serbia Why? the Serbian Church] [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7443721333843429499&q=Croatia]
* '''Atention''' [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8399080813244347471&q=Bosnia is real is not propagander masaker]
[[Image:Crkva.JPG|thumb|left|200px|A [[Serbian]] church, before and after it was destroyed in the [[2004 unrest in Kosovo|pogrom of 2004]]]]
During the last edit reversions going around, people have also been removing and adding back in this image. I think we should discuss it here. Personally, I do not have a real opinion on the matter, but it certainly cannot be dismissed that also many Serbian people and buildings suffered from the war. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 10:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

::If we keep uploading pictures of how people suffered in Kosovo, I would have to upload tons of such with mutilated bodies of Albanian civillians. The above mentioned page belongs to the [[2004 pogrom in Kosovo]], and other war pictures to [[Kosovo war]]. I think we should agree on this, otherwise I will have to upload some pics soon. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Although I understand your opinion, my only goal is to reach consensus whether or not an image like this should be included in this article. I would tend think it shouldn't, since it is a general article on Kosovo and the image has little relation to that. But by reaching consensus on that issue, we at least can deal better with the continious reversions regarding that image and images like it. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 10:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a look at the article you mentioned and I agree the image would suit better in [[2004 pogrom in Kosovo]]. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 10:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

::Good, so I remove it then. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I put it back:))). Guess will just have to put pictures up of dead Serbs. And the only people that wound up "dead" that were Albanians, were KLA forces. Good day shqiptar.[[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 12:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear C-C-C-C, I strongly disagree that this image has a place in this article dealing in general with Kosovo. We gave a fair place in another, more suitable article, [[2004 unrest in Kosovo]]. Without starting a revert war, if you disagree, can we first discuss the matter please? Also, can you refrain from calling a edit like this ''vandalism'', when we are trying to obtain a reasonable solution for the matter here?[[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 13:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If we let this picture in the article, then we must put the horror pictur from serbian masaker Kosovo at first WW I , WWII, Balkan firs, secend and last. Destroid monument of Prizren Liga the simbol of catholic, muslim and arthodox Albanias in all the World, ect... .

Funny, Serbs were fleeing Kosovo in WWI Hipi. And learn some English, or go back to Shqip Wiki. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
----
Why the srbian church?
{video document}
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=43761593792646742&q=serbia Sart with suporting demo and masaker] 
Show is going on
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4259918889990083523&q=serbia 0] [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1106224774210658444&q=serbia 1] [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6898331879452910823&q=serbia 2] [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3506718512615855417&q=serbia 3] 
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2697219212819574923&q=Kosare Game Over in Koshare, Kosovo] 
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6431302053204441995&q=Kosare Today screaming]--[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 21:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

==Ciracassians==

The article states that: ''There was a small minority of Circassians in Kosovo Polje(Fushë-Kosovë in Albanian) but they were repatriated to the Republic of Adygea, in Southern Russia, following threats by the KLA[6]''. I am aware of the Circassians of Kossovo since [[Noel Malcolm]] gave generous mention of their presence in this province in his well-known tome. They arrived in the Balkans (at that time still Turkey in Europe) after the Russo-Turkish wars of 1877-1878. Many of them were shipped up on the [[Danube]] and disembarked at [[Vidin]] from where they continued their journey to the Ottoman-ruled Kossovo. Many of them remained in what is today Bulgaria especially in the towns on the right bank of the Danube. Until recently there was a compact Ciracssian village very close to [[Salonica]] called Tserkassoi (in the meanwhile the Greek patriots dilligently re-baptized it Ayios Serafimos: its current name). Yet it is the first time when I hear about their being sent 'back' (after 130 years?) to [[Adygea]] in what is today Southern Russia by the "KLA'. Sorry, I one don't believe this made up story. Any concrete source or refferences? [[User:Apostolos Margaritis|Apostolos Margaritis]] 17:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:That is indeed an intriguing claim. I think that the correct term is [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/143667.stm "fled"]. [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] 17:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::WEll, at the end of the day google sorts everything out. Even romantic tales like that of the Circassians are inevitably [[cached]]. Malcolm describes their amazing beauty (women very beautiful, men very handsome) and about how they were accused by the locals that they steal horses and eat [[carrion]]. Many of them perished after contracting [[typhus]]. And now back to Mother Russia which they once so much hated? [[User:Apostolos Margaritis|Apostolos Margaritis]] 17:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

== Someone removing legitimate links and other ==

Someone keeps removing the links that I provide. One of them is an [http://www.euinkosovo.org/uk/invest/invest.php EU] link which proves that Euro is the official currency, approved by the international community in Kosovo. The other one is a link to [http://vetevendosje.org/ Vetevendosja] an Albanian movement in Kosovo for Self-determination. I clearly stated that is is a pro-Albanian site. I do not see why would one remove these parts? I also added categories, and fixed minor spelling mistakes. No need to remove them either. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

:: Question, why is the link "national awaking of Albania", or whatever is it on there. If we have to delete everything involving Serbia, why not this too?[[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not "whatever", but national awakening included Kosovo, hence it is an appropriate link. if you do not know much and want to, then look for info, but do not revert it without knowing. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

:: Then why can't we add Serbian politics on there? Obviously representatives of Serbia got invited to come to Vienna for the talks, so why shouldn't it be important? And if Serbia is invited, then they must be seen as a key player obviously, which you are nevertheless trying to deny. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Vienna talks and National Awakening of Albanians are more than a century apart. How relevant is your comment? That serbian delegation is taking place in the talks that is indicated in the first paragraph of the article. What is your point?[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

:: My point is, why is Serbia being invited? (because Kosovo is still legally part of S & M) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Because Serbia's govt is representing the interests of Kosovo Serbs :), and because it will have a lot to pay, war damages, provide information for the hidden bodies of Albanian victims transported from Kosovo to Serbia. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

War damages? What war damages is the Kosovo government paying to ethnic Serbs? [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, war damages. That is yet to come. Some war damages can never be repaired, thousands missing, and more than 10000 Albanians killed. Kosovo govt to pay war damages to ethnic Serbs? :))))))))))) when did kosovo's govt send troops (military or police) to massacre Serbs???!?!? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well since the Kosovo government was and is still primitive, they sent KLA fighters. Fortunately for the KLA, a lot of Albanian civilians joined them. :))) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What war damages are they paying for destroying centuries worth of architecture, art, and taking away religious and civil freedoms of Serbs? What have the Croatians repaid for expelling 300,000 Serbs out of the Krajina? [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

::This is getting too long, and you keep jumping from a topic to another. I have no information about the war in Croatia, so I cannot speculate. You seem to have information, but share it in "Croatian war" wiki page, here is not the place. Kosovo government does not send killers to kill civillians. Some other government is talented at that, and you know who I am talking about, some more "civillized" government :))). KLA does not exist for more than 6 years now. You are just misleading. End of discussion for today. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright...you busted me, I tried to be nice to you. Let's admit what really happened. ALbanians got fed up with the slow indepedence process and decided, "What the heck, let's just kill them all now" and ''attempted''to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Serbs and other minorities. (Un)Fortunately, more Albanians wound up dead than Serbs. Blame KFOR, not us. Anyways, non-existant? I guess it was just school teachers and babysitters who went insane on Serbs in 2004, and have been attacking them ever since and well before. Yes, that would explain it. Anyways, didn't the so called KLA become Kosovo's new "defenders" (or murders)? Aren't they controlled by the government? Wouldn't it be right assume that what they do what is handed down as an order by the Kosovo government? Funny, who else does all of Kosovo's drug dealing, and human trafficking? The UN? Sleep on it, maybe you'll have a vision of dead Serbs again.:)))) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]]

::Whatever. you are so young, and so full of hatred and irony. Sad. No time to answer to such nonsense.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 08:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Young? Indeed. Full of i0rony? Oh very much so, too much in fact. Hatred? Maybe for peanuts, that's of course becaues they're murderous little devils at times. I better keep track of all my food, it may get contaminated now! I have sealed my own fate...hooray.

P.S. Happy you finally admitted Kosovo is in Serbia. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

== Where is Kosovo? ==

I don't see why someone would have anything against describing Kosovo as a''' UN administered province in southern Serbia'''. This is how the vast majority of western media describe Kosovo. The UN resolution 1244 defines it as a part of Yugoslavia, of which Serbia is the successor state (in the UN and with regard to international comittments and agreements). Describing it as being in the '''Central Balkans''' sounds very contrived (you never hear it described as such in media). Once Kosovo has gained independence it will be appropriate to describe it as being in the Central Balkans. However, it's not there yet.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 09:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::I appreciate that you care to know where Kosovo is, Osli73. Why do you insist that Kosovo has to be a part "of something" ? Kosovo according to its constitutional framework is a compact entity under UN administration. In my travellign docouments, in the part where country should be specified it says "territory under interim UN administration". Where is the problem with my definition? Feel free to browse through [http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm Constitutional Framework] and tell me where it says that Kosovo is a part of Serbia? I will cite in the document point 1.1. '''1.1 Kosovo is an entity under interim international administration which, with its people, has unique historical, legal, cultural and linguistic attributes.''' This document is '''approved by all the international community''', and is the document with the highest value there. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:Yet again someone suspected that the above documents were prepared by the Kosovo institutions, I must repeat myself, UN administration in Kosovo has released the documents that I mentioned. You are making me cite the constitutional framework now: "CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR PROVISIONAL SELF-GOVERNMENT UNMIK/REG/2001/9 - 15 May 2001 " and the travel documents UNMIK issued documents. What part of this was prepared by the Kosovo's government (which by the way is not only Albanian)?This justifies me fully to remove the speculations you added on its status, which ignore the above mentioned document. Thanks for understanding.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::According to the UN (that has the area under its administration) Kosovo is officially part of Serbia. When/If it will be independent, we may remove this sentence. here are 3 maps of the UN depicting Kosovo as part of Serbia [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/southyug.pdf], [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/yugoslav.pdf], [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/world.pdf]. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 22:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The maps you showed are old, Montenegro is not in that map anymore. Hence, invalid sources. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:Montenegro will be part of the federation till end 2006. do not rush history. furthermore, the Montenegrin referendum did not make Kosovo independent. they are two different things. before u revert, provide sources that clearly show Kosovo as not been officially part of Serbia. I can find more, u know, from UN, EU, etc. I think we should stick on reality...when Kosovo becomes independent (which is a matter of time, in my opinion) the paragraph will have to change. but not at the moment. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 22:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::I am providing you with sources ratified in Kosovo, by the international community. I am not sure what did I say above that is my POV? I kept citing all the time. My POV is very different from those documents, but my point in Wikipedia is to cite as much as possible, for the claims and edits I provide. Thanks, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::There is such a thing as picking the sources you want to believe. Not every source is reliable, but the UN and EU ones are. If you pick Albanian sources, you get the story you want to hear. If you ask any country in the world where Kosovo is, they'll say it's in Serbia, and so will the UN and EU. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 23:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::::Trust me both, i follow NPOV policies. i think that the current version is clear enough, stating both who has the area under its control (UN) and to whom it still officially belongs (Serbia). saying 'de facto serbian' is the serbian POV, saying 'not having to do anything with serbia' is the Kosovar (or Albanian) POV. the way it is now is NPOV, and furthermore it is the reality. Regards --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 23:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:HELL-ooo the sources I gave are from '''UN''' for God's sake, I am not picking anything. It is the most important document in Kosovo. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::I read the document (not all of it, in so short time, of course)... it also says: ''Considering that, building on the efforts undertaken by UNMIK and on the achievements of JIAS, including the valuable contribution by the people of Kosovo, and with a view to the further development of self-government in Kosovo, Provisional Institutions of Self-Government in the legislative, executive and judicial fields shall be established through the participation of the people of Kosovo in free and fair elections;

Determining that, within the limits defined by UNSCR 1244(1999), responsibilities will be transferred to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government which shall work constructively towards ensuring conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo, with a view to facilitating the determination of Kosovo's future status through a process at an appropriate future stage which shall, in accordance with UNSCR 1244(1999), take full account of all relevant factors including the will of the people;

Considering that gradual transfer of responsibilities to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government will, through parliamentary democracy, enhance democratic governance and respect for the rule of law in Kosovo;''
:So, let me see: ''further development of self-government in Kosovo'', ''shall be established'', ''Kosovo's future status'', ''future stage which shall'', ''Provisional Institutions of Self-Government will, through parliamentary democracy, enhance''. this is what i meant when saying 'do not rush'... --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 23:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::I never said that Kosovo was independent, to deserve the "dont rush" comment. I just provided you with the source that defines what Kosovo really '''is'''. The formal recognition of Kosovo's independence is yet to come, that I also said in my personal page. I still do not see where is the part that I said wrong above, that you are criticizing. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Liar! You erased the Serbia and Montenegro part of the article. If you don't say that Kosovo is a part of something, then it must be independent. Clever you are, but not a Wikipedian for much too longer. Enjoy these few days... --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 23:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:I [[do not feed the trolls]] [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::But, you eat, don't you? What a paradox... --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 23:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Come on guys! do not push things further... just calm down! the truth is that Ilir pz did not say that Kosovo is independent, nor i am accusing him of saying something similar. i am just saying that this document shows the current administration and the the future projects about Kosovo. it does not say that it is not officially still part of Serbia. it says that it is '''administered''' by the UN. this is different... So, i am saying, once more, that i believe the current version is the most neutral one. i may be wrong, but, honestly, i do not have any single reason to push serbian or albanian POV:) --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 23:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::i added some clarification, Hectorian. Let me know what you think. I think I did [[agree to disagree]] already a lot, I expect the rest to follow the example. 00:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Kosovo is de jure a province of Serbia. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 00:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:::The clarification Ilir pz added seems fine to me. Bormalagurski, yes, Kosovo is de jure/at the moment/currently/officially/formally/at the present/according to the UN, EU/etc etc a province of Serbia. i cannot see why u have to repeat it all the time... --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 00:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

::::OK, pls all consider NPOV before editting or reverting. i am not saying that this is the best wording ever (i may be wrong, u know...) but i think that it is based in facts and reality. anything that may happen in the future can completely alter the opening paragraph. Wow, i am beginning to feel like Annan! (God no! we all have our POV on [[Annan Plan for Cyprus#Reasons for Greek-Cypriot rejection of the Annan Plan|different issues]], that's why i am talking as a "peacemaker" here:)...) --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 01:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:: :) the near future will change the opening paragraph for sure. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 01:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
: Someone removed the ''de jure'' and ''de facto'' terms to make the text more smooth. I agreed with him on that one, so I put them back but replaced them by ''in principle'' and ''in practice''. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 13:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

==Serb Crimes hard to be found==

The Kosovo page is highly slanted towards Serbs.There is no way this page is going to remain like this.
"Alleged execution of civilians in Recak"?
No talk about mosque destruction when 200 of them were raised to the ground
No mention of the notorious massacres ( other than Recak)
2,800 people of Serb origin are still missing? Baloney.
I will be busy in the next couple of weeks giving this page a sense of sanity. I haven't looked at it in while and sure enough it has been high jacked by the Serb propaganda machine. The whole thing is slanted![[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 03:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Come back with sources, Ferick. Of course you are welcome to edit here, and disregard inflammatory comments from people who attempt to stop you from doing that. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 08:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We all look forward to your continued defamation of this article Ferick. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 03:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:So you are going to vandalize the article? Bravo, bravo... --[[Image:Flag of Serbia (state).svg|20px]] [[User:Krytan|'''Krytan''']] [[User_talk:Krytan|'''talk''']] 01:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so now I have a RELIABLE source that catalogues the destruction of mosques and other cultural property in Kosovo. Of 500 mosques that were in use before the war, 200 of them were destroyed completely, vandalized or defecated by Serb forces.Another words made useless. [http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/kosovo/herscherriedlmayer.htm] Anybody disagree that this fact should be put on the article?

Serb Crimes in Kosovo (That should appear more visibly in the article):

Torture chambers found in the Serb Police Headcounters
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/371336.stm]
A VILLAGE DESTROYED: War Crimes in Kosovo
[http://hrw.org/reports/1999/kosovo3/]

Gornje Obrinje—Shelled to Death
[http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kosovo98/photo/gorobr.htm]

Alleged civilians killed in Recak?

BALKAN WITNESS: Articles on the Kosovo Conflict
[http://www.glypx.com/balkanwitness/racak.htm]

Recak report finds Serbs guilty: Forensics show 45 victims were unarmed civilians

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3839524,00.html]

How many Serbs are still missing in Kosovo? 2,800? How about 500?
3,000 missing in Kosovo
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/781310.stm]

Interestingly enough, none of these reports were compiled by Albanians …..HINT HINT HINT.[[User:216.209.33.60|216.209.33.60]]

::These sources were long needed to prove that many crimes in Kosovo were not "alleged" as some like to label them, but happened for real. No wonder, 10000 or more Albanians did not get struck by NATO, or thunder. These articles have to be incorporated here, and as well in the [[Kosovo war]] article. Thanks for bringing these sources here, Ferick. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose making two separate chapters: Albanian warcrimes and Serbian warcrimes - or something to that effect. That way both sides can provide all the selective 'evidence' they want in 'their' sections, without poisoning the entire article. How about that?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 22:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::Crimes are crimes, and took place in Kosovo. If the sources are reliable, all of them need to be put in one place. It is not what "sides" think that should be put here, but what independent sources have confirmed. If we put what "sides" think, we will get more than 20000 Serbs killed during the war, and that documentation might exist, as prepared during Milosevic era, for justifying his massacres. Thus I do not think we should separate them. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a start, but incorporating them in the main article would be better. I do not oppose your idea- I could live with it. I am not here to show selective information. All I want is for the article to show the facts as they are- nothing else. Reading the article as it is you would get an impression that Albanians were the main perpetrators of crimes in Kosovo, which is of course nonsense.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 00:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Rather than having separate sections for Serb and ethnic Albanian crimes, why not have a section on war crimes allegations with bullet points with brief details and links to other sources.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 00:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

We can have a section for alleged crimes (No Independent Source), but there also needs to be a section of proven crimes. If we just have alleged crimes, we are misleading the reader into thinking that there is been no proven crimes. We all know that that is not the case. We just need to agree on how to distinguish alleged crimes from proven ones.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 03:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with the latter. Many crimes were alleged, for reaching certain (stupid) goals. Instead, it is good to make a clear distinction of what was alleged and what was proven to have happened. In advance I propose to not use local sources. What do you think? they can be biased. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, sources by individual journalists and unreliable institutions should be treated with a grain of salt. There are always nut-head journalists who are so anti American that they will oppose anything the U.S. supports. I don't want sources banned just because of their origin, but dubious sources should require additional back up from reliable INSTITUTIONS.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 12:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Ferick: I think you are right, but I can see this becoming an issue of dispute. What would you say is a reliable source? Also, some may argue that the only crimes that are proven are those that have been successfully convicted by the International Tribunal.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 12:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I would guarantee you that no Serb or Albanian would agree that the only crimes that are proved are those that have been successfully convicted by the International Tribunal. What is a reliable source? Any institution that has been in a business for years with a proven record of reliability and fairness (CNN,BBC,TIME,NEW YORK TIMES etc).I know it's vague, but we have to take sources as they come and examine them.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 13:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a couple of comments and proposals:

(1) Change the focus from "war crimes" to "civilian casualties" or something else, as the former has become more of legal term, risking confusion. Also focusing on the effects on the civilian population would give a more holistic view, rather than just listing individual incidents/war crimes.

(2) Don't use ICTY indictments/convictions as a yardstick:

(a) Focusing on ICTY convictions risks only bringing up those incidents where the perpetrator has been identified and enough evidence is available to convict him/her. This would exclude all of the incidents where there clearly are victims, but no perpetrator has been identified or enough evidence is available for a indictment/conviction.

(b) As the ICTY doesn't have its own investigative resources it depends on evidence gathered by and provided by other parties, usually the parties involved in the conflict in one way or another. Thus, ICTY indictments/convictions are more an indicator of where information has been made available to it rather than of which war crimes have been committed.

(3) Let's take a top-down approach. (a) Start with how many civilian casualties (fatalities) there were and then categorize them as to if they were (i) in Serbia or in (ii) Kosovo. For the ones in Kosovo, categorize them between Albanians, Serbs and others as well as if they were before, during or after the Nato part of the war. (b) Add a paragraph on demolished buildings and property in general and cultural buildings in particular. (c) Add something on refugees, both during and after the war (were there any significant numbers before?) and returns. (d) Finally, some words about the ICTY and other legal indictments and convictions would be interesting (they would not in themselves show the whole picture, however).

If you accept (roughly) the above, I propose that we divide each of the sections between us and then post them here in a couple of days to discuss. How about this?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

== Conflicts between UN Resolution 1244 and S and M's Constitutional Charter ==

I know that there is a dispute over the issue of Kosovo's sovereignty - whether it is a province of Serbia or of the union of Serbia and Montenegro. Looking at UN Resolution 1244, Kosovo is not defined as an autonomous area of Serbia but of the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro).[http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement] It also recognises the territorial integrity of FRY.

Paragraph 10 "Authorizes the Secretary-General [...] to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic selfgoverning institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo."

To me, the issue is fairly clear-cut as far as international law is concerned: under Resolution 1244, Kosovo is an autonomous region of Serbia and Montenegro. There is no mention of rule from the Serbian authorities, which are distinct from the union of Serbia and Montenegro.

''But'' the issue is complex as the country as a whole has changed its constitution since Resolution 1244 was passed. Serbia and Montenegro is a union of two republics and under the old FRY before the 1999 war it was legally a province of Kosovo. I do not think that the Republic of Serbia has changed its position with regards to the sovereignty of Kosovo. So, under the law of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo is technically still a part of Serbia. The Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro is quite clear about this. It refers to "the state of Serbia which includes the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija." [http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Facts/const_scg.pdf]

No-one can actually state Kosovo's legal position until the issue of its constitutional arrangement is finally settled. There is considerably ambiguity as to Kosovo's sovereignty and in a sense both [[User:Bormalagurski|Bormalagurski]] and [[User:Ilir_pz|Ilir_pz]] are right.

As a neutral observer, I think the conflict between the law of Serbia and Montenegro and international law with regards to Kosovo's sovereignty should be highlighted in this article.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 09:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

When local law contradicts international law, more often then not, International law takes precedence. No?[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 18:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree Ferick.Local laws are disregarded in this case, hence the constitution law of SCG is less powerful than the international law. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is a controversial topic at all. How can it be, when any map of Europe will show you Kosovo as an province of Serbia. And we all know that it is run by the UN and that negotiations are ongoing about some form of independence. Take a look at the map of Europe published in Wikipedia as an example (but any reputable political map of Europe will tell you the same thing). What's so controversial about this?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 22:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::You tend to ignore internationally ratified documents ruling in Kosovo, and instead refer to some maps, Osli73. Not sure this is how a politician like you should evaluate the real situation. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:The controversy is whether Kosovo is a part of the union of Serbia and Montenegro or the Republic of Serbia. There is a difference between the two. The UN Resolution refers to Kosovo as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but this has now been replaced by the Union of Serbia and Montenegro which has declared in its constitution that Kosovo is an autonomous part of Serbia. The issue would provide rich pickings for lawyers, but I don't think anyone here is qualified to make a judgement. We can only provide some understanding of the controversies and contradictions and leave it to the reader's judgement.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 23:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::I think the statement by Ferick above made it clear, that international laws here make more sense than the other local law. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is whether Serbia and Montenegro (Which by the way is now a defunct state) can enact laws which are in direct contradiction with International Law. The answer is no. Serbia is no position to defy International Law. They can pass all the laws they want, but that is not going to change the situation on the ground (Taiwan).
We all know that Kosovo was at one time physically a part of Yugoslavia. There is question about this legality, but that was the case. It’s also true that Serbia has no legal authority in Kosovo as of right now (Serb Laws do not apply in Kosovo). The future will be determined soon.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 00:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:Guys, as i have said before, i think that the issue is more easy to deal with it. Kosovo, an autonomous province of Former Yugoslavia became part of New Yugoslavia (later just Yugoslavia, and some years ago became Serbia and Montenegro). according to the UN, it is a de jure part of Serbia (even after the Montenegrin referendum and the divide of the federal state, Kosovo, '''de jure''', is part of Serbia). But, '''de facto''', is under UN control (with much EU influence). when the talks about its future will come to an end, we can add their outcome here (and move the current ballanced-i think-edits to the history section). but it is silly to say that it is not part of Serbia at present, although the UN recognises it as such, it has not declared independance, nor any country has attempted to recognise it as separate country. thus, at the moment, the article is accurate enough, without taking sides (note that the first paragraph is the result of a sort of compromise between two users supporting different POVs). --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 00:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

What UN document are you referring to when you say: “according to the UN, [Kosovo] is a de jure part of Serbia”. I am not aware of any UN document that says Kosovo is part of Serbia. Enlighten us please!

The best way to describe Kosovo’s status right now is: No Status (Limbo). Kosovo is neither independent, nor under legal control of Serbia or Yugoslavia or Serbia Montenegro or UN (UN Administration in most cases does not make decisions without consulting Kosovo Government) or whatever country you want to mention. [[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 03:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Thats it. And you dont need to say nothingg more. But here is nt the problem thate the serbian users dont know thate but they are usen this page for conflicts. They can not live without problems, they need somthing to be spocet about they, they must put they fingers every wher. I can understen they beacose they bio-gens are so --[[User:172.208.219.77|172.208.219.77]] 00:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
::No UN approved document mentions Kosovo to be a part of Serbia Hectorian. Take a look at the 1244 resolution, or any law ratified in Kosovo by the [[UNMIK]]. It is not good to speculate, based on some laws passed by a country that has no moral, and no factual right over Kosovo. Those laws in this case are useless and ignored fully. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[http://secap480.un.org/search?q=%22Serbian+province%22&btnG=Search+the+UN&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&ie=utf8&imgGO.y=0&client=UN_Website_English&num=10&imgGO.x=0&oe=utf8&proxystylesheet=UN_Website_English&site=un_org That is factually incorrect]. Even the ICTY uses the term in indictment texts [http://www.un.org/icty/alb/limaj/documents/other/lim-ptb040531e.htm]. I like [[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]]'s common sense approach, but unfortunately you will find common sense does not abound around here. This is my last contribution to this debate. I hope things improve in a years time. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 12:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about legal documents ( Passed by the General Assembly or UNSC) not press releases. So you are factually incorrect.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 13:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Maps and press releases are not equally important as UNSC decisions, Asterion. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:The UN Resolution 1244 says that Kosovo is part of FRY. It makes no mention of whether it is part of Serbia proper or a member of the federation - now a political union. The Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro states that Kosovo is part of Serbia.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 12:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks, Asterion. i will not take part in this debate anymore either... UN maps and documents, plus all countries all over the world, say that it is a de jure part of Serbia. i find it useless to try to convince users to accept reality... if they want to stick on specific words, denying the whole meaning of a document, it's fine by me... i won't take part in edit-rv-wars (i think i can be more useful in other articles). In a year's time, i hope, the dispute over this fact will be over. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 12:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:Its fine you guys don’t want to take part in the debate. We are looking at the situation from two different Paradigms-diametrically opposing views. Normally, people can find common points of agreement but I guess you don’t think that is possible. The problem here is that even if Kosovo were to become independent tomorrow you would still point out that Serbia has not accepted this Independence and therefore Independence is not valid. Am I wrong here?
There is more here that just a disagreement about the current status of Kosovo. You think Kosovo shall never become Independence, which is a political view, and there are other people (majority) who beg to differ. That’s the underlying disagreement. I suspect the disagreement will go on even after Kosovo’s status is resolved because of what I said above.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 13:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::Stop pushing POV and altering my words (and Asterion's as well)! and stop supposing what i may say if/when Kosovo becomes independent and how i may feel 'bout the serbs or albanians (there are users who know). lastly, i will come back in this debate '''only''' when the users will be ready to accept facts and reality. end of discussion (at the moment) for me. --[[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::POV pushing is ignoring what the UNSC states, and instead referring to some maps, or press releases, or constitutions of a country that literally organized the genocide in Kosovo. Call your reason, and consider when you cite sources. Thank you, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I think there is an obvious confusion in the legal status of Kosovo due to the contradiction between the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro and Resolution 1244. I think we can only point this out in the article, quoting each document. I don't think maps and press releases define what is sovereignty "de jure", although I think we are all agreed that neither Serbia nor the union of Serbia and Montenegro have any real power over Kosovo. It is also not our place to decide on whether Kosovo should be independent or not and anyone who thinks that this article should pass judgement is missing the point about Wikipedia and its commitment to NPOV.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 19:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::That is exactly what I am against, Ahwaz. Some people here attempt to find sources that only back their wishes (i.e. wanted status of Kosovo), and it is wrong. The fact is Kosovo has no legal status, hence, not a part of any country. Period. If we quote constitutions, then Kosovo's (more than 90%) of the population declared it independent in early 90's. Then we need to respect that constitution which was approved by the significant majority of the territory we are talking about. Then there is another confusion added to the whole mess. Instead, keep to the point, Kosovo's status is yet unresolved, that is why negotiations are taking place. It is quite clear for me, don't know why people here get confused so much. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

== Serbia and Montenegro ==

Serbia and Montenegro still exists even after the Montenegrin referendum. Montenegro has passed no law of secession, the union has not been formally dissolved, Montenegro is not recognised as an independent state by the UN and is not a member of the UN. Some editors started deleting Serbia and Montenegro from this article even before the referendum results were declared. It won't be some months before Montenegro is an independent state and until then, Serbia and Montenegro is the correct term to use.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 12:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::The reason they delete SCG and instead leave Serbia is because it somehow satisfies their inner feeling. No matter how strange that may seem for you. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

:::My friend at first. After the serbian masaker (I mean with humen definicion of term "masaker" not with the propagada definition) in Kosovo, with masaker in Adem Jashari family, Serbia hase lost Kosovo, "de facto" and "de juro". Now, the serbians can start screaming and crying for they church, and they political "masakers", for they "enklaves" but thet is going nothing to chanche, Kosovo ist "de facto" and "de juro" out of Serbia. The nature (biologie gene) of this folk is this. They have started with military agains the armed familys wich have no eperienc with military. (Sllovenia, Kroacia, Bosnja, Kosovo). After they lose (eache family belongs to one folk they have forgetit thate), they stardet screaming and crying. The albanian nature is somthing als, we know who hase don what and thate all what we need. The father and mther Russia is death and the serbs diden understande thate till now. This is a problem. For your "Serbia and Montenegro" the paper in witch is wroting that they are a state you can take and user for WC.--[[User:172.178.93.99|172.178.93.99]] 20:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

::::To the non IP, I can say that I was brought up a Muslim and I have no sympathy for the Serbian Orthodox Church. But if you are talking of the law, the status of Kosovo is not certain. Kosovo is not an independent state. The UN recognises it as part of Serbia and Montenegro and the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro recognises it as part of Serbia. Whether you like it or not, Kosovo is de jure part of the Union until it's final status is resolved. This is not about being pro- or anti- Albanian or Serbia, it is simply about the facts. Personally, I have nothing against Serbs and Montenegrins and have met Dragiša Burzan, the ambassador to London and former deputy prime minister of Montenegro, on two occasions. I think the issue is complex and should not be determined by the political preferences of certain editors, either pro-Serbian or pro-Albanian.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 00:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
----
The problem is that the Sebian govermant hase taket a ofenisve too explen the world, thate ther was not only the serbian masaker. But, the problem in Kosovo is thate there was no masaker too the civilian serban peopel. The Albanians dident have "special" organisedet units for clearing the area with masaker. And now, the serbian user s are trainig to make "political masaker" from the frustration of the albanian peopel agains the kiling of three albanian chldern in Mitrovica. The albanias in Kosovo diden forgetit the time in witch the Serbs after they came bake from the church they kame mit Kalishnikov duing the year 1992-1999, they diden forget thate time and they dont wont to forget all the serbians masakers in Kosovo. And at last Kosovo since the folk of Kosovo has cleare disedet to be indenpendent Kodovo is out of Serbia, and now is the time in too be acceptet from the serbian folk but they are sleepen and thinkin that it was only a dream. No, no it was not a dream it was drog and raki and now you fiel seek. '''Dont Dring and Make War'''. --[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 11:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Half of the serbian Church it was build during the Millosheviq time, and they was build to be used als Bunker.--[[User:Hipi Zhdripi|Hipi Zhdripi]] 11:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hipi, the 127 monasteries that albanian kosovars ruined were built more than 5 centuries ago. To some foreigner it might sound strange that there are so many monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija. But, more than 90% of the monasteries had been there for centuries. The root of the word Metohija is a holy land, the one that belongs to church. This whole region for serbs is like Jerusalem for the Israelis or Palestinians.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 18:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
You are showing everyone that you don't know anything about Kosovo. Five centuries ago Kosovo was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and there were very few churches build at that time.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 05:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, you are ridiculous. What about the monasteries that were built before the Ottomans? Serbs were there even before turks, you should at least know that fact before continuing any further discussion.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 08:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Paparlapap, I live here. 5 centuries? yes and the serbians from Hungary and als wher has take care to keep they during the Ottoman time and they diden succes to keep they church in Belgrade????? Till the 1912 in Belgrad it was more muslims monasters als serbians. Go and talk with somebody out of Earth. All the serbian Church in Kosovo it was build after the Ottomans started to lose controll over this area, please this is not a place to talle the children a good night storys.--[[User:172.208.219.77|172.208.219.77]] 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

PAPARLAPAP, whatevere it means Hipi. Please show me the facts when you say that the were more mosques in Belgrade than orthodox monasteries.
YOU ARE A VERY IMAGINATIVE PERSON HIPI. WHY LIE SO MUCH, WHY? I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE SERBS, BUT LYING IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU ANYWHERE.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 08:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::Very emotional description, Gianni_ita. I am not sure Israelis massacred the people of Jerusalem, and opened many mass graves filled with bodies of civillians, or even worse cremated them somewhere outside Jerusalem. Hint: Serbian regime did. As far as churches are concerned, some people say those Churches existed much earlier than 5 centuries ago, when the local people were Roman Catholic. '''The land is holy to those who make a living there, are born there, and the generations before them have also.''' Living in myths is wrong. With all respect to Serbian churches, do not make it sound as if Albanians do not care about them. The cultural heritage of all Kosovo is sacred, and (has to and) will be protected. Let me remind you that during the war several other cultural heritages in Kosovo were damaged, among them hundreds of equally old mosques, and building of League of Prizren, and many many public libraries. Measuring who did what during the war, and who did more or less harm to the other, is not smart. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I just want to add another thing. I wanted to say how i admire all the Albanians, and especially all the albanians from Kosovo. There has never been a single conflict between them, they all share the same views about serbs, serbia, kosovo...They always stick to their ideas and plans. They will always repeat their POV, even if it is not totally truthful, and try to explain it to foreigners. They want the story of how they suffered under the Serbs to be retold everywhere and all the time. They understood the importance of lobbying long before any other nations from the Balkan peninsula. I admire the albanian people for making plans about independence decades ago, when it seemed that independence is impossible, but they patiently waited for the right moment, and it came, with Milosevic, the person whose statue should be on the main square in Pristina, as he made everything possible (he can stand next to Tito, he was the first one who gave albanians a little hope for independence).
For all that, i envy my dear neighbors.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 18:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::I will have to correct your "admiration", Kosovar Albanians were slow in uniting as they did today, and several types of suffering and oppresions finally brought the (admirable by you) situation as it is now. Ironically. And their unification is not against Serbs or Serbia, but against any kind of imposed regime on Kosovo again. Let us have this clear here. One smart move that Ibrahim Rugova took I will always appreciate, he did not inspire any responce (militarily) to Milosevic's provocations to start some kind of uprisal in early 1990s, because we were going to be the '''lesson''' for all the rest of republics within ex-Yug that wanted to secceede. Luckily, that did not work, or today we would have a majority of Serbs in Kosovo, and mass graves filled with (more than 10) thousands of bodies of Albanians, and Albanian refugees would be already used to living outside Kosovo (in Albania and all around the world) and [[Operation Horseshoe]] would be completed much earlier. Milosevic did plenty to deserve to be mentioned in the black history of Kosovo, and one that destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (not only in Kosovo) and (hopefully not for a long time) spoiled the coexistence of Serbs and other non-Serbs he terrorized. It would be a shame even if anyone erects a statue of his even in Serbia. Your irony can be felt, but you should know some more facts before you use it. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

oh and another thing, the reason most of us Albanian Wikipedians trying to explain issues to international readers here is to show them a side of the story, which has been covered up by an excellent (I must say, ironically) propaganda orchestrated in many years by several Serbian regimes, where Albanians are represented as wild, always causing wars, illiterate, ugly looking, (once horribly even heard that Albanians allegedly had tails), making racial comments, the Muslims of the Europe (the tie with Al-Qaeda or whatever) i.e. threat to Christian Europe, and many many more things, which are ridiculous to mention. The world does not hate Serbs, they just understood the truth finally, and were slow at doing that, unfortunately, after many lives of innocents were lost. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 19:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::Kosovo is the drug-trading hot-spot, and so is Albania. Half of the population of Albania are still farmers, using tools that were used centuries ago. Albania has a large gray economy that may be as large as 50% of official GDP. Now, as far as wars are concerned, Albanians have, only in the last 15 years, started three, one in Kosovo, one in South Serbia (Presevo Valley), and one in Macedonia. All were wars of secession, wherever they go, they want to separate. This is not propaganda, this is fact, and anyone in the world can check it. Comparing to Serbia's percentage of 96% who can read and write, Albania's percentage of 86% sounds low. I have never heard, in my 16 years of living in Serbia, that Albanians have tails, I'm affraid you made that up. Furthermore, the Greater Albania concept still lives in Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece, while the "Greater Serbia" dream has faded away long ago. I think the world should stop focusing on something that no longer exists, and focus on solving the problem that the drug-dealing, weapons-smuggling, war-starting Albanians. Regards, --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 19:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I wouldn't say that the main impression given of the Kosovo conflict (other other ex-Yugoslav conflicts) in western media is very favorable to the Serbs. In fact, sympathetic media coverage played an important role in bringing NATO intervention on the side of the Albanians in 1999. The most widely distributed book on the history of Kosovo by Noel Malcom (Kosovo: A Short History) also paints a sympathetic picture of the Kosovar Albanians. For sure the Serbian government is trying to give its picture of the issues, but I wouldn't say that they are being very successful.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 09:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

==Some Serbs do not want you to read this==
In their attempt to spread anti Albanian hysteria, Serbs have forgotten their dirty laundry.

As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods.
Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing. This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!

Poverty still rife in Serbia[http://www.balkanupdate.com/2005/10/poverty-still-rife-in-serbia.html] “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role.
“We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty.
“We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”

Half of Serbia Illiterate[http://www.balkanupdate.com/2005/07/half-of-serbia-illiterate.html] “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “

I report, you decide.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 17:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't think these comments about Albanians are conducive to a discussion on how to produce a factual NPOV article. It would be helpful if editors desisted from shouting against Serbs and Albanians and got on with putting in factual content.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 11:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::These are mild comments in comparison what I am used to hearing, Ahwaz. You are just seeing the top of the iceberg here. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:See Giani_ita, this text above is exactly what I am talking about, the extent that the Serbian youth is mis-informed about Albanians in general. I do not care to explain further to people who are determined to push their propaganda. I only state the facts, by providing you with sources. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::See, dear Wikipedians, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the extent that the Albanian youth is mis-informed about it's own people in general. I have only stated facts, Ilir has done nothing to prove me wrong, but has claimed that I'm pushing my POV. He accuses me of pushing propaganda, yet he can't find a single source to prove me wrong. PROVE ME WRONG, ILIR, PROVE ME WRONG! --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 00:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::::You dont just copy the way I make my personal page, but even the way I write sentences. Cite at least :))))). Your disruptive behavior (has been and) will be dealt with by admins soon. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::You have lost Sllovenian war, Croatian war, Bosnien war, Kosovo war, thate was not inofe you have killed the democratie (Xhinxhiq) and you are acusen the albanias for great albania??? Please after you are clean from Raki comme bac.--[[User:172.208.219.77|172.208.219.77]] 00:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
{{cleanup}}

Serbiana you might have been a little bit harsh on Albanian people in general. Kosovo does have a high criminality rate, but the situation in Albania is a lot different, and i don't think that 50% of the Albanian GDP is made through drug and people trafficking, although the percentage is pretty high compared to some other Balkan countries.

Ilir, you know exactly the things that when told to a foreigner make Serbians sound like bad guys and albanian kosovars as good guys.
You start by saying how the world until recent years was aware of only one side of the truth, the serbian POV. First of all that's completely incorrect. No one wants and no one ever wanted to listen to Serbs and their story. The reason for that is because the Serbs since the WWI have had the lousiest polititians in the world. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs massacred by Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Albanians were simply forgotten in order to preserve the brotherhood between the nations. The world never heard about serbian victims. Serbs are the only nation from the Balkan peninsula that until recently didn't have any lobbyists in the US.

Then you make Kosovar war look like a religious war, which again doesn't have any sence. You know that even if the Albanians were jews, or catholics or even christian orthodox, the war would have taken place.
You talk constantly and in detail how people were massacred, and that is the easiest and the most efficient way to get support from some foreigner. you think that i don't have stories to retell?

[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 09:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::All the Balkans has a high criminality rate. I hear more cases of different mafia bosses being arrested and chased in Serbia than in any country around, but for some reason only Albanians have a high criminality rate. Gianni_ita, it is not in my interest to make serbs look as bad guys. Having good neighbours is better than bad ones, that you dont have to be smart to know. But unfortunately one should clarify the truth, when having neighbours who were blinded by propaganda, for decades, into thinking only bad about among their oldest neighbours-Albanians. You say that the reason the world does not want to listen to Serbs is because you had the lousiest politicians. I am not sure who elects them, God or the people. I think the latter. So it should have been them who should have done something, not instead follow them to wage wars. I think the world got the picture about all the victims in this bloody region. I did not say Kosovar war was a religious one, though Serbian regime wanted to give it such a character: it destroyed many old mosques (also cultural heritage of Kosovo, just like churches), spread rumours about Al-Qaeda being in Kosovo, etc. I am not interested to describe the massacres either, they disturb me more than they disturb a foreigner, because I had relatives who were victims of that. Massacres are just another reason, in a list of many, that Kosovo should be '''only''' independent, and have no relation with a regime which seems democratic from outside, but uses the same language against Albanians as Milosevic did...exclude the military and police brutality, it is exactly the same. I do justify them though, having that many radicals in the parliament, they have to act the way they are. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, when 2 mosques in serbia were ruined, because more than 50 orthodox serbian churches were previously (in kosovo), the BBC, CNN, said that violence escalated on both sides (I'm refering to march 2003). It is true that when we talk about victims or ruined houses, monasteries, we can't subtract the numbers from each other and find whose guilt it is, but in this case the difference between the numbers is just enormous.
About criminality rate, if you don't want to accept that Kosovo and Albania have the highest rates of criminality in Europe, OK.
About Al-Qaeda- I have no idea if al-qaeda was in Kosovo, it wouldn't surprise me, it had been proven that even now they have training camps in muslim part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that you accept that fact.
About serbian polititians- people choose only the president. All the others that you get with him can be a lot different. In the past, they didn't choose a king, nor did the choose Tito. The only wrong one the people of serbia elected was Slobodan Milosevic (after that he bought the next elections). So, don't blame Serbian people.
About independence. that's a long story, and i don't have time now. I can only say that full independence (as in change of borders of Serbia) should not be accepted.
talk to you later ilir.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 18:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The Serbian Church was destroid not beacose they was the religion house, but beacose this Churchi wasen t religons House. This Churches was used from Belgrade to give arms and mobilised the serbians civilist in Kosovo and start again War. Do you think thate NATO can not stop the albanian protest? The NATO problem it was thate every day Belgrade send to this Church military peopel. And they diden wountit to be involt in this case and let the albanias extremist to do thate. '''Gianni ita''' naice name, you are thinkin thate is the time in witch Serbians was supported from Rusia, this is your problem and this was the serbian problem during the last 20 years. They was thinking thate Rusia is going to support the serbs with every think, they was thinking thate if NATO is going to start the War, Rusia is going to be involt in War (they wounted to start the WWIII), but they send only some oficiers and solders and nothing more. Please dont forget in year 1912 Serbia was the smallerst pashalluk from all Balkans folks, they haved nothing, nothing they was liven in perifery of the citys and was mixed with gypsy/roma. They wasen nothink only the Rusian propagander hase made this name Serbia to somthing. And during 80 years unter this name in Balkan was maked the most masakers in the civilian peopel, more thane each time in the History of Balkan. The "serbs" in Croatia was t serbs but only there Church was Orthodox and the Church in Belgrade hase declaredet every Orthodox in west Balkan to Serbs from this propagander one Church one nation, only the Motenegriens hase survieved with many losed years. And now they wount to talle somthing about the Albanians. Oh my friend in this world somebody is born to destroid and somebody to create. The serbs hase destroid the olders Churchs in Dardania area from Byzant and Roman E. They have burn the Albanian identity in the Dardania, the last argument in witch way they have don it was in border Kosovo to Albania and border to Macedonia in last war. See the Sebian Akademy Memorandum. No one Academy in Balkan has souch plans. But the Futer is going to better and souch thinks are going to be netralizedet before they comme in life. -- '''Hipi - from UNI'''

==Replacement of factual statistics with phony numbers==

A certain Serb user named Bormalagurski continues to replace factual statistics (with reliable sources) about the missing people in Kosovo with his phony numbers and no source. Usually people revert when they dispute something, but this guy doesn't have a leg to stand on, and doesn't even claim to have information that proves his claims-He just reverts. I am not surprised that someone like him would do something like this, but one needs to ask a question: what kinds of value people like him bring to Wikipedia? I don't see anything positive.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 03:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

== REQUEST ==

HIPI ZHDRIPI SHOULD BE REMOVED OR BANNED FROM WIKIPEDIA FOR INSULTING ME THROUGH INSULTING MY RELIGION. I DIDN'T INSULT YOUR RELIGION, AND I NEVER WILL INSULT ANYONE WITH DIFFERENT BELIEFS.
LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON THE BASIS OF FACTS WE HAVE. HIPI, DISCUSSING WITH YOU IS IMPOSSIBLE.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 08:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

== FERICK THE SERB HATER ==

HI FERICK!
I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THE WEB SITE YOU RECOMENDED ME MADE ME LAUGH FOR SO LONG.
YOU ARE SOME KIND OF A FUNNY GUY? SERBIA WITH 50 % OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE??
THAT'S A BIG LIE MY FRIEND.
THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL PERCENTAGES- SERBIA (WITHOUT KOSOVO) 2002.- AROUND 5 % OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE.
SERBIA (WITH KOSOVO) 1991. - AROUND 8% OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE.

STOP ALBANIAN PROPAGANDA!
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 09:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the information is from the Serbian Education Ministry. And you know what's funny: the statistics you are mentioning don't necessarily contradict my information because Serbia uses different standards for measuring literacy. In Serbia you are considered literate if can only read and write- so you don't have to have finished the Primary Schooling. The information I am providing, which comes from the Serbian Education Ministry, says that half of Serbia have not finished the primary education ( 8 years of schooling).Don't try to put sand on people's eye's by confusing two different statistics. Chill out, don’t be a hater:) [[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 12:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Gianni can you please use small caps? Reading this it seems as if you are screaming. I am not sure the source Ferick gave is a lie, if you check the last 3 letters in that article it says "B92" so go and tell them they are lying. If someone does not agree with you, it does not mean you can call them "Serbian haters"...for some reason almost all Serbian editors feel they are hated when someone does not think like them. Weird. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

ILIR, I LIKE CAPS. AND I USE THEM ONLY TO RESPONd TO BIG LIES AGAINST ME AND MY NATION.
B92 HAS NEVER HEARD ABOUT THE ARTICLE YOU ARE MENTIONING. THEY DIDN'T SIGN IT.
CHECK OUT THIS UNESCO SITE, AND YOU'LL FIND THAT BOTH SERBIA AND ALBANIA HAVE LITERACY RATES ABOVE 90%.
www.uis.unesco.org/en/stats/statistics/literacy2000

[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 09:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Busted. Here is the link to b92 original article in english[http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0lOhcsZrdtMJ:www.b92.net/english/news/index.php%3Fnav_category%3D%26nav_id%3D32559%26order%3Dpriority%26style%3Dtexts%26news_per_page_limit%3D10++Half+of+Serbia+Illiterate+%2B+B92&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2]
Another Serb lie busted. What do you have to say for yourself?[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 12:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::Now you are using CAPS for me as well? what did I lie in my message above? I did not say that the b92 article was correct or a lie. I was myself surprised. [http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/pregled_stampe.php?yyyy=2005&mm=11&dd=13&nav_id=180305 Here] is an article about that in B92. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

And another thing Gianni_ita, I am sure that Ferick would instead like to see Serbs be more literate than the statistics show/speculate, because from more illiterate Serbs more little Seseljs can grow, and that is not in Albanian's interest either, as that way we would not be able to keep neighbour-to-neighbour relationships even. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

what a funny bunch of guys we have here. Ilir, Seselj's IQ is around 170, and although i do not support him, i can't say he is uneducated (he was honoured by tito as one of the youngest people who had a phd diploma). Otherwise, I appreciate that you care about the border between Serbia and Albania.
About iliteracy, well UNESCO site that i gave you says enough. Both albania and serbia have more than 90% of literate people. I wrote to b92 about the text you say they wrote, so we'll see the result.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 16:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::What do you mean by "Otherwise, I appreciate that you care about the border between Serbia and Albania."? Gianni_ita? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

What you mean you wrote to B92? For What? I already provided the link to their website[http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0lOhcsZrdtMJ:www.b92.net/english/news/index.php%3Fnav_category%3D%26nav_id%3D32559%26order%3Dpriority%26style%3Dtexts%26news_per_page_limit%3D10++Half+of+Serbia+Illiterate+%2B+B92&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2]
You don't seem to get it: In Serbia you are considered literate if you can read or write by the age of 15. It's not a requirement that must have gone to school any number of years. The B92 article says the following: 50% of people in Serbia have not finished Elementary Education.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 16:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this part should be named: Ferick the Myth Buster. Anybody disagree? [[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 16:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

FERICK, MY DEAR ALBANIAN FRIEND.
THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WITH FINISHED PRIMARY SCHOOLING IN SERBIA IS 97%.
SOURCE: United nations homepage

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/mi/mi_results.asp?crID=891&fID=r15

STOP ALBANIAN PROPAGANDA.

Fair enough. But here is your problem: The Stats you are talking about talk about percentage of students who finish the fifth grade, not the 8th grade. The information provided by the Serb Education minister talks about the overall Serb population who have primary education( 8th grade education). So the statistics that appear in B92,that is 50% of the population of Serbia does not have primary education( Don't confuse primary with elementary education), is not challenged by your source. So, you efforts to prove me wrong haven't gone unnoticed, but you have not been able to provide any source that contradicts what I have been saying. And besides, the UN gets its information from the member countries-that is to say to Serbian Education Ministry in this case. So there should not be any contradiction between them.

This is not Albanian Propaganda. All I am trying to do is limit Serb falsehoods. That's all.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 20:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

OK Ferick. It seems that we got lost when it came to terms (literacy, primary education, elementary education...). I can just tell you one more time that both Serbs and Albanians (from Albania) are very well educated people, and that the percentage of people that enroll and finish university from these countries is bigger than in Switzerland and some other Western European countries.
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 07:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::Care to explain why you say "Serbs and Albanians (from Albania) are very well educated people," in the discussion page about Kosovo? Or you added that "from Albania" accidentally? :)) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

That’s probably true, but it is also true that a lot of people in Albanian and Serbia have bare minimum education. I am not familiar with rates of University Education in that part of the world, but I can tell you that in the U.S 25% of the population had a university degree. I suspect this rate is a lower in the Balkans as well as Europe.[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

== Status of Kosovo ==

I've come to realize that some people don't believe that Kosovo lies within the internationally recognized borders of Serbia (which any political map of Europe will tell you, including the one on here on Wikipedia [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_countries_map_en.png]], likewise if you look at the CIA map of Europe [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/europe.html] or those published by the EU [http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm]). As such, it is a province of Serbia. However, it is run by the UN and administered by UNMIK.

So, in light of these facts, why can't we settle on the NPOV introductory statement that "Kosovo is a province of Serbia administered by the United Nations"? I realize a lot of Kosovar Albanians want nothing to do with Serbia (which I can fully sympathize with) and therefore don't like being called a province of Serbia. However, this doesn't change the fact that is legally still is.

Please excuse me but I can't help making an analogy. The issue above is a bit like a married couple who have separated after the husband beat the wife. Just because the wife hates the husband and wants nothing to do with him doesn't change the fact that, from the point of view of the law, they are still married until the divorce is final.

So, let's stick to the facts and not what we would like the the facts to be.

PS. Simply stating that Kosovo is a province in the Central Balkans would be about as misleading to the readers as stating that Catalunia is a province in southwestern Europe or that Scotland is a province in northwestern Europe. The wording of Res. 1244 is more about politics and what was acceptable to all parties at the time (ie getting Serb troops out for NATO and keeping Kosovo as a part of Yugoslavia for Serbia).[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Just for good measure I would like to add the EU Commission map of Serbia and Montenegro as found on EU Commission web site: [http://ec.europa.eu/comm/enlargement/serbia_montenegro/serbia_montenegro_index.htm]. It's quite clear about Kosovo being a province of Serbia but under UN administration according to UNSCR 1244.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 12:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::As Resolution 1244 is the document which regulates this, please search within it, and find your claim. I just want it to be according to that article. Kosovar Albanians do not want even what that resolution says about the "de-jure" part, but that is a different matter. The res.1244 does NOT mention what you are suggesting. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying that the UNSCR 1244 regulates how Kosovo is to be administred, not it's international status. My references above clearly show this (it would be interesting to hear your comment on these source, by the way). UNSCR 1244, however, does not say anything about Kosovo not being a province of Serbia, in fact, it says that it is a province of Yugoslavia.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 12:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:Hehe, the analogy is a funny one. You just forgot to compare it in a rather different way, the wife's body parts were cut, not just beaten up, the relatives of the wife (innocent civillians in Kosovo) were massacred, etc. Furthermore, that marriage was made by force by the "father" (Large Powers). And some neighbour, or an individual (read: readers like you) still insist that the woman is supposed to be that husband's wife, and every document should say so, even if temporarily. Being Swedish, you should be familiar about the laws on protection of women, and in this case that husband would deliberately be sent to prison, to linger there for a long time, let alone stop that marriage. I like analogies, actually :))) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought you would (like the analogy). Of course you can spice it up with additional details, as people tend to do during ugly divorces. However, that doesn't change the fact that the couple are still married (which is why they're getting the divorce, so to say). Saying otherwise isn't really being truthful. Right? Just because the wife has a temporary restraining order on the husband (UNSCR 1244, if you will) doesn't mean she's not still married to him.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 12:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::1244 resolution is the temporary guard, which more or less cohabitates with the wife, until she is cleared out formally (independence recognized by intl community) from an imposed marriage. The air strikes are the analogy to the democratic (say Swedish) state taking over that marriage and getting the husband out of the house :). [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I lost you on your last stretching of the analogy. However, since even you seem to agree that Kosovo isn't independent ("cleared out formally (independence recognized by intl community)") I'll add back the "province of Serbia under UN administration" bit.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 13:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::You misunderstood my statement, anyways. The independence recognized by intl community means changing the status-quo i.e. statusless status :). Besides, due to too much emotional edits in this article, the article has been protected. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If this is so, Ilir, please explain to me why all recently published maps of Europe, including those published by the EU Commission, CIA and Wikipedia, '''include''' Kosovo within Serbia's international borders?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 07:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

== Protected ==
Work things out please. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']][[User talk:Woohookitty|(meow)]] 12:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've tried, but things don't look that promising. Yes, the future status of Kosovo is a controversial and heated topic. However, the current status of Kosovo shouldn't be. All of the sources I site above (including the maps of Europe both on Wikipedia and other, incl. CIA) indicate it as a province of Serbia administered by the UN. I don't see how you can compromise about this. It would be like compromising about the intl. status of Cataunia or Scotland (in my example above). Just because nationalists, of any color or shade, don't accept it doesn't mean it's not so.

I suggest bringing in an acceptable outside arbiter. Do we have any constitutional judget on hand? [[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 13:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::There is no current status of Kosovo, this is the point you are misunderstanding, Osli73. Hence, the status talks in Vienna. You do not have to be very smart to know this. And yes, 1244 resolution DOES NOT mention Serbia anywhere in the document. No reason to push further against the 1244 resolution. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There most certainly is a current status of Kosovo - a province of Serbia under UN administration. The talks are about changing the status of Kosovo. UNSCR 1244 only regulates how Kosovo is to be administered, not it's international status (Ergo, the old one is still formally valid).

How would you otherwise explain that any reputable world map (also those produced after 1999) show Kosovo as a part of Serbia? How come the EU, UN, CIA and just about anyone else you ask agrees that it is formally still a part of Serbia? You still haven't answered this question.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 14:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

So what are the maps are suppose to say? Leave that part of the world blank? Most maps are based on the pre 1999 status and that includes maps produced after 1999.
The other day I happen to go the immigration with a friend of mine, and they could not find Serbia and Montenegro on their system. They said “I have Yugoslavia here" but no Serbia and Montenegro. Does that mean Serbia and Montenegro don’t exist? Well, they did until a week ago. Don't act like you don't understand. How about if Kosovo remains at the current status for the next hindered years? Would Serbia still make the claim after 100 years that Kosovo is still part of Serbia? Loot at Taiwan- Most agree that the Island is legally a part of China, but does that really mean anything? Can you really say Taiwan is a part of China? I don’t think so.

And what’s with “the future status of Kosovo is controversial one”? It’s a lot less controversial then you would like us to believe. [[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 14:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, I don't think it should be controversial as it is so clear cut - Kosovo is a province of Serbia under UN administration. However, this statement of fact appears to be so controversial to some persons that they cannot accept it. Instead they claim that Kosovo is in fact just a province (of nothing) and that it is not within the internationally recognized borders of Serbia (which, by the way, today's Financial Times special on Kosovo was quite clear about).[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ferick or Ilir, please explain why all maps of Europe show Kosovo as a part of Serbia? Why do the maps of the EU Commission and the CIA show Kosovo as a province of Serbia, albeit under UNSCR 1244 administration? Please answer me.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I did, above....[[User:Ferick|Ferick]] 16:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::Seems like Ferick gave you the explanation. I just cannot understand why you are so pushy Osli73? Just respect the (not the best) 1244 Resolution, as of now, and don't waste your energy. Maps show old data, and are not often updated. It will take who knows how long to change maps when Montenegro becomes independent. Furthermore status-less territories, such as is Kosovo, cannot be represented in maps, therefore old maps are used for them. Do not act so surprised, you should know that. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 20:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As an outsider to the matter (I am Dutch and have no affiliation with any Balkan country) I think we should stick with the current version for the following reasons:

The article states: ''Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (now [[Serbia and Montenegro]])''

1. The UN resolution was adopted at the time of the Republic of Yugoslavia, so that is what should be (and is) stated.

2. Currently, there no longer is a Republic of Yugoslavia, but neither a Serbia alone, it is still Serbia-Montenegro, and also that is correctly named in the article. Once Montenegro is officially separated, the article should state Serbia instead of Serbia-Montenegro.

3. The maps that can be found are hardly evidence. For example this map: [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/yugoslav.pdf] shows both Kosovo and Montenegro as similar denoted areas in Serbia-Montenegro. Does that mean they have a similar status? In addition, at this website of the UN: [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm] Kosovo does have its own map, whereas Montenegro doesn't. One can therefore also easily conclude that the UN does consider Kosovo independent, since neither Serbia nor Montenegro does have its own map (but they do have a map together). [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
:I see two maps at that site, one under the "Country maps" (!) sub-menu of "General Maps", and one under "Peacekeeping Maps", but both indicate K. as part of S&M, and indeed as part of Serbia. The "tanks on the lawn" situation is rather different from the Taiwan case: here the governing authority allows Kosovo to in large part ''operate'' as if autonomous, but does not allow declrations of autonomy, independence, separatism, or whatever (and indeed itself asserts the contrary). The RoC government could, however, make whichever declarations it wishes (or perhaps, dares to). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Captain,

1. UNSCR 1244 is about how Kosovo should be administered. It doesn't say anything about it's international status (other than that it is still part of Yugoslavia). Therefore the status is, formally, unchanged since before 1999. Therefore it is still, formally, a province of Serbia, albeit run by the UN.

2. UNSCR 1244 recognizes Kosovo as part of Yugoslavia, which became Serbia, currently in a state union with Montenegro. Yugoslavia didn't turn into Serbia-Montenegro, it turned into Serbia and Montenegro which in turn formed a union.

3. No, maps are not 'evidence' but they generally aren't wrong either. Are the Wikipedia, EU Commission and CIA political maps of Europe wrong? Of course not. Kosovo is included within the recognized borders of Serbia because this is the what all government of Europe (except maybe Albania, I'm not sure) recognize.

In fact the cartographic section of the UN that you linked to does have a map of "Southern Serbia and Montenegro" [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/southyug.pdf] which includes "The Province of Kosovo" with international and republic boundaries marked out in the legend. It's a map from April 1999, but they've opted to keep it and call it Southern S and M, so thay would tell you something, wouldn't it.

The reason I'm getting all hot and bothered about this status of Kosovo issue is that it's such a blatant example of people using Wikipedia to push their political/nationalist views on what could, and should, be a reputable encyclopedia available for all.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 08:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:So forget about the maps, my only point was that you can use them to reason both ways. And I '''totally''' agree that Wikipedia should contain usefull, unbiased information. I just do not agree with the remark that Yugoslavia turned into Serbia. The article on the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] states that Yugoslavia was ''the name of the [[federation]] of the republics [[Serbia]] and [[Montenegro]], which existed between 1992 and 2003, when it was transformed into new country named [[Serbia and Montenegro]].'' Once Montenegro officially leaves the union, I would agree with you. Since Montenegro is still part of Serbia-Montenegro, Kosovo is a province of that country and not of Serbia, which is not an indepedent state at the moment. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 08:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:::cpt.Morgan, the resolution 1244 should be modified accordingly, and until then, you cannot just say "ok it was yugoslavia, now it is serbia" and interprete the resolution the way you want. ...argh I am getting tired of this [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::Seems like someone is not satisfied enough with the (already morally wrong) wording that Kosovo is de-jure a part of ex-Yug (read: the country that carried mass executions of Kosovo's people, and the apartheid before that, and is recently playing with the bodies of killed civillians in Serbia itself). This is getting as ridiculous as it gets. Only about one wording. My God. And then they blame me for NPOV pushing. Look at your contributions, first. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Some, hardly partisan, comments from media around the world on the current status of Kosovo:

The BBC [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3524092.stm Kosovo, a landlocked province within the union of Serbia and Montenegro, has been the backdrop to a centuries-old and often-strained relationship between its Serb and ethnic Albanian inhabitants]

Unmik online [http://www.unmikonline.org/news.htm#1004 The United Nations administrator of Kosovo today called on Serbia to reverse its calls to ethnic Serbs to boycott institutions in the Albanian-majority Serbian province which the world body has run ever since the North Atlantic Treaty Alliance (NATO) drove out Yugoslav troops in 1999 after grave rights abuses.][[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::Osli, of these two references, one names Kosovo to be a part of Serbia-Montenegro, the other as a part of Serbia. Since Serbia-Montenegro is (if you will) the follow-up of Yugoslavia, Kosovo would be part of that, until it dissolves in Serbia and Montenegro. From that point on, Serbia will (arguably) be the follow up of Yugoslavia. Rather than simply complaining about nationalist feelings, can you explain why you cannot accept the wording ''Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (now [[Serbia and Montenegro]])''. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 12:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I actually am very curious why Osli73 thinks there is something wrong with that wording? Besides that it is offensive to Albanians in Kosovo, for the rest it is according to 1244...and actually more than that, as neither Serbia and Montenegro are mentioned in the 1244 resolution, only Former FRY. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::::The fact that is offensive to some people is not an argument here, there are many articles on wikipedia that are offensive to certain people. The only thing that matters is which country can be considered the follow-up of the FRY. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 13:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

=== A suggestion based on US Congressional Research Service and US Council on Foreign Relations wording ===

Ilir, why do you feel that I'm pushing POV pushing? I'm not the one using words like "Apartheid", "massacres", "mass executions", "Kosova" etc in order to use Wikipedia as a way to push your own political opinions. I'm simply trying to state the fact that Kosovo is still internationally formally recognized as a province of Serbia and currently under UN administration. This can hardly be called a POV.

::the words you mentioned above are legitimate enough, and have been used by the international community sources that you quote as well. Do not accuse me falsely. Furthermore ''Kosova'' is the way more than 90% of the population in Kosovo call the plac, why should that be any political opinion? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

In order to break the deadlock and as gesture of good will I suggest the wording used by the US Council on Foreign Relations on Kosovo [http://www.cfr.org/publication/9936/] (the website is quite good overall). It says, under the heading "What is Kosovo's political status?":

"Since NATO forces occupied Kosovo in 1999, the province has been a protectorate of the United Nations, with broad administrative responsibility under a mission called UNMIK. Technically, Kosovo remains a province of Serbia."[http://www.cfr.org/publication/9936/]

A January 2006 US Congressional Research Service special report [http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/Kosovo_%20Future_Status.pdf] also states this saying (page 2):

"UNSC Resolution 1244 provides little insight into how the status issue should be resolved, saying only that it should be determined by an unspecified “political process.” However, the resolution explicitly confirms the territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (consisting of Serbia and neighboring Montenegro) and calls for “substantial autonomy” for Kosovo “within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.” The FRY was dissolved in February 2003, replaced with a looser “state union” entitled “Serbia and Montenegro.” Kosovars believe that the dissolution of the FRY invalidates this portion of UNSC Resolution 1244, '''while the international community views Kosovo as part of Serbia'''." (my emphasis added).

How about one of these two wordings?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Osli73, you are wasting time, with maps and press releases of different non-partisan organizations, or research services of congresses, and still refuse to quote the 1244 resolution. It is easier to quote the most powerful document on Kosovo, and spend your precious time on other research, which is needed here. Once again, Serbia is NOT mentioned in 1244 article, whatsoever. Why is it so hard for you (a Swedish neutral editor) to accept this fact? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I'm telling you that UNSCR 1244 explicitly confirms that Kosovo is part of Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro and that the intl. community views Kosovo as part of Serbia. Of course it's not possible to quite UNSCR 1244 since it doesn't say that Kosovo is not part of Serbia, it simply says that Kosovo's legal status is unchanged but that it will be administred by the UN.

The view of the EU Commission, the US Congress' research service, the US Council on Foreign Relations and the BBC that Kosovo is a province of Serbia clearly show that the international community does see it this way. If you don't, that's too bad but should't hinder the readers of Wikipedia from being presented with the truth (rathe than political grandstanding).[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 12:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:Osli, the BBC reference you gave named Kosovo as a province of Serbia-Montenegro, not of Serbia alone. So do many documents of the EU and many other news stories on the internet. As I see it, Kosovo is regarded a province of Serbia-Montenegro by some people, and a province of Serbia by others. Because currently Serbia-Montenegro is the official country and not Serbia, I do not understand why you so fiercely oppose the current wording: ''Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (now [[Serbia and Montenegro]])''. Can you please explain? [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 13:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Using your words, Osli "UNSCR 1244 [] simply says that Kosovo's legal status is unchanged but that it will be administred by the UN." That is what I have been saying all the time. Seems like we agree, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, good if we agree that UNSCR 1244 confirms the territorial integrity of FRY/SCG, where Kosovo is defined as a province of Serbia. When the union between Serbia and CG is terminated this will be very clear. Simply stating that Kosovo is a province of FRY, when FRY doesn't exist anymore, isn't very helpful to Wikipedia readers. It could give them the incorrect impression that Kosovo isn't a part of anything any more, which isn't true.

Better then to be as clear as possible, which is also what the BBC and other are being when they present Kosovo on their websites.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, I stated several times that the 1244 res is enough to state that de-jure part you are being so pushy about, but it does NOT say a word about Serbia, do not misinterprete my words. You tend to push for the latter, which neither did I, nor the 1244 Resolution mention. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 14:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

So, to make a new suggestion then, how about this:

"Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], which is now the union of [[Serbia and Montenegro]], but in practice it runs independently from the former."

It makes the statement on Serbia-Montenegro more clear, but leaves the UNSCR 1244 statement intact. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 14:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::Your suggestion is more balanced than Osli's. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm] quoting this source, your statement is further confirmed: ''While legally still part of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo remains '''an international protectorate of the United Nations''' as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (passed June 10, 1999). '''Under UNSCR 1244, UNMIK assumes the supreme legal authority in Kosovo''', while working to create "substantial autonomy and self-governance" in Kosovo and, eventually, facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status. '' Osli wanna push further than this I guess? Hope not. Anyways, we are arguing about something that is due to change drastically in Autumn of this year. Then some will regret over spending so much time over something like this. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 15:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo is a province of Serbia, which in turn is one of the two republics which make up the country [[Serbia and Montenegro]] (previously FRY). However, for the sake of ending this deadlock, I have two suggestions:

"Kosovo is a province within the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], which is now the union of [[Serbia and Montenegro]], currently administered by the United National under UNSCR 1244."

or

"While legally still part of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution 1244"

I can live with either of these.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:::"live with"? seems like it is of vital interest to you to waste so much time for this definition. Let me remind you, all this that you came to agree with ALREADY is in the text. Do you now believe me that you wasted precious time? The way it is specified in the text already explains the de-jure and the de-facto situation. That Kosovo is de-facto independent, you do not need to be very smart to see that. The de-jure part is also explained in the existing text in the main article. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What will happen when Serbia and CG go their separate ways and SCG no longer exists?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:Both are fine with me as well, but I prefer the first one for no specific reason. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 16:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking at it with fresher eyes, I feel it doesn't make sense to say that Kosovo is a part of FRY (a state which doesn't exist) and the to say that this is now called Serbia and CG. Better to say:

"Kosovo is a province in [[Serbia and Montenegro]], currently administered by the United National under UNSCR 1244."

Is this still OK with you, Cpt.?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 19:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of compromise, I would suggest the following. I think (hope) [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] can agree (this version puts the emphasis on the United nations rather than on Serba-Montenegro):

"'''Kosovo''' is a United Nations administered autonomous province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]] (and formerly of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]), as defined by the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] in 1999."

[[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 19:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Cpt., I would really prefer the version I suggested:

"Kosovo is a province in [[Serbia and Montenegro]], currently administered by the [[United Nations]] on the basis of Security Council Resolution 1244."

Can we all agree to this? [[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 20:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The whole point that [[User:Ilir pz|Ilir pz]] was making is that resolution 1244 does not talk about Serbia or Serbia-Montenegro, it talks about the FRY. Another try then:

"'''Kosovo''' is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]], which came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]])."

How about that? [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, FRY doesn't exist anymore, so Kosovo is therefore a province in [[Serbia and Montenegro]], its successor state. That's pretty simple. What's the use of referring to FRY, it is only likely to confuse readers of the article.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 22:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
:If stated properly, I hardly think people will be confused. I Honestly do not understand why that is such a big deal to you. You underestimate wikipedia readers :) [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, to begin with, I believe it should state what is generally accepted by all foreign governments - that Kosovo is a province of Serbia, currently under UN administration. Some (probably most) Kosovar Albanians prefer to say that Kosovo is a part of FRY (now SCG) since this implies that Serbia does not have anything legal claim on Kosovo. Just as the US Congressional Research Service special report I quoted above says, they feel that since FRY no longer exists, they are now technically in legal limbo. This is, however, not the view of the rest of the world. That's why I'm against saying Kosovo is a part of FRY or even a province of SCG (I can live with province "in" SCG).[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 22:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
:I know what your opinion is. I disagree since A LOT of articles and documents talk about Kosovo as a province of ''Serbia-Montenegro''. My last suggestion stated exactly that. With, in the second part of the sentence, a short description of the origin of Kosovo getting under UN control. What if we split it in two sentences:

"'''Kosovo''' is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]])."

I really don't see how you can object to that? It is totally historically accurate. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 22:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

How about "'''Kosovo''' is a province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]])." [[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 23:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

:Can you explain why you object to the use of the word autonomous? It is even stated exactly like that in the article on the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]? I think it is an important aspect of the current status of Kosovo. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 06:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:Check also this page, [[Vojvodina]], another autonomous province. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 06:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

:Kosovo is called an autonomious province in the following articles:[[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], [[Serbia]], [[Subdivisions of Serbia]], [[Template:Serbia and Montenegro]] and by many UN, EU and US documents. Example:[http://www.un.int/usa/00_208.htm]. Historically, it was autonomous until Slobodan Milosovic claimed Kosovo in 1991. It is again autonomous now and should be named as such. I do not at all understand why you object to that. Does it confuse wikipedia readers? No. Is it historically incorrect? No. Is an albanian nationalist statement? No. I am trying to find a consensus here, but just disagreeing without arguments makes that very difficult. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 08:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Cpt., I've checked the Constitution of the Republic of Serbia (the current one, not the proposed new one) and you are right. Article 6 [http://www.serbia-info.com/facts/constitution_1.html] reads: "The Republic of Serbia includes the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohia, these being the forms of territorial autonomy." I stand corrected. Please feel free to include the autonomous bit. I thought it had been revoked by Milosevic in 1991 and not reinstated since. However, from Article 6 it is also quite clear that Kosovo is an autonomous province of Serbia, not of Serbia and Montenegro. In fact, the Constitutional Charter of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro [http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Facts/const_scg.pdf] clearly states that Kosovo is a province of the State of Serbia (ie not of Montenegro or of Serbia and Montenegro). But since this seems to be out of the question for some users, so I will let it go. [[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 09:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::I hope you are joking on this part, Osli. Saying that Kosovo had any kind of autonomous character from 1991 is ridiculous. You are citing a wrong source. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I am confused now in regard to what both of you want or not:). Since I just want this block to end quickly, I'll give (some again) several options. If you guys can sort them according to which one you think is best, we will choose the one with which all of us have the least problems. Is that acceptable?

1.'''Kosovo''' is an province in southern [[Serbia]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

2.'''Kosovo''' is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

3.'''Kosovo''' is an province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

4.'''Kosovo''' is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

5.'''Kosovo''' is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia and Montenegro]], which came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

My favorite in this list is number 5 and the following ranking: 5 > 4 > 2 > 3 > 1
Both of you guys, let me know which ones are acceptable and which ones are not. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 11:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Reinoutr, and Osli73. What is wrong with the already existing definition "By the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro), but in practice it runs independently from the former." It both states the de-jure, and de-facto situation. I do not think we should have started this dispute at all. The intro that already exists in the article is sufficient, and descriptive enough. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:My main objection is that it sounds like a sentence from a legal document rather than from an encyclopedia. But I would urge both of you to show some willingness in ending this dispute please. We are talking here because Osli wanted the introduction changed (which is his good right and was also the wish of others before him), which ended in a reversion war because you (and others) did not agree. We will have to agree to a certain compromise now. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 11:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

::on the contrary, Reinoutr, the existing formulation states as the situation really is on the ground. I am not sure I can call this formulation as non-enciclopedia formulation. It has to do with some law, hence a law-like term should be used..we have to deal with a Resolution from UN here, we cannot just skip the definition. An encyclopedia also clarifies the situation according to laws, not just "common" knowledge. Don't you think so? Oh and the existing definition, is a looooooong long compromised solution between Wikipedians from both parties included in the dispute, as well as foreign readers...until Osli73 showed his interest in allegedly bringing neutrality here. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 17:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Cpt. Morgan, I'm happy with either one of your five proposals (though my favorites are 1 or 2, since they are more precise, however, "in" SCG isn't necessarily incorrect).

Ilir, no, I'm definately not implying that Kosovo had some kind of autonomy since 1991 (quite the opposite in fact). That's why I was surprised to see it defined as such in the Constitution of the Republic of Serbia (article 6). Maybe it's just a word they decided to use with no meaning (likely), in which case it might be misleading.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 19:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Osli. Dear Ilir, can you please inform us which one has your preference? It is really time to lift the editing block on the article. Once you have stated your preference, I will inform the editor who blocked the article and change the text to the version you choose (of the 5 options above), because both Osli and I agree to all 5 of them. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 20:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:Sorry I missed your statement above Ilir. My suggestion is to use one of the 5 options in the intro of the article and give a more thorough, judicial explanation later in the article (perhaps moving the heading ''politics'' to nr. 1 or 2 and explain it in detail right there?). In that way, the intro is kept concise and simple, but the article does explain the situation in more detail. I know that is not ''your'' preferred option, but I would like to remind you that reaching consensus between editors is a key part of Wikipedia, so everybody will have to give and take a little (see also [[Wikipedia:Consensus]]). The fact that a compromise was reached before must be taken into account, I agree, but it is not the only factor we have to deal with, especially since the wording chosen was far from ideal, as was also mentioned by [[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] at the time that the compromise was reached (which is only 5 days ago, so far from established). [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I thank you for your initiatives to reach compromise, cpt. Morgan. And no, I did not perceive your call for compromise as a threat. I just did not know what to compromise for. The already existing version is the one I could compromise with. And that compromise was achieved after I tried to back off readers from my country who would get irritated by even the current statement. I called them to refrain from that. Furthermore, I called the Serbian editors to refrain from using their extreme views as well, hence the "de-facto" part was added. Cpt.Morgan, neither of your 5 suggestions is correct, in several ways. 2-5 are incorrect as they use the term "autonomous" as defined by Serbian constitution, which is incorrect. That term ended in 1989, when Kosovo's autonomy was abolished by Milosevic. From 1999 Kosovo is a UN administered territory, still legally (according to 1244 resolution) a part of FRY (now SCG). Fine then, the fact is that Kosovo is a UN administered territory. Add that it is still legally a part of FRY(SCG) in the bottom part, in the "politics" header. That is more judice-related, than the factual - Kosovo being administered by UN. Oh, and proposal 1 is just a revert-war-inspiring proposal.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Cpt. and Ilir, I'm completely OK with taking out the "autonomous" bit. Saying that it's a province in "Serbia" rather than in "SCG" will increase the longevity of the wording (once SCG) break up. I think saying it is a province "in" rather than "of" Serbia should go some way to placating Kosovar Albanian editors. Another way to go could be to say that it's "'''technically''' a province '''of''' Serbia but came under UN administration in 1999..." if that is easier to accept. I still think the US Council on Foreign Relations wording is the best for an introduction and most easily understandable (UNSCR 1244 can be explained later):

"Since NATO forces occupied Kosovo in 1999, the province has been a protectorate of the United Nations, with broad administrative responsibility under a mission called UNMIK. Technically, Kosovo remains a province of Serbia."[http://www.cfr.org/publication/9936/]

[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 07:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Osli, you STILL insist on the part "of Serbia", and ignoring completely the 1244 Resolution which does NOT mention your words AT ALL. CFR is a non-partisan organization, and thus is not more important source than 1244 Resolution itself. Get real! :) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Osli and Ilir, I just heard on the news that Montenegro will declare its independence officially this saturday. How do you two suggest we incorporate that in this article? Apart from a more elaborate explanation in the ''politics'' section, on which I think we all agree now, I would propose either one of the following (several combinations of my previous suggestions and the sentence by Osli. I think it is not fair to start the article immediatly with the occupation of Kosovo by NATO):

1. '''Kosovo''' is a protectorate of the [[United Nations]] in southern [[Serbia]] since 1999, when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

or

2. '''Kosovo''' is a protectorate of the [[United Nations]] under a mission called UNMIK, since NATO forces occupied Kosovo in 1999. Technically, Kosovo remains a province in Serbia.

or

3. '''Kosovo''' is an province in southern [[Serbia ]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

Note that I use the wording ''in Serbia'' rather than ''of Serbia'', which is hopefully acceptable for all.
[[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 10:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Osli and Cpt. Morgan, until resolution 1244 is modified to reflect the changes, the following wording would better suit..always citing the documents released by UN and UNMIK respectively. Since (yet again) another fake federation is splitting up, the following definition would suit:
'''Kosovo''' is a UN administered territory, which by UN Resolution 1244 is technically considered a part of former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]].

Ilir, UNSCRs aren't revised. Also, there is no need, since Serbia will be the successor state of both FRY and SCG in UN terms (it will inherit the seat at the UN while CG will have to reapply). So, treaties/resolutions applying to FRY or SCG will be transferred to the Republic of Serbia, including SCR 1244.

I suspect that you probably hope that with the end of FRY/SCG, Kosovo isn't a part of any country anymore (or at least you want to imply this) and thus really doesn't have anything to do with Serbia anymore - ie that Kosovo is independent but just not yet recognized as such.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 10:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::You do not have any grounds to suspect my opinions, as I did not give you any. I keep referring to Resolution 1244, which is not my favourite anyways, but for the sake of keeping a NPOV and referring the the document with highest importance in Kosovo. UNSCR should be revised, and if not, they cannot be implied as such just by intuition, or non-partisan websites' claims. You should keep the version according to the respective UNSCR, until another one is released, or UN '''informs the public about who inherits what from that resolution'''. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"in Serbia, of Serbia, within Serbia," what is the difference? None. Sounds like POV pushing. Instead simply refer to the Resolution 1244, and change the text according to the way it is modified. Do not make up sources, and give out wishes here. No need to waste energy on that. This is not creative work, it is a fact based on some law (read: Resolution 1244, and not non-partisan websites)[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

'''Option 3 is the best''': it mentions Serbia (rather than the soon to be extinct SCG or already extinct FRY); it mentions the under UN administration bit (rather than protectorate, which I find to be more of a characterization of the administration); when it came under UN admin., and; the SC resolution on which it is based.

In, of and within Serbia make some difference in my ears. Of, implies "ruled by" while "in" merely implies geographic location. Both are technically correct. Ilir, you should support the latter option.

Also, wasn't there another UNSCR in 2002 regulating the status of Kosovo?
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 10:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::No, I do not support any version that is not according to UN 1244 Resolution. And those versions you support, and you think that I should support violate that resolution. The resolution does NOT mention Serbia in any way "in,within,of,inside.." I am not aware of any newer resolution Osli, but feel free to bring it over. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree absolutely with Ilir_pz . The things that he explained are the facts today. Maybe the main problem is that some users just don’t want to face the truth… --[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 10:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, other than saying that Kosovo remains a part of FRY (ie no change of the formal status quo since before 1999), UNSCR 1244 only discusses how Kosovo is to be administred (until a new UNSCR on its status can be concluded).

SCG is the successor of FRY. With the breakup of SCG, Serbia will inherit its UN seat and intl. treaties and agreements. CG will need to reapply for a UN seat. UNSCR 1244 doesn't have to be "revised" to reflect this.

So, Kosovo is technically a province of/in Serbia. Feel free to go through the technicalities of UNSCR 1244 in a separate section. We are talking about an '''introduction to the article''' here.
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 10:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::Exactly because it is an intro, you should refer to UNSCR 1244 as it is, and provide the technicalities (if they make sense) in the separate section below. And not provide some made-up technicalities and PUSH (like you've been doing eversince you started your wiki-career) to just mention Serbia, and nothing else when referring to Kosovo...for the sake of some kind of neutrality, which I still do not understand still.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I'm pushing for the truth - legal and technical. POV has nothing to do with it.

I realize that you feel my insisting on Kosovo technically (still) being a province of Serbia is pushing a POV (since few, if any, Kosovar Albanians agree with this). However, this is technically and legally correct as well as widely accepted in the world community (see all/any of my previous posts here).

Therefore, insisting on referring to UNSCR 1244:s mention of FRY rather than Serbia (which is natural, since FRY, not Serbia, was the UN member at the time), for the reasons you have stated yourself (Kosovar Albanians don't want anything to do with Serbia), is the real POV pushing.

[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::What is the truth? General truth? or YOUR truth? Do not use such words which have a broad meaning. If you study politics you should know that there is no such word there :). Insisting about what the UN Resolution ACTUALLY says is POV pushing? now that is some opinion. I have no further comment. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Because I would value the opinion of more people, I posted a link at [[Wikipedia:Third opinion]]. Perhaps some of you can make a '''short''' statement on your view of this dispute. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 10:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
::Sure, cool. Thanks, cpt.Morgan.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that would be a good way forward.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 11:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

To faciliate other editors to contribyute, I started a new heading below with two proposed wordings an the objections that were raised here (without stating exactly who or what made the point). Feel free to add other points to the list or change them if I did not word them correctly in your opinions , but I suggest we continue the discussion from there. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 11:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Also posted it on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics]], with the same intention and description, to get more people to give their opinion. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 12:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:FYI, I may have unintentionally thrown a bit of fuel on this fire by making an edit replacing "Serbia and Montenegro" with "Serbia" yesterday without noting this debate, and for that, I apologize. In any case, speaking as someone with absolutely no allegiance to one national tradition or the other but a pretty decent grasp of international law, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties makes it clear that the rights and responsibilities held by FRY went to S&M and then went to the present Republic of Serbia. Resolution 1244 would be read by any serious international lawyer to mean Kosovo is part of the ''de jure'' sovereign territory of whatever state is regarded as the [[successor state]] to FRY. Now, I think it's pretty clear that the majority of the population there doesn't consider themselves part of the Serbian nation. Fine. But statecraft is full of blacks and whites (to a fault), and its clear that Kosovo is officially part of the state of Serbia, with 1244 only transferring administrative control to the UN. This is a cold fact of life. Being Irish doesn't prevent me from recognizing that Northern Ireland falls under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom under international law, and I should hope those Albanian contributors will recognize that publishing the legal circumstances of Kosovo's current situation as currently recognized by the international community does nothing to strengthen or demean the aspirations of Kosovars to self-determination. [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 23:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::Apology accepted. (at least from my side). With all due respect to your background and your personal opinion, we are dealing with a law here. And any serious international lawyer knows that for new definitions to be accepted, the law should be changed accordingly, and not according to some "common sense". Laws are laws. The current compromise on the definition of the intro part is supposed to reflect the current situation, which is defined by the UNSCR 1244, and has nothing to do with strengthening or weakening any aspirations of any particular group of people. My aim here is to '''only''' reflect the legal circumstances '''as they are''' defined by the law, and not according to some personal opinions, be that of mine, or anyone else. As I said several times before, my personal opinion is very different from what the UN Resolution states, and I have my reasons and facts for it, but that is not the point here. Best regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No need to apologize (at least to neutral editors) :P. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Thanks, ilir pz. Perhaps I should have been clearer, though--this isn't a question of common sense. International law is pretty explicit about successor states, and just because the officially signed copy of 1244 in some locked climate-controlled filing cabinet somewhere in the UN basement says Kosov(o/a) is part of the FRY doesn't mean that the text is static in a legal sense. The [[Charter of the United Nations]] says the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a permanent member of the security council. It said that in 1956, and it said it in 1986, and it says that in 2006. That passage has never been amended. But somehow Russia is a permanent member of the council? This isn't because of interpretation or opinion or goodwill on anyone's part, it's because the Vienna convention sets out the process that let Russia be considered the successor state of the USSR, and as such you mentally strike out the USSR and insert Russia in every instrument of international law on the books. The Vienna convention keeps legal obligations in place ''without'' the need, as you imply, to change the letter of various laws through a formal amendment. Likewise, the FRY's name might be on the Kyoto Protocol (for argument's sake, I'm not about to look it up), but that got automatically switched conceptually to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003, and now will be switched to just "Serbia" when being read legally, even though nobody would deny the word "Yugoslavia" is inked onto the paper. 1244 falls under the same umbrella. Does this make it any clearer? [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 00:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::thanks for taking the time to explain. I'd rather see this explicit law about what happens with successor states defined in a UN document, than just accept your claim as such. No offense. I may lack knowledge in the particular issue, hence I need to see the reference to it. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:::No prob. [[Succession of states|Wikipedia's coverage]] of the area, and a link to the Treaty text: [http://www.taiwandocuments.org/vienna02.htm It's rather heavy going]. 1244 probably is best covered by the Convention's Article 12. [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 01:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== Josip Broz Tito ==

Why no one wrote anything about Tito in the article?
His role is very important, and I hope that all the Albanians and Serbs understand that. I suggest we add something after they unlock the article. What do the others think?
[[User:Gianni ita|Gianni ita]] 07:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

::sure. His role '''was''' important.[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Turkish as one of the official languages in Kosovo? Lol no way man. These is false based information. At no one!!! almost no one wiki of an county i see that c*** sh** info.

::Turkish has been the third official language in Kosovo, until UNMIK decided to have it removed. Now turkish is only official in locations where Turks are a majority, but is not official as Albanian and Serbian are. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

== Political status of Kosovo ==
A short description of the dispute why the article is locked:

The current wording in the start of the article is:

'''Kosovo''' ... is a province under [[United Nations]] administration. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (now [[Serbia and Montenegro]]), but in practice it runs independently from the former.

The objections that have been raised to this wording are (regardless of who made the statement):
* It puts to much emphasis on the no longer existant [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (FRY)
* Kosovo is not a province of FRY or [[Serbia and Montenegro]], but of [[Serbia]]
* It mentions [[Serbia and Montenegro]] (SCG) as the follow-up of FRY
* As of next saturday, [[Montenegro]] will be independent
* It sounds more like a legal document than an introduction to the article.

A recently proposed alternative was (already taking into account the independence of Montenegro next saturday):

'''Kosovo''' is a province in southern [[Serbia]]. It came under the administration of the [[United Nations]] in 1999 when it was part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]).

The objections that have been raised to this wording are (regardless of who made the statement):
* The UN resolution 1244 does not talk about Serbia or Serbia-Montenegro, but it talks about the FRY
* Serbia is not the follow-up of FYR
* Kosovo being a province of/in Serbia is not true since it is under UN control
* Kosovo being a province of/in Serbia is offensive for Albanians/Kosovars
* It violates the Constitutional Framework [http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm] of Kosovo, which nowhere states the wording suggested above. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
* It ignores the de-facto situation [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
[[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 11:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

'''Note:''' It is worth mentioning also that the existing version is a long-agreed version, which was edited for months before the protection was applied, due to revert wars taking place. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
:Current compromise version (with at the time de-jure instead of in principle) is of 25 May 2006. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=54984975&oldid=54981052]. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 12:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

This is becoming so tedious. But, I will repeat my arguments for the second version (what I already see as a compromise with the truth). The logic runs as follows:

* Kosovo was internationally recognized as a province of Serbia in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia prior to 1999 (1974-1991 it had the status as an autonomous province within Serbia, which was de-facto revoked in 1991)
* UNSCR 1244 confirmed that Kosovo would remain a part of FRY (the state which was the counterpart of in the UN system) but that the UN would administer it - ie it confirmed the legal status quo of Kosovo.
* 2003 FRY was turned into SCG. Unde the constitutions of both (FRY and SCG) Kosovo was/is defined as a part of the Republic of Serbia.
* When SCG dissolves, Serbia will inherit all treaties and international agreements of SCG, including the seat at the UN and.... UNSCR 1244 (which is why it will not have to be "revised").
* All maps of Europe show Kosovo as a province of/in Serbia, including those by:
** EU Commission [http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm],
** CIA [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/yi.html],
** Wikipedia,[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Physical_Map_of_Europe.jpg]]
** United Nations [http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/yugoslav.pdf][http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/southyug.pdf]
** US State Department [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/yi/]
all show Kosovo as a province of Serbia.
* Kosovo is widely accepted in the world as a province of/in Serbia. For example, a recent report by the US Congressional Research Service on the future status of Kosovo [http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/Kosovo_%20Future_Status.pdf] as well as the US Council on Foreign Relations [http://www.cfr.org/publication/9936/kosovo_eyes_independence.html] define Kosovo as a province in/of Serbia (although they say that is should become independent).

[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Council of Foreign Relations writes under the topic of "What is Kosovo’s political status?":

''Since NATO forces occupied Kosovo in 1999, the province has been a protectorate of the United Nations, with broad administrative responsibility under a mission called UNMIK. Technically, Kosovo remains a province of Serbia.'' [http://www.cfr.org/publication/9936/kosovo_eyes_independence.html#2]

Surely this is a neutral and knowledgeable source?
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You successfully managed to get me tired and bored of Wikipedia for some time, Osli73. Congratulations. Your pushy POV achieved what you (obviously) wanted. I need a break. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 14:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:Hooray Osli! Good job. Ilir, if "neutral" editors disagree with you, and you accuse them of P)V, then it's most likely that you're the one POV pushing. And in fact, you are. Why would Osli spread "Serb propaganda", if not Serb and has nothing to gain from it? He has said before he agrees with Kosovo independence, and I respect his opinion, even though it is not the same as mine. However, you can't ignore the evidence that he presented coming from very reputable sources. I'd advise you to stop such childish games, you are waging a losing battle my friend:)))) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::whatever. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both for making your case here (again), I know it all has been said before but this summary makes it much easier for others to join in. I suggest we all leave it at this for a while, unless other people join the discussion. That way everybody cools down and we might get some fresh ideas (either by ourselves or from other comments). [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 14:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== Food for Thought ==
#Encyclopaedia Britannica [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9046111?query=kosovo&ct=]: ''KOSOVO (Albanian: Kosova): '''Region within the republic of Serbia''', Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic. Kosovo is bordered by Serbia proper to the north and east, Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west, and the republic of Montenegro to the northwest. Serbs call the region Kosovo and Metohija...''
#Encarta (2006) [http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579795/Kosovo.html]: ''Kosovo, '''province in southwestern Serbia''', in the republic of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or FRY). Kosovo is bounded on the south by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, on the west by Albania, and on the northwest by Montenegro...''
#2006 Columbia Encyclopedia[http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/K/Kosovo.asp]: ''KOSOVO [Kosovo] or Kosovo-Metohija , Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet, '''province''' (2002 est. pop. 1,900,000), 4,126 sq mi (10,686 sq km), S Serbia and Montenegro, '''in Serbia'''. Priština is the chief city..."
#CIA Factbook (updated 1 June 2006) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/yi.html], regarding administrative divisions in SM: ''2 republics (republike, singular - republika); and 2 nominally autonomous provinces (autonomn pokrajine, singular - autonomna pokrajina)('''both in the republic of Serbia''')* ; Kosovo* (temporarily under UN administration, per UN Security Council Resolution 1244), Montenegro, Serbia, Vojvodina*''
Regards, --[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 09:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::None of these documents regulate the status of Kosovo, neither represent any laws. As such, irrelevant for the topic we are discussing. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 09:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::This is an encyclopaedia, Ilir, as are those above. As for the status of Kosovo, the fact is that it is a province of Serbia and this is not denied by anyone, this is no place to discuss what it should or should not be. Name me a single country that does not recognise this. The onus is definitely on you. This is no place for minority views. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 10:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Resolution 1244 does not predict what it should be, but what is (was) from 1999. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
:As you already know, the famous Resolution 1244 does not deny the sovereignty and territorial integrity, as it seems you are actually implying. Well, you are entitled to hold your [[WP:POV|personal views]] but do not try to [[WP:OWN|impose them]] on the article. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 10:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::Start from yourself with the advices you give me. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::No need to be uncivil, thanks. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 11:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Have a nice one. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I dont really care much for the Serb/Albanian disputes but I thought it was common knowledge that Kosovo is an autonomous province of Serbia (at least theoretically). The way it is written it makes it sound that Kosovo is a province of Yugoslavia. I am pretty sure this is not the case otherwise its position under international law would be similar to that of Montenegro and independence would be much less of a problem than it is at this point. The article should be unprotected and reference to Serbia should be included. I dont think Albanian wikipedians should try to stop this from happening. The problem (and paradox) of Kosovo still being part of Serbia is not going to go away by negating it on wikipedia. If I were Kosovar Albanian i would be trying to make this be known so as to find a solution for the future of my territory.
Asterion, q pasaa quishooo! ya me he metío en l embolao este... q vicio! jeje.

--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 21:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:The article will not be unprotected unless we will find a compromise statement to use in the introduction. I have been trying to negotiate a compromise, but this has been difficult because the two views are not easily brought together. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 22:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::What about this? ''Kosovo is an autonomous province whithin the Republic of Serbia (formerly part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia), temporarily under [[UNMIK|United Nations]] administration (per [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]])'' [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 23:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Hi, it sounds fine with me but I am sure that Ilir has objections (see his comments above). Since he got blocked for 24 hours and I want to give him also the opportunity to come up with a version, we will wait for some time to start the poll. In my opinion, the poll should not include too many (max 3) options for the intro. I suggest one written by you and/or Osli, one written by Ilir and I will prepare a compromise version. Is that allright with you?[[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 23:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

::::OK with me, of course. You would need to ask the rest of the people. Straw polls need to run for some days, anyway. So hopefully everyone would be able to contribute. I am sure some admin is keeping a close eye on sockpuppets too. Thanks for your help. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 23:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey Burgas00, why did you make that personal attack on me on my user page? I found it rather funny:)))[[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Just one thing, I've left Wikipedia, but found interesting quotes: "With Montenegro's independence vote, Serbia inherits the union's legal claim to Kosovo." [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5005344.stm] and "Today, Kosovo is de facto an international protectorate but legally is part of Serbia" [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1039269.stm]. You should put this in the article. bye. --[[Image:GrbSrbije.PNG|26px]] [[User:Bormalagurski|'''serbiana''']] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|'''talk''']] 23:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL... This dispute is really funny... People try to convince Albanian from Kosovo that Kosovo is part of Serbia, and they don't want to beleive in it, and deny the true [b]facts[/b]. :D I can't beleive. How I say sometimes: Fool is the one who doesn't know that he doesn't know. --[[User:Mephistophilus|Mephistophilus]] 15:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Of course I disagree with the versions above. I still insist that they violate the definitions by the 2 main documents/laws ruling Kosovo from 1999: 1244 UNSCR and Kosovo's Constitutional framework. None of those articles mentions Serbia, in NO part of it. What is a fact or what is not, that is not the point here. If we followed a fact, de-facto Kosovo is independent, but we are talking de-jure here. And de-jure (read: according to law, read:highest law in Kosovo is UNSCR 1244 and its Constitional Framework):
::* Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, and according to 1244 UNSCR it is de-jure a part of FRY, but de-facto is administered independently from the former.

::Refer to the main laws in rule in Kosovo, and none of you will have a reason to ironize me, or call my edits as funny. I am not imposing my POV here, as mine is very different from the 1244 Resolution, which I do not like at all. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 18:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::As you may already know, Ilir, Res 1244 does not deny the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (aka Serbia and Montenegro), which in turn recognises Kosovo and Metohija as a province of Serbia, as every other country in the world does (with the possible exception of Albania, if they finally make up their mind). At the time, Serbia was a state, part of a federation, hence any foreign agreements were negotiated by the Federal government (as Serbia had no international representation indeed). Also Serbia is now the legal sucessor of the FRY/S&M. Therefore, please stop playing word games regarding "not mentioning Serbia". [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 19:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::::UN Resolution 1244 does ''not'' say that Kosovo is a province of Serbia. It says that it is a province of the FRY. The resolution was not changed when the FRY transformed into Serbia and Montenegro, a looser political union of two republics. The Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro does, however, define Kosovo as a province of the Republic of Serbia. But the situation is unclear and no-one - whatever their opinion - can state what the legal status is until a new UN resolution is passed. The intro should quote both the relevant texts of UN Resolution 1244 and the S&M Constitution and leave it at that.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 22:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
::S&M constitution has no value in Kosovo, Ahwaz, that is clearly stated in the Resolution 1244. UNMIK is the institution that makes laws, according to UNSCR, and laws approved by the Parliament of Kosovo. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Ahwaz, the UN accepted Serbia and Montenegro as the sucessor state for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in the same way that Serbia is seen as the sucessor state for S&M. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 00:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::Your '''personal''' opinion is not needed here. Instead just refer to the resolution as it is. If it is changed, there would be a briefing on that from UN. When that happens I accept it as well. Until then, I do not have to agree to your logic. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::This dispute is not about opinions, as if we are talking if we like onions or not, and trying to find the reason behind people not liking it. (I do not like onions for example, and I have my reasons :)). In this case we are dealing with a definition, which MUST be based on some law, not on some personal opinion, of some kind of ''flow-of-responsibilities-from-a-state-to-a-state'' type of opinion. Every change in a law, in this case Resolution 1244, should be adopted accordingly, i.e. only when UN Security Council '''decides so''', not because some user in Wikipedia thinks that is fair or not. Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::: You are no one to decide who's opinion is or is not needed. Be a litte bit more pleasant Ilir.:))) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 00:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
:Look who's talking about being pleasant :))) [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I must agree again with facts brought from Ilir_pz here and under the discussion point: Political status of Kosovo.
:::As the UN Resolution 1244 was made there was no Serbia but FRY they were talking about. FRY doesn’t exist anymore. Serbia is not the following state of FRY. Serbia is just one of the states, which were in FRY. Where are the official documents that claim that Serbia is the follow-up of FRY?!
:::The fact is today that Kosovo is under the UN control and has its own political and economical institutions and Serbia has in reality no say there anymore. --[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 23:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Finally someone who reads the actual law, and considers it the correct source of defining the intro. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir and Mig11 interpret UNSCR 1244 as saying that Kosovo is a province in FRY and since FRY no longer exists it is no longer the province of anything. And definately not Serbia, which isn't mentioned in UNSCR 1244. This is their interpretation.

However, everyone else, including the Encyclopedia Britannica, Encarta, CIA Factobbook, the UN, the EU Commission, US COngressional Research Service, the US Council on Foreign Relations and Wikipedia itself, define Kosovo as, technically/legally, a province of Serbia based on USCR 1244.

[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 12:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::Well, the interesting thing is that data from Encyclopedia Britannica, Encarta, CIA Factobbook, etc, etc, was in fact written before Serbia became independent. We should see some source which define Kosovo status after June 5, 2006. :) Also, the status of [[Gaza Strip]] could be interesting for our discussion and perhaps could be compared with that of Kosovo. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Kosovo's status changed no more when "Serbia" replaced "Serbia and Montenegro" than it did when "Serbia and Montenegro" replaced "FR Yugoslavia" in 2003. As far as international law is concerned, they were both successions of states. I honestly don't see how this is an issue in some people's minds... can they point to one credible news source that says the events of June 5 have had a direct impact on Kosovo's status vis-a-vis 1244? The only place in the world I've seen this treated like a newly-created situation is here at Wikipedia. [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 02:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Well, the question is not that simple. See this link as example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3190320.stm Quote: "Is Kosovo part of Serbia? It certainly was before the conflict, and in the run-up to these talks, the Serbian parliament reaffirmed Serbia's sovereignty over the province. However, UN Resolution 1244 envisages a self-governing Kosovo within the framework of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia itself has since gone out of existence, and the loose union of Serbia and Montenegro which took its place may itself split in two eventually." So, the question is not only at Wikipedia. :) [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 02:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Thank you. That's at least something vaguely along those lines ;) Not to knock the BBC research department, but I think the various legal paraphernalia stories that have circulated in the press since that Q&A was written has made it clear amongst most journalists that this "status black hole" vaguely hypothesized there hasn't come to pass, and they seem to have been made aware that the S&M Constitution was specifically written to ensure that it couldn't.
:::::We have to keep in mind a lot changed from the early 90s. The SFRY vanished completely in legal terms, with a general free-for-all for sovereignty and no official successor state. Under circumstances like that, claims of Kosovo not falling under the ''de jure'' sovereignty of Belgrade and being in a weird stateless limbo would have held water. However, in what I guess was unfortunate for the Kosovars, the international community ultimately recognized the FRY (as a brand new state, which had to reapply to the UN) and recognized FRY sovereignty over the entire area that had been considered part of Montenegro and Serbia pre-1990, which, fairly or unfairly (and I bet there're plenty in suits in Brussels, London and Washington who are wishing now they hadn't), was taken to include Kosovo. That sovereignty was what 1244 spoke to, and that sovereignty was transferred to Serbia and Montenegro and transferred again to Serbia--these being controlled, legal successions of states spelled out in domestic and international law, unlike the general anarchy of the early 90s.
:::::I believe Kosovo will be independent, as do most commentators who know a lot more than me. If Belgrade can't be somehow pawned off with some sort of deal-sweetener that induces it to openly draft rules that allow for Kosovo separatism, though, and has to give up Kosovo kicking and screaming, I think it will mark a very interesting new precedent where the territorial integrity of a state was coercively altered by the international community (albeit for some pretty good reasons). That's what Putin's been talking about so much lately, vis a vis little places like [[Abkhazia]] and [[Nagorno-Karabakh]]. And that's why this legal question of how Kosovo's status is represented in the article isn't just about chest-thumping nationalist pride, but has important implications for Wikipedia's whole coverage of international law. Kosovo's the potential test case precisely because by the letter of the law Belgrade is entitled to it, as unjust as that might seem to many of us. The whole reason eyes will be watching these talks as they continue is precisely because, unlike the Montenegro situation, the Kosovo situation could have some aftershocks.
:::::Here's my proposed wording for the offending lead, for what it's worth:
:::::::'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Косово и Метохија/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a region in [[southeast Europe]]. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] but placed under [[United Nations]] administration; in practice the province is run independently of [[Belgrade]] by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]). Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and the [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:::::::Since the passage of Resolution 1244, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has been [[succession of states|succeeded]] by an [[Serbia|independent Republic of Serbia]]. Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.
:::::Thoughts? [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 04:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::I think it contains all the elements that we have been discussing on during the last few days, the only parts that people might object to (from what I have seen here) are the statements that Kosovo is autonomous, which is an arguable fact since it currently is under UN administration, and that the introduction places most emphasis on the FRY, which does not exist anymore, than on the current status, Kosovo being (arguably) located in Serbia. But we will have hear the comments from more people to see how they feel about this version. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 05:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The Thom, first of all, thank you for trying to help resolve the text to be used in the introduction of the article. I'm

'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Косово и Метохија/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a province in southern [[Serbia]]. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] (since then succeeded by Serbia) but placed under [[United Nations]] administration; in practice the province is run independently of [[Belgrade]] by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]). Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and the [[Kosovo Police Service]].

Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.

How about this?
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 10:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
::::You can't help mentioning Serbia at least twice in every paragraph, can you, Osli73? Of course your version is unnacceptable, as it is based in no fact (did I say no? Sorry, Serbian government "facts"). [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::The Tom, thanks for taking the time to explain yourself, and your opinion on the matter. I agree partly with your first paragraph, but I am not sure about the second. As I said, I need credible sources to believe that the successor states are just implied like that in the existing law. My opinion is, that the law should be update accordingly, so that one can mention that "the successor state is this and that". I thought laws are more accurate than this, and do not leave space for speculations of the sorts as mentioned above. (sorry for blindly calling it speculation, as I do not see a source). And yes, the term "autonomous" is irrelevant in this case. (For reasons that only UN knows) 1244 Resolution only confirms some kind of integrity to FRY, and does not say that Kosovo is an autonomous province of Serbia. As far as the precedent is concerned, I must refresh your memory/knowledge in matters related to the dissolvement of FRY: Kosovo was a federal unit, without the consent of which no federal-level law could be passed, or no decision could be made. Hence, as much as the other units of the Federation violated that "integrity" that much Kosovo did. Moreover, Kosovo has a much more valid pretext to "violate" that precedent, for reasons that you know very well. Putin's delegation in the Contact Group in January 2006 agreed that [http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/declarations/88236.pdf "Ministers look to Belgrade to bear in mind that the settlement needs, inter alia, to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo.] so I do not think he opposes that statement just now. I will try to give out a formulation of "my" version soon. I say "my" because it is not mine, it is as defined by the current documents. My version is yet to come, for 2006-2007 New Year's celebration. :) Thanks again, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:::I don't know what more I can do to convince you that in these situations, the law doesn't need to be amended, short of copying sections of my old international law textbook out. [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations the UN Charter], Article 23, surely, illustrates the fact that a piece of active, binding international law can have an impact on a differently-named country than the one in the text. If amendments were needed in situations like that, Iran could simply pass an internal constitutional amendment saying its name is "Irann" now and it can't be held party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty because that refers to somewhere called "Iran." [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 15:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== State Union ==

This page need to be updated as a result of the dissolution of the union between Serbia and Montenegro.

[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] 06:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
:Yes Stefan2, it does. If you read the discussions above, you will see a long ongoing discussion on the topic however. Perhaps you can give your opinion on that? [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 08:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me just add that Serbia *is* the legal successor of the FRY. —[[User:Nightstallion|Nightst]][[User:Nightstallion/esperanza|a]][[User:Nightstallion|llion]] [[User talk:Nightstallion|''(?)'']] 18:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:That is obvious, as Montenegro seceded from the union. This has actually been acknowledged too by Montenegro itself. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 18:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Montenegro has not yet seceded from the union. There was a referendum, but this is not the end of the matter. The union is not yet formally dissolved by the federal authorities, Montenegro is not recognised as independent by the UN or other nation states and does not yet have a constitution. There is little doubt that it will get independence soon, but the issue is too complex to state Kosovo's status following Montenegro's independence vote.--[[User:Ahwaz|الأهواز]] 01:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Hi Ahwaz, according to Wikipedia [[Main Page]], Montenegro has already declared independence and there has also been a separate declaration saying that Serbia is the legal and political successor of Serbia and Montenegro. I agree it is still too soon but I think everyone knows who is the user who started all this before the vote was not even over at the time. We can carry on discussing this matter tomorrow. I have to work in a few hours. Best regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 01:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Geez Asterion, just go to bed already, I think even Ilir's left. :) Regards, [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 01:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
----

These quarrels are becoming very annoying/boring. You keep arguing over irrelevant things, instead of facing the reality. This is an encyclopedia - and it should be modallled in the form of other encyclopediae. Kosovo '''is''' legally a province of Serbia - as presented everywhere in the world (the 1244 is actually, far more irrelevant). Since this is not something of a political-push agenda, it should be presentend that way, until it's no longer that way. Premier Agin Ceku simply '''''cannot''''' demand independence and at the same time claim that Kosovo is independent from Serbia (ping!: self-contradictory). --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 00:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::quoting you, HRE, "1244 is actually, far more irrelevant" . Are you talking about the Resolution 1244, the UN Security Council resolution which is the law with the highest value in Kosovo? No further comment. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::: If I had a nickel for every time you said "no further comment", but kept on going....I'd well....be able buy back Kosovo and make all the inhabitants billionaires:))). [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No further comment, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 00:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Cha-Ching:))[[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 00:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes c-c-c-c I did make that personal attack on your user page. I appreciate you realise it was a joke. I think you overreacted by getting me blocked though:-)--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 08:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, even though I found it funny, it would have been rather offensive to someone else. But anyways, mix ups are mix ups, and the past is the past. Forgive and forget:))

P.S. You should be happy it was only a day, I got a week for calling an admin a racist lol. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 23:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow... I am so unawared. I had to come to wikipedia to notice that Kosovo is independent country. ;))) People, relax... Dogs are blind for colours, and there doesn't exist any method for teaching them to see. If they think that they will live better in independent Kosov'''a''', let them think that they live in independent Kosova, maybe all problems will dissapear if they think that? :D I think dogs would be sad if they would found out that colours exist:) Don't make little dogs sad lol --[[User:Mephistophilus|Mephistophilus]] 14:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::I am sure none is interested in your dog-stories, and speculations, Mephistophilus. Thanks for dropping a line. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 14:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Don t wory be happy. Serbia is going to be independent, but first Kosovo must be regotnazied, after thate Vojvodina and Sandjak and then the word is going to know what is this serbs nationalistic creature "Serbia".

You see, ilir, I don't think much users are interested in your continued speaking about independent Kosovo, and all other types of spam on this dispute. I just don't understand people who give you attention and after 3 archived pages they still try to explain you some things that you can't, and will never understand. Just after reading your user page, I understood all that I had to understand about you (talking as [[pacifist]], so you (I HOPE) understand why). I think your presence on this article and talk page will not improve the article or help other users to improve it.

To the "gentleman" above me: I can't say I'm happy but for certain that's not because of wikipedia and wikipedians. :D What are you prophet? Could you tell me how to get some money? :). Serbia is "nationalistic crature" but Serbia gained independence last? I'm sure our liders have some secret plan about Great Serbia now. But I don't care... If propeth says that Vojvodina will be independent, I will be Vojvodian(?), and I don't care about anything els. :D

I hava a suggestion. Create future wikipedia and create articles there. Maybe prophetic work give better results ;) --[[User:Mephistophilus|Mephistophilus]] 17:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

::None is talking about the independence of Kosovo here. Read above and then comment. Thanks in advance, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I know to read lol... It seems that your purpose on this wikipedia is to deny things. As I said before, you can't teach blind to see so farewell. --[[User:Mephistophilus|Mephistophilus]] 12:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Have a nice one. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure... ;) --[[User:Mephistophilus|Mephistophilus]] 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==Kosovo and Gaza Strip==

Perhaps we can compare current status of Kosovo with that of [[Gaza Strip]]. We should also see some relevant source which speak about Kosovo status after June 5 (not before it). The fact that Serbian government declared that Serbia is a successor of Serbia-Montenegro does not mean that international community will recognize it as such in all questions, including the question about de jure authority over Kosovo. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 02:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::Yup, that is what I have been saying, Panonian. But I've been accused for spreading propaganda, and strong-headedness instead. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 12:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Here's a UN press release from June 5 calling Kosovo a "Serbian province" [http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=18742&Cr=Kosovo&Cr1=]. Obviously from the keyboard of one of their staffers and not someone at the ICJ, but I think it makes it pretty clear nobody at the UN is suddenly losing sleep because Kosovo's status is somehow changed.
:::Gaza, incidentally, is a totally different kettle of fish. As far as the general body of states are concerned (not everyone sees it this way, mind you), its official legal status is undecolonized territory not legally assigned to any state, dating back to the end of the British mandate in Palestine. Some UN resolutions in support of the peace process there have made it clear its reserved for a potential Palestinian state, to the best of my knowledge. Anyway, the last thing we need is to open things up to differing interpretations of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 15:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Does that "keyboard mistake" mean that the resolution has changed since June 5th? [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==Kosovo final status==

You all must see this:
* http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr91.html

If you think that we have problems with Kosovo status now, you should wait final solution which could be so complicated that our discussion here will never end. :)) For example, one of the proposed solutions is that Kosovo is in same time sovereign country itself and also under Serbian sovereignty. :)))) LOL I am sorry, but I really found this very funny. [[User:PANONIAN|'''PANONIAN''']] [[User talk:PANONIAN|'''(talk)''']] 02:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::hehe, wasn't that suggestion the current one from the Serbian government? or the Draskovic's rhetoric? :)))) There are many funny suggestions I hear these days, indeed. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== Proposal ==

:Here is "my" preliminary version, which complies with all 3 points that [[User:Reinoutr]] asked me to comply with, before putting proposals for voting: 1) It does state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it does state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (FRY) as defined by 1244 Resolution and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future, as indicated by [[Contact Group]] statements:

:::::::'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Косово и Метохија/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a region in [[southeast Europe]]. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is placed under [[United Nations]] administration, though de-jure it is still defined as a part of the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but runs independently of the latter. De-facto the province is run by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]), based on the Constitutional Framework[http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm] of Kosovo. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:::::::Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The negotiations are mediated by the international community, and enforced by the [[Contact Group]] [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/yi/c13102.htm]. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006, and indications from the Contact Group show that "the settlement will have to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo"[http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/declarations/88236.pdf] the majority of which seek recognition of full independence for the province.

:The article should comply with the 1244 UNSCR as it is. Whoever cares (and I do not really) to know what happened with pieces of the former FRY, let them follow the link. It is unacceptable to imply definitions based on some personal opinion, which undermines the law with the highest importance in Kosovo. Furthermore, citing constitution(s) of Serbia (and Montenegro, when there was such a country) is irrelevant, as since 1999 the latter has '''absolutely''' no say in Kosovo, but it is the [[UNMIK]] together with the Kosovo institutions that does. Anyways this formulation is of temporary in nature, as once the status is defined this all needs to be changed. But this one is good enough until then. Feedback (with no provocations) is appreciated,[[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 13:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
::I'm not sold on your suggestion for a couple of reasons, but I think we're getting closer. Without getting into that, though, I have a question for you to try and figure out what the deviation is--do you believe that for the years between 1244's passage and the dissolution of FRY that the Constitution of the FRY had some degree of ''de jure'' legitimacy with respect to Kosovo, as reserved by 1244, despite the fact that on the ground most people would agree the various instruments of UNMIK law served as the starting point? [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 15:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

::I'd rather hear you tell me where you disagree with my proposal. I do not think FRY or whatever its successor's names are, had any de-jure legitimacy. That is clearly stated in the 1244. The laws and decisions are made in Kosovo, by Kosovo's institutions and UNMIK and are confirmed by the UN Security council. Hope I understood your question. Pardon my lack of knowledge of English as a native-speaker. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 22:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I think User:Asterion has put forward our proposal ahead of the vote. Are you ready with yours? It would be nice to get the vote/poll done with.
Regards,[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 19:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

== Proposal #2 ==

Why not say "Kosovo is unrecognized as an entity seperate from Serbia". This is entirely correct - and will satisfy all those who complain about the POVness of this article (which tends to alienize from Serbia). --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 16:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:Apart from the fact that the way you put it is not very respectful of other peoples' opinions (you seem to assume that while we have been discussing for days about what is the current status of Kosovo, you know exactly what is ''entirely correct'' and that it will ''satisfy all''), I disagree with you. The sentence you propose is ambigious. It can mean that Kosovo ''is'' an entity separate from Serbia, but is not recognized (by whom, btw) as such, or it can mean that some people ''feel'' Kosovo is an entity separate from Serbia, but it isn't because it is not recognized as such. Articles in Wikipedia should be unambigious, but ''can'' reflect different opinions. This should be very clear however, and not muffled in a sentence that can be explained in two different ways. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
::I cannot see what on HRE's comments may be taken as offensive. Remember to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. I think that everyone with an interest on this subject should be allowed to express their opinion. Either by making comments on previous proposals or by suggesting a completely different one. Ideally we should stick to a small number of these (four maximum?) but I have no objections to HRE's explaining his views. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:::By the way, I suggest to create a subpage to keep the proposals separate fom the rest of the talk page discussions, in order to make the options clearer.[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, let's make a separate subpage for the vote. By the way, who will be organizing it? When will it take place? Does everyone have their version ready yet?[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 22:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:I strongly disagree with organizing a vote. This is not a case of seeing which of two competing visions of what Kosovo is can merit the most support. It's about drafting a correct vision of what Kosovo is. And I think that with the exception of a few radical nationalists on each side (by whom, I should clarify, I don't mean the people who've decided to discuss this rationally in the above section, but rather the single-issue and anon. crowd that seem to think that editing an online encyclopedia is a way of advancing their cause), it is possible for a mutually-acceptable version to be written that matches with what reality is. I think the best step to pursue at this stage is to try to narrow down what aspects of our conception of Kosovo are uncontested, and which one's are.
:On reviewing what I proposed above, I think we're all guilty of losing sight of something key to encapsulating what Kosovo is. In the name of trying to avoid saying outright whether Kosovo is legally Serbian, we're dancing around the elephant in the room: the most fundamental defining feature of Kosovo is the very fact that '''its identity is contested'''. (Most) Serbians think it's Serbian. (Most) Kosovars think it's not Serbian. Most neutral parties agree that this contestation of identity exists, that the current political ambiguity of governance for the place relects this, and the final status of the region is neccessarily going to involve resolving the above question. The pages and pages of above debate spring from this fact, and we don't even acknowledge that straight up in the lead paragraphs.
:1244 and the FRY and the succession of state are important, but in my mind focusing purely on the legal aspects of Kosovo's status is a cowardly way of avoiding the underlying debate. In my opinion, an NPOV should make clear that there's no right answer as to what Kosovo's identity is, only state the fact that many Serbs consider it a culturally integral part of their nation, and 90%+ of Kosovo's inhabitants strongly disagree with that belief. Only then should we move on the legal question, where I'm of the opinion that there is a single NPOV "truth" as to Kosovo's status:
#1244 says it's part of FRY but not to be administered by the FRY, with those responsibilities instead being carried out through the UN protectorate framework
#under international law the Rep. of Serbia inherits the FRY's claim
#Belgrade exercises no ''de facto'' control over Kosovo today, and hasn't at any point since 1244 was passed
#Negotiations are ongoing between Belgrade, the UN, and Kosovars to change Kosovo's status to something that is permanent.
:The mistake seems to have been getting hung up on #2 because the FRY's successor state is called "Serbia" and this is problematic because of the fundamental issue about Kosovo's identity we've been dancing around. I would urge those editors who've had problems with this to bear in mind that they're completely separate issues. Saying a state named "Serbia" inherits FRY's claim is not the same as saying "The Serb nation has the right to rule Kosovo because its an intrinsically Serbian place." For the sake of argument, let's say that instead of just having a referendum in Montenegro, there was a referendum in, oh, let's say Bulgaria, to ''join'' the State Union, and as result "Serbia and Montenegro" was replaced by "Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro." If that were the case, I can't imagine there'd be the same hostility to saying "Kosovo was technically said to be part of FRY per 1244, and today that means its technically part of the State Union of Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro, but in any case its still administered by the UN" Is this making sense? [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 22:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

::I understand your point but it seems this is the only way for some people to accept they are wrong and move on. I have no particular objections to your version. It is in fact very neutral and encyclopaedic, as for the one I helped to draft. I object to the obscuration or removal of facts (i.e. Kosovo as a province of Serbia) and the inclusion of highly biased comments on the future of the province, deeming it as "formal recognition of independence". In fact, this whole issue is leaking to other articles with some users unilaterally removing any reference to Serbia (eg. [[Pristina]] article). The point is [[WP:SOAP|Wikipedia is not a soapbox]]. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 19:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I'm new to this discussion. I'm mostly interested in the Kosovo war. However, I though the outcome of that war was that Kosovo remained a part of Serbia (at the time FRY) in principle but that it was to be governed by the UN until a final solution could be decided on. So, technically, Kosovo is a province of Serbia but is in effect governed by the UN. A bit like northern Cyprus, which is technically a part of Cyprus, but is in effect governed independently of it (or at least was).

If some people don't agree with this, isn't it best to have a vote on this and get it over with?[[User:KarlXII|KarlXII]] 23:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Nagorno-Karabach page has a solved a similar problem in an interesting way:

"'''Nagorno-Karabakh''' is a territory of Azerbaijan that has [[Unilateral Declaration of Independence|declared itself independent]] as the '''Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh''' ('''NKR'''). It is in the [[South Caucasus]], about 270 kilometres (about 170 mi.) west of the Azerbaijani capital [[Baku]]. The predominantly [[Armenians|Armenian]] region has been a source of dispute between [[Armenia]] and [[Azerbaijan]] since the final years of the [[Soviet Union]]. Karabakh is currently under Armenian [[Military of Armenia|military]] control, as a result of the subsequent war the took place between both countries in the aftermath of the dissolution of the USSR. The local Armenian population declared independence from Azerbaijan [[December 10]], [[1991]]. The NKR's [[Sovereignty|sovereign]] status is not recognized by any country or [[international organization]] in the world. Armenia and Azerbaijan have been holding peace talks mediated by the [[OSCE Minsk Group]], where, among other issues, the future status of the region is being discussed. <ref name="">[http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/in_depth/newsid_4685000/4685287.stm Chapters from the Russian version of the book "Black Garden" (In Russian)]</ref>"

Here, they are clear that it is part of Azerbaijan, but that it is de-facto controlled by Aremenians, although this is not recognized by any foreign govt. Perhaps we could agree on this exact wording for the Kosovo article?[[User:KarlXII|KarlXII]] 23:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

*"'''Nagorno-Karabakh'''???? What is thate. Are ther NATO trups as garant?. Is any UN resulution thate declaret this area under UN protection??? Has NATO bombt Aserbaijan??? You are traing to invol Rusia too??? Oh man Kosovo is Protectet from powerfull NATO army and paowerfull UN. You dont have souch case in World, is only one Kosovo. In '''Nagorno-Karabakh''' are there NATo basis???

Dear Tom, I too think it would be better to simply agree on a wording that identifies Kosovo as legally part of Serbia but in principle run by the UN (ie a protectorate). As has been shown countless times on this talk page, this is the view held by western media and governments as well as by international organizations. The problem is that one or two Kosovar Albanians (who thus have a very partisan view of the whole issue) don't accept this but propose their own interpretation of UNSCR 1244 (an interpretation not shared by the rest of the world) whereby Kosovo has nothing to do with Serbia.

I've proposed simply stating that Kosovo is in Serbia (rather than a province of Serbia), hoping this could be a compromise acceptable to both sides (implying geographic location rather than sovereignty, but still not excluding it). However, this compromise has been turned down by the Kosovar Albanian editors. They refuse to accept any text version which makes any mention of Kosovo still, technically, being a province in/of Serbia.

Thus, sadly, a vote seems to be the only way out. I don't like it but that's where we are now. So, lets get going with the vote!
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 10:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::Kosov is a province of Serbia = Kosovo is in Serbia, Osli, no need to use [[weasel words]]. And using Nagorni-Karabah as a comparison here is more than wrong. Kosovo existed in the Federation, as a constitutive unit, and is not a result of some war. This is the most important difference [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Ilir, Kosovo existed in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) - as a province of Serbia!!!! That is my point. In FRY (and also before) Kosovo was a province (sometimes autonomous, but always a province) of Serbia. So, when the UNSC confirmed the territorial integrity of FRY, they confirmed it as a province of Serbia.

I'm not trying to be a weasel, just trying to find a solution that might be acceptable to all while still being correct and not misleading.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 14:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

== Arguements, arguements, arguements ==

It's funny to me how you argue for days - but over funny things. It's like this: [[Serbia]] '''''is''''' the '''[[successor state]]''' of the [[State Union of Serbia and Montenegro]] - which is in turn, the successor state of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]. According to the 1244 Resolution - Kosovo is a temporarely UN-administered province of that [[Country]].

The other alternative to see things is '''not''' counting Serbia as the legal sovereign successor for Kosovo - then, the entire 1244 is rendered '''''invalid''''', and the negotiations will have to be brought once more. This alltogether shifts back (before 1999) to the Constitution of Serbia and the unconstitutional ("illegal") declaration of Kosovo's independence in 1991/1992. Yet again - a province of Serbia.

:In this arguement, I think the sole purpose is to exclude the mention of '''''Serbia''''' in the context. As Kosovo might become independent (I'm kindah - not entirely - supporting this), '''then''' we'll put it. So, the claim of putting Kosovo as independent doesn't seem to Ilir pz as '''predicting''' (which he said that he's opposed), but mentioning that it's a southern province of Serbia '''is'''? Also, I think that a frequent thing is happenning in here - the side that fanaticly believes that is right - doesn't see that it's own claims are, essentially, POV '''themselves'''. All the best. Sorry for these harsh words, but your empty (read: empty) arguements are really, really... --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 14:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have not personal issue in this, I'm neither Serb, Albanian, have any heritage or family connection with any of these or live (or have lived) in any of these places. I'm just concerned with Wikipedia not becoming a tool for various national groups pushing their POV, however subtly. If all other sources (Britannica, BBC, etc, etc) say that Kosovo is, technically, a province of Serbia, it would be detrimental to Wikipedia to say something else.

So, I suggest just having the vote to get the whole issue over with.[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

:Neither have I. On the other hand, I agree. Let's get on with the vote. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 18:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

== Comparison of versions so far ==
Because this talk page is getting cluttered with a lot of comments, I decided to list here once more the versions for the introduction that have been suggested before. A vote seems not appropriate at the moment, so instead I suggest that people give '''short''' comments on each of the versions (under the ''Comments by others:'' text). This way we at least can get an idea of how also other users feel about these three options. To prevent this turning into a real vote, I would like to ask everyone who adds an opinion, to give arguments for that choice '''in your own words''' (so '''no comments without arguments''' or by only referring to another editor who gave a comment please). [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 18:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Please note that I '''will remove''' comments not following the rules above. This is '''not a vote'''. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 15:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

::Are creators of other versions allowed to comment here, such as the comment below by Asterion? I thought we were asking for third-opinions here, Reinoutr?! [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Of course. The whole point is reaching consensus. Therefore, I would appreciate if you drop the uncivil comments (ie. "Serbian government propaganda") and provide sensible reasons instead. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

::This is, as I also stated, not a real vote. Because we surely can use some additional opinions here, I see it also as way to make future discussions easier and as far as I am concerned, anyone can reply as long as a comment is ''argumented and civil''. [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 21:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
-------------------
Written by: [[User:Ilir pz]]
:'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Косово и Метохија/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a region in [[southeast Europe]]. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is placed under [[United Nations]] administration, though de-jure it is still defined as a part of the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but runs independently of the latter. De-facto the province is run by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]), based on the Constitutional Framework[http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm] of Kosovo. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The negotiations are mediated by the international community, and enforced by the [[Contact Group]] [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/yi/c13102.htm]. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006, and indications from the Contact Group show that "the settlement will have to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo"[http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/declarations/88236.pdf] the majority of which seek recognition of full independence for the province.

Comments by others:
#'''Oppose'''. There is no mention of Serbia. The text also engages in futurology and ''[[leading the witness]]'', by a flawed syllogism in the last sentence. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 18:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#'''Strong oppose'''. This versions is lacking any at all mention of Serbia - a must-have with provinces that are/were rebelling and not fully seceded from their former "liege", to call it. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 15:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

--------------

Written by: [[User:The Tom]]
:'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Косово и Метохија/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a region in [[southeast Europe]]. By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]] (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]] but placed under [[United Nations]] administration; in practice the province is run independently of [[Belgrade]] by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]). Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and the [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:Since the passage of Resolution 1244, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has been [[succession of states|succeeded]] by an [[Serbia|independent Republic of Serbia]]. Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.

Comments by others:
#'''Oppose''' - The second paragraph is against the 1244 Resolution, because it does not cite any such amendments added to the resulution, but merely '''assumes''' that the succession is as such. The 1244 UN Security Council resolution is a law, and as such should be updated if any such succession takes place. Until then, assuming something else, that the resolution (nor any amendments to it) refer to, is a violation of the law with highest authority in Kosovo as of now. Furthermore, the version above does not comply with point 3 that Reinoutr suggested in order to reach the compromise: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. Reminder: the third point is what the media keep repeating all the time, and clearly the Security Council said that in its last statement (if you follow the last line of my version) Regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#::Respectfully, ilir, you're making a politicized interpretation of 1244 for nationalist purposes that's '''at odds with an international legal consensus'''. In order for the Republic of Serbia to inherit FRY's claim to Kosovo, there does '''not''' need to be any amendment to 1244, and I must confess to feeling mildly irritated that after digging around the web and citing the Vienna Convention chapter and verse you're still dismissing my presentation of how international law works out of hand and demanding I supply you with a citation of an amendment that doesn't exist. The Kosovar political apparatus itself has not said a peep about the whole S&M-to-Serbia thing as having any bearing whatsoever on 1244 because it's a non-issue to them. UN news releases post-June-5 refer to Kosovo as legally Serbian. Short of calling up Matti Antissari I don't know how I can make this case any clearer to you. [[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 23:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#:::I thought we weren't supposed to comment on each other here, The Tom. Not serving any nationalistic purpose here, no need to offend me. As much as I did politics courses and international law at the Uni, I did not know a law can just be interpreted without any explicit amendment. Respectfully, too, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#'''Weak Support'''. This version seems best - it's just ''slightly'' confusing. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

--------------

Written by: [[User:Osli73]] and [[User:Asterion]]
:'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: ''Косово и Метохија''/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is an autonomous province in southern [[Serbia]]. Following the [[Kosovo War]] in 1999, Kosovo was placed under [[United Nations]] temporary administration ([[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]]). Although it legally remains a part of Serbia, it is in fact run independently of [[Belgrade]] by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]) and the [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]]. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and the [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.
Comments by others:
#'''Strong oppose''' The version mentions the word "autonomous" refering to Kosovo, and furthermore states that it is a province of Serbia, something not mentioned anywhere in the 1244 UNSC Resolution. It merely cites the Constitution of Serbia, which is not taken into consideration in Kosovo, which is administered by [[UNMIK]] which has the highest authority in Kosovo, and responds to the UN Security Council only. The third line also violates the 1244 UNSC Resolution, where FRY is mentioned, and not Serbia. The version above is a wording used by the Serbian government, and as such should be flagged because it is a purely Serbian government propagandistic version. Furthermore, the version above does not comply with point 3 that Reinoutr suggested in order to reach the compromise, to which the two users above agreed before submitting their versions: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. Reminder: the third point is what the media keep repeating all the time, and clearly the Security Council said that in its last statement (if you follow the last line of my version) Best regards, [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 21:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' This qualifies as having both neutral and truthful points of view. Version was created by two very neutral and fair editors.Ilir, Kosovo is indeed a province of Serbia, let's quote you above: ''The future of the '''province''' is set to be determined by the end of 2006, and indications from the Contact Group show that "the settlement will have to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo"[http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/declarations/88236.pdf] the majority of which seek recognition of full independence for the '''province'''.'' But then you write: ''The version mentions the word "autonomous" refering to Kosovo, and furthermore states that it is a province of Serbia, something not mentioned anywhere in the 1244 UNSC Resolution. '' If it's not a province of Serbia, then who's province is it? Hehe, Regards, [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 21:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
#'''Weak support'''. This version seems perfect in all but - seems slightly pro-Serbian. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
#:I assume you mean because the usage of the word ''autonomous''. Well, this is how the province is defined. I would have no problems taking this off but this is how it is defined by many other encyclopedic sources too. Thanks for the constructive criticism, HRE. --[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 12:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
#'''Strong oppose''': not objective. [[User:Noah30|Noah30]] 15:19, 10 June 2006

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Written by: [[User:CrnaGora]] - Note:I don't want to enter a propaganda or anything. Just putting down the facts. Please don't blame me for what I wrote. I think this would be acceptable to write in the article as the introduction. Also, I don't want to enter in these edit wars or clash with Serbs and Albanians because of this. -- [[User:CrnaGora|CrnaGora]]

:'''Kosovo''' ([[Albanian language|Albanian]]: ''Kosovë''/''Kosova'', [[Serbian language|Serbian]]: ''Косово и Метохија''/''Kosovo i Metohija'') is a region in [[southeast Europe]]. Following the [[Kosovo War]] in 1999, Kosovo was temporarily placed under [[United Nations]] administration (UN Security Council Resolution 1244). By the [[UN Security Council Resolution 1244]], Kosovo is placed under [[United Nations]] administration and is a UN protectorate, though de-jure it is still defined as an autonomous province as part of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but runs independently from the latter. Technically, now since FRY doesn't exist anymore, Kosovo is not part of Serbia, since according to the UNSC Resolution 1244, Kosovo is part of FRY and not of Serbia. De-facto the province is run by its [[Provisional Institutions of Self-Government]] and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo ([[UNMIK]]), based on the Constitutional Framework[http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm] of Kosovo. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the [[NATO]]-led Kosovo Force ([[KFOR]]) and [[Kosovo Police Service]].

:Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in [[Vienna]] on [[February 20]] [[2006]], between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia<ref>http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija</ref>. The negotiations are mediated by the international community, and enforced by the [[Contact Group]] [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/yi/c13102.htm]. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006. Kosovo is very likely to win independence because after what happened in the [[Kosovo War]] (Albanians were the targets in the Kosovo War) and since 88% of the population is Albanian.

Comments by others:
# '''Weak oppose''' This version again uses the word "autonomous" and refers to Serbia, without strictly following the description given by the law with the highest authority in Kosovo, 1244 UN Security resolution. That is the main flaw of this version. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 23:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
# '''Neutral leaning towards oppose'''. It's slightly confusing. --[[User:HolyRomanEmperor|HolyRomanEmperor]] 12:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

# '''Oppose''' Its got horrendous grammar for one. [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 16:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Demographic history of Kosovo

2006-06-09T22:53:46Z

C-c-c-c: rv to Asterion, please stop pushing a nationalist POV Ilir. Thank you for understanding:)

{{POV-check}}
{{Serbia topics}}

== Ottoman Rule ==
=== 14th century ===
The [[Dečani]] Charter from [[1330]]{{citation needed}} contained detailed list of households and chartered villages in [[Metohija]] and northwestern [[Albania]]:
:3 of 89 settlements were [[Albanian]], the other being non-Albanian.
:Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as [[Albanian]] (''1,8%''). Others were registered as [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] i. e. [[Serbian]].

The non-Serbian population of Kosovo didn't exceed ''2%'' by the end of the [[14th century]].{{citation needed}}

=== 15th century ===
[[1455]]: Turkish [[cadastral]] [[tax]] [[census]] ([[defter]])<ref>The original Turkish-language copy of the census is stored in [[Istanbul]]'s archives. However, in 1972 the [[Sarajevo]] Institute of Middle Eastern Studies translated the census and published an analysis of it Kovačević Mr. Ešref, Handžić A., Hadžibegović H. ''Oblast Brankovića - Opširni katastarski popis iz 1455.'', Orijentalni institut, Sarajevo 1972. Subsequently others have covered the subject as well such as Vukanović Tatomir, ''Srbi na Kosovu'', Vranje, 1986.</ref> of the [[Brankovic]] dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day [[Kosovo]]) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). By ethnicity:
* 12,985 [[Serb]]ian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
* 75 [[Vlach]] dwellings in 34 villages
* 46 [[Albanians|Albanian]] dwellings in 23 villages
* 17 [[Bulgarians|Bulgarian]] dwellings in 10 villages
* 5 [[Ethnic Greek|Greek]] dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
* 1 [[Jew]]ish dwelling in Vučitrn
* 1 [[Croat]] dwelling

[[1487]]: A census of the [[House of Branković]] [[Ottoman Empire|Ottoman]]
* [[Vučitrn]] district:
:* 16,729 [[Christian]] housing (412 in [[Priština]] and [[Vučitrn]])
:* 117 [[Moslem]] households (94 in [[Priština]] and 83 in rural areas)

* [[Scutari]] district:
:* [[Peć|Ipek]] district:
::* [[Peć|City of Ipek]] - ''68%'' [[Slavs]]
::* 121 [[Christian]] household
::* 33 [[Moslem]] households
:* [[Suho Grlo]] and [[Metohija]]:
::* 131 [[Christian]] household of who ''52%'' in Suho Grlo were [[Slavs]]
:* [[Donja Klina]] - ''50%'' [[Slavs]]
:* [[Dečani]] - ''64%'' [[Slavs]]

* Rural areas:
:* 6,124 [[Christian]] housings (''99%'')
:* 55 [[Moslem]] houses (''1%'')

=== 17th - 18th century ===
The [[Great Turkish War]] of [[1683]]-[[1699]] between the [[Ottoman Empire|Ottomans]] and the [[Habsburgs]] led to the flight of a substantial part of [[Kosovo|Kosovan]] [[Serbs|Serbian]] population to [[Austria]]n held [[Vojvodina]] and the [[Military Frontier]] - over 180,000 Serbs; 20,000 Serbs left [[Prizren]] alone. Following this an influx of [[Moslem]] [[Albanians|Albanian]]<ref name=Weigand>Gustav Weigand, Ethnographie von Makedonien, Leipzig, 1924; Густав Вайганд, [http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/gw/gw_index.html Етнография на Македония] (Bulgarian translation)</ref> from the highlands ([[Malesi]]) occurred, mostly into [[Metohija]]. The process continued in 18th century<ref name=Weigand/>.

The same was repeated during the Second Migration of Serbs in [[1737]].

=== 19th century ===
[[19th century]] data about the population of '''Kosovo''' tend to be rather conflicting, giving sometimes numerical superiority to the ''Serbs'' and sometimes to the ''Albanians''. The Ottoman statistics are regarded as unreliable, as the empire counted its citizens by religion rather than nationality, using birth records rather than surveys of individuals.

A study in [[1838]] by an Austrian physician, dr. ''Joseph Müller'' found [[Metohija]] to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character.<ref name=Mueller>Dr. Joseph Müller, ''Albanien, Rumelien und die Österreichisch-montenegrinische Gränze'', [[Prague|Prag]], 1844</ref> Müller gives data for the three counties (''Bezirke'') of [[Prizren]], [[Peć]] and [[Đakovica]] which roughly covered [[Metohija]], the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Metohija, Müller found:
* 114,000 [[Muslims]] (''58%''):
** c. 38,000 are [[Serbs]] (''19%'')
** c. 76,000 are [[Albanians]] (''39%'')
* [[Christians]]:
** 73,572 [[Eastern Orthodoxy|Eastern Orthodox]] [[Serbs]] (''38%'')
** 5,120 [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] [[Albanians]] (''3%'')
* 2,308 other non-Muslims ([[Janjevci]] etc.)

Müller's observations on towns:
*Peć: 11.050 [[Serbs]], 500 [[Albanians]]
*Prizren: 16,800 [[Serbs]], 6150 [[Albanians]]
*Đakovica: majority of [[Albanians]], surrounding villages [[Serbs|Serbian]]

Map published by French ethnographer [[G. Lejean]]<ref name=Wilkinson>H.R. Wilkinson, Maps and Politics; a review of the ethnographic cartography of Macedonia, Liverpool University Press, 1951</ref> in [[1861]] shows that Albanians lived on around 57% of the territory of today's province while a similar map, published by British travellers [[G. M. Mackenzie]] and [[A. P. Irby]]<ref name=Wilkinson/> in [[1867]] shows slightly less; these maps don't show which population was larger overall.

A study done in [[1871]] by [[Austria]]n colonel [[Peter Kukulj]]<ref>''Das Fürstenthum Serbien und Türkisch-Serbien, eine militärisch-geographische Skizze'' von Peter Kukolj, Major im k.k.Generalstabe, [[Vienna|Wien]] 1871</ref> for the internal use of the [[Austria-Hungary|Austro-Hungaria]]n army showed that the mutesarifluk of [[Prizren]] (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:
* 318,000 [[Serbs]] (''64%''),
* 161,000 [[Albanians]] (''32%''),
* 10,000 [[Roma people|Romas]] (Gypsies) and [[Circassians]]
* 2,000 [[Turkish people|Turks]]

It is estimated that between 200,000 and 400,000 ''Serbs'' were cleansed out of the [[Vilayet of Kosovo]] between [[1876]] and [[1912]], especially during the [[Greco-Turkish War (1897)|Greek-Ottoman War]] in [[1897]].<ref>http://www.kosovo.net/sk/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter2.html</ref>

Maps published by German historian [[Heinrich Kiepert|Kiepert]]<ref name=Wilkinson/> in [[1876]], [[J. Hahn]]<ref name=Wilkinson/> and Austrian consul [[K. Sax]]<ref name=Wilkinson/>, show that ''Albanians'' live on most of the territory of today's province, however they don't show which population is larger. According to these, the regions of [[Kosovska Mitrovica]] and [[Kosovo Polje]] were settled mostly by ''Serbs'', whereas most of the terrirory of western and eastern parts of today's province was settled by ''Moslem Albanians''.

An Austrian statistics<ref>Detailbeschreibung des Sandzaks Plevlje und des Vilajets Kosovo (Mit 8 Beilagen und 10 Taffeln), Als Manuskript gedruckt, Vien 1899, 80-81.</ref> published in [[1899]] estimated:
* 182,650 [[Albanians]] (''47.88%'')
* 166,700 [[Serbs]] (''43.7%'')
* Remaining ''8.42%'' [[Tsintsars]], [[Turkish people|Turks]], [[Circassians]], [[Roma and Sinti|Romas]] and [[Jews]]

=== 20th century ===
British journalist [[Henry Brailsford|H. Brailsford]] estimated<ref>H. N. Brailsford, Macedonia, Its Races and Their Future, London, 1906</ref> that two-thirds of the population of Kosovo was Albanian and one-third Serbian. The most populous western districts of [[Djakovica]] and [[Pec]] were said to have between 20,000 and 25,000 Albanian households, as against some 5,000 Serbian ones. Map of [[Alfred Stead]]<ref>Servia by the Servians, Compiled and Edited by Alfred Stead, With a Map, London (William Heinemann), 1909. (Etnographical Map of Servia, Scale 1:2.750.000).</ref>, published in [[1909]], shows that similar numbers of Serbs and Albanians were living in the territory.

German scholar [[Gustav Weigand]] gave the following statistical data about the population of Kosovo<ref name=Weigand/>, based on the pre-war situation in Kosovo in [[1912]]:
* [[Prishtina]] District: ''67%'' [[Albanians]], ''30%'' [[Serbs]]
* [[Prizreni]] District: ''63%'' [[Albanians]], ''36%'' [[Serbs]]
* [[Vucitrn]] District: ''90%'' [[Albanians]], ''10%'' [[Serbs]]
* Ferizovic ([[Urosevac]]) District: ''70%'' [[Albanians]], ''30%'' [[Serbs]]
* Gilani ([[Gnjilane]]) District: ''75%'' [[Albanians]], ''23%'' [[Serbs]]
* [[Mitrovica]] District: ''60%'' [[Serbs]], ''40%'' [[Albanians]]

Metohija with the town of [[Djakovica]] is furthermore defined as almost exclusively [[Albanians|Albanian]] by Weigand.

The population composition changed a lot in the 20th century. [[Expulsion]] of Albanians took place continuously, according to an ill-famous document, prepared by the [[Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts]] leading member, [[Vaso Čubrilović]], in the document called "Iseljavanje Arnauta" (from Serbian "Expulsion of Arnauts")[http://www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf].

== Serbia and Yugoslavia ==
=== Balkan Wars and World War I-World War II ===
Retaking of Kosovo by [[Serbia]] in [[1912]] resulting in suppression of the local Albanian
population and ethnic cleansing of some regions<ref>[http://vmro.150m.com/en/carnegie/ Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. (1914). Report of the International Commission To Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars. Washington: The Carnegie Endowment.]</ref>.

* [[1921]] a total of 439,010 inhabitants {{citation needed}} whereof 280,440 (64.1%)<ref name=Vickers>Vickers, Miranda. ''Between Serb and Albanian - A History of Kosovo''. New York: Columbia University Press, 1998 (quoting the official publications of the results of the 1921 and 1931 censuses in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes / the Kingdom of Yugoslavia)</ref> [[Albanians]]
A map of the Serbian census of 1921[http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/macedonia/maps/macmap_055.jpg *] shows that most of the terrirory was settled by Albanians, with Serbian enclaves around [[Prizren]], [[Sredska Zupa]] and [[Pristina]]. Religion on the largest part of the territory was [[Islam]] with [[Eastern Orthodoxy|Eastern Orthodox]] enclaves around [[Kosovska Mitrovica]], [[Pristina]] and [[Gnjilane]]<ref>Zec, Stevan, "Maps of our dividings political atlas of Yugoslav countries in XX century", Beograd : Beogradsko mašinsko-grafičko preduzeće, 1991.</ref>.

* [[1931]] 552,064 total inhabitants{{citation needed}} whereof 347,213 (62.8%) <ref name=Vickers/> [[Albanians]]

Colonisation programmes were implemented by the Serbian authorities in the periods between [[1922]] and [[1929]], and [[1933]] and [[1938]] leading to the settlement of some 10,000 Serbian families, mostly in northern Kosovo, [[Kosovo Polje]] and along the [[Lab River]].<ref name=Vickers/>

An agreement on the emigration of some 200,000 Albanians and Turks was signed with the [[Turkey|Republic of Turkey]] in 1938. As Turkey pulled out of the agreement at an early stage for fear of not being able to accommodate the immigrants, only 4,000 Muslims left the province.<ref name=Vickers/>

However, The [[Kingdom of Yugoslavia|Yugoslav]] authorities conducted a census on the region of [[Kosovo]] - estimating 125,000 Albanians in [[1939]].
{{citation needed}}

=== World War II-1968 ===
Most of the teritorry of today's province is occupied by [[History of Italy|Italian-controlled]] [[Greater Albania]], massacres of some 10,000{{citation needed}}[[Serbs]], [[ethnic cleansing]] of about 80<ref name=Krizman/> to 100,000<ref name=Krizman/> or more<ref name=Istorija/> (including all of the colonists<ref name=Vickers/><ref name=Istorija/>) and settling of 100,000<ref name=Krizman/> of [[Albanians]] from [[Albania]].

*[[1948]]: 727,820<ref name=CCJ/>-733,000<ref name=Politika/> total inhabitants; 498,242 [[Albanians]] (''68.46%'')<ref name=censa>Official Yugoslav censa results 1948-1981</ref>; 171,911 [[Serbs]] (''23.6%''); 28,050 [[Montenegrins]] (''3.9%'')
*[[1953]]: 524,559 [[Albanians]] (''65%'')<ref name=censa/>; 189,869 [[Serbs]] (''23.5%''); 31,343 [[Montenegrins]] (''3.9%'')
*[[1961]]: 646,604 [[Albanians]] (''67.1%'')<ref name=Annexe/>; 227,016 [[Serbs]] (''23.5''); 37,588 [[Montenegrins]] (''3.9%''); 5,206 [[Yugoslavs]] (''0,1%'')

=== 1968-1989: Autonomy ===
After the province gained autonomy, local provincial Statistical office given authority over census whereas the rest of the country's census was under the tutelage of the Federal Statistical Commission. Allegations of census rigging (for the 1971 and 1981) by [[Turkic peoples|Turk]], [[Muslims by nationality|Muslim]] and [[Roma people|Roma]] minorities who claim forceful [[Albanization]]{{citation needed}}. Serb claims Albanians drastically overincreased their own numbers. Nothing could be substantiated though because the Kosovo Statistical offices were under exclusive Albanian control which was against the national norm at the time which dicated that census takers had to be of different nationalities (i.e. one Albanian and one Serb not both Albanian as was the case in the two following censa).

[[1971]]:
1,243,693 total inhabitants<ref name=CCJ/>
* 916,168 [[Albanians]] or 73.7%<ref name=CCJ/>
* 228,264 [[Serbs]] (''18.4%'')
* 31,555 [[Montenegrins]] (''2.5%'')
* 26,000 [[Slavic Muslims]] (''2.1%'')
* 14,593 [[Roma people|Roma]]s (''1.2%'')
* 12,244 [[Turkish people|Turks]] (''1.0%'')
* 8,000 [[Croats]] (''0.7%'')
* 920 [[Yugoslavs]] (''0.1%'')

Albanians take ever-increasing control of Autonomous province with the introduction of the [[1974]] [[Constitution of SFRY]].

*[[1981]]: 1,584,558<ref name=Politika/> total inhabitants
* 1,226,736 [[Albanians]] (''77.42%'')
* 209,498 [[Serbs]] (''13.2%'')
* 27,028 [[Montenegrins]] (''1.7%'')
* 2,676 [[Yugoslavs]] (''0.2%'')

=== [[1989]]-[[1999]]: Centralized Yugoslav Control ===
[[Image:Kosovo ethnic.png|thumb|right|Ethnic map of Kosovo]]
Yugoslav Central Government reasserts control over Kosovo in [[1989]].

Official Yugoslav statistical results, almost all Albanians and some Roma, [[Muslims by nationality|Muslims]] boyott the census following a call by [[Ibrahim Rugova]] to boycott [[Serbia]]n institutions.
[[1991]]
359,346 total population
* 194,190 [[Serbs]] (''10%'')
* 20,365 [[Montenegrins]] (''1%'')
* 9,091 [[Albanians]] (most boycotted)
* 57,758 [[Muslims by nationality|Muslims]]
* 44,307 [[Roma people|Roma]]s
* 10,445 [[Turkish people|Turks]]
* 8,062 [[Croats]] ([[Janjevci]], Letnicani)
* 3,457 [[Yugoslavs]]

Official Yugoslav statistical corrections and projections, with the help of previous census results (1948-1981):

1,956,196 Total population{{ref|censa3}}
* 1,596,072 [[Albanians]] (''81,6%'')
* 194,190 [[Serbs]] (''10%'')
* 20,365 [[Montenegrins]] (''1%'')
* 66,189 [[Muslims by nationality|Muslims]]
* 45,745 [[Roma people|Roma]]s
* 10,445 [[Turkish people|Turks]]
* 8,062 [[Croats]] (Janjevci, Letnicani)
* 3,457 [[Yugoslavs]]

The corrections should not taken to be fully accurate. The number of Albanians is sometimes regarded as being an underestimate. On the other hand, it is sometimes regarded as an overestimate, being derived from earlier censa which are believed to be overestimates. The Statistical Office of Kosovo states that the quality of the 1991 census is "questionable." [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_population.pdf].

In September [[1993]], the Bosniak parlament returned their historical name ''[[Bosniaks]]'', during the regime of communist Yugoslavia, made as a compromise between a Moslem Communist leader [[Hamdija Pozderac]] and the Serbian communists. Some Kosovar Muslims have started using this term to refer to themselves since.

==== 1995 Hivzi Islami's estimate ====
In the year of 1995, Dr. Hivzi Islami of the [[Prishtina]] Demographic Department for Kosovo conducted an unofficial census estimate for Kosova. There was a total of around 2,200,000 Kosovar inhabitants according to the department:
:* [[Albanians]] - around 1,960,000 (''89.9%''); 1,360,000 without the diaspora
:* [[Serbs]] - around 140,000 (''6.3%'')
:* [[Muslims]] - around 40,000 (''1.9%'')
:* [[Roma people|Roma]] - around 40,000 (''1.9%'')
:* [[Turkish people|Turks]] - around 8,000 (''0.3%'')
:* [[Montenegrins]] - around 7,000 (''0.3%'')
:* ''others'' - around 5,000 (''0.2%'')

The same department counted in the list of all Albanian diaspora that had the [[Yugoslavs|Yugoslav]] [[citizenship]] - a list of around 500,000 ethnic [[Albanians]] with Yugoslav citizenship living abroad:
:* about 200,000 in [[Germany]]
:* about 150,000 in [[Switzerland]]
:* around 40,000 in [[Croatia]]
:* about 35,000 in [[Sweden]]
:* around 30,000 in [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]]
:* around 25,000 in [[Albania]]
:* about 23,000 in [[Austria]]
:* around 15,000 in [[Slovenia]]
:* about 8,000 in [[Belgium]]
:* about 5,000 in [[France]]
:* about 5,000 in [[Denmark]]
:* about 4,000 in [[Italy]]
:* about 4,000 in [[Norway]]
:* around 2,500 in [[Great Britain]]
:* about 2,000 in the [[Netherlands]]
:* about 600 in [[Finland]]
:* about 200 in [[Luxembourg]]

==== Refugees in the second half of 1998 ====
Just before the [[13 October]] [[1998]], [[UNHCR]] estimated that there were around 200,000 misplaced people in Kosovo in the civil war that already engulphed half of the province. Of that, some 120,000 were displaced abroad (forming ''80%'' of FRJ's displaced diaspora):
* 62,000 to the rest of the [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]
:* 20,000 to [[Serbia]]
:* 42,000 to [[Montenegro]]
* 20,000 to [[Albania]]
* a total of 38,000 to [[Western Europe]]
* 10,000 to [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]]
* some to [[Croatia]] and [[Hungary]]

==== 1998 Federal Secretariat of Information ====
In 1998 the Federal Secretariat of Information in Belgrade estimated a pre-term population census for the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija listing around 1,378,980 citizens:
* 917,000 [[Albanians]]
* 221,000 [[Serbs]]
* 97,000 [[Roma people|Romas]]
* 72,500 [[Muslims]]
* 23,000 [[Montenegrins]]
* 21,000 [[Turkish people|Turks]]
* 3,500 ''[[Yugoslavs]]''
* 980 [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]]
* 23,000 ''others''

==== Kosovo War refugees ====
The total list of countries to which the refugees refuged and in what numbers:
* [[Montenegro]] - 61,900
* [[Serbia]] - 60,000

abroad:
* [[Albania]] - 405,000
* [[Republic of Macedonia|Macedonia]] - 197,000
* [[Bosnia]] - 17,000

other countries to which Kosovars refuged:
* [[Germany]] - 9,974
* [[Turkey]] - 6,259
* [[Norway]] - 2,476
* [[France]] - 2,354
* [[Austria]] - 1,455
* [[Belgium]] - 1,205
* [[United Kingdom]] - 330

=== 1999-present: UN administration ===
During the [[Kosovo War]] in 1999, over 700,000 ethnic Albanians<ref>[[BBC]]: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/336728.stm]</ref> and around 100,000 ethnic Serbs were forced out of the province to neighbouring Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia. After the [[United Nations]] took over administration of Kosovo following the war, the vast majority of the Albanian refugees returned.

Many non-Albanians - chiefly Serbs and Roma - fled or were expelled, mostly to the rest of Serbia at the end of the war, with further refugee outflows occurring as the result of sporadic ethnic violence. The number of registered refugees is around 250,000<ref>[[UNHCR]]: 2002 Annual Statistical Report: Serbia and Montenegro, pg. 9</ref>. The non-Albanian population in Kosovo is now about half of its pre-war total. The largest concentration of Serbs in the province is in the north, but many remain in [[Kosovo Serb enclaves]] surrounded by Albanian-populated areas.
Also, according to [[Republic of Macedonia|Macedonian]] and [[Serbia]]n sources, the [[Gorani (Kosovo)|Gorani]] people, living on the south-most tip of the Kosovo are systematically oppressed and denied their minority rights <ref>http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=1981</ref><ref>http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-gora/index.php</ref>.

A large number of Albanians have moved into Kosovo since 1999, due to the complete liberalization of the Kosovo-Albania border. The veracity of this claim is unclear; the Statistical Office of Kosovo states that "there are at present no reliable statistics on migration in Kosovo."{{citation needed}}

The [[2000]] Living Standard Measurement Survey by Statistical Office of Kosovo (rejected by Belgrade<ref>People's Daily: [http://english.people.com.cn/english/200007/21/eng20000721_46066.html Belgrade to Reject Results of U.N.-Conducted Census in Kosovo]</ref>): Total population estimated between 1,8 and 2,0 million, however, it was boycotted largely by non-Albanians.<ref>''Living Standard Measurement Survey 2000'', Statistical Office of Kosovo - see also ''[http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Kosovo_population.pdf Kosovo and its Population]''</ref>
* 88% [[Albanians]] (between 1,584,000 and 1,733,600)
* 7% [[Serbs]] (between 126,000 and 140,000)
* 3% [[Muslims by nationality|Muslims]] and [[Bosniaks]] (54 to 60 thousand)
* 2% [[Roma people|Roma]] (36 to 40 thousand)
* 1% [[Turkish people|Turks]] (18 to 20 thousand)

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates the population at 2.0 to 2.2 million people, extrapolating from voter registration data recorded by the UNMIK Department of Local Administration in 2000. [http://www.sok-kosovo.org/pdf/population/Basic%20Demographic%20Data%20for%20Kosovo.pdf]

Some estimates by Albanian demographers estimate a population of 2.4 million Albanians living in Kosovo today. This is regarded by most independent observers as an overestimate as it would imply a total population of some 2.5-2.6 million people in Kosovo, much higher than other estimates.

== See also ==
:* [[Albanians in Kosovo]]
:* [[Albanians]]
:* [[Serbs in Kosovo]]
:* [[Serbians]]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:History of Kosovo]]

User talk:Asterion/Archive 13

2006-06-09T22:29:28Z

C-c-c-c: Surprise....hehe

== '''Please read this before posting''' ==

* Please '''continue any conversation where it was started'''.
:Thus if I have left '''a message on your talk page''' please '''DO NOT post a reply here'''.
:I will have your talk page on watch and will note when you have replied.
* If you want to initiate a conversation, please '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Asterion&action=edit&section=new create a new heading]'''.
:Continue existing conversations under existing headings.
* Indent your comments when replying by using an '''appropriate number of colons''' ':'.
* Automatically '''sign your comments''' using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>.

----

{| class="infobox" width="270px"
|-
!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]] [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
----
|-
|
# [[User_talk:Asterion/Archive 1|September 2005]]
# [[User_talk:Asterion/Archive 2|October 2005 - March 2006]]
# [[User_talk:Asterion/Archive 3|April 2006]]
# [[User_talk:Asterion/Archive 4|May 2006]]
# 
#
|}

== Gibraltar, San Roque and Algeciras ==

Ok you are right. But we should not fall for the same tendentious editing which is so characteristic of Gibnews and Gibraltarian.--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 20:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
:Yes, I know. That is why Gibnews keep dropping pills about how untrustworthy Spanish people are. He is simply trying to provoke me in that sense but it is not going to happen. I have made some mistakes in the past but after 3000 edits you learn the lesson well. I have no patience with people who think they [[WP:OWN|own]] articles and generally get tired about relatively soon (I would rather use my time somewhere else). Also, please make no mistake I have no problem with people from Gibraltar at all, one of my flatmates while I was at university in England was a Gibraltarian and I really used to enjoy the fact of being able to code-switch with him in front of everyone else as if it was the most natural thing in the world. I have problems with the attitude of other users such as Ismael76, this is why I have ignored his comments somewhere else. Salud y saludos, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 20:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok it is true, although Ismael76 has not engaged in edit wars for some time and I suspect he does not take the issue all that seriously. By what i have seen from the history of the Gibraltar page, Gibnews is not allowing any form of editing on the article. He seems to have an even greater hostility/paranoia towards Spain and Spaniards in general than Gibraltarian-yanito. Why was the latter banned? I cannot imagine someone behaving worse than Gibnews does...--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 10:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:I am not completely sure of the reasons. I think it was because personal attacks and trollish behaviour. I think the guy just cracked up when confronted with verifiable sources that contradicted his POV, as presented by [[User:Ecemaml]] at the time, and took it upon himself to harrass him instead debating. I had abandoned wikipedia for some months last year because my discomfort with that very same situation you are describing: People thinking they own articles and totally controlling them as their pets (as Gibnews now does). This is the main problem of Wikipedia as I see it. People using it as a soapbox for their own propagandistic goals. I had experienced the same problem with other subjects (i.e. [[Kosovo]]). Sometimes is like banging your head against the wall, I think. If anything, we could ask for an independent opinion on this issue (a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment|Request for Comments]]). Thanks, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 12:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

::I think we should do just that. Although I dont know if it would work since all past disputes relating to Gibraltar seem to have died down since editors have desisted arguing with Gibnews.
Independent opinions would have to look at the whole discussion page. I have looked at it recently and it basically consists of Gibnews imposing his will on a number of other editors relating to many issues. Some of them are as silly as whether the disputed tag should be included on the article...(Gibnews thought it shouldnt even though his version was disputed by all other users)
Who was in control of the Kosovo page? Was it a pro-serb or pro-albanian POV individual?--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 13:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Acabo de ver la nota que le dejaste a woohookitty. Me parece muy bien. Otro ejemplo bueno sería [[MV Aurora]]. Con esta al final acabo cediendo un poco pero volvió a cambiarla al poco rato. La verdad es que me cansé. Al fin y al cabo se trata de una página oscura e insignificante, pero demuestra nuestro caso de que Gibnews siempre tiene que tener la última palabra. Respecto a Kosovo, la mayoria de los problemas era con albaneses. Intenté mediar en el asunto pero hay mucha mala sangre de por medio. Uno de ellos, el más cuco, intentaba ir de neutral siempre que el resultado le conviniera, poniendo pegas a descripciones como "Kosovo es una provincia de Serbia y Montenegro bajo administración de la ONU", cambiandola a "una entidad en el oeste de los balcanes bajo administracion de la ONU" y chuminadas por el estilo (ademas de querer borrar toda la seccion de historia pre-1945, a la Gibraltarian). Luego hay otro que ademas apenas habla inglés ni nada, pero con una cierta predilección por el uso de sockpuppets. Al final, con el lio del referendum en Montenegro uno de ellos se aprovechó para borrar toda referencia a Serbia y Montengro del artículo y montó la marimorena después de mosquear a los serbios que hasta entonces nunca habían puesto pegas (incluyendo un tal Bormalagurski que creo que ya conoces que hasta entonces era bastante civilizado). El caso es que en cuanto me cabreé del todo y les dije ahí os quedáis, la cosa fue de mal en peor y ahora la página está protegida y todo. Es lo que pasa con gente que se cree que son los dueños de las páginas. Es que no se enteran que esto es una enciclopedia no un panfleto político. Bueno volviendo a Gibnews, una de las maneras de darse cuenta de esto es usando Interiot Tool 2 y fijándose en "Average edits/page" y "Distinct pages edited", que en el caso de Gibnews es 10.015 y 66 respectivamente. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']]

::::Hola chicos, la verdad es que estoy full-time con la wikipedia en español y voy a poder ayudar poco. En cualquier caso, os recomiendo que habléis con [[User:Woohookitty]], que es bibliotecario y está familiarizado con el asunto para que tome medidas. Yo os sugeriría que buscaseis una mediación y, posteriormente, un arbitraje. Por cierto, el caso de Gibraltarian está en [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Gibraltarian]]. Gibnews es igualmente cerril y antiespañol, pero, aparentemente, un poco más educado. Usa las fuentes cuando quiere y cuando no le gustan dice que son proespañolas. Os puedo echar una mano con fuentes británicas, si necesitáis, pero no puedo hacer nada más. Lo siento. --[[User:Ecemaml|Ecemaml]] 13:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Gracias, Ecemaml. Estoy de acuerdo contigo, Gibnews es bastante más cuco pero es igual de cerril como tu dices. A ver que nos comenta woohookitty. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Pues nada escribimos en Español. Pues sí menudo pájaro el Boris ese. Parece uno de esos que fueron a vitorear en la boda de Arkan y Ceca.
El Gibnews es un radical. Tiene un odio a España que no se de donde le viene...
--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 22:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

:Hombre, ya que ecemaml empezó... Por cierto, tu inglés es muy bueno. A Gibnews no sé de donde le viene el odio. Entiendo lo de la verja pero por Dios de eso hace más de 20 años y al fin y al cabo ellos la construyeron. [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 23:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== Question ==
What personal attack specifically are you referring to? The "moron" comment has been resolved. [[User:Ricardo Lagos|Ricardo Lagos]] 00:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:Solved? You still called him "intelectually impaired"![[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 00:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:: Ah, but you see, he had written Richard Lagos instead of Ricardo Lagos. The "intelectually impaired" comment was not a personal attack, but a fact. Best regards, [[User:Ricardo Lagos|Ricardo Lagos]] 01:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I still think you ought to apologise to him. I understand that you are a relatively new user and everybody makes mistakes. I wish you learn from errors and become a good member of the wikipedia community. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 01:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

== template and 3RR ==
Thanks for reporting. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 10:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
:Simply self-revert and problem solved ;-)[[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 11:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

no further comment. [[User:Ilir pz|ilir_pz]] 11:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

==User Pantherarosa==
Hi, you said you wanted other admins to voice their opinions in the matter on WP:AN/I. However, given the length of the discussion, I feel that many are skipping over it. I've now had to relist it as it was auto-archived. Therefore, since you are the only one who has been an involved third-party, would you be able to take the action you feel fit against Patherarosa's onslaught of perosnal attacks? [[User:Paul Cyr|Paul Cyr]] 18:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
:Paul, I am sorry but I am not an admin. Did you also ask for a checkuser? Is he behind the user who vandalised your page? Do you want me to re-list this? (I guess that is all I could do). Thanks, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 19:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
::Oh sorry, I misunderstood a previous discussion and thought you were an admin. The RfCU is a bit backed up so I've been waiting patiently. In the mean time I'm trying to get Pantherarosa's actions dealt with.

== Bonaparte etc ==

I am affraid that some vandals will just keep popping up everywhere, and that we have to deal with them when they show up. If we are sure it is a single IP it can be blocked, but many of them just go to other places and we can not just block ever IP for that. What you can hope is that they give up in time if they see there is no way of edditwarring their opinion into wikipedia. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] [[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]] 18:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

==Re:Zastava problems==

You stopped by my discussion page and said there was sumtin wrong with ur Zastava. I'm not really an expert with maintanance, but after one changes the batteries and oil I don't know what would be wrong either. Note that it will be a challenge repairing it in the UK becuase they only sell Zastavas in the balkans these days... Sorry I couldn't help

-'''[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]]''' {{flagicon|Serbia}}

Re:

I don't actually have a Zastava but my cousin owns a Zastava Koral, 2004 model. So far in its ownership the car has been surprisingly reliable, only 1 repair ever made so far (repaired brakes).

-'''[[user:Zastavafan76|Zastavafan76]]''' {{flagicon|Serbia}}

== Link ==

We try to keep the number of external links down (see [[Wikipedia:External links]]; as this was a link to a site in Swedish, it's surely not indispensable to an article in the English-language Wikipedia. --[[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|Μελ Ετητης]]) 21:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:Good point; I imagine that most of the others should go too, unless they're there as sources of information given in the article. I removed this one because it had been added in the last twenty-four hours or so, so showed up in the diff that I used. --[[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|Μελ Ετητης]]) 21:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Ah, a Babel fish — one of the the things that I most often wish for when editing Wikipedia. --[[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|Μελ Ετητης]]) 22:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I certainly didn't want to suggest that the link wasn't to a relevant and good-quality site; it's just that, in light of our policy of restricting the number of links, and the fact that a very small minority of our readers are likely to be able to understand the article, it seemed a prime candidate for removal. --[[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|Μελ Ετητης]]) 22:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== Kosovo Vote ==
Dear Asterion, I have had contact with [[User:Ilir pz]] and he has agreed to have a vote on the introduction of the [[Kosovo]] article (and the [[Template: Kosovo]] description. The exact terms still have to be agreed, but I suggested (and he agreed) that any introduction should at least include the following: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia, SCG or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. If this is ok with you, do you think you and [[User: Osli73]] (if he still is interested in editing this article) can come up with a version of the introduction to the article in a couple of days to include in the vote? Any other comments are ofcourse also more then welcome. Let me know your opinion on this matter, best regards [[User:Reinoutr|Cpt. Morgan]] 23:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Asterion,
I would be glad to help you with a proposal for the Kosovo introduction text. Do you have a first draft, any ideas for a text?
[[User:Osli73|Osli73]] 20:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==User Batman2005==
Hi again, I was wondering if you could voice your opinion in another personal attack case here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Personal_attacks_by_user_Batman2005_and_bad-faith_edits_by_Moe_Epsilon] basically Batman2005 is linking things like douche and loser to people he doesn't like. [[User:Paul Cyr|Paul Cyr]] 05:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
::Note that these people are not Wikipedia editors and it doesn't violate NPA. [[User:Moe Epsilon|The King]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|of Kings]] 05:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Also note that this is what Moe Epsilon's thinks the policy implies. I'm sure Asterion has read the first line that says do not make personal attacks anywhere. And Moe, the only way you would know that I posted on Asterion's talk page is if you were tracking my contribs. Are you wikistalking me? :D *blushes* [[User:Paul Cyr|Paul Cyr]] 05:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Regarding Batman2005, I believe indeed that some of his comments could be understood as personal attacks, particularly [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Miniskirts&diff=56754942&oldid=56752490 this one] (even if it was directed to an obvious sockpuppet who had vandalised Batman2005's userpage). On the userpage matter, I am personally against anything divisive or what could be understood as offensive by any member of wikipedia or from elsewhere. The way I see it is that at the end of the day, we are all working here towards writing an encyclopedia and this sort of things do not help much. This is not a political forum. The problem is that policy in this area is still very unclear, as it is in the userbox issue, and many users would object to any sort of official control. Nevertheless, I suspect Batman2005 was trying to make a point on being controversial and has also shown a certain disrespect for wikipedia policies (i.e. "I got blocked once, for a [[No_personal_attacks|bullshit reason]]"). I am sorry if my opinion is not very clear. Regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

== Vandals translating vandalism ==

Hi: On the bormalagurski talk page, the vandalism you reverted was actually somebody's translation of what Dzoni wrote (not my translation, I don't know who did it). Interesting dilemma, thought you might like to know. [[User:Tanager|Tanager]] 01:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:Well, I cannot speak Serbo-Croatian but given that the admin who then took care of the case is originally from Croatia, he possibly thought it was vandalism too (the user that got blocked has a long history behind anyway). I will point this out to him. Thanks very much! [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 06:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==WesternSahara-stub==
I've initiated a vote at [[Template talk:WesternSahara-stub]] - hopefully that will give some indication of what to do with the icon for this template. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]'' 00:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

==Reply KLA==

The link I removed once was a rambling from a non-expert that had provided no proof for his accusations, not even the name of the senior "official". [[User:CJK|CJK]] 00:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:The article was verifiable as for Wikipedia own rules. Nevertheless, alternative valid sources have been found and provided. Best regards, [[User:Asterion/Esperanza|'''''E ''''']][[User:Asterion|'''Asterion''']] [[User talk:Asterion|'''u talking to me?''']] 21:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

==Barnstar for you Asterion==

{{award2|image=Barnstar-rotating.gif|size=100px|topic=The Tireless Contributor Barnstar|text=I award you this Barnstar for your many, and many great contributions to Wikipedia. In the face of adversity you have shown great strength in dealing with sockpuppets, meatpuppets and Wiki-stalkers alike, and not mention have maintained a tirelss NPOV battle with nationalist users on every and any side. You'll be a great admin in no time. Cheers:) [[User:C-c-c-c|C-c-c-c]] 22:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC) }}