Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:Cpzphantom

2007-04-14T16:29:51Z

Cpzphantom: /* Stop posting unconstructive edits */

{{unblock reviewed|1=I already read the image policy, and I want to be unblocked, the images that were posted were in reality in a public domain and as long as I understand, this ones are allowed, it's confirmed that images are for free use under any part of the web, but it isn't cleared yet if the license is the public domain one or the GFDL, unblock me to give the links and see it for yourself.|decline=Took a look. Images such as [[:Image:Flywaylogo.JPG]], just to pick one example, are '''most definitely''' not in the public domain or licensed under the GFDL. Are you perhaps referring to other images? I was unable to find any images you have uploaded that were indeed public domain but I only looked at about half of your uploads. — [[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)}}

==American Dragon: Jake Long==
Please refrain from adding fan site links and fan forums. These are not allowed due to the guidelines of [[WP:EL]]. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 14:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
:Please stop adding these links. They are not allowed on Wikipedia. Please take the time to read [[WP:EL]]. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 22:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
::Your edits are considered as vandalism. Vandalism is looked down upon here. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 06:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
==Image tagging for Image:Copa.jpg==
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Copa.jpg]]'''. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
* [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]

This is an automated notice by [[User:OrphanBot|OrphanBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. 15:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] [[Wikipedia:Introduction|Welcome]] to Wikipedia. Please do not remove [[Wikipedia:Speedy deletions|speedy deletion]] tags from articles that you have created yourself{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, as you did with [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. If you do not believe the article deserves to be deleted, then please place {{[[Template:hangon|hangon]]}} on the page (please do not remove any existing speedy deletion tag) and make your case on the article's {{#if:{{{1|}}}|[[Talk:{{{1}}}|talk page]]|talk page}}. Administrators will look at your reasoning before deciding what to do with the article. {{{2|Thank you.}}} [[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']] [[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']] 18:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
==Image tagging for Image:Tocumen english.JPG==
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Tocumen english.JPG]]'''. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
* [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]

This is an automated notice by [[User:OrphanBot|OrphanBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. 04:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

==Copa Airlines Destinations==

There shouldn't be an article posted within an aritcle! There should be a link to the subarticle, and if necessary a brief paragraph, but there is no need for the whole list of destinations to be in the articles itself! [[User:201.240.89.134|201.240.89.134]] 04:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

==Re-uploading images==

Please don't re-upload those airline images. You need to prove that they were either released under a free license such as the GFDL, or that they constitute [[Fair use]] in the article. Simply being used for publicity purposes by the company website is not enough. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== American Airlines Images ==

Please do not remove every single image but one on the page. Images are there for a reason, and I did revert your edits. Please do NOT do it again.--[[User:Golich17|Golich17]] 17:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Sockpuppetry and image copyright violations ==

Cpzphantom, you have evidently tried to evade my warning about images, by uploading the same images again ([[:Image:Cpaco..jpg]], [[:Image:Webair.gif]], [[:Image:Englishlogway.JPG]]) under a sockpuppet account {{user|Chazzprincetone}}. This is unacceptable. I told you these images can't be used, and why. I'm now blocking both you and the sock indefinitely. This doesn't mean you won't be allowed to edit ever again; I'm just not setting a fixed expiry date. You can be unblocked any time as soon as you give evidence that you've read and understood and accepted our image policies. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 14:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

== Image Policies==
I already read the image policy, and I want to be unblocked, the images that were posted were in reality in a public domain and as long as I understand, this ones are allowed, it's confirmed that images are for free use under any part of the web, but it isn't cleared yet if the license is the public domain one or the GFDL, unblock me to give the links and see it for yourself.

== Future Perfect Image copyright exam ==

Okay. I'm afraid I concur with Yamla; what you write shows you still misunderstand our copyright policies severely, so, much as I appreciate your enthusiasm to contribute here, I'm afraid it won't be safe to let you loose on the project. You can get yourself unblocked if you demonstrate you've made progress with the policies, by passing the following simple little exam.

Here's a list of links to 20 random images uploaded by other users on Wikipedia. Please check these images, and indicate whether you think each of them is okay in copyright terms (correctly used, correctly tagged, correctly sourced, etc.) When giving your judgment, make sure you refer to the relevant portions of the image policies, and especially make sure you understand the difference between "free images", "public domain" images, and "fair use" images. So, here goes. Take as much time as you want. Then just write one or two sentences on each image. If your answers are reasonable, you'll be awarded the "Future Perfect Certified Image Uploader Award" and be unblocked. Good luck, [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

;Random images to check, uploaded on day 20061214
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121422{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 1]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121421{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 2]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121420{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 3]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121419{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 4]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121418{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 5]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121417{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 6]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121416{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 7]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121415{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 8]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121414{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 9]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121413{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 10]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121410{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 11]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121409{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 12]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121408{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 13]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121407{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 14]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121406{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 15]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121405{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 16]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121404{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 17]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121403{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 18]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121402{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 19]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121401{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 20]

== Future Perfect Image copyright exam answer ==

Image 1: contains a low res picture, and is under fair use licenses which allow low res images on wikipedia legaly, the image has all of it's complements.
:missing rationale, no check of plausible fair use (but probably okay)

Image 2: contains a hi-res image, however, the uploader owns the image and all of it's rights are established under it's terms and the GNU ones as well.

: no comment on derivative status, otherwise okay
Image 3: contains a hi-res image, however, the uploader owns the image and all of it's rights are established under it's terms and the GNU ones as well, also, the uploader allows it's release in public domain, except if it is prohibited by the law.

: obvious (probably even ineligible for copyright; lack of creative component)

Image 4: It does not have any tags and is in hi-res, possibly indicating the user never selected a license, this image has, however, been used on several articles, thought is unclear if the image may be deleted or not, it's poorly informed and should be deleted.
: correct, this one is problematic because it's unsourced

Image 5: Hi-res image under a book cover fair use tag, however, the image tag says low res images only and the picture is hi res so the tag should be changed or remove the image.
: arguably correct in marking the hi-res problem

Image 6:hi res image with low ilumination (web-resolution), it is under screenshots tag so it qualifies as fair as long as the user don't uploads several images. should be leaved until user infinges the screenshot tags laws.
: missing rationale, used for mere decoration

Image 7: Hi res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
7 - more problematic than the resolution is the missing rationale

Image 8: the image is hi-res, however, it can be used to any action the user wants under the terms of Gnu free documentation license tag.
: no source, probably copyrighted. You didn't comment on the question of whether it's plausible the uploader is really the creator. This looks like a painting by somebody else, so it would be a copyvio.

Image 9: HI RES image, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible, I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law, The image should be leaved.
:Yep, no problem.

Image 10: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
:No problem.

Image 11: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
:No problem.

Image 12: Hi res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: not really particularly high-res. But missing rationale.

Image 13: hi res image, it is under screenshots tag so it qualifies as fair as long as the user don't uploads several images, however, the screenshot is in hi-res, no web-res which infringes the terms. should be deleted.
: More important is missing rationale

Image 14: Hi-res image, which can be used to any purpose according to GNU free documentation license, should be leaved.

: same problem as number 8. Probably bad.

Image 15: This image is hi-res, but the user owns the image and can be used under all it's terms, except if They're prohibited by the law, should be leaved.
: no problem, plausibly self-made

Image 16: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
: no problem

Image 17: web-res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: it's pretty low-res, actually, so that shouldn't be a problem. And it even has a fair use rationale.

Image 18: This image is a work of a U.S. Air Force Airman or employee, taken or made during the course of the person's official duties. As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is in the public domain, should be leaved.

: correct, PD-USGov

Image 19:web-res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: correct to point out high-res problem with this one. But in addition, it doesn't really look like an album cover. And lacks fair-use rationale.

Image 20: Hi-res photo cover, it's owned by the company but the user apparently owns one of their official products, possibly proving ownership of them, should be disscussed.
: no rationale, not clear whether it was really ''released'' as promotional.

I hope this is the way you wanted the answers to be written, I finished all the questions with all the image terms guidances and normal terms as well as the image tags terms.

:Please note that I am reviewing the answers now. Will comment as soon as I am finished. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:'''None''' of these responses seem to match up with the images listed above. Cpzphantom, can you please confirm that the following image pairs are the same:
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214220500&limit=1 Image 1] and [[:Image:Godwilling.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214180500&limit=1 Image 5] and [[:Image:Dpmovie.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214130500&limit=1 Image 10] and [[:Image:Sano 18.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214060500&limit=1 Image 15] and [[:Image:Peter R Coneway.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214010500&limit=1 Image 20] and [[:Image:Wretchedspawn-alt.jpg]].
Also, please check that the images I am listing here are the images you are commenting on above. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

;Response by Fut.Perf.

Okay, thanks for taking the trouble of actually doing this "exam". (And thanks to Yamla for helping with the "marking") - I feel evil now for having set this task, it seems to have been quite difficult. As you see above, I'd actually given quite a few answers differently. You concentrated very much on this issue of high-res versus low-res, but there were really quite a few other "hidden" problems. Yeah, I know, this task was really mean in a way.

Anyway, in recognition of your efforts I'm unblocking you, but I'd still recommend that you should remain ''very cautious'' with making further image uploads. Unless you are very certain about the legitimacy of an image, and if you have any doubts at all, it might be better to ask an experienced user first before you make an upload.

Best, --[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

When did I become unblocked?

:Sorry, still one of those [[Wikipedia:Autoblock]]s around that I overlooked. I lifted it now. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

==error==

No they weren't, I clicked the first link that says image no 1 and then it took me to a windows and I clicked the button go, then 20 links to the images appeared.

:Okay, I'm confused. I am not sure which images you were commenting on. :( Hopefully the other admin can help out a bit here. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 21:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I clicked the button "Go" on the page top and then, it loaded 20 images.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121422{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 1]

:Oh, okay. I'll review when I get some time. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 21:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

== Blocked again ==

I hate to say it, Cpz, but the three new images you uploaded since your first block were all three again bad:

*[[:Special:Undelete/Image:Copawebshot.JPG|Copawebshot.JPG]]
*[[:Special:Undelete/:Image:Image003 (1).jpg|Image003 (1).jpg]]
*[[:Special:Undelete/:Image:ScreenShot002.JPG|ScreenShot002.JPG]]

This means that you evidently still haven't understood some crucial elements of our image policies. So, I have no other option than to block you again. This is again a (formally) indefinite block, which can be lifted as soon as you meet either of two conditions: Either:
# promise solemnly that in future you will '''refrain from uploading any further images''' without prior consultation with an admin in each case; or
# pass another '''"copyright exam"''', by explaining here on your talk page what exactly was wrong about the three images above. But I'll want a much more precise and correct answer than the last time.

[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 12:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I labeled all images with their corresponding tag, colocated info and everything that I read, but I could missed something when reading the policy. Anyways, I'll explain you everything I expected to do.

Image 1: image 1 was a web screenshot from an official website, I tagged it under the web pages screenshots tag, I gave info, a brief description and the source, the resolution could be too high to be web resolution, I didn't distingished this one too well. the res could be the fault.

Image 2: image 2 was on a website which aproves use of GFDL tags, which I used to label the image, don't exactly know wheres the fault, if someone know about it, can then tell me where's the fault?

Image 3: this image was licensed under GFDL, I don't remember the tag too well, I could have been misunderstood that tag with another one, it was hi-res, if there's a problem then inform me.

I shall give a re-read to the terms and see if I understood anything.

:Image 1: A screenshot of a web page means the ''whole'' web page. You can't just take an element from the web page and use it under that license. Anyway, you ''weren't'' using it under those terms, you were using it under the terms of the GFDL. You provide no reason to believe that this company licenses their logo under the GFDL and I know of no such company which has done so.

:Image 2: You provide no reason to believe this website licenses their content under the GFDL. The website itself does not indicate this and it would be absolutely stunning for them to do so.

:Image 3: Once again, please read the license. It specifically states, "'''This tag is not appropriate for images and media found on websites; it should be used for screenshots of websites only.'''" You are claiming this license for an image found on a website which the license text clearly indicates is not appropriate. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 18:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can, could you please correct the errors. I think I misunderstood the images, since I uploaded them when I was ill.

Image 1 was suppossed to be a screenshot, but since I colocated GFDL instead and know that internet screenshots are suppossed to be full web page ones can you please change it to a fair use, I said that the images could be used freely for only certain purposes that aren't commercial, is there a right tag to these kind of uses, could you please give me the name.

Image 2 and 3: don't know exactly if GFDL or fair use but they said, for non- commercial use only if there's a tag for non-commercial uses only.

:Number 1 could conceivably be used under {{tl|Commercial logo}} (fair use). "Non-commercial use only" is generally forbidden - but even so, the websites didn't even give a non-commercial permission anyway. Numbers 2 and 3 are definitely not GFDL, and they would be "fair use" only if, well, they were [[Fair use]]. Which they aren't, and that's something to do with ''what purpose'' you were using them for. Besides, even if they were "fair use", they'd be {{tl|replaceable fair use}} and as such also forbidden. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything understood, I shall use logos under the Fair use, commercial logo tag, if that is, be sure to indicate me.

Image 2 and 3, I was using them as references, but I have ones that I tooked by myself on real life ocassions and are fully of my property, but i didn't uploaded them yet, if you want, feel free to delete them now that I'm clear. I also have images from other photographers, they will give me the permission to post them if I ask them if I can do so, this time, I'll put direct links to the permissions granting form.

:Self-taken images will be very welcome, you can use {{tl|GFDL-self}} for those. Images by others will be okay if the photographers explicitly agree to license them ''under the GFDL'' or an equivalent license. You need to make sure they understand that means ''anybody'' can re-use them ''for any purpose''. If they just tell you you can use them "on Wikipedia" or "for non-commercial purposes", that's not enough. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I should upload the images under it's correct tag this time. did the fair use works with images?
[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 00:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand, I should have tagged the images wrong, but is my block permanent?[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 04:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

:I can unblock you if you promise you will not upload any images '''except self-taken ones''' (i.e. taken with your own camera in real life), or images where you provide '''proof that the photographer himself has explicitly licensed them under GFDL'''. Do not upload any other images under any other type of license ("fair use" or whatever). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But, what about logos?

:Nope. Just don't go anywhere near "fair use" things. As long as we are not certain you understand them. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but what if I want to upload a logo like in the AA article [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 23:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
:Just don't do it. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Ok. but I'm still feling a bit strange about this. [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 04:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== Cpzphantom's contributions to the article "Copa Airlines" ==

I want to comment on Cpzphantom's contributions to the article called "Copa Airlines". This user has continously posted erroneous information that diminishes the quality of the article. In order to clarify the situation, and to prevent this user to continue posting information that is wrong, I would like to contribute the following:

1. The parent company of Copa Airlines and AeroRepublica is Copa Holdings, S.A. not Copa Holdings, Inc. This company is traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol CPA.

2. Copa Airlines flies to 36 destinations in 21 countries (all of the company's press releases reveal this information).

3. Copa Airlines currently DOES NOT fly to Montego Bay, Jamaica.

4. Copa Airlines currently DOES NOT fly to Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago.

4. Copa Airlines '''does not have and has never had''' a codeshare agreement with Iberia. In fact, its codeshare agreement with Continental Airlines does not include European destinations.

5. Copa Airlines does not have Boeing 737-200's in its fleet since 2005, the year when the last of these aircraft was sold. It does not operate 4 of these aircraft as cargo aircraft. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] ([[User talk:Schonbrunn|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Schonbrunn|contribs]]) 00:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

== Response to your comments on my edits to Copa Airlines ==

''Cpzphantom, it seems to me that you have not understood that the point of this whole site is to provide information on different topics with the same type of credibility as an encyclopedia. Here are a few comments in italics on what you posted on my user talk. I'm reproducing here what you posted on my user talk with a few comments:
''

Well I see, however, some of your edits are also wrong as well.

First of all, Copa Airlines is one of American Airlines main enemies so that is true, also, American is in a hard ccompetition with copa airlines, so this facts are all accurate
''This is an opinion, not a fact. What do you mean by hard competition? Fleet size? Destinations? Passengers? ''

also, codeshare flights are counted as destinations so in total, they are 38 destinations.
''There you go again. Please, check Copa's press releases and you will find that they do not include codeshare flights as destinations. Codeshare flights to Newark and Houston are operated by Continental with Continental's aircraft.''

Copa also offers red eye flights since I flew to JFK departing in 10:30 to 12:45 so those flights are real indeed.
''Technically, Red-Eye flights operate from 9:30 PM to 5:00 AM, local time. Copa Airlines flights to JFK and LAX depart Panama around 7:30 PM and arrive at their destinations around 12:00-1:00 AM (given the time differences). They do not qualify as red-eye's. If you flew to JFK departing at 10:30 to 12:45, then you did not fly Copa!''

And finally, Copa is indeed one of the most advanced airlines around the world so erasing this is incorrect.
''Once again, opinion''

I do not have a problem with you contributing. Just make sure to get your facts straight before posting wrong information. [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] 00:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

== Response to Cpzphantom's comments on my edits to Copa Airlines (II) ==

Cpzphantom,

1. ''Actually in terms of service, performance and technology'' This is still an opinion!

2. ''I think I saw a photo of Copa Airlines aircraft in houston, possibly only on hi demands situations?''. Are you familiar with codeshare flights? They allow airlines to operate routes by using another carrier. If Copa operated only on hi demand situations, what would be the point of having the codeshare? Once again, check the company's press releases and count all the other destinations and you will see that they add up to 36.

3. ''did red eye flights only are valid with the departing hour and the arriving hour and not only one of the two?'' Red eye flights technically begin at 9:30PM and arrive at their destination around 5:00AM. None of Copa's flights qualifies technically as a red eye.

4. ''actually, that's from the website itself.'' What do you think, that marketing people are not going to use that kind of subjective language? —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] ([[User talk:Schonbrunn|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Schonbrunn|contribs]]) 00:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

== Please try to be accurate ==

Copa might have the youngest fleet in the "region" but it doesn't necessarily make them one of the most advanced airlines around the world.

Having the same (or even better if you like) service, performance & technology than American Airlines doesn't make it a rival or "enemy". My contributions included Grupo Taca and Avianca as rivals because they serve basically the same market and have contiguous hubs.(San Jose-Costa Rica / Panama-Panama / Bogota-Colombia) and actually are considered as direct rivals by the company.

Copa's aircrafts never fly to Houston, not even in high demand situations, that flight is just a codeshare and it's uniquely operated by Continental, Copa has no permission to operate it.

About destinantions: Here's the summary attached to every Copa Holdings press release:
''Copa Holdings, through its Copa Airlines and AeroRepublica operating subsidiaries, is a leading Latin American provider of passenger and cargo service. '''Copa Airlines currently offers approximately 110 daily scheduled flights to 36 destinations in 21 countries in North, Central and South America and the Caribbean. In addition, Copa Airlines provides passengers with access to flights to more than 120 other international destinations through codeshare agreements with Continental Airlines and other airlines.''' AeroRepublica, the second-largest domestic carrier in Colombia, provides service to 12 cities in Colombia as well as international connectivity with Copa Airlines' Hub of the Americas through daily flights from Bogota, Cali and Medellin.''

So, Codeshares are not included as destinations.

Please try to post accurate contributions. Thanks.

--[[User:Metalclaus|Metalclaus]] 14:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

== Blocked again, for good now ==

{{stop}}
Wow. You did it again. I should have watched you more closely after the last unblock. But I didn't expect you'd break your promises that quickly.
*[[:Image:Copawebmap2D.JPG]], claimed to be own work, but obviously taken from same source as earlier versions of the same picture.
*[[:Image:031017g.jpg]], claimed to be own work, copyvio from: [http://www.myboeing.com/news/releases/2003/photorelease/q4/031017g.gif]
*[[:Image:Copacentenario.JPG]], claimed to be own work, almost certainly also a copyvio (taken from a mid-air perspective a normal person could never take a photo from)
*[[:Image:Copasnow.JPG]]: No source found, but probably similar case as the ones above
*[[:Image:Copaairshots3.JPG]]: Uploaded as fair use, after explicit promise not to mess with any fair-use images again ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cpzphantom&diff=113176898&oldid=113081661]).

That's it. You broke your unblocking conditions, for the second time; you again lied about copyright tags, you committed yet more copyright violations. I'm blocking you indefinitely as a serial copyright offender, and no conditional unblock offer this time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I cannot see the Copyvio of the image, sure the link is OK? [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 19:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

:Stop the hypocrisy. You know better than myself where you got those images from. Well, I corrected that link for you. You stole the image from the boeing website. You will remain blocked. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the link only directs me to the image but I already found the copyvio, so all the problem was of that image?

:Of the five images above, the three first are proven copyvios, the fourth is an almost certain copyvio. That's the problem. Plus, ever since you were blocked you have been block-evading through anon IPs, making unconstructive POV edits, edit-warring about them, and you've shown you are a [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|Single-purpose account]] with an agenda of promoting Copa airlines. Probably you have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interests]], being some sort of employee of Copa. Your edits have been rejected as unhelpful by several editors, but you have stubbornly edit-warred to inject your POV additions. That's enough to keep you blocked. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm from Simairlines.net

== Stop posting unconstructive edits ==

Your username has already been banned, the pages that you edited using anonymous IP's have been blocked, yet you continue to post unconstructive edits with no value in similar sites (such as the Copa Holdings, S.A. site). Give up already.--[[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] 02:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not all are unconstructive, did you even investigated better? [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 02:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

<blockquote>
Nobody cares what you have or not investigated. You have already plagued these sited with incorrect information (like adding that there was a codeshare with Iberia when there was never one) and your "facts" do not add value to the site. Plus, you have already been banned and your English is not very good. If you care so much for the information you should stop trying to force your useless edits--[[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] 02:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC).
</blockquote>

You are the one of the useless edits, see your talk page and the links in copa airlines article discussion, you'll find that your edits are wrong then. [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 16:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Cpzphantom

2007-04-14T16:29:36Z

Cpzphantom: /* Stop posting unconstructive edits */

User talk:Cpzphantom

2007-04-13T02:29:47Z

Cpzphantom: /* Stop posting unconstructive edits */

User talk:Cpzphantom

2007-04-13T02:29:24Z

Cpzphantom: /* Stop posting unconstructive edits */

{{unblock reviewed|1=I already read the image policy, and I want to be unblocked, the images that were posted were in reality in a public domain and as long as I understand, this ones are allowed, it's confirmed that images are for free use under any part of the web, but it isn't cleared yet if the license is the public domain one or the GFDL, unblock me to give the links and see it for yourself.|decline=Took a look. Images such as [[:Image:Flywaylogo.JPG]], just to pick one example, are '''most definitely''' not in the public domain or licensed under the GFDL. Are you perhaps referring to other images? I was unable to find any images you have uploaded that were indeed public domain but I only looked at about half of your uploads. — [[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)}}

==American Dragon: Jake Long==
Please refrain from adding fan site links and fan forums. These are not allowed due to the guidelines of [[WP:EL]]. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 14:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
:Please stop adding these links. They are not allowed on Wikipedia. Please take the time to read [[WP:EL]]. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 22:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
::Your edits are considered as vandalism. Vandalism is looked down upon here. [[User:TrackFan|TrackFan]] 06:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
==Image tagging for Image:Copa.jpg==
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Copa.jpg]]'''. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
* [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]

This is an automated notice by [[User:OrphanBot|OrphanBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. 15:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] [[Wikipedia:Introduction|Welcome]] to Wikipedia. Please do not remove [[Wikipedia:Speedy deletions|speedy deletion]] tags from articles that you have created yourself{{#if:{{{1|}}}|, as you did with [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. If you do not believe the article deserves to be deleted, then please place {{[[Template:hangon|hangon]]}} on the page (please do not remove any existing speedy deletion tag) and make your case on the article's {{#if:{{{1|}}}|[[Talk:{{{1}}}|talk page]]|talk page}}. Administrators will look at your reasoning before deciding what to do with the article. {{{2|Thank you.}}} [[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']] [[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']] 18:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
==Image tagging for Image:Tocumen english.JPG==
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Tocumen english.JPG]]'''. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
* [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]

This is an automated notice by [[User:OrphanBot|OrphanBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. 04:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

==Copa Airlines Destinations==

There shouldn't be an article posted within an aritcle! There should be a link to the subarticle, and if necessary a brief paragraph, but there is no need for the whole list of destinations to be in the articles itself! [[User:201.240.89.134|201.240.89.134]] 04:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

==Re-uploading images==

Please don't re-upload those airline images. You need to prove that they were either released under a free license such as the GFDL, or that they constitute [[Fair use]] in the article. Simply being used for publicity purposes by the company website is not enough. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== American Airlines Images ==

Please do not remove every single image but one on the page. Images are there for a reason, and I did revert your edits. Please do NOT do it again.--[[User:Golich17|Golich17]] 17:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Sockpuppetry and image copyright violations ==

Cpzphantom, you have evidently tried to evade my warning about images, by uploading the same images again ([[:Image:Cpaco..jpg]], [[:Image:Webair.gif]], [[:Image:Englishlogway.JPG]]) under a sockpuppet account {{user|Chazzprincetone}}. This is unacceptable. I told you these images can't be used, and why. I'm now blocking both you and the sock indefinitely. This doesn't mean you won't be allowed to edit ever again; I'm just not setting a fixed expiry date. You can be unblocked any time as soon as you give evidence that you've read and understood and accepted our image policies. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 14:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

== Image Policies==
I already read the image policy, and I want to be unblocked, the images that were posted were in reality in a public domain and as long as I understand, this ones are allowed, it's confirmed that images are for free use under any part of the web, but it isn't cleared yet if the license is the public domain one or the GFDL, unblock me to give the links and see it for yourself.

== Future Perfect Image copyright exam ==

Okay. I'm afraid I concur with Yamla; what you write shows you still misunderstand our copyright policies severely, so, much as I appreciate your enthusiasm to contribute here, I'm afraid it won't be safe to let you loose on the project. You can get yourself unblocked if you demonstrate you've made progress with the policies, by passing the following simple little exam.

Here's a list of links to 20 random images uploaded by other users on Wikipedia. Please check these images, and indicate whether you think each of them is okay in copyright terms (correctly used, correctly tagged, correctly sourced, etc.) When giving your judgment, make sure you refer to the relevant portions of the image policies, and especially make sure you understand the difference between "free images", "public domain" images, and "fair use" images. So, here goes. Take as much time as you want. Then just write one or two sentences on each image. If your answers are reasonable, you'll be awarded the "Future Perfect Certified Image Uploader Award" and be unblocked. Good luck, [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

;Random images to check, uploaded on day 20061214
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121422{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 1]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121421{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 2]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121420{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 3]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121419{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 4]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121418{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 5]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121417{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 6]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121416{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 7]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121415{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 8]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121414{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 9]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121413{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 10]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121410{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 11]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121409{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 12]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121408{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 13]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121407{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 14]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121406{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 15]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121405{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 16]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121404{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 17]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121403{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 18]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121402{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 19]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121401{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 20]

== Future Perfect Image copyright exam answer ==

Image 1: contains a low res picture, and is under fair use licenses which allow low res images on wikipedia legaly, the image has all of it's complements.
:missing rationale, no check of plausible fair use (but probably okay)

Image 2: contains a hi-res image, however, the uploader owns the image and all of it's rights are established under it's terms and the GNU ones as well.

: no comment on derivative status, otherwise okay
Image 3: contains a hi-res image, however, the uploader owns the image and all of it's rights are established under it's terms and the GNU ones as well, also, the uploader allows it's release in public domain, except if it is prohibited by the law.

: obvious (probably even ineligible for copyright; lack of creative component)

Image 4: It does not have any tags and is in hi-res, possibly indicating the user never selected a license, this image has, however, been used on several articles, thought is unclear if the image may be deleted or not, it's poorly informed and should be deleted.
: correct, this one is problematic because it's unsourced

Image 5: Hi-res image under a book cover fair use tag, however, the image tag says low res images only and the picture is hi res so the tag should be changed or remove the image.
: arguably correct in marking the hi-res problem

Image 6:hi res image with low ilumination (web-resolution), it is under screenshots tag so it qualifies as fair as long as the user don't uploads several images. should be leaved until user infinges the screenshot tags laws.
: missing rationale, used for mere decoration

Image 7: Hi res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
7 - more problematic than the resolution is the missing rationale

Image 8: the image is hi-res, however, it can be used to any action the user wants under the terms of Gnu free documentation license tag.
: no source, probably copyrighted. You didn't comment on the question of whether it's plausible the uploader is really the creator. This looks like a painting by somebody else, so it would be a copyvio.

Image 9: HI RES image, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible, I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law, The image should be leaved.
:Yep, no problem.

Image 10: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
:No problem.

Image 11: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
:No problem.

Image 12: Hi res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: not really particularly high-res. But missing rationale.

Image 13: hi res image, it is under screenshots tag so it qualifies as fair as long as the user don't uploads several images, however, the screenshot is in hi-res, no web-res which infringes the terms. should be deleted.
: More important is missing rationale

Image 14: Hi-res image, which can be used to any purpose according to GNU free documentation license, should be leaved.

: same problem as number 8. Probably bad.

Image 15: This image is hi-res, but the user owns the image and can be used under all it's terms, except if They're prohibited by the law, should be leaved.
: no problem, plausibly self-made

Image 16: hi res image, the author release the image in this public domain under the terms of the GNU and creative commons license any other use not listed is copyright infringement.
: no problem

Image 17: web-res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: it's pretty low-res, actually, so that shouldn't be a problem. And it even has a fair use rationale.

Image 18: This image is a work of a U.S. Air Force Airman or employee, taken or made during the course of the person's official duties. As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is in the public domain, should be leaved.

: correct, PD-USGov

Image 19:web-res screenshot of an audio cover, it infringe the law cause it isn't low res like the tag specifies it must be to be fair use.
: correct to point out high-res problem with this one. But in addition, it doesn't really look like an album cover. And lacks fair-use rationale.

Image 20: Hi-res photo cover, it's owned by the company but the user apparently owns one of their official products, possibly proving ownership of them, should be disscussed.
: no rationale, not clear whether it was really ''released'' as promotional.

I hope this is the way you wanted the answers to be written, I finished all the questions with all the image terms guidances and normal terms as well as the image tags terms.

:Please note that I am reviewing the answers now. Will comment as soon as I am finished. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

:'''None''' of these responses seem to match up with the images listed above. Cpzphantom, can you please confirm that the following image pairs are the same:
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214220500&limit=1 Image 1] and [[:Image:Godwilling.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214180500&limit=1 Image 5] and [[:Image:Dpmovie.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214130500&limit=1 Image 10] and [[:Image:Sano 18.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214060500&limit=1 Image 15] and [[:Image:Peter R Coneway.jpg]].
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=20061214010500&limit=1 Image 20] and [[:Image:Wretchedspawn-alt.jpg]].
Also, please check that the images I am listing here are the images you are commenting on above. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 20:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

;Response by Fut.Perf.

Okay, thanks for taking the trouble of actually doing this "exam". (And thanks to Yamla for helping with the "marking") - I feel evil now for having set this task, it seems to have been quite difficult. As you see above, I'd actually given quite a few answers differently. You concentrated very much on this issue of high-res versus low-res, but there were really quite a few other "hidden" problems. Yeah, I know, this task was really mean in a way.

Anyway, in recognition of your efforts I'm unblocking you, but I'd still recommend that you should remain ''very cautious'' with making further image uploads. Unless you are very certain about the legitimacy of an image, and if you have any doubts at all, it might be better to ask an experienced user first before you make an upload.

Best, --[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

When did I become unblocked?

:Sorry, still one of those [[Wikipedia:Autoblock]]s around that I overlooked. I lifted it now. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

==error==

No they weren't, I clicked the first link that says image no 1 and then it took me to a windows and I clicked the button go, then 20 links to the images appeared.

:Okay, I'm confused. I am not sure which images you were commenting on. :( Hopefully the other admin can help out a bit here. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 21:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I clicked the button "Go" on the page top and then, it loaded 20 images.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Imagelist&offset=2006121422{{#if:05|05|00}}00&limit=1 Random image 1]

:Oh, okay. I'll review when I get some time. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 21:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

== Blocked again ==

I hate to say it, Cpz, but the three new images you uploaded since your first block were all three again bad:

*[[:Special:Undelete/Image:Copawebshot.JPG|Copawebshot.JPG]]
*[[:Special:Undelete/:Image:Image003 (1).jpg|Image003 (1).jpg]]
*[[:Special:Undelete/:Image:ScreenShot002.JPG|ScreenShot002.JPG]]

This means that you evidently still haven't understood some crucial elements of our image policies. So, I have no other option than to block you again. This is again a (formally) indefinite block, which can be lifted as soon as you meet either of two conditions: Either:
# promise solemnly that in future you will '''refrain from uploading any further images''' without prior consultation with an admin in each case; or
# pass another '''"copyright exam"''', by explaining here on your talk page what exactly was wrong about the three images above. But I'll want a much more precise and correct answer than the last time.

[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 12:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I labeled all images with their corresponding tag, colocated info and everything that I read, but I could missed something when reading the policy. Anyways, I'll explain you everything I expected to do.

Image 1: image 1 was a web screenshot from an official website, I tagged it under the web pages screenshots tag, I gave info, a brief description and the source, the resolution could be too high to be web resolution, I didn't distingished this one too well. the res could be the fault.

Image 2: image 2 was on a website which aproves use of GFDL tags, which I used to label the image, don't exactly know wheres the fault, if someone know about it, can then tell me where's the fault?

Image 3: this image was licensed under GFDL, I don't remember the tag too well, I could have been misunderstood that tag with another one, it was hi-res, if there's a problem then inform me.

I shall give a re-read to the terms and see if I understood anything.

:Image 1: A screenshot of a web page means the ''whole'' web page. You can't just take an element from the web page and use it under that license. Anyway, you ''weren't'' using it under those terms, you were using it under the terms of the GFDL. You provide no reason to believe that this company licenses their logo under the GFDL and I know of no such company which has done so.

:Image 2: You provide no reason to believe this website licenses their content under the GFDL. The website itself does not indicate this and it would be absolutely stunning for them to do so.

:Image 3: Once again, please read the license. It specifically states, "'''This tag is not appropriate for images and media found on websites; it should be used for screenshots of websites only.'''" You are claiming this license for an image found on a website which the license text clearly indicates is not appropriate. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 18:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can, could you please correct the errors. I think I misunderstood the images, since I uploaded them when I was ill.

Image 1 was suppossed to be a screenshot, but since I colocated GFDL instead and know that internet screenshots are suppossed to be full web page ones can you please change it to a fair use, I said that the images could be used freely for only certain purposes that aren't commercial, is there a right tag to these kind of uses, could you please give me the name.

Image 2 and 3: don't know exactly if GFDL or fair use but they said, for non- commercial use only if there's a tag for non-commercial uses only.

:Number 1 could conceivably be used under {{tl|Commercial logo}} (fair use). "Non-commercial use only" is generally forbidden - but even so, the websites didn't even give a non-commercial permission anyway. Numbers 2 and 3 are definitely not GFDL, and they would be "fair use" only if, well, they were [[Fair use]]. Which they aren't, and that's something to do with ''what purpose'' you were using them for. Besides, even if they were "fair use", they'd be {{tl|replaceable fair use}} and as such also forbidden. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything understood, I shall use logos under the Fair use, commercial logo tag, if that is, be sure to indicate me.

Image 2 and 3, I was using them as references, but I have ones that I tooked by myself on real life ocassions and are fully of my property, but i didn't uploaded them yet, if you want, feel free to delete them now that I'm clear. I also have images from other photographers, they will give me the permission to post them if I ask them if I can do so, this time, I'll put direct links to the permissions granting form.

:Self-taken images will be very welcome, you can use {{tl|GFDL-self}} for those. Images by others will be okay if the photographers explicitly agree to license them ''under the GFDL'' or an equivalent license. You need to make sure they understand that means ''anybody'' can re-use them ''for any purpose''. If they just tell you you can use them "on Wikipedia" or "for non-commercial purposes", that's not enough. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I should upload the images under it's correct tag this time. did the fair use works with images?
[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 00:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand, I should have tagged the images wrong, but is my block permanent?[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 04:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

:I can unblock you if you promise you will not upload any images '''except self-taken ones''' (i.e. taken with your own camera in real life), or images where you provide '''proof that the photographer himself has explicitly licensed them under GFDL'''. Do not upload any other images under any other type of license ("fair use" or whatever). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But, what about logos?

:Nope. Just don't go anywhere near "fair use" things. As long as we are not certain you understand them. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but what if I want to upload a logo like in the AA article [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 23:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
:Just don't do it. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Ok. but I'm still feling a bit strange about this. [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 04:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== Cpzphantom's contributions to the article "Copa Airlines" ==

I want to comment on Cpzphantom's contributions to the article called "Copa Airlines". This user has continously posted erroneous information that diminishes the quality of the article. In order to clarify the situation, and to prevent this user to continue posting information that is wrong, I would like to contribute the following:

1. The parent company of Copa Airlines and AeroRepublica is Copa Holdings, S.A. not Copa Holdings, Inc. This company is traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol CPA.

2. Copa Airlines flies to 36 destinations in 21 countries (all of the company's press releases reveal this information).

3. Copa Airlines currently DOES NOT fly to Montego Bay, Jamaica.

4. Copa Airlines currently DOES NOT fly to Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago.

4. Copa Airlines '''does not have and has never had''' a codeshare agreement with Iberia. In fact, its codeshare agreement with Continental Airlines does not include European destinations.

5. Copa Airlines does not have Boeing 737-200's in its fleet since 2005, the year when the last of these aircraft was sold. It does not operate 4 of these aircraft as cargo aircraft. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] ([[User talk:Schonbrunn|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Schonbrunn|contribs]]) 00:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

== Response to your comments on my edits to Copa Airlines ==

''Cpzphantom, it seems to me that you have not understood that the point of this whole site is to provide information on different topics with the same type of credibility as an encyclopedia. Here are a few comments in italics on what you posted on my user talk. I'm reproducing here what you posted on my user talk with a few comments:
''

Well I see, however, some of your edits are also wrong as well.

First of all, Copa Airlines is one of American Airlines main enemies so that is true, also, American is in a hard ccompetition with copa airlines, so this facts are all accurate
''This is an opinion, not a fact. What do you mean by hard competition? Fleet size? Destinations? Passengers? ''

also, codeshare flights are counted as destinations so in total, they are 38 destinations.
''There you go again. Please, check Copa's press releases and you will find that they do not include codeshare flights as destinations. Codeshare flights to Newark and Houston are operated by Continental with Continental's aircraft.''

Copa also offers red eye flights since I flew to JFK departing in 10:30 to 12:45 so those flights are real indeed.
''Technically, Red-Eye flights operate from 9:30 PM to 5:00 AM, local time. Copa Airlines flights to JFK and LAX depart Panama around 7:30 PM and arrive at their destinations around 12:00-1:00 AM (given the time differences). They do not qualify as red-eye's. If you flew to JFK departing at 10:30 to 12:45, then you did not fly Copa!''

And finally, Copa is indeed one of the most advanced airlines around the world so erasing this is incorrect.
''Once again, opinion''

I do not have a problem with you contributing. Just make sure to get your facts straight before posting wrong information. [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] 00:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

== Response to Cpzphantom's comments on my edits to Copa Airlines (II) ==

Cpzphantom,

1. ''Actually in terms of service, performance and technology'' This is still an opinion!

2. ''I think I saw a photo of Copa Airlines aircraft in houston, possibly only on hi demands situations?''. Are you familiar with codeshare flights? They allow airlines to operate routes by using another carrier. If Copa operated only on hi demand situations, what would be the point of having the codeshare? Once again, check the company's press releases and count all the other destinations and you will see that they add up to 36.

3. ''did red eye flights only are valid with the departing hour and the arriving hour and not only one of the two?'' Red eye flights technically begin at 9:30PM and arrive at their destination around 5:00AM. None of Copa's flights qualifies technically as a red eye.

4. ''actually, that's from the website itself.'' What do you think, that marketing people are not going to use that kind of subjective language? —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] ([[User talk:Schonbrunn|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Schonbrunn|contribs]]) 00:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

== Please try to be accurate ==

Copa might have the youngest fleet in the "region" but it doesn't necessarily make them one of the most advanced airlines around the world.

Having the same (or even better if you like) service, performance & technology than American Airlines doesn't make it a rival or "enemy". My contributions included Grupo Taca and Avianca as rivals because they serve basically the same market and have contiguous hubs.(San Jose-Costa Rica / Panama-Panama / Bogota-Colombia) and actually are considered as direct rivals by the company.

Copa's aircrafts never fly to Houston, not even in high demand situations, that flight is just a codeshare and it's uniquely operated by Continental, Copa has no permission to operate it.

About destinantions: Here's the summary attached to every Copa Holdings press release:
''Copa Holdings, through its Copa Airlines and AeroRepublica operating subsidiaries, is a leading Latin American provider of passenger and cargo service. '''Copa Airlines currently offers approximately 110 daily scheduled flights to 36 destinations in 21 countries in North, Central and South America and the Caribbean. In addition, Copa Airlines provides passengers with access to flights to more than 120 other international destinations through codeshare agreements with Continental Airlines and other airlines.''' AeroRepublica, the second-largest domestic carrier in Colombia, provides service to 12 cities in Colombia as well as international connectivity with Copa Airlines' Hub of the Americas through daily flights from Bogota, Cali and Medellin.''

So, Codeshares are not included as destinations.

Please try to post accurate contributions. Thanks.

--[[User:Metalclaus|Metalclaus]] 14:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

== Blocked again, for good now ==

{{stop}}
Wow. You did it again. I should have watched you more closely after the last unblock. But I didn't expect you'd break your promises that quickly.
*[[:Image:Copawebmap2D.JPG]], claimed to be own work, but obviously taken from same source as earlier versions of the same picture.
*[[:Image:031017g.jpg]], claimed to be own work, copyvio from: [http://www.myboeing.com/news/releases/2003/photorelease/q4/031017g.gif]
*[[:Image:Copacentenario.JPG]], claimed to be own work, almost certainly also a copyvio (taken from a mid-air perspective a normal person could never take a photo from)
*[[:Image:Copasnow.JPG]]: No source found, but probably similar case as the ones above
*[[:Image:Copaairshots3.JPG]]: Uploaded as fair use, after explicit promise not to mess with any fair-use images again ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cpzphantom&diff=113176898&oldid=113081661]).

That's it. You broke your unblocking conditions, for the second time; you again lied about copyright tags, you committed yet more copyright violations. I'm blocking you indefinitely as a serial copyright offender, and no conditional unblock offer this time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I cannot see the Copyvio of the image, sure the link is OK? [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 19:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

:Stop the hypocrisy. You know better than myself where you got those images from. Well, I corrected that link for you. You stole the image from the boeing website. You will remain blocked. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the link only directs me to the image but I already found the copyvio, so all the problem was of that image?

:Of the five images above, the three first are proven copyvios, the fourth is an almost certain copyvio. That's the problem. Plus, ever since you were blocked you have been block-evading through anon IPs, making unconstructive POV edits, edit-warring about them, and you've shown you are a [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|Single-purpose account]] with an agenda of promoting Copa airlines. Probably you have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interests]], being some sort of employee of Copa. Your edits have been rejected as unhelpful by several editors, but you have stubbornly edit-warred to inject your POV additions. That's enough to keep you blocked. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm from Simairlines.net

== Stop posting unconstructive edits ==

Your username has already been banned, the pages that you edited using anonymous IP's have been blocked, yet you continue to post unconstructive edits with no value in similar sites (such as the Copa Holdings, S.A. site). Give up already.--[[User:Schonbrunn|Schonbrunn]] 02:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not all are unconstructive, did you even invested better? [[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 02:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Cpzphantom

2007-04-10T21:54:58Z

Cpzphantom: /* Blocked again, for good now */

2007-03-21T18:38:57Z

Cpzphantom: /* Embraer 190AR */

{{Infobox_Airline |
airline = Copa Airlines |
logo = Copaairshots3.JPG |
logo_size = 176px |
fleet_size = 30 (+ 17 ordered)|
destinations = 36 |
IATA = CM |
ICAO = CMP |
callsign = COPA |
parent = [[Copa Holdings, S.A.]]|
founded = 1944|
headquarters = [[Panama City]], [[Panama]] |
key_people = [[Pedro Heilbron]] ([[Chief executive officer|CEO]]) [[Victor Vial]] ([[Chief Financial Officer|CFO]]) |
hubs = [[Tocumen International Airport]]|
frequent_flyer = [[OnePass]] |
lounge = [[Presidents Club]] |
alliance = [[Skyteam]] |
website = [http://www.Copaair.com Copaair.com]|
}}

'''Copa Airlines''' is the award-winning, national [[flag carrier]] of [[Panama]], operating services to [[North America]], [[Central America]], [[South America]] and [[The Caribbean]]. It is headquartered in [[Panama City, Panama|Panama City]] and has its hub at [[Tocumen International Airport]].

Its main rivals are [[American Airlines]], [[Grupo Taca]] and [[Avianca]], Copa Airlines earned this reputation thanks to its on-time performance and modern avionics, some examples of them could be [[VSD]] displays, All Glass Cockpits and Blended Winglets technology on all its aircraft, it is also one of the few airlines in having direct competition with American Airlines, the world's largest airline.

__TOC__

== History ==

===Inauguration===

The airline was established as ''Compañia Panameña de Aviacion'' on [[21 June]] [[1944]] and started operations on [[5 May]] [[1947]]. It was founded with assistance from [[Pan American World Airways|Pan American]], which took a 32% stake. It began operations with a small fleet of [[Douglas DC-3]] and [[C-47 Skytrain|Douglas C-47]] aircraft. The airline saw its first international service in the [[1960s]], when services were inaugurated to cities in [[Jamaica]], [[Colombia]], and [[Costa Rica]]. It became wholly Panamanian owned in [[1972]].

Until the early [[1980s]], the airline had stiff competition from [[Air Panama]], until then a better known airline to the international public. Copa heightened the competition by acquiring its first jet, a [[Boeing 737|Boeing 737-100]], and inaugurating flights to [[Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport]] in [[San Juan, Puerto Rico]], as well as to the [[Dominican Republic]] and [[Miami, Florida]]. The 737 became a staple of the Copa fleet and, until the introduction of the [[Embraer 190]] in 2005, was the only aircraft in its fleet.

[[Image:031017g.jpg|thumb|225px|left||A Copa Airlines Boeing 737-800 ready for takeoff.]]

=== Expansion Years ===

Expansion continued during the [[1990s]], when Copa's 737s began to be sighted at [[Ministro Pistarini International Airport]] in [[Buenos Aires]], [[Argentina]], [[Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport|Benitez International Airport]] in [[Santiago, Chile]], [[José Martí International Airport]] in [[Havana, Cuba]], [[Jorge Chávez International Airport]] in [[Lima, Peru]], [[Benito Juárez International Airport]] in [[Mexico City, Mexico]] and many other [[Latin America]]n airports.

On 19 May 1998, [[Continental Airlines]] acquired a 49% stake in the airline, marking the beginning of a comprehensive marketing and operating alliance. Since then, it has adopted a livery and corporate logo which resemble those of Continental, and participates in Continental's OnePass [[frequent flyer program]]. However, as Copa became a publicly owned company in 2005, Continental's stake in the company has been reduced to approximately 10%.

[[Image:Copacentenario.JPG‎|thumb|250px|right|Copa Airlines Centenario Livery.]]

In [[2000]], Copa inaugurated services to [[Los Angeles, California|Los Angeles]], Cancun, Mexico, and [[Orlando, Florida|Orlando]], as well as to [[São Paulo]], [[Brazil]]. In [[2004]] it began service to [[John F. Kennedy International Airport]] in [[New York City]], and announced, in August of that year, a code-sharing alliance with [[Mexico]]'s [[Mexicana de Aviacion]].

=== The Acquisition of AeroRepública ===

On [[June 1]], [[2005]], Copa announced that it had purchased 90% of the [[Colombia]]n domestic air carrier [[AeroRepública]], having earlier announced plans to [[codeshare]] with them. The airline also announced its plans to make [[AeroRepública]] the second largest carrier in Colombia after the nation's flag carrier, [[Avianca]]. It plans to increase domestic destinations, modernize its fleet, and initiate the airline's first international destinations in late 2005. A few days later it was announced among the four future associate members of [[Skyteam Alliance]], due to join by [[2006]].

On [[December 15]], [[2005]], Copa Holdings, the parent company of Copa Airlines, launched an IPO of 14 million shares in the [[New York Stock Exchange]] thus becoming the third Latin American airline to be traded in the exchange, the other two being [[LAN Airlines]] of Chile and the [[Brazil]]ian carrier [[Gol Transportes Aéreos|GOL]].

==2006 - A year of Great Expansion==

[[Image:Copawebmap2D.JPG‎|thumb|150px|A Copa Airlines Destinations Map.|right]]

In 2006 Copa Airlines announced six new destinations:

* [[Santiago de los Caballeros]], Dominican Republic

* [[Maracaibo]], Venezuela

* [[Rio de Janeiro]], Brazil

* [[Manaus]], Brazil

* [[San Pedro Sula]], Honduras

* [[Montevideo]], Uruguay

Apart from these great news, Copa received new aircraft including several new [[Embraer 190]] and several [[Boeing 737]]. Copa Airlines was chosen again in 2006 as one of '''"The 25 Best Airlines in Latin America"''' and the '''"Best Airline in Central America"''' by SKYTRAX magazine.
== Destinations ==

''Main article: [[Copa Airlines destinations]]''

Copa Airlines flies to 36 destinations in 21 countries in [[North America]], [[Central America]], [[South America]] and [[The Caribbean]], the airline, eventually, will be adding more destinations. It also operates two extra destinations via codeshare agreements with Continental Airlines.

== Avionics ==
Copa Airlines has incorporated modern avionics in all of its aircraft making its fleet one of the most advanced around the world, this avionics earned Copa Airlines its strong reputations on the market.

===Blended Winglet Technology===

Copa was the first airline in Latin America to operate Boeing 737-700s and 800s with “blended winglets” technology. Winglets increase flight efficiency and improve aircraft performance by reducing fuel consumption by 3.5 percent. In addition, “winglets” help the environment by reducing noise and pollution.

===VSD Technology===
Copa is the first airline in America to utilize Vertical Situation Display (VSD) and the Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning system in its entire fleet. These sophisticated tools give the pilot a clear view of the airplane’s flight path, calculating the altitude, speed and position and then sending the information in integrated, easy-to-interpret graphics.

===In-Flight Entertainment===
Copa’s aircrafts are equipped with modern on-board entertainment systems that offer passengers a variety of programming, including music, movies, news and other short programs.

===Embraer 190AR===
Copa Airlines has added two modern Embraer 190AR aircraft to its fleet. The EMB 190 is equipped with the latest advances in technology, such as winglets; efficient, powerful General Electric CF34-10E motors; and the latest in Honeywell Corporation aviation equipment. The addition of the EMB 190s to Copa’s fleet allows the airline to balance capacity and demand in smaller markets that are served more efficiently with a 94-seat aircraft.

Features:

· Maximum Speed: Mach 0.82 (1004.5 km/h)

· Reach: 2,200 nautical miles (4,074 km)

· Maximum altitude: 41,000 ft

· Wingspan: 36.24 m

· Cabin width: 2.74 m

· Cabin height: 2.00 m

· Fly-by-wire System

==Fleet==
The Copa Airlines fleet consists of the following aircraft as of February 2007:
<center>
{| class="toccolours sortable" border="1" cellpadding="1" style="border-collapse:collapse"
|+ '''Copa Airlines Fleet'''
|- bgcolor=blue
!Aircraft
!Total
!Passengers

|-
|[[Boeing 737-700]]
|20
|124
|-
|[[Boeing 737-800]]
|4
|155
|-
|[[Embraer 190]]
|6
|94
|}

</center>

== Alliances ==
[[Continental Airlines]] 
[[AeroRepublica]] 
[[GOL Linhas Aéreas Inteligentes]] 
[[Mexicana]] 

== External link ==
*[http://www.copaair.com/ Copa Airlines Website]
*[http://www.copaairlines.co.uk/ Copa Airlines UK Website]
 {{SkyTeam}}


[[Category:Airlines of Panama]]
[[Category:Airlines established in 1944]]
[[Category:Companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange]]
[[Category:Worldperks]]


[[de:Copa Airlines]]
[[es:Copa Airlines]]
[[fr:Copa Airlines]]
[[nl:Copa Airlines]]
[[ja:コパ航空]]
[[pt:Compañía Panameña de Aviación, S.A.]]
[[fi:Copa Airlines]]

Talk:Zuko

2007-03-21T02:22:04Z

Cpzphantom: /* Firbending Master */

{{FailedGA|2007-02-12}}
{{Nicktoon Character|class=B|importance=Mid}}
{{WPAVATAR
|class=B
|importance=Top}}
{{talkheader}}
{{archive box|*[[Talk:Zuko/Archive 1|Archive 1]]}}
== Scar ==

His scar may heal someday, as it is said that a scar lingers until the argument between the man who caused it and the man who owns it has been resolved. In other words until Zuko has claimed the throne.

:Umm...........WHO says this?--[[User:Darkling235|Darkling235]] 03:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:It's just speculation and theories, which are not fit for this page [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 05:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:The scar on his face will never heal. If is were going to, it would have already. ~Sayasha

:Not to mention that scars fade not heal because technically scar tissue is what's left over after a wound has ''already'' healed, thus making "healing a scar" an oxymoron. And, as Sayasha already said, if his scar was going to fade it would have long ago. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 10:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think his scar will ever be healed. It's a part of him now.

*It depends. Personally, I think Zuko's scar could be used as somthing symbolic in the show, as an example of him healing from the wounds of the past (I wrote an entire multi-chaptered fanfiction about this theory, so I've been working on it for a while). Now scars CAN heal. I've had scars that are there for a few years, but they gradually fade and disappear as the tissue mends. The thing is, Zuko's scar is so large (and likely, more than skin deep), that it wouldn't completely heal on its own. There IS a possibility, however, that if Zuko ever joins the gaang, Katara could heal the scar completely with Waterbending (though I imagine it would likely be on accident). Mind you that's just a theory, completely unconfirmed, but it's still a possibility.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
:*sigh* Read Raceberry's post above, he wasn't pulling the scar information out of his ass. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 03:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
::In fairness, though, when you have a character with pseudo-magical healing powers, who knows what might happen?--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 04:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
:::True, but all the "Katara healing Zuko's scar" stuff is just stuff Zutara fans use in their fan-fiction. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 15:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I put a lot of stuff in my fanfiction that I don't actually think will happen (healing scar, Suki is an Earthbender, ect.). It's just for the sake of making the story interesting. Lots of people do that, actually (since you're not really big on pairings, I guess you don't read a lot of fanfiction, so...). I don't think Katara will heal Zuko's scar, but it's a possibility...besides, there ARE places in the show where real-life rules are disregarded. And, as the "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" creators once defined the rules for making a good anime show/movie, the only rule was this: "Who cares as long as it looks cool?". Oh, and yeah, I agree, with a character who has magical/Waterbending powers, who KNOWS what could happen. She unblocked a dude's CHI for goodness' sake![[User:208.122.69.38|208.122.69.38]] 15:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

if you're thinking of it lodgically from the creater's point of view- it would kind of ruin the mystery of zuko... i think so any way.
if you're thinking of it lodgically from the real life point of view- it would have healed by now if it was going to- my sister got fire burns (on xmas eve 2, not fun!) and they went away after like a week or two (or more... i forget). if it was going away, it would of by now.

*Not necessarily. I've had SMALL scars that are there for years before they totally fade (that's, of course, without some kind of treatment). I also know a girl who was severely burned by scolding water, and she STILL has the scars from that, and I belive that's been several years ago. Zuko's scar is HUGE, so there's no way it'd be healed by now, since it's only been three years...but I agree, it DOES ruin his mystery to heal it. I don't really think it'll happen, it's mostly Zutara fluff (YEA ZUTARA!!!), though it's not impossible.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

*In the trailer for the Book 2 Season Finale (Which I absolutely cannot wait two weeks for!), a scene is shown where Katara is holding the amulet Pakku gave her filled with water in from the Oasis in one hand and touching his scar with the other. It's possible it could be healed during the course of the series.
:I will say this ONCE and only once and after that I will not and should not have to say it again on this talk page. Ahem. THERE WILL NOT BE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT FUTURE SHOWS PUT ON THIS BIOGRAPHY UNTIL IT IS CANON (which means, when it airs). ANY ADDING OF SHIPPING, FANCRUFT, AND SPECULATION WILL BE DELETED. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

== Season Two picture ==

I put the picture that I originally uploaded back, my reasoning being that it's a better crop without the giant "Nick" logo on it, and whereas the other picture was very heavily shadowed and farther away, this one is clear, closer-up, you can see his scar better, and it's just an all-around better picture, IMO. Not to mention it depicts Zuko looking ornery, but determined which I think is a very good representation of his general character as opposed to the other picture where he's more or less staring forward expressionlessly. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 05:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Any picture of Zuko is fine with me. :-)

== Hair Color ==
You guys are always going to find something to start an edit war over aren't you. Alright, we'll have a vote to close next Friday. Is it Brown or is it Black? The problem comes in that in Book One, it was easily black. However, since growing his hair it looks lighter. However, I'm going to blame this new light color on his constant shaving of it and/or the dust and dirt he now surrounds himself with. So I vote Black [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 06:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
: '''Black''' for reasons above. --[[User:Crisu|Crisu]] 13:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
:'''Black'''; ditto. [[User:Prototime|Prototime]] 05:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:I vote '''Black''' aswell --[[User:Redsparta|redsparta]] 05:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:I vote black too
: Black. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 11:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
:Brown...just kidding...black
No to say much, but when he was younger, his hair was Brown, even before he was banished. Now, it could be coming back to it's normal color..... Just saying. ~Sayasah

I agree with all of you... I vote '''Black'''. His hair does look brown when he is younger, but I think it is because of the constant sunlight he was in when he was younger. I mean, he lived in the Fire Nation, if he wasn't in the sun he was around some other constant source of light or fire. And besides, it's always sunny there, save for night time. When he was banished, he spent a lot of his time in his room as well, so the sun couldn't bleach his hair. Now, as in second season, he is outside a lot more, probably due to the fact that he is a traveler and doesn't have a room to hide in. The sun actually has some time to bleach his hair. + the dirt thing, that too. But in secret of the fire nation, you could tell if you looked close enough that his hair was black. Still, please people, don't go pressing your noses against the tv...you know....don't wanna be responsible for any eye-trauma...~[[Zutara-Princess]]--Don't forget th rabies! Everything tastes better with rabies!! 05:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that his hair turns black when he's near large bodies of water. His brown hair might turn black when its et or damp. - Count Mall

Zuko's hair is black. The only reason why it looks brown, is becuase he hasn't taken a bath in a really long time, so there is dirt, dust and grime on his hair. In SOFN, Zuko seems to have at least washed his hair or gotten all the grime out of it. - The Dragon's Daughter.

Another thing to consider about Zuko's hair when he's younger is that the coloring and light used is slightly different. Why? Because it denotes a flashback, just as how sounds echo very slightly in the same sequences.

I'm gonna have to say that it's dark brown. When Zuko was shown at fourteen in "The Storm", his hair was obviously brown, and it looks brown now that it's shorter. Also, Azula obviously has dark brown hair, and since they're siblings, that could be taken into consideration.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

The only reason his hair looked brown was because Zuko's flashbacks are always in different lighting (more brownish).[[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 21:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While I would say his hair is black- you should also compare it to, like, Toph's hair, which is black.

In relation to the above, this is true. For example, MY hair is VERY dark brown, and people always think it's black. But if compared to my sister, who DOES have black hair, you can see that it's brown. The whole lighting thing, yeah, that could be accredited to the flashback animation changes (everything does seem to take on an odd hue), but that doesn't change the fact that, in current time, both Zuko and Azula have clearly brown hair. This is especially obvious if compared to Toph whose hair is easily black, as defined by the creators.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

I have black hair and I know, when you have little hair, you can see your skin through the hair, so it won't look dark. As it grows, it becomes thicker and darker.

I looked at the fire nation page on wikipedia and Zuko's hair is black because people in the fire nation usually have dark brown to black hair. And honestly it's almost the same thing. :)

== Quick Note ==
Ok, not to bring this up, after the 1 month chat about it, but there is a slit "Zuko's age problem" to tend to. Not big, dont worry. Just the part, where it says that "..Zuko was about 10-years-old...". Can we really put that in? I mean, with about in there, it kinda flys, but since his age at the time is not known, can it be on there. for all we know, he was only 8-years-old. wich, doesnt pass well with the 10-years-old part. Just saying. ~Sayasha
:I think it was originally put there because that's about the age he looked. Other than that, I changed it so as to not cause any more... whatever, too much crap for one night. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 07:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
:I put that in there for the purposes of specificity, my source being the official site where it states in Azulon's bio that he died six years ago. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 07:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Zuko was ten when his mother died/vanished/disappeared/went missing. -The Dragon's Daughter.

The Triva for Zuko... yeah, has anyone noticed it? The two Chinese kanji characters making up his name Zu meaning the ancsetral tomb/ancestors and Kou meaning to rob, pillage/ rob. In that light, his name would mean something like this: Robber of the Ancestral Tomb. Or something along those lines. Just thought I might throw it out there, I always thought Zuko would mean honorable. - The Dragon's Daughter

Has anyone noticed that both forms of his name include a character about something ancestoral?

== Bending ==

Why isn't there a section about Zuko's bending? We have one for Aang, Katara and Toph, so why not Zuko? At least something about his fighting style or sowards. September 26 15:45 [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]]
:Wow... I just now noticed that there isn't one. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::There still isn't one. What's up? Doesn't anyone want to do it? [[User:202.72.187.152|202.72.187.152]] 16:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:::What's stopping you? I just haven't had the time. I get on, need to revert 50 some things, then I go do my other stuff outside of Wiki. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I added one, but I don't think it's up to standards... [[User:Zygger|Zygger]] 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:From there we can atleast edit it. As I proved below, though, there is no blue fire used in City of Walls and Secrets. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

== Lengthy ==

This is getting kind of long guys. I suggest adding more pictures in the relationships section, something like Zuko fighting Jet or talking to Jin or whatever. What we need is distractors that allow you to scroll down and not see a huge body of text. I know how everyone loves an anti-hero, but this body of information is huge compared to Aang and his group. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
:I'm on it. ^_^ -[[User:Redsparta|Redsparta]] 06:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Due to size and content I request that we put this page up for re-grading. I have no idea how to do this though. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

*Sorry, this doesn't exactly relate to topic, H2P, but I don't think it's quite fair to call Zuko the "anti-hero". Yes, in season one, he was certainly introduced as a pure antogonist, but we're slowly finding out that he's not evil or bad, just bitter. The only thing (only FACTUAL thing, I should say) that really motivates me to say this is that Zuko has had almost no, if ANY, hostile encounters with the gaang this season, which kinda rules him out as being the anti-hero. He's more like...hero-in-training now.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

**Try making sure you know what a term means before criticizing someone's use of it. Zuko's an anti-hero alright, you just don't know what H2P means by it. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*I believe the definition of "anti-hero" is someone who comes in conflict with the hero or has particularly anti-heroic character traits, or traits that aren't generally associated with the hero. As of season two, Zuko has had virtually no conflict with the gaang, ruling him out as someone who goes against the hero. This season, he has also been presented as a basically honorable person, not someone without a moral code. Yes, I could have taken H2P's meaning the wrong way, but with the use of that word, that's how it came across to me. Just sayin'.

And, once again, I'm REALLY not trying to start something, but I don't appreciate your insulting my intelligence. Contrary to popular belief here, I'm NOT stupid.

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am expressing frustration over your insistence on a subject that you obviously do not possess complete knowledge of. An anti-hero is not one who goes against the hero of a series-that's the villain, or antagonist. An anti-hero is a protagonist or hero of a story that possesses particularly unheroic traits-a bank robber could be the hero of his own story, for example, but he's not a very heroic person. Zuko has certainly expressed unheroic qualities throughout the series but has, of late, been cast in the role of a protagonist. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*Like I said, Zuko was introduced as an antogonist. Depending on what qualities you take to be anti-heroic, yes, Zuko could be considered the anti-hero, which is why I say that I could have taken H2P's comment the wrong way. But in MY mind, Zuko isn't the anti-hero (I'm speaking of season two, not season one, by the way), so I don't exactly consider it fair to lable him as such. Think of it this way: Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The main character, Squall Leonhart, was the reluctant leader/protagonist, but that didn't make him the anti-hero, despite his obvious (if few) anti-heroic qualities. If you look up "anti-hero", you'll probably find that the anti-hero is someone who goes against the hero OR has particularly anti-heroic character traits. I've already stated that. And I'm not exactly dumb on the subject of literary terms, so don't say that I don't possess knowledge of them. Please don't think me arrogant, but as an author, I intend to major in literature and creative writing, so I DO have prior knowledge about these things...especially when the elements of fantasy and story and character construction are involoved, such as with the term "anti-hero"...But we've completely gotten off topic anyway. *shrugs* Oh well.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

*Okay, please just look at wiki's article on the [[anti-hero]] and explain to me how Zuko doesn't fit it. He's been a protagonist in various instances, right? Okay, so he's been the hero. Now, has he done stuff that's not heroic? Well, he's resorted to robbing and beating people up to get what he wants, so yes. And this happens in season two. Zuko has, indeed, shown that he can be a very honorable person, for instance by defending the town in "Zuko Alone" and refusing to steal from a pregnant woman. An anti-hero is not a scum-bag, okay? Let's not take the term too far. As the wiki states, the anti-hero is basically Batman: working for the greater cause through often unchivalrous ways. Now, Zuko supposedly freed Appa in "Lake Laogai", right? He's a hero for that. But why did he go there in the first place? To try to find a way to capture Aang. An anti-hero is known for achieving heroic ends through non-heroic means or intent, and Zuko has done that on various occasions. Not just in season two, either: remember that he first donned the identity of the Blue Spirit in order to save Aang from Zhao (heroic) so that he could capture him later (anti-heroic). [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 03:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

*Okay. I'll give ya that. I suppose it's partially my fault; I admit to always being biased in Zuko's favor, because he's my favorite character. I just dislike the term "anti-hero". To me, anti-hero, (although it CAN be applied to Zuko in the way in which you've said), though it isn't necessarily the exact meaning, is generally taken to mean something bad. I don't consider Zuko the anti-hero, because he's obviously meant to be taken as a basically honorable person. Actually, if you analyze Zuko's very animation, he has physical traits that are associated with gallantry in anime.[[User:208.122.69.38|208.122.69.38]] 15:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

== Relationship with Jin Picture ==

The segment is about Zuko and his relation to Jin, but the picture doesn't show Jin's face at all. May I recommend the picture in the "[[Tales of Ba Sing Se]]" episode? It shows how Zuko feels awkward towards her and how major Jin's crush on him is. --[[User:Andrelius|Andrelius]], 5:19 am, October 1 (UTC) (UTC means GMT 0 right?)

== The blue streaks... ==

In the Jet section of Zuko's relationship article, I noticed that there is a sentece that reads like this: "Some believe the light streaks from the tip of his broadswords are lightning--this is not so. When he slashes his swords through the air, the streaks are simply a trail of light from the sword" This is blasphemy. A mere "trail of light" would not be able to slice the toothpick in Jet's mouth clean in half. Also note that the blue streaks had only come from Zuko's blades later on in the fight moments before the police had arrived, and how it was emphasized when first shown cutting Jet's toothpick. The streaks that were shown early in the fight were clear and white, as opposed to the clearly blue-edged lights that eventually began to emit from Zuko's broad-swords. I don't know where anyone comes off saying that these were "simply a trail of light"; the only explanation is that this is either blue flame or lightning. Don't forget that as of recently Zuko's personality hs changed from being arrogant and angered to noticeably more calm and collected as if in control of his emotions better, which is what a firebender requires to bend lightning. Unless of course there is some sort of official material that states otherwise, I suggest the thory of lightning stays a primary possibility, as the light was far too distictive to be just an after-image of some kind.
:You're an idiot. Jet's weapons did the same thing, go rewatch it and stop speculating your secret fetish of Zuko. It's eye candy, not lightning, not blue fire, eye candy. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 08:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

::That's precisely what I did before even typing this article, and I clearly saw that only Zuko's blade's emmitted that blue light. The closest time I saw to Jet's blades making that similar light were when Zuko was slashing on the left and/or right of the screen. I based this article on observation, not fanboyism like your little reply seemed to assume. It is as they say, an assumption will make you an "ass" and the "ump" will "tion" you, and right now, you're that ass.
:::Quite frankly...prove it. You want to add something, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. And, anyway, I'd say blue fire seems more likely than lightening, since what we’ve seen of lighting requires a lot of fairly visible hand motions. Also, I'd encourage EVERYBODY (yes, you were both wrong) to cut out the name calling. And no, that somebody did it first doesn’t make it OK.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 19:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
::::I believe my opening statement was proof enough that there is at least more to the streaks than just special effects. Whether it was either blue flames or lightning in particular isn't what I'm getting at, just that it's more than likely one or the other; perhaps a form of foreshadowing. My goal isn't to add this thought to the actual Wiki, but just to get my point across that, as I said before, it's pretty far-fetched to think that such a disticntive blue light was just an after-effect if it could slice a solid object—as thin as that particular object may have been—in half.
:::::I've been told to smile more and be nicer in my corrections so here: [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg Jet creating spark]. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight2.jpg Twice]. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jettoothpick.jpg here]. As you can see, it's an after image used for eye candy because the scene itself is so dark. What happens on the side view is that the light created moves like a C. but a sideview of a C is just a straight line so it looks like the streak is cutting it but in fact the streak never touches the twig in Jet's mouth. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 23:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

*Actually, I've looked at the screen caps, and they're right. The tooth pick doesn't break until several seconds AFTER Zuko's sword goes by (I admit, I didn't notice when watching the show, I had to check the captures). I don't think it's lightning though. More likely, it's just blue flames, a hotter form of his usual Firebending.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
:That still ignores the problem that Jet's sword had the same effect. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg This image], linked by H2P up a bit, shows that pretty clearly. I'd credit any weirdness with the toothpick's falling to the general weirdness of that scene's animation.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*Well, yeah, but I think the dialogue kinda implies that Zuko was Firebending, because immediately after the sword went by and the toothpick broke, Jet leapt back and said, "Ya see that? The Fire Nation's trying to silence me!", as if he'd seen Zuko bending, and assumed that the onlookers had seen as well. A different shot of the light/sword cutting the toothpick can be seen here. [http://www.firebender.com/e14/images/fb0307.jpg] But, again, it CAN be accredited to this scene's odd animation.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

**The reason Jet said that was because Zuko reacted to Jet's comments ("Bet you wish he'd help you out with a little fire blast, huh?" and such) by coming about two inches from slicing his nose off. Note that Jet was looking for some sign, ANY sign, that Zuko was a Firebender, so he could've been referring to anything about him. It wouldn't make sense for him to point out a flash of light from the tip of Zuko's sword if his own weapons produced the same visual effect (especially considering Jet is probably far more familiar with his hook swords than a couple of swords Zuko pulled off a random Earth Kingdom soldier). The fight scene was dark, the animators needed some way to make it look flashier. So they stuck a couple of flashes of light in. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 02:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are people still arguing this? I clearly proved the theory wrong completely with just 3 pictures. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

* To H2P: I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it could go either or. The odd animation of that scene makes it hard to tell. To Y BCZ: Isn't it odd how no matter WHERE he is, Zuko ALWAYS has access to broadswords...?[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 12:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

** The most likely reason Zuko keeps broadswords around is because he's good with them, and as long as he's in the Earth Kingdom, he needs a way to fight without firebending. [[User:Exhibit A|Exhibit A]] 16:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

***Actually, Zuko's broadswords weren't his originals-they're the ones he swiped off a random Earth Kingdom man early in Book 2. The swords he uses against Jet belong to an Earth Kingdom soldier (you can see the soldier is about to draw the swords, but Zuko just walks up behind him and snatches them out of the sheath). It's not too odd that two Earth Kingdom men out of the several hundred that Zuko and Iroh have come across happened to own twin broadswords, especially considering the location of the tea shop. A lot of their customers are probably soldiers stationed on the outer-most wall, and the Earth Kingdom's soldiers wield a very wide selection of weapons (as opposed to the Fire Nation's hordes of spearmen). Of course, this point doesn't really matter. What matters is we can't tell for sure (and several think it's doubtful) that Zuko Firebended in that scene. It's all speculation, therefore DON'T put it on the page. If Zuko says something like "Jet forced me to Firebend against him in that fight," then sure, go ahead. But as far as we know, Zuko hasn't learned blue Firebending or lightning yet. Note that the only time he's Firebended since was in Tales of Ba Sing Se, and then his flames were the normal orange. The point is this: you have no proof, stop arguing about it.

*Once again: Not arguing. I'm keeping all options open. But, agreed, until it's confirmed, keep it off the page.[[User:208.122.69.29|208.122.69.29]] 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
*:The option shouldn't be kept open! I've proved it wrong above, why won't anyone look at the damn pictures I posted? Here, I'll post them again: [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg Jet creating spark]. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight2.jpg Twice]. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jettoothpick.jpg here].
**This is really quite pointless to argue, H2P pretty much proved that the streaks aren't any type of bending with the pictures of Jet. I'm positive that the streaks are just afterimages of the sword ex. When you swing a sword really fast an afterimage is created when light is reflected of it. That's all it is, light. -Jammity 14:36 18 Nov.

== Requested Move ==
See [[Talk: Uncle Iroh#Requested move]] to discuss. Please do not discuss the move here, follow the link.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 21:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
==Personality Section==
It seems to me that the Personality section is a little... awkward? I don't know if someone wants to try integratting it better with the rest of the article, I was just passing through and noticed it left a little something to be desired grammatically, so I did my best giving it a makeover.[[User:Quantheory|Sean Patrick Santos]] 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

== Sokka ==

Are the details in the relationship between Sokka and Zuko important enough for there to be a section devoted to it? [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)+

I agree. I doubt that Zuko even notices that Sokka even exists. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]]

*Yeah...it isn't that important...but Zuko DOES know that Sokka exists. In "The Waterbending Scroll", Zuko told Katara that he wouldn't hurt her or HER BROTHER if she told him where Aang was. Just throwin' that in there. [[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Too, in the episode "Crossroads of Destiny" when Aang says he'll help get Zuko and Katara back,
Sokka says he isn't going to rescue Zuko at all. Then Iroh says there is good in him, and Sokka remarks tell us when it's outside him too. And Zuko knows who Sokka is because in the episodes, "The boy in the iceburg" he fights Sokka and beats him up.

== Personality Section: NPOV ==

"At first, Zuko lashes out and turns to robbery, even to those who are kind to him. However, over time, Zuko begins to calm himself and act in a better way"

A 'better' way?
<math>Insert formula here</math>

Um...I changed something on the trivia section. Lee/Li (however you want to spell it) also means "Strength" in Chinese. Its a Chinese boy's name. I got this information off of a Chinese baby name websight. -DJ[[User:Dragon Jadefire|Zutara and Taang FOREVER]] 04:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)(PS: My username is Dragon Jadefire, but I go by DJ)

== Lake Laogai spoilers ==

Should there be spoilers for Lake Laogai {and unaired episodes in general} in this article? Although there's a spoiler warning near the beginning, people might not expect unaired episode spoilers. --[[User:NoraBlack|NoraBlack]] 04:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Any canonical information that is available can be posted. There's hardly a difference in posting spoilers for episodes that haven't aired in one particular manner or another. Lake Laogai has aired on TurboNick instead of Nickelodeon, but there are quite a few episodes that are in the reverse situation. It's all the same to someone who has or hasn't seen it. -- [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

PICTURE OF ZUKO from Lake Laogai episode: Why doesn't someone update the picture of zuko to one from the Lake Laogai episode after it airs tonight? I would, but don't know how. Besides, he looks A LOT cooler with his hair longer. Sorta gangster-ish.

Sure, lets just update his picture every new episode then! [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean his hair has grown ''a lot'' longer since he firt had it cut. I'd go either way, but what does everyone else think? [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
::I'm hoping H2P's remark was sarcastic. If not, it's ridiculous. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|Gobble Gobble!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|Happy Thanksgiving!]]} 02:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Of course it was. Apparently people didn't see that. If we start changing his picture every time his hair grows we'll be changing it once a week. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 02:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I knew that. I was just testing you. [[Image:Wink.png|18px]] [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|Gobble Gobble!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|Happy Thanksgiving!]]} 03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::::Well, the pic from above looks like it was from "Zuko Alone," which was pretty early in the season. Now we're towards the end of the season, so isn't it time for an update? We don't have to change it every new episode. [[User:GdaMan|GdaMan]] 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC) GdaMan

*Well, while I agree it IS ridiculous to update pictures EVERY time an episode airs, it WOULD be more practical to post a Lake Laogai picture, taking into consideration that his hair has grown a considerable length with this episode.[[User:71.164.44.185|71.164.44.185]] 01:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
*:Yeah but how long will it stay that way? he might cut it then we change it again. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 05:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
*Would you get a new one if he did cut it? [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 03:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:My personal suggestion: update the picture, but only if we have a more recent picture that is of equal or better quality than the one that's there now.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 03:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::You know, I was just thinking that we might even get a really good pic. from lake laogai (Just the way the camera looked at him), but maybe in some of the newer episodes will be as good as this one (I like it, but I think maybe it might be time for change). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 20:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Train Aang?==

I think that Zuko may be the one to train Aang in book 3. Since it is unlikely that he'll ever be able to return to the fire nation, his hatred of Azula, his slow change into a good guy, and Uncle Iroh helping him, he might decide to help Aang. What do you think?

:That's nice, but this isn't a forum. You want to discuss speculation, go to a forum. We only do facts on this web site, and this page is meant for changes to the associated page. Good day sir. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't a forum and all but I just want to point out Zuko isn't even done with HIS training. Iroh is still teaching him... So even if by some random conicidience he was taught by one of them, it would probably be Iroh.

For all we know, he ''could'' be a master, but there could be tecniqes he hasn't mastered yet (blue fire and lightning). It goes back to Ozai and Zhao being masters, yet hasn't been seen bending blue fire and/or lightning. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

=="Katara"==
I've removed the section entirely. I don't care if you like to pretend that Katara and Zuko are meant for each other. It's still not case, and there has been no indication whatsoever. Thus, there's little point to actually have the section and exempt Toph and Sokka beyond the insane delusions of shippers. [[User:Interrobamf|Interrobamf]] 10:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:I don't know if you noticed or not, but there isn't a single word about any kind of romance in the section, or in the "Zuko" section of Katara's page. They have interacted enough to warrant a section on each others pages, and even if you disagree, that's the kind of thing that should be discussed first. [[User:Exhibit A|Exhibit A]] 16:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

::We both know well that the only reason those sections exist is due to "Zutara". Their interaction? They fought once over Aang, fought together with a bunch of other people against Azula (where they interacted as much Toph and Sokka did with Zuko), and talked about a necklace once. No, there needs to be far more than that. [[User:Interrobamf|Interrobamf]] 22:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm putting it back. Reasons or no, removing that big a hunk of text with no consensus to do so doesn't fly.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 00:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I'm as adamantly against shipping on wp as anyone, but that chunk of text is not shipping. His relationship to Katara is worth noting if only for their great battle at the North Pole, where both of their improved skills were pitted against each other. As well, I am sure more information will come up later to be added to it. Whether or not they have any future, speculative romantic entaglements, they do have a [[interpersonal relationship|relationship]]. That said, at a glance, I suspect the section could be pruned a bit. Just do it with thought, rather than cutting the whole thing off. '''[[User:MrErku|Erk]]'''|[[User:MrErku|Talk]]|[http://www.rmxp.org homepage] 08:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he ever even say her name... ever? I've never heard any fire benders (besides like Jeong Jeong) say any of their names, they always say the Avatar and his friends and stuff.

:Now that I think about it, he never did say her name... weird...

::He still has a relationship, it's just a hate-hate relationship. The summerary also expresses "The Chase" when she wanted to help him. Also Zuko never says Zhao's name (i think...). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
:::He says Captain Zhao in episode 3 [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]]

Are we allowed to add information for future episodes which information has been confirmed. For instance could you add that they are trapped in a cave together in the upcoming episode? Or should we wait until it airs?
:We don't add anything about future episodes to characters biographies. You can add informationg given by the creators (and ONLY the creators) on the page for the future show. However, until it is canon it does not get added. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

== Season Two ==

I've made some efforts to condense the synopsis of Book Two slightly and make it flow better.. what does everyone think? [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 07:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks better. Not like the list that was there. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 14:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This reads so much better. I'm going to go ahead and remove the List to Prose statement. Now all we need to do is shorten it to a much more readable length and we'll be done with it. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that the season is over and I'm feeling caught up on everything, I'm going to make an effort to do some major pruning on this section... if I don't have it done by tonight it should be ready in the next day or two. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Finished updating the Book II section. It wound up as more of a trimming than a true pruning, but I got reid of a lot of needless details and tried to make the details of the important events more concise. (I think when I first copied it into Word it ran at more than 5 and a half pages, I managed to cut out about a page of that). If anyone wants to do further work on it, feel free. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]

==Firbending Master==
I noticed that someone has made Zuko a firebending master, even though it's just a title. When did that happen? And can we consider him a master?[[User:Boywonder18|Boywonder18]] 00:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I took it off and just let it say "Firebender". He's probably close to mastery, but I guess we'll have to see if he's ever refered to in the show as one. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 01:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This really needs to stop. "Master" is a title, a rank. You’re formally given that title by another Master (presumably your instructor.) Its not just "learn all these techniques and then you are a master." Think of it like a military promotion: whether or not you deserve to be a Corporal, you're still a Private until somebody promotes you. People need to stop editing this (and other) articles to claim people are masters who have never been given the title.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 21:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Nick Latin America has informed that he is indeed a Firebending Master, so, he in reality is.
:Thank you finally. Never do that again. Can we have a source please? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Try to find a spanish avatar clip with Zuko inside, often the word '''Maestrofuego''' which means firebending master can be heard, that should be enough proof and, what gives proof of Zhao being a firebending master.
:That is not a source. A source is needed. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't any spanish videos on youtube and my computer can't access turbonick so, try searching yourself but, what gives proof of other firebenders being masters.
:There is no mention of Zuko being a Fire Bending master in the show. Period. A link to an official site or an interview woukld probably be the only things. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 22:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See this link, it was edited a long time ago. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuko#Las_Capacidades
:As you can see, this is the English Wikipedia meaning we don't use the Spanish form of shows. I highly doubt it said he was even said at all in the Spanish version. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That means that Zuko needs to be called Firebending master, Exactly as it is written.[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
:...did you even read what I wrote? No Spanish Avatar as a source! -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 01:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but can a normal firebender beat a Firebending master?

==Jin and Song==

These two are listed under the realtionships section but are they really large enough characters to be there? They were both only there for one episdoe each. Jin I can inderstand because she was pretty much Zuko's first relationship even if she was only there for one episode. But Song? She hardly had a large enough role to be truly significant and her chances of being seen again are fairly low.
I think at least Song's section should be deleted. Anyone agree? [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:I've been wondering about Song for awhile. She seemed to have an effect about Zuko, as he learned about the troubles his people had inflicted upon innocents. However, he also met Lee's family during that time, and they aren't listed in the relationships section. Jin was there for only a few minutes, but the fact that they kissed does kind of play a big factor. I don't think we really need Song there anymore. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So is it agreed that we should delete Song's paragraph? Or does anyone protest to this? But if you do have a good reason why because once again, Song really isn't a huge part of Zuko's life anymore. [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:Don't get too far ahead of yourself, the subject only just came up an hour ago. Wait to hear other people's opinions. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:I see no reason for either of them, but I forsee Jin playing a role in upcoming episodes so, for now, I say we can leave her. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:I personally don't think Jin or anything or anyone else from Tales of Ba Sing Se will have any impact beyond that episode, but I'd be in favor of leaving her paragraph in the relationship section in, since a date is a notable event for Zuko. I think it might be best to just limit Song to the bit that is mentioned in the Book II section, however. That part seems to cover most of what there is to say between her and Zuko. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 06:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't saying we delete just yet. Just seeing if anyone disagreed. Jin yes she might still play a major role. However Song I think is doubtful. [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 20:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
== FA ==

Due to the fact that information on this page won't be updated for a good while, and due to the overall length and style of the article, I suggest that we clean this up just a bit more and then nominate it for FA status. In order to do this, though, we are going to need to cite many of the episodes as sources (similar to what I did to Waterbender a while back). I've cleaned a few unnecessary pictures from the page, the rest need proper citation (I don't think the Jet picture works all that well). I know we're all working real hard to nominate the main Avatar article, but if we get a chance we could easily convert this along with it. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:The biggest problem is that most of the article reads as an list of episode summarys. All of our project shall decend upon this aricle and make it worthy of Featured Articleness. [[User:Cnriaczoy42|Cnriaczoy42]] 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
::I just finished pruning through the history section (not sure if I hit the stuff prior to book 1). The problem is that the history is the story section and a story section is nothing more than episode summaries. I think I was able to remove all the very small details. I think his relationship with Jet (atleast, in the story section) is not needed but I did't remove it yet. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm new here, and would just like to say you might want to update his summary. You could mention the fact he's a tragic hero, and make it sound a bit more... interesting. That's all. 22:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how is he a tragic hero?--[[User:SUIT|'''SU''''''IT''']] 04:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
:Scroll up the Lengthness. I don't get why people don't see that. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
::By definition. "Tragic hero: a literary character who makes an error of judgment or has a fatal flaw that, combined with fate and external forces, brings on a tragedy." That's a direct quote from a dictionary. 02:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tragic hero? Hmmm, it seem to fit him, but what about anti-hero? Oooh! I got it! Tragic anti-hero!
My cat: You made that up!
Me: Hey, it seems to fit. [[User:66.45.175.101|66.45.175.101]] 20:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== Top Importance? ==

Why would one main character page be top importance over the others? I know this one may be the most detailed and longest, but tthis is importance. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 01:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

== Mai? ==

Should Mai still be in the character relationship. I remember others being taken out because of lack of depth and all it really mentions is Mai's apparent childhood crush on Zuko. Since Mai's appearance, there has been no interaction between the two and seeing how the season has ended, I think it's time it was taken down.
-[[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]]
:Why? Now that they're both in Ba Sing Se, and (you would think) in th same palace, there should be interaction. And they ''did'' interact in "Zuko Alone" (the whole "game" insident). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Keeping it up just becase of speculation of what might happen is sort of fandom isn't? From my understanding, Relationships created because the characters had an impact on each other or there was consistent interaction throughtout the series. Aside from the flashback, there has been no interaction between the two, and even then, there wasn't enough substance to warrent a relationship. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 20:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed her, considering that they haven't interacted since their childhood and it played no role in who Zuko becomes. People in the relationships section should have some direct meaning to the character's character. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, and if Mai interacts with him in Book Three, we can always put her back on. [[User:Bagpipeturtle|Bagpipeturtle]] 17:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
::(*cries*) Well...I should have known this would happen after what happened to Haru...Oh well. I don't see how they ''can't'' have no intersection in book three anyway...so once agian I admit defeat. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 22:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

== Relationships Removal ==

This is just a personal opinion but I think the relationships aren't really needed for the character pages. It seems since the relationship pages were created, it has only sprouted more controversy on what is considered a relationship, and what is merely fandom. Add on to that, with a future season coming, there's only going to be more increase to that particular section.

The character pages (Mainly Zuko's and Aang's) are far too long and the character relationships is the only reasonable thing to cut out. And I personally think there already enough on the pages without relationships, to give anyone enough insight on the characters. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 20:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:...I disagree. The relationship between characters is one of the show's most prominent and important elements. Just think of how much Katara has affected Aang's actions, or Iroh has unfluenced Zuko. Those are very important aspects of the characters. Deleting those sections would be leaving out some essential information. Besides, I think taking out the relationship sections would cause even MORE controversy than already exists. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
::I agree with Y, but I think we need to reword them so that instead of just showing how they've interacted, show how they influenced the other. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 23:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:::What I was thinking was to use something along the lines of a Character Analysis. Because when you get right down to it, only a few characters on each list played a vital role in the respective character's evolution. Despite her small role, Jin played a major part in Zuko's season 2 development while Jet didn't really. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

==Original Research==

Almost this is entire page is original research. Please read [[WP:OR]] before adding things you have written yourself. Sources are needed to back up all statements on WP. - [[User:Ocatecir|Ocatecir]] 19:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:Yeah, I reverted your gutting of the article. The source is the show itself, which is well established practice. If you'd like to cite specific example of what you think are OR, fine, but don't think you're just going to wipe the article clean like that.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 20:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::This is what I also told Ocatecir on his user talk page. There is no OR, but it is a way too detailed character synopsis.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|竜龍]]) 01:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I just left a message on his talkpage. Which he immediately deleted. I think it's banhammer time. Or call one of the commitees. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 01:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Until I see some good faith effort to discuss the issue (for example, responding to rather than ignoring and deleting talk page comments) I'll just consider any attempt to remove that much content from the article vandalism and react accordingly. Don't really have much choice, if the other parties won't discuss anything...--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:I see he gave you the backspace treatment too. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 02:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
::Indeed. I don't really see what can be done, if every effort to discuss the issue is going to be ignored.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Frankly your responses turned me off to trying to argue with you, especially pacific coast highway's comments about abuse (and then banhammer time and committee? please. I know you're only 16 but please conduct yourself with a little maturity). I'm not going to argue with 15 editors who are obviously fans of a subject I know nothing about and treat your adherence to rules as an attack on them. The problem with arguing with webcomic/anime/podcast editors on wikipedia is they treat wikipedia as an all-inclusive resource instead of a wikipedia. So go ahead and revert this article to a 15 page long fansite, someone else later on down the line should clean it up though. There are plenty of other pages that need to be cleaned up to comply with wikipedia's guidelines that I don't need to be arguing here. I will simply move on. - [[User:Ocatecir|Ocatecir]] 02:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
::::So much for civility. And continuously ignoring/removing messages from your talkpage dosen't look good on your part either. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 02:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::Is this guy kidding? Didn't we just have Torchic on the main page a few weeks back? [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
This sorely needs to be written with [[WP:FAC]] in mind. And it really needs citations. See [[List of FoxTrot family members]] for citing from the source - the page number and book is cited. Surely it can be done for this article? [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 09:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the [[Zuko#Personality|personality]] section is original resrach. Sentences like ''While initially the series' main antagonist, over time Zuko's continued development has shown him to be more like a bitter and complex young man'' are advancing a particular viewpoint, an interpretation, instead of just the facts, and thus require some kind of citation from an outside source. [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 09:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

:The whole article is original research. ''Nothing'' is backed up by sources. I seriously hope you aren't serious about submitting this to FA or even GA with 0 references. Saying "the show is the reference itself" isn't good enough. I would fail this as a GA but i'm interested in what another editor thinks. [[User:M3tal H3ad|M3tal H3ad]] 11:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::And I direct you to [[Padme Amidala]] who's featured article status is backed up mostly, almost fully, but references to the movie and the books of the Star Wars universe. I see no difference except that we don't have many outside sources like reviews and interviews that we can actually use. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 14:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

== Alter Ego category? ==

should we add Zuko to the catagory of Fictional Characters with Alter Egos? Granted, there's no catagory with that name, and while he clearly doesn't have multiple personalities, like Conholio is to Beavis for example, the Blue Spirit is still an aspect of him.

<nowiki>[[Category:Alter egos]]</nowiki>

== GA review ==

This article has a lot of flaws and I'm going to fail it. The lead should summarize the entire article and be longer than two paragraphs for an article of this size (see [[WP:LEAD]]). The article doens't have any inline citations, which is should have. The article has a "original research" tag. I won't get into whether it is justified, but a good article should have resolves these issues. Articles should not contain trivia sections. Finally, the entire article is in-universe and should have out-of-universe information, such as how was the character created in the real world (see [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction)]]). --[[User:Maitch|Maitch]] 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
:We don't have that information. All the information we have about the character is presented. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

== Breath of Flame? ==

I was watching last nigh, and Iroh mentioned something about Zuko's Breath of Flame (?) not really sure what this is, but should it be included in the abilitis —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/71.80.121.174|71.80.121.174]] ([[User talk:71.80.121.174|talk]]) 03:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

"Breathe of Fire," to be precise, and, like the name implies, it's a talent where be breathes fire. According to the director commentary for the episode it's actually a real Yoga move (Albeit without real fire), and Zuko used it to heat himself up after going through the freezing water and ice during [[The Siege of the North]]. [[User:JBK405|JBK405]] 22:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Zuko's age ==

Zuko's age is listed as "16 (possibly 17 by book 2)" shouldn't the "possibly... " part be removed or is there reason to think this? I'm asking because it's been like that for a few days now. [[User:Cherries Jubilee|Cherries Jubilee]] 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
:Its actually been that way for quite a while, after a pretty major discussion on the subject ([[/Archive_1#Zuko.27s_age|here]].--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 17:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
::Removed it, stop re-adding it. Until he has a birthday we see he's 16 barring any confirmed information from the creators. [[User:Eban|Eban]] 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Sorry, no. Did you even bother reading that discussion I linked?--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 17:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It was mentioned in the begining of "The Avatar State" [[User:Xavcam|XAV]] 16:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

== Making this a featured article discussion ==

Here's where we can discuss steps to making this a featured article. I'm currently in the process of adding sources to the article. I think that the season 1 and season 2's formats should match. I think we should condense what's in the season 2 section and take away the divisions to make it look like season 1. Thoughts? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:I like the divisions as they are. It would be hard to knock out the data because Zuko became such a main player in season 2. We could shorten it, but it should never be as short as Season 1. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
::Ok. you think we should keep the divisions by certain episodes though? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Well I like them the way they are, a lot of the episodes focus around one theme. Like the banishment period, the Ba Sing Se period, Alone, etc. I think what they really need is just clean up. Take away a lot of the fluff. I've done this multiple times but it always seems to come back. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Shouldn't both seasons have the same format though? I think one way or the other... -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think there's a perfectly logical reason for the differences, as in Season 1 most of the episodes where he's in it's just Zuko is making another attempt to capture Aang, without it having a greater significance to the character, or his role within the show. During Season 2, however, nearly episode has some occurrence or lends to the evolution of Zuko's character, which is a big reason for a slightly different format.[[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]

I think the biggest thing the article actually needs is a fairly brief paragraph at the start describing the world of Avatar, it's history and settings somewhat. One of the primary reasons the article didn't make Good Article status is because it was written in an "in universe" style, and it's true. I imagine someone who has never seen an Avatar episode stumbling onto the article and saying "Firebending? What the hell is Firebending?!!" and then leaving to read something else. If no one else wants to, I can get started on a section like that for the article.[[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]
:Well, I've given it a shot with adding that section. What does everyone think? [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]
*Question: Is it ok what I've been doing with the season 2 episodes and citing the episodes the specific part is on next where it says main article and not in the text? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 18:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:Nevermind, I did it by paragraph. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
*New topic, we need to shorten the article. Do Jin and Jet need spots in the relationships? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 23:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well they were a part of book 2 and they could be removed eventually. It is unlikely they will be seen in any future episodes. [[User:XAVCAMM|XAV]] 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jin made an impact on him, first thing with person... *goes to pause Yu-Gi-Oh in the other window* Jin appears to be the first person who had a kind of romantic relationship with and a person with whom he acted different to usual. She may not have been around for long but at the least she showed Zuko the kind of life he could have had if he chose to remain in Ba Sing Se as Lee. [[User:Cherries Jubilee|Cherries Jubilee]] 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess so. Perhaps Jet should be removed eventually he doesn't seem to have left a big impact on him. [[User:XAVCAMM|XAV]] 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:Jin Is 1st if either. You can see no effects of their date now and she was a one shot character. In my mind those have no place in a relationships section of a main character. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:We also need to take the Zuko and Jin picture out. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:I also propose to take the Katara section out. They haven't interacted enough for it to be there. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 21:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
:: Yeah I'm sure she's nice and all, but Jin really was a four-minute character in a considerably detached episode (notice how I didn't use "filler"). The creators have even stated that she's a one-shot and like several others, they'd like to bring her back but its unlikely. And yeah that Katara section was there long before they even had any substantial interaction (no that Zutara catalyst doesn't count, she said like 3 lines). Give ya five guesses why, rhymes with skipping. Though thanks to fanservice in the finale I think its kinda too late for that now. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
:::Katara really should stay. That whole thing in the caves was a pretty pivotal scene.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 01:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Eh, kinda forced. But like I said, its too late for that now. A relationship should truly be one that is continua and longlasting, not some dude that Mike, Bryan, and the rest thought that it'd be just be super-awesome for him to cross paths with. So ya'know, bye-bye Jet+Jin. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
:::::Fyre, the thing is, look at the size of the article. I think after Jet and Jin, Katara is next. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::We shouldn't be removing stuff just to make it shorter. If something belongs there, it belongs there, no matter how long that means the article will be.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 15:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::: If only that were true, well for some occassions anyway. Its pretty much the opposite though, or at the very most has a profound effect. ~Father's Wish —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Father's Wish II|Father's Wish II]] ([[User talk:Father's Wish II|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Father's Wish II|contribs]]) 09:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
:::::::I'm just telling you what people are going to say when we nominate it. "It's too long for an article about a fictional character." They'll probably be right. Back to Jet and Jin. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think all relationships should be removed and any relevant information worked into the article. This way the personality section can be deleted and then rewritten as well. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
:Interesting. Where would we rework it into though? And why delete the personality section? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::There isn't a purpose to the personality section. Their actions with the others is usually stated in the History section while how that person changes their personality should be in the personality section. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
:::We can't just have episode recaps the whole time. We need some other stuff! -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Again I refer you to [[Queen Amidala]] who has no relationships section and half the page is just story. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::Characteristics is personality, XD. BTW, we should notice that the page is 44 kb long. Zuko right now is 73. We've got some major cutting to do. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 01:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::We've been saying THAT all along. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 07:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Actually, not really. Some people think we don't need to cut. We need to come to a consensus. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 11:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
*I have a proposition to make. We take out the relationships, family, personality and maybe abilities section and work them into the rest of the article. We put them into the episode recaps making them less recap-y, and more insight into Zuko. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Note for everybody: we're still discussing this. [[WP:BOLD]] isn't a free pass to do whatever you want.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

: What contradciting policies was I using. WP:BOLD means that if an improvement can be made, then it doesn't need to be talked about. Also, two other people agreed that tose sections could go. I don't see how I was hurting anyone of anything by being Bold. [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 21:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
::All of Wiki's policy's are contradicting. Yes, people agreed, but some didn't. Let's wait and get opinions on getting rid of relationships all together before taking any one out. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 21:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Dylan's opinion's on policies aside (let's not go down that road again, OK?) acting unilaterally in the middle of a discussion is bad form. We have talk pages for a reason. Remember that [[WP:CONS]] is policy, too.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Zuko

2007-03-21T01:20:56Z

Cpzphantom: /* Firbending Master */

{{FailedGA|2007-02-12}}
{{Nicktoon Character|class=B|importance=Mid}}
{{WPAVATAR
|class=B
|importance=Top}}
{{talkheader}}
{{archive box|*[[Talk:Zuko/Archive 1|Archive 1]]}}
== Scar ==

His scar may heal someday, as it is said that a scar lingers until the argument between the man who caused it and the man who owns it has been resolved. In other words until Zuko has claimed the throne.

:Umm...........WHO says this?--[[User:Darkling235|Darkling235]] 03:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:It's just speculation and theories, which are not fit for this page [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 05:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

:The scar on his face will never heal. If is were going to, it would have already. ~Sayasha

:Not to mention that scars fade not heal because technically scar tissue is what's left over after a wound has ''already'' healed, thus making "healing a scar" an oxymoron. And, as Sayasha already said, if his scar was going to fade it would have long ago. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 10:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think his scar will ever be healed. It's a part of him now.

*It depends. Personally, I think Zuko's scar could be used as somthing symbolic in the show, as an example of him healing from the wounds of the past (I wrote an entire multi-chaptered fanfiction about this theory, so I've been working on it for a while). Now scars CAN heal. I've had scars that are there for a few years, but they gradually fade and disappear as the tissue mends. The thing is, Zuko's scar is so large (and likely, more than skin deep), that it wouldn't completely heal on its own. There IS a possibility, however, that if Zuko ever joins the gaang, Katara could heal the scar completely with Waterbending (though I imagine it would likely be on accident). Mind you that's just a theory, completely unconfirmed, but it's still a possibility.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
:*sigh* Read Raceberry's post above, he wasn't pulling the scar information out of his ass. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 03:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
::In fairness, though, when you have a character with pseudo-magical healing powers, who knows what might happen?--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 04:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
:::True, but all the "Katara healing Zuko's scar" stuff is just stuff Zutara fans use in their fan-fiction. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 15:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I put a lot of stuff in my fanfiction that I don't actually think will happen (healing scar, Suki is an Earthbender, ect.). It's just for the sake of making the story interesting. Lots of people do that, actually (since you're not really big on pairings, I guess you don't read a lot of fanfiction, so...). I don't think Katara will heal Zuko's scar, but it's a possibility...besides, there ARE places in the show where real-life rules are disregarded. And, as the "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" creators once defined the rules for making a good anime show/movie, the only rule was this: "Who cares as long as it looks cool?". Oh, and yeah, I agree, with a character who has magical/Waterbending powers, who KNOWS what could happen. She unblocked a dude's CHI for goodness' sake![[User:208.122.69.38|208.122.69.38]] 15:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

if you're thinking of it lodgically from the creater's point of view- it would kind of ruin the mystery of zuko... i think so any way.
if you're thinking of it lodgically from the real life point of view- it would have healed by now if it was going to- my sister got fire burns (on xmas eve 2, not fun!) and they went away after like a week or two (or more... i forget). if it was going away, it would of by now.

*Not necessarily. I've had SMALL scars that are there for years before they totally fade (that's, of course, without some kind of treatment). I also know a girl who was severely burned by scolding water, and she STILL has the scars from that, and I belive that's been several years ago. Zuko's scar is HUGE, so there's no way it'd be healed by now, since it's only been three years...but I agree, it DOES ruin his mystery to heal it. I don't really think it'll happen, it's mostly Zutara fluff (YEA ZUTARA!!!), though it's not impossible.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

*In the trailer for the Book 2 Season Finale (Which I absolutely cannot wait two weeks for!), a scene is shown where Katara is holding the amulet Pakku gave her filled with water in from the Oasis in one hand and touching his scar with the other. It's possible it could be healed during the course of the series.
:I will say this ONCE and only once and after that I will not and should not have to say it again on this talk page. Ahem. THERE WILL NOT BE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT FUTURE SHOWS PUT ON THIS BIOGRAPHY UNTIL IT IS CANON (which means, when it airs). ANY ADDING OF SHIPPING, FANCRUFT, AND SPECULATION WILL BE DELETED. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

== Season Two picture ==

I put the picture that I originally uploaded back, my reasoning being that it's a better crop without the giant "Nick" logo on it, and whereas the other picture was very heavily shadowed and farther away, this one is clear, closer-up, you can see his scar better, and it's just an all-around better picture, IMO. Not to mention it depicts Zuko looking ornery, but determined which I think is a very good representation of his general character as opposed to the other picture where he's more or less staring forward expressionlessly. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 05:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Any picture of Zuko is fine with me. :-)

== Hair Color ==
You guys are always going to find something to start an edit war over aren't you. Alright, we'll have a vote to close next Friday. Is it Brown or is it Black? The problem comes in that in Book One, it was easily black. However, since growing his hair it looks lighter. However, I'm going to blame this new light color on his constant shaving of it and/or the dust and dirt he now surrounds himself with. So I vote Black [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 06:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
: '''Black''' for reasons above. --[[User:Crisu|Crisu]] 13:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
:'''Black'''; ditto. [[User:Prototime|Prototime]] 05:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:I vote '''Black''' aswell --[[User:Redsparta|redsparta]] 05:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
:I vote black too
: Black. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 11:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
:Brown...just kidding...black
No to say much, but when he was younger, his hair was Brown, even before he was banished. Now, it could be coming back to it's normal color..... Just saying. ~Sayasah

I agree with all of you... I vote '''Black'''. His hair does look brown when he is younger, but I think it is because of the constant sunlight he was in when he was younger. I mean, he lived in the Fire Nation, if he wasn't in the sun he was around some other constant source of light or fire. And besides, it's always sunny there, save for night time. When he was banished, he spent a lot of his time in his room as well, so the sun couldn't bleach his hair. Now, as in second season, he is outside a lot more, probably due to the fact that he is a traveler and doesn't have a room to hide in. The sun actually has some time to bleach his hair. + the dirt thing, that too. But in secret of the fire nation, you could tell if you looked close enough that his hair was black. Still, please people, don't go pressing your noses against the tv...you know....don't wanna be responsible for any eye-trauma...~[[Zutara-Princess]]--Don't forget th rabies! Everything tastes better with rabies!! 05:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that his hair turns black when he's near large bodies of water. His brown hair might turn black when its et or damp. - Count Mall

Zuko's hair is black. The only reason why it looks brown, is becuase he hasn't taken a bath in a really long time, so there is dirt, dust and grime on his hair. In SOFN, Zuko seems to have at least washed his hair or gotten all the grime out of it. - The Dragon's Daughter.

Another thing to consider about Zuko's hair when he's younger is that the coloring and light used is slightly different. Why? Because it denotes a flashback, just as how sounds echo very slightly in the same sequences.

I'm gonna have to say that it's dark brown. When Zuko was shown at fourteen in "The Storm", his hair was obviously brown, and it looks brown now that it's shorter. Also, Azula obviously has dark brown hair, and since they're siblings, that could be taken into consideration.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

The only reason his hair looked brown was because Zuko's flashbacks are always in different lighting (more brownish).[[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 21:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While I would say his hair is black- you should also compare it to, like, Toph's hair, which is black.

In relation to the above, this is true. For example, MY hair is VERY dark brown, and people always think it's black. But if compared to my sister, who DOES have black hair, you can see that it's brown. The whole lighting thing, yeah, that could be accredited to the flashback animation changes (everything does seem to take on an odd hue), but that doesn't change the fact that, in current time, both Zuko and Azula have clearly brown hair. This is especially obvious if compared to Toph whose hair is easily black, as defined by the creators.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

I have black hair and I know, when you have little hair, you can see your skin through the hair, so it won't look dark. As it grows, it becomes thicker and darker.

I looked at the fire nation page on wikipedia and Zuko's hair is black because people in the fire nation usually have dark brown to black hair. And honestly it's almost the same thing. :)

== Quick Note ==
Ok, not to bring this up, after the 1 month chat about it, but there is a slit "Zuko's age problem" to tend to. Not big, dont worry. Just the part, where it says that "..Zuko was about 10-years-old...". Can we really put that in? I mean, with about in there, it kinda flys, but since his age at the time is not known, can it be on there. for all we know, he was only 8-years-old. wich, doesnt pass well with the 10-years-old part. Just saying. ~Sayasha
:I think it was originally put there because that's about the age he looked. Other than that, I changed it so as to not cause any more... whatever, too much crap for one night. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] 07:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
:I put that in there for the purposes of specificity, my source being the official site where it states in Azulon's bio that he died six years ago. [[User:Raceberry|Raceberry]] 07:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Zuko was ten when his mother died/vanished/disappeared/went missing. -The Dragon's Daughter.

The Triva for Zuko... yeah, has anyone noticed it? The two Chinese kanji characters making up his name Zu meaning the ancsetral tomb/ancestors and Kou meaning to rob, pillage/ rob. In that light, his name would mean something like this: Robber of the Ancestral Tomb. Or something along those lines. Just thought I might throw it out there, I always thought Zuko would mean honorable. - The Dragon's Daughter

Has anyone noticed that both forms of his name include a character about something ancestoral?

== Bending ==

Why isn't there a section about Zuko's bending? We have one for Aang, Katara and Toph, so why not Zuko? At least something about his fighting style or sowards. September 26 15:45 [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]]
:Wow... I just now noticed that there isn't one. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::There still isn't one. What's up? Doesn't anyone want to do it? [[User:202.72.187.152|202.72.187.152]] 16:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:::What's stopping you? I just haven't had the time. I get on, need to revert 50 some things, then I go do my other stuff outside of Wiki. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I added one, but I don't think it's up to standards... [[User:Zygger|Zygger]] 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:From there we can atleast edit it. As I proved below, though, there is no blue fire used in City of Walls and Secrets. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

== Lengthy ==

This is getting kind of long guys. I suggest adding more pictures in the relationships section, something like Zuko fighting Jet or talking to Jin or whatever. What we need is distractors that allow you to scroll down and not see a huge body of text. I know how everyone loves an anti-hero, but this body of information is huge compared to Aang and his group. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
:I'm on it. ^_^ -[[User:Redsparta|Redsparta]] 06:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Due to size and content I request that we put this page up for re-grading. I have no idea how to do this though. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

*Sorry, this doesn't exactly relate to topic, H2P, but I don't think it's quite fair to call Zuko the "anti-hero". Yes, in season one, he was certainly introduced as a pure antogonist, but we're slowly finding out that he's not evil or bad, just bitter. The only thing (only FACTUAL thing, I should say) that really motivates me to say this is that Zuko has had almost no, if ANY, hostile encounters with the gaang this season, which kinda rules him out as being the anti-hero. He's more like...hero-in-training now.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

**Try making sure you know what a term means before criticizing someone's use of it. Zuko's an anti-hero alright, you just don't know what H2P means by it. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*I believe the definition of "anti-hero" is someone who comes in conflict with the hero or has particularly anti-heroic character traits, or traits that aren't generally associated with the hero. As of season two, Zuko has had virtually no conflict with the gaang, ruling him out as someone who goes against the hero. This season, he has also been presented as a basically honorable person, not someone without a moral code. Yes, I could have taken H2P's meaning the wrong way, but with the use of that word, that's how it came across to me. Just sayin'.

And, once again, I'm REALLY not trying to start something, but I don't appreciate your insulting my intelligence. Contrary to popular belief here, I'm NOT stupid.

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am expressing frustration over your insistence on a subject that you obviously do not possess complete knowledge of. An anti-hero is not one who goes against the hero of a series-that's the villain, or antagonist. An anti-hero is a protagonist or hero of a story that possesses particularly unheroic traits-a bank robber could be the hero of his own story, for example, but he's not a very heroic person. Zuko has certainly expressed unheroic qualities throughout the series but has, of late, been cast in the role of a protagonist. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*Like I said, Zuko was introduced as an antogonist. Depending on what qualities you take to be anti-heroic, yes, Zuko could be considered the anti-hero, which is why I say that I could have taken H2P's comment the wrong way. But in MY mind, Zuko isn't the anti-hero (I'm speaking of season two, not season one, by the way), so I don't exactly consider it fair to lable him as such. Think of it this way: Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The main character, Squall Leonhart, was the reluctant leader/protagonist, but that didn't make him the anti-hero, despite his obvious (if few) anti-heroic qualities. If you look up "anti-hero", you'll probably find that the anti-hero is someone who goes against the hero OR has particularly anti-heroic character traits. I've already stated that. And I'm not exactly dumb on the subject of literary terms, so don't say that I don't possess knowledge of them. Please don't think me arrogant, but as an author, I intend to major in literature and creative writing, so I DO have prior knowledge about these things...especially when the elements of fantasy and story and character construction are involoved, such as with the term "anti-hero"...But we've completely gotten off topic anyway. *shrugs* Oh well.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

*Okay, please just look at wiki's article on the [[anti-hero]] and explain to me how Zuko doesn't fit it. He's been a protagonist in various instances, right? Okay, so he's been the hero. Now, has he done stuff that's not heroic? Well, he's resorted to robbing and beating people up to get what he wants, so yes. And this happens in season two. Zuko has, indeed, shown that he can be a very honorable person, for instance by defending the town in "Zuko Alone" and refusing to steal from a pregnant woman. An anti-hero is not a scum-bag, okay? Let's not take the term too far. As the wiki states, the anti-hero is basically Batman: working for the greater cause through often unchivalrous ways. Now, Zuko supposedly freed Appa in "Lake Laogai", right? He's a hero for that. But why did he go there in the first place? To try to find a way to capture Aang. An anti-hero is known for achieving heroic ends through non-heroic means or intent, and Zuko has done that on various occasions. Not just in season two, either: remember that he first donned the identity of the Blue Spirit in order to save Aang from Zhao (heroic) so that he could capture him later (anti-heroic). [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 03:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

*Okay. I'll give ya that. I suppose it's partially my fault; I admit to always being biased in Zuko's favor, because he's my favorite character. I just dislike the term "anti-hero". To me, anti-hero, (although it CAN be applied to Zuko in the way in which you've said), though it isn't necessarily the exact meaning, is generally taken to mean something bad. I don't consider Zuko the anti-hero, because he's obviously meant to be taken as a basically honorable person. Actually, if you analyze Zuko's very animation, he has physical traits that are associated with gallantry in anime.[[User:208.122.69.38|208.122.69.38]] 15:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

== Relationship with Jin Picture ==

The segment is about Zuko and his relation to Jin, but the picture doesn't show Jin's face at all. May I recommend the picture in the "[[Tales of Ba Sing Se]]" episode? It shows how Zuko feels awkward towards her and how major Jin's crush on him is. --[[User:Andrelius|Andrelius]], 5:19 am, October 1 (UTC) (UTC means GMT 0 right?)

== The blue streaks... ==

In the Jet section of Zuko's relationship article, I noticed that there is a sentece that reads like this: "Some believe the light streaks from the tip of his broadswords are lightning--this is not so. When he slashes his swords through the air, the streaks are simply a trail of light from the sword" This is blasphemy. A mere "trail of light" would not be able to slice the toothpick in Jet's mouth clean in half. Also note that the blue streaks had only come from Zuko's blades later on in the fight moments before the police had arrived, and how it was emphasized when first shown cutting Jet's toothpick. The streaks that were shown early in the fight were clear and white, as opposed to the clearly blue-edged lights that eventually began to emit from Zuko's broad-swords. I don't know where anyone comes off saying that these were "simply a trail of light"; the only explanation is that this is either blue flame or lightning. Don't forget that as of recently Zuko's personality hs changed from being arrogant and angered to noticeably more calm and collected as if in control of his emotions better, which is what a firebender requires to bend lightning. Unless of course there is some sort of official material that states otherwise, I suggest the thory of lightning stays a primary possibility, as the light was far too distictive to be just an after-image of some kind.
:You're an idiot. Jet's weapons did the same thing, go rewatch it and stop speculating your secret fetish of Zuko. It's eye candy, not lightning, not blue fire, eye candy. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 08:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

::That's precisely what I did before even typing this article, and I clearly saw that only Zuko's blade's emmitted that blue light. The closest time I saw to Jet's blades making that similar light were when Zuko was slashing on the left and/or right of the screen. I based this article on observation, not fanboyism like your little reply seemed to assume. It is as they say, an assumption will make you an "ass" and the "ump" will "tion" you, and right now, you're that ass.
:::Quite frankly...prove it. You want to add something, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. And, anyway, I'd say blue fire seems more likely than lightening, since what we’ve seen of lighting requires a lot of fairly visible hand motions. Also, I'd encourage EVERYBODY (yes, you were both wrong) to cut out the name calling. And no, that somebody did it first doesn’t make it OK.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 19:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
::::I believe my opening statement was proof enough that there is at least more to the streaks than just special effects. Whether it was either blue flames or lightning in particular isn't what I'm getting at, just that it's more than likely one or the other; perhaps a form of foreshadowing. My goal isn't to add this thought to the actual Wiki, but just to get my point across that, as I said before, it's pretty far-fetched to think that such a disticntive blue light was just an after-effect if it could slice a solid object—as thin as that particular object may have been—in half.
:::::I've been told to smile more and be nicer in my corrections so here: [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg Jet creating spark]. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight2.jpg Twice]. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jettoothpick.jpg here]. As you can see, it's an after image used for eye candy because the scene itself is so dark. What happens on the side view is that the light created moves like a C. but a sideview of a C is just a straight line so it looks like the streak is cutting it but in fact the streak never touches the twig in Jet's mouth. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 23:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

*Actually, I've looked at the screen caps, and they're right. The tooth pick doesn't break until several seconds AFTER Zuko's sword goes by (I admit, I didn't notice when watching the show, I had to check the captures). I don't think it's lightning though. More likely, it's just blue flames, a hotter form of his usual Firebending.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
:That still ignores the problem that Jet's sword had the same effect. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg This image], linked by H2P up a bit, shows that pretty clearly. I'd credit any weirdness with the toothpick's falling to the general weirdness of that scene's animation.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

*Well, yeah, but I think the dialogue kinda implies that Zuko was Firebending, because immediately after the sword went by and the toothpick broke, Jet leapt back and said, "Ya see that? The Fire Nation's trying to silence me!", as if he'd seen Zuko bending, and assumed that the onlookers had seen as well. A different shot of the light/sword cutting the toothpick can be seen here. [http://www.firebender.com/e14/images/fb0307.jpg] But, again, it CAN be accredited to this scene's odd animation.[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

**The reason Jet said that was because Zuko reacted to Jet's comments ("Bet you wish he'd help you out with a little fire blast, huh?" and such) by coming about two inches from slicing his nose off. Note that Jet was looking for some sign, ANY sign, that Zuko was a Firebender, so he could've been referring to anything about him. It wouldn't make sense for him to point out a flash of light from the tip of Zuko's sword if his own weapons produced the same visual effect (especially considering Jet is probably far more familiar with his hook swords than a couple of swords Zuko pulled off a random Earth Kingdom soldier). The fight scene was dark, the animators needed some way to make it look flashier. So they stuck a couple of flashes of light in. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 02:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are people still arguing this? I clearly proved the theory wrong completely with just 3 pictures. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

* To H2P: I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it could go either or. The odd animation of that scene makes it hard to tell. To Y BCZ: Isn't it odd how no matter WHERE he is, Zuko ALWAYS has access to broadswords...?[[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 12:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

** The most likely reason Zuko keeps broadswords around is because he's good with them, and as long as he's in the Earth Kingdom, he needs a way to fight without firebending. [[User:Exhibit A|Exhibit A]] 16:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

***Actually, Zuko's broadswords weren't his originals-they're the ones he swiped off a random Earth Kingdom man early in Book 2. The swords he uses against Jet belong to an Earth Kingdom soldier (you can see the soldier is about to draw the swords, but Zuko just walks up behind him and snatches them out of the sheath). It's not too odd that two Earth Kingdom men out of the several hundred that Zuko and Iroh have come across happened to own twin broadswords, especially considering the location of the tea shop. A lot of their customers are probably soldiers stationed on the outer-most wall, and the Earth Kingdom's soldiers wield a very wide selection of weapons (as opposed to the Fire Nation's hordes of spearmen). Of course, this point doesn't really matter. What matters is we can't tell for sure (and several think it's doubtful) that Zuko Firebended in that scene. It's all speculation, therefore DON'T put it on the page. If Zuko says something like "Jet forced me to Firebend against him in that fight," then sure, go ahead. But as far as we know, Zuko hasn't learned blue Firebending or lightning yet. Note that the only time he's Firebended since was in Tales of Ba Sing Se, and then his flames were the normal orange. The point is this: you have no proof, stop arguing about it.

*Once again: Not arguing. I'm keeping all options open. But, agreed, until it's confirmed, keep it off the page.[[User:208.122.69.29|208.122.69.29]] 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
*:The option shouldn't be kept open! I've proved it wrong above, why won't anyone look at the damn pictures I posted? Here, I'll post them again: [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight.jpg Jet creating spark]. [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jetlight2.jpg Twice]. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen [http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c131/HeirToPendragon/jettoothpick.jpg here].
**This is really quite pointless to argue, H2P pretty much proved that the streaks aren't any type of bending with the pictures of Jet. I'm positive that the streaks are just afterimages of the sword ex. When you swing a sword really fast an afterimage is created when light is reflected of it. That's all it is, light. -Jammity 14:36 18 Nov.

== Requested Move ==
See [[Talk: Uncle Iroh#Requested move]] to discuss. Please do not discuss the move here, follow the link.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 21:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
==Personality Section==
It seems to me that the Personality section is a little... awkward? I don't know if someone wants to try integratting it better with the rest of the article, I was just passing through and noticed it left a little something to be desired grammatically, so I did my best giving it a makeover.[[User:Quantheory|Sean Patrick Santos]] 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

== Sokka ==

Are the details in the relationship between Sokka and Zuko important enough for there to be a section devoted to it? [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)+

I agree. I doubt that Zuko even notices that Sokka even exists. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]]

*Yeah...it isn't that important...but Zuko DOES know that Sokka exists. In "The Waterbending Scroll", Zuko told Katara that he wouldn't hurt her or HER BROTHER if she told him where Aang was. Just throwin' that in there. [[User:24.154.137.15|24.154.137.15]] 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Too, in the episode "Crossroads of Destiny" when Aang says he'll help get Zuko and Katara back,
Sokka says he isn't going to rescue Zuko at all. Then Iroh says there is good in him, and Sokka remarks tell us when it's outside him too. And Zuko knows who Sokka is because in the episodes, "The boy in the iceburg" he fights Sokka and beats him up.

== Personality Section: NPOV ==

"At first, Zuko lashes out and turns to robbery, even to those who are kind to him. However, over time, Zuko begins to calm himself and act in a better way"

A 'better' way?
<math>Insert formula here</math>

Um...I changed something on the trivia section. Lee/Li (however you want to spell it) also means "Strength" in Chinese. Its a Chinese boy's name. I got this information off of a Chinese baby name websight. -DJ[[User:Dragon Jadefire|Zutara and Taang FOREVER]] 04:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)(PS: My username is Dragon Jadefire, but I go by DJ)

== Lake Laogai spoilers ==

Should there be spoilers for Lake Laogai {and unaired episodes in general} in this article? Although there's a spoiler warning near the beginning, people might not expect unaired episode spoilers. --[[User:NoraBlack|NoraBlack]] 04:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Any canonical information that is available can be posted. There's hardly a difference in posting spoilers for episodes that haven't aired in one particular manner or another. Lake Laogai has aired on TurboNick instead of Nickelodeon, but there are quite a few episodes that are in the reverse situation. It's all the same to someone who has or hasn't seen it. -- [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

PICTURE OF ZUKO from Lake Laogai episode: Why doesn't someone update the picture of zuko to one from the Lake Laogai episode after it airs tonight? I would, but don't know how. Besides, he looks A LOT cooler with his hair longer. Sorta gangster-ish.

Sure, lets just update his picture every new episode then! [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean his hair has grown ''a lot'' longer since he firt had it cut. I'd go either way, but what does everyone else think? [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
::I'm hoping H2P's remark was sarcastic. If not, it's ridiculous. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|Gobble Gobble!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|Happy Thanksgiving!]]} 02:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Of course it was. Apparently people didn't see that. If we start changing his picture every time his hair grows we'll be changing it once a week. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 02:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I knew that. I was just testing you. [[Image:Wink.png|18px]] [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|Gobble Gobble!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|Happy Thanksgiving!]]} 03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::::Well, the pic from above looks like it was from "Zuko Alone," which was pretty early in the season. Now we're towards the end of the season, so isn't it time for an update? We don't have to change it every new episode. [[User:GdaMan|GdaMan]] 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC) GdaMan

*Well, while I agree it IS ridiculous to update pictures EVERY time an episode airs, it WOULD be more practical to post a Lake Laogai picture, taking into consideration that his hair has grown a considerable length with this episode.[[User:71.164.44.185|71.164.44.185]] 01:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven
*:Yeah but how long will it stay that way? he might cut it then we change it again. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 05:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
*Would you get a new one if he did cut it? [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 03:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
:My personal suggestion: update the picture, but only if we have a more recent picture that is of equal or better quality than the one that's there now.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 03:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
::You know, I was just thinking that we might even get a really good pic. from lake laogai (Just the way the camera looked at him), but maybe in some of the newer episodes will be as good as this one (I like it, but I think maybe it might be time for change). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 20:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Train Aang?==

I think that Zuko may be the one to train Aang in book 3. Since it is unlikely that he'll ever be able to return to the fire nation, his hatred of Azula, his slow change into a good guy, and Uncle Iroh helping him, he might decide to help Aang. What do you think?

:That's nice, but this isn't a forum. You want to discuss speculation, go to a forum. We only do facts on this web site, and this page is meant for changes to the associated page. Good day sir. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't a forum and all but I just want to point out Zuko isn't even done with HIS training. Iroh is still teaching him... So even if by some random conicidience he was taught by one of them, it would probably be Iroh.

For all we know, he ''could'' be a master, but there could be tecniqes he hasn't mastered yet (blue fire and lightning). It goes back to Ozai and Zhao being masters, yet hasn't been seen bending blue fire and/or lightning. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

=="Katara"==
I've removed the section entirely. I don't care if you like to pretend that Katara and Zuko are meant for each other. It's still not case, and there has been no indication whatsoever. Thus, there's little point to actually have the section and exempt Toph and Sokka beyond the insane delusions of shippers. [[User:Interrobamf|Interrobamf]] 10:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

:I don't know if you noticed or not, but there isn't a single word about any kind of romance in the section, or in the "Zuko" section of Katara's page. They have interacted enough to warrant a section on each others pages, and even if you disagree, that's the kind of thing that should be discussed first. [[User:Exhibit A|Exhibit A]] 16:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

::We both know well that the only reason those sections exist is due to "Zutara". Their interaction? They fought once over Aang, fought together with a bunch of other people against Azula (where they interacted as much Toph and Sokka did with Zuko), and talked about a necklace once. No, there needs to be far more than that. [[User:Interrobamf|Interrobamf]] 22:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm putting it back. Reasons or no, removing that big a hunk of text with no consensus to do so doesn't fly.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 00:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
::::I'm as adamantly against shipping on wp as anyone, but that chunk of text is not shipping. His relationship to Katara is worth noting if only for their great battle at the North Pole, where both of their improved skills were pitted against each other. As well, I am sure more information will come up later to be added to it. Whether or not they have any future, speculative romantic entaglements, they do have a [[interpersonal relationship|relationship]]. That said, at a glance, I suspect the section could be pruned a bit. Just do it with thought, rather than cutting the whole thing off. '''[[User:MrErku|Erk]]'''|[[User:MrErku|Talk]]|[http://www.rmxp.org homepage] 08:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he ever even say her name... ever? I've never heard any fire benders (besides like Jeong Jeong) say any of their names, they always say the Avatar and his friends and stuff.

:Now that I think about it, he never did say her name... weird...

::He still has a relationship, it's just a hate-hate relationship. The summerary also expresses "The Chase" when she wanted to help him. Also Zuko never says Zhao's name (i think...). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
:::He says Captain Zhao in episode 3 [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]]

Are we allowed to add information for future episodes which information has been confirmed. For instance could you add that they are trapped in a cave together in the upcoming episode? Or should we wait until it airs?
:We don't add anything about future episodes to characters biographies. You can add informationg given by the creators (and ONLY the creators) on the page for the future show. However, until it is canon it does not get added. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

== Season Two ==

I've made some efforts to condense the synopsis of Book Two slightly and make it flow better.. what does everyone think? [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 07:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks better. Not like the list that was there. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 14:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This reads so much better. I'm going to go ahead and remove the List to Prose statement. Now all we need to do is shorten it to a much more readable length and we'll be done with it. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that the season is over and I'm feeling caught up on everything, I'm going to make an effort to do some major pruning on this section... if I don't have it done by tonight it should be ready in the next day or two. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Finished updating the Book II section. It wound up as more of a trimming than a true pruning, but I got reid of a lot of needless details and tried to make the details of the important events more concise. (I think when I first copied it into Word it ran at more than 5 and a half pages, I managed to cut out about a page of that). If anyone wants to do further work on it, feel free. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]

==Firbending Master==
I noticed that someone has made Zuko a firebending master, even though it's just a title. When did that happen? And can we consider him a master?[[User:Boywonder18|Boywonder18]] 00:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I took it off and just let it say "Firebender". He's probably close to mastery, but I guess we'll have to see if he's ever refered to in the show as one. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 01:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This really needs to stop. "Master" is a title, a rank. You’re formally given that title by another Master (presumably your instructor.) Its not just "learn all these techniques and then you are a master." Think of it like a military promotion: whether or not you deserve to be a Corporal, you're still a Private until somebody promotes you. People need to stop editing this (and other) articles to claim people are masters who have never been given the title.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 21:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Nick Latin America has informed that he is indeed a Firebending Master, so, he in reality is.
:Thank you finally. Never do that again. Can we have a source please? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Try to find a spanish avatar clip with Zuko inside, often the word '''Maestrofuego''' which means firebending master can be heard, that should be enough proof and, what gives proof of Zhao being a firebending master.
:That is not a source. A source is needed. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't any spanish videos on youtube and my computer can't access turbonick so, try searching yourself but, what gives proof of other firebenders being masters.
:There is no mention of Zuko being a Fire Bending master in the show. Period. A link to an official site or an interview woukld probably be the only things. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 22:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See this link, it was edited a long time ago. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuko#Las_Capacidades
:As you can see, this is the English Wikipedia meaning we don't use the Spanish form of shows. I highly doubt it said he was even said at all in the Spanish version. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That means that Zuko needs to be called Firebending master, Exactly as it is written.[[User:Cpzphantom|Cpzphantom]] 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

==Jin and Song==

These two are listed under the realtionships section but are they really large enough characters to be there? They were both only there for one episdoe each. Jin I can inderstand because she was pretty much Zuko's first relationship even if she was only there for one episode. But Song? She hardly had a large enough role to be truly significant and her chances of being seen again are fairly low.
I think at least Song's section should be deleted. Anyone agree? [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:I've been wondering about Song for awhile. She seemed to have an effect about Zuko, as he learned about the troubles his people had inflicted upon innocents. However, he also met Lee's family during that time, and they aren't listed in the relationships section. Jin was there for only a few minutes, but the fact that they kissed does kind of play a big factor. I don't think we really need Song there anymore. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So is it agreed that we should delete Song's paragraph? Or does anyone protest to this? But if you do have a good reason why because once again, Song really isn't a huge part of Zuko's life anymore. [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:Don't get too far ahead of yourself, the subject only just came up an hour ago. Wait to hear other people's opinions. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:I see no reason for either of them, but I forsee Jin playing a role in upcoming episodes so, for now, I say we can leave her. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:I personally don't think Jin or anything or anyone else from Tales of Ba Sing Se will have any impact beyond that episode, but I'd be in favor of leaving her paragraph in the relationship section in, since a date is a notable event for Zuko. I think it might be best to just limit Song to the bit that is mentioned in the Book II section, however. That part seems to cover most of what there is to say between her and Zuko. [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]] 06:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't saying we delete just yet. Just seeing if anyone disagreed. Jin yes she might still play a major role. However Song I think is doubtful. [[User:69.141.78.155|69.141.78.155]] 20:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
== FA ==

Due to the fact that information on this page won't be updated for a good while, and due to the overall length and style of the article, I suggest that we clean this up just a bit more and then nominate it for FA status. In order to do this, though, we are going to need to cite many of the episodes as sources (similar to what I did to Waterbender a while back). I've cleaned a few unnecessary pictures from the page, the rest need proper citation (I don't think the Jet picture works all that well). I know we're all working real hard to nominate the main Avatar article, but if we get a chance we could easily convert this along with it. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:The biggest problem is that most of the article reads as an list of episode summarys. All of our project shall decend upon this aricle and make it worthy of Featured Articleness. [[User:Cnriaczoy42|Cnriaczoy42]] 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
::I just finished pruning through the history section (not sure if I hit the stuff prior to book 1). The problem is that the history is the story section and a story section is nothing more than episode summaries. I think I was able to remove all the very small details. I think his relationship with Jet (atleast, in the story section) is not needed but I did't remove it yet. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I'm new here, and would just like to say you might want to update his summary. You could mention the fact he's a tragic hero, and make it sound a bit more... interesting. That's all. 22:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how is he a tragic hero?--[[User:SUIT|'''SU''''''IT''']] 04:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
:Scroll up the Lengthness. I don't get why people don't see that. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 04:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
::By definition. "Tragic hero: a literary character who makes an error of judgment or has a fatal flaw that, combined with fate and external forces, brings on a tragedy." That's a direct quote from a dictionary. 02:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tragic hero? Hmmm, it seem to fit him, but what about anti-hero? Oooh! I got it! Tragic anti-hero!
My cat: You made that up!
Me: Hey, it seems to fit. [[User:66.45.175.101|66.45.175.101]] 20:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== Top Importance? ==

Why would one main character page be top importance over the others? I know this one may be the most detailed and longest, but tthis is importance. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 01:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

== Mai? ==

Should Mai still be in the character relationship. I remember others being taken out because of lack of depth and all it really mentions is Mai's apparent childhood crush on Zuko. Since Mai's appearance, there has been no interaction between the two and seeing how the season has ended, I think it's time it was taken down.
-[[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]]
:Why? Now that they're both in Ba Sing Se, and (you would think) in th same palace, there should be interaction. And they ''did'' interact in "Zuko Alone" (the whole "game" insident). [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Keeping it up just becase of speculation of what might happen is sort of fandom isn't? From my understanding, Relationships created because the characters had an impact on each other or there was consistent interaction throughtout the series. Aside from the flashback, there has been no interaction between the two, and even then, there wasn't enough substance to warrent a relationship. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 20:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed her, considering that they haven't interacted since their childhood and it played no role in who Zuko becomes. People in the relationships section should have some direct meaning to the character's character. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, and if Mai interacts with him in Book Three, we can always put her back on. [[User:Bagpipeturtle|Bagpipeturtle]] 17:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
::(*cries*) Well...I should have known this would happen after what happened to Haru...Oh well. I don't see how they ''can't'' have no intersection in book three anyway...so once agian I admit defeat. [[User:Momoroxmysoxoff|Momoroxmysoxoff]] 22:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

== Relationships Removal ==

This is just a personal opinion but I think the relationships aren't really needed for the character pages. It seems since the relationship pages were created, it has only sprouted more controversy on what is considered a relationship, and what is merely fandom. Add on to that, with a future season coming, there's only going to be more increase to that particular section.

The character pages (Mainly Zuko's and Aang's) are far too long and the character relationships is the only reasonable thing to cut out. And I personally think there already enough on the pages without relationships, to give anyone enough insight on the characters. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 20:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:...I disagree. The relationship between characters is one of the show's most prominent and important elements. Just think of how much Katara has affected Aang's actions, or Iroh has unfluenced Zuko. Those are very important aspects of the characters. Deleting those sections would be leaving out some essential information. Besides, I think taking out the relationship sections would cause even MORE controversy than already exists. [[User:Y BCZ|Y BCZ]] 22:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
::I agree with Y, but I think we need to reword them so that instead of just showing how they've interacted, show how they influenced the other. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 23:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:::What I was thinking was to use something along the lines of a Character Analysis. Because when you get right down to it, only a few characters on each list played a vital role in the respective character's evolution. Despite her small role, Jin played a major part in Zuko's season 2 development while Jet didn't really. [[User:Lionheart08|Lionheart08]] 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

==Original Research==

Almost this is entire page is original research. Please read [[WP:OR]] before adding things you have written yourself. Sources are needed to back up all statements on WP. - [[User:Ocatecir|Ocatecir]] 19:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:Yeah, I reverted your gutting of the article. The source is the show itself, which is well established practice. If you'd like to cite specific example of what you think are OR, fine, but don't think you're just going to wipe the article clean like that.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 20:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::This is what I also told Ocatecir on his user talk page. There is no OR, but it is a way too detailed character synopsis.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|竜龍]]) 01:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I just left a message on his talkpage. Which he immediately deleted. I think it's banhammer time. Or call one of the commitees. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 01:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Until I see some good faith effort to discuss the issue (for example, responding to rather than ignoring and deleting talk page comments) I'll just consider any attempt to remove that much content from the article vandalism and react accordingly. Don't really have much choice, if the other parties won't discuss anything...--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:I see he gave you the backspace treatment too. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 02:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
::Indeed. I don't really see what can be done, if every effort to discuss the issue is going to be ignored.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Frankly your responses turned me off to trying to argue with you, especially pacific coast highway's comments about abuse (and then banhammer time and committee? please. I know you're only 16 but please conduct yourself with a little maturity). I'm not going to argue with 15 editors who are obviously fans of a subject I know nothing about and treat your adherence to rules as an attack on them. The problem with arguing with webcomic/anime/podcast editors on wikipedia is they treat wikipedia as an all-inclusive resource instead of a wikipedia. So go ahead and revert this article to a 15 page long fansite, someone else later on down the line should clean it up though. There are plenty of other pages that need to be cleaned up to comply with wikipedia's guidelines that I don't need to be arguing here. I will simply move on. - [[User:Ocatecir|Ocatecir]] 02:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
::::So much for civility. And continuously ignoring/removing messages from your talkpage dosen't look good on your part either. [[User:Pacific Coast Highway|Pacific Coast Highway]] {[[User talk:Pacific Coast Highway|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pacific Coast Highway|contribs]]} 02:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::Is this guy kidding? Didn't we just have Torchic on the main page a few weeks back? [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
This sorely needs to be written with [[WP:FAC]] in mind. And it really needs citations. See [[List of FoxTrot family members]] for citing from the source - the page number and book is cited. Surely it can be done for this article? [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 09:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the [[Zuko#Personality|personality]] section is original resrach. Sentences like ''While initially the series' main antagonist, over time Zuko's continued development has shown him to be more like a bitter and complex young man'' are advancing a particular viewpoint, an interpretation, instead of just the facts, and thus require some kind of citation from an outside source. [[User:Hbdragon88|Hbdragon88]] 09:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

:The whole article is original research. ''Nothing'' is backed up by sources. I seriously hope you aren't serious about submitting this to FA or even GA with 0 references. Saying "the show is the reference itself" isn't good enough. I would fail this as a GA but i'm interested in what another editor thinks. [[User:M3tal H3ad|M3tal H3ad]] 11:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::And I direct you to [[Padme Amidala]] who's featured article status is backed up mostly, almost fully, but references to the movie and the books of the Star Wars universe. I see no difference except that we don't have many outside sources like reviews and interviews that we can actually use. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 14:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

== Alter Ego category? ==

should we add Zuko to the catagory of Fictional Characters with Alter Egos? Granted, there's no catagory with that name, and while he clearly doesn't have multiple personalities, like Conholio is to Beavis for example, the Blue Spirit is still an aspect of him.

<nowiki>[[Category:Alter egos]]</nowiki>

== GA review ==

This article has a lot of flaws and I'm going to fail it. The lead should summarize the entire article and be longer than two paragraphs for an article of this size (see [[WP:LEAD]]). The article doens't have any inline citations, which is should have. The article has a "original research" tag. I won't get into whether it is justified, but a good article should have resolves these issues. Articles should not contain trivia sections. Finally, the entire article is in-universe and should have out-of-universe information, such as how was the character created in the real world (see [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction)]]). --[[User:Maitch|Maitch]] 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
:We don't have that information. All the information we have about the character is presented. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

== Breath of Flame? ==

I was watching last nigh, and Iroh mentioned something about Zuko's Breath of Flame (?) not really sure what this is, but should it be included in the abilitis —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/71.80.121.174|71.80.121.174]] ([[User talk:71.80.121.174|talk]]) 03:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

"Breathe of Fire," to be precise, and, like the name implies, it's a talent where be breathes fire. According to the director commentary for the episode it's actually a real Yoga move (Albeit without real fire), and Zuko used it to heat himself up after going through the freezing water and ice during [[The Siege of the North]]. [[User:JBK405|JBK405]] 22:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Zuko's age ==

Zuko's age is listed as "16 (possibly 17 by book 2)" shouldn't the "possibly... " part be removed or is there reason to think this? I'm asking because it's been like that for a few days now. [[User:Cherries Jubilee|Cherries Jubilee]] 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
:Its actually been that way for quite a while, after a pretty major discussion on the subject ([[/Archive_1#Zuko.27s_age|here]].--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 17:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
::Removed it, stop re-adding it. Until he has a birthday we see he's 16 barring any confirmed information from the creators. [[User:Eban|Eban]] 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Sorry, no. Did you even bother reading that discussion I linked?--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 17:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It was mentioned in the begining of "The Avatar State" [[User:Xavcam|XAV]] 16:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

== Making this a featured article discussion ==

Here's where we can discuss steps to making this a featured article. I'm currently in the process of adding sources to the article. I think that the season 1 and season 2's formats should match. I think we should condense what's in the season 2 section and take away the divisions to make it look like season 1. Thoughts? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:I like the divisions as they are. It would be hard to knock out the data because Zuko became such a main player in season 2. We could shorten it, but it should never be as short as Season 1. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
::Ok. you think we should keep the divisions by certain episodes though? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Well I like them the way they are, a lot of the episodes focus around one theme. Like the banishment period, the Ba Sing Se period, Alone, etc. I think what they really need is just clean up. Take away a lot of the fluff. I've done this multiple times but it always seems to come back. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Shouldn't both seasons have the same format though? I think one way or the other... -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think there's a perfectly logical reason for the differences, as in Season 1 most of the episodes where he's in it's just Zuko is making another attempt to capture Aang, without it having a greater significance to the character, or his role within the show. During Season 2, however, nearly episode has some occurrence or lends to the evolution of Zuko's character, which is a big reason for a slightly different format.[[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]

I think the biggest thing the article actually needs is a fairly brief paragraph at the start describing the world of Avatar, it's history and settings somewhat. One of the primary reasons the article didn't make Good Article status is because it was written in an "in universe" style, and it's true. I imagine someone who has never seen an Avatar episode stumbling onto the article and saying "Firebending? What the hell is Firebending?!!" and then leaving to read something else. If no one else wants to, I can get started on a section like that for the article.[[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]
:Well, I've given it a shot with adding that section. What does everyone think? [[User:Wandering Man|Wandering Man]]
*Question: Is it ok what I've been doing with the season 2 episodes and citing the episodes the specific part is on next where it says main article and not in the text? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 18:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:Nevermind, I did it by paragraph. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
*New topic, we need to shorten the article. Do Jin and Jet need spots in the relationships? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 23:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well they were a part of book 2 and they could be removed eventually. It is unlikely they will be seen in any future episodes. [[User:XAVCAMM|XAV]] 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jin made an impact on him, first thing with person... *goes to pause Yu-Gi-Oh in the other window* Jin appears to be the first person who had a kind of romantic relationship with and a person with whom he acted different to usual. She may not have been around for long but at the least she showed Zuko the kind of life he could have had if he chose to remain in Ba Sing Se as Lee. [[User:Cherries Jubilee|Cherries Jubilee]] 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess so. Perhaps Jet should be removed eventually he doesn't seem to have left a big impact on him. [[User:XAVCAMM|XAV]] 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:Jin Is 1st if either. You can see no effects of their date now and she was a one shot character. In my mind those have no place in a relationships section of a main character. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:We also need to take the Zuko and Jin picture out. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:I also propose to take the Katara section out. They haven't interacted enough for it to be there. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 21:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
:: Yeah I'm sure she's nice and all, but Jin really was a four-minute character in a considerably detached episode (notice how I didn't use "filler"). The creators have even stated that she's a one-shot and like several others, they'd like to bring her back but its unlikely. And yeah that Katara section was there long before they even had any substantial interaction (no that Zutara catalyst doesn't count, she said like 3 lines). Give ya five guesses why, rhymes with skipping. Though thanks to fanservice in the finale I think its kinda too late for that now. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
:::Katara really should stay. That whole thing in the caves was a pretty pivotal scene.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 01:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Eh, kinda forced. But like I said, its too late for that now. A relationship should truly be one that is continua and longlasting, not some dude that Mike, Bryan, and the rest thought that it'd be just be super-awesome for him to cross paths with. So ya'know, bye-bye Jet+Jin. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)
:::::Fyre, the thing is, look at the size of the article. I think after Jet and Jin, Katara is next. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 10:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::We shouldn't be removing stuff just to make it shorter. If something belongs there, it belongs there, no matter how long that means the article will be.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 15:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::: If only that were true, well for some occassions anyway. Its pretty much the opposite though, or at the very most has a profound effect. ~Father's Wish —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Father's Wish II|Father's Wish II]] ([[User talk:Father's Wish II|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Father's Wish II|contribs]]) 09:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
:::::::I'm just telling you what people are going to say when we nominate it. "It's too long for an article about a fictional character." They'll probably be right. Back to Jet and Jin. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think all relationships should be removed and any relevant information worked into the article. This way the personality section can be deleted and then rewritten as well. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 19:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
:Interesting. Where would we rework it into though? And why delete the personality section? -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::There isn't a purpose to the personality section. Their actions with the others is usually stated in the History section while how that person changes their personality should be in the personality section. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
:::We can't just have episode recaps the whole time. We need some other stuff! -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Again I refer you to [[Queen Amidala]] who has no relationships section and half the page is just story. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::Characteristics is personality, XD. BTW, we should notice that the page is 44 kb long. Zuko right now is 73. We've got some major cutting to do. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 01:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::We've been saying THAT all along. [[User:HeirToPendragon|H2P]] ([[User_talk:HeirToPendragon|Yell at me]] for [[Special:Contributions/HeirToPendragon|what I've done]]) 07:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Actually, not really. Some people think we don't need to cut. We need to come to a consensus. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 11:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
*I have a proposition to make. We take out the relationships, family, personality and maybe abilities section and work them into the rest of the article. We put them into the episode recaps making them less recap-y, and more insight into Zuko. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 19:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Note for everybody: we're still discussing this. [[WP:BOLD]] isn't a free pass to do whatever you want.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

: What contradciting policies was I using. WP:BOLD means that if an improvement can be made, then it doesn't need to be talked about. Also, two other people agreed that tose sections could go. I don't see how I was hurting anyone of anything by being Bold. [[User:The Placebo Effect|The Placebo Effect]] 21:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
::All of Wiki's policy's are contradicting. Yes, people agreed, but some didn't. Let's wait and get opinions on getting rid of relationships all together before taking any one out. -[[User:Dylan0513|Dylan0513]] 21:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Dylan's opinion's on policies aside (let's not go down that road again, OK?) acting unilaterally in the middle of a discussion is bad form. We have talk pages for a reason. Remember that [[WP:CONS]] is policy, too.--[[User:Fyre2387|Fyre2387]] ([[User talk:Fyre2387|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fyre2387|contribs]]) 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)