https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=E%5E%28nix%29Wikipedia - User contributions [en]2025-06-09T14:48:34ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.45.0-wmf.4https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=M_and_M_Direct&diff=940767073M and M Direct2020-02-14T14:00:27Z<p>E^(nix): </p>
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<div>{{short description|Online clothing store in the United Kingdom}}<br />
{{multiple issues|<br />
{{advert|date=September 2016}}<br />
{{news release|1=article|date=September 2016}}<br />
{{refimprove|date=September 2016}}<br />
{{Primary sources|date=July 2011}}<br />
}}<br />
{{Use dmy dates|date=October 2019}}<br />
{{Use British English|date=January 2013}}<br />
{{Infobox company|<br />
| name = MandM Direct<br />
| logo = MandM Direct.png<br />
| type = [[Private company|Private]]|<br />
| foundation = 1987<br />
| location = [[Leominster]], [[United Kingdom]]|<br />
| key_people = Mike Tomkins, [[Chairman]]<br />
| num_employees = 470<br />
| industry = Clothing Retail|<br />
| homepage = [https://www.mandmdirect.com/ www.mandmdirect.com]<br />
}}<br />
'''MandM Direct''' is an online clothing store in the [[United Kingdom]]. It sells its products over the internet and is the second largest online fashion retailer in the UK.<ref>Marcus Leroux. "MandM prepares for German expansion", ''[[The Times]]'', 18 January 2010.</ref> It specialises in buying clearance stock from manufacturers and selling at discounted prices. MandM Direct stocks nearly 200 brands including, [[adidas]], [[The Timberland Company|Timberland]], Diesel and [[Puma AG|Puma]].<ref>Neil Craven. "ONLINE STORE IS ALL THE FASHION IN A DOWNTURN", ''[[Mail On Sunday]]'', 6 June 2009.</ref><br />
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==History==<br />
The company was started as M and M Sports in 1987 when Mark Ellis and Martin Churchward were introduced by their [[Nike, Inc.|Nike]] representative [[Ken Mallender]]. The two founders started their careers with retail shops in Hereford and Stourbridge and joined forces to buy end-of-line clearance sports products.<br />
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The success of this led the pair to venture off into off-page advertising, with the first advert appearing in ''[[Shoot (advertising magazine)|SHOOT]]'' magazine in 1987. National press adverts followed in 1990 specifically offering clothing and footwear. As both men lived in the area a site in Leominster was purchased and the company was born.<br />
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In 1994 the business was transferred from [[Stourbridge]] to its current base in [[Leominster]], [[Herefordshire]]. Following a buy-out by private equity group [[ECI partners]] in 2004 the company’s identity changed to MandM Direct in order to reflect their move into selling fashion and lifestyle brands.<br />
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In 2007 US private equity group, TA Associates completed major investment and the logistics operation moved to new warehousing at [[Moreton-on-Lugg]], [[Herefordshire]]. 2009 saw expansion into Europe which led to German language and later French language sites being created.<ref>Direct Commerce "News Roundup", 2 July 2010</ref> In 2014, according to the reports, Danish fashion group Bestseller purchased MandM Direct Ltd for £140&nbsp;million ($235&nbsp;million)<ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bestseller-mandm/bestseller-to-buy-m-and-m-direct-for-up-to-140-mln-stg-idUSKBN0ER0J220140616|title=Bestseller to buy MandM Direct for up to 140 million pounds|date=16 June 2014|work=Reuters|access-date=31 October 2017}}</ref><br />
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The company was a back-of-the-shirt sponsor for [[Hereford United]].<br />
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==Location==<br />
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The company headquarters is in [[Leominster]], [[Herefordshire]], with the main warehouse facility being based at [[Moreton-on-Lugg]] just off the [[A49 road|A49]].<ref>{{cite web|title=M&M’s massive investment is a vote of confidence in county|url=http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/4248521.M_M___s_massive_investment_is_a_vote_of_confidence_in_county/|publisher=Hereford Times|accessdate=15 December 2013}}</ref><br />
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==Brands==<br />
{{div col}}<br />
* Asics<br />
* Jack and Jones<br />
* Board Angels<br />
* Kangaroo Poo<br />
* Mad Wax<br />
* Penguin<br />
* Onfire<br />
* Diesel<br />
* Trespass<br />
* [[adidas]]<br />
* [[Bench (British clothing brand)|Bench]]<br />
* Voi Jeans<br />
* [[Converse (shoe company)|Converse]]<br />
* UGG <br />
* Fred Perry<br />
* Firetrap<br />
* Animal<br />
* Puma<br />
* Lyle and Scott<br />
* [[Levi Strauss & Co]]<br />
* [[New Balance]]<br />
* Jack Wills<br />
* [[Hunter_Boot_Ltd|Hunter]]<br />
{{div col end}}<br />
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==References==<br />
<references /><br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.mandmdirect.com/ MandMDirect.com]<br />
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[[Category:Companies based in Herefordshire]]<br />
[[Category:Retail companies established in 1987]]<br />
[[Category:British brands]]<br />
[[Category:Online clothing retailers of the United Kingdom]]</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PostGIS&diff=95292439PostGIS2006-12-19T11:57:49Z<p>E^(nix): version update</p>
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<div>{{Infobox_Software |<br />
name = PostGIS|<br />
developer = [[Refractions Research]] |<br />
latest_release_version = 1.2.0|<br />
latest_release_date = [[December 08]], [[2006]] |<br />
operating_system = [[Linux|GNU/Linux]], [[Microsoft Windows|MS-Windows]], [[Mac OS X]], [[POSIX]] compliant systems |<br />
genre = [[Geographic information system]] |<br />
license = [[GNU General Public License|GPL]] |<br />
website = http://postgis.refractions.net |<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''PostGIS''' (/post'-jis/) is an open source [[geographic information system]] software program that adds support for geographic objects to the [[PostgreSQL]] object-relational database. PostGIS follows the [[Simple Features]] for SQL specification from the [[Open Geospatial Consortium]]. As such, PostGIS includes:<br />
<br />
* Geometry types for points, linestrings, polygons, multipoints, multilinestrings, multipolygons and geometrycollections.<br />
* Spatial predicates for determining the interactions of geometries using the 3x3 [[Egenhofer matrix]].<br />
* Spatial operators for determining geospatial measurements like area, distance, length and perimeter.<br />
* Spatial operators for determining geospatial set operations, like union, difference, symetric difference and buffers.<br />
* [[R-tree]] spatial indexes for high speed spatial querying.<br />
* Index selectivity support, to provide high performance query plans for mixed spatial/non-spatial queries.<br />
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The PostGIS implementation is based on "light-weight" geometries and indexes optimized to reduce disk and memory footprint. Using light-weight geometries helps servers increase the amount of data migrated up from physical disk storage into RAM, improving query performance substantially. <br />
<br />
The first version was released in 2001 by Refractions Research under the [[GNU General Public License]], and development has continued since then actively. In 2006, PostGIS was certified as a compliant Simple Features for SQL database by the Open Geospatial Consortium.<br />
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There are a large number of software products than can use PostGIS as a database backend, including:<br />
<br />
* [[Quantum GIS]]<br />
* [[UDig]]<br />
* [[GeoServer]]<br />
* [[MapServer]]<br />
* [[GRASS]]<br />
* [[Feature Manipulation Engine]]<br />
* Cadcorp SIS<br />
* Ionic Red Spider<br />
* [[OpenJUMP]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
{{portalpar|Free software}}<br />
* [http://postgis.refractions.net/ PostGIS]<br />
* [http://www.postgresql.org/ PostgreSQL]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Free GIS software]]<br />
<br />
[[de:PostGIS]]<br />
[[es:PostGIS]]<br />
[[fr:PostGIS]]<br />
[[it:PostGIS]]<br />
[[pl:PostGIS]]<br />
[[pt:PostGIS]]<br />
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{{free-software-stub}}</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24888530Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-06T11:11:12Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
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<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
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::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
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See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
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:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
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:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
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:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
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:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
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:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
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# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
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The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
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# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
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You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
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Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
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:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
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[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
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See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
<br />
If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Cleanup==<br />
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This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== predecessors ==<br />
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*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Rangerdude, do you have any informations about the reaction of the academic world towards DiLorenzo's work? Can you proof his reliability?<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem with your argument, E^nix, is that by ''selectively'' introducting the League of the South information you are attempting to sway the reader's perception of DiLorenzo depending on his or her opinion of that organization. That's not what Wikipedia is about - it's about allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind. Usually factual details about specific individuals or groups are placed on the article about them (in this case [[Thomas DiLorenzo]]) - not in the middle of texts in other articles where they are mentioned as a source. I notice you are new to wikipedia, and accordingly you should review [[WP:NPOV]] - a policy of this site that requires neutrality on issues such as these. The provision I quoted above is pertinent to this case as it prohibits the selective inclusion of facts with POV connotation - something your LOS reference violates. While it is fair and factual to mention the LOS on DiLorenzo's own article page, that piece of information is by no means what he's best known for (he's best known as an enconomist and Lincoln biographer) and in fact is a comparatively obscure and politically loaded piece of information about him. It would be the same problem if I were to go around to every single article James McPherson is quoted in and change it to "James McPherson, who is affiliated with a communist political party, ..." While it would be factual to note that, selectively choosing it alone as the main piece of information to include about McPherson would constitute POV promotion. Regarding your question about DiLorenzo's work, I can note that he is a widely published book author and has published several peer reviewed articles in academic journals. Books and scholarly journal articles are generally considered the two main indicators of credibility in academia. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for answering my question. But wouldn't it be better (more "matter-of-factly") to discuss the scientific dispute in the article instead of highlighting unreplied criticism? I guess there must be a dispute if DiLorenzo is writing books and is publishing scholarly journal articles. I think this would improve the article.<br />
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::[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually the criticism was part of a replied exchange between the two - DiLorenzo and McPherson. It happened about a year ago in North and South Magazine - one of the main Civil War history magazines in the U.S. DiLorenzo wrote an article for a series they did on Lincoln that emphasized the role of tariffs in the war, suggesting the south was unduly burdened by them. McPherson replied to it in the same issue by criticizing DiLorenzo's tariff arguments and asserting the north to have been the main tariff payer. In the next issue DiLorenzo replied to McPherson, critiquing his lack of statistical evidence and his lack of "even elementary economic theory" behind his assumptions. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 15:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Thank you, Rangerdude, for your last contribution. Well, I think we did a good job. It's much more informative now. I'm finishing my involvement in this article now.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 11:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Yet another sentence==<br />
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The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I disagree. Unless you can show that McPherson has scholarly credentials in the field of economics it is not valid to revise the article in a way that assumes that he does. Simply having a PhD. does not make somebody an economist or grant him experience in that field - their are thousands of PhD.'s out there in hundreds of different fields who have not picked up an economics textbook since high school, if even that. For all we know about McPherson at the time he has no formal scholarly credentials in the field of economics & thus it is not our place to speculate that he somehow picked them up during his career in a different field. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Why are we pointing out that he doesn't have those credentials? There are dozens of credentials that he doesn't have but we aren't mentioning those. Should we mention the lack in the article of every professor who has made some comment outside his main field? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Because his lack of economic training is the specific criticism made of McPherson's work by DiLorenzo. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 15:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::(he has none) concerns both, lack of formal scholarly credentials and lack of self trained economic expertness. We know about lack of formal scholarly credentials but we don't know about the actual economic erxpertness of McPherson. So the not fact supported sentence (he has none) had to be removed. Let's not point it out as Willmc says. Everything about McPhersons credentials is said in the head of the article. That's adequate information.<br />
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::[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Nowhere does the current version say anything either way about "self training" - it says specifically "scholarly credentials in economics" and McPherson simply does not have any - which is what DiLorenzo critiqued him for when McPherson attempted to conduct an economic analysis of trade in one of their exchanges in a well known Civil War magazine, North and South. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 15:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_M._McPherson&diff=24816790James M. McPherson2005-10-05T15:22:10Z<p>E^(nix): Does not have to be explicitely mentioned. That he has no scholarly credentials in economics follows from information given above</p>
<hr />
<div>:''For the Civil War General of the same name see [[James B. McPherson]]''<br />
<br />
'''James M. McPherson''' (born [[October 11]], [[1936]]) is an [[American Civil War]] [[historian]], and is the George Henry Davis '86 Professor of [[United States History]] at [[Princeton University]]. He received the [[Pulitzer Prize]] for ''Battle Cry of Freedom'', his most famous book. He was the president of the [[American Historical Association]] in [[2003]], and is a member of the editorial board of [[Encyclopædia Britannica]].<br />
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Born in [[Valley City, North Dakota|Valley City]], [[North Dakota]], he received his [[Bachelor of Arts]] at [[Gustavus Adolphus College]] ([[St. Peter, Minnesota|St. Peter]], [[Minnesota]]) in [[1958]] (from which he graduated ''cum laude''), and his [[Doctor of Philosophy|Ph.D.]] at [[Johns Hopkins University]] in [[1963]]. Currently he resides in [[Princeton, New Jersey|Princeton]], [[New Jersey]], and is divorced with one child. <br />
<br />
==Scholarship==<br />
McPherson's works include ''The Struggle for Equality'', awarded the [[Anisfield-Wolf Award]]. In [[1989]], he published his Pulitzer-winning book, ''Battle Cry of Freedom''. And in [[1998]] another book, ''For Cause and Comrades'', received the [[Lincoln Prize]]. In 2002 he published both a scholarly book, ''Crossroads of Freedom: Antietam 1862,'' and a history of the Civil War for children, ''Fields of Fury''. Unlike many other historians, he has a reputation of trying to make history accessible to the public. Most of his works are marketted to popular audiences and his book ''Battle Cry of Freedom'' has long been a popular one-volume general history of the Civil War.<br />
<br />
McPherson was named the "2000 Jefferson Lecturer in the Humanities" by the [[National Endowment for the Humanities]]. In making the announcement NEH Chairman William Ferris said:<br />
:James M. McPherson has helped millions of Americans better understand the meaning and legacy of the American Civil War. By establishing the highest standards for scholarship and public education about the Civil War and by providing leadership in the movement to protect the nation's battlefields, he has made an exceptional contribution to historical awareness in America.[http://www.neh.gov/news/archive/20000111.html]<br />
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McPherson is a proponent of [[revisionist history]]. "Revisionism," he argues, is "what makes history vital and meaningful"[http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm]<br />
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===Academic criticism===<br />
Some of his Civil War scholarship has come under criticism from [[economics|economist]] and [[Abraham Lincoln]] critic [[Thomas DiLorenzo]] for a perceived latent pro-North bias to his work and for exhibiting a [[liberal]] political bent. In particular he has critiqued McPherson's grasp of economic issues.[http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo58.html] According to DiLorenzo, McPherson often relies upon his own reputation as a well known Civil War historian rather than scholarly credentials in economics or qualified examination of statistical data to provide economic analysis that is erroneous. Another criticism by DiLorenzo includes the allegation that his work exhibits radical, [[Marxist]] tendencies.<br />
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==Politics & advocacy==<br />
McPherson is known for his outspokenness on contemporary issues and his activism, such as his work on behalf of the preservation of Civil War battlefields. As president in 1993-1994 of Protect Historic America, he lobbied against the construction of a commercial theme park at the [[Manassas]] battlefield. He has also served on the boards of the Civil War Trust and the Association for the Preservation of Civil War Sites, and on the Civil War Sites Advisory Committee.<br />
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In 1998, McPherson joined a group of scholars, most of them law professors, in supporting President [[Bill Clinton]] against [[impeachment]] charges during the [[Monica Lewinsky]] [[scandal]]. <br />
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As president of the American Historical Association (AHA), he used his regular "President's Column" in "Perspectives" to address a some of politically and socially-sensitive issues. He criticized the [[George W. Bush|Bush]] administration's doctrine of [[preemptive war]] in [[Iraq]], citing the examples the American Civil war and World War II. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0305/0305pre1.cfm] Responding to comments in 2003 when Bush and [[Condoleezza Rice]] criticized revisionist historians, McPherson accused the Bush Administration of using deceptive information to "justify an unprovoked invasion" of Iraq. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm] In another column, he detailed the "older forms [[affirmative action]]", such as the "old boys network", that helped people like him advance, and acknowledges that contemporary affirmative action, while imperfect, is less unjust than the old system. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0304/0304pre1.cfm]<br />
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The practice of espousing contemporary political beliefs in his columns drew backlash and criticism from several AHA members who wrote letters to the editor of "Perspectives". David F. Krein, of [[Scott Community College]] in Iowa, responded that McPherson "seems intent to use his 2003 term as AHA president as his own "bully pulpit" (as president of the AHA) to promote a personal political agenda" and "implore(d) him to stop" the politicization of his column "for the dignity of the profession" of historians.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let1.cfm] Don McArthur, of Maine South High School in Illinois, responded that McPherson's politics were "furthering a general public mistrust of academic historians" and requested that he "moderate his obviously intense political aversion to the (Bush) administration" when writing in official AHA publications.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let2.cfm] Martin J. Weiner, of [[Rice University]], described McPherson's columns as "the most unprofessional thing I have seen in 35 years of reading ''Perspectives,''" the AHA's newsletter in which they were published, and suggested the organization's Professional Division should consider McPherson's actions as an "abuse of his office."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let3.cfm]<br />
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In response, McPherson claimed that he received generally favorable "personal communications" from other members about his columns, stated that he was only giving his personal views, and argued that contemprorary politics is an appropriate field for the commentary of historians. He concluded by asking readers, "to decide whether my 'conclusions and arguments' are more or less likely 'to flow automatically from ideology rather than from evidence' than those of the Bush administration."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0311/0311let4.cfm]<br />
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McPherson has criticized those who defend the inclusion of Confederate imagery in state flags, such as Senator [[Trent Lott]]. He has also favored revisionary presentations at Civil War sites sites in the [[National Park Service]]. Actions such as these have led his critics such as DiLorenzo to charge him with politicizing the battlefields.[http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/005734.html]<br />
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McPherson has been interviewed in the World Socialist Web Site [http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/history/h-mcpher.shtml], a publication of a [[socialist]] political party. He has also published articles in [[liberal]] opinion magazine ''[[The Nation]]''. <br />
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===Democracy Now interview & UDC boycott===<br />
McPherson's political views have led to charges of [[bias]] against him and at least one [[boycott]] of his books. In [[1999]] McPherson drew the ire of Confederate genealogy groups when he and [[Ed Sebesta]] had an interview with [[Amy Goodman]] and [[Juan_Gonzalez_(journalist)|Juan Gonzalez]] on the [[liberal]] [[Pacifica Radio]] network's [[Democracy Now!]] program. The topic of the interview was then-candidate [[George W. Bush]]'s support for the Museum of the Confederacy. During the interview McPherson described the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] - two Civil War genealogical groups that are over one hundred years old - as neo-confederate groups. McPherson also stated:<br />
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:"I think, I agree a 100% with Ed Sebesta about the motives or the hidden agenda, not too, not too deeply hidden I think of such groups as the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. They are dedicated to celebrating the Confederacy and rather thinly veiled support for white supremacy. And I think that also is the again not very deeply hidden agenda of the Confederate flag issue in several southern states."<br />
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McPherson also remarked that board members of the [[Museum of the Confederacy]] in [[Richmond, Virginia]] were "undoubtedly neo-Confederate." These comments outraged members of the UDC and SCV, bringing condemnation of McPherson and causing boycott calls against his books.[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html] A year later McPherson responded to the boycott campaign by elaborating on his comments:<br />
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:"If I implied that all U.D.C. chapters or S.C.V. chapters or anyone who belongs to those is promoting a white-supremacist agenda, that's not what I meant to say," he said. "What I meant to say is that some of these people have a hidden agenda of white supremacy, (which) they might not even recognize they're involved in"<br />
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Members of the UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments. The Virginia UDC responded in their newsletter that "Far from apologizing for his baseless accusations of racism, (McPherson) has now added ignorance to the list of sins that we have committed." The groups continue to oppose McPherson. [http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html]<br />
<br />
==Bibliography==<br />
*''The struggle for equality; abolitionists and the Negro in the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1964.<br />
*''The Negro's Civil War; how American Negroes felt and acted during the war for the Union'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Pantheon Books, 1965.<br />
*''Marching toward freedom; the Negro in the Civil War, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Knopf, 1968, c1967.<br />
*''Blacks in America; bibliographical essays'', by James M. McPherson and others. 1st ed. Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1971.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, c1975.<br />
*''Region, race, and Reconstruction: essays in honor of C. Vann Woodward'', edited by J. Morgan Kousser and James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1982.<br />
*''Ordeal by fire: the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson.1st ed. New York: Knopf: Distributed by Random House, c1982.<br />
*''Lincoln and the strategy of unconditional surrender'', by James M. McPherson. Gettysburg, Pa: Gettysburg College, 1984.<br />
*''How Lincoln won the war with metaphors, by James M. McPherson. Fort Wayne, Ind.: Louis A. Warren Lincoln Library and Museum, 1985.<br />
*''Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1988.<br />
*''Battle chronicles of the Civil War'', by James McPherson, editor; Richard Gottlieb, managing editor. 6 vols. New York: Macmillan Pub. Co.; London: Collier Macmillan Publishers, c1989.<br />
*''Abraham Lincoln and the second American Revolution'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.<br />
*''American political leaders: from colonial times to the present'', by Steven G. O'Brien; editor, Paula McGuire; consulting editors, James M. McPherson, Gary Gerstle. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO, c1991.<br />
*''Why the Confederacy lost'', edited by Gabor S. Boritt ; essays by James M. McPherson ... [et al.]. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.<br />
*''What they fought for, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, c1994.<br />
*''The atlas of the Civil War'', edited by James M. McPherson. New York: Macmillan, c1994.<br />
*''"We cannot escape history": Lincoln and the last best hope of Earth'', edited by James M. McPherson. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1995.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', James M. McPherson. 2nd ed. with a new preface by the author. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1995.<br />
*''The American heritage new history of the Civil War'', narrated by Bruce Catton; edited and with a new introduction by James McPherson. New York: Viking, 1996.<br />
*''Drawn with the sword: reflections on the American Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.<br />
*''For cause and comrades: why men fought in the Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.<br />
*''Is blood thicker than water?: crises of nationalism in the modern world'', by James M. McPherson. Toronto: Vintage Canada, c1998.<br />
*''Personal memoirs of U.S. Grant'', by Ulysses S. Grant; with an introduction and notes by James M. McPherson. New York: Penguin Books, 1999.<br />
*''Encyclopedia of Civil War biographies'', edited by James M. McPherson. 3 vols. Armonk, NY: Sharpe Reference, c2000.<br />
*''Crossroads of freedom: Antietam'', by James M. McPherson. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2002.<br />
*''The boys in blue and gray'', written by James M. McPherson. New York: Atheneum Books for Young Readers, c2002.<br />
*''The illustrated Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, c2003.<br />
*''Hallowed ground: a walk at Gettysburg'', by James M. McPherson. 1st ed. New York: Crown Journeys, 2003.<br />
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==External links==<br />
<br />
*[http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/writer.asp?cid=627214 Barnes & Noble - Meet the Writers]<br />
*[http://history.princeton.edu/index.php?app=people&id=46 Princeton University Biography]<br />
*[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0412226&mode=thread&tid=5 ''Democracy Now'' November 3, 1999: George W. Bush and the Confederacy: Where Does He Stand?] <br />
*[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html Virginia UDC: Princeton Educator Maligns UDC]<br />
*[http://www.sierratimes.com/goldberg.htm James McPherson, Nihil Obstat] in the ''Sierra Times''<br />
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[[Category:1936 births|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:American historians|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:MacArthur Fellows|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:Pulitzer Prize winners|McPherson]]</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Willmcw~enwiki&diff=24801490User talk:Willmcw~enwiki2005-10-05T10:33:47Z<p>E^(nix): /* What do you think about User Rangerdude contributions? */</p>
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<div>*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive1]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive2]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive3]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive4]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive5]] July 2005<br />
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== RE: [[User:66.133.213.116]] ([[User talk:66.133.213.116|Talk]]) ==<br />
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Normally doesn't an admin go back through and delete all the External (commercial plugs) links that these guys ([[User:66.133.213.116]] ([[User talk:66.133.213.116|Talk]])) add? [[User:WikiDon|WikiDon]] 19:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, anyone can revert spam that doesn't significantly help the articles. Admins can do it a little more easily, when they have the time. ;) -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:29, August 2, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Not Spamming ==<br />
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Hi. Thank you for visiting me about your concern for spamming. I have been doing some additions about American Film Foundation, a non-profit production company run by Academy and Emmy award-winning filmmakers Terry Sanders and Freida Lee Mock. My understanding, and that of my wife ([[Designmotif]]), is that because their work is considerably valuable we have created the appropriate internal pages about them and their remarkable films because much of Wikipedia is lacking in information about them. We begun adding the articles in the hope that other users will contribute. And we've added specific external links where appropriate, linking directly to the films, many of which are difficult to find. The question of spamming is a good one, given that Amazon.com (IMDB site), Sony and other major commercial websites have been allowed to add their external links with no real reference to the pages they are added to either I might add. I'm getting very annoyed by the accusations of spamming. We are going by guidelines here. So I will return the page to it's previous condition, as it's not spamming. Please don't target American Film Foundation and their vast body of work as spam.<br />
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Thanks, [[User:JaimeyWB|JaimeyWB]] 06:22, 2 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[National Vanguard (American organization)]] ==<br />
<br />
Hey Will. Some anonymous user has been repeatedly deleting the statement that this article is referred to as a White supremacist organization. It would greatly help if you take a look at this article. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 18:16, 2 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks for pointing that out. I'll keep it on my watchlist. However I think that since "white nationalist" and "white supremacist" seem to be two names for the same thing, and since one is offensive while the other is (apprently) not, I'd suggest leaving it with "nationalist". On the [[White nationalist]] article you can clarify the relationship between the terms. "White supremacist" may be accurate but, as we saw with [[List of White supremacists]], it leads to editing problems. (Almost everyone on that list would object to being called a "supremacist" but would embrace "nationalist", I expect.) Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 18:25, August 2, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scoopex ==<br />
<br />
Thanks for the heads-up. I wasn't sure how to construe the claims of permission on the talk page, but after another, more-awake look, it appears that you're right. Zealously yours, [[User:NatusRoma|NatusRoma]] 02:05, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Wikipedia stalking==<br />
<br />
This user has been engaged in a stalking campiagn against me. I have to assume at this point that Willmcw is "Bill White", given his interest in posting personal details to the entry about me. I'm asking that this editor cease and desist from making any more edits to the entry about me. If this user persists, other measures will be taken. [[User:24.94.181.211|24.94.181.211]] 19:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:"You" meaning [[Chuck Munson]], aka [[user:Chuck0]]. The "personal details" you refer to include your educational background, which is standard biographical info, taken from your own blog. If you wish to keep this info private, you should not post it on the internet. Alternatively, if you wish, we can nominate your biography (and all the other articles on your projects that you posted) for deletion. However while they are here please do not censor information from them. They are not "your" articles. Please note that I have left numerous messages on the relevant talk pages regarding this issue which you have ignored. Regarding me being the same person as [[Bill White (activist)]], making such an assumption makes you appear to be ill-informed. Please be more careful before assuming things. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:49, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have every right to assume that you are Bill White and I will tell people on Wikipedia that you are the same person as long as you continue your obession with my entry. I have good reasons right now to prevent personal information out of my entries. In a few weeks, I probably won't care, but you need to learn to have some respect for a person's privacy. You may see this as a little hobby here on Wikipedia, but this information being on the Internet affects my ability TO PAY THE RENT AND EAT. Do you understand? [[User:Chuck0|Chuck0]] 22:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Hello [[User:Chuck0]], since you are blanking my notices on your talk page I will comment here. Whether or not you are in fact the same person as the one described in the [[Chuck Munson]] article, please stop removing information which is publicly available elsewhere on the internet from the Wikipedia biography, this is considered vandalism. [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 22:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::[[User:Chuck0|Chuck0]], can you please explain how posting the name of your alma mater prevents you from earning money? The same information that you have posted onto your own blog? I'm afraid that I do not understand how posting the info on your blog is harmless but posting it here damages your career. Again, if you do not want articles about yourself or your projects then we can nominate them for deletion (though there is no guarantee of how the vote will go). And, if any of the informaiton is wrong then we'd be happy to correct the information. However please don't simply delete it. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:33, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Chuckle ==<br />
''del "superhottie" based on blog vote -- unencyclopedic info'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_G._Roberts%2C_Jr.&curid=1928850&diff=20364924&oldid=20363632] -- You mean to tell me this was actually voted on? ;) [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 21:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In my view, only the three top superhottie judges should be noted. Otherwise we'll have partisans of all the contestants trying to spam is with the info. We've got to draw the line somewhere. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:41, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
I too have had numerous troubles with Bill White [[User:Steve Espinola| Steve Espinola]][[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 02:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== User Crosstar ==<br />
<br />
Hi will, I just wanted to let you know that [[User:Crosstar|Crosstar]] has begun to make legal threats against me. The edit summary of his last edit to my talk page was "Lawsuit anyone?", the contents of which you can read [[User talk:Kaldari|here]]. I'm beginning to run out of patience for his belligerence, but I'll wait and see what happens with the copyvio requests. Cheers. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 04:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Though he's hasn't said one way or another, the user is very likely to be Barrett or a deputy. The "movement" seems to comprise a few marches and speeches, and lot of lawsuits. I don't think it's really worth getting into a fight to keep the images. We can always post an arrow-star and say "it look like this but with a red background." I think that the logo-fair use exception to the copyright laws is sufficient, but since he objects so strenuously why fight it? The images don't reveal any particular truth, just Barrett's face and his silly, unoriginal logo. Well, ok, those are important truths. However, this is a long-term project. If we have to wait a dozen years to add his photo then that'll do too. Maybe we should delete the images for now and move to have him banned for legal threats. That'd remove both his cause and the disruption. But if you feel the images are important then I'd try to help. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:58, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Here are my thoughts on the issue: I think having the logo in the article is important. Having information available about hate groups and their tactics, symbols, etc is a valuable service to the public (although perhaps not Wikipedia's first priority). I think Crosstar doesn't have a leg to stand on legally (but I'm not a lawyer). Personally I think Crosstar knows this and is bluffing. If he's not bluffing, I think such a case would be an important legal precedent for Wikipedia (either way it turned out). I'm sure there would be no shortage of lawyers who would want to represent Wikipedia pro bono on the matter (maybe even Lessig). In short, I can't see a down side to fighting it out. BTW, I find it extremely ironic that an organization known for defending free speech is now trying flagrantly to repress it. If you feel strongly that a cooling-off period is the way to go, I can go along with that, although given Crosstar's apparent fanaticism, I doubt it would make much of a difference. I also have my doubts about banning him, given the Arbitration committee's reluctance to adequately reprimand problem users. Is it just me or do they always seem to give trolls a slap on the wrist? I suppose it's good to offer people a 2nd chance, but at what cost? But maybe that's just a poor impression from the last few RfAs I've followed. What do you think? [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 21:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Without delving into the RfA issue too much, I'd say that banning is not the right way after all. The policy against legal threats is weaker than I thought it was. So is Crosstar's case. In sum, I take back most or all of the advise I gave above and see the merit in working to retain as much verifiable information about this group as we can, whether the info be text or graphic. ("Verifiability" is the rub - Crosstar wrote all of the articles and we're still trying to bring them into proper shape.) Thanks for standing up for what's right, in the face of bullying. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:17, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== nationalist.org ==<br />
you've probably seen these, but just in case you haven't; [http://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia+site%3Anationalist.org&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official]<br />
--[[User:Duk|Duk]] 08:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Why do I feel as if we've been set up? Thanks for the info. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:44, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Also check this out: [http://www.skinheadz.com/news/articles/2005/jul/falls.html]. [[User:Alex756|&#8212; &copy; ]] [[User talk:Alex756| Alex756]] 15:30, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[Chuck Munson]]==<br />
Likes like [[User:Ruy Lopez]] has decided to edit-war on Chuck's behalf. Check it out. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 11:05, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I saw he VfD'ed [[Chuck Munson]], which could be interpreted as benefitting Chuck (Wikipedia).... Chuck didn't need help, but maybe [[User:Ruy Lopez]] will be more communicative than Chuck. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:41, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Lopez sure likes to "rv". Whew. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:53, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Pseudoscientific metrology]] ==<br />
<br />
You removed [[anti-metric movement]] from [[pseudoscience]]. Fair enough, but the issue is that the anti-metric movement seems to have spurred lots of pseudoscience of metrology (usually based on [[numerology]]). The purpose of which is of course to prove that the English foot has divine properties which can be traced with absolute accuracy back to Mesopotamia. Or Stonehenge (see [[Megalithic yard]]). -- [[User:Egil|Egil]] 13:48, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[Megalithic yard]] appears to be a clear pseudo-science. But the issues you mention are not included in the [[anti-metric]] article, and I don't think they are relevant. The article on [[metrology]] doesn't mention anything pseudoscientific, so it served just as a definition of a word that we could leave out. Thanks, for being reasonable. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:38, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I've now collected various material on [[Pseudoscientific metrology]] in general. Great fun, really. Seems that at least some of the recent activity is clearly [[anti-metric]]. I'd appreciate it if you would review it. -- [[User:Egil|Egil]] 12:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== To Willmcw from Aperey ==<br />
<br />
I have, for the moment, withdrawn from the editing war with Outerlimits and the organizations he is evidently representing. I think the section he is contributing so voluminously to -- and so unfairly to -- should be reverted, as you thought possible, to just after the article was opened up. Persistence and volubility do not mean one is telling the truth--only that one is better able to make one's version stick better. He is relying on false accusations to make his story look acceptable to you and others, and to bully the opposition and anyone who might agree with it. It is a fact that creationists quote Darwin to make their case--they do make Darwin look like an anti-religious lout and a dangerous man--but Darwin is still right and stands more for revererence than they do. The analogy is a pretty apt one, as Outerlimits has no shortage of quotes--only he is wrong in the impression he uses these quote to give. -- Arnold Perey<br />
<br />
:I'd have more sympathy for you if you were not the editor who started, without prior discussion, a major re-write of the agreed-upon section that we all worked on while protection was in place. The "trick" is not to outlast your opponent - the trick is to find a compromise which is acceptable to everyone (and then stick to it). Also, can you clarify is [[user:Ethiopianrunner]] is, or is not, one of your accounts. If it is, please do not use it to edit the same articles that you edit with the [[user:APerey]] account. Otherwise it makes it appear as if you are two separate people, which is misleading. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:10, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for the changes at [[Swami Kriyananda]] ==<br />
<br />
That link reorganization is intelligent and really cleans things up. --[[User:Jocosley|jocosley]] 00:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Biff Rose ==<br />
<br />
Huh? You write a good deal, but not very well. Shut up and let the words go on with the gooders. [[User:216.175.113.48|216.175.113.48]] 04:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Stormfront ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will. Just to let you know that the [http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/12081154.htm link] you left in the new "Controversies" section in [[Stormfront]] happens to be a secure website that creates an account for some online newspaper. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 07:59, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Tom Dooley (humanitarian)]] ==<br />
<br />
You removed the section on his humanitarian work, on the basis of a potential copyright violation. If this was because of its similarity to some of the text at http://www.freewebs.com/tomdooleyfund/ then I believe there is no violation: the author of that website was the contributor of the section and, although similar in factual content, the text was edited to be different. On that basis, will you object if I reinstate it? [[User:Fibula|Fibula]] 12:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Unfortunately I didn't note which site came up as having the same text. I believe it was probably the "freewebs" site, but their server is down so I can't tell for sure. Since you were the contributor does that mean that you are the author and copyright holder? Based on the small amount of text, and the lack of controversy over its inclusion, I wouldn't object to it being reinstated. However do be careful in the future. If you are uploading your own copyrighted texts then you might note in the edit summary that you are releasing it under GFDL so that future editors won't also assume them to be violations. Dooley was an interesting individual and I'm glad we have an article about him. Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:22, August 7, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sorry for spam... I notice you added a test note... ==<br />
<br />
I am currently in discussions with Ozemail regarding persistent vandalism that has been occuring from the following IP addresses in their network:<br />
<br />
<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.234}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.235}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.236}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.237}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.238}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.239}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.240}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.246}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.247}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.252}}<br />
<br />
I need assistance with all the specific items of vandalism. I have setup a page to gather this evidence at [[User:Ta bu shi da yu/Ozemail]].<br />
<br />
I need your help! Please use the format:<br />
<br />
* '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ta_bu_shi_da_yu&diff=20311223&oldid=20311029 13:30, 5 August 2005]<br />
** Added abusive text to [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] user page<br />
<br />
We'll see just how good their service is at responding to this sort of thing - we should be supporting any company that assists us. Therefore, I'm hoping that the Wikipedia spirit of cooperation and immense amount of volunteers will help with tracking down vandal edits.<br />
<br />
If Ozemail gives a good response, we can use them as an example of a good ISP, and maybe even shame AOL into assisting us (we get lots of vandalism from them).<br />
<br />
[[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 01:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
==Falsified source==<br />
The quote[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Shockley&diff=20505538&oldid=20494878] you attribute to "[http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-spermbank23jun05,1,1795083.story Darwin's Engineer]," an article that you claim to know is not available online,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AWilliam_Shockley&diff=20505640&oldid=18051644] does not appear in that article. We both just want these pages to be the best they can, so that readers can come to them and say that that article is a model of neutrality and fairness --even though we all dislike these figure's views. --[[User:Nectarflowed|Nectarflowed]] [[User_talk:Nectarflowed|<sup>T</sup>]] 04:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC) (P.S., use bugmenot.com to bypass the free registration)<br />
<br />
:I know the article is not available online because I immediately checked it back when the issue came out. But it's in there. You'll have to go to the library. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:12, August 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::My mistake - I'd finally thrown out the magazine, and when I'd checked at the time the article was not available. I know I've seen that quote around somewhere. We'll find it. Thanks for being vigilant. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:15, August 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::Presume good faith. Cheers. [[User:Nskinsella|NSKinsella (Stephan Kinsella)]] 05:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Guy Montag again==<br />
<br />
Can you please block him for another break of the 3RR [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Guy_Montag_2].[[User:Heraclius|Heraclius]] 01:35, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I don't understand. I wasn't the one who violated the 3RR. How come when I violated it you blocked me, but here you just protect the page?[[User:Heraclius|Heraclius]] 03:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It looked to me as if you had violated the 3RR. Why don't you spend the time that you would have been blocked by trying to settle this dispute? If not, go write some new article. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Biff Rose ==<br />
<br />
I understand that you are trying to get the information out and avoid vandalism. Unfortunately in the case of Biff Rose, you merely take the words of his'fans' and not that of his detractors, casting some very useful information into the wastebasket. <br />
<br />
This makes the point that you are not editing as merely presenting your opinion. <br />
<br />
Rose has some very racist remarks on his website, has said them in live performances, clearing out whole rooms, and recorded the mon his records, as far back as 1974. He has been a proponent of anti semticism for some time.<br />
<br />
IT bears more research than a simple post on Rose's own messageboard. I understand you are on here trying to make the wiki a better space, and I applaud that effort, but please know, there are not only critics who manipulate and vandalize, but those who have the good intentions of extoling the truth about a person place or thing that they report on. Rose is indeed anti semitic and racist, as well as Misogynistic. It's in his lyrics, on his website, and in his performances, and has been for quite some time. PLease take a closer look, and realize that perhaps this information does equal the positive side of Biff Rose, and should be included in his wikipedia record.<br />
<br />
:Add whatever sourced material is available, positive or negative. But please do not remove information. That is just vandalism. You'll see that I haven't removed charges that his current websites have apparently anti-semitic material. They do. But that doesn't mean he didn't write some hit songs way back when. There's room for both. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:14, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vacay ==<br />
<br />
Blah! Not happy. Yesterday morning I was lying on the beach. Today I'm at my desk. Actually I'm wearing sandals today that still have sand in them. Thanks for the welcome back. I'll be leaving again in a couple weeks for Costa Rica, so I've got to work fast to get caught up around here. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 20:06, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Espinola?==<br />
It seems obvious I've stumbled into something, and I'm not sure what's going on. All I removed was an entry at [[User:Steve espinola]], which contained a personal attack and little else. Even if [[User:Steve espinola]] is a POV-pusher himself (and I'm not saying he is--I know nothing of this case), his userspace is still his own, and if he chooses to have it red, he shouldn't have it defaced by attacks on him. Best wishes, [[User:Meelar|Meelar]] [[User talk:Meelar|(talk)]] 21:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Normally I'd agree, but if it's a case of impersonating a (minor) celebrity, then I'd say that it is appropriate to somehow distinguish that the user is not the celebrity. I've left a second note on your page regarding a proposed solution for establishing who is who. Your help, as a disinterested party, would be appreciated. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My identity ==<br />
<br />
Yes I can prove that I am indeed Esteban "Steve" Espinola. I was born in Ciudad juarez in Mexico, in 1974. I received my green card at age 11 with my parents emigrating to the United States.<br />
<br />
But you know what, why do I have to prove anything to you? You mess with my user page, and I don't like it. Leave me out of your petty indignation, look at my history, Biff Rose, is but a fly on what I'm trying to do with Wikipedia.<br />
<br />
Please leave me alone. You are a troll, and I've alerted more people about you. If you erase this, then please leave my own user site alone!!!![[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 22:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Steve Espinola<br />
<br />
:Can you please add a statement to your user page or talk page to the effect that you are not the famous singer named Steve Espinola? That would clarify the matter. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:18, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Steve Espinola here ===<br />
<br />
YOu want me to say I am not a musicianm but I live and record in L.A.<br />
<br />
I think the 'famous' singer Steve Espinola maybe pranking you on my background.<br />
<br />
:The relevance is that the singer Steve Espinola is an associate of Biff Rose. By impersonating him you appear to be a friend making denigrating edits about Rose. The coincidence of names is rather far-fetched. If you clarify who you are then this won't be a problem. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:36, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
***********<br />
<br />
This is giving me a headache. I'm Biff Rose's friend Steve Espinola, a piano playing songwriter. I'm the guy who has been posting as "Sojambi Pinola," and made revisions to the Biff Rose page under that name. I don't usually email from SteveEspinola.com, as it forwards to my regular aol email. But if you send an email from my webpage I can respond from my aol, and prove it's the same guy. hmmm... I have some ideas.<br />
<br />
Someone with an email address similar to your name has written to a guy named Joe/P.Dickle, who is also a friend of Biff's, and Biff has forwarded these emails to me. I suspect that those emails are legit, but this vandal guy could have been impersonating you, so I dunno. ughhhhh.<br />
<br />
-[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] August 9, 2005<br />
<br />
:Yes, I did send some emails to him, originally to ascertain if the websites were real (they are pretty wild). So then you are also [[user:216.57.63.47]]? It seems plausible, as that is a NYC IP and the singer Espinola is supposed to live there. For me that is sufficient to establish identity. We are still trying to establish the identity of [[user:Steve espinola]] (small "e"), who now claims to be a Los Angeles musician from Mexico. Sorry for the hassles, but considering the situation it seems important to make clear that the editor who has been adding an apparently anti-Rose POV to the article is not the Espinola who is an associate of Rose. Whew. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:19, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I think both of you are making trouble. I'm exactly who I say I am, and have an earthlink account that I've used for years. But since this has developed, I'm worried about internet harrassment. Look at my other edits, and judge for yourself if I'm some vandal out to wreck this site, which I was invited to work on by a friend, and have done some strong edits for. I am Esteban 'Steve' Espinola, and I livei n Los Angeles. I play Norteno and Banda variants of the Ranchera style music. I do it professionally. Becasue of downtime I thought htis would eb a good way to help others, and create inroads into this excellent idea. I'm new to this place, but from what Ican tell, your behavior, in lauding me as some vandal, has in itself been libelous and vandal prone.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 01:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I haven't called you a vandal, I told [[user talk:Jonah Ayers]] that deleting material can be vandalism. I have called you a sock puppet, and I think you have picked this particular username to confuse other people, just as you used [[user:Biffrose]] previously. I think that you are also [[user:Dearth vader]], who made grossly fraudulent edits in order to disparage Rose,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association&diff=prev&oldid=18223074][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Adam_Carr/Documents1&diff=prev&oldid=18223766] and another edit attacking [[user:Sojambi Pinola]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sojambi_Pinola&diff=prev&oldid=18222939] I think you are also:<br />
:*[[user:216.175.116.151]], [[user:216.175.121.239]], [[user:216.175.116.198]], [[user:Biffrose]], [[user:Jonah Ayers]], [[user:Varg Virkennes]], [[user:Bad apple]], [[user:Mmmmmmbo]], [[user:Efrim walzer]], [[user:Steve espinola]], [[user:Peace through superior edits]]. <br />
:Most recently, I think you are [[user:Peter Pie]] who added a photo to [[Biff Rose]] just 3 minutes after you uploaded it with this username.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biff_Rose&diff=20652280&oldid=20639720][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Hit-9.jpg&oldid=20652154] I think you have some particular vendetta against Biff Rose, and have been deleting his achievements while adding unsupported and libellous accusations about him to this encyclopedia, and while attacking anyone who attempts to defend Rose. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:57, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
(revised answer) Indeed, I posted as 216.57.63.47. I was lazy. Sorry. (Is all time-stamping manual, by the way?)<br />
We are unlikely to "resolve" this "dispute" in a civil manner; It's not really a dispute, but a guy making trouble. Why is he doing it? Why do people commit crimes? All evidence suggests that the guy is a sociopath, or at least a guy bent on revenge. Unless I am missing something, his claims about posting as SE on Wikipedia are easily proven to be false. I don't think the other "Steve Espinola" posted on Wikipedia until this week, though he claims otherwise on his user page. That is to say, he did not post under that name, though he's obviously posted as some ten to twenty different people. By the way, I find it charming and kind that you referred to me as "famous." I have a humble following, though I've played with some better-known people.-[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] August 9, 2005<br />
<br />
:You can easily sign and date your talk page comments by typing four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end. I'm sorry if I've mislabelled you - not everyone wants to be famous, or is (beyond their Warhol-mandated fifteen minutes, of course). And I don't know if you're a friend or fan or what of Roses - I happened to see you conducted a taped interview with him so I assume you are some kind of associate. None of this would normally matter, but if you are a known associate of Rose's, and if another user comes along and uses the same name, then it it makes that choice of name appear intentionally misleading. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:58, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Harrasment by Willmcw==<br />
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I joined wikipedia the past week. Instead of being welcomed with open arms, as my friends who also joined recently, I was assaulted with accusations by this user. He called me things I had no idea about, and implied wrongdoing where there was none. He is a sockpuppet of Biff Rose, and is working agaisnt the guidelines of wikipedia. He tries to bully users, implying he has more power than he actually does. And he does not adhere to the wiki rules, he has indicated he would try to get me banned. He will deny this, as he has on my own user page. I didn't want to visit hiss page with this talk, but he keeps adding insulting and untrue things on my user discussion page. Willmcw is a SOCK PUPPET of Biff Rose, and has been posting on Rose's website, then posting Rose's words directly onto the wikipedia entry on Rose. BAD WIKI USER[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 00:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks for the welcome. What is a sock puppet? ok thanks[[User:Peter Pie|Peter Pie]] [[User:Peter Pie|Peter Pie]] 23:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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"Mexican Steve E", On your user page you claim you've been contributing to Wikipedia since September 2004. Here you say you are new. Which is it? Your story is not consistent.<br />
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[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] 9 August 2005<br />
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== Willmcw hasa sock puppet called Sojambi Pinola ==<br />
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It is you who very well seem to be serving as a sock puppet for biff rose. I have just joined this site. But when I went ot Biff Rose's website, I found you had posted to not only that site, but also to a friend of rose, in order to discredit anything I had written. But if you had stayed at the site long enough to look around, you would have found a host of lyrical postings to the tune of racist and anti semitic quotations. I'm exactly who I say I am, though I've noticed in all your attempts to identify me as someone other than myself, you have never fully identified yourself. Is sojambi pinola a sock puppet of your cerations, I think so. You keep attempting to control me, and yet I think it is very apparent you have completely disavowed the way of Wikipedia in your path to please Biff Rose, and keep things to his advantage on the posting. Read his lyrics, and look at his postings where he makes fun of the African American children whose faces he has just painted. Then try to deduce how my edits are truly vandalism, which you in fact did say, and then vandalized my own page, prompting meelar to fix it, and notify me of the action. You must stop harrassing me. Each of these has been sent to different editors and mediators to mark the trouble you have caused. You may be tenacious, but I am not going to stand for the unjust actions of a sock puppet who practices fascistic edits. This is supposed to be a place of learning, not of close minded ness. Listen to the songs of Biff rose. I hate that you equate me with people who would lie about him. I never have added anything that is not based in the facts of his websites, most notably the message board of biffrose.com and on biffrose.biz, and jewmanity.com. [[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Completely debased and defaming me. Terrible Wiki user<br />
P.S. Now willmcw has libeled my edits though he hasn't read the previous versions of what I've edited, and has claimed I did no editing whatsoever. Now they may have actual mistakes still inside, but I have actually fixed the more glaring misinformation and poor grammar. I think it is terrible to launch this kind of accusation. You are boorish and thuglike in your behavior, you realize that by smearing my name, more will believe you than me, and I will be tord assunder. Well it's not right, you are a diseervice to a grand idea, and I have alerted the editors and requested a mediation because you refuse to stop meddling in my user page.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:26, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== AMA request for assistance ==<br />
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I thought I'd let you know thisos one of the places I've gone to get help from the barrage of your insults and baseless accusations. Where haveI ever accused Rose of being a child molester? I have never made aany statement at all in that vein. I have called his lyrics anti semtic and racist, which I think you will find there is a strong dose of if you further inspected his site..well actually I believe you to be a friend of Rose's and working either in cahoots with or sock puppeting Sojambi Pinola. Who claims to be the only Steve Espinola in the world. I never claimed I was that Steve Espinola, but a resident of Hollywood, and a musician of norteno music. Anyhow, hopefully you will refrain from contacting me, or posting on my page, as we wait our mediation. But if you continue to post on my page insults and untruths and speculation and accusations I will be forced to reply on your page to what I surmise is a clever but wholly unfair way of discrediting me further. Leave off my page til the end of our mediation. I have noted with other mediators in subpages about this posting, so even if you erase it, it has been noted I posted this to you.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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A perusal of the actual claim by me says NOT that I am the only Steve Espinola, nor that there are "only four Steve Espinolas," but that there are "at least four Steve Espinolas." Willmcw makes a good point that if there is a Steve Espinola who is an associate of Biff Rose's (um, that would be me, and I can prove it to anyone who cares), then the claim of another Steve Espinola who is invested in Biff's biography is, to say the least, a little suspect. Willmcw seems like a perfectly decent person, trying to contribute in a positive way to a world community project. He's obviously deeply involved in this encyclopedia, with credits to prove it, and you'd have a hard time successfully defaming him. Why are you involving him in your vendetta? [[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] 13:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Thanks for your support ==<br />
[[Image:Janitor's bucket with mop.jpg|thumb|75px|right|'''The mop is mine!''']]<br />
Thank you for voting to support [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Malathion|my RFA]]. I've been promoted, and I promise to wield the mop with good faith, patience, and fairness... except when I'm exterminating vandals with the M-16 recoilless nuclear Gatling mop. --[[User:malathion|malathion]] [[User talk:malathion|<sup><b>talk</b></sup>]] 08:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Nablus again ==<br />
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Hi - Could you please re-lock [[Nablus]] and maintain this indefinitely until there is progress to your satisfaction on the discussion page? I found some activity overnight that seems to indicate a compromise has not been reached. Thanks [[User:Ramallite|Ramallite]] <sup><small><font color="DarkBlue">[[User_talk:Ramallite|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 13:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I see that [[User:Dbachmann]] is editing. He usually does a good job. Let's let him work and see if the outcome is acceptable to everyone. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 14:14, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== OMFG!!! Steve espinola !!! ==<br />
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OMFG!!!<br />
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I spent '''*hours*''' migrating September 2004 cleanup archives to the new system, and then I look at this [[Special:Contributions/Steve_espinola|espinola's contribution list]] and i go, ''wtf?! I migrated '''*all*''' those!'' I'm relatively new to wikipedia (started late July) and I don't know what to do, but it is incredibly frustrating :-) I think he outright vandalized some pages too (by deleting lots of good content), such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Canning_how-to&oldid=20671096 Canning revision].<br />
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Is there a wikified way of citing particular revisions? I just quote the entire URL.<br />
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[[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== The Mmmmmmbo Connection ==<br />
Holy carp [sic]!! The ''*other*'' guy who reverted several of my cleanup tags in articles that '''*seriously*''' needed work has a comment on Steve's talk page<br />
I think your version is great Mmmmmmbo<br />
It sort of beggars belief that they arent in on it, and since Mmmmbo's account is 5 days old and involved in several edit wars, I believe it might just be a shell for anonymity. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Citation ==<br />
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Thank you for your CCC citation. I'm pretty sure they don't qualify as [[White supremacist]]s however, based on [http://www.buildingdemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=47 your cite], and the definition of white supremacism. [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Ah, I just read [http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/CCCitizens.asp?xpicked=3&item=12], so I guess you were right again. Good job. [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:There are plenty of people who say unkind things about the CCC. Frankly, I'm unclear about the distinction, in the real world, between so-called white supremacists and white nationalists. In any case, they've been called both. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:25, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Its similar to the distinction between racism and racialism, more an intellectual or philosophical split than something that neatly divides. Basically, a white nationalist wants to run away and hide, or kick out minorities. A white supremacist wants to enslave/kill other races, and rule over them. So Hitler would be a White Supremacist, and [[white separatists]] would be white nationalist, in theory. In practice, individual people have their own opinions, and often neither they nor their organisation neatly fits into these catagories. I'm a bit surprised at the [[Council of Conservative Citizens]] being accused thusly, due to their ties to successful politicians, but whatever, your cites are good enough. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Espinola + Peter pie ==<br />
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Check out [[:Image:Hit-9.jpg]]!! I found this ... a duplicate pic was put up by [[User:Peter Pie]] in the Biff Ross article. So, there are at least three sockpuppets with this guy. [[User:Sojambi Pinela]] [[User:Mmmmmmbo]] [[User:Peter Pie]] [[User:Steve espinola]]. All created since 4th August. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Func's RfA :) ==<br />
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Willmcw, I want to thank you for supporting my adminship, very much appreciated! :)<br />
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Please never hesitate to let me know if you have concerns with any administrative action I may make.<br />
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[[User:Func|Func]](&nbsp;[[User_talk:Func|t]],&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Func|c]],&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Func|e]],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&user=Func &nbsp;]&nbsp;) 18:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Mediation ==<br />
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Sorry I've been lax in responding to you guys. Are you ready to start mediation? [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 20:18, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Sure, thanks for asking. When last we tried to start the other party didn't want to use email as a communication method. I would like to any type of confidential, non-public mediation that can be arranged. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:27, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Harry Dexter White ==<br />
I would object to the inclusion of IHR materials on the [[Harry Dexter White]] article. There are other sources that can be used on the Morgenthau plan, namely the Morgenthau Diary. Why the exception in this case? [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:What exception? Why do you want to remove their link? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:11, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
*I stuck my nose in on this one and ditched the holocaust denier link. Holocaust denier sites are not reliable encyclopedic sources (except, of course, when discussing holocaust denial.) --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 01:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::That may be so, but until we're sure that we've remoevd all of the information sourced from it, and from other publications by Kubek, I think it should stay. To present their POV without giving any hint of its source would be misleading. Quite a number of assertions use the "Morgenthau Diaries" as their source, but without specifying if they are relying on Kubek's 81-page introduction or the actual source material. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:31, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Then that's the exception Nobs01 was asking about. On general principle, I delete ihr.org links on sight. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 01:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::Thanks jpgordon; excerpts from the Morganthau Diary may be available and would be a much more authorive source. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::Willmcw: Also, I will do a reversion to the original article if there is a question regarding the insertions of the alleged sockpuppet Coqsportif. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Dinsmore Alter ==<br />
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:Nice work on Dinsmore Alter. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
Thanks mate, much appreciated. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 23:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Many Thanks==<br />
Thanks for supporting my RFA. It couldn't have happened without your effort. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 17:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[Wikipedia:Stalking]] ==<br />
<br />
I agree with you entirely that this is not a semi policy and that the new version of the [[template:guideline]] template doesn't work since it has not been accepted by community consensus, instead I put back in a version that I use every once in awhile [[user:Jtkiefer/guideline]] it is more like the old guideline template and I think the wording fits, if you disagree I'm always up for discussions on it but I think that the wording of this fits. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:39, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::That'll work great once this essay is accepted by the community as a guideline. However that has not happened yet, that I am aware of. Please see the steps at [[Wikipedia:How to create policy]]. Unitl is has been approved, it is not a guideline. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:41, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Fair enough, if you have any idea on how best to word it to make it a good guideline please don't hesitate to leave a message on the page's talk page, my talk page, or just make the edit yourself, it seems to change quite a bit with every person who edits it which is another reason why it probably isn't ready to be a guideline yet. Thanks. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:51, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I also left a little note at [[Wikipedia_talk:Stalking#guideline_tag]] about probably not using it until after the community has noticed and accepted it since as far as I know most of wikipedia hasn't even noticed that it exists yet. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:57, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Admin powers==<br />
Cool. Admins can tracelessly undo calls for votes for deletion. Must the crackpot [[Liquid Nitrogen Economy]] article be sheltered from a VfD for some deep Wikipedian reason? I think the article needs more scrutiny and I also think it's not an appropriate encyclopedia topic; this article is now the (Web) world authority on the topic (mostly because no-one elese is considering wholesale substititution of liquid nitrogen for oil except my esteemed co-editor pcrabb). --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] 17:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:A: I don't know what you're talking about. B: Admins cannot do anything "tracelessly" that I am aware of. C: Nobody is suggesting replacing oil with Nitrogen, it's only a storage medium like a battery. It is no more "crackpot" than using Hydrogen for the same purpose. D: If you don't like the article then you are free to VfD it. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 17:43, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
::A - Sorry, then, my mistake.<br />
::B - Noted. <br />
::C - The article says ''a future economy in which the primary form of energy storage and transport is liquid Nitrogen'' and refers to the oil crunch later. It is more ..let's say ''impractical'' than hydrogen becaue of the huge losses inherent in making liquid nitrogen.<br />
::D - Done! (again) Thanks for your interest. --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] 22:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==John W. Ratcliff==<br />
Thank you for your kind words in your reminder about the 3RR. I will not make any more reverts to that page for the next 24 hours. (Editing for accuracy and clarity is still okay, no?) Obviously, the page is being pulled in three directions. We would still like a ruling on Wikipedia's policies regarding the use of that profanity-laden quote on the controversy section, if you get the time. Personally, I think its inclusion makes the article less NPOV than its exclusion would. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 19:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[:Category:Puerto Rican people]] ==<br />
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Hi, thanks for re-adding the cats, I had forgot about them. We were still trying to decide whether or not to keep it, so I added the desc text for now. Thanks again. <font color=#FF0033>[[Special:Contributions/Who|&infin;]]</font>[[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 20:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*Hi, I just saw your note on [[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]]'s page on [[Walter Mercado]]. Yea, I try to at least find cats for the orphaned ones, or add {{tl|CatNeeded}}, if I can think of one of the top of my head, then I will try to add it. I also fix errors as I go, so its a little better than a bot doing it, but there are always going to be some stragglers and mistakes, especially with the mass re-cats. I don't expect someone else to have to cleanup the mess, but I do realize other users monitor the articles, and feel confident that another cat will be added eventually. With some of these, I fealt that the list would suffice.I have added cats that article. Thanks for the comments, I try my best to categorize properly. <font color=#FF0033>[[Special:Contributions/Who|&infin;]]</font>[[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 09:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Question re: categories ==<br />
<br />
Hi there! Is it possible to somehow automatically include all items in, say, [[:Category:Streets in California]], [[:Category:Streets in Manhattan]], and so forth, as items in [[:Category:Streets]]? It seems like there's got to be an established procedure for this, but I'm at a loss. Thanks for any help.<br />
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[[User:IP 66.173.44.202|IP 66.173.44.202]] 01:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Bioconservatism ==<br />
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Please see my question at [[Talk:Bioconservatism#Conservatism?]]. Thanks -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:40, August 17, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Comment on my discussion page==<br />
<br />
I am unsure why you felt compelled to comment on my discussion page. I deleted [[user:JamesMLane]]'s "warning" because he is a POV warrior and his "warning" was just part of a concerted an effort to harrass anyone who tries to introduce NPOV on the pages of liberal politicians. In this case it was the [[Ted_Kennedy]] page. I deleted a "warning about bad behavior" because there has been no bad behavior, at least on my part. [[user:JamesMLane]] writes on his user page that he is "hostile to the right wing." I am hardly right wing, but I certainly have felt the brunt of his hostility. --[[User:Agiantman|Agiantman]] 02:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:You deleted several warnings or commetns on your editing behavior. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:23, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== The Matt Slick article ==<br />
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There happens to be a small group of us all using COMCAST cable which is just about the entire EAST Coast that you plan to block. If you block all of COMCAST users you will block half the country using this ISP. :o) There are a group of us linked through comcast, now I do wonder how you plan to handle blocking the three different users with internet cable using COMCAST accounts? As for frauds, and liars that should not be editing on Wikipedia? We are documenting every bit of this article and the fact that the edit of this wikipedia article has been turned over to a group pushing their propaganda with their POV edits being permitted. I found other users, a Lillian, that also tried to edit... You have ignored the rules of Wikipedia Mr. Willmcw, it is documented time and again in the discussion and history that you handed this over to hyperbole who is known to participate in a CARM 'hate'site and is using this web article to defame Mr. Slick. Any idiot can see that your bias is hanging out and that the propaganda a.a.r.m. posters are using this article and they are using you..... I hope it is worth it to you.<br />
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:What do you mean by "us"? You claim to be a group? Please get one username per person and stick with them. Group accounts are not allowed. If there is more than one person using these IPs then then each should get a username. The current editing scenario makes it appear as if these IPs are being used by one person and will be treated as such until other arrangements are made. If you are one person then you may not user multiple accounts, [[Wikipedia:sock puppet|sock puppets]], to make it appear as more users. Using schemes to avoid our rules shows bad faith and may be punished by long-term blocking. Please follow Wikipedia policies and there won't be any problems. Since you claim to be many people I don't know who I've said what to, and who has said what to me. But whoever there is on the other end please be aware that the complaining, bitching, whining, pleading for punishment of your opponents, and legal threats are not conducive to civil editing. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:ps: On review I see that you are a part of a different pool of IPs, from a different ISP, than the problem user. My apologies. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Will, if you'll please check out the [[Matt Slick]] article now, you'll see a ridiculous and transparent attempt to get past the 3RR. Between the constant legal threats, personal attacks, knee-jerk reverts, and deceptive tactics of "Tom S 48"-slash-"Interested Party," (none of which I have to repeat here) I simply don't think this person can be worked with to make a good, NPOV article. I am fairly confident the person is here for one single reason: to remove evidence of criticism of CARM and Matt Slick. I think we agree that this evidence shouldn't be removed, and all attempts to work toward a version of the criticism acceptable to all parties (I've edited the thing ad nauseam) have failed. I am of the opinion that "Tom S 48" will be content with nothing other than a POV article in favor of Matt Slick. Can anything be done? --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 02:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:First off, don't worry. This is a long term project. Every article doesn't have to be correct and complete 100% of the time. None of them are. We just try to keep things moving forward. Part of our "ratchet" mechanism is the history function. No matter how badly an article is messed-up, just wait until the dust settles and then bring back the best prior version, incorporating worthwhile changes. It's like playing a video game and returning to your saved game. Hang in there.<br />
:Secondly, I don't really care much one way or the other about these articles, and my main interest is wikipeace. Somehow that seems to have translated into being a sort of referee. That's the least fun position on the playing field, but may be necessary. <br />
:Third, bad editors are not welcome, and eventually leave. Regarding [[user:Tom S 48]], he seems to have violated the 3RR, and has been brushing against it for days. Once it became apparent that he'd already been warned and cited in the past, I applied a short block. I didn't check your edits as carefully - I hope you haven't done so either. Many of us fall into that bad habit (see below). It's never successful, and almost always it's better just to wait a day if a second revert is needed. (write note to self).<br />
:Last, don't worry. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:27, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
::Take a look over at the [[CARM]] and [[Matt Slick]] pages, and you'll see that [[user:Tom S 48]] has returned as "Peggy Sue" and "Interested Party" in order to evade your block and continue reverting. This is after I spent the better part of an hour working constructively with a German Wikipedia moderator on rewriting the criticism section on [[CARM]] to meet Wikipedia's standards. I'm sorry to bother you with this, Will, and I'm sorry you got pulled into the middle, but this seems like a pretty blatant move to undermine your attempts to keep the peace... I really will try not to stress out about this, but it really does bother me when people try to wage information warfare by censoring anything that isn't complimentary to their group. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 23:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Trolling patronisation is unwanted by me and Rangerdude ==<br />
<br />
Keep it to yourself asshole! Quit stalking Rangerdude and allying yourself with troublemakers. [[User:Bigelow|Bigelow]] 08:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== A modest proposal ==<br />
<br />
I just came across the Wikistalking section on the village pump and from there to Rangerdudes talk-page. That's pretty horrible behaviour from his part! Have you considered starting an RfC? Ofcourse, I haven't seen both sides of this argument, but it seems to me he is way out of line. [[User:Gkhan|gkhan]] 09:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nice ==<br />
<br />
Thanks. ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 18:40, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Mark Weber of the IHR==<br />
<br />
Someone claiming to be Mark Weber of the [[Institute for Historical Review]] is complaining on the Talk: page there. Perhaps you would like to respond. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 20:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===RfAr===<br />
This is to notify you that a Request for Arbitration is being filed against yourself and SlimVirgin for harassment and wikistalking [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Question to Willmcw re: previous opposition to a Wikipedia guideline on stalking ==<br />
<br />
According to the following text by Willmcw posted on July 5th regarding the establishment of guideline provisions of the same purpose as this for wikistalking, he wrote:<br />
:A problem with this proposal is that it assumes bad faith on the part of the accused stalker. That seems entirely at odds with the overarching policy. It goes to the intent of the user, which is unknowable, rather than the value of the edits themselves. We already have a policy about personal attacks that covers incivility. If being simply being corrected is harassment then everybody on Wikipedia is continually harassed. If an editor is making substantive contributions in a civil manner it should not matter what articles are being edited. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] July 5, 2005 22:00 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AAssume_good_faith&diff=18218465&oldid=18217117] <br />
<br />
As these sentiments convey a position of opposition to the establishment of an anti-stalking guideline to reflect the Wales and Arbcom decisions, as is the purpose here, and as Willmcw is actively editing this guideline proposal and, of recent, denying his opposition to it, he is requested to clarify the above comments from last month, indicate if he still believes in them and if so in what way, and state whether he supports or opposes the guideline proposal that is the object of this discussion. Thank you. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 19:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:No, that text (why is it even here?) referred to your attempt to add wikistalking to an existing guideline, [[Wikipedia:assume good faith]]. Please stick to drafting and seeking approval for the current proposal, not a different proposal in a different place from a month ago. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Will - I'm asking you specific questions to clarify your position regarding this guideline proposal based on your previous expressed opposition to similar proposals. The statement from you that I quoted above expresses open hostility to the idea of having a wiki-stalking guideline provision. Since you have been engaged in heavy editing of this article after the proposal was anounced and since you opposed its provisions previously, it is in the interest of this discussion's participants to know whether you support or oppose the current item on the table. If you support it you should state so openly. If you oppose it then you should refrain from making major revisions to the proposal as they could be seen as attempts to weaken it, vandalize its text, and obstruct its consideration by the Wikipedia community. You're free to comment on this proposal, Will, and make good faith contributions to it but you are not free to disrupt or vandalize it with bad faith edits done for the purpose of disrupting its consideration. So I'll ask you once again, Will. '''(1) Do you support or oppose this proposal? (2) Do you or do you not still agree with the position you took on this subject in July as quoted above? (3) If you still agree please clarify in what way, and if you have changed your mind please indicate the reasons why.''' Thanks in advance for answering. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 22:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I would encourage Willmcw to continue to make reasonable edits and propose revisions to any new policy. He has generally shown a good grasp of how Wikipedia works (and should work), and I welcome his opinion and contributions. I say this even if he ''does'' oppose the policy&mdash;I don't pretend to read minds, and I don't want to. If he can temper or modify a new proposal to a form he believes will be more acceptable, that's probably a good thing.<br />
:::If Rangerdude is concerned that something important is being lost from the proposed policy, then he is free to separate out specific provisions to be considered independently. In many cases only parts of new proposed policy are eventually adopted; it's part of the consensus-building process here. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 12:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
====My ''wikistalking'' "crime"====<br />
From late July to early August I particpated in migrating the old cleanup archives to the [[:Category:Cleanup_by_month|new system]]. It entailed surveying thousands upon thousands of links of backlogged cleanup archives from July 2004 to July 2005 and deciding which needed to still be cleaned, etc. Days of work. I did probably 90% of the entire job myself; Beland did 1/2 of Sep 04 and some one else did the short months of Jan - March and the long one of June.<br />
<br />
A few days after I was finished, I decided to start cleaning articles. Howwever, it sort of blew the breathe out of me when I discovered that the Aug - October categories were vacant of articles. I soon discovered that a sockpuppet that had been vandalising [[Biff Rose]] repeatedly had summarily gone through the cleanup archives and frivously removing cleanup tags in virtually every article, vandalising every 10th article or so. So, I went down his contributions list one by one seeking to rectify the damage. Fortunately '''Willmcw''' had already taken care of about 75% of the articles; but had it not been for our combined '''wikistalking''' of this and other sockpuppets, the cleanup process would have been significantly hindered by vandals.<br />
<br />
I say this because time after time, at the very beginning of the conflict, before it had escalated, [some one who advocates a prohibition against wikistalking] had '''*obviously*''' wikistalked Willmcw and put on every sockpuppet talk page where Willmcw had excoricated him/them to obey wiki standards, [this person] the following rebuttal of willmcw...<br />
<br />
Exact quote:<br />
Greetings and welcome to wikipedia. Please excuse the rude treatment you've <br />
received from the administrator [Willmcw] ... You should not let a hostile <br />
reception deter you from participating here and I hope you will stay.<br />
<br />
Well, they did stay. In fact, they became emboldened. The operator of the sockpuppets '''*continuously*''' went to administrators complaining about how we were "harassing" them...different accounts would claim the same "advocate" and generally gave up all pretense of being unique users. During this time they started the vandalism of the cleanup pages.<br />
<br />
I do not contend that ''wikistalking'' is bad, and thus do not judge any one for having done so. All I'm saying is that having such a rule could '''*easily*''' backfire when vandals become emboldened as up above. ''Wikistalking'' seems to be the only way to track and correct some vandalisation and therefore if there would be such a thing as wikistalking it would have to be limited. Maybe to, say, following others around and hostily critiquing them with no evidence -- on other people's talk pages. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 14:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 400KB usertalk page ==<br />
<br />
Is quoting the KJV verbatim in the scope of 400 KB an abuse of wiki policies? Better run over to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Steve_espinola&oldid=21329823|Steve espinola's talk page]. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 14:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[User:Liftarn]] at [[List of political epithets]]==<br />
I have run into what I consider disruptive behaviour and [[WP:POINT]] at [[List of political epithets]]. In my view, [[User:Liftarn]] has been removing material and asking for citations for material which has already been cited, and has been insisting on citations exclusively for, and inserting NPOV notices in, Jewish-related epithets, when no citations have been provided for any of the other epithets on the page, and when he has raised no specific objections in Talk:. Could you possibly take a look? [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 15:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have actually not removed anything, it's just commented away awaiting citations (real ones, not invented). As Jayjg is pushing his POV in those areas it's ofcourse those areas that get attention for NPOVing. It should be noted that who first started requiering sources for everything was Jayjg. // [[User:Liftarn|Liftarn]]<br />
<br />
::I have to apologize to you both. Try though I might, I can't work up an interest in "Judeofascist, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi". I keep meaning to go take a look, but last time I went over there I got into topic instead. [[Talk:List of political epithets#Blue dog v Yellow dog]]. Sorry guys, you're on your own on this one. (However, without knowing all of the issues, my general perspective is that more sources are always better). Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 12:14, August 22, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Notice of reply to comment ==<br />
<br />
Notice of reply to your comment at another page- Please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scottperry#Barnstar_award More about sliced breaad...] Thanks: [[User:Scottperry|Scott P.]] 17:56:18, 2005-08-19 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whites ==<br />
<br />
Why did you revert my edits to [[Whites]]? The article as it stood was about an inch above utter nonsense, and is largely written from a racist POV. Did you actually read it before reaching for the rollback button? Are you aware of Wikipedia's policy on not describing people as "Whites" or "Blacks" but instead to use the colour words as adjectives? Do you think that lists of who's in and who's out have a place in Wikipedia? Are you not aware that in Arab countries, as an example, "whites" include people who would, without question, be considered "black" in other places? Do you know that in the current conflict in Sudan, as an example, the northern Arabs call themselves "whites" and the southern peoples "blacks", even though some of the Arabs are darker than some of the southerners? Do you know that in some places, notably in west Africa and India, people use skin lighteners to try to make themselves "white" (in other words, they see "whiteness" purely as a function of how pale your skin is, not anything to do with "Europeanness" -- in India they have been prizing "whiteness" since before they encountered Europeans). How is that conveyed by suggesting that "white" means that you come from Europe? This may be what it means where you come from but it doesn't mean it elsewhere. I rewrote the article to reflect that "white" is a purely relative construct and removed a lot of the ''completely unsourced'' nonsense that littered the article. An example of that is the suggestion that "White" implies "Anglo-Saxon" (which, I agree, in America it mostly does), which has nothing to do with "Anglo" (linked to Angeln!) and "Saxon" (linked to "Saxony"!). Well, "Anglo-Saxon" in this context means "deriving from England" and is used to describe the Anglophone, white colonial nations. There are people editing this article, Will, simply to insert '''their''' nationality into the list of "Whites". Are you supporting that? By reverting edits that tried to tone that down -- without any explanation -- you certainly seem to be. [[User:Clair de Lune|Clair de Lune]] 23:58, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Check this out: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tired_of_the_hate/tired_of_the_hate]<br />
<br />
This is [[User:Antonucc]], whose work you reverted to, Will. I'm astonished that you did that. [[User:Clair de Lune|Clair de Lune]] 00:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I misread part of your edit to [[Whites]], which made it appear like vandalism.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whites&diff=prev&oldid=21352272] On more careful reflection I see that it was not. I apologize for reverting your edit so hastily. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:25, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Good luck ==<br />
<br />
Sorry I wasn't of more help, and good luck in arbitration to you both. [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 02:05, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Alex Linder ==<br />
<br />
This article looks good to me. In my opinion, I see know gossip, then again that's just my thought. Anyway, looks like Alex Linder himself has been working here at Wikipedia as evidenced in this [http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=Wikipedia thread] I found at [[VNN]]. What do you think of that? Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 03:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for double checking. It;'d be typical if Linder is involved. These folks are only interested in editing articles about themselves, their friedns, and their enemies. It's hard to tell if the letter is from Linder himself, as he may just be reprinting this[http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&highlight=wikipedia]. Either way, [[user:Amalekite]] may be worth watching. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:07, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Reverting ==<br />
<br />
Thought you might be interested to know that Rangerdude is belatedly pointing out a potential violation of the three-revert rule on your part. See [[User talk:Rangerdude]]. --[[User:Michael Snow|Michael Snow]] 06:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Upon review of my edits I see that Rangerdude may well be correct. I'll report it over on 3RR. Thanks for mentioning it. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:46, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Now that I've looked more closely, I don't see it after all. <br />
:* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21238921&oldid=21231294 20:24, August 17, 2005] <br />
:* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21274020&oldid=21273741 07:18, August 18, 2005] <br />
:* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21274773&oldid=21274286 07:38, August 18, 2005]<br />
:* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21275068&oldid=21274991 07:46, August 18, 2005]<br />
:The first edit is labelled as a revert to another editor's version, and the other three are to conventional reverts. Of course, even two reverts is more than ideal. In any case I'll refrain from editing any of the articles that Rangerdude edits until the block clears - we both need a break from it. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:03, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Please check CARM pages history...slandering in history ==<br />
<br />
To Willwmc and Irmgard: List here a link to your talk. Hyperbole is lying in the history of CARM. Tom, Peggy, Interested Party, will give you our phone numbers to discuss the edits, and we told you they were slandererss on the aarm board and is why we were originally using only Interested Parties to sign. Now we ask that you remove the false accusations from the history edits of hyperbole, as we will give you our phone numbers and IP numbers and ask to speak with you on the phone in order to PROVE he is lying and that the three of us do live in New Jersey. Which is why we are editing with IP's and not signing on, he accuses all three of us constantly. Peggy00:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matt_Slick"<br />
Here is my email [email protected]. If you emai, I will give you the three telephone numbers to Tom, Peggy/Diane, Interested Party. I want no further accusations from hyperbole, enough is enough.00:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:''moved from [[User talk:Willmcw/archive4]]'' -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:39, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:As I said to you on one of your talk pages, here, [[User talk:68.44.255.244]]:<br />
:I'm not interested in playing games, talking on the telephone, or proving that anyone is lying. I am interested in achieving NPOV, comprehenisve, concise articles that summarize verifiable sources. I am interested in seeing editors working together collegially and with consensus. -Willmcw 00:20, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I'll add that if there is a specific factual mistake in the article then please describe it on the article talk page, with a source for the correction. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:42, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[Terrorism]]==<br />
Have you seen the nonsense going on a [[Terrorism]]? [[User:Zephram Stark]] and an IP sockpuppet parade have reverted the article over a dozen times now! [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 17:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Whoa==<br />
<br />
I see you everywhere I go here, and therefore, I give you this '''Barnstar of Diligence''' [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 23:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Image:Barnstar3.png]]<br />
<br />
Take care, [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 23:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Pejorative terrorism ==<br />
<br />
"It's not easy finding a two word phrase that generates zero Google hits, but that's one." LOL!! My mind instantly flew to theorist of conspiracies, but no, it's out there, independently of WP. Foucault was one, it seems. Figures. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 05:42, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:"Theorist of conspiracies" has a fine and noble history. "Pejorative terrorism", on the other hand, leaves me scratching my head even after having read the definition. At least Wikipedia continues to amuse and amaze. ;) Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:46, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::As [[User:Commodore Sloat|Commodore Sloat]] wrote: "Gee, looks like there was a pejorative-terrorist attack in Jordan today." ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 05:51, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==[[Bob Jones University]]==<br />
Why did you remove the link to the accrediting agency on [[Bob Jones University]]? I just corrected that link today. There was already a link to it but it was linked to an invalid Wikipedia article so I linked it to the appropriate external site. I'm not sure why you'd find it neccessary to remove a valid external link. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 06:18, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Why do we need a link to the homepage of an accrediting agency of a college in the first place? If we linked to the webpage that mentions BJU then it could serve as a source, but just the homepage doesn't do much of anything for anyone. A red link is not an invalid link, it is a link to an article that needs to be created. Do you think we need an article about a small accrediting body? Why is that link important, but the famous rules are deleted? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:29, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Like I said in the article talk page, I'm not opposed to mentioning the rules in an NPOV way and stating that they are criticised by most people who don't go to the school, but are respected by most who go to the school. We could then link to the schools list of rules. The link to the accrediting agency that was in the page before you reverted the article was to an external site. Once you reverted, it linked to a non-existent article. I've since corrected the link again. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 06:49, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== User RobinEvans trolling ==<br />
<br />
How come you are allowing [[User:RobinEvans]] to use WP talk pages to promote his anti-cult Yahoo group? You know that it is against WP policy. Would you do the same if a Sai Baba follower used the talk pages to promote Sai Baba? --[[User:Zappaz|ZappaZ]] [[Image:Yin_yang.png|12px]] 15:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'd probably remove the link if it had ben aded to those articles. But those were polite requests on talk pages. Removing all of those is more like censorship. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:26, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi Will, they were not "polite requests". The user spammed 13 different talk pages with links to this group. And if you visited the group's page, you'd see that it's virtually empty: 7 messages total. I know that removing comments is a touchy subject but this is spam. Some of the talk pages were completely irrelevant: [[Talk:Cult film]], for example, has nothing to do with actual cults. I would have no problem with a short note on a single talk page, but spamming 13 talk pages with a four paragraph ad crosses the line. I'm removing the spam again. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 20:58, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::On reflection I think that you are correct. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:21, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Forrest==<br />
Hi -- The Klan stuff in the Forrest article looks factually correct to me, although it is brief. No problem if you want to copy over some info. You'll find a lot of incorrect statements on the web that he founded the Klan.--[[User:Bcrowell|Bcrowell]] 23:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Archival Methods ==<br />
<br />
Please leave personal discussions outside of article talk pages. As far as addressing your issue with my method of archiving, please refer to [[Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page]] for more information on archival. It is altogether appropriate that sections be archived as I have done. Furthermore, keep in mind that [[Wikipedia:Stalking]] is being considered as a new policy and is considered inappropriate. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 02:07, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I initially left a message on your talkpage, but you immediately wiped it away. Then I left one on the talk page of concern, and you ignored it. Where can I leave messages for you that you will see them and respond? Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:17, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Socks ==<br />
<br />
You have some damn amazing socks I must say. [[User:Redwolf24|Redwolf24]] 02:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'm very proud of them. However, I, in turn, am a sock puppet as well.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Willmcw&diff=19626065&oldid=19505081] There are only five actual editors on Wikipedia. The rest are all sock puppets. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:32, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Minor Barnstar of Diligence ==<br />
<br />
Lol, I mark nearly every edit a minor edit! :) The only time I don't is when I create an article, etc. Thanks for the kind words, [[Image:WikiThanks.png]] , take care, <p style="font-family: Comic sans, Comic Sans MS, monospace;"><font size=2 color=turqoise> [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 15:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Eli Siegel was an anti-racist in 1923 -- some background ==<br />
<br />
Dear Wllmcw,<br />
<br />
Just to be absolutely clear, in case there is any doubt, I give more reasons to see that Eli Siegel's magazine essay "The Equality of Man" is an anti-racist work. The modern reader wouldn't be expected to know the background that was vivid in the the 1923 reader's mind--the reader for whom Mr. Siegel was writing.<br />
<br />
First, of course, he did not use the term racism in this essay because it didn't exist. "The term 'racism', according to the Oxford English Dictionary, emerged in the early 1930s as distinct from the 'theories of race' which had existed for at least a hundred years before that." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism] <br />
<br />
I do not believe it was necessary to use the term "race" in the essay either--a word much misused and which is almost impossible to define, even today. His readers knew what he meant. <br />
<br />
It is clear that Mr. Siegel was criticizing the racial theory of hereditary intelligence. He names five particular writers--the big names of the day--whose point of view the essay is a refutation of--a refutation solely by means of clear logic, blasting apart their fake arguments: <br />
<br />
:[Siegel wrote:] "The world has always been carried on as if men were unequal....the '''Galtons, Nietzsches, McDougalls, Termans, and Menckens''' are the present enunciators of the theory...that to some men nature has seen fit to give so much more intelligence than to others, that these first are fit by birth to rule the second....This writing will aim to show that Men Are Equal--in the clear and full meaning of the words." [''The Modern Quarterly'' vol 1, no. 3, December 1923]<br />
<br />
People reading "The Equality of Man" in 1923 would know that Galton, Nietzsche, McDougall, Terman, and Mencken (and their followers) promulgated the racial theory of inferiority. Even Siegel's title "The Equality of Man" contrasts dramatically with Galton's most popular title, "Hereditary Genius." Let's look at these five men one by one:<br />
<br />
'''1. Galton.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that Galton (Sir Francis Galton) was for racial INFERIORITY:<br />
<br />
:"One of the historical peaks of scientific racism was the establishment of eugenics. Francis Galton, who happened to be cousin to Darwin, is conventionally held responsible for the beginning of this scientific study of breeding and its improvement. In the chapter of his book Hereditary Genius - published in 1869 - entitled "The Comparative Worth of Different Races," Galton uses a sort of grading scale to point out [the place of] each race in the classification system he used....<br />
<br />
:"The works of these authors [Petty, Darwin, Galton] have been used to justify many atrocities, including slavery, colonization, and racial genocide during the period of the authors' lives to more recent violations of human rights and attempts to keep races 'pure' - i.e. Adolf Hitler's notion of the Final Solution and the master Aryan race." (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/hossain.html)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''2. Terman.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know Lewis M. Terman, psychology professor at Stanford University, was for racial INFERIORITY.<br />
<br />
For example: <br />
<br />
:"Chorover credited Terman with 'injecting race into the IQ debate.' Terman claimed that mental deficiency is very common in Spanish-Indian and Mexican families...and also among Negros. He also warned that "if we would preserve our state for a class of people worthy to possess it, we must prevent, as far as possible, the propagation of mental degenerates." (Lenny Lapon, URL: http://www.truthseekers.freeserve.co.uk/truth/tr8murderers.html)<br />
<br />
:"The beginning of the IQ-testing movement overlapped with the eugenics movement — hugely popular in America and Europe among the "better sort" before Hitler gave it a bad name — which held that intelligence was mostly inherited and that people deficient in it should be discouraged from reproducing." (http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/other/iq.html) <br />
<br />
'''3. McDougall.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that William McDougall of Harvard University was a racist.<br />
<br />
McDougall was given the William James Chair of Psychology at Harvard University. However, <br />
:'''"McDougall was not well-received at Harvard, due to the racist nature of his views on eugenics and his opposition to behaviorism."''' (''Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology.'' URL: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2699/is_0005/ai_2699000543)<br />
<br />
'''4. Nietzsche.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that Friedrich Nietzsche was was for racial INFERIORITY. <br />
<br />
Nietzsche wrote, for example,<br />
<br />
:1. "The negro represents an earlier phase of human development." [pp. 199-200](http://www.friesian.com/nietzsch.htm)<br />
<br />
:And 2. "...Let us face facts: the people have triumphed -- or the slaves, the mob, the herd, whatever you wish to call them -- and if the Jews brought it about, then no nation ever had a more universal mission on earth. The lords are a thing of the past, and the ethics of the common man is completely triumphant. I don't deny that this triumph might be looked upon as a kind of blood poisoning, since it has resulted in a mingling of the races, but there can be no doubt that the intoxication has succeeded. The 'redemption' of the human race (from the lords, that is) is well under way; everything is rapidly becoming Judaized, or Christianized, or mob-ized -- the word makes no difference...." [p.169-170]<br />
<br />
:[''The Birth of Tragedy and The Genealogy of Morals'', translated by Francis Golffing, Doubleday Anchor Books, 1956.] <br />
<br />
'''5. Mencken.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that H.L. Mencken was for racial INFERIORITY.<br />
<br />
:"Mencken considered everyone inferior to his 'superior men.' But, he believed Jews and blacks to be most inferior of all." [''Commentary: Mencken and the inferior man''<br />
Posted by Mac Diva on April 03, 2004 11:49 AM (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/04/03/114957.php)]<br />
<br />
And this is some of what Mac Diva quotes Mencken as writing--and this is what readers of Eli Siegel's refutation, "The Equality of Man," would have had in their minds in 1923:<br />
<br />
:The negro, no matter how much he is educated, must remain, as a race, in a condition of subservience; that he must remain the inferior of the stronger and more intelligent white man so long as he retains racial differentiation. Therefore, the effort to educate him has awakened in his mind ambitions and aspirations which, in the very nature of things, must go unrealized, and so, while gaining nothing whatever materially, he has lost all his old contentment, peace of mind and happiness.<br />
<br />
And Mencken also wrote this: <br />
<br />
:The fact remains that the Southern whites have to deal with the actual Negroes before them, and not with a theoretical race of African kings. These actual Negroes show actual defects that are very real and very serious. The leaders of the race, engrossed by the almost unbearable injustices that it faces, are apt to forget them. <br />
<br />
:[''Men versus the Man: A Correspondence between Robert Rives La Monte, Socialist, and H.L. Mencken, Individualist'' [1910] (http://www.io.com/gibbonsb/mencken/megaquotes.html)]<br />
<br />
Eli Siegel was against this horrible, ugly way of thinking, writing, talking, feeling, and even legislating from the very beginning. The U.S. eugenists, including these 5, were used by Hitler as models for his goal. It was racism. Siegel hated it. --[[User:66.114.86.135|66.114.86.135]] 18:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for providing this info. I'm quite familiar with the Eugenics movement. I wish that Siegel's essay itself was accessible. Meanwhile, I'll study what you have provided. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:36, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Epigraphs==<br />
I answered your query at my Talkpage --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 00:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC).<br />
<br />
== Placing users in danger ==<br />
<br />
FYI [[Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy#Placing_users_in_danger]] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 02:27, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Will, I saw you'd asked a couple of people about Linder. He says here [http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia] that he's Amalekite, and also on the Stormfront page here [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&highlight=wikipedia]. It's at the end of the first post in both cases, I think, and on Stormfront, he also later talks about having been blocked. Someone then posted anonymously on Homeontherange's talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHomeontherange&diff=21496598&oldid=21455599] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHomeontherange&diff=21545905&oldid=21542181] indicating that he knew what we were discussing, signed it Amalekite, and didn't say he wasn't Linder. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 08:38, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Protoscience ==<br />
<br />
There is a [[:Category:Protoscience]] - you might also want to look at [[Aetherometry]] to see how usage can be controvertial. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 05:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Ugh - I've resisted looking in on [[Aetherometry]] becaused I sensed it might be a time trap, but I'll take a narrow look on your recommendation. I see that both [[string theory]] and [[Wilhelm Reich]] are in [[:Category:Protoscience]]. The better category for Reich would be "protoscientists". ;) -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:09, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Look at aetherometry merely as an example of what can go wrong when people disagree as to whether something is protoscience or pseudoscience. Beyond that, if you value your sanity, ''keep away''. :) [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 06:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Alex Linder]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will. Did you know that the article about [[Alex Linder]] is up for VfD? I would like you to take a look at this. Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 08:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'd just noticed and am still trying to figure out what this all about. There is a rumour going around that Linder is/was [[user:Amalekite]], who caused a ruckus. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:18, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::He says so on one of his Stormfront sites, I don't know which one off the top of my head. [[User:Zoe|Zoe]] 18:59, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Research... ==<br />
<br />
...all done! But I also added [[volcano]]. I've also sufficiently scared my mom by explaining how I'll be renting a 4WD and driving up an unpaved track up the mountain to [[Monteverde]]. I figure that about covers me for trip prep. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 15:16, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sir...(sorry that I don't know how to sign on properly). I had written a note to you (but evidently rather stupidly put it on your July archive page...D'oh!) about some vandalization of an entry on me. It had been brought to my attention by a student. I just noticed that you replaced a link to a "critique" of my views on Iraq. I have no problem with people knowing that other people disagree with me, but the link was not to a critique of "my views" on Iraq, but to something quite different. If you follow the links you will find that Mr. Raimondo did not link to anything I wrote, but only to another thing that he wrote, which took a statement I wrote completely out of context. Here is the evidence: http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/018290.php . So by all means include links to criticisms, but they should not be based on maliciously dishonest distortions of someone's views. My views are frequently controversial enough that they should not need distortion to generate honest criticism.<br />
<br />
==Rudolf Steiner==<br />
Since you are implicated with this sort of stuff, please pay attention to that entry, it is far from being neutral. All the controversy of racistic reincarnation from the "Inferior" Black to "Superior" "Aryan" in his philosophy, and those of the school teaching racism are missing there. It seems that the major contributors are either from his schools or burocrats working there. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 03:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Erik Sigerud ==<br />
<br />
That's understandable - it's not the [[Erik Sigerud]] page which is up for deletion but the [[Erik sigerud]] one... ([[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Erik sigerud|Here's the VfD.]]) The user has simply created a duplicate. If you have a better knowledge than I have of the art world, your input into the VfD debate would be greatly appreciated. / [[User:Alarm|Alarm]] 11:31, 28 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Concerning the use of the words "fair comment" in a court decision ==<br />
<br />
Hi!<br />
<br />
I noticed that you have edited my article "fair comment". Thank you for your good work. Since you seem to be familliar with the matter can you give a 3rd opionion on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#concerning_the_legal_Term_.22fair_comment.22 this:] <br />
<br />
Do you think that the ruling of the court in this sentence was refering to the laymans understanding of [[fair comment]] or to the legal definition?<br />
<br />
<br />
...and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".<br />
<br />
Because slimvirgin belives the following:<br />
<br />
"I'd say fair comment means a matter of opinion, both in law and in layman's terms. The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."<br />
<br />
Now who is right? Would the N.Y. Supreme Court really use these words in the way slimvirgin understands them or would they mean the legal term "fair comment"?<br />
<br />
What is your opinion? <br />
<br />
Thank you for your help in this matter and if you can not help me can you suggest somebody who can help me? <br />
I have already asked Coolceasar but he could only clarify that the N.Y. Supreame Court is not the highest court.<br />
<br />
But following the last exchanges with cberlet there seems to be some movement... Anyway a 3rd opinion would be most welcome...<br />
<br />
<br />
--[[User:Zirkon|Zirkon]] 17:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Kind & Supportive==<br />
<br />
Hi Will. Just wanted to return your note, and thank you for your kind and supportive attitude. Cheers!<br />
--[[User:Lockley|Lockley]] 19:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw; thanks for the note. You've left me slightly confused (although this is probably because I'm so new to processing copyvios). I removed the copyvio notice from [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] because as far as I can see we have a legitimate claim for fair use. I haven't deleted the image as your message on my talk suggested. It probably ''should'' go to IfD, since it's an orphan, but I've not taken any action to delete it. Can you clarify your question? Cheers. --[[User:Ngb|Ngb]]<sup> [[User_talk:Ngb|?!?]]</sup> 21:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hehe. I can see how you would have thought that. :) Not to worry. Is it worth using the image in the [[Nationalist Movement]] article? If not, I will list it for deletion. --[[User:Ngb|Ngb]]<sup> [[User_talk:Ngb|?!?]]</sup> 21:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::There's also a [[Crosstar]] article. Both have had their images removed as a result of the dispute. The [[Arrowstar]] is virtually identical, and has been used as a replacement. [[User:Kaldari]] has been involved with these files too. Personally, I'd like to merge [[Crosstar]] and the [[Nationalist Movement]]. Either way, it's helpful to have an illustraiton of a logo. However, there are at least three crosstar images, and we certainly only need one. The [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] is probably the best, and the other two are lesser versions. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:23, August 29, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I would suggest adding the Crosstar_color.gif image to the relavent articles as that one seems to be the most accurate. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 13:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Ratcliff et al==<br />
Hi Will: Thanks for your message. I agree with you assessment of the background. We will only achieve consensus when the various editors accept wikipedia values or move on. In this case we all need to accept that encyclopedia articles are not platforms for attacks on, or promotions of, their subjects. We also need to be able to differentiate acts from opinions and recognize that the reporting of an opinion is not an endorsement of it. This could involve some repeated explanations. &mdash;[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 00:33, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==About Don Black article==<br />
Sorry about that, I wasn't sure how to source the stuff myself, seeing as I didn't have a copy of the book available to me, thanks for fixing that up, [[User:Derktar|Derktar]] 01:49, August 30, 2005 (UTC).<br />
<br />
**About the CARM and Matt Slick articles. Will you please research the topic, you continue to misrepresent CARM for months. CARM is not about discussion boards and has 26,000 members, plus 6000 to the boards and you do need to get the facts here, if you are going to participate in the article. www.carm.org Check it out, thousands of articles, Matt is a published author. Posted in the discussion. Are you ever going to really check into CARM as one of the TOP apologetic websites, we are not discussion boards, that is aarm, not CARM. <br />
<br />
'''To Willmcw: ONE MORE TIME Will, I have told you this many times and you either don't read or refuse to listen to me.''' CARM is not about discussion boards. CARM is an Apologetics ministry, with a Theology and Apologetics School, and articles on Christianity, with the boards a very small part of the ministry. Matt Slick is a published author and speaker, he has written thousands of articles for CARM. He is a Calvinist but doesn't write about Calvinism on CARM. CARM has over 26,000 members receiving news letters not 6000, but FIVE TIMES THAT, and 25,000 hits to the Home Page articles weekly. CARM is not a group with 6000 members, you keep referring to CARM as to the discussion boards which are the least popular of all of the ministry, it is not a blog, is not just discussion boards that are just part, a very small part of the ministry. The CARM discussion boards don't even deserve mentioning other than a sentence as to their importance to the article about CARM Apologetics Ministry and its features. Again, CARM is not, simply a discussion board, that is what aarm is about, not CARM. The most visited parts to CARM have NOTHING to do with the discussion boards. This article, and the Matt Slick article focus on the boards and should not, the ministry is an Apologetic Ministry, one of the top on the internet. We receive letters from Universities and Churches that the articles are used by students and pastors for teaching purposes. The aarm boards and J. Ratcliff are known to no one but a handful of people, that are just a discussion website and CARM is not. First of all, aarm just started less than a year ago, is not a website is simply a chatroom set up to mock the CARM ministry. The aarm boards have less than 200 people registered with about 20, if that regular members. AARM doesn't deserve mentioning anywhere, but the two people here focused on the CARM boards have left a WRONG impression, CARM is not a discussion board, why you keep saying that is bizarre. Have you even looked to see what it is. The boards, linked at the bottom of the website as a service, but again, CARM is not a discussion board, AARM is a discussion board just created. CARM is a Theology school, an apologetic Ministry. Posting this two places so that MAYBE you will see it. You don't even know what CARM is after all this time, it is NOT A DISCUSSION BOARD, why are you listening to these people from aarm, they are focused on their aarm boards trying to make CARM look like it is about the discussion boards, and the boards don't matter at all to the article on CARM. Sigh!Peggy Sue 16:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Bagoas==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw,<br />
<br />
Looking at [[Bagoas]] there were several date references using BC notation and one at the start of the article using BCE. This usage was added in a recent edit. Clearly only one format should be used in an article. BC was the majority usage in this article, and reflected the intention of earlier editor(s). Therefore I replaced the one exception. I have to admit that I prefer BC/AD but leaving my personal preferences aside it still made sense to go for BC in this article. Regards, [[User:Arcturus|Arcturus]] 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Frankfurt School permission==<br />
When you get a chance, would you please look at what I did on the [[Frankfurt School]] page, under References, and see if it seems OK to you? [[User:Jjshapiro|Jeremy J. Shapiro]] 21:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wikipedians with articles==<br />
Hello there. Let's, at the outset, acknowledge each other as relatively dedicated and good faith editors, shake hands, and now thrash out this disagreement with all due efficiency. I've made a suggestion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedians_with_articles#Purpose and will not remove any further names until we sort this out.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 09:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:As they say in my hometown, "Awesome, let's thrash." -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:47, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::OK, I've edited the header text to accurately introduce the list. Please add the other purposes for the list to it and ''soften'' if you really must ;o) --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 10:59, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Hi there. Well, I'm content with the page now. Good working with you. (doffs cap and goes back to attending to articles about comedy...) --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 20:24, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Thanks for your involvement. Many hands make light work. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:28, September 4, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for your support ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will, just a quick note to thank you for your support on my RfA. I was pleased to see so much support, especially from people such as you who I do not know very well, if at all. Now that I am an administrator I will do my best to please the community’s expectations. Best regards, [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Bureaucratship ==<br />
<br />
Hi, Willmcw. Thank you so much for your support and kind words on my bureaucratship nomination. Unfortunately, it didn't pass, but I intend to run again soon. If you'd like to be informed next time around, please let me know on my talk page. Thanks again! [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 05:16, September 4, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zephram Stark ==<br />
I have filed [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zephram Stark]]. Please contribute to it. &ndash; [[User:Smyth|Smyth]]\<sup><font color="gray">[[User_talk:Smyth|talk]]</font></sup> 18:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sun Yat-sen==<br />
Thanks for clearing that up. A bit of a bummer that that piece of text had gone undetected for a year; most of the wikipedia mirrors have that piece of propaganda now. [[User:Borisblue|Borisblue]] 02:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Santa Catalina Island, California ==<br />
<br />
I deleted your sarcasm at [[Talk:Santa Catalina Island, California]]. If you had taken time to actually read the Catalina article, you would have seen that section was very unclear on the status of the Bison and needed clarification. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 14:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've ocassionally gone over the boundaries of civility, but I try to save my cynicism for regular editors instead of relative newbies (see [[User_talk:Arrigo#Royal_pain-in-the-asses|here]] for me at my most cynical and sarcastic). Most of the times, however, I behave myself.<br />
<br />
:Recently I have gotten very discouraged about the level of discourse on the Wikipedia, and with seeing very good editors leave and new editors get bitten (see the comments on my user page for further amplification). Because of that, I've started occasionally playing Miss Manners in the little corners of the Wikipedia where I do most of my editing. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 15:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 24.141.149.226 ==<br />
<br />
Congrats go out to Wilmcw, for reverting a large number of correct edits without any real purpose or motivation.<br />
<br />
JEZZZ Willmcw, besides the "Jewish Americans" ones, what exactly was the point of taking out "Polish" from Chloe Sevigny? Her mother is Polish ("my mother's family is Polish" - http://www.latinoreview.com/films_2005/foxsearchlight/melinda/chloe-interview.html) and her French ancestry is minimal at best. You just assumed I was wrong and took it out on principal. Well, I am never wrong about the family background of famous people. Ever. Get it?<br />
<br />
Don't ever revert any of my edits unless you can provide explicit and reliable proof that I am incorrect - and that is something which will be near impossible for you to do, obviously. I hate it when people don't check their facts.<br />
{{Unsigned|24.141.149.226|06:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
:If you used the [[wikipedia:edit summaries]] and supplied sources, then your edits might be easier to decipher. Some of your edits seem based on the concept that people cannot be Jewish and Latvian at the same time. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:49, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, since I edit so many articles, both large and small size, it would take a tremendous amount of time to re-research all of the articles containing "sources" or "proof" and post it in the history of every article, especially many of the articles are almost never edited by anyone else, and most edits I see by other people don't contain sources. If you have a question about a specific edit (or a few) tell me (especially now that I have an account) and I will give you a source. They're not that hard to find.<br />
<br />
Now, narrowing this down to the "Jewish Americans" thing. Well, all the "??-American" categories refer to, in my understanding, the cultural/ethnic heritage of whoever. (I am not getting into an argument over whether "Jewish" is an ethnicity or not with you, in case you say it isn't - I will state that it absolutely is and that the Wiki article for [[Jew]] mentions the term [[ethnicity]] in the first sentence).<br />
<br />
Anyway, all of the people to which I added "Jewish American" are Jewish by ethnicity, the large majority are also Jewish by religion, and all of them are culturally Jewish. Most are the children of early 20th century/late 19th century immigrants to the States (I notice most famous 3rd or 4th generation Jewish Americans simply refer to their background as "Jewish", and don't even specify "German Jewish", etc.). Historically speaking, most Eastern European Jewish immigrants from that early time period lived in isolated all-Jewish villages, had little to no contact with outside culture, and a large majority didn't even speak the mother tongue of whichever country (i.e. Latvia) they were born into - I sincerely doubt the majority of these people would consider themselves to be "Latvian Americans" - they are Latvian only by nationality, really. "Latvian" is usually not their cultural and definitely not their ethnic background. I guess it's OK to list people as "Latvian Americans" if they were born in Latvia, but when it comes to 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants - they would have lost any trace of Latvian culture that their ancestors may have had, and would pretty much be "Jewish" in most senses of the word.<br />
<br />
To use some of the examples that I did on the Scarlett Johansson board - you could list half of the Jewish population of the States as "Russian Americans" because some of their ancestors may have been from Russia - but obviously any connection to anything Russian is minimal - and they aren't Russian ethnically, either. And again I use the example of ethnically English people born in India, Ireland, wherever - they would be "English Americans" - it'd be pretty silly to list them as "Indian Americans".<br />
<br />
I think it's best to keep the categories as tight as possible - notice how confusing it got with Johansson's various categories (and hers is one of the simpler backgrounds). It is much more authentic to list, under say Russian Americans, people who are ethnically and culturally Russian (or part Russian) - i.e. Natalie Wood, Michelle Trachtenberg who I recently added to that category (she has a Russian Jewish father and a Russian-Russian mother). Or at least people of whichever ethnicity who were born in Russia and have lived there for several generations.<br />
[[User:vulturell|V]] 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for correcting falacious and slanderous vandalism to my talk page and elsewhere. I honestly do not know what to do about [[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] :-/ All I did was revert several hundred of his vandalisms to the cleanup process about a month ago and now he's just outright attacking me. Is there a way to limit him — only — from editing my page or is this not possible in the site's current implementation? I was just ignoring him but what's next? — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I blocked the latest two abusive sock puppet accounts. However the person behind the effort is not banned. I am not aware of any way to keep him from editing a certain page. The best solution may be to revert any mischief. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia, I'm sorry about the behavior of others. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 16:53, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Spamming talk pages? ==<br />
<br />
I don't know what the protocol is regarding deletion of inappropriate information from article talk pages, but I want to point out that barbara Schwarz has posted a defamatory press release to [[Talk:David S. Touretzky]]. The press release is bogus; it's signed by a non-existent group with no email address, and a physical mail address (found in another copy of the press release) that turns out to be a Hilton hotel. Just the latest in Scientology's ongoing smear tactics. But the entire press release doesn't seem appropriate to the article talk page. -- [[User:Touretzky|Touretzky]] 17:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:No, it is not appropriate. Since there is a functional link, there's no need to copy it on the talk page. Thanks for pointing that out. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 17:47, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== los angeles ==<br />
<br />
why did you delete my entry ''Originally named "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula",'' as a native angeleno i feel everyone should know the origins of the city name.<br />
<br />
:I deleted it because that information is already in the article, and does not belong as the first line of the article. Nobody has called it that in 200 years, so it is trivia. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:09, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:PS, compare with [[New York City]], where the reference to its original name is handled in the history seciton. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:10, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thank you for the barnstar, minor though it is. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 11:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thank you. :) ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for your welcome and for the helpful links. :) [[User:Grandiloquos|Grandiloquos]] 16:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
My apologies. This was a double post. I received an error message after posting the first "thank you" and didn't think it went through. [[User:Grandiloquos|Grandiloquos]] 16:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for the barnstar! ==<br />
<br />
We are getting these controversial topics filled out pretty nicely lately! I am heartened to see so many differing viewpoints working together as well. [[User:Jokestress|Jokestress]] 18:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Just a thought. ==<br />
<br />
Will, I was wondering. Since we're having this edit war with some anonymous user regarding "The Nordish Portal" and "Skadi," do you think it's a good idea if we temporararily locked up the [[White supremacy]] article? Again that's just a thought. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 21:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've thought about the same thing. This anon doesn't show signs of giving up, but perhaps a few days of not editing the article would make him lose interest. If you want, why don't you add an entry to [[wikipedia:requests for page protection]]. I wouldn't be able to protect it since I'm an involved admin. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:14, September 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Just added an entry, like you advised me to. Here it is; <br />
[[Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Request_to_protect_White_supremacy]]. Let's see what happens next. Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 06:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Espinola ==<br />
<br />
If you don't mind, I'll post all replies on HopeSeekr's Talk. Cheers, --[[User:Sn0wflake|Sn0wflake]] 03:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks ==<br />
<br />
Thanks for the support on my RfA. I was very pleasantly surprised to see so much support throughout the week. Please do keep an eye on me and my logs, especially while I'm learning the ropes with the new buttons. Thanks again! -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 23:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Biff Rose]] ==<br />
<br />
Hello, Willmcw! Recently, [[User:Jonah Ayers|Jonah Ayers]] left me a message seeking my opinion on the [[Biff Rose]] page. Here's my thoughts on the article:<br />
<br />
First, Jonah claims that you revert him on sight. If so, please stop doing that. While you may not agree with his edits, the point of a temp page is so that you all can discuss the changes on the talk page. The very point of a temp page is to have meaningful discussion and avoid edit conflicts and edit wars. While I can see both sides would want to remove or add material, I strongly recommend all the involved parties not remove any content, and instead discuss any major additions or deletions of text in the talk page first.<br />
<br />
In addition, I reiterate my encouragement to all of you to discuss things before adding or removing any text (or quotes). Also, it might be good to [[WP:CITE|cite your sources]]; the first step is to prove that they are valid quotes. If they are, then all the editors should discuss whether they add to the article, and whether they should be included.<br />
<br />
Finally, I urge all of you to tone down your arguments; remember that you should [[WP:NPA|avoid all personal attacks]]. Stay civil, even if the other person may seem hostile. Remember that being antagonists will do nothing, and will not help toward creating a successful article.<br />
<br />
Hopefully you all will start having productive discussions, and create a wonderful article. Thanks! [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] |<small> [[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color = brown> note? ]]</font color>| [[User:Flcelloguy/Desk|Desk </small>]] 01:10, 10 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== RfA ==<br />
<br />
Will, [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Zappaz|my RfA nomination]] has become a platform for some editors that are discontent with my performace to criticize me as an editor (I am really trying hard to use nice words to describe this...). We have had our discrepancies but I think that we have managed to overcome most of these in an attempt to make articles better, so I will appreciate your vote be it for support, oppose or neutral, and some feedback from your experience in dealing with me. Thanks in advace. --[[User:Zappaz|ZappaZ]] [[Image:Yin_yang.png|12px]] 17:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My RFA ==<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for supporting my RFA. It meant all the more coming from you. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 21:56, September 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Good faith ==<br />
<br />
Yes, I agree that it's funny -- particularly coming from an unregistered user writing as "TS". Seeing the humor in such situations is the only way to stave off Wikiburnout. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 05:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Magdoff==<br />
Sorry to bother. I have posted a Request for Comment for the pages [[Talk:Harry Magdoff and espionage]] and [[Talk:Harry Magdoff]]. Endless revert wars and edit conflicts. Input welcome. --[[User:Cberlet|Cberlet]] 22:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== LaRouche ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will, I saw the Duggan edit but didn't even notice it was that IP address. It's clearly right that he should be blocked. I'd probably advise against you being the one to do it, because you were in a content dispute with him and took him to the arbcom, and I shouldn't do it for the same reason. I was always happy to block Cognition because I didn't feel he was H, but that IP address is almost certainly H (or Weed Harper if they were different people). Perhaps Snowspinner could be contacted? As for the IP address, we're not supposed to block any IP address indefinitely, as I understand it. A month block might be safer there. My recommendation would be to unblock both, and ask Snowspinner to look into it. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 07:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks, I'm sure you're right. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Did you speak Snowspinner? I see H is still editing. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Herschelkrustofsky] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 00:01, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No I hadn't. I undid the blocks and rationalized (hoped) that the activity was a fluke, though the anon IP edit to [[Jeremiah Duggan]] was pretty bad. This latest talk of "WikiCliques or POV posses" seems to be rather pointed, though he won't cite any specifics. I'll go ahead and drop Snowspinner a note. The ArbCom decision was unequivocal about the IP being an unpermitted sock/meat puppet of HK. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::There's no doubt about that being one of the two main IP addresses used by H/WH/CC, but particularly the first two. I believe it was thought to be their home address, so that they were either the same person or living together, but that's from memory: I've changed computers since then and all my H stuff is on the old one (though I can retrieve it quickly if I need to), and some of the info should be on the evidence page. El C might be prepared to do a block. He was online when I last checked. As for POV posses, yes, I saw it. ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 00:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Karl Rove]] ==<br />
<br />
Will, if you have time, pop by [[Karl Rove]] won't you? A very new and very aggressive editor is making some questionable edits backed up by such inflammatory rhetoric that it's difficult for other editors to concentrate on content, and has been difficult for me to steer the discussion toward a more fruitful goal. Understand if you don't have time, but if you do, your presence would be much appreciated. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 20:30, 16 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Gold Watch==<br />
<br />
Thanks, Will. [[user:Ed Poor|That's]] the nicest thing anyone's done for me here for as long as I can remember. (-: sniff, choke, sob :-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 01:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That ''was'' nice. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 01:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== math ==<br />
<br />
Why, silly old me, so it is! I don't know nothin' 'bout dividin' no numbers! .... If you have any thoughts on the unrelenting attempts to get AR's article to read as though AR wrote it, I'd be anxious to hear them. - [[User:Outerlimits|Outerlimits]] 22:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== edit summaries ==<br />
<br />
I will try to use them. :)<br />
<br />
signed CD<br />
<br />
==info==<br />
<br />
I preemptively blocked the editor you mentionned on my talk page, on wikicommons and wikiquote. I did not do so as a steward, who is not allowed to do it by himself. I did it as a board member. For now, the consequences are 1) that the editor reverted my messages on his talk page; 2) that the editor send me mails, calling me a fucking bitch; and 3) that Aphaia is questioning the validity of the block on wikiquote and might revert it in a few days. If you feel like leaving a message over there, you are most welcome. I will be away (and offline) for a week, leaving tomorrow. Cheers. [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 12:03, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Your view is requested ==<br />
<br />
I am contacting logged-in users who have taken an interest in, or edited, '''[[Wikipedia_talk:Assume_good_faith]]''', and asking them to respond to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Assume_good_faith#A_major_issue_related_to_Good_Faith/ a question] I have placed on that page which goes to the policy of [[WP:AGF]]. <br />
<br />
Thanks in advance. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 23:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== from Paul ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, thanks for stopping by to say hi. I was giving Jonah, a newbie, a hand to ease his peace of mind and bring an outside view to the situation. I do recognize your user name, but don't recall any correspondence with you or anyone on the page; I also kept my view of the Biff matter very focused.<br />
<br />
It does seem a bit odd to me that an article with such a small body of text has so many disputed external links. I would think it would be easier to work on the article by harvesting some Google searches and compiling a nice profile on this guy. He is a bit obscure, but I say, if you're going to include him in the Wiki, then go ahead and really document everything you can, and make it interesting.<br />
<br />
I left Jonah messages on his page which may be of interest to you. Also am happy to help you out in any way I can.<br />
<br />
One more thing: Going over the reverts is time consuming, and I now understand why many times in a 3RR violation no one takes the time to actually review the reverts. I have some ideas, software wise, that could make it easier if I knew of a developer. Let me know if one springs to mind. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 09:40, 20 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I just read some remarks in the history of the talk page that indicate there were reversions going on there, too, in the form of deleting comments. If you think I should review that page for violations as well, let me know. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]]<br />
<br />
::You said, "The peripheral issues seem to be multiplying, but they are all based on one article so it doesn't seem to be a major problem for the project." I agree. I have found, however, that if I can sharpen my own skills and help other users, that is incentive enough for me to do some evaluations such as the one I made on Biff. By the way, I would appreciate any criticisms or error-identifying of my evaluation. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think I'm getting a firm grasp on reversions. It really isn't that complicated. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 10:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Gross Discrepancies ==<br />
<br />
I find the article [[Pensacola Christian College]] to contain discrepancies with what actually goes on within the campus of PCC. I am currently a junior there, and there are things said here that certainly do not happen. I will certainly protest these inconsistencies, and will edit them myself. [[User:Pensacolaboy|Pensacolaboy]] 00:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nobs Redux at [[Talk:VENONA project]] ==<br />
Someone, not I, has consolidated the discussion over the Venona documents and how to represent them (prompted by the tect written by Nobs on many pages) onto a single page: [[Talk:VENONA project]]. I hope you will join us in trying to resolve many of the issues that keep cropping up across Wikipedia in this matter. Thanks.--[[User:Cberlet|Cberlet]] 12:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Toxic Waste ==<br />
Why did you delete<br />
::::::It can also relate to waste.Yeast die from the waste they produce (alcohol). Humans also die when their numbers produce too mush waste.<br />
<br />
[[User:By George|By George]]<br />
<br />
== The "Melissa Joan Hart"/"Sayville" anon is back... ==<br />
<br />
He's re-adding poor-quality external links to [[The Amityville Horror]] (it may be him, or one of his friends, who also added and re-added links on how to actually ''find'' the house) and he's back to his old tricks of trying to stir up [[User:Zappaz|Zappaz]] against me[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zappaz&diff=prev&oldid=23759102]. (I just have to ask, how is it that ''every'' weirdo with a bug up his butt finds his way to Zappaz's page and starts pouring out complaints there?) However, this time he pulled something new, by starting a vague RfC against me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antaeus_Feldspar&diff=prev&oldid=23759261 here]. While I am not overly concerned with the effect an anon's vague allegations will have on my reputation, I do not want this to hang around forever. Could you make sure it gets handled appropriately? ("appropriately" would seem to me to be deleting it as invalid, as the anon clearly did not follow the required steps for user-conduct RfCs; however, I want it to be clear that I didn't just ask "delete this for me" or for anything else out of process.) -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 18:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Butchering Bastards ==<br />
<br />
It's fine that you took it off. I was just trying to somewhat advertise, so I was pretty much mis-using wikipedia. I am extremely sorry, therefore if you think I should be blocked, then I guess you should do so. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well thanks, and also I want to tell you. That I'm the writer of the screenplay, I just use a different name when I write screenplays. I'm sure you assumed that, but yeah, I thought that maybe someone would read it and then rate it at its site, because I need to know what's wrong with it so I can rewrite it. I am working hard to get it made into a movie, but right now, I'm beginning to think it has no chance. And thanks again for understanding. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay well I guess I might not re-write it then, since it seems pretty pointless from what you've explained to me. I'll just figure out something else to do with any "talent" I could have. Since I'm sure that my screenplays suck anyway. Well thanks for enlightening me about that. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Since I guess I'm done with screenwriting. I would like you to atleast read and rate my most likely final screenplay. It is 8 pages, I made it short, so you wouldn't have to waste too much time reading it. It's somewhat based on something that has happened to me. It'll be up in a few days. It's called "Stephen and Steve", It has bad language, incase you care. If you want to read it I will tell you the address once it is on the website. But if you don't want to see it, just tell me. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 21:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Fairness==<br />
Willmcw: in the interests of fairness, after this edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:VENONA_project&diff=23811599&oldid=23810857], I humbly request you, as a neutral & fair third party, to remove usernames from the heading here [[Talk:Harry_Magdoff#Nobs_has_once_again_misrepresented_sources_in_his_espionage_paragraphs]]. Kindest regards for being fair. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 17:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I looked, but you'd already made the change. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[:Image:Telegraph Cucamonga and Ontario Peaks.jpg]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw. If you are the author of [[:Image:Telegraph Cucamonga and Ontario Peaks.jpg]], would you mind changing <nowiki>{{PD}} to {{PD-self}}</nowiki> to make that clearer? [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 16:26, 25 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Our friend ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, I have noticed [[User:216.175.112.9]] has a "suspected sockpuppet" tag on his page, identifying him as (possibly) Jonah Ayers. I believe this can now be changed to "confirmed," and thought I'd run it by you and get your opinion.<br />
<br />
Jonah has come to me for help in the past. I tried my best to do so, but he increasingly ignored me, when I didn't take his side (I guess).<br />
<br />
Today, when Jonah made a very substantial edit at the Biff page (logged in), he marked it as minor and failed to make a note in the edit summary. I caught this, and gave him a lesson on the "minor" on his talk page, and left it on the article's page as well. (It turns out it was a reversion, but it still shouldn't have been marked as minor.)<br />
<br />
He left a message on my talk page, anonymously, taking credit for the edit, and chastising me for my remarks. Do you think this statement constitutes enough of a confirmation to change the tag from "suspected" to "confirmed"? [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]]<br />
<br />
:Well, the puppet has now been blocked. What about the puppeteer? [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]] 21:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::By the way, I removed both mentions of my name from Jonah's talk page, as they were personal attacks (listing me under "trouble makers and vandals"). I don't take changing another's user page lightly, but I checked policy on this, and believe I am entitled to do this. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Category Removal, Edit Summaries ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, thanks for your note about including edit summaries. I realize that I should do so, and I will be more diligent in the future. Just in case you are wondering, an administrator told me that the policy for Categories is not to include an article in both a subcategory and its parent category. I had previously made the mistake of doing so and wanted to correct the errors. While I was at it, I corrected a few others that I found in error. [[User:Logophile|Logophile]] 07:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That's actually only part of the policy; there are exceptions to that rule. You can check the policy for yourself at [[WP:CLS]]. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 17:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Castro Cult dispute ==<br />
<br />
You've been active at [[Talk:Cult of personality#Fidel_Castro]]. After a long discussion I've now written an abbreviation that, in my view, settles the matter. Maybe you'd like to have a look and have another say on the subject. I've written a text for the article on 16 September, but that keeps on getting removed and put back again. So some more input is needed (possibly a vote?).<br />
<br />
I've also sent this message to the other previous contributors to the discussion, Cryptnotic, TJive, Mihnea Tudoreanu and Joolz [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] 09:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== screenplay ==<br />
<br />
This is the link to my long screenplay http://www.scriptbuddy.com/community/?p=4291529028&t=&pg= , my other short screenplay which I said something about, hasn't shown up on the site. So I don't have a link for that one. [[User:Private Butcher|Private Butcher]] 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==24.0.91.81 and sockpuppets==<br />
Hi. 24.0.91.81, along with a seires of new accounts, has been inserting a dispute tag in the [[Cold War]] article for days without offering a single explanation on any talk page. I just found out that you had to warn this editor about using sockpuppets about a month ago. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:24.0.91.81&diff=20391513&oldid=20390884] Since it seems like this account has been associated with a fairly long pattern of sockpuppet activity, it's probably worth an admin's attention. If you have time, could you please take a look? Thanks, [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 00:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the help! [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 20:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Concerted and vociferous personal attacks :-// ==<br />
<br />
Hi! xMule and aMule have been at odds since the aMule project was started on the day in 2003 when my internet access was blocked by the MPAA due to my development of xMule. I have largely moved on with my life and the war has largely ebbed since January of this year. Today I noticed on [[Talk:xMule]] a very vitriolic attack of my character among other disturbing things.<br />
<br />
First, a person emailed me about 2 weeks ago asking for xMule screenshots and wondering why xMule appeared dead. Now, this letter (posted by Kry of aMule (it's leader)) has been posted on wikipedia as a personal attack on my character. How Kry got the email is beyond me, why he felt it appropriate to post on wiki as an attack is typical if yet egregious (it's worse than the main page says it is).<br />
<br />
I don't know what I did to deserve being called "a demented freak" in the eyes of that guy but I find it very unpleasant and stopped reading from that point on, so it's likely it just degrades from there. I seek to have him and Kry banned for personal attacks on me (Kry personally attacked me on wiki before just when I was an anoynmous user).<br />
<br />
I really want that talk page comment stricken from wikipedia too because of the libel it employs. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 21:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Tom G Palmer==<br />
Dear Willmcw: I am appealing for your intervention in the case of the [[Tom G. Palmer]] page, and don't know how else to get in touch with you. Please visit that page and reference the discussion. Your edit is being systematically vandalized. -[[User:Rothbard|Rothbard]] 12:40, Oct 1, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I'll try to take a look when I've got a chance. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==CfD==<br />
I'm on the prowl for competent editors who are coming up on recent changes to take a look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_September_23#Category:Totalitarian_dictators CfD] for a nightmare category. If you have time, please take a look. Thanks. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 23:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Metrolink (Southern California)]] map link ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw. I noticed that you added back the transit-rider.com map link to the Metrolink article. While I support the idea of having a direct map link in the article, there is a technical problem with the link you provided.<br />
<br />
It looks like Transit-Rider.com's web server is not set up to serve [[PNG]] images correctly. They are being returned with a generic [[MIME type]] of '''application/octet-stream''', instead of the correct MIME type of '''image/png'''. What this means is that that link is only directly viewable in [[Internet Explorer]] (since it ignores the HTTP standards and uses the file extension to guess the file type). [[Mozilla]]-based browsers (and I suspect [[Opera (browser)]] and [[Safari (browser)]] too) will show a "download this file" dialog instead of displaying it.<br />
<br />
There is nothing you can do about this per se, but it might be nice to notify transit-rider.com of the configuration problem to allow users of non-IE browsers to easily view the image. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 00:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps this is due to a setting in browsers. The page come up fine for me in Opera 8.5. Firefox exhibits the behavior you mention. Too bad there is problem, it's a good map. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Glad to hear it works in more than just IE. However, I don't think that Mozilla-based browsers have a setting that will allow them to display the image. Are you interested in contacting Transit-Rider.com about fixing their server configuration, or would you like me to do so since I'm already familiar with their problem from a technical level? [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 01:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Could you please? Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The MIME type thing is not a problem when the URL is in an HTML image tag (as it is on the Transit Rider site), so I think it would actually be better to link to http://www.transit-rider.com/ca.losangeles/metrolink.cfm?id=map instead of directly to the PNG. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 01:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yes, that loads perfectly in Firefox. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:36, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Cool, I've updated the article to point to the page instead of the image directly. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 02:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Ethnic labels ==<br />
<br />
What is this stupid cat called "Category:English_Americans"? And putting people like James Garner, Carrie Fisher, Jane Fonda, Peter Fonda, Robert Redford, Ashlee Simpson,<br />
Jessica Simpson, Tom Cruise, Chevy Chase, Johnny Cash, David Cassidy, Tom Hanks, etc., etc., etc. This [[User:Vulturell]] putting people like this in that category is a joke. I can see people like Cary Grant, Charlie Chaplin, Alfred Hitchcock, etc., who were born in England, but then spent the major portion of their life in the U.S. in the cat, but not these other people, this is silly. [[User:WikiDon|WikiDon]] 20:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree. You might drop [[User:Vulturell]] a note asking him to use more restraint. He is apparenlty in a project to assign ethnic or national labels to every celebrity. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:38, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Christmas==<br />
In case you don't revisit the Political Correctness web page, here's the link to UC Berkeley, that noted Dec. 25 as "Winter Holiday". [http://opa.vcbf.berkeley.edu/AcademicCalendar/calendardisp.cfm?terms=current]<br />
<br />
== Ronnie Earle ==<br />
<br />
The crooksandliars link was there because people starting to call Earle a "Democrat party agent" and they act like no jury was involved in Delays inditment.<br />
<br />
:I added it back with a description. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Overtaken ==<br />
<br />
Now SlimVirgin 16,854, Willmcw 16,941: spooky. Does this mean we're more than just a POV possé, but now actually the same person? ;-D You've done many more edits to articles than me, though. I spend too much time on talk pages, desperately trying to justify myself. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 18:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== What do you think about User Rangerdude contributions? ==<br />
<br />
Hi!<br />
<br />
I used english Wikipedia to get information about [[James M. McPherson]] to create an article in german Wikipedia. I wonder if the mentioned critic [[Thomas DiLorenzo]] is reliable. The article about him tells that he's related to the [[League of the South]]. Have you read the wikipedia information about this organisation? I don't know whether they are harmless or extremist. The relation of DiLorenzo to such an organisation does not automatically conclude not reliable statements about McPherson but the mentioned DiLorenzo predicitions I've read in the McPherson article are IMHO POV, disproportionate or absolutely not true. Especially that ''marxism''-allegation. I've just read ''Battle Cry of Freedom'', but this several times, and I found absolutely no appearance of Marxism. Seems more like an "MacCarthy"-style accusation.<br />
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What do you think? Should I mention this DiLorenzo guy in the german article? <br />
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I tried do mention DiLorenzo's relation to the [[League of the South]] so the reader himself can judge the reliability of this critic, but user Rangerdude is watching this article like a guard dog to defend his as I guess POV contributions, so I had no chance and didn't want to start a edit war without knowing more about DiLorenzo criticism.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 18:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I don't think DiLorenzo is an especially notable critic of McPherson's, so his inclusion should depend on the length of the article. Rangerdude is zealous on issues concerning the [[confederacy]], [[neo-confederate]], and related issues, and his contributions should be viewed with care. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:25, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
Hi Willmc!<br />
<br />
I see you are fighting now for that member of the League of the South sentence. But sorry, I didn't read the DiLorenzo article carefully enough. It can't be assumed that he is a member. It's not his one and only job but he is also working for a institute owned or supported by the League of the south. IMHO it should be better to discuss the academic dispute about DiLorenzos thesis if there is one our remove that selective not true-wikipedia-style "fact-showing" but "fact-creating" highlighting of criticism. <br />
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It's always the same with these political articles, for one word in the article one hundred words or even more on discussion pages are spend. That's why I favour to write technical articles like I did on wikibooks.<br />
<br />
[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== I temporarily deleted the crosstar image ==<br />
<br />
I temporarily deleted the crosstar image as a courtesy to our hosting facility, who received an apparently properly formatted DMCA complaint. I am working with our legal team to formulate a proper response, so that the colo has no legal liability, and then we'll put it back up. Please spread the word to anyone who you think would like to know about this. :-) --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] 21:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
:And so it begins... [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 22:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24800941Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-05T10:20:27Z<p>E^(nix): /* Yet another sentence */</p>
<hr />
<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
<br />
::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
<br />
*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
<br />
*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
<br />
:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
<br />
See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
<br />
:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
<br />
:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
<br />
:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
<br />
:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
<br />
:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
<br />
# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
<br />
The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
<br />
# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
<br />
You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
<br />
Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
<br />
:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
<br />
[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
<br />
See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
<br />
If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Cleanup==<br />
<br />
This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== predecessors ==<br />
<br />
*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Rangerdude, do you have any informations about the reaction of the academic world towards DiLorenzo's work? Can you proof his reliability?<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem with your argument, E^nix, is that by ''selectively'' introducting the League of the South information you are attempting to sway the reader's perception of DiLorenzo depending on his or her opinion of that organization. That's not what Wikipedia is about - it's about allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind. Usually factual details about specific individuals or groups are placed on the article about them (in this case [[Thomas DiLorenzo]]) - not in the middle of texts in other articles where they are mentioned as a source. I notice you are new to wikipedia, and accordingly you should review [[WP:NPOV]] - a policy of this site that requires neutrality on issues such as these. The provision I quoted above is pertinent to this case as it prohibits the selective inclusion of facts with POV connotation - something your LOS reference violates. While it is fair and factual to mention the LOS on DiLorenzo's own article page, that piece of information is by no means what he's best known for (he's best known as an enconomist and Lincoln biographer) and in fact is a comparatively obscure and politically loaded piece of information about him. It would be the same problem if I were to go around to every single article James McPherson is quoted in and change it to "James McPherson, who is affiliated with a communist political party, ..." While it would be factual to note that, selectively choosing it alone as the main piece of information to include about McPherson would constitute POV promotion. Regarding your question about DiLorenzo's work, I can note that he is a widely published book author and has published several peer reviewed articles in academic journals. Books and scholarly journal articles are generally considered the two main indicators of credibility in academia. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for answering my question. But wouldn't it be better (more "matter-of-factly") to discuss the scientific dispute in the article instead of highlighting unreplied criticism? I guess there must be a dispute if DiLorenzo is writing books and is publishing scholarly journal articles. I think this would improve the article.<br />
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::[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Yet another sentence==<br />
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The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I disagree. Unless you can show that McPherson has scholarly credentials in the field of economics it is not valid to revise the article in a way that assumes that he does. Simply having a PhD. does not make somebody an economist or grant him experience in that field - their are thousands of PhD.'s out there in hundreds of different fields who have not picked up an economics textbook since high school, if even that. For all we know about McPherson at the time he has no formal scholarly credentials in the field of economics & thus it is not our place to speculate that he somehow picked them up during his career in a different field. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Why are we pointing out that he doesn't have those credentials? There are dozens of credentials that he doesn't have but we aren't mentioning those. Should we mention the lack in the article of every professor who has made some comment outside his main field? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::(he has none) concerns both, lack of formal scholarly credentials and lack of self trained economic expertness. We know about lack of formal scholarly credentials but we don't know about the actual economic erxpertness of McPherson. So the not fact supported sentence (he has none) had to be removed. Let's not point it out as Willmc says. Everything about McPhersons credentials is said in the head of the article. That's adequate information.<br />
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::[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:20, 5 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24800181Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-05T10:02:26Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
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<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
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::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
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See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
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:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
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:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
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:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
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:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
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:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
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# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
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The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
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# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
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You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
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Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
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:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
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[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
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See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
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If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Cleanup==<br />
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This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== predecessors ==<br />
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*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Rangerdude, do you have any informations about the reaction of the academic world towards DiLorenzo's work? Can you proof his reliability?<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::The problem with your argument, E^nix, is that by ''selectively'' introducting the League of the South information you are attempting to sway the reader's perception of DiLorenzo depending on his or her opinion of that organization. That's not what Wikipedia is about - it's about allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind. Usually factual details about specific individuals or groups are placed on the article about them (in this case [[Thomas DiLorenzo]]) - not in the middle of texts in other articles where they are mentioned as a source. I notice you are new to wikipedia, and accordingly you should review [[WP:NPOV]] - a policy of this site that requires neutrality on issues such as these. The provision I quoted above is pertinent to this case as it prohibits the selective inclusion of facts with POV connotation - something your LOS reference violates. While it is fair and factual to mention the LOS on DiLorenzo's own article page, that piece of information is by no means what he's best known for (he's best known as an enconomist and Lincoln biographer) and in fact is a comparatively obscure and politically loaded piece of information about him. It would be the same problem if I were to go around to every single article James McPherson is quoted in and change it to "James McPherson, who is affiliated with a communist political party, ..." While it would be factual to note that, selectively choosing it alone as the main piece of information to include about McPherson would constitute POV promotion. Regarding your question about DiLorenzo's work, I can note that he is a widely published book author and has published several peer reviewed articles in academic journals. Books and scholarly journal articles are generally considered the two main indicators of credibility in academia. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for answering my question. But wouldn't it be better (more "matter-of-factly") to discuss the scientific dispute in the article instead of highlighting unreplied criticism? I guess there must be a dispute if DiLorenzo is writing books and is publishing scholarly journal articles. I think this would improve the article.<br />
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::[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 10:02, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Yet another sentence==<br />
<br />
The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I disagree. Unless you can show that McPherson has scholarly credentials in the field of economics it is not valid to revise the article in a way that assumes that he does. Simply having a PhD. does not make somebody an economist or grant him experience in that field - their are thousands of PhD.'s out there in hundreds of different fields who have not picked up an economics textbook since high school, if even that. For all we know about McPherson at the time he has no formal scholarly credentials in the field of economics & thus it is not our place to speculate that he somehow picked them up during his career in a different field. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Why are we pointing out that he doesn't have those credentials? There are dozens of credentials that he doesn't have but we aren't mentioning those. Should we mention the lack in the article of every professor who has made some comment outside his main field? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24768245Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-04T23:37:06Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
<hr />
<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
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::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
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See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
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:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
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:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
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:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
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:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
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:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
<br />
# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
<br />
The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
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# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
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You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
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Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
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:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
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[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
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See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
<br />
If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Cleanup==<br />
<br />
This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== predecessors ==<br />
<br />
*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Rangerdude, do you have any informations about the reaction of the academic world towards DiLorenzo's work? Can you proof his reliability?<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Yet another sentence==<br />
<br />
The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24768214Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-04T23:36:39Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
<hr />
<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
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::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
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See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
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:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
<br />
:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
<br />
:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
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:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
<br />
:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
<br />
# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
<br />
The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
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# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
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You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
<br />
Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
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:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
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[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
<br />
See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
<br />
If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Cleanup==<br />
<br />
This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== predecessors ==<br />
<br />
*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
<br />
:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
<br />
:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
<br />
:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
<br />
:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Rangerdude, do you have any informations about the reaction of the academic world towards DiLorenzo's work? Can you proof his reliability?<br />
<br />
==Yet another sentence==<br />
<br />
The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
<br />
[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_M._McPherson&diff=24768112James M. McPherson2005-10-04T23:35:23Z<p>E^(nix): </p>
<hr />
<div>:''For the Civil War General of the same name see [[James B. McPherson]]''<br />
<br />
'''James M. McPherson''' (born [[October 11]], [[1936]]) is an [[American Civil War]] [[historian]], and is the George Henry Davis '86 Professor of [[United States History]] at [[Princeton University]]. He received the [[Pulitzer Prize]] for ''Battle Cry of Freedom'', his most famous book. He was the president of the [[American Historical Association]] in [[2003]], and is a member of the editorial board of [[Encyclopædia Britannica]].<br />
<br />
Born in [[Valley City, North Dakota|Valley City]], [[North Dakota]], he received his [[Bachelor of Arts]] at [[Gustavus Adolphus College]] ([[St. Peter, Minnesota|St. Peter]], [[Minnesota]]) in [[1958]] (from which he graduated ''cum laude''), and his [[Doctor of Philosophy|Ph.D.]] at [[Johns Hopkins University]] in [[1963]]. Currently he resides in [[Princeton, New Jersey|Princeton]], [[New Jersey]], and is divorced with one child. <br />
<br />
==Scholarship==<br />
McPherson's works include ''The Struggle for Equality'', awarded the [[Anisfield-Wolf Award]]. In [[1989]], he published his Pulitzer-winning book, ''Battle Cry of Freedom''. And in [[1998]] another book, ''For Cause and Comrades'', received the [[Lincoln Prize]]. In 2002 he published both a scholarly book, ''Crossroads of Freedom: Antietam 1862,'' and a history of the Civil War for children, ''Fields of Fury''. Unlike many other historians, he has a reputation of trying to make history accessible to the public. Most of his works are marketted to popular audiences and his book ''Battle Cry of Freedom'' has long been a popular one-volume general history of the Civil War.<br />
<br />
McPherson was named the "2000 Jefferson Lecturer in the Humanities" by the [[National Endowment for the Humanities]]. In making the announcement NEH Chairman William Ferris said:<br />
:James M. McPherson has helped millions of Americans better understand the meaning and legacy of the American Civil War. By establishing the highest standards for scholarship and public education about the Civil War and by providing leadership in the movement to protect the nation's battlefields, he has made an exceptional contribution to historical awareness in America.[http://www.neh.gov/news/archive/20000111.html]<br />
<br />
McPherson is a proponent of [[revisionist history]]. "Revisionism," he argues, is "what makes history vital and meaningful"[http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm]<br />
<br />
===Academic criticism===<br />
Some of his Civil War scholarship has come under criticism from [[economics|economist]] and [[Abraham Lincoln]] critic [[Thomas DiLorenzo]] for a perceived latent pro-North bias to his work and for exhibiting a [[liberal]] political bent. In particular he has critiqued McPherson's grasp of economic issues.[http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo58.html] According to DiLorenzo, McPherson often relies upon his own reputation as a well known Civil War historian rather than any training in economics or qualified examination of statistical data to provide economic analysis that is erroneous. Another criticism by DiLorenzo includes the allegation that his work exhibits radical, [[Marxist]] tendencies -- a critique that has also been made against Civil War historian [[Eric Foner]]. It should be mentioned as well, that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the [[League of the south]] although it is not known, how much this influences DiLorenzo's work.<br />
<br />
==Politics & advocacy==<br />
McPherson is known for his outspokenness on contemporary issues and his activism, such as his work on behalf of the preservation of Civil War battlefields. As president in 1993-1994 of Protect Historic America, he lobbied against the construction of a commercial theme park at the [[Manassas]] battlefield. He has also served on the boards of the Civil War Trust and the Association for the Preservation of Civil War Sites, and on the Civil War Sites Advisory Committee.<br />
<br />
In 1998, McPherson joined a group of scholars, most of them law professors, in supporting President [[Bill Clinton]] against [[impeachment]] charges during the [[Monica Lewinsky]] [[scandal]]. <br />
<br />
As president of the American Historical Association (AHA), he used his regular "President's Column" in "Perspectives" to address a some of politically and socially-sensitive issues. He criticized the [[George W. Bush|Bush]] administration's doctrine of [[preemptive war]] in [[Iraq]], citing the examples the American Civil war and World War II. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0305/0305pre1.cfm] Responding to comments in 2003 when Bush and [[Condoleezza Rice]] criticized revisionist historians, McPherson accused the Bush Administration of using deceptive information to "justify an unprovoked invasion" of Iraq. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm] In another column, he detailed the "older forms [[affirmative action]]", such as the "old boys network", that helped people like him advance, and acknowledges that contemporary affirmative action, while imperfect, is less unjust than the old system. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0304/0304pre1.cfm]<br />
<br />
The practice of espousing contemporary political beliefs in his columns drew backlash and criticism from several AHA members who wrote letters to the editor of "Perspectives". David F. Krein, of [[Scott Community College]] in Iowa, responded that McPherson "seems intent to use his 2003 term as AHA president as his own "bully pulpit" (as president of the AHA) to promote a personal political agenda" and "implore(d) him to stop" the politicization of his column "for the dignity of the profession" of historians.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let1.cfm] Don McArthur, of Maine South High School in Illinois, responded that McPherson's politics were "furthering a general public mistrust of academic historians" and requested that he "moderate his obviously intense political aversion to the (Bush) administration" when writing in official AHA publications.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let2.cfm] Martin J. Weiner, of [[Rice University]], described McPherson's columns as "the most unprofessional thing I have seen in 35 years of reading ''Perspectives,''" the AHA's newsletter in which they were published, and suggested the organization's Professional Division should consider McPherson's actions as an "abuse of his office."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let3.cfm]<br />
<br />
In response, McPherson claimed that he received generally favorable "personal communications" from other members about his columns, stated that he was only giving his personal views, and argued that contemprorary politics is an appropriate field for the commentary of historians. He concluded by asking readers, "to decide whether my 'conclusions and arguments' are more or less likely 'to flow automatically from ideology rather than from evidence' than those of the Bush administration."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0311/0311let4.cfm]<br />
<br />
McPherson has criticized those who defend the inclusion of Confederate imagery in state flags, such as Senator [[Trent Lott]]. He has also favored revisionary presentations at Civil War sites sites in the [[National Park Service]]. Actions such as these have led his critics such as DiLorenzo to charge him with politicizing the battlefields.[http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/005734.html]<br />
<br />
McPherson has been interviewed in the World Socialist Web Site [http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/history/h-mcpher.shtml], a publication of a [[socialist]] political party. He has also published articles in [[liberal]] opinion magazine ''[[The Nation]]''. <br />
<br />
===Democracy Now interview & UDC boycott===<br />
McPherson's political views have led to charges of [[bias]] against him and at least one [[boycott]] of his books. In [[1999]] McPherson drew the ire of Confederate genealogy groups when he and [[Ed Sebesta]] had an interview with [[Amy Goodman]] and [[Juan_Gonzalez_(journalist)|Juan Gonzalez]] on the [[liberal]] [[Pacifica Radio]] network's [[Democracy Now!]] program. The topic of the interview was then-candidate [[George W. Bush]]'s support for the Museum of the Confederacy. During the interview McPherson described the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] - two Civil War genealogical groups that are over one hundred years old - as neo-confederate groups. McPherson also stated:<br />
<br />
:"I think, I agree a 100% with Ed Sebesta about the motives or the hidden agenda, not too, not too deeply hidden I think of such groups as the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. They are dedicated to celebrating the Confederacy and rather thinly veiled support for white supremacy. And I think that also is the again not very deeply hidden agenda of the Confederate flag issue in several southern states."<br />
<br />
McPherson also remarked that board members of the [[Museum of the Confederacy]] in [[Richmond, Virginia]] were "undoubtedly neo-Confederate." These comments outraged members of the UDC and SCV, bringing condemnation of McPherson and causing boycott calls against his books.[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html] A year later McPherson responded to the boycott campaign by elaborating on his comments:<br />
<br />
:"If I implied that all U.D.C. chapters or S.C.V. chapters or anyone who belongs to those is promoting a white-supremacist agenda, that's not what I meant to say," he said. "What I meant to say is that some of these people have a hidden agenda of white supremacy, (which) they might not even recognize they're involved in"<br />
<br />
Members of the UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments. The Virginia UDC responded in their newsletter that "Far from apologizing for his baseless accusations of racism, (McPherson) has now added ignorance to the list of sins that we have committed." The groups continue to oppose McPherson. [http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html]<br />
<br />
==Bibliography==<br />
*''The struggle for equality; abolitionists and the Negro in the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1964.<br />
*''The Negro's Civil War; how American Negroes felt and acted during the war for the Union'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Pantheon Books, 1965.<br />
*''Marching toward freedom; the Negro in the Civil War, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Knopf, 1968, c1967.<br />
*''Blacks in America; bibliographical essays'', by James M. McPherson and others. 1st ed. Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1971.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, c1975.<br />
*''Region, race, and Reconstruction: essays in honor of C. Vann Woodward'', edited by J. Morgan Kousser and James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1982.<br />
*''Ordeal by fire: the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson.1st ed. New York: Knopf: Distributed by Random House, c1982.<br />
*''Lincoln and the strategy of unconditional surrender'', by James M. McPherson. Gettysburg, Pa: Gettysburg College, 1984.<br />
*''How Lincoln won the war with metaphors, by James M. McPherson. Fort Wayne, Ind.: Louis A. Warren Lincoln Library and Museum, 1985.<br />
*''Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1988.<br />
*''Battle chronicles of the Civil War'', by James McPherson, editor; Richard Gottlieb, managing editor. 6 vols. New York: Macmillan Pub. Co.; London: Collier Macmillan Publishers, c1989.<br />
*''Abraham Lincoln and the second American Revolution'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.<br />
*''American political leaders: from colonial times to the present'', by Steven G. O'Brien; editor, Paula McGuire; consulting editors, James M. McPherson, Gary Gerstle. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO, c1991.<br />
*''Why the Confederacy lost'', edited by Gabor S. Boritt ; essays by James M. McPherson ... [et al.]. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.<br />
*''What they fought for, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, c1994.<br />
*''The atlas of the Civil War'', edited by James M. McPherson. New York: Macmillan, c1994.<br />
*''"We cannot escape history": Lincoln and the last best hope of Earth'', edited by James M. McPherson. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1995.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', James M. McPherson. 2nd ed. with a new preface by the author. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1995.<br />
*''The American heritage new history of the Civil War'', narrated by Bruce Catton; edited and with a new introduction by James McPherson. New York: Viking, 1996.<br />
*''Drawn with the sword: reflections on the American Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.<br />
*''For cause and comrades: why men fought in the Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.<br />
*''Is blood thicker than water?: crises of nationalism in the modern world'', by James M. McPherson. Toronto: Vintage Canada, c1998.<br />
*''Personal memoirs of U.S. Grant'', by Ulysses S. Grant; with an introduction and notes by James M. McPherson. New York: Penguin Books, 1999.<br />
*''Encyclopedia of Civil War biographies'', edited by James M. McPherson. 3 vols. Armonk, NY: Sharpe Reference, c2000.<br />
*''Crossroads of freedom: Antietam'', by James M. McPherson. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2002.<br />
*''The boys in blue and gray'', written by James M. McPherson. New York: Atheneum Books for Young Readers, c2002.<br />
*''The illustrated Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, c2003.<br />
*''Hallowed ground: a walk at Gettysburg'', by James M. McPherson. 1st ed. New York: Crown Journeys, 2003.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
<br />
*[http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/writer.asp?cid=627214 Barnes & Noble - Meet the Writers]<br />
*[http://history.princeton.edu/index.php?app=people&id=46 Princeton University Biography]<br />
*[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0412226&mode=thread&tid=5 ''Democracy Now'' November 3, 1999: George W. Bush and the Confederacy: Where Does He Stand?] <br />
*[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html Virginia UDC: Princeton Educator Maligns UDC]<br />
*[http://www.sierratimes.com/goldberg.htm James McPherson, Nihil Obstat] in the ''Sierra Times''<br />
<br />
[[Category:1936 births|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:American historians|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:MacArthur Fellows|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:Pulitzer Prize winners|McPherson]]</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24767997Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-04T23:33:52Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
<hr />
<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
<br />
::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
<br />
See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
<br />
:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
<br />
:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
<br />
:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
<br />
:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
<br />
:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== More vague asertions ==<br />
<br />
# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
<br />
The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
<br />
# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
<br />
You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
<br />
# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
<br />
Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
<br />
:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
<br />
[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
<br />
See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
<br />
If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Cleanup==<br />
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This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== predecessors ==<br />
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*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Yet another sentence==<br />
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The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has none) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:James_M._McPherson&diff=24767678Talk:James M. McPherson2005-10-04T23:29:33Z<p>E^(nix): /* NPOV */</p>
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<div>==McPherson and neo-confederates==<br />
The "gatekeeper" would like to see some references for these broad generalizations:<br />
*1 ''the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] ... are largely seen as benign heritage organizations...'' -Seen by whom?<br />
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::Seen by their 100-year history. The only types who see the UDC and SCV as anything other than that are Ed Sebesta-type demagogues.<br />
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*2 ''The UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments.'' -There's one reference to one UDC chapter.<br />
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:And for source purposes that chapter is a representative link to the way the UDC and SCV responded. Digging up and linking each and every single individual SCV and UDC chapter would be an absurd exercise, even by your selectively stringent sourcing demands.<br />
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*3 Can you provide a source for the "outrage" of the SCV? <br />
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:Your selective source stringency is showing again, willmcw. McPherson's comments dominated the SCV and UDC chapter newsletters for several months after the incident, most of which are in print - not the web. Just because you didn't find it on google doesn't mean it never happened.<br />
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*4 For any UDC chapter besides Virginia? <br />
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See above.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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*5 ''McPherson the ire of many Civil War enthusiasts...'' -Does this refer to the Virginia UDC too? That's a lot of mileage to get out of one webpage.<br />
*6 Since when is Sebesta a "leftist" activist? Last week he was an "anti-neo-confederate" activist.<br />
Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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RD, I have no problem with including the information sourced on the Virginia UDC page, and any other information supported by specific, verifiable information. ''Many, most, some'' and related vaguenesses with no support should be avoided in an encyclopedia. <br />
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:It's fine to reduce those terms and refine the language to something more precise, but demanding several links for each and every facet of a commonly known incident among the UDC and SCV when the existing one suffices is excessive and goes well beyond the elimination of vagueness.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding point #1, lasting 100 years is no guarantee of goodness. If you want to say it is "generally regarded", you are asserting something that is virtually unprovable unless someone has taken a poll. Just omit it. <br />
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:It may or may not be a guarantee of anything, but it is factually correct to note that the SCV and UDC have not encountered much of any criticism ala the Sebestas of the world until the last decade, and even then only from a small number of persons like Sebesta who are on the political fringe. Mainstream groups like their union veterans descendants counterparts and other geneological associations seem to have no problem with the SCV or UDC and often participate in activities together with them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #2 & #3: If the SCV as a whole has expressed outrage, then the press release should not be hard to find. The SCV has a national governing body. If it wants to be outraged, it is capable of passing a resolution or writing an essay. And if one chapter of one society has expressed outrage, then that should be what we write. Whatever the verifiable facts are. There is plenty of room for facts and citations. There is no room for unsupported generalizations.<br />
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:A press release is not necessarily hard to find (and in fact there were several print articles in the SCV newsletters at the time discussing McPherson). Online electronic versiosn of press releases for a controversy that happened SIX YEARS AGO, on the other hand, are not easy to come by for the very obvious reasons of time and the fact that elderly geneologists aren't particularly known for posting their daily activities on the internet, an especially not 6 years ago when the internet was still relatively new to most people.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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For #4: If you have a scanner or a good digital camera, and access to the newsletters, then you could scan in some of the articles or LTE's that you would like to use for citations. Otherwise they aren't verifiable. That's one of the Wiki tenets. <br />
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:It is NOT a wiki tenet either that I have to dig up and scan a newsletter for you from half a decade ago to personally satisfy your selectively stringent citation demands on a matter that is already documented beyond any reasonable person's standards on the existing source link. Use a little common sense. It's not as if this controversy is being asserted out of the blue with nothing to back it up - there's a very detailed link that sources it through the UDC and details the progress of the controversy (including a quote where McPherson himself acknowledges his UDC *AND* SCV detractors and tries to respond to them).[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Regarding your other edits, you've basically reverted all of the editing that I did except for (some of) the new facts that I've added. I see that you wrote most of the previous article, but that doing so does not give an editor "ownership". The amount of space devoted to criticism is far in excess to the description of his many accomplishments, and it needs to be brought into balance. <br />
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:I attempted to incorporate what you added into the existing article. If I have missed something you added, by all means tell me what it is and we can put it back in. However you came along and completely reorganized the existing article without any sound reason offered and with an apparent goal of doing the exact same thing you did on the Sebesta and neo-confederate articles: propping up your side of the issue while downplaying and covering up anything and everything factual that potentially makes your side look bad. For example, others have made material critiques of both McPherson's politics AND his scholarship. One of the critiques of the latter was specified and linked to (i.e. McPherson's allegedly poor handling of economic issues). Yet your edit removed that critique from the discussion of his scholarship, stuck it in the bottom of the article with his political views, and added a positive quote about his scholarship in its place. I have no problem with that positive quote about his scholarship, but there's no reason to remove and relocate negative statements about his scholarship as well.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Please do not add ''ad hominem'' comments to the edit summaries; they are not necessary or helpful. I do not think that it is appropriate for you to be accusing me of pursuing a POV in editing this article. Please, let's focus on writing a fair, even-handed, verifiable biography of a history professor. Thanks. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I accused you of a POV because you are pushing the same type of POV that caused us to go down this same path in the other articles. In all three articles where we've had these discussions they've been about your edits that try to weaken or remove any material that isn't favorable to your opinion. You now evidently have a favorable opinion of McPherson - which is fine in itself. But, in light of that opinion, you are conducting your edits in a way that minimizes discussion of and diminishes portrayal of facts, events, and critics who reflect unfavorably upon McPherson. As I have said many times, I have no problem if you want to load up the article with every friendly quote of praise for McPherson imaginable and talk about whatever good stuff you want to that he's done. But when you go through and cleanse out factually valid and adequately referenced material (and don't give me this garbage about scanning newsletter images for you from six years ago on a commonly known subject that can be directly inferred from the existing links I have given you) that reflects negatively on him, it IS pushing a POV. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 07:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== More vague asertions ==<br />
<br />
# McP is "very politically active". The only specifics given are a petition (signed mostly by professors) opposing the Clinton impeachment and two columns in a magazine for professional historians. That counts as "slightly political active", if anything. Is there any other political activity? Is he a party committeman? Alderman? <br />
<br />
The point is that most historians who run historical organizations write about historical topics in their organization's magazine. McPherson has used it repeatedly to pontificate about modern political issues including twice on Bush and Iraq and another time on the Michigan affirmative action case. That isn't even a simple break from the routine of historical writing - its a consistent pattern. Nor is that the extent of his activism as discussed in the current article. He's also spoken out about modern confederate flag controversies such as South Carolina. There's also the Pacifica interview, which if you read the entire thing you'll find it was a political commentary show called [[Democracy Now!]] and the subject was George W. Bush. I'm certain there's plenty of other things he's done, but I don't think that list of repeated and constant modern political commentary is "slightly active" by any means.<br />
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# McP "...is a supporter of many liberal causes...". Which ones? Opposition to the rhetoric that led to the war in Iraq is not an especially liberal issue. (Moderates and Paleoconseravatives are opposed to it as well.) Let's list the liberal causes that he supports. There's room. <br />
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You're straining at gnats to deny the obvious, will. Some paleo-conservatives may oppose the war in Iraq, but they don't typically speak out in favor of an Affirmative Action court case or sign petitions supporting Bill Clinton. It is also my understanding that McPherson himself is open about his liberal leanings. A quick google search immediately pulls up three favorable articles written about him by leftist organizations that identify his politics as "progressive" or "liberal" [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml] [http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/257/257p27.htm]<br />
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# "McPherson has also espoused the removal of confederate flag imagery..." Cite please. I did a search and it didn't show up.<br />
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Did you simply not read the Pacifica interview despite all our discussions of it? [http://web.archive.org/web/20031217125644/www.templeofdemocracy.com/RadioPacificaBush.htm#UDCSCV] He says very plainly at the end of the interview that he opposes the contemporary use of the flags and criticizes Trent Lott for defending it.<br />
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:"I do know that the issue of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and also in Georgia where the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the state flag back in 1956, that those, that of those flags has a contemporary political agenda, and to the extent that any politician endorses that, I think Trent Lott did as well a couple of years ago, far more vigorously, I can't support them in doing that."<br />
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[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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# "Others criticism of McPherson note that his work is known to exhibit marxist or revolutionary themes - a historiographical complaint that has also been made against Civil War historian Eric Foner." Cite please. I couldn't find this one either. Are you saying that Foner and McPherson are a marxist school of Civil War historians? How is Foner related to McPherson? <br />
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See the DiLorenzo article links for a criticism of his marxist themes. His marxist/revolutionary themes are also discussed in the favorable articles about him that I linked to above [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcp1-m19.shtml] [http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/mcin-m18.shtml]. Foner is related to McPherson in that both are well know Civil War historians and both have reputations for marxist-revolutionary themes in their approach to the war.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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#"His grasp of economic issues ... are described as poor quality by ''some, including'' ...DiLorenzo." Is there another critic who describes his grasp of economic issues as poor quality? If so, who? Otherwise we should drop the "some, including" because it implies additional critics. If DiLorenzo is the one critic then we shouldn't put his words into the mouths of others.<br />
Please do not add this material back in until you can support these vague assertions. Thank you. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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Yes there are other critics, particularly at the Rockwell/Von Mises site. DiLorenzo is simply the most prominent of them and one of the best known academics to make this critique. Going through and naming each and every person who has ever blogged a critique of McPherson's economics though would be tedious and cluttery when DiLorenzo, who has a wiki article about him already, more than suffices.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 08:22, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I've added back some stuff you removed and modified others to include the specifics that you've filled in above. Thanks for providing that info. Regarding the AHA column, his predecessor is given the credit for setting the precedent of writing "president's columns" on politically-related issues. I've added a cite for that fact. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks for fixing the "Rockford Institute" I'd fixed it to the correct [[Lewrockwell.com]], but then somehow reverted myself in the next edit. I had used the description of Sebesta that the "Democracy Now" webpage uses for him. I don't know why it is important to say "''self''-described", when other people's terms can be be used to describe him. "Self-described" seems like a prejudicial formulation. NPOV please. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::''self''-described indicates that the description of Sebesta, "anti-neo-confederate," is a quote by Sebesta himself. Since Sebesta is a controversial figure who been described by any number of other sources in many different ways it presents a problem of how we identify him. Do we call him an "expert" as he is treated by Pacifica, a virulently left wing source? Or do we go to the other end and call him a "nutcase"? Or a "south hater" as the UDC calls him? The most neutral way around this problem is to quote Sebesta himself and note that he is the source of it. Another issue - the use of singular versus plural to refer to McPhersons critics is problematic. As was the case on the previous articles, using a specifically singular form is misleading because it implies that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person who holds that view, and that is inaccurate just as it is inaccurate to assume that only one UDC chapter was upset by McPherson's pacifica interview since their newsletter is the one on the web.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I suppose we could go through the other mentions of groups and individuals, and change everybody to "self-described." The SCV is a "self-described genealogical society", "DiLorenizo is a self-described economist", etc. I think that it is fair and appropriate to give the guy the reference that he was given on the show since that is the context and the reason he's being mentioned. If you are afraid that it will be taken as a universally accepted description, we can say that he is "described by Goodman as a..." Regarding the number of critics, I'm open to including whatever number is shown to exist. So far, it's the VA UDC and DiLorenzo. Regarding non-web sources, what are they? do you have in your hands on an SCV newsletter expressing "outrage" over McPherson's statemetns? If so, what's the name and date and page number? What evidence, of any kind, do you have? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 23:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::No. The SCV is by its own structure a geneological society (as in you have to be a descendant of a soldier to join). DiLorenzo is an economist because he has a credentialed PhD in economics. McPherson is a historian because he has a credentialed PhD in history and so forth. Sebesta, however, has no special credentials in anything related to neo-confederate movements and nothing particular about him establishes any credibility he should have beyond the average guy off the street. Because of that he could be easily assigned any number of descriptions and has been called everything from an expert to a nutcase. You may prefer the former and I the latter, but both of those terms would connote a POV so calling him what he calls himself and noting that he is the source of that description is the most neutral way I can think of approaching it. Using Goodman's description of him also gives her very liberal POV undue credibility, as Goodman's view of Sebesta (she considers him an "expert") is NOT universally shared and would be disputed by many people who consider him a non-credible kook. If we let Sebesta speak for himself, however, we find that he describes himself (hence "self-described") as an "anti-neo-confederate" activist. If you remove wording that signifies it's what he calls himself then you leave the description unsourced and without context (aren't you the one who keeps demanding that every detail imaginable be sourced? Or is your selective citation stringency kicking in again?). As to critics being "shown to exist" your selective stringency is indeed kicking in again. Your "standard" - if it could even be called that - for showing something to exist is being able to dig it up on google, which for purposes of citations is a laughable methodology. Using your terminology suggests that DiLorenzo is the SOLE person to criticize McPherson's biases and one single UDC chapter is the SOLE membership of the UDC to be upset over the quote, and that is simply incorrect. A neutral terminology such as that I have offered leaves the issue of concurring voices open without imposing any artificial and factually inaccurate constraint. And quite frankly if you don't know that the SCV and other UDC chapters were upset at McPherson's quote, then you don't know anything about the SCV or UDC and thus you are unqualified to be writing encyclopedia articles about them.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:FWIW, as the article is put together now, I think that the source of the criticism is clear enough. As long as we do not add back assertions from unnamed critics or impute emotions to organizations, I am satisfied with the handling of the Democracy Now, Politics, and Criticism sections. Overall, I think that the article could use a bit more of a description of his books and a photo or dustjacket would be cool. Thanks for helping to make this a better article. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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That is fine by me. If you know of a public domain photo of him by all means add it.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 01:05, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== "Marxist" Eric Foner ==<br />
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If [[Eric Foner]]'s "...marxist sympathies are well known and openly acknowledged by virtually all people who are familiar with him" then it should not be difficult to name one or two of those people. "unnamed critics" have no place in Wikipedia. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::It's no matter of "unnamed critics," will. One does not need a source to state that Ronald Reagan was a conservative, that Lyndon Johnson was a liberal, that Henry Wallace was a socialist, or that Eric Foner is a marxist. It is common knowledge to anybody possessing even the slightest familiarity with any of these figures. If you do not have enough familiarity to know this (and it is evident that you lack it on a great many of articles that you attempt to edit), you should not be trying to write an encyclopedia article on them in the first place.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::So you can't find even a single authority to cite? Maybe it isn't such common knowledge. If the critics are not named, they are "unnamed critics". -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
::::No. I've simply decided that I do not desire to go on one of your deconstructive "source" finding errands over a fact that is common knowledge among anybody who knows the subject matter, which you do not. I no longer see any purpose in responding to the requests of other editors who contribute absolutely nothing new to the articles they attempt to edit and instead send others out on tasks under the threat of deletion. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::::If you can't be bothered to support your assertions and cite your sources, then don't be surprised when the material is removed. That's the way Wikipedia works. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
Nice try, but last I checked nobody appointed you "Source Policeman." If you find a source is lacking in an article and want to make an issue of it the very first thing you should do is attempt to find one yourself! I am not here to run errands for you, and seeing as Foner's marxist beliefs were a part of the article on him from its very first version long before I arrived there, you have no right to assign that task to me. Going through articles and selectively deleting things that you deem unsourced is deconstructive and approaches vandalism when it is recurring and when it supplants the information with snide unprofessional remarks in the article's text, which you have done several times. Try contributing something to an article for once rather than this silly game of self appointed policeman.[[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 03:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Does this rant apply to you?==<br />
More guilt by association. Being liberal is bad, as is agreeing with Marxists about anything. Can we have diLorenzo introduced a few more times - maybe we could find out more about him here than there is on his page? and I don't think this article is quite 50% criticism of the guy yet. Maybe we could say he has no economics credentials a few more times. Get crackin'--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 05:58, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)<br />
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:Who are you addressing this to, Jim? DiLorenzo is mentioned in all of two paragraphs - one summarizing his criticism of McP's scholarship and the other his criticism of McP's political views. It only states that McPherson lacks economic credentials a total of once. And Marxist themes in McPherson's works are the subject of criticism over his scholarship - not a guilt by association thrown in their for no reason. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 06:26, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Cleanup==<br />
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This article needs to be cleaned up - there are significant grammatical mistakes throughout, and some NPOV work could be done too. I can't do this right now because I'm at school, and I'll probably forget by the time I get home, but it needs to be done. &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 16:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== predecessors ==<br />
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*'' My two immediate predecessors, Lynn Hunt and James McPherson, used the pages of Perspectives to share their thoughts on many matters concerning the writing of history, not excluding political and social commentary.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2004/0403/0403pre1.cfm]''<br />
This is the sentence that I regard as supporting the assertion that McPherson was not breaking ground by using the "President's View" for commentary beyond history. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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**If that is the case, (1) Hunt should be named specifically and (2) a direct link should be made to Hunt's opinion column including note of its subject. Otherwise it's a secondary source hearsay characterization with no real basis for comparison. If it turns out Hunt was advocating historical preservation funding whereas McPherson was ranting about his opposition to the war in Iraq, the two situations are hardly comparable in the sense implied. Find Hunt's material and we'll see based on it whether it is appropriate to include. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Hunt's material is on the same website, one year earlier than McPherson. It seems that you don't mind, in this case, removing the informaiton rather than asking for a source first. You jumped on my case for doing less on the Eric Foner article. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Actually, the source you gave simply happened to be a weak source relating second hand information. Since, unlike my case in the Foner article, you added this material, surely you can identify which article or articles by Hunt you are specifically referring to. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::::I took Hunt's word for it. I didn't reasearch the underlying material. You're welcome too. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:35, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==NPOV==<br />
The issue of mentioning DiLorenzo's involvement with the League of the South is problematic under [[WP:NPOV]] as the selective presentation of this fact in an article that is not about DiLorenzo has the potential to carry with it both strong positive and negative POV's due to the controversy surrounding the organization. Of all the potential introductions given for DiLorenzo, the choice of highlighting the most controversial organization (when, for example, DiLorenzo is also far more closely affiliated with several other organizations such as the Von Mises Institute) indicates a clear attempt to bias the POV of this article against/towards DiLorenzo based upon one's perceptions of the LOS. That creates a POV problem, as per the NPOV policy, "The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." In light of this, attempts to selectively highlight a fact that has strong non-neutral connotations may be construed as POV pushing and should be avoided. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:It has to be mentioned because it is important to judge DiLorenco's authenticity. The fact that DiLorenzo is affiliated to the Von Mises Institute is not important in this case to judge his authenticity. That's why does not have to be mentioned. You say: "If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral." Right. So let's have a look at the Academic critcism part. There are IMHO two strong positive facts and one neutral fact. <br />
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:*The caption implicates that DiLorenzo is an academic. Academic implicates neutrality and academic work. The impression of the reader must be high authenticity.<br />
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:*it is mentioned that he is an economic. Same as academic. That gives a high weight to the "McPherson's grasp of economic issues" assertion.<br />
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:The right way to create a NPOV is to mention all case relating facts the reader needs to adjudicate.<br />
:So let's create an NPOV article by mentioning DiLorenzos affiliation to the League of the South or skip that part. When we keep it, all relevant and important information has to be mentioned.<br />
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:[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Yet another sentence==<br />
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The (he has none) assertion has to be cut off. IMHO can be assumed that in 40 years practicing as [[Doctor of Philosophy]] McPherson has had enough time and intellectual skills to learn everything about economics he needs to know for his work. Learning about economics includes the training of economic grasp. So it can rather be assumed that McPherson has SOME (maybe still not enough) economic grasp than to assume that he has none as the sentence (he has not) does.<br />
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[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 23:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Willmcw~enwiki&diff=24745575User talk:Willmcw~enwiki2005-10-04T18:20:32Z<p>E^(nix): What do you think about User Rangerdude contributions?</p>
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<div>*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive1]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive2]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive3]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive4]]<br />
*[[User talk:Willmcw/archive5]] July 2005<br />
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== RE: [[User:66.133.213.116]] ([[User talk:66.133.213.116|Talk]]) ==<br />
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Normally doesn't an admin go back through and delete all the External (commercial plugs) links that these guys ([[User:66.133.213.116]] ([[User talk:66.133.213.116|Talk]])) add? [[User:WikiDon|WikiDon]] 19:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, anyone can revert spam that doesn't significantly help the articles. Admins can do it a little more easily, when they have the time. ;) -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:29, August 2, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Not Spamming ==<br />
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Hi. Thank you for visiting me about your concern for spamming. I have been doing some additions about American Film Foundation, a non-profit production company run by Academy and Emmy award-winning filmmakers Terry Sanders and Freida Lee Mock. My understanding, and that of my wife ([[Designmotif]]), is that because their work is considerably valuable we have created the appropriate internal pages about them and their remarkable films because much of Wikipedia is lacking in information about them. We begun adding the articles in the hope that other users will contribute. And we've added specific external links where appropriate, linking directly to the films, many of which are difficult to find. The question of spamming is a good one, given that Amazon.com (IMDB site), Sony and other major commercial websites have been allowed to add their external links with no real reference to the pages they are added to either I might add. I'm getting very annoyed by the accusations of spamming. We are going by guidelines here. So I will return the page to it's previous condition, as it's not spamming. Please don't target American Film Foundation and their vast body of work as spam.<br />
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Thanks, [[User:JaimeyWB|JaimeyWB]] 06:22, 2 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[National Vanguard (American organization)]] ==<br />
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Hey Will. Some anonymous user has been repeatedly deleting the statement that this article is referred to as a White supremacist organization. It would greatly help if you take a look at this article. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 18:16, 2 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks for pointing that out. I'll keep it on my watchlist. However I think that since "white nationalist" and "white supremacist" seem to be two names for the same thing, and since one is offensive while the other is (apprently) not, I'd suggest leaving it with "nationalist". On the [[White nationalist]] article you can clarify the relationship between the terms. "White supremacist" may be accurate but, as we saw with [[List of White supremacists]], it leads to editing problems. (Almost everyone on that list would object to being called a "supremacist" but would embrace "nationalist", I expect.) Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 18:25, August 2, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Scoopex ==<br />
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Thanks for the heads-up. I wasn't sure how to construe the claims of permission on the talk page, but after another, more-awake look, it appears that you're right. Zealously yours, [[User:NatusRoma|NatusRoma]] 02:05, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==Wikipedia stalking==<br />
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This user has been engaged in a stalking campiagn against me. I have to assume at this point that Willmcw is "Bill White", given his interest in posting personal details to the entry about me. I'm asking that this editor cease and desist from making any more edits to the entry about me. If this user persists, other measures will be taken. [[User:24.94.181.211|24.94.181.211]] 19:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:"You" meaning [[Chuck Munson]], aka [[user:Chuck0]]. The "personal details" you refer to include your educational background, which is standard biographical info, taken from your own blog. If you wish to keep this info private, you should not post it on the internet. Alternatively, if you wish, we can nominate your biography (and all the other articles on your projects that you posted) for deletion. However while they are here please do not censor information from them. They are not "your" articles. Please note that I have left numerous messages on the relevant talk pages regarding this issue which you have ignored. Regarding me being the same person as [[Bill White (activist)]], making such an assumption makes you appear to be ill-informed. Please be more careful before assuming things. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:49, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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I have every right to assume that you are Bill White and I will tell people on Wikipedia that you are the same person as long as you continue your obession with my entry. I have good reasons right now to prevent personal information out of my entries. In a few weeks, I probably won't care, but you need to learn to have some respect for a person's privacy. You may see this as a little hobby here on Wikipedia, but this information being on the Internet affects my ability TO PAY THE RENT AND EAT. Do you understand? [[User:Chuck0|Chuck0]] 22:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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: Hello [[User:Chuck0]], since you are blanking my notices on your talk page I will comment here. Whether or not you are in fact the same person as the one described in the [[Chuck Munson]] article, please stop removing information which is publicly available elsewhere on the internet from the Wikipedia biography, this is considered vandalism. [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 22:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::[[User:Chuck0|Chuck0]], can you please explain how posting the name of your alma mater prevents you from earning money? The same information that you have posted onto your own blog? I'm afraid that I do not understand how posting the info on your blog is harmless but posting it here damages your career. Again, if you do not want articles about yourself or your projects then we can nominate them for deletion (though there is no guarantee of how the vote will go). And, if any of the informaiton is wrong then we'd be happy to correct the information. However please don't simply delete it. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:33, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Chuckle ==<br />
''del "superhottie" based on blog vote -- unencyclopedic info'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_G._Roberts%2C_Jr.&curid=1928850&diff=20364924&oldid=20363632] -- You mean to tell me this was actually voted on? ;) [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 21:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:In my view, only the three top superhottie judges should be noted. Otherwise we'll have partisans of all the contestants trying to spam is with the info. We've got to draw the line somewhere. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:41, August 5, 2005 (UTC)<br />
I too have had numerous troubles with Bill White [[User:Steve Espinola| Steve Espinola]][[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 02:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== User Crosstar ==<br />
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Hi will, I just wanted to let you know that [[User:Crosstar|Crosstar]] has begun to make legal threats against me. The edit summary of his last edit to my talk page was "Lawsuit anyone?", the contents of which you can read [[User talk:Kaldari|here]]. I'm beginning to run out of patience for his belligerence, but I'll wait and see what happens with the copyvio requests. Cheers. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 04:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Though he's hasn't said one way or another, the user is very likely to be Barrett or a deputy. The "movement" seems to comprise a few marches and speeches, and lot of lawsuits. I don't think it's really worth getting into a fight to keep the images. We can always post an arrow-star and say "it look like this but with a red background." I think that the logo-fair use exception to the copyright laws is sufficient, but since he objects so strenuously why fight it? The images don't reveal any particular truth, just Barrett's face and his silly, unoriginal logo. Well, ok, those are important truths. However, this is a long-term project. If we have to wait a dozen years to add his photo then that'll do too. Maybe we should delete the images for now and move to have him banned for legal threats. That'd remove both his cause and the disruption. But if you feel the images are important then I'd try to help. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:58, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Here are my thoughts on the issue: I think having the logo in the article is important. Having information available about hate groups and their tactics, symbols, etc is a valuable service to the public (although perhaps not Wikipedia's first priority). I think Crosstar doesn't have a leg to stand on legally (but I'm not a lawyer). Personally I think Crosstar knows this and is bluffing. If he's not bluffing, I think such a case would be an important legal precedent for Wikipedia (either way it turned out). I'm sure there would be no shortage of lawyers who would want to represent Wikipedia pro bono on the matter (maybe even Lessig). In short, I can't see a down side to fighting it out. BTW, I find it extremely ironic that an organization known for defending free speech is now trying flagrantly to repress it. If you feel strongly that a cooling-off period is the way to go, I can go along with that, although given Crosstar's apparent fanaticism, I doubt it would make much of a difference. I also have my doubts about banning him, given the Arbitration committee's reluctance to adequately reprimand problem users. Is it just me or do they always seem to give trolls a slap on the wrist? I suppose it's good to offer people a 2nd chance, but at what cost? But maybe that's just a poor impression from the last few RfAs I've followed. What do you think? [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 21:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:::Without delving into the RfA issue too much, I'd say that banning is not the right way after all. The policy against legal threats is weaker than I thought it was. So is Crosstar's case. In sum, I take back most or all of the advise I gave above and see the merit in working to retain as much verifiable information about this group as we can, whether the info be text or graphic. ("Verifiability" is the rub - Crosstar wrote all of the articles and we're still trying to bring them into proper shape.) Thanks for standing up for what's right, in the face of bullying. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:17, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== nationalist.org ==<br />
you've probably seen these, but just in case you haven't; [http://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia+site%3Anationalist.org&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official]<br />
--[[User:Duk|Duk]] 08:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Why do I feel as if we've been set up? Thanks for the info. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 08:44, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Also check this out: [http://www.skinheadz.com/news/articles/2005/jul/falls.html]. [[User:Alex756|&#8212; &copy; ]] [[User talk:Alex756| Alex756]] 15:30, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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==[[Chuck Munson]]==<br />
Likes like [[User:Ruy Lopez]] has decided to edit-war on Chuck's behalf. Check it out. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 11:05, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:I saw he VfD'ed [[Chuck Munson]], which could be interpreted as benefitting Chuck (Wikipedia).... Chuck didn't need help, but maybe [[User:Ruy Lopez]] will be more communicative than Chuck. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:41, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::Lopez sure likes to "rv". Whew. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:53, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[Pseudoscientific metrology]] ==<br />
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You removed [[anti-metric movement]] from [[pseudoscience]]. Fair enough, but the issue is that the anti-metric movement seems to have spurred lots of pseudoscience of metrology (usually based on [[numerology]]). The purpose of which is of course to prove that the English foot has divine properties which can be traced with absolute accuracy back to Mesopotamia. Or Stonehenge (see [[Megalithic yard]]). -- [[User:Egil|Egil]] 13:48, 6 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:[[Megalithic yard]] appears to be a clear pseudo-science. But the issues you mention are not included in the [[anti-metric]] article, and I don't think they are relevant. The article on [[metrology]] doesn't mention anything pseudoscientific, so it served just as a definition of a word that we could leave out. Thanks, for being reasonable. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:38, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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::I've now collected various material on [[Pseudoscientific metrology]] in general. Great fun, really. Seems that at least some of the recent activity is clearly [[anti-metric]]. I'd appreciate it if you would review it. -- [[User:Egil|Egil]] 12:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== To Willmcw from Aperey ==<br />
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I have, for the moment, withdrawn from the editing war with Outerlimits and the organizations he is evidently representing. I think the section he is contributing so voluminously to -- and so unfairly to -- should be reverted, as you thought possible, to just after the article was opened up. Persistence and volubility do not mean one is telling the truth--only that one is better able to make one's version stick better. He is relying on false accusations to make his story look acceptable to you and others, and to bully the opposition and anyone who might agree with it. It is a fact that creationists quote Darwin to make their case--they do make Darwin look like an anti-religious lout and a dangerous man--but Darwin is still right and stands more for revererence than they do. The analogy is a pretty apt one, as Outerlimits has no shortage of quotes--only he is wrong in the impression he uses these quote to give. -- Arnold Perey<br />
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:I'd have more sympathy for you if you were not the editor who started, without prior discussion, a major re-write of the agreed-upon section that we all worked on while protection was in place. The "trick" is not to outlast your opponent - the trick is to find a compromise which is acceptable to everyone (and then stick to it). Also, can you clarify is [[user:Ethiopianrunner]] is, or is not, one of your accounts. If it is, please do not use it to edit the same articles that you edit with the [[user:APerey]] account. Otherwise it makes it appear as if you are two separate people, which is misleading. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:10, August 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Thanks for the changes at [[Swami Kriyananda]] ==<br />
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That link reorganization is intelligent and really cleans things up. --[[User:Jocosley|jocosley]] 00:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Biff Rose ==<br />
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Huh? You write a good deal, but not very well. Shut up and let the words go on with the gooders. [[User:216.175.113.48|216.175.113.48]] 04:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== Stormfront ==<br />
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Hi Will. Just to let you know that the [http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/12081154.htm link] you left in the new "Controversies" section in [[Stormfront]] happens to be a secure website that creates an account for some online newspaper. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 07:59, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== [[Tom Dooley (humanitarian)]] ==<br />
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You removed the section on his humanitarian work, on the basis of a potential copyright violation. If this was because of its similarity to some of the text at http://www.freewebs.com/tomdooleyfund/ then I believe there is no violation: the author of that website was the contributor of the section and, although similar in factual content, the text was edited to be different. On that basis, will you object if I reinstate it? [[User:Fibula|Fibula]] 12:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:Unfortunately I didn't note which site came up as having the same text. I believe it was probably the "freewebs" site, but their server is down so I can't tell for sure. Since you were the contributor does that mean that you are the author and copyright holder? Based on the small amount of text, and the lack of controversy over its inclusion, I wouldn't object to it being reinstated. However do be careful in the future. If you are uploading your own copyrighted texts then you might note in the edit summary that you are releasing it under GFDL so that future editors won't also assume them to be violations. Dooley was an interesting individual and I'm glad we have an article about him. Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:22, August 7, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sorry for spam... I notice you added a test note... ==<br />
<br />
I am currently in discussions with Ozemail regarding persistent vandalism that has been occuring from the following IP addresses in their network:<br />
<br />
<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.234}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.235}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.236}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.237}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.238}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.239}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.96.240}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.246}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.247}}<br />
*{{vandal|203.166.99.252}}<br />
<br />
I need assistance with all the specific items of vandalism. I have setup a page to gather this evidence at [[User:Ta bu shi da yu/Ozemail]].<br />
<br />
I need your help! Please use the format:<br />
<br />
* '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ta_bu_shi_da_yu&diff=20311223&oldid=20311029 13:30, 5 August 2005]<br />
** Added abusive text to [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] user page<br />
<br />
We'll see just how good their service is at responding to this sort of thing - we should be supporting any company that assists us. Therefore, I'm hoping that the Wikipedia spirit of cooperation and immense amount of volunteers will help with tracking down vandal edits.<br />
<br />
If Ozemail gives a good response, we can use them as an example of a good ISP, and maybe even shame AOL into assisting us (we get lots of vandalism from them).<br />
<br />
[[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 01:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
==Falsified source==<br />
The quote[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Shockley&diff=20505538&oldid=20494878] you attribute to "[http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-spermbank23jun05,1,1795083.story Darwin's Engineer]," an article that you claim to know is not available online,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AWilliam_Shockley&diff=20505640&oldid=18051644] does not appear in that article. We both just want these pages to be the best they can, so that readers can come to them and say that that article is a model of neutrality and fairness --even though we all dislike these figure's views. --[[User:Nectarflowed|Nectarflowed]] [[User_talk:Nectarflowed|<sup>T</sup>]] 04:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC) (P.S., use bugmenot.com to bypass the free registration)<br />
<br />
:I know the article is not available online because I immediately checked it back when the issue came out. But it's in there. You'll have to go to the library. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:12, August 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::My mistake - I'd finally thrown out the magazine, and when I'd checked at the time the article was not available. I know I've seen that quote around somewhere. We'll find it. Thanks for being vigilant. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:15, August 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:::Presume good faith. Cheers. [[User:Nskinsella|NSKinsella (Stephan Kinsella)]] 05:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Guy Montag again==<br />
<br />
Can you please block him for another break of the 3RR [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Guy_Montag_2].[[User:Heraclius|Heraclius]] 01:35, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I don't understand. I wasn't the one who violated the 3RR. How come when I violated it you blocked me, but here you just protect the page?[[User:Heraclius|Heraclius]] 03:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It looked to me as if you had violated the 3RR. Why don't you spend the time that you would have been blocked by trying to settle this dispute? If not, go write some new article. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Biff Rose ==<br />
<br />
I understand that you are trying to get the information out and avoid vandalism. Unfortunately in the case of Biff Rose, you merely take the words of his'fans' and not that of his detractors, casting some very useful information into the wastebasket. <br />
<br />
This makes the point that you are not editing as merely presenting your opinion. <br />
<br />
Rose has some very racist remarks on his website, has said them in live performances, clearing out whole rooms, and recorded the mon his records, as far back as 1974. He has been a proponent of anti semticism for some time.<br />
<br />
IT bears more research than a simple post on Rose's own messageboard. I understand you are on here trying to make the wiki a better space, and I applaud that effort, but please know, there are not only critics who manipulate and vandalize, but those who have the good intentions of extoling the truth about a person place or thing that they report on. Rose is indeed anti semitic and racist, as well as Misogynistic. It's in his lyrics, on his website, and in his performances, and has been for quite some time. PLease take a closer look, and realize that perhaps this information does equal the positive side of Biff Rose, and should be included in his wikipedia record.<br />
<br />
:Add whatever sourced material is available, positive or negative. But please do not remove information. That is just vandalism. You'll see that I haven't removed charges that his current websites have apparently anti-semitic material. They do. But that doesn't mean he didn't write some hit songs way back when. There's room for both. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:14, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vacay ==<br />
<br />
Blah! Not happy. Yesterday morning I was lying on the beach. Today I'm at my desk. Actually I'm wearing sandals today that still have sand in them. Thanks for the welcome back. I'll be leaving again in a couple weeks for Costa Rica, so I've got to work fast to get caught up around here. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 20:06, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Espinola?==<br />
It seems obvious I've stumbled into something, and I'm not sure what's going on. All I removed was an entry at [[User:Steve espinola]], which contained a personal attack and little else. Even if [[User:Steve espinola]] is a POV-pusher himself (and I'm not saying he is--I know nothing of this case), his userspace is still his own, and if he chooses to have it red, he shouldn't have it defaced by attacks on him. Best wishes, [[User:Meelar|Meelar]] [[User talk:Meelar|(talk)]] 21:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Normally I'd agree, but if it's a case of impersonating a (minor) celebrity, then I'd say that it is appropriate to somehow distinguish that the user is not the celebrity. I've left a second note on your page regarding a proposed solution for establishing who is who. Your help, as a disinterested party, would be appreciated. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My identity ==<br />
<br />
Yes I can prove that I am indeed Esteban "Steve" Espinola. I was born in Ciudad juarez in Mexico, in 1974. I received my green card at age 11 with my parents emigrating to the United States.<br />
<br />
But you know what, why do I have to prove anything to you? You mess with my user page, and I don't like it. Leave me out of your petty indignation, look at my history, Biff Rose, is but a fly on what I'm trying to do with Wikipedia.<br />
<br />
Please leave me alone. You are a troll, and I've alerted more people about you. If you erase this, then please leave my own user site alone!!!![[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 22:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)Steve Espinola<br />
<br />
:Can you please add a statement to your user page or talk page to the effect that you are not the famous singer named Steve Espinola? That would clarify the matter. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:18, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Steve Espinola here ===<br />
<br />
YOu want me to say I am not a musicianm but I live and record in L.A.<br />
<br />
I think the 'famous' singer Steve Espinola maybe pranking you on my background.<br />
<br />
:The relevance is that the singer Steve Espinola is an associate of Biff Rose. By impersonating him you appear to be a friend making denigrating edits about Rose. The coincidence of names is rather far-fetched. If you clarify who you are then this won't be a problem. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:36, August 9, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
***********<br />
<br />
This is giving me a headache. I'm Biff Rose's friend Steve Espinola, a piano playing songwriter. I'm the guy who has been posting as "Sojambi Pinola," and made revisions to the Biff Rose page under that name. I don't usually email from SteveEspinola.com, as it forwards to my regular aol email. But if you send an email from my webpage I can respond from my aol, and prove it's the same guy. hmmm... I have some ideas.<br />
<br />
Someone with an email address similar to your name has written to a guy named Joe/P.Dickle, who is also a friend of Biff's, and Biff has forwarded these emails to me. I suspect that those emails are legit, but this vandal guy could have been impersonating you, so I dunno. ughhhhh.<br />
<br />
-[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] August 9, 2005<br />
<br />
:Yes, I did send some emails to him, originally to ascertain if the websites were real (they are pretty wild). So then you are also [[user:216.57.63.47]]? It seems plausible, as that is a NYC IP and the singer Espinola is supposed to live there. For me that is sufficient to establish identity. We are still trying to establish the identity of [[user:Steve espinola]] (small "e"), who now claims to be a Los Angeles musician from Mexico. Sorry for the hassles, but considering the situation it seems important to make clear that the editor who has been adding an apparently anti-Rose POV to the article is not the Espinola who is an associate of Rose. Whew. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:19, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I think both of you are making trouble. I'm exactly who I say I am, and have an earthlink account that I've used for years. But since this has developed, I'm worried about internet harrassment. Look at my other edits, and judge for yourself if I'm some vandal out to wreck this site, which I was invited to work on by a friend, and have done some strong edits for. I am Esteban 'Steve' Espinola, and I livei n Los Angeles. I play Norteno and Banda variants of the Ranchera style music. I do it professionally. Becasue of downtime I thought htis would eb a good way to help others, and create inroads into this excellent idea. I'm new to this place, but from what Ican tell, your behavior, in lauding me as some vandal, has in itself been libelous and vandal prone.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 01:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I haven't called you a vandal, I told [[user talk:Jonah Ayers]] that deleting material can be vandalism. I have called you a sock puppet, and I think you have picked this particular username to confuse other people, just as you used [[user:Biffrose]] previously. I think that you are also [[user:Dearth vader]], who made grossly fraudulent edits in order to disparage Rose,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association&diff=prev&oldid=18223074][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Adam_Carr/Documents1&diff=prev&oldid=18223766] and another edit attacking [[user:Sojambi Pinola]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sojambi_Pinola&diff=prev&oldid=18222939] I think you are also:<br />
:*[[user:216.175.116.151]], [[user:216.175.121.239]], [[user:216.175.116.198]], [[user:Biffrose]], [[user:Jonah Ayers]], [[user:Varg Virkennes]], [[user:Bad apple]], [[user:Mmmmmmbo]], [[user:Efrim walzer]], [[user:Steve espinola]], [[user:Peace through superior edits]]. <br />
:Most recently, I think you are [[user:Peter Pie]] who added a photo to [[Biff Rose]] just 3 minutes after you uploaded it with this username.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Biff_Rose&diff=20652280&oldid=20639720][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Hit-9.jpg&oldid=20652154] I think you have some particular vendetta against Biff Rose, and have been deleting his achievements while adding unsupported and libellous accusations about him to this encyclopedia, and while attacking anyone who attempts to defend Rose. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:57, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
(revised answer) Indeed, I posted as 216.57.63.47. I was lazy. Sorry. (Is all time-stamping manual, by the way?)<br />
We are unlikely to "resolve" this "dispute" in a civil manner; It's not really a dispute, but a guy making trouble. Why is he doing it? Why do people commit crimes? All evidence suggests that the guy is a sociopath, or at least a guy bent on revenge. Unless I am missing something, his claims about posting as SE on Wikipedia are easily proven to be false. I don't think the other "Steve Espinola" posted on Wikipedia until this week, though he claims otherwise on his user page. That is to say, he did not post under that name, though he's obviously posted as some ten to twenty different people. By the way, I find it charming and kind that you referred to me as "famous." I have a humble following, though I've played with some better-known people.-[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] August 9, 2005<br />
<br />
:You can easily sign and date your talk page comments by typing four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end. I'm sorry if I've mislabelled you - not everyone wants to be famous, or is (beyond their Warhol-mandated fifteen minutes, of course). And I don't know if you're a friend or fan or what of Roses - I happened to see you conducted a taped interview with him so I assume you are some kind of associate. None of this would normally matter, but if you are a known associate of Rose's, and if another user comes along and uses the same name, then it it makes that choice of name appear intentionally misleading. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:58, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Harrasment by Willmcw==<br />
<br />
I joined wikipedia the past week. Instead of being welcomed with open arms, as my friends who also joined recently, I was assaulted with accusations by this user. He called me things I had no idea about, and implied wrongdoing where there was none. He is a sockpuppet of Biff Rose, and is working agaisnt the guidelines of wikipedia. He tries to bully users, implying he has more power than he actually does. And he does not adhere to the wiki rules, he has indicated he would try to get me banned. He will deny this, as he has on my own user page. I didn't want to visit hiss page with this talk, but he keeps adding insulting and untrue things on my user discussion page. Willmcw is a SOCK PUPPET of Biff Rose, and has been posting on Rose's website, then posting Rose's words directly onto the wikipedia entry on Rose. BAD WIKI USER[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 00:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks for the welcome. What is a sock puppet? ok thanks[[User:Peter Pie|Peter Pie]] [[User:Peter Pie|Peter Pie]] 23:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br><br />
<br><br />
"Mexican Steve E", On your user page you claim you've been contributing to Wikipedia since September 2004. Here you say you are new. Which is it? Your story is not consistent.<br />
<br />
[[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] 9 August 2005<br />
<br />
== Willmcw hasa sock puppet called Sojambi Pinola ==<br />
<br />
It is you who very well seem to be serving as a sock puppet for biff rose. I have just joined this site. But when I went ot Biff Rose's website, I found you had posted to not only that site, but also to a friend of rose, in order to discredit anything I had written. But if you had stayed at the site long enough to look around, you would have found a host of lyrical postings to the tune of racist and anti semitic quotations. I'm exactly who I say I am, though I've noticed in all your attempts to identify me as someone other than myself, you have never fully identified yourself. Is sojambi pinola a sock puppet of your cerations, I think so. You keep attempting to control me, and yet I think it is very apparent you have completely disavowed the way of Wikipedia in your path to please Biff Rose, and keep things to his advantage on the posting. Read his lyrics, and look at his postings where he makes fun of the African American children whose faces he has just painted. Then try to deduce how my edits are truly vandalism, which you in fact did say, and then vandalized my own page, prompting meelar to fix it, and notify me of the action. You must stop harrassing me. Each of these has been sent to different editors and mediators to mark the trouble you have caused. You may be tenacious, but I am not going to stand for the unjust actions of a sock puppet who practices fascistic edits. This is supposed to be a place of learning, not of close minded ness. Listen to the songs of Biff rose. I hate that you equate me with people who would lie about him. I never have added anything that is not based in the facts of his websites, most notably the message board of biffrose.com and on biffrose.biz, and jewmanity.com. [[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Completely debased and defaming me. Terrible Wiki user<br />
P.S. Now willmcw has libeled my edits though he hasn't read the previous versions of what I've edited, and has claimed I did no editing whatsoever. Now they may have actual mistakes still inside, but I have actually fixed the more glaring misinformation and poor grammar. I think it is terrible to launch this kind of accusation. You are boorish and thuglike in your behavior, you realize that by smearing my name, more will believe you than me, and I will be tord assunder. Well it's not right, you are a diseervice to a grand idea, and I have alerted the editors and requested a mediation because you refuse to stop meddling in my user page.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:26, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== AMA request for assistance ==<br />
<br />
I thought I'd let you know thisos one of the places I've gone to get help from the barrage of your insults and baseless accusations. Where haveI ever accused Rose of being a child molester? I have never made aany statement at all in that vein. I have called his lyrics anti semtic and racist, which I think you will find there is a strong dose of if you further inspected his site..well actually I believe you to be a friend of Rose's and working either in cahoots with or sock puppeting Sojambi Pinola. Who claims to be the only Steve Espinola in the world. I never claimed I was that Steve Espinola, but a resident of Hollywood, and a musician of norteno music. Anyhow, hopefully you will refrain from contacting me, or posting on my page, as we wait our mediation. But if you continue to post on my page insults and untruths and speculation and accusations I will be forced to reply on your page to what I surmise is a clever but wholly unfair way of discrediting me further. Leave off my page til the end of our mediation. I have noted with other mediators in subpages about this posting, so even if you erase it, it has been noted I posted this to you.[[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] 06:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A perusal of the actual claim by me says NOT that I am the only Steve Espinola, nor that there are "only four Steve Espinolas," but that there are "at least four Steve Espinolas." Willmcw makes a good point that if there is a Steve Espinola who is an associate of Biff Rose's (um, that would be me, and I can prove it to anyone who cares), then the claim of another Steve Espinola who is invested in Biff's biography is, to say the least, a little suspect. Willmcw seems like a perfectly decent person, trying to contribute in a positive way to a world community project. He's obviously deeply involved in this encyclopedia, with credits to prove it, and you'd have a hard time successfully defaming him. Why are you involving him in your vendetta? [[User:Sojambi Pinola|Sojambi Pinola]] 13:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for your support ==<br />
[[Image:Janitor's bucket with mop.jpg|thumb|75px|right|'''The mop is mine!''']]<br />
Thank you for voting to support [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Malathion|my RFA]]. I've been promoted, and I promise to wield the mop with good faith, patience, and fairness... except when I'm exterminating vandals with the M-16 recoilless nuclear Gatling mop. --[[User:malathion|malathion]] [[User talk:malathion|<sup><b>talk</b></sup>]] 08:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nablus again ==<br />
<br />
Hi - Could you please re-lock [[Nablus]] and maintain this indefinitely until there is progress to your satisfaction on the discussion page? I found some activity overnight that seems to indicate a compromise has not been reached. Thanks [[User:Ramallite|Ramallite]] <sup><small><font color="DarkBlue">[[User_talk:Ramallite|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 13:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I see that [[User:Dbachmann]] is editing. He usually does a good job. Let's let him work and see if the outcome is acceptable to everyone. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 14:14, August 10, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== OMFG!!! Steve espinola !!! ==<br />
<br />
OMFG!!!<br />
<br />
I spent '''*hours*''' migrating September 2004 cleanup archives to the new system, and then I look at this [[Special:Contributions/Steve_espinola|espinola's contribution list]] and i go, ''wtf?! I migrated '''*all*''' those!'' I'm relatively new to wikipedia (started late July) and I don't know what to do, but it is incredibly frustrating :-) I think he outright vandalized some pages too (by deleting lots of good content), such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Canning_how-to&oldid=20671096 Canning revision].<br />
<br />
Is there a wikified way of citing particular revisions? I just quote the entire URL.<br />
<br />
[[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Mmmmmmbo Connection ==<br />
Holy carp [sic]!! The ''*other*'' guy who reverted several of my cleanup tags in articles that '''*seriously*''' needed work has a comment on Steve's talk page<br />
I think your version is great Mmmmmmbo<br />
It sort of beggars belief that they arent in on it, and since Mmmmbo's account is 5 days old and involved in several edit wars, I believe it might just be a shell for anonymity. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Citation ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for your CCC citation. I'm pretty sure they don't qualify as [[White supremacist]]s however, based on [http://www.buildingdemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=47 your cite], and the definition of white supremacism. [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Ah, I just read [http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/CCCitizens.asp?xpicked=3&item=12], so I guess you were right again. Good job. [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There are plenty of people who say unkind things about the CCC. Frankly, I'm unclear about the distinction, in the real world, between so-called white supremacists and white nationalists. In any case, they've been called both. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:25, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Its similar to the distinction between racism and racialism, more an intellectual or philosophical split than something that neatly divides. Basically, a white nationalist wants to run away and hide, or kick out minorities. A white supremacist wants to enslave/kill other races, and rule over them. So Hitler would be a White Supremacist, and [[white separatists]] would be white nationalist, in theory. In practice, individual people have their own opinions, and often neither they nor their organisation neatly fits into these catagories. I'm a bit surprised at the [[Council of Conservative Citizens]] being accused thusly, due to their ties to successful politicians, but whatever, your cites are good enough. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][[User talk:Sam Spade|¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Sam_Spade ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸] 01:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Espinola + Peter pie ==<br />
<br />
Check out [[:Image:Hit-9.jpg]]!! I found this ... a duplicate pic was put up by [[User:Peter Pie]] in the Biff Ross article. So, there are at least three sockpuppets with this guy. [[User:Sojambi Pinela]] [[User:Mmmmmmbo]] [[User:Peter Pie]] [[User:Steve espinola]]. All created since 4th August. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Func's RfA :) ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, I want to thank you for supporting my adminship, very much appreciated! :)<br />
<br />
Please never hesitate to let me know if you have concerns with any administrative action I may make.<br />
<br />
[[User:Func|Func]](&nbsp;[[User_talk:Func|t]],&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Func|c]],&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Func|e]],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&user=Func &nbsp;]&nbsp;) 18:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Mediation ==<br />
<br />
Sorry I've been lax in responding to you guys. Are you ready to start mediation? [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 20:18, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Sure, thanks for asking. When last we tried to start the other party didn't want to use email as a communication method. I would like to any type of confidential, non-public mediation that can be arranged. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:27, August 11, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Harry Dexter White ==<br />
I would object to the inclusion of IHR materials on the [[Harry Dexter White]] article. There are other sources that can be used on the Morgenthau plan, namely the Morgenthau Diary. Why the exception in this case? [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:What exception? Why do you want to remove their link? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:11, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
*I stuck my nose in on this one and ditched the holocaust denier link. Holocaust denier sites are not reliable encyclopedic sources (except, of course, when discussing holocaust denial.) --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 01:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::That may be so, but until we're sure that we've remoevd all of the information sourced from it, and from other publications by Kubek, I think it should stay. To present their POV without giving any hint of its source would be misleading. Quite a number of assertions use the "Morgenthau Diaries" as their source, but without specifying if they are relying on Kubek's 81-page introduction or the actual source material. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:31, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Then that's the exception Nobs01 was asking about. On general principle, I delete ihr.org links on sight. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 01:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Thanks jpgordon; excerpts from the Morganthau Diary may be available and would be a much more authorive source. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Willmcw: Also, I will do a reversion to the original article if there is a question regarding the insertions of the alleged sockpuppet Coqsportif. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 01:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Dinsmore Alter ==<br />
<br />
:Nice work on Dinsmore Alter. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
Thanks mate, much appreciated. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 23:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Many Thanks==<br />
Thanks for supporting my RFA. It couldn't have happened without your effort. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 17:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Wikipedia:Stalking]] ==<br />
<br />
I agree with you entirely that this is not a semi policy and that the new version of the [[template:guideline]] template doesn't work since it has not been accepted by community consensus, instead I put back in a version that I use every once in awhile [[user:Jtkiefer/guideline]] it is more like the old guideline template and I think the wording fits, if you disagree I'm always up for discussions on it but I think that the wording of this fits. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:39, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::That'll work great once this essay is accepted by the community as a guideline. However that has not happened yet, that I am aware of. Please see the steps at [[Wikipedia:How to create policy]]. Unitl is has been approved, it is not a guideline. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:41, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Fair enough, if you have any idea on how best to word it to make it a good guideline please don't hesitate to leave a message on the page's talk page, my talk page, or just make the edit yourself, it seems to change quite a bit with every person who edits it which is another reason why it probably isn't ready to be a guideline yet. Thanks. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:51, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I also left a little note at [[Wikipedia_talk:Stalking#guideline_tag]] about probably not using it until after the community has noticed and accepted it since as far as I know most of wikipedia hasn't even noticed that it exists yet. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="FF9900">Jtkiefer<font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Jtkiefer|<font color=#00A86B>T</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="FF0033">@</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="0000FF">C</font>]]</sup> </small> ----- 07:57, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Admin powers==<br />
Cool. Admins can tracelessly undo calls for votes for deletion. Must the crackpot [[Liquid Nitrogen Economy]] article be sheltered from a VfD for some deep Wikipedian reason? I think the article needs more scrutiny and I also think it's not an appropriate encyclopedia topic; this article is now the (Web) world authority on the topic (mostly because no-one elese is considering wholesale substititution of liquid nitrogen for oil except my esteemed co-editor pcrabb). --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] 17:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:A: I don't know what you're talking about. B: Admins cannot do anything "tracelessly" that I am aware of. C: Nobody is suggesting replacing oil with Nitrogen, it's only a storage medium like a battery. It is no more "crackpot" than using Hydrogen for the same purpose. D: If you don't like the article then you are free to VfD it. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 17:43, August 16, 2005 (UTC)<br />
::A - Sorry, then, my mistake.<br />
::B - Noted. <br />
::C - The article says ''a future economy in which the primary form of energy storage and transport is liquid Nitrogen'' and refers to the oil crunch later. It is more ..let's say ''impractical'' than hydrogen becaue of the huge losses inherent in making liquid nitrogen.<br />
::D - Done! (again) Thanks for your interest. --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] 22:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==John W. Ratcliff==<br />
Thank you for your kind words in your reminder about the 3RR. I will not make any more reverts to that page for the next 24 hours. (Editing for accuracy and clarity is still okay, no?) Obviously, the page is being pulled in three directions. We would still like a ruling on Wikipedia's policies regarding the use of that profanity-laden quote on the controversy section, if you get the time. Personally, I think its inclusion makes the article less NPOV than its exclusion would. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 19:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[:Category:Puerto Rican people]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi, thanks for re-adding the cats, I had forgot about them. We were still trying to decide whether or not to keep it, so I added the desc text for now. Thanks again. <font color=#FF0033>[[Special:Contributions/Who|&infin;]]</font>[[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 20:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*Hi, I just saw your note on [[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]]'s page on [[Walter Mercado]]. Yea, I try to at least find cats for the orphaned ones, or add {{tl|CatNeeded}}, if I can think of one of the top of my head, then I will try to add it. I also fix errors as I go, so its a little better than a bot doing it, but there are always going to be some stragglers and mistakes, especially with the mass re-cats. I don't expect someone else to have to cleanup the mess, but I do realize other users monitor the articles, and feel confident that another cat will be added eventually. With some of these, I fealt that the list would suffice.I have added cats that article. Thanks for the comments, I try my best to categorize properly. <font color=#FF0033>[[Special:Contributions/Who|&infin;]]</font>[[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 09:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Question re: categories ==<br />
<br />
Hi there! Is it possible to somehow automatically include all items in, say, [[:Category:Streets in California]], [[:Category:Streets in Manhattan]], and so forth, as items in [[:Category:Streets]]? It seems like there's got to be an established procedure for this, but I'm at a loss. Thanks for any help.<br />
<br />
[[User:IP 66.173.44.202|IP 66.173.44.202]] 01:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Bioconservatism ==<br />
<br />
Please see my question at [[Talk:Bioconservatism#Conservatism?]]. Thanks -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:40, August 17, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Comment on my discussion page==<br />
<br />
I am unsure why you felt compelled to comment on my discussion page. I deleted [[user:JamesMLane]]'s "warning" because he is a POV warrior and his "warning" was just part of a concerted an effort to harrass anyone who tries to introduce NPOV on the pages of liberal politicians. In this case it was the [[Ted_Kennedy]] page. I deleted a "warning about bad behavior" because there has been no bad behavior, at least on my part. [[user:JamesMLane]] writes on his user page that he is "hostile to the right wing." I am hardly right wing, but I certainly have felt the brunt of his hostility. --[[User:Agiantman|Agiantman]] 02:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:You deleted several warnings or commetns on your editing behavior. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:23, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Matt Slick article ==<br />
<br />
There happens to be a small group of us all using COMCAST cable which is just about the entire EAST Coast that you plan to block. If you block all of COMCAST users you will block half the country using this ISP. :o) There are a group of us linked through comcast, now I do wonder how you plan to handle blocking the three different users with internet cable using COMCAST accounts? As for frauds, and liars that should not be editing on Wikipedia? We are documenting every bit of this article and the fact that the edit of this wikipedia article has been turned over to a group pushing their propaganda with their POV edits being permitted. I found other users, a Lillian, that also tried to edit... You have ignored the rules of Wikipedia Mr. Willmcw, it is documented time and again in the discussion and history that you handed this over to hyperbole who is known to participate in a CARM 'hate'site and is using this web article to defame Mr. Slick. Any idiot can see that your bias is hanging out and that the propaganda a.a.r.m. posters are using this article and they are using you..... I hope it is worth it to you.<br />
<br />
:What do you mean by "us"? You claim to be a group? Please get one username per person and stick with them. Group accounts are not allowed. If there is more than one person using these IPs then then each should get a username. The current editing scenario makes it appear as if these IPs are being used by one person and will be treated as such until other arrangements are made. If you are one person then you may not user multiple accounts, [[Wikipedia:sock puppet|sock puppets]], to make it appear as more users. Using schemes to avoid our rules shows bad faith and may be punished by long-term blocking. Please follow Wikipedia policies and there won't be any problems. Since you claim to be many people I don't know who I've said what to, and who has said what to me. But whoever there is on the other end please be aware that the complaining, bitching, whining, pleading for punishment of your opponents, and legal threats are not conducive to civil editing. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:ps: On review I see that you are a part of a different pool of IPs, from a different ISP, than the problem user. My apologies. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Will, if you'll please check out the [[Matt Slick]] article now, you'll see a ridiculous and transparent attempt to get past the 3RR. Between the constant legal threats, personal attacks, knee-jerk reverts, and deceptive tactics of "Tom S 48"-slash-"Interested Party," (none of which I have to repeat here) I simply don't think this person can be worked with to make a good, NPOV article. I am fairly confident the person is here for one single reason: to remove evidence of criticism of CARM and Matt Slick. I think we agree that this evidence shouldn't be removed, and all attempts to work toward a version of the criticism acceptable to all parties (I've edited the thing ad nauseam) have failed. I am of the opinion that "Tom S 48" will be content with nothing other than a POV article in favor of Matt Slick. Can anything be done? --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 02:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:First off, don't worry. This is a long term project. Every article doesn't have to be correct and complete 100% of the time. None of them are. We just try to keep things moving forward. Part of our "ratchet" mechanism is the history function. No matter how badly an article is messed-up, just wait until the dust settles and then bring back the best prior version, incorporating worthwhile changes. It's like playing a video game and returning to your saved game. Hang in there.<br />
:Secondly, I don't really care much one way or the other about these articles, and my main interest is wikipeace. Somehow that seems to have translated into being a sort of referee. That's the least fun position on the playing field, but may be necessary. <br />
:Third, bad editors are not welcome, and eventually leave. Regarding [[user:Tom S 48]], he seems to have violated the 3RR, and has been brushing against it for days. Once it became apparent that he'd already been warned and cited in the past, I applied a short block. I didn't check your edits as carefully - I hope you haven't done so either. Many of us fall into that bad habit (see below). It's never successful, and almost always it's better just to wait a day if a second revert is needed. (write note to self).<br />
:Last, don't worry. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:27, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
::Take a look over at the [[CARM]] and [[Matt Slick]] pages, and you'll see that [[user:Tom S 48]] has returned as "Peggy Sue" and "Interested Party" in order to evade your block and continue reverting. This is after I spent the better part of an hour working constructively with a German Wikipedia moderator on rewriting the criticism section on [[CARM]] to meet Wikipedia's standards. I'm sorry to bother you with this, Will, and I'm sorry you got pulled into the middle, but this seems like a pretty blatant move to undermine your attempts to keep the peace... I really will try not to stress out about this, but it really does bother me when people try to wage information warfare by censoring anything that isn't complimentary to their group. --[[User:Hyperbole|Hyperbole]] 23:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Trolling patronisation is unwanted by me and Rangerdude ==<br />
<br />
Keep it to yourself asshole! Quit stalking Rangerdude and allying yourself with troublemakers. [[User:Bigelow|Bigelow]] 08:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== A modest proposal ==<br />
<br />
I just came across the Wikistalking section on the village pump and from there to Rangerdudes talk-page. That's pretty horrible behaviour from his part! Have you considered starting an RfC? Ofcourse, I haven't seen both sides of this argument, but it seems to me he is way out of line. [[User:Gkhan|gkhan]] 09:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nice ==<br />
<br />
Thanks. ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 18:40, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Mark Weber of the IHR==<br />
<br />
Someone claiming to be Mark Weber of the [[Institute for Historical Review]] is complaining on the Talk: page there. Perhaps you would like to respond. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 20:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===RfAr===<br />
This is to notify you that a Request for Arbitration is being filed against yourself and SlimVirgin for harassment and wikistalking [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 23:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Question to Willmcw re: previous opposition to a Wikipedia guideline on stalking ==<br />
<br />
According to the following text by Willmcw posted on July 5th regarding the establishment of guideline provisions of the same purpose as this for wikistalking, he wrote:<br />
:A problem with this proposal is that it assumes bad faith on the part of the accused stalker. That seems entirely at odds with the overarching policy. It goes to the intent of the user, which is unknowable, rather than the value of the edits themselves. We already have a policy about personal attacks that covers incivility. If being simply being corrected is harassment then everybody on Wikipedia is continually harassed. If an editor is making substantive contributions in a civil manner it should not matter what articles are being edited. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] July 5, 2005 22:00 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AAssume_good_faith&diff=18218465&oldid=18217117] <br />
<br />
As these sentiments convey a position of opposition to the establishment of an anti-stalking guideline to reflect the Wales and Arbcom decisions, as is the purpose here, and as Willmcw is actively editing this guideline proposal and, of recent, denying his opposition to it, he is requested to clarify the above comments from last month, indicate if he still believes in them and if so in what way, and state whether he supports or opposes the guideline proposal that is the object of this discussion. Thank you. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 19:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:No, that text (why is it even here?) referred to your attempt to add wikistalking to an existing guideline, [[Wikipedia:assume good faith]]. Please stick to drafting and seeking approval for the current proposal, not a different proposal in a different place from a month ago. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Will - I'm asking you specific questions to clarify your position regarding this guideline proposal based on your previous expressed opposition to similar proposals. The statement from you that I quoted above expresses open hostility to the idea of having a wiki-stalking guideline provision. Since you have been engaged in heavy editing of this article after the proposal was anounced and since you opposed its provisions previously, it is in the interest of this discussion's participants to know whether you support or oppose the current item on the table. If you support it you should state so openly. If you oppose it then you should refrain from making major revisions to the proposal as they could be seen as attempts to weaken it, vandalize its text, and obstruct its consideration by the Wikipedia community. You're free to comment on this proposal, Will, and make good faith contributions to it but you are not free to disrupt or vandalize it with bad faith edits done for the purpose of disrupting its consideration. So I'll ask you once again, Will. '''(1) Do you support or oppose this proposal? (2) Do you or do you not still agree with the position you took on this subject in July as quoted above? (3) If you still agree please clarify in what way, and if you have changed your mind please indicate the reasons why.''' Thanks in advance for answering. [[User:Rangerdude|Rangerdude]] 22:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I would encourage Willmcw to continue to make reasonable edits and propose revisions to any new policy. He has generally shown a good grasp of how Wikipedia works (and should work), and I welcome his opinion and contributions. I say this even if he ''does'' oppose the policy&mdash;I don't pretend to read minds, and I don't want to. If he can temper or modify a new proposal to a form he believes will be more acceptable, that's probably a good thing.<br />
:::If Rangerdude is concerned that something important is being lost from the proposed policy, then he is free to separate out specific provisions to be considered independently. In many cases only parts of new proposed policy are eventually adopted; it's part of the consensus-building process here. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 12:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
====My ''wikistalking'' "crime"====<br />
From late July to early August I particpated in migrating the old cleanup archives to the [[:Category:Cleanup_by_month|new system]]. It entailed surveying thousands upon thousands of links of backlogged cleanup archives from July 2004 to July 2005 and deciding which needed to still be cleaned, etc. Days of work. I did probably 90% of the entire job myself; Beland did 1/2 of Sep 04 and some one else did the short months of Jan - March and the long one of June.<br />
<br />
A few days after I was finished, I decided to start cleaning articles. Howwever, it sort of blew the breathe out of me when I discovered that the Aug - October categories were vacant of articles. I soon discovered that a sockpuppet that had been vandalising [[Biff Rose]] repeatedly had summarily gone through the cleanup archives and frivously removing cleanup tags in virtually every article, vandalising every 10th article or so. So, I went down his contributions list one by one seeking to rectify the damage. Fortunately '''Willmcw''' had already taken care of about 75% of the articles; but had it not been for our combined '''wikistalking''' of this and other sockpuppets, the cleanup process would have been significantly hindered by vandals.<br />
<br />
I say this because time after time, at the very beginning of the conflict, before it had escalated, [some one who advocates a prohibition against wikistalking] had '''*obviously*''' wikistalked Willmcw and put on every sockpuppet talk page where Willmcw had excoricated him/them to obey wiki standards, [this person] the following rebuttal of willmcw...<br />
<br />
Exact quote:<br />
Greetings and welcome to wikipedia. Please excuse the rude treatment you've <br />
received from the administrator [Willmcw] ... You should not let a hostile <br />
reception deter you from participating here and I hope you will stay.<br />
<br />
Well, they did stay. In fact, they became emboldened. The operator of the sockpuppets '''*continuously*''' went to administrators complaining about how we were "harassing" them...different accounts would claim the same "advocate" and generally gave up all pretense of being unique users. During this time they started the vandalism of the cleanup pages.<br />
<br />
I do not contend that ''wikistalking'' is bad, and thus do not judge any one for having done so. All I'm saying is that having such a rule could '''*easily*''' backfire when vandals become emboldened as up above. ''Wikistalking'' seems to be the only way to track and correct some vandalisation and therefore if there would be such a thing as wikistalking it would have to be limited. Maybe to, say, following others around and hostily critiquing them with no evidence -- on other people's talk pages. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 14:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 400KB usertalk page ==<br />
<br />
Is quoting the KJV verbatim in the scope of 400 KB an abuse of wiki policies? Better run over to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Steve_espinola&oldid=21329823|Steve espinola's talk page]. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 14:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[User:Liftarn]] at [[List of political epithets]]==<br />
I have run into what I consider disruptive behaviour and [[WP:POINT]] at [[List of political epithets]]. In my view, [[User:Liftarn]] has been removing material and asking for citations for material which has already been cited, and has been insisting on citations exclusively for, and inserting NPOV notices in, Jewish-related epithets, when no citations have been provided for any of the other epithets on the page, and when he has raised no specific objections in Talk:. Could you possibly take a look? [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 15:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have actually not removed anything, it's just commented away awaiting citations (real ones, not invented). As Jayjg is pushing his POV in those areas it's ofcourse those areas that get attention for NPOVing. It should be noted that who first started requiering sources for everything was Jayjg. // [[User:Liftarn|Liftarn]]<br />
<br />
::I have to apologize to you both. Try though I might, I can't work up an interest in "Judeofascist, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi". I keep meaning to go take a look, but last time I went over there I got into topic instead. [[Talk:List of political epithets#Blue dog v Yellow dog]]. Sorry guys, you're on your own on this one. (However, without knowing all of the issues, my general perspective is that more sources are always better). Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 12:14, August 22, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Notice of reply to comment ==<br />
<br />
Notice of reply to your comment at another page- Please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scottperry#Barnstar_award More about sliced breaad...] Thanks: [[User:Scottperry|Scott P.]] 17:56:18, 2005-08-19 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whites ==<br />
<br />
Why did you revert my edits to [[Whites]]? The article as it stood was about an inch above utter nonsense, and is largely written from a racist POV. Did you actually read it before reaching for the rollback button? Are you aware of Wikipedia's policy on not describing people as "Whites" or "Blacks" but instead to use the colour words as adjectives? Do you think that lists of who's in and who's out have a place in Wikipedia? Are you not aware that in Arab countries, as an example, "whites" include people who would, without question, be considered "black" in other places? Do you know that in the current conflict in Sudan, as an example, the northern Arabs call themselves "whites" and the southern peoples "blacks", even though some of the Arabs are darker than some of the southerners? Do you know that in some places, notably in west Africa and India, people use skin lighteners to try to make themselves "white" (in other words, they see "whiteness" purely as a function of how pale your skin is, not anything to do with "Europeanness" -- in India they have been prizing "whiteness" since before they encountered Europeans). How is that conveyed by suggesting that "white" means that you come from Europe? This may be what it means where you come from but it doesn't mean it elsewhere. I rewrote the article to reflect that "white" is a purely relative construct and removed a lot of the ''completely unsourced'' nonsense that littered the article. An example of that is the suggestion that "White" implies "Anglo-Saxon" (which, I agree, in America it mostly does), which has nothing to do with "Anglo" (linked to Angeln!) and "Saxon" (linked to "Saxony"!). Well, "Anglo-Saxon" in this context means "deriving from England" and is used to describe the Anglophone, white colonial nations. There are people editing this article, Will, simply to insert '''their''' nationality into the list of "Whites". Are you supporting that? By reverting edits that tried to tone that down -- without any explanation -- you certainly seem to be. [[User:Clair de Lune|Clair de Lune]] 23:58, 19 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Check this out: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tired_of_the_hate/tired_of_the_hate]<br />
<br />
This is [[User:Antonucc]], whose work you reverted to, Will. I'm astonished that you did that. [[User:Clair de Lune|Clair de Lune]] 00:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I misread part of your edit to [[Whites]], which made it appear like vandalism.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whites&diff=prev&oldid=21352272] On more careful reflection I see that it was not. I apologize for reverting your edit so hastily. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:25, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Good luck ==<br />
<br />
Sorry I wasn't of more help, and good luck in arbitration to you both. [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 02:05, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Alex Linder ==<br />
<br />
This article looks good to me. In my opinion, I see know gossip, then again that's just my thought. Anyway, looks like Alex Linder himself has been working here at Wikipedia as evidenced in this [http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=Wikipedia thread] I found at [[VNN]]. What do you think of that? Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 03:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for double checking. It;'d be typical if Linder is involved. These folks are only interested in editing articles about themselves, their friedns, and their enemies. It's hard to tell if the letter is from Linder himself, as he may just be reprinting this[http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&highlight=wikipedia]. Either way, [[user:Amalekite]] may be worth watching. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 04:07, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Reverting ==<br />
<br />
Thought you might be interested to know that Rangerdude is belatedly pointing out a potential violation of the three-revert rule on your part. See [[User talk:Rangerdude]]. --[[User:Michael Snow|Michael Snow]] 06:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Upon review of my edits I see that Rangerdude may well be correct. I'll report it over on 3RR. Thanks for mentioning it. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:46, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Now that I've looked more closely, I don't see it after all. <br />
:* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21238921&oldid=21231294 20:24, August 17, 2005] <br />
:* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21274020&oldid=21273741 07:18, August 18, 2005] <br />
:* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21274773&oldid=21274286 07:38, August 18, 2005]<br />
:* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AStalking&diff=21275068&oldid=21274991 07:46, August 18, 2005]<br />
:The first edit is labelled as a revert to another editor's version, and the other three are to conventional reverts. Of course, even two reverts is more than ideal. In any case I'll refrain from editing any of the articles that Rangerdude edits until the block clears - we both need a break from it. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:03, August 20, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Please check CARM pages history...slandering in history ==<br />
<br />
To Willwmc and Irmgard: List here a link to your talk. Hyperbole is lying in the history of CARM. Tom, Peggy, Interested Party, will give you our phone numbers to discuss the edits, and we told you they were slandererss on the aarm board and is why we were originally using only Interested Parties to sign. Now we ask that you remove the false accusations from the history edits of hyperbole, as we will give you our phone numbers and IP numbers and ask to speak with you on the phone in order to PROVE he is lying and that the three of us do live in New Jersey. Which is why we are editing with IP's and not signing on, he accuses all three of us constantly. Peggy00:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matt_Slick"<br />
Here is my email [email protected]. If you emai, I will give you the three telephone numbers to Tom, Peggy/Diane, Interested Party. I want no further accusations from hyperbole, enough is enough.00:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:''moved from [[User talk:Willmcw/archive4]]'' -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:39, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:As I said to you on one of your talk pages, here, [[User talk:68.44.255.244]]:<br />
:I'm not interested in playing games, talking on the telephone, or proving that anyone is lying. I am interested in achieving NPOV, comprehenisve, concise articles that summarize verifiable sources. I am interested in seeing editors working together collegially and with consensus. -Willmcw 00:20, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I'll add that if there is a specific factual mistake in the article then please describe it on the article talk page, with a source for the correction. Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:42, August 23, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[Terrorism]]==<br />
Have you seen the nonsense going on a [[Terrorism]]? [[User:Zephram Stark]] and an IP sockpuppet parade have reverted the article over a dozen times now! [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 17:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Whoa==<br />
<br />
I see you everywhere I go here, and therefore, I give you this '''Barnstar of Diligence''' [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 23:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Image:Barnstar3.png]]<br />
<br />
Take care, [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 23:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Pejorative terrorism ==<br />
<br />
"It's not easy finding a two word phrase that generates zero Google hits, but that's one." LOL!! My mind instantly flew to theorist of conspiracies, but no, it's out there, independently of WP. Foucault was one, it seems. Figures. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 05:42, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:"Theorist of conspiracies" has a fine and noble history. "Pejorative terrorism", on the other hand, leaves me scratching my head even after having read the definition. At least Wikipedia continues to amuse and amaze. ;) Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:46, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::As [[User:Commodore Sloat|Commodore Sloat]] wrote: "Gee, looks like there was a pejorative-terrorist attack in Jordan today." ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 05:51, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==[[Bob Jones University]]==<br />
Why did you remove the link to the accrediting agency on [[Bob Jones University]]? I just corrected that link today. There was already a link to it but it was linked to an invalid Wikipedia article so I linked it to the appropriate external site. I'm not sure why you'd find it neccessary to remove a valid external link. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 06:18, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Why do we need a link to the homepage of an accrediting agency of a college in the first place? If we linked to the webpage that mentions BJU then it could serve as a source, but just the homepage doesn't do much of anything for anyone. A red link is not an invalid link, it is a link to an article that needs to be created. Do you think we need an article about a small accrediting body? Why is that link important, but the famous rules are deleted? -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:29, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Like I said in the article talk page, I'm not opposed to mentioning the rules in an NPOV way and stating that they are criticised by most people who don't go to the school, but are respected by most who go to the school. We could then link to the schools list of rules. The link to the accrediting agency that was in the page before you reverted the article was to an external site. Once you reverted, it linked to a non-existent article. I've since corrected the link again. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 06:49, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== User RobinEvans trolling ==<br />
<br />
How come you are allowing [[User:RobinEvans]] to use WP talk pages to promote his anti-cult Yahoo group? You know that it is against WP policy. Would you do the same if a Sai Baba follower used the talk pages to promote Sai Baba? --[[User:Zappaz|ZappaZ]] [[Image:Yin_yang.png|12px]] 15:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'd probably remove the link if it had ben aded to those articles. But those were polite requests on talk pages. Removing all of those is more like censorship. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 19:26, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi Will, they were not "polite requests". The user spammed 13 different talk pages with links to this group. And if you visited the group's page, you'd see that it's virtually empty: 7 messages total. I know that removing comments is a touchy subject but this is spam. Some of the talk pages were completely irrelevant: [[Talk:Cult film]], for example, has nothing to do with actual cults. I would have no problem with a short note on a single talk page, but spamming 13 talk pages with a four paragraph ad crosses the line. I'm removing the spam again. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 20:58, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::On reflection I think that you are correct. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 22:21, August 24, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Forrest==<br />
Hi -- The Klan stuff in the Forrest article looks factually correct to me, although it is brief. No problem if you want to copy over some info. You'll find a lot of incorrect statements on the web that he founded the Klan.--[[User:Bcrowell|Bcrowell]] 23:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Archival Methods ==<br />
<br />
Please leave personal discussions outside of article talk pages. As far as addressing your issue with my method of archiving, please refer to [[Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page]] for more information on archival. It is altogether appropriate that sections be archived as I have done. Furthermore, keep in mind that [[Wikipedia:Stalking]] is being considered as a new policy and is considered inappropriate. - [[User:Sleepnomore|Sleepnomore]] 02:07, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I initially left a message on your talkpage, but you immediately wiped it away. Then I left one on the talk page of concern, and you ignored it. Where can I leave messages for you that you will see them and respond? Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:17, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Socks ==<br />
<br />
You have some damn amazing socks I must say. [[User:Redwolf24|Redwolf24]] 02:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'm very proud of them. However, I, in turn, am a sock puppet as well.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Willmcw&diff=19626065&oldid=19505081] There are only five actual editors on Wikipedia. The rest are all sock puppets. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 03:32, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Minor Barnstar of Diligence ==<br />
<br />
Lol, I mark nearly every edit a minor edit! :) The only time I don't is when I create an article, etc. Thanks for the kind words, [[Image:WikiThanks.png]] , take care, <p style="font-family: Comic sans, Comic Sans MS, monospace;"><font size=2 color=turqoise> [[User:Dbraceyrules|D. J. Bracey]] [[User_talk:Dbraceyrules|(talk)]] [[Image:California state flag.png|25px]] 15:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Eli Siegel was an anti-racist in 1923 -- some background ==<br />
<br />
Dear Wllmcw,<br />
<br />
Just to be absolutely clear, in case there is any doubt, I give more reasons to see that Eli Siegel's magazine essay "The Equality of Man" is an anti-racist work. The modern reader wouldn't be expected to know the background that was vivid in the the 1923 reader's mind--the reader for whom Mr. Siegel was writing.<br />
<br />
First, of course, he did not use the term racism in this essay because it didn't exist. "The term 'racism', according to the Oxford English Dictionary, emerged in the early 1930s as distinct from the 'theories of race' which had existed for at least a hundred years before that." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism] <br />
<br />
I do not believe it was necessary to use the term "race" in the essay either--a word much misused and which is almost impossible to define, even today. His readers knew what he meant. <br />
<br />
It is clear that Mr. Siegel was criticizing the racial theory of hereditary intelligence. He names five particular writers--the big names of the day--whose point of view the essay is a refutation of--a refutation solely by means of clear logic, blasting apart their fake arguments: <br />
<br />
:[Siegel wrote:] "The world has always been carried on as if men were unequal....the '''Galtons, Nietzsches, McDougalls, Termans, and Menckens''' are the present enunciators of the theory...that to some men nature has seen fit to give so much more intelligence than to others, that these first are fit by birth to rule the second....This writing will aim to show that Men Are Equal--in the clear and full meaning of the words." [''The Modern Quarterly'' vol 1, no. 3, December 1923]<br />
<br />
People reading "The Equality of Man" in 1923 would know that Galton, Nietzsche, McDougall, Terman, and Mencken (and their followers) promulgated the racial theory of inferiority. Even Siegel's title "The Equality of Man" contrasts dramatically with Galton's most popular title, "Hereditary Genius." Let's look at these five men one by one:<br />
<br />
'''1. Galton.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that Galton (Sir Francis Galton) was for racial INFERIORITY:<br />
<br />
:"One of the historical peaks of scientific racism was the establishment of eugenics. Francis Galton, who happened to be cousin to Darwin, is conventionally held responsible for the beginning of this scientific study of breeding and its improvement. In the chapter of his book Hereditary Genius - published in 1869 - entitled "The Comparative Worth of Different Races," Galton uses a sort of grading scale to point out [the place of] each race in the classification system he used....<br />
<br />
:"The works of these authors [Petty, Darwin, Galton] have been used to justify many atrocities, including slavery, colonization, and racial genocide during the period of the authors' lives to more recent violations of human rights and attempts to keep races 'pure' - i.e. Adolf Hitler's notion of the Final Solution and the master Aryan race." (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f00/web1/hossain.html)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''2. Terman.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know Lewis M. Terman, psychology professor at Stanford University, was for racial INFERIORITY.<br />
<br />
For example: <br />
<br />
:"Chorover credited Terman with 'injecting race into the IQ debate.' Terman claimed that mental deficiency is very common in Spanish-Indian and Mexican families...and also among Negros. He also warned that "if we would preserve our state for a class of people worthy to possess it, we must prevent, as far as possible, the propagation of mental degenerates." (Lenny Lapon, URL: http://www.truthseekers.freeserve.co.uk/truth/tr8murderers.html)<br />
<br />
:"The beginning of the IQ-testing movement overlapped with the eugenics movement — hugely popular in America and Europe among the "better sort" before Hitler gave it a bad name — which held that intelligence was mostly inherited and that people deficient in it should be discouraged from reproducing." (http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/other/iq.html) <br />
<br />
'''3. McDougall.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that William McDougall of Harvard University was a racist.<br />
<br />
McDougall was given the William James Chair of Psychology at Harvard University. However, <br />
:'''"McDougall was not well-received at Harvard, due to the racist nature of his views on eugenics and his opposition to behaviorism."''' (''Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology.'' URL: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2699/is_0005/ai_2699000543)<br />
<br />
'''4. Nietzsche.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that Friedrich Nietzsche was was for racial INFERIORITY. <br />
<br />
Nietzsche wrote, for example,<br />
<br />
:1. "The negro represents an earlier phase of human development." [pp. 199-200](http://www.friesian.com/nietzsch.htm)<br />
<br />
:And 2. "...Let us face facts: the people have triumphed -- or the slaves, the mob, the herd, whatever you wish to call them -- and if the Jews brought it about, then no nation ever had a more universal mission on earth. The lords are a thing of the past, and the ethics of the common man is completely triumphant. I don't deny that this triumph might be looked upon as a kind of blood poisoning, since it has resulted in a mingling of the races, but there can be no doubt that the intoxication has succeeded. The 'redemption' of the human race (from the lords, that is) is well under way; everything is rapidly becoming Judaized, or Christianized, or mob-ized -- the word makes no difference...." [p.169-170]<br />
<br />
:[''The Birth of Tragedy and The Genealogy of Morals'', translated by Francis Golffing, Doubleday Anchor Books, 1956.] <br />
<br />
'''5. Mencken.''' The readers of Siegel's article would know that H.L. Mencken was for racial INFERIORITY.<br />
<br />
:"Mencken considered everyone inferior to his 'superior men.' But, he believed Jews and blacks to be most inferior of all." [''Commentary: Mencken and the inferior man''<br />
Posted by Mac Diva on April 03, 2004 11:49 AM (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/04/03/114957.php)]<br />
<br />
And this is some of what Mac Diva quotes Mencken as writing--and this is what readers of Eli Siegel's refutation, "The Equality of Man," would have had in their minds in 1923:<br />
<br />
:The negro, no matter how much he is educated, must remain, as a race, in a condition of subservience; that he must remain the inferior of the stronger and more intelligent white man so long as he retains racial differentiation. Therefore, the effort to educate him has awakened in his mind ambitions and aspirations which, in the very nature of things, must go unrealized, and so, while gaining nothing whatever materially, he has lost all his old contentment, peace of mind and happiness.<br />
<br />
And Mencken also wrote this: <br />
<br />
:The fact remains that the Southern whites have to deal with the actual Negroes before them, and not with a theoretical race of African kings. These actual Negroes show actual defects that are very real and very serious. The leaders of the race, engrossed by the almost unbearable injustices that it faces, are apt to forget them. <br />
<br />
:[''Men versus the Man: A Correspondence between Robert Rives La Monte, Socialist, and H.L. Mencken, Individualist'' [1910] (http://www.io.com/gibbonsb/mencken/megaquotes.html)]<br />
<br />
Eli Siegel was against this horrible, ugly way of thinking, writing, talking, feeling, and even legislating from the very beginning. The U.S. eugenists, including these 5, were used by Hitler as models for his goal. It was racism. Siegel hated it. --[[User:66.114.86.135|66.114.86.135]] 18:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for providing this info. I'm quite familiar with the Eugenics movement. I wish that Siegel's essay itself was accessible. Meanwhile, I'll study what you have provided. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:36, August 25, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Epigraphs==<br />
I answered your query at my Talkpage --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 00:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC).<br />
<br />
== Placing users in danger ==<br />
<br />
FYI [[Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy#Placing_users_in_danger]] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 02:27, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
:Will, I saw you'd asked a couple of people about Linder. He says here [http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=22047&highlight=wikipedia] that he's Amalekite, and also on the Stormfront page here [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&highlight=wikipedia]. It's at the end of the first post in both cases, I think, and on Stormfront, he also later talks about having been blocked. Someone then posted anonymously on Homeontherange's talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHomeontherange&diff=21496598&oldid=21455599] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHomeontherange&diff=21545905&oldid=21542181] indicating that he knew what we were discussing, signed it Amalekite, and didn't say he wasn't Linder. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 08:38, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Protoscience ==<br />
<br />
There is a [[:Category:Protoscience]] - you might also want to look at [[Aetherometry]] to see how usage can be controvertial. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 05:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Ugh - I've resisted looking in on [[Aetherometry]] becaused I sensed it might be a time trap, but I'll take a narrow look on your recommendation. I see that both [[string theory]] and [[Wilhelm Reich]] are in [[:Category:Protoscience]]. The better category for Reich would be "protoscientists". ;) -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 06:09, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Look at aetherometry merely as an example of what can go wrong when people disagree as to whether something is protoscience or pseudoscience. Beyond that, if you value your sanity, ''keep away''. :) [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 06:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Alex Linder]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will. Did you know that the article about [[Alex Linder]] is up for VfD? I would like you to take a look at this. Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 08:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I'd just noticed and am still trying to figure out what this all about. There is a rumour going around that Linder is/was [[user:Amalekite]], who caused a ruckus. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:18, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::He says so on one of his Stormfront sites, I don't know which one off the top of my head. [[User:Zoe|Zoe]] 18:59, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Research... ==<br />
<br />
...all done! But I also added [[volcano]]. I've also sufficiently scared my mom by explaining how I'll be renting a 4WD and driving up an unpaved track up the mountain to [[Monteverde]]. I figure that about covers me for trip prep. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 15:16, August 26, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Sir...(sorry that I don't know how to sign on properly). I had written a note to you (but evidently rather stupidly put it on your July archive page...D'oh!) about some vandalization of an entry on me. It had been brought to my attention by a student. I just noticed that you replaced a link to a "critique" of my views on Iraq. I have no problem with people knowing that other people disagree with me, but the link was not to a critique of "my views" on Iraq, but to something quite different. If you follow the links you will find that Mr. Raimondo did not link to anything I wrote, but only to another thing that he wrote, which took a statement I wrote completely out of context. Here is the evidence: http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/018290.php . So by all means include links to criticisms, but they should not be based on maliciously dishonest distortions of someone's views. My views are frequently controversial enough that they should not need distortion to generate honest criticism.<br />
<br />
==Rudolf Steiner==<br />
Since you are implicated with this sort of stuff, please pay attention to that entry, it is far from being neutral. All the controversy of racistic reincarnation from the "Inferior" Black to "Superior" "Aryan" in his philosophy, and those of the school teaching racism are missing there. It seems that the major contributors are either from his schools or burocrats working there. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 03:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Erik Sigerud ==<br />
<br />
That's understandable - it's not the [[Erik Sigerud]] page which is up for deletion but the [[Erik sigerud]] one... ([[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Erik sigerud|Here's the VfD.]]) The user has simply created a duplicate. If you have a better knowledge than I have of the art world, your input into the VfD debate would be greatly appreciated. / [[User:Alarm|Alarm]] 11:31, 28 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Concerning the use of the words "fair comment" in a court decision ==<br />
<br />
Hi!<br />
<br />
I noticed that you have edited my article "fair comment". Thank you for your good work. Since you seem to be familliar with the matter can you give a 3rd opionion on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#concerning_the_legal_Term_.22fair_comment.22 this:] <br />
<br />
Do you think that the ruling of the court in this sentence was refering to the laymans understanding of [[fair comment]] or to the legal definition?<br />
<br />
<br />
...and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".<br />
<br />
Because slimvirgin belives the following:<br />
<br />
"I'd say fair comment means a matter of opinion, both in law and in layman's terms. The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."<br />
<br />
Now who is right? Would the N.Y. Supreme Court really use these words in the way slimvirgin understands them or would they mean the legal term "fair comment"?<br />
<br />
What is your opinion? <br />
<br />
Thank you for your help in this matter and if you can not help me can you suggest somebody who can help me? <br />
I have already asked Coolceasar but he could only clarify that the N.Y. Supreame Court is not the highest court.<br />
<br />
But following the last exchanges with cberlet there seems to be some movement... Anyway a 3rd opinion would be most welcome...<br />
<br />
<br />
--[[User:Zirkon|Zirkon]] 17:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Kind & Supportive==<br />
<br />
Hi Will. Just wanted to return your note, and thank you for your kind and supportive attitude. Cheers!<br />
--[[User:Lockley|Lockley]] 19:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw; thanks for the note. You've left me slightly confused (although this is probably because I'm so new to processing copyvios). I removed the copyvio notice from [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] because as far as I can see we have a legitimate claim for fair use. I haven't deleted the image as your message on my talk suggested. It probably ''should'' go to IfD, since it's an orphan, but I've not taken any action to delete it. Can you clarify your question? Cheers. --[[User:Ngb|Ngb]]<sup> [[User_talk:Ngb|?!?]]</sup> 21:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hehe. I can see how you would have thought that. :) Not to worry. Is it worth using the image in the [[Nationalist Movement]] article? If not, I will list it for deletion. --[[User:Ngb|Ngb]]<sup> [[User_talk:Ngb|?!?]]</sup> 21:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::There's also a [[Crosstar]] article. Both have had their images removed as a result of the dispute. The [[Arrowstar]] is virtually identical, and has been used as a replacement. [[User:Kaldari]] has been involved with these files too. Personally, I'd like to merge [[Crosstar]] and the [[Nationalist Movement]]. Either way, it's helpful to have an illustraiton of a logo. However, there are at least three crosstar images, and we certainly only need one. The [[:Image:Crosstar color.gif]] is probably the best, and the other two are lesser versions. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:23, August 29, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I would suggest adding the Crosstar_color.gif image to the relavent articles as that one seems to be the most accurate. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 13:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Ratcliff et al==<br />
Hi Will: Thanks for your message. I agree with you assessment of the background. We will only achieve consensus when the various editors accept wikipedia values or move on. In this case we all need to accept that encyclopedia articles are not platforms for attacks on, or promotions of, their subjects. We also need to be able to differentiate acts from opinions and recognize that the reporting of an opinion is not an endorsement of it. This could involve some repeated explanations. &mdash;[[User:TheoClarke|Theo ]] [[User_talk:TheoClarke|(Talk)]] 00:33, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==About Don Black article==<br />
Sorry about that, I wasn't sure how to source the stuff myself, seeing as I didn't have a copy of the book available to me, thanks for fixing that up, [[User:Derktar|Derktar]] 01:49, August 30, 2005 (UTC).<br />
<br />
**About the CARM and Matt Slick articles. Will you please research the topic, you continue to misrepresent CARM for months. CARM is not about discussion boards and has 26,000 members, plus 6000 to the boards and you do need to get the facts here, if you are going to participate in the article. www.carm.org Check it out, thousands of articles, Matt is a published author. Posted in the discussion. Are you ever going to really check into CARM as one of the TOP apologetic websites, we are not discussion boards, that is aarm, not CARM. <br />
<br />
'''To Willmcw: ONE MORE TIME Will, I have told you this many times and you either don't read or refuse to listen to me.''' CARM is not about discussion boards. CARM is an Apologetics ministry, with a Theology and Apologetics School, and articles on Christianity, with the boards a very small part of the ministry. Matt Slick is a published author and speaker, he has written thousands of articles for CARM. He is a Calvinist but doesn't write about Calvinism on CARM. CARM has over 26,000 members receiving news letters not 6000, but FIVE TIMES THAT, and 25,000 hits to the Home Page articles weekly. CARM is not a group with 6000 members, you keep referring to CARM as to the discussion boards which are the least popular of all of the ministry, it is not a blog, is not just discussion boards that are just part, a very small part of the ministry. The CARM discussion boards don't even deserve mentioning other than a sentence as to their importance to the article about CARM Apologetics Ministry and its features. Again, CARM is not, simply a discussion board, that is what aarm is about, not CARM. The most visited parts to CARM have NOTHING to do with the discussion boards. This article, and the Matt Slick article focus on the boards and should not, the ministry is an Apologetic Ministry, one of the top on the internet. We receive letters from Universities and Churches that the articles are used by students and pastors for teaching purposes. The aarm boards and J. Ratcliff are known to no one but a handful of people, that are just a discussion website and CARM is not. First of all, aarm just started less than a year ago, is not a website is simply a chatroom set up to mock the CARM ministry. The aarm boards have less than 200 people registered with about 20, if that regular members. AARM doesn't deserve mentioning anywhere, but the two people here focused on the CARM boards have left a WRONG impression, CARM is not a discussion board, why you keep saying that is bizarre. Have you even looked to see what it is. The boards, linked at the bottom of the website as a service, but again, CARM is not a discussion board, AARM is a discussion board just created. CARM is a Theology school, an apologetic Ministry. Posting this two places so that MAYBE you will see it. You don't even know what CARM is after all this time, it is NOT A DISCUSSION BOARD, why are you listening to these people from aarm, they are focused on their aarm boards trying to make CARM look like it is about the discussion boards, and the boards don't matter at all to the article on CARM. Sigh!Peggy Sue 16:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Bagoas==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw,<br />
<br />
Looking at [[Bagoas]] there were several date references using BC notation and one at the start of the article using BCE. This usage was added in a recent edit. Clearly only one format should be used in an article. BC was the majority usage in this article, and reflected the intention of earlier editor(s). Therefore I replaced the one exception. I have to admit that I prefer BC/AD but leaving my personal preferences aside it still made sense to go for BC in this article. Regards, [[User:Arcturus|Arcturus]] 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Frankfurt School permission==<br />
When you get a chance, would you please look at what I did on the [[Frankfurt School]] page, under References, and see if it seems OK to you? [[User:Jjshapiro|Jeremy J. Shapiro]] 21:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wikipedians with articles==<br />
Hello there. Let's, at the outset, acknowledge each other as relatively dedicated and good faith editors, shake hands, and now thrash out this disagreement with all due efficiency. I've made a suggestion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedians_with_articles#Purpose and will not remove any further names until we sort this out.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 09:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:As they say in my hometown, "Awesome, let's thrash." -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 09:47, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::OK, I've edited the header text to accurately introduce the list. Please add the other purposes for the list to it and ''soften'' if you really must ;o) --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 10:59, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Hi there. Well, I'm content with the page now. Good working with you. (doffs cap and goes back to attending to articles about comedy...) --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod]] 20:24, September 3, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Thanks for your involvement. Many hands make light work. Cheers, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:28, September 4, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for your support ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will, just a quick note to thank you for your support on my RfA. I was pleased to see so much support, especially from people such as you who I do not know very well, if at all. Now that I am an administrator I will do my best to please the community’s expectations. Best regards, [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Bureaucratship ==<br />
<br />
Hi, Willmcw. Thank you so much for your support and kind words on my bureaucratship nomination. Unfortunately, it didn't pass, but I intend to run again soon. If you'd like to be informed next time around, please let me know on my talk page. Thanks again! [[User:Andrevan|<b><font color="mediumblue">Andre</font></b>]] ([[User_talk:Andrevan|<font color=royalblue>talk</font>]]) 05:16, September 4, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zephram Stark ==<br />
I have filed [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zephram Stark]]. Please contribute to it. &ndash; [[User:Smyth|Smyth]]\<sup><font color="gray">[[User_talk:Smyth|talk]]</font></sup> 18:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sun Yat-sen==<br />
Thanks for clearing that up. A bit of a bummer that that piece of text had gone undetected for a year; most of the wikipedia mirrors have that piece of propaganda now. [[User:Borisblue|Borisblue]] 02:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Santa Catalina Island, California ==<br />
<br />
I deleted your sarcasm at [[Talk:Santa Catalina Island, California]]. If you had taken time to actually read the Catalina article, you would have seen that section was very unclear on the status of the Bison and needed clarification. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 14:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've ocassionally gone over the boundaries of civility, but I try to save my cynicism for regular editors instead of relative newbies (see [[User_talk:Arrigo#Royal_pain-in-the-asses|here]] for me at my most cynical and sarcastic). Most of the times, however, I behave myself.<br />
<br />
:Recently I have gotten very discouraged about the level of discourse on the Wikipedia, and with seeing very good editors leave and new editors get bitten (see the comments on my user page for further amplification). Because of that, I've started occasionally playing Miss Manners in the little corners of the Wikipedia where I do most of my editing. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 15:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 24.141.149.226 ==<br />
<br />
Congrats go out to Wilmcw, for reverting a large number of correct edits without any real purpose or motivation.<br />
<br />
JEZZZ Willmcw, besides the "Jewish Americans" ones, what exactly was the point of taking out "Polish" from Chloe Sevigny? Her mother is Polish ("my mother's family is Polish" - http://www.latinoreview.com/films_2005/foxsearchlight/melinda/chloe-interview.html) and her French ancestry is minimal at best. You just assumed I was wrong and took it out on principal. Well, I am never wrong about the family background of famous people. Ever. Get it?<br />
<br />
Don't ever revert any of my edits unless you can provide explicit and reliable proof that I am incorrect - and that is something which will be near impossible for you to do, obviously. I hate it when people don't check their facts.<br />
{{Unsigned|24.141.149.226|06:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
:If you used the [[wikipedia:edit summaries]] and supplied sources, then your edits might be easier to decipher. Some of your edits seem based on the concept that people cannot be Jewish and Latvian at the same time. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:49, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, since I edit so many articles, both large and small size, it would take a tremendous amount of time to re-research all of the articles containing "sources" or "proof" and post it in the history of every article, especially many of the articles are almost never edited by anyone else, and most edits I see by other people don't contain sources. If you have a question about a specific edit (or a few) tell me (especially now that I have an account) and I will give you a source. They're not that hard to find.<br />
<br />
Now, narrowing this down to the "Jewish Americans" thing. Well, all the "??-American" categories refer to, in my understanding, the cultural/ethnic heritage of whoever. (I am not getting into an argument over whether "Jewish" is an ethnicity or not with you, in case you say it isn't - I will state that it absolutely is and that the Wiki article for [[Jew]] mentions the term [[ethnicity]] in the first sentence).<br />
<br />
Anyway, all of the people to which I added "Jewish American" are Jewish by ethnicity, the large majority are also Jewish by religion, and all of them are culturally Jewish. Most are the children of early 20th century/late 19th century immigrants to the States (I notice most famous 3rd or 4th generation Jewish Americans simply refer to their background as "Jewish", and don't even specify "German Jewish", etc.). Historically speaking, most Eastern European Jewish immigrants from that early time period lived in isolated all-Jewish villages, had little to no contact with outside culture, and a large majority didn't even speak the mother tongue of whichever country (i.e. Latvia) they were born into - I sincerely doubt the majority of these people would consider themselves to be "Latvian Americans" - they are Latvian only by nationality, really. "Latvian" is usually not their cultural and definitely not their ethnic background. I guess it's OK to list people as "Latvian Americans" if they were born in Latvia, but when it comes to 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants - they would have lost any trace of Latvian culture that their ancestors may have had, and would pretty much be "Jewish" in most senses of the word.<br />
<br />
To use some of the examples that I did on the Scarlett Johansson board - you could list half of the Jewish population of the States as "Russian Americans" because some of their ancestors may have been from Russia - but obviously any connection to anything Russian is minimal - and they aren't Russian ethnically, either. And again I use the example of ethnically English people born in India, Ireland, wherever - they would be "English Americans" - it'd be pretty silly to list them as "Indian Americans".<br />
<br />
I think it's best to keep the categories as tight as possible - notice how confusing it got with Johansson's various categories (and hers is one of the simpler backgrounds). It is much more authentic to list, under say Russian Americans, people who are ethnically and culturally Russian (or part Russian) - i.e. Natalie Wood, Michelle Trachtenberg who I recently added to that category (she has a Russian Jewish father and a Russian-Russian mother). Or at least people of whichever ethnicity who were born in Russia and have lived there for several generations.<br />
[[User:vulturell|V]] 5 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for correcting falacious and slanderous vandalism to my talk page and elsewhere. I honestly do not know what to do about [[User:Steve espinola|Steve espinola]] :-/ All I did was revert several hundred of his vandalisms to the cleanup process about a month ago and now he's just outright attacking me. Is there a way to limit him — only — from editing my page or is this not possible in the site's current implementation? I was just ignoring him but what's next? — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 16:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
:I blocked the latest two abusive sock puppet accounts. However the person behind the effort is not banned. I am not aware of any way to keep him from editing a certain page. The best solution may be to revert any mischief. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia, I'm sorry about the behavior of others. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 16:53, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Spamming talk pages? ==<br />
<br />
I don't know what the protocol is regarding deletion of inappropriate information from article talk pages, but I want to point out that barbara Schwarz has posted a defamatory press release to [[Talk:David S. Touretzky]]. The press release is bogus; it's signed by a non-existent group with no email address, and a physical mail address (found in another copy of the press release) that turns out to be a Hilton hotel. Just the latest in Scientology's ongoing smear tactics. But the entire press release doesn't seem appropriate to the article talk page. -- [[User:Touretzky|Touretzky]] 17:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:No, it is not appropriate. Since there is a functional link, there's no need to copy it on the talk page. Thanks for pointing that out. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 17:47, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== los angeles ==<br />
<br />
why did you delete my entry ''Originally named "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula",'' as a native angeleno i feel everyone should know the origins of the city name.<br />
<br />
:I deleted it because that information is already in the article, and does not belong as the first line of the article. Nobody has called it that in 200 years, so it is trivia. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:09, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:PS, compare with [[New York City]], where the reference to its original name is handled in the history seciton. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:10, September 6, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thank you for the barnstar, minor though it is. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 11:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thank you. :) ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for your welcome and for the helpful links. :) [[User:Grandiloquos|Grandiloquos]] 16:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
My apologies. This was a double post. I received an error message after posting the first "thank you" and didn't think it went through. [[User:Grandiloquos|Grandiloquos]] 16:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for the barnstar! ==<br />
<br />
We are getting these controversial topics filled out pretty nicely lately! I am heartened to see so many differing viewpoints working together as well. [[User:Jokestress|Jokestress]] 18:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Just a thought. ==<br />
<br />
Will, I was wondering. Since we're having this edit war with some anonymous user regarding "The Nordish Portal" and "Skadi," do you think it's a good idea if we temporararily locked up the [[White supremacy]] article? Again that's just a thought. Regards, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 21:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've thought about the same thing. This anon doesn't show signs of giving up, but perhaps a few days of not editing the article would make him lose interest. If you want, why don't you add an entry to [[wikipedia:requests for page protection]]. I wouldn't be able to protect it since I'm an involved admin. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 02:14, September 8, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Just added an entry, like you advised me to. Here it is; <br />
[[Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Request_to_protect_White_supremacy]]. Let's see what happens next. Thanks, --[[User:Gramaic|Gramaic]] | [[User talk:Gramaic|Talk]] 06:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Espinola ==<br />
<br />
If you don't mind, I'll post all replies on HopeSeekr's Talk. Cheers, --[[User:Sn0wflake|Sn0wflake]] 03:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks ==<br />
<br />
Thanks for the support on my RfA. I was very pleasantly surprised to see so much support throughout the week. Please do keep an eye on me and my logs, especially while I'm learning the ropes with the new buttons. Thanks again! -[[User:Splash|Splash]] 23:59, 9 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Biff Rose]] ==<br />
<br />
Hello, Willmcw! Recently, [[User:Jonah Ayers|Jonah Ayers]] left me a message seeking my opinion on the [[Biff Rose]] page. Here's my thoughts on the article:<br />
<br />
First, Jonah claims that you revert him on sight. If so, please stop doing that. While you may not agree with his edits, the point of a temp page is so that you all can discuss the changes on the talk page. The very point of a temp page is to have meaningful discussion and avoid edit conflicts and edit wars. While I can see both sides would want to remove or add material, I strongly recommend all the involved parties not remove any content, and instead discuss any major additions or deletions of text in the talk page first.<br />
<br />
In addition, I reiterate my encouragement to all of you to discuss things before adding or removing any text (or quotes). Also, it might be good to [[WP:CITE|cite your sources]]; the first step is to prove that they are valid quotes. If they are, then all the editors should discuss whether they add to the article, and whether they should be included.<br />
<br />
Finally, I urge all of you to tone down your arguments; remember that you should [[WP:NPA|avoid all personal attacks]]. Stay civil, even if the other person may seem hostile. Remember that being antagonists will do nothing, and will not help toward creating a successful article.<br />
<br />
Hopefully you all will start having productive discussions, and create a wonderful article. Thanks! [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] |<small> [[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color = brown> note? ]]</font color>| [[User:Flcelloguy/Desk|Desk </small>]] 01:10, 10 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== RfA ==<br />
<br />
Will, [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Zappaz|my RfA nomination]] has become a platform for some editors that are discontent with my performace to criticize me as an editor (I am really trying hard to use nice words to describe this...). We have had our discrepancies but I think that we have managed to overcome most of these in an attempt to make articles better, so I will appreciate your vote be it for support, oppose or neutral, and some feedback from your experience in dealing with me. Thanks in advace. --[[User:Zappaz|ZappaZ]] [[Image:Yin_yang.png|12px]] 17:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== My RFA ==<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for supporting my RFA. It meant all the more coming from you. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 21:56, September 12, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Good faith ==<br />
<br />
Yes, I agree that it's funny -- particularly coming from an unregistered user writing as "TS". Seeing the humor in such situations is the only way to stave off Wikiburnout. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 05:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Magdoff==<br />
Sorry to bother. I have posted a Request for Comment for the pages [[Talk:Harry Magdoff and espionage]] and [[Talk:Harry Magdoff]]. Endless revert wars and edit conflicts. Input welcome. --[[User:Cberlet|Cberlet]] 22:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== LaRouche ==<br />
<br />
Hi Will, I saw the Duggan edit but didn't even notice it was that IP address. It's clearly right that he should be blocked. I'd probably advise against you being the one to do it, because you were in a content dispute with him and took him to the arbcom, and I shouldn't do it for the same reason. I was always happy to block Cognition because I didn't feel he was H, but that IP address is almost certainly H (or Weed Harper if they were different people). Perhaps Snowspinner could be contacted? As for the IP address, we're not supposed to block any IP address indefinitely, as I understand it. A month block might be safer there. My recommendation would be to unblock both, and ask Snowspinner to look into it. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 07:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks, I'm sure you're right. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 07:36, 15 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Did you speak Snowspinner? I see H is still editing. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Herschelkrustofsky] [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 00:01, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No I hadn't. I undid the blocks and rationalized (hoped) that the activity was a fluke, though the anon IP edit to [[Jeremiah Duggan]] was pretty bad. This latest talk of "WikiCliques or POV posses" seems to be rather pointed, though he won't cite any specifics. I'll go ahead and drop Snowspinner a note. The ArbCom decision was unequivocal about the IP being an unpermitted sock/meat puppet of HK. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::There's no doubt about that being one of the two main IP addresses used by H/WH/CC, but particularly the first two. I believe it was thought to be their home address, so that they were either the same person or living together, but that's from memory: I've changed computers since then and all my H stuff is on the old one (though I can retrieve it quickly if I need to), and some of the info should be on the evidence page. El C might be prepared to do a block. He was online when I last checked. As for POV posses, yes, I saw it. ;-D [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 00:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Karl Rove]] ==<br />
<br />
Will, if you have time, pop by [[Karl Rove]] won't you? A very new and very aggressive editor is making some questionable edits backed up by such inflammatory rhetoric that it's difficult for other editors to concentrate on content, and has been difficult for me to steer the discussion toward a more fruitful goal. Understand if you don't have time, but if you do, your presence would be much appreciated. &middot; [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 20:30, 16 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Gold Watch==<br />
<br />
Thanks, Will. [[user:Ed Poor|That's]] the nicest thing anyone's done for me here for as long as I can remember. (-: sniff, choke, sob :-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 01:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
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:That ''was'' nice. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 01:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
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== math ==<br />
<br />
Why, silly old me, so it is! I don't know nothin' 'bout dividin' no numbers! .... If you have any thoughts on the unrelenting attempts to get AR's article to read as though AR wrote it, I'd be anxious to hear them. - [[User:Outerlimits|Outerlimits]] 22:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== edit summaries ==<br />
<br />
I will try to use them. :)<br />
<br />
signed CD<br />
<br />
==info==<br />
<br />
I preemptively blocked the editor you mentionned on my talk page, on wikicommons and wikiquote. I did not do so as a steward, who is not allowed to do it by himself. I did it as a board member. For now, the consequences are 1) that the editor reverted my messages on his talk page; 2) that the editor send me mails, calling me a fucking bitch; and 3) that Aphaia is questioning the validity of the block on wikiquote and might revert it in a few days. If you feel like leaving a message over there, you are most welcome. I will be away (and offline) for a week, leaving tomorrow. Cheers. [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 12:03, 18 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Your view is requested ==<br />
<br />
I am contacting logged-in users who have taken an interest in, or edited, '''[[Wikipedia_talk:Assume_good_faith]]''', and asking them to respond to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Assume_good_faith#A_major_issue_related_to_Good_Faith/ a question] I have placed on that page which goes to the policy of [[WP:AGF]]. <br />
<br />
Thanks in advance. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 23:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== from Paul ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, thanks for stopping by to say hi. I was giving Jonah, a newbie, a hand to ease his peace of mind and bring an outside view to the situation. I do recognize your user name, but don't recall any correspondence with you or anyone on the page; I also kept my view of the Biff matter very focused.<br />
<br />
It does seem a bit odd to me that an article with such a small body of text has so many disputed external links. I would think it would be easier to work on the article by harvesting some Google searches and compiling a nice profile on this guy. He is a bit obscure, but I say, if you're going to include him in the Wiki, then go ahead and really document everything you can, and make it interesting.<br />
<br />
I left Jonah messages on his page which may be of interest to you. Also am happy to help you out in any way I can.<br />
<br />
One more thing: Going over the reverts is time consuming, and I now understand why many times in a 3RR violation no one takes the time to actually review the reverts. I have some ideas, software wise, that could make it easier if I knew of a developer. Let me know if one springs to mind. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 09:40, 20 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I just read some remarks in the history of the talk page that indicate there were reversions going on there, too, in the form of deleting comments. If you think I should review that page for violations as well, let me know. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]]<br />
<br />
::You said, "The peripheral issues seem to be multiplying, but they are all based on one article so it doesn't seem to be a major problem for the project." I agree. I have found, however, that if I can sharpen my own skills and help other users, that is incentive enough for me to do some evaluations such as the one I made on Biff. By the way, I would appreciate any criticisms or error-identifying of my evaluation. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think I'm getting a firm grasp on reversions. It really isn't that complicated. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] 10:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Gross Discrepancies ==<br />
<br />
I find the article [[Pensacola Christian College]] to contain discrepancies with what actually goes on within the campus of PCC. I am currently a junior there, and there are things said here that certainly do not happen. I will certainly protest these inconsistencies, and will edit them myself. [[User:Pensacolaboy|Pensacolaboy]] 00:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nobs Redux at [[Talk:VENONA project]] ==<br />
Someone, not I, has consolidated the discussion over the Venona documents and how to represent them (prompted by the tect written by Nobs on many pages) onto a single page: [[Talk:VENONA project]]. I hope you will join us in trying to resolve many of the issues that keep cropping up across Wikipedia in this matter. Thanks.--[[User:Cberlet|Cberlet]] 12:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Toxic Waste ==<br />
Why did you delete<br />
::::::It can also relate to waste.Yeast die from the waste they produce (alcohol). Humans also die when their numbers produce too mush waste.<br />
<br />
[[User:By George|By George]]<br />
<br />
== The "Melissa Joan Hart"/"Sayville" anon is back... ==<br />
<br />
He's re-adding poor-quality external links to [[The Amityville Horror]] (it may be him, or one of his friends, who also added and re-added links on how to actually ''find'' the house) and he's back to his old tricks of trying to stir up [[User:Zappaz|Zappaz]] against me[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Zappaz&diff=prev&oldid=23759102]. (I just have to ask, how is it that ''every'' weirdo with a bug up his butt finds his way to Zappaz's page and starts pouring out complaints there?) However, this time he pulled something new, by starting a vague RfC against me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antaeus_Feldspar&diff=prev&oldid=23759261 here]. While I am not overly concerned with the effect an anon's vague allegations will have on my reputation, I do not want this to hang around forever. Could you make sure it gets handled appropriately? ("appropriately" would seem to me to be deleting it as invalid, as the anon clearly did not follow the required steps for user-conduct RfCs; however, I want it to be clear that I didn't just ask "delete this for me" or for anything else out of process.) -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 18:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The Butchering Bastards ==<br />
<br />
It's fine that you took it off. I was just trying to somewhat advertise, so I was pretty much mis-using wikipedia. I am extremely sorry, therefore if you think I should be blocked, then I guess you should do so. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well thanks, and also I want to tell you. That I'm the writer of the screenplay, I just use a different name when I write screenplays. I'm sure you assumed that, but yeah, I thought that maybe someone would read it and then rate it at its site, because I need to know what's wrong with it so I can rewrite it. I am working hard to get it made into a movie, but right now, I'm beginning to think it has no chance. And thanks again for understanding. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay well I guess I might not re-write it then, since it seems pretty pointless from what you've explained to me. I'll just figure out something else to do with any "talent" I could have. Since I'm sure that my screenplays suck anyway. Well thanks for enlightening me about that. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 23:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Since I guess I'm done with screenwriting. I would like you to atleast read and rate my most likely final screenplay. It is 8 pages, I made it short, so you wouldn't have to waste too much time reading it. It's somewhat based on something that has happened to me. It'll be up in a few days. It's called "Stephen and Steve", It has bad language, incase you care. If you want to read it I will tell you the address once it is on the website. But if you don't want to see it, just tell me. [[User:The Fascist Chicken|The Fascist Chicken]] 21:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Fairness==<br />
Willmcw: in the interests of fairness, after this edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:VENONA_project&diff=23811599&oldid=23810857], I humbly request you, as a neutral & fair third party, to remove usernames from the heading here [[Talk:Harry_Magdoff#Nobs_has_once_again_misrepresented_sources_in_his_espionage_paragraphs]]. Kindest regards for being fair. [[User:Nobs01|nobs]] 17:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I looked, but you'd already made the change. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[:Image:Telegraph Cucamonga and Ontario Peaks.jpg]] ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw. If you are the author of [[:Image:Telegraph Cucamonga and Ontario Peaks.jpg]], would you mind changing <nowiki>{{PD}} to {{PD-self}}</nowiki> to make that clearer? [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 16:26, 25 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Our friend ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, I have noticed [[User:216.175.112.9]] has a "suspected sockpuppet" tag on his page, identifying him as (possibly) Jonah Ayers. I believe this can now be changed to "confirmed," and thought I'd run it by you and get your opinion.<br />
<br />
Jonah has come to me for help in the past. I tried my best to do so, but he increasingly ignored me, when I didn't take his side (I guess).<br />
<br />
Today, when Jonah made a very substantial edit at the Biff page (logged in), he marked it as minor and failed to make a note in the edit summary. I caught this, and gave him a lesson on the "minor" on his talk page, and left it on the article's page as well. (It turns out it was a reversion, but it still shouldn't have been marked as minor.)<br />
<br />
He left a message on my talk page, anonymously, taking credit for the edit, and chastising me for my remarks. Do you think this statement constitutes enough of a confirmation to change the tag from "suspected" to "confirmed"? [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]]<br />
<br />
:Well, the puppet has now been blocked. What about the puppeteer? [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]] 21:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::By the way, I removed both mentions of my name from Jonah's talk page, as they were personal attacks (listing me under "trouble makers and vandals"). I don't take changing another's user page lightly, but I checked policy on this, and believe I am entitled to do this. [[User:Paul Klenk|paul klenk]] [[User talk:Paul Klenk|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Category Removal, Edit Summaries ==<br />
<br />
Willmcw, thanks for your note about including edit summaries. I realize that I should do so, and I will be more diligent in the future. Just in case you are wondering, an administrator told me that the policy for Categories is not to include an article in both a subcategory and its parent category. I had previously made the mistake of doing so and wanted to correct the errors. While I was at it, I corrected a few others that I found in error. [[User:Logophile|Logophile]] 07:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That's actually only part of the policy; there are exceptions to that rule. You can check the policy for yourself at [[WP:CLS]]. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 17:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Castro Cult dispute ==<br />
<br />
You've been active at [[Talk:Cult of personality#Fidel_Castro]]. After a long discussion I've now written an abbreviation that, in my view, settles the matter. Maybe you'd like to have a look and have another say on the subject. I've written a text for the article on 16 September, but that keeps on getting removed and put back again. So some more input is needed (possibly a vote?).<br />
<br />
I've also sent this message to the other previous contributors to the discussion, Cryptnotic, TJive, Mihnea Tudoreanu and Joolz [[User:DirkvdM|DirkvdM]] 09:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== screenplay ==<br />
<br />
This is the link to my long screenplay http://www.scriptbuddy.com/community/?p=4291529028&t=&pg= , my other short screenplay which I said something about, hasn't shown up on the site. So I don't have a link for that one. [[User:Private Butcher|Private Butcher]] 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==24.0.91.81 and sockpuppets==<br />
Hi. 24.0.91.81, along with a seires of new accounts, has been inserting a dispute tag in the [[Cold War]] article for days without offering a single explanation on any talk page. I just found out that you had to warn this editor about using sockpuppets about a month ago. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:24.0.91.81&diff=20391513&oldid=20390884] Since it seems like this account has been associated with a fairly long pattern of sockpuppet activity, it's probably worth an admin's attention. If you have time, could you please take a look? Thanks, [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 00:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks for the help! [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 20:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Concerted and vociferous personal attacks :-// ==<br />
<br />
Hi! xMule and aMule have been at odds since the aMule project was started on the day in 2003 when my internet access was blocked by the MPAA due to my development of xMule. I have largely moved on with my life and the war has largely ebbed since January of this year. Today I noticed on [[Talk:xMule]] a very vitriolic attack of my character among other disturbing things.<br />
<br />
First, a person emailed me about 2 weeks ago asking for xMule screenshots and wondering why xMule appeared dead. Now, this letter (posted by Kry of aMule (it's leader)) has been posted on wikipedia as a personal attack on my character. How Kry got the email is beyond me, why he felt it appropriate to post on wiki as an attack is typical if yet egregious (it's worse than the main page says it is).<br />
<br />
I don't know what I did to deserve being called "a demented freak" in the eyes of that guy but I find it very unpleasant and stopped reading from that point on, so it's likely it just degrades from there. I seek to have him and Kry banned for personal attacks on me (Kry personally attacked me on wiki before just when I was an anoynmous user).<br />
<br />
I really want that talk page comment stricken from wikipedia too because of the libel it employs. — [[User:HopeSeekr of xMule|HopeSeekr of xMule]] ([[User talk:HopeSeekr of xMule|Talk]]) 21:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Tom G Palmer==<br />
Dear Willmcw: I am appealing for your intervention in the case of the [[Tom G. Palmer]] page, and don't know how else to get in touch with you. Please visit that page and reference the discussion. Your edit is being systematically vandalized. -[[User:Rothbard|Rothbard]] 12:40, Oct 1, 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I'll try to take a look when I've got a chance. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 21:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==CfD==<br />
I'm on the prowl for competent editors who are coming up on recent changes to take a look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_September_23#Category:Totalitarian_dictators CfD] for a nightmare category. If you have time, please take a look. Thanks. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 23:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[Metrolink (Southern California)]] map link ==<br />
<br />
Hi Willmcw. I noticed that you added back the transit-rider.com map link to the Metrolink article. While I support the idea of having a direct map link in the article, there is a technical problem with the link you provided.<br />
<br />
It looks like Transit-Rider.com's web server is not set up to serve [[PNG]] images correctly. They are being returned with a generic [[MIME type]] of '''application/octet-stream''', instead of the correct MIME type of '''image/png'''. What this means is that that link is only directly viewable in [[Internet Explorer]] (since it ignores the HTTP standards and uses the file extension to guess the file type). [[Mozilla]]-based browsers (and I suspect [[Opera (browser)]] and [[Safari (browser)]] too) will show a "download this file" dialog instead of displaying it.<br />
<br />
There is nothing you can do about this per se, but it might be nice to notify transit-rider.com of the configuration problem to allow users of non-IE browsers to easily view the image. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 00:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps this is due to a setting in browsers. The page come up fine for me in Opera 8.5. Firefox exhibits the behavior you mention. Too bad there is problem, it's a good map. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 00:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Glad to hear it works in more than just IE. However, I don't think that Mozilla-based browsers have a setting that will allow them to display the image. Are you interested in contacting Transit-Rider.com about fixing their server configuration, or would you like me to do so since I'm already familiar with their problem from a technical level? [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 01:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Could you please? Thanks, -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::The MIME type thing is not a problem when the URL is in an HTML image tag (as it is on the Transit Rider site), so I think it would actually be better to link to http://www.transit-rider.com/ca.losangeles/metrolink.cfm?id=map instead of directly to the PNG. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 01:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yes, that loads perfectly in Firefox. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:36, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Cool, I've updated the article to point to the page instead of the image directly. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 02:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Ethnic labels ==<br />
<br />
What is this stupid cat called "Category:English_Americans"? And putting people like James Garner, Carrie Fisher, Jane Fonda, Peter Fonda, Robert Redford, Ashlee Simpson,<br />
Jessica Simpson, Tom Cruise, Chevy Chase, Johnny Cash, David Cassidy, Tom Hanks, etc., etc., etc. This [[User:Vulturell]] putting people like this in that category is a joke. I can see people like Cary Grant, Charlie Chaplin, Alfred Hitchcock, etc., who were born in England, but then spent the major portion of their life in the U.S. in the cat, but not these other people, this is silly. [[User:WikiDon|WikiDon]] 20:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree. You might drop [[User:Vulturell]] a note asking him to use more restraint. He is apparenlty in a project to assign ethnic or national labels to every celebrity. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 20:38, 2 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Christmas==<br />
In case you don't revisit the Political Correctness web page, here's the link to UC Berkeley, that noted Dec. 25 as "Winter Holiday". [http://opa.vcbf.berkeley.edu/AcademicCalendar/calendardisp.cfm?terms=current]<br />
<br />
== Ronnie Earle ==<br />
<br />
The crooksandliars link was there because people starting to call Earle a "Democrat party agent" and they act like no jury was involved in Delays inditment.<br />
<br />
:I added it back with a description. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 01:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Overtaken ==<br />
<br />
Now SlimVirgin 16,854, Willmcw 16,941: spooky. Does this mean we're more than just a POV possé, but now actually the same person? ;-D You've done many more edits to articles than me, though. I spend too much time on talk pages, desperately trying to justify myself. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 18:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What do you think about User Rangerdude contributions? ==<br />
<br />
Hi!<br />
<br />
I used english Wikipedia to get information about [[James M. McPherson]] to create an article in german Wikipedia. I wonder if the mentioned critic [[Thomas DiLorenzo]] is reliable. The article about him tells that he's related to the [[League of the South]]. Have you read the wikipedia information about this organisation? I don't know whether they are harmless or extremist. The relation of DiLorenzo to such an organisation does not automatically conclude not reliable statements about McPherson but the mentioned DiLorenzo predicitions I've read in the McPherson article are IMHO POV, disproportionate or absolutely not true. Especially that ''marxism''-allegation. I've just read ''Battle Cry of Freedom'', but this several times, and I found absolutely no appearance of Marxism. Seems more like an "MacCarthy"-style accusation.<br />
<br />
What do you think? Should I mention this DiLorenzo guy in the german article? <br />
<br />
I tried do mention DiLorenzo's relation to the [[League of the South]] so the reader himself can judge the reliability of this critic, but user Rangerdude is watching this article like a guard dog to defend his as I guess POV contributions, so I had no chance and didn't want to start a edit war without knowing more about DiLorenzo criticism.<br />
<br />
[[User:E^(nix)|E^(nix)]] 18:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)</div>E^(nix)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_M._McPherson&diff=24731474James M. McPherson2005-10-04T14:47:32Z<p>E^(nix): /* Academic criticism */</p>
<hr />
<div>:''For the Civil War General of the same name see [[James B. McPherson]]''<br />
<br />
'''James M. McPherson''' (born [[October 11]], [[1936]]) is an [[American Civil War]] [[historian]], and is the George Henry Davis '86 Professor of [[United States History]] at [[Princeton University]]. He received the [[Pulitzer Prize]] for ''Battle Cry of Freedom'', his most famous book. He was the president of the [[American Historical Association]] in [[2003]], and is a member of the editorial board of [[Encyclopædia Britannica]].<br />
<br />
Born in [[Valley City, North Dakota|Valley City]], [[North Dakota]], he received his [[Bachelor of Arts]] at [[Gustavus Adolphus College]] ([[St. Peter, Minnesota|St. Peter]], [[Minnesota]]) in [[1958]] (from which he graduated ''cum laude''), and his [[Doctor of Philosophy|Ph.D.]] at [[Johns Hopkins University]] in [[1963]]. Currently he resides in [[Princeton, New Jersey|Princeton]], [[New Jersey]], and is divorced with one child. <br />
<br />
==Scholarship==<br />
McPherson's works include ''The Struggle for Equality'', awarded the [[Anisfield-Wolf Award]]. In [[1989]], he published his Pulitzer-winning book, ''Battle Cry of Freedom''. And in [[1998]] another book, ''For Cause and Comrades'', received the [[Lincoln Prize]]. In 2002 he published both a scholarly book, ''Crossroads of Freedom: Antietam 1862,'' and a history of the Civil War for children, ''Fields of Fury''. Unlike many other historians, he has a reputation of trying to make history accessible to the public. Most of his works are marketted to popular audiences and his book ''Battle Cry of Freedom'' has long been a popular one-volume general history of the Civil War.<br />
<br />
McPherson was named the "2000 Jefferson Lecturer in the Humanities" by the [[National Endowment for the Humanities]]. In making the announcement NEH Chairman William Ferris said:<br />
:James M. McPherson has helped millions of Americans better understand the meaning and legacy of the American Civil War. By establishing the highest standards for scholarship and public education about the Civil War and by providing leadership in the movement to protect the nation's battlefields, he has made an exceptional contribution to historical awareness in America.[http://www.neh.gov/news/archive/20000111.html]<br />
<br />
McPherson is a proponent of [[revisionist history]]. "Revisionism," he argues, is "what makes history vital and meaningful"[http://www.historians.org/Perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm]<br />
<br />
===Academic criticism===<br />
Some of his Civil War scholarship has come under criticism from [[economics|economist]] and [[Abraham Lincoln]] critic [[Thomas DiLorenzo]], a member of the [[League of the South]], for a perceived latent pro-North bias to his work and for exhibiting a [[liberal]] political bent. In particular he has critiqued McPherson's grasp of economic issues.[http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo58.html] According to DiLorenzo, McPherson often relies upon his own reputation as a well known Civil War historian rather than any training in economics (he has none) or qualified examination of statistical data to provide economic analysis that is erroneous. Another criticism by DiLorenzo includes the allegation that his work exhibits radical, [[Marxist]] tendencies -- a critique that has also been made against Civil War historian [[Eric Foner]].<br />
<br />
==Politics & advocacy==<br />
McPherson is known for his outspokenness on contemporary issues and his activism, such as his work on behalf of the preservation of Civil War battlefields. As president in 1993-1994 of Protect Historic America, he lobbied against the construction of a commercial theme park at the [[Manassas]] battlefield. He has also served on the boards of the Civil War Trust and the Association for the Preservation of Civil War Sites, and on the Civil War Sites Advisory Committee.<br />
<br />
In 1998, McPherson joined a group of scholars, most of them law professors, in supporting President [[Bill Clinton]] against [[impeachment]] charges during the [[Monica Lewinsky]] [[scandal]]. <br />
<br />
As president of the American Historical Association (AHA), he used his regular "President's Column" in "Perspectives" to address a some of politically and socially-sensitive issues. He criticized the [[George W. Bush|Bush]] administration's doctrine of [[preemptive war]] in [[Iraq]], citing the examples the American Civil war and World War II. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0305/0305pre1.cfm] Responding to comments in 2003 when Bush and [[Condoleezza Rice]] criticized revisionist historians, McPherson accused the Bush Administration of using deceptive information to "justify an unprovoked invasion" of Iraq. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm] In another column, he detailed the "older forms [[affirmative action]]", such as the "old boys network", that helped people like him advance, and acknowledges that contemporary affirmative action, while imperfect, is less unjust than the old system. [http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0304/0304pre1.cfm]<br />
<br />
The practice of espousing contemporary political beliefs in his columns drew backlash and criticism from several AHA members who wrote letters to the editor of "Perspectives". David F. Krein, of [[Scott Community College]] in Iowa, responded that McPherson "seems intent to use his 2003 term as AHA president as his own "bully pulpit" (as president of the AHA) to promote a personal political agenda" and "implore(d) him to stop" the politicization of his column "for the dignity of the profession" of historians.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let1.cfm] Don McArthur, of Maine South High School in Illinois, responded that McPherson's politics were "furthering a general public mistrust of academic historians" and requested that he "moderate his obviously intense political aversion to the (Bush) administration" when writing in official AHA publications.[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let2.cfm] Martin J. Weiner, of [[Rice University]], described McPherson's columns as "the most unprofessional thing I have seen in 35 years of reading ''Perspectives,''" the AHA's newsletter in which they were published, and suggested the organization's Professional Division should consider McPherson's actions as an "abuse of his office."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0310/0310let3.cfm]<br />
<br />
In response, McPherson claimed that he received generally favorable "personal communications" from other members about his columns, stated that he was only giving his personal views, and argued that contemprorary politics is an appropriate field for the commentary of historians. He concluded by asking readers, "to decide whether my 'conclusions and arguments' are more or less likely 'to flow automatically from ideology rather than from evidence' than those of the Bush administration."[http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0311/0311let4.cfm]<br />
<br />
McPherson has criticized those who defend the inclusion of Confederate imagery in state flags, such as Senator [[Trent Lott]]. He has also favored revisionary presentations at Civil War sites sites in the [[National Park Service]]. Actions such as these have led his critics such as DiLorenzo to charge him with politicizing the battlefields.[http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/005734.html]<br />
<br />
McPherson has been interviewed in the World Socialist Web Site [http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/history/h-mcpher.shtml], a publication of a [[socialist]] political party. He has also published articles in [[liberal]] opinion magazine ''[[The Nation]]''. <br />
<br />
===Democracy Now interview & UDC boycott===<br />
McPherson's political views have led to charges of [[bias]] against him and at least one [[boycott]] of his books. In [[1999]] McPherson drew the ire of Confederate genealogy groups when he and [[Ed Sebesta]], a self-described "anti-[[neo-Confederate]] movement" researcher, had an interview with [[Amy Goodman]] and [[Juan_Gonzalez_(journalist)|Juan Gonzalez]] on the [[liberal]] [[Pacifica Radio]] network's [[Democracy Now!]] program. The topic of the interview was then-candidate [[George W. Bush]]'s support for the Museum of the Confederacy. During the interview McPherson described the [[Sons of Confederate Veterans]] and [[United Daughters of the Confederacy]] - two Civil War genealogical groups that are over one hundred years old - as neo-confederate groups. McPherson also stated:<br />
<br />
:"I think, I agree a 100% with Ed Sebesta about the motives or the hidden agenda, not too, not too deeply hidden I think of such groups as the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. They are dedicated to celebrating the Confederacy and rather thinly veiled support for white supremacy. And I think that also is the again not very deeply hidden agenda of the Confederate flag issue in several southern states."<br />
<br />
McPherson also remarked that board members of the [[Museum of the Confederacy]] in [[Richmond, Virginia]] were "undoubtedly neo-Confederate." These comments outraged members of the UDC and SCV, bringing condemnation of McPherson and causing boycott calls against his books.[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html] A year later McPherson responded to the boycott campaign by elaborating on his comments:<br />
<br />
:"If I implied that all U.D.C. chapters or S.C.V. chapters or anyone who belongs to those is promoting a white-supremacist agenda, that's not what I meant to say," he said. "What I meant to say is that some of these people have a hidden agenda of white supremacy, (which) they might not even recognize they're involved in"<br />
<br />
Members of the UDC and SCV were similarly offended by these comments. The Virginia UDC responded in their newsletter that "Far from apologizing for his baseless accusations of racism, (McPherson) has now added ignorance to the list of sins that we have committed." The groups continue to oppose McPherson. [http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html]<br />
<br />
==Bibliography==<br />
*''The struggle for equality; abolitionists and the Negro in the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1964.<br />
*''The Negro's Civil War; how American Negroes felt and acted during the war for the Union'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Pantheon Books, 1965.<br />
*''Marching toward freedom; the Negro in the Civil War, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Knopf, 1968, c1967.<br />
*''Blacks in America; bibliographical essays'', by James M. McPherson and others. 1st ed. Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1971.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', by James M. McPherson. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, c1975.<br />
*''Region, race, and Reconstruction: essays in honor of C. Vann Woodward'', edited by J. Morgan Kousser and James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1982.<br />
*''Ordeal by fire: the Civil War and Reconstruction'', by James M. McPherson.1st ed. New York: Knopf: Distributed by Random House, c1982.<br />
*''Lincoln and the strategy of unconditional surrender'', by James M. McPherson. Gettysburg, Pa: Gettysburg College, 1984.<br />
*''How Lincoln won the war with metaphors, by James M. McPherson. Fort Wayne, Ind.: Louis A. Warren Lincoln Library and Museum, 1985.<br />
*''Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1988.<br />
*''Battle chronicles of the Civil War'', by James McPherson, editor; Richard Gottlieb, managing editor. 6 vols. New York: Macmillan Pub. Co.; London: Collier Macmillan Publishers, c1989.<br />
*''Abraham Lincoln and the second American Revolution'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.<br />
*''American political leaders: from colonial times to the present'', by Steven G. O'Brien; editor, Paula McGuire; consulting editors, James M. McPherson, Gary Gerstle. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO, c1991.<br />
*''Why the Confederacy lost'', edited by Gabor S. Boritt ; essays by James M. McPherson ... [et al.]. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.<br />
*''What they fought for, 1861-1865'', by James M. McPherson. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, c1994.<br />
*''The atlas of the Civil War'', edited by James M. McPherson. New York: Macmillan, c1994.<br />
*''"We cannot escape history": Lincoln and the last best hope of Earth'', edited by James M. McPherson. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1995.<br />
*''The abolitionist legacy: from Reconstruction to the NAACP'', James M. McPherson. 2nd ed. with a new preface by the author. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1995.<br />
*''The American heritage new history of the Civil War'', narrated by Bruce Catton; edited and with a new introduction by James McPherson. New York: Viking, 1996.<br />
*''Drawn with the sword: reflections on the American Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.<br />
*''For cause and comrades: why men fought in the Civil War'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.<br />
*''Is blood thicker than water?: crises of nationalism in the modern world'', by James M. McPherson. Toronto: Vintage Canada, c1998.<br />
*''Personal memoirs of U.S. Grant'', by Ulysses S. Grant; with an introduction and notes by James M. McPherson. New York: Penguin Books, 1999.<br />
*''Encyclopedia of Civil War biographies'', edited by James M. McPherson. 3 vols. Armonk, NY: Sharpe Reference, c2000.<br />
*''Crossroads of freedom: Antietam'', by James M. McPherson. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2002.<br />
*''The boys in blue and gray'', written by James M. McPherson. New York: Atheneum Books for Young Readers, c2002.<br />
*''The illustrated Battle cry of freedom: the Civil War era'', by James M. McPherson. New York: Oxford University Press, c2003.<br />
*''Hallowed ground: a walk at Gettysburg'', by James M. McPherson. 1st ed. New York: Crown Journeys, 2003.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
<br />
*[http://www.barnesandnoble.com/writers/writer.asp?cid=627214 Barnes & Noble - Meet the Writers]<br />
*[http://history.princeton.edu/index.php?app=people&id=46 Princeton University Biography]<br />
*[http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0412226&mode=thread&tid=5 ''Democracy Now'' November 3, 1999: George W. Bush and the Confederacy: Where Does He Stand?] <br />
*[http://users.erols.com/va-udc/mcpherson.html Virginia UDC: Princeton Educator Maligns UDC]<br />
*[http://www.sierratimes.com/goldberg.htm James McPherson, Nihil Obstat] in the ''Sierra Times''<br />
<br />
[[Category:1936 births|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:American historians|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:MacArthur Fellows|McPherson, James M.]]<br />
[[Category:Pulitzer Prize winners|McPherson]]</div>E^(nix)