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Richard Belzer

2007-06-18T05:55:40Z

X86bsdunix:

{{Infobox actor
| name = Richard Belzer
| image =
| imagesize =
| caption =
| birthdate = {{birth date and age|1944|8|4}}
| location = {{flagicon|USA}} [[Bridgeport, Connecticut]], [[USA]]
| deathdate =
| height = 6'1" (1.85 meters)
| birthname = Richard Jay Belzer
| othername = The Belz
| spouse = [[Harlee McBride]] (1985 - present) Dalia Danoch (1976 - 1978) (divorced) Gail Susan Ross (1966 - 1972) (divorced)
| notable role = [[John Munch|Det. John Munch]] in ''[[Homicide: Life on the Street]]'' (1993 - 1999) and ''[[Law & Order: Special Victims Unit]]'' (1999 - present)
| homepage =
}}
'''Richard Jay Belzer''' (born [[August 4]], [[1944]] in [[Bridgeport, Connecticut]]) is an [[United States|American]] stand up [[Stand up comedian|comedian]], [[writer]] and [[actor]], best known for his work as [[John Munch|Det. John Munch]], on ''[[Homicide: Life on the Street]]'' and ''[[Law & Order: Special Victims Unit]]''.

== Biography ==
=== Early life and education ===
Born in [[Bridgeport, Connecticut]], he grew up with his parents and older brother. His mother was neglectful and physically abusive, but his father worked hard to move his family out of the poverty of [[Project homes|the projects]] and into a better life. Richard worked as a paperboy and became known for his strong personality, which "caused him to be kicked out of every school he attended". Nonetheless, Belzer attended and graduated from Andrew Warde High School in the neighboring town of [[Fairfield, Connecticut]].

=== Early career ===
After high school, he worked as a reporter for the ''Bridgeport Post''. He attended Dean Junior College in Franklin, MA for a year and a part of a semester before being asked to leave for leading too many student demonstrations. According to one interview, he was majoring in Physical Education. After leaving college, Belzer was encouraged by his father to enlist in the Army.

=== Stand-up comic ===
He soon realized he was unsuitable for the military and tried to get out, and eventually he was successful at terminating his enlistment early. After the Army, Belzer moved to [[New York City]] and began working as a stand-up comic. He participated in the Channel One comedy group that satirized television and became the basis for the cult movie ''[[The Groove Tube]]'', in which he appeared as a man on the other side of the law from his Detective Munch character, as the co-star of the ersatz t.v. show, "The Dealers".

Belzer was the audience warm-up comedian for ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'' in its premiere season and made three guest appearances on the show in 1976 and 1978. (However, despite appearing as such in the film ''[[Man on the Moon]]'', Belzer was not the first host of the show.)

=== Film acting ===
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Belzer became an occasional film actor. He is noted for his small roles in ''[[Fame (movie)|Fame]]'', ''[[Night Shift (film)|Night Shift]]'', and ''[[Scarface (1983 movie)|Scarface]]''. He also was a player on the ''[[National Lampoon]] Radio Hour'', a half-hour comedy program aired on some 600 U. S. stations from 1973 to 1975. Several of his sketches were released on National Lampoon albums drawn from the Radio Hour including several bits in which he portrayed a pithy call-in talk show host named [[Dick Valentine]]. In the late 1970s he co-hosted ''Brink & Belzer'' on 660AM [[WFAN|WNBC]] (New York City).

Richard Belzer survived [[testicular cancer]] in 1984, his [[HBO]] special and comedy CD ''Another Lone Nut'' [http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001ZGT/] pokes fun at this, as well as his status as a well-known "[[Conspiracy Theorist]]."

=== Marriages ===
Belzer married actress [[Harlee McBride]] in 1985. His previous marriages were with Gail Susan Ross ([[1966]]-[[1972]]) and Dalia Danoch ([[1976]]-[[1978]]).

===Hulk Hogan Incident===
In 1985 on his [[cable TV]] talk show ''[[Hot Properties (talk show)|Hot Properties]]'', Belzer said wrestling was fake and insisted [[Hulk Hogan]] put a wrestling move on him. Hulk Hogan put Belzer in a front chin lock or [[sleeper hold]], which caused Belzer to pass out. When Hogan released him, Belzer hit his head on the floor, sustaining a laceration to his scalp which required him to be hospitalized briefly. Belzer sued Hogan for 5 million dollars, and it was later settled out of court. Belzer used the settlement (rumored to be $1.5 million) to purchase a cottage in France, where he and his wife Harlee live when he's not working in the U.S. On October 20, 2006 on the ''[[Bubba the Love Sponge]] Show'' it was claimed (with Hogan live on the phone) that the settlement totalled $5 million, half from Hogan and half from [[Vince McMahon]].

In 2005 on VH1's ''Hogans Knows Best'', Hulk Hogan paid a visit to Belzer in France at his cottage. Apparently Belzer wanted to re-enact the "head lock," and the incident happened again.{{Fact|date=June 2007}} No lawsuit was filed.

Belzer used the incident in his [[HBO]] special ''Another Lone Nut'' as part of his stand-up routine.

=== Television ===
In the 1990s, Belzer appeared frequently on television, including a movie role in which he appeared as an [[Los Angeles Police Department|LAPD]] detective in ''[[A Very Brady Sequel]]''. He was a regular on ''[[The Flash (TV series)|The Flash]]'' television show. In several episodes of ''[[Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman]]'', he played [[Inspector William Henderson]]. He followed that success with starring roles on ''[[Homicide: Life on the Street]]'' (1993-1999) and ''[[Law & Order: Special Victims Unit]]'' (1999 - ), playing the same character ([[John Munch|Det. John Munch]]) in both series.

In addition, he has also played Det. John Munch in episodes of six other series:
* ''[[Law & Order]]'' - 4 episodes: "Charm City Part 1", "Baby, It's You", "Sideshow" and "Entitled Part 2".
* ''[[The X-Files]]'' - 1 episode: "Unusual Suspects"
* ''[[The Beat (TV series)|The Beat]]'' - 1 episode: "They Say It's Your Birthday"
* ''[[Law & Order: Trial by Jury]]'' - 1 episode: "Skeleton (2)"
** Belzer's appearance on ''Trial by Jury'', which aired [[April 15]], [[2005]], made him the third actor ever to play the same character in six different prime time TV series. The other two actors are [[John Ratzenberger]] and [[George Wendt]] who played [[Cliff Clavin]] and [[Norm Peterson]] in ''[[Cheers]]'' (1982-1993), ''[[St. Elsewhere]]'' (1985), ''[[The Tortellis]]'' (1987), ''[[Wings (TV series)|Wings]]'' (1990), ''[[The Simpsons]]'' (1994) and ''[[Frasier]]'' (2002).
* ''[[Arrested Development (TV series)|Arrested Development]]'' - 1 episode: "[[Exit Strategy (Arrested Development episode)|Exit Strategy]]" (Belzer also appeared in episode "[[S.O.B.s]]", but as himself.)
** His appearance in "Exit Strategy" marked the first time an actor had ever played the same character in 7 different prime time series.
** Although Belzer did not play the role, a Muppet caricature of Munch appeared on ''Sesame Street''. In an episode which aired [[August 14]], [[2006]], Muppet performer Joey Mazzarino imitated Belzer's portrayal in a "Law & Order: Special Letters Unit" spoof, and the character was still called Munch. Apart from this, Munch has been the only fictional character played by a single actor to appear on seven different television shows. These shows were on three different networks: [[NBC]] (''Homicide: Life on the Street'', the ''Law & Order'' shows), and [[Fox Broadcasting Company|FOX]] (''The X-Files'', ''Arrested Development''), [[UPN]] (''The Beat'').

He also appeared in [[Comedy Central]]'s broadcast of the [[Friars Club]] roast of [[Chevy Chase]].

Belzer was honored by the New York [[Friars Club]] and the Toyota Comedy Festival [[June 9]], [[2001]] as the honoree of the first ever roast that was open to the public. Comedians and friends on the dais included Roast master [[Paul Shaffer]], [[Christopher Walken]], [[Danny Aiello]], [[Barry Levinson]], [[Robert Klein]], [[Bill Maher]], ''SVU'' co-stars [[Mariska Hargitay]], [[Christopher Meloni]], [[Ice-T]], and [[Dann Florek]], and ''Law & Order''’s [[Jerry Orbach]].

== Books By Richard Belzer ==
* ''UFOs, JFK, and Elvis: Conspiracies You Don't Have To Be Crazy To Believe'', ISBN 0-345-42918-4
* ''How to Be a Stand-Up Comic'', ISBN 0-394-56239-9
* ''Momentum: The Struggle for Peace, Politics, and the People'' (By Belzer and Marjorie Mowlam), ISBN 0-340-79394-5

== Trivia ==
* Belzer's wife [[Harlee McBride]] made 2 soft porn movies Young Lady Chatterley (1977)[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076944/] and Young Lady Chatterley II (1985)[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090356/]. She also had a recurring role in ''[[Homicide: Life on the Street]]'' as Alyssa Dryer
* He has appeared in episodes of four different series with [[Sam Waterston]]: ''[[Law & Order]]'', ''[[Homicide: Life on the Street]]'', ''[[Law & Order: Special Victims Unit]]'' and ''[[Law & Order: Trial by Jury]]''.
* His trademark is that he often appears wearing sunglasses, even indoors, due to a rare degenerative eye disease that makes him overly photosensitive.
* Richard Belzer testified on behalf of a criminal who was running from actual Baltimore police and ran onto the set of ''Homicide: Life on the Street''. The criminal surrendered to the actors. Belzer said the look on the man's face was adequate punishment.
* Former jobs include teacher, census-taker, jewelry salesman and dockworker.
* He is a noted conspiracy theorist, as is his character in the Law & Order Franchise.
* Fellow ''SVU'' star [[Mariska Hargitay]] mentioned on ''The Tonight Show with Jay Leno'', that Belzer occasionally gets rides to work by NYPD police officers.
* Richard Belzer voiced a character "Loogie" for an episode in [[South Park]]'s 4th season. Loogie, a young mafia boss who ran a multi-city empire which generated revenues by placing teeth under unsuspecting children's pillows and then returning later for the cash.
* [[Ice T]] and Belzer's characters on [[Law and Order: Special Victims Unit]] visited a lawyer's office undercover, and Ice T introduced his silent partner as "My Jew."
* Belzer appears in the Kansas video "Can't Cry Anymore" as the band's producer.
* Cousin of [[Henry Winkler]]. Belzer's aunt and uncle (Henry Winkler's parents) were survivors of the Holocaust.

== Quotes ==
* On an appearance by [[Ann Coulter]] on [[Bill Maher]]'s ''Real Time'' (HBO, 2004, 2005, 2006) Belzer said, "She is a [[Fascism|Fascist]] party doll."
* During the [[Friar's Club]] Roast (Comedy Central, Sunday December 1, 2002) of [[Chevy Chase]], Belzer said, "The only time Chevy Chase has a funny bone in his body is when I fuck him in the ass."
* When appearing on The View (ABC 1999, 2003, 2004) Belzer said, "How you bitches doin'?"

== External links ==
* [http://richardbelzer.proboards83.com/index.cgi Richard Belzer Message Board]
* {{imdb name|0001938|Richard Belzer}}
* [http://www.nbc.com/Law_&_Order:_Special_Victims_Unit/bios/Richard_Belzer.html NBC Biography]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP7u5Djca3o Video Clip - Hulk Hogan & Richard Belzer Incident on Hot Properties]
* [http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2711277?loomia_si=1 Video Clip - Part of appearance on Bill Maher's ''Real Time'']

{{DEFAULTSORT:Belzer, Richard}}
[[Category:American character actors]]
[[Category:American film actors]]
[[Category:American television actors]]
[[Category:American television talk show hosts]]
[[Category:American stand-up comedians]]
[[Category:National Lampoon people]]
[[Category:Jewish American actors]]
[[Category:Jewish American comedians]]
[[Category:People from Bridgeport, Connecticut]]
[[Category:1944 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:Conspiracy theorists]]

[[fr:Richard Belzer]]

Paul Schrieber

2007-05-30T05:17:03Z

X86bsdunix:

'''Paul Schrieber''' (born [[June 30]] [[1966]] in [[Eugene, Oregon]]) is an [[umpire (baseball)|umpire]] in [[Major League Baseball]]. His major league career began in 1998; he had previously umpired in the [[Northwest League]] (1990), [[California League]] (1991-92), [[Florida State League]] (1993), and the [[Southern League]] (1994-95).

He worked the 2000 [[Major League Baseball All-Star Game]] and the 1999-2001 [[Division Series]]

Schrieber's crew in 2006 includes [[Dana DeMuth]](Crew Chief), [[Jim Joyce]], and [[Doug Eddings]].

In his first Major League game, he held an empty seat for his mother, who passed away from [[breast cancer]]

==Personal Life==
He currently resides in Scottsdale, Arizona with his wife, Allison (neé Kersey), and two sons, Jack and Kevin. Attended [[Portland State University]] and [[Canada Junior College]] (where he recieved his degree), and played baseball throughout.

==External links==
*[http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/bio.jsp?id=2897 Major league profile]

[[Category:Baseball umpires|Schrieber, Paul]]
[[Category:1966 births|Schrieber, Paul]]
[[Category:Living people|Schrieber, Paul]]

Paul Schrieber

2007-05-30T05:10:32Z

X86bsdunix: Initial Content

'''Paul Schrieber''' (born [[June 30]] [[1966]] in [[Eugene, Oregon]]) is an [[umpire (baseball)|umpire]] in [[Major League Baseball]]. His major league career began in 1998; he had previously umpired in the [[Northwest League]] (1990), [[California League]] (1991-92), [[Florida State League]] (1993), and the [[Southern League]] (1994-95).

He worked the 2000 [[All-Star Game]] and the 1999-2001 [[Division Series]]

Schrieber's crew in 2006 includes [[Dana DeMuth]](Crew Chief), [[Jim Joyce]], and [[Doug Eddings]].

In his first Major League game, he held an empty seat for his mother, who passed away from [[breast cancer]]

==Personal Life==
He currently resides in Scottsdale, Arizona with his wife, Allison (neé Kersey), and two sons, Jack and Kevin. Attended [[Portland State University]] and [[Canada Junior College]] (where he recieved his degree), and played baseball throughout.

==External links==
*[http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/bio.jsp?id=2897 Major league profile]

[[Category:Baseball umpires|Schrieber, Paul]]
[[Category:1966 births|Schrieber, Paul]]
[[Category:Living people|Schrieber, Paul]]

User:X86bsdunix

2007-03-20T04:54:32Z

X86bsdunix:

I'm still kind of new to this, and trying to get everything straightened out :)
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User:X86bsdunix

2007-03-20T04:48:00Z

X86bsdunix:

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User:X86bsdunix

2007-03-20T04:28:20Z

X86bsdunix:

Talk:Baal

2007-03-20T01:11:07Z

X86bsdunix: /* Non-religious usage of Ba`al */

==References Needed==

Could the research here be better documented? I think that we are ignoring geography here. Don't the people of the region from Baal came know his history? I see a verbal mythology growing here that doesn't regard history well enough. I think we can be sure that the Baal of the Bible is not the Beelzebub which was known as Satan. Not every adversary of Yahweh is Satan. Please distinguish origins in written works and tablets and find a reference that will not be disputed easily, if you can. I appreciate that the story of Baal also includes contemporary perceptions, but perhaps we are ignoring textbooks on the subject. ;)
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Oops. ''Dispraise'' was not a neologism. Yet my dictionary doesn't list etymology or whether the word has become anachronistic. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 23:24 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

:"Dispraise" is an excellent word. It doesn't carry the baggage of "condemn." I have given up "contemn" as people no longer understand it. Words may become obsolete but never anachronistic. The ''use'' of a word may be an anachronism though. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 01:53, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

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I might change "Canaanite" to "Ancient Syrian" for a few reasons. ''Canaanite'' is a biblical term and suggests that the source of the entry is the Bible. However, most of the material comes from [[Ugarit]]. Also, ''Canaan'' usually implies the territory between biblical Judea and the sea. However, Ba'al was worshipped in a much wider area throughout ancient Syria (particularly the west, I think). Therefore, I find "Ancient Syrian" less ambiguous.--[[User:Administer|Administer]] 01:30, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
:It's always best to check some good archaeology sites and go with their flow, without deciding in the comfort of your own home. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 01:53, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
It depends on their specialty: biblical studies on one hand or Ugaritic language, ancient Middle Eastern disciplines, and comparative religion on the other. I'll leave it "Canaanite" for now, since that may be more meaningful to the audience most likely interested in the topic.--[[User:Administer|Administer]] 03:56, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

First of all, Canaanite is not just a Biblical term, and it's usage here is, in my opinion, more correct than the majority of the contents of the article itself. It seems to me that the majority of the article does in fact have the Bible as the main source. Furthermore, it uses the Bible in a way that is inconsistent with the findings of Bible critics as well as archaeology. But I don't have all the sources together right now to lay out a complete list of inaccuracies. However, at this point I'd like to express interest in seeing a section that addresses the traits of Ba'al that both El and Elohim of the Israelites co-opted in later stages.

On to the main point of this entry; I think "Canaanite" works better than "Ancient Syrian" since it is more correct of a term. "Ancient Syrian" is based on a modern geo-political classification that is mostly irrelevant to biblical studies. On the otherhand, "Canaanite" is no more correct than "Amorite" since the two are more or less synonymous in the Bible. Under the present circumstances it would be optimal to be able to use both, but that would be cumbersome and, when the article meets higher standards, incorrect. Another possibility would be "pre-Israelite", but the problem with this here is that the Israelites worship Ba'al as well. The only other thing that I can think of would be "Northwestern-Semitic". The usefulness of this term is that it describes who worshiped Ba'al.

You say,'''Canaan'' usually implies the territory between biblical Judea and the sea' To my understanding, that is misleading. Rather, they lived from northern Palestine, along the sea, between the hills, and into Central modern day Syria. This can be shown in different geographical references throughout the Hebrew Bible as well as the findings of archaeologists. I already addressed the problem with "Ancient Syria" as well as the futility of using the terms "Amorite" and "Canaanite" interchangeably. The case with Ba'al is that he has a very long history [dates needed] - and this is another point that needs to be addressed in the article - and was shared and worshipped by several peoples and in several areas. Thus a very general, yet ethnically and historically correct description is preferred. Northwestern-Semitic accomplishes the former, but is still insufficient as regards the latter. Thus, my vote is in for keeping with the status quo, until more a more suitable replacement can be found. Comments? Criticisms? For references on defining Canaanite, see A History of Isreal by John Bright, fourth edition p 116. [[User:hayadel|hayadel]]

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==''Ba‘al'' as a divine title in Israel and Judah==
I've added the following quote from Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary to this section.
At first the name Baal was used by the Jews for their
God without discrimination, but as the struggle between
the two religions developed, the name Baal was given up
in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like
Jerubbaal were changed to Jerubbesheth.

I think it says very succinctly almost everything the section says. However, it's still short enough to quote without infringing on the copyright.

I also think that it is from a source that is likely to be trusted by people with a religious point of view and this will help to make it clear that what is being described in this section is not an attempt to somehow undermine Judiasm and Christianity (by equating YaHWeH with Baal), but is simply an accepted fact regarding the evolution of the usage of the term ''baal'' in Hebrew.--[[User:Heathcliff|Heathcliff]] 01:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

For a critic of the idea that Baal was a demon, see below:

Ba’al Worship: The Testimony of Scripture
Alice C. Linsley

Are El and Baal different names for the same God or are these different Gods? Though religious practices associated with Baal are clearly condemned, there is evidence that these names were used interchangeably to speak of the Creator who is sovereign over all the earth, whose emblem in the ancient cosmology was the sun. El/Baal gave light and life to the whole earth and established maleness and femaleness for his purposes. The east represented God’s arousal and the west the bridal chamber. This symbolism continues to this day in Jewish mysticism. It is also the basis for the Christian expectation of the return of the Christ to take his bride, the Church.

In the religion of the Paleo-Dominion submission to El or Baal as Master was the mark of righteousness. The righteous man sought to be a good servant to the Master, fulfilling all that he perceived to be required by his God. In this context submission and humility constituted faithfulness. God was very high over the earth, the ruler of all things. God was Master. Those who set themselves up as high and mighty risked God’s wrath since the One God has no match. This is way Lamech is remembered a braggart who bragged to his wives Adah (Dawn) and T-zillah (Dust) that he had killed a man. Lamech’s sin isn’t simply his killing of another (for we do not know the circumstances of that killing), but that he had set himself as an equal to God.

In the religion of the Paleo-Dominion El or Baal was represented by the sun. Later the sun was represented as El’s chariot; thus the solar chariots at the temple that were destroyed by King Josiah in his attempt to eradicate the worship of Baal (II Kings 23:10-12). In this cosmology God was viewed as having two wives, one in the east and a second in the west. Thus by calling his wives Dawn and Dust, Lamech claims equality with God. Other afro-asiatic chiefs of Paleo-Dominion maintained two wives in separate households on a north-south axis as a sign of respect and submission to El or Baal. Thus Abraham maintained Sarah in Hebron and Keturah in Beersheba. There is evidence also that Kayin (Cain) maintained a wife in Nok (Nod) and another in Kano, again on a north-south axis.

Both “el” and “ba’al” mean power or strength, often rendered “master.” Baal is said to have had a wife named El-issa, which in Hebrew means the wife/female of El. The name El appears over 250 times in the Old Testament. The name Baal appears less often and is almost always presented in a negative light because the prophets and priests of Yahweh sought to eradicate the evil practices that developed logically from the ancient cosmology as a result of man’s sinful nature.

Consider some of the names for God, found in these constructs:

El-elyon: the most high God,El-shaddi: the all sufficient God;
El-olam: The everlasting God, el-echad: The One God, El- hanne’eman: The faithful God; El-tsaddik: The righteous God,
El-emet: The God of truth or the reliable God; Immanu-el: God with us

The name “Baal” appears in constructs with more earthy associations, suggesting that teh fous shifted from the holy otherness of El/Baal to the creature and creaturely.

Baal-berith: The God of the covenant,Baal-hammon: The God of fertility, Baal-shamam: The God who guards, Baal-gad: the God of good fortune, Baal-shalishah: The God of three; Baal-tamar: The God of the palm (The date palm was a symbol of fertility.) Baal-peor: The God of the opening/hole (female reproductive organ); and Baal-zephon: The God of the north.

Regading this last construt, Baal's cult seems to have its fullst expression among the Phoenicians in the north, and Carthage in North Africa was a major enter for child sacrifice to Baal up to about 300 B.C. This is significant because the sacrifice of Isaac (Genesis 22) takes place after Abraham went to live among the Philistines (Phoenicians) “for a long time.” (Genesis 21:34)

Further, there are many names that incorporate El or Baal, and the people who held these names are all descendents of Noah and sometimes closely related.

Genesis 4:18 Mehuja-el (who proclaims God);
Genesis 5:12 Mahalal-el (the Blessed God);
Genesis 16:11 Ishma-el (God hears);
Genesis 32:28 Isra-el (He prevails/struggles with God);
Numbers 1:6 Shelumi-el (God is my perfection or peace);
Numbers 1:9 El-iab (God is father);
Numbers 1:10 El-ishama (God guards);
Numbers 1:10 Gamali-el (Recompense of God or camel of God);
Numbers 1:13 Pagi-el (prevention or prayer of God);
Numbers 1:15 El-iasaph (God increases);
Numbers 3:19 Uzzi-el (God’s strength);
Numbers 10:29 Reu-el (God’s friend;)
Numbers 11:26 El-dad (favored of God);
Numbers 13:12 Ammi-el (God’s people);
Numbers 16:37 El-eazar (God is my help);
Numbers 26:45 Malki-el (God is king);
Samuel Samu-el (heard/asked of God)

There are also a few descendents of Noah named for Baal. Two are especially significant: Saul’s son, Ishbaal and the King of Sidon, Ethbaal.

II Samuel 2:12 Ish-baal (God saves)

Ishbaal’s name was changed to Ishbosheth, meaning “man of shame.” This is an editorial gloss showing that those who worshipped Yahweh stood against the worship practices associated with Baal.

I Kings 16:31 Eth-baal (Strength of Baal)

Ethbaal was the King of Sidon and the father of Jezebel. Ethbaal was not simply a king. He also was the high priest of Baal who sought to spread the worship of Baal throughout the ancient Near East from Tyre, his capital city. His daughter followed in her father’s footsteps when she attempted to wipe out the prophets of Yahweh, reversing the gains made by Josiah, the Reformer.

The worship of Baal represents a falling away from true worship and the cult of Baal came under strong criticism from the prophets, especially Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:8:3). King Josiah is praised in II Kings 23 for taking action to eradicate Baal worship in Israel. Hosea 2:16-17 says: “In that day,” declares the Lord, “you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer all me my ‘baal.’ I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.”

Now we may ask why Baal worship was so forcefully opposed by the prophets and the priests loyal to Yahweh. Here are some reasons:

· Child sacrifice
· Sacred prostitution
· The high places held phallic symbols (“lingum” in the Vedic tradition. Called “pillars” in the Bible.)
· Probably also symbols of the female reproductive organ (“yoni” in Vedic tradition. Called “peor” in the Bible.)

Under the influence of the rising power of Phoenicia, the worship of El became corrupt. Baal worship constituted idolatry because it focused on reproduction, fertility rites and sexual activity, substituting these for worship of the Holy God. Children were “offered back” to Baal (possibly still born or dead infants) with the petition to give a replacement child. Animals were sacrificed to Baal also, but when circumstances were desperate first-born sons were sacrificed as in the case of the king of Moab (II Kings 3:27).

In Jeremiah 7:30-31, the prophet declares God’s word against this practice:

“The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their horrors in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn theirs sons and daughters in the fire: something I never commanded, nor did it even enter my mind.”

Does this mean that those who held to the worship of El as he revealed himself to the Patriarchs, practiced a false religion? Not necessarily. The ancient cosmology of El being sovereign over all the earth, whose emblem was the sun, prevails among the righteous. One of the greatest of Israel’s prophets proclaimed this understanding. Amos praises God, saying: “For look! He it is who forges the mountains, creates the wind, who reveals his mind to humankind, who makes the dawn turn to darkness and strides on the heights of the world: Yahweh, God Sabaoth, is his name.” (Amos 4: 13)

At issue is not the cosmology held by the worshippers of El or Baal. At issue is the degradation of the holy places through the practices of sacred prostitution and child sacrifice. These practices were condemned by the prophets and the offering of sacrifices outside of the temple was forbidden by the priests of Yahweh. The corrective measures of God through the prophets and priests set a standard for holiness and worship that was far above that of the majority of people living at that time in the land of Canaan. Yet, it is clear that the ancient cosmology persisted and continues to this day, most prominently in Islam.

==No comment==
Moved here without further comment: " King [[Offa]] was Baal revivalist and designed his border with Wales along the twelve cycles of the original pagan Baal. Offa was probably converted to Ballism by a rogue Egyptian Shamasi called Erony Bola Oacs who preached the way of the goat throughout Mercia and post [[Druidic]] Gwynedd." --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 22:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

==Rewrite opening==
The section that reads "but they were not used in reference between a superior and an inferior or of a master to a slave." needs to be re-written; I don't understand it, but I don't know exactly what should be written there. --[[User:Slashme|Slashme]] 09:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Big merge ==

Having a seperate Ba'al article for those researching the Ba'al of Carthage / Phoenicians or demon ba'al unfairly cuts these people off from the primary, better source of information on the Semetic god ba'al, which is in this article. So I've taken a lot of time to merge the Ba'al of Carthage article and the demon ba'al article with this article, while preserving all previous information, including on the non-religious Hebrew word ba'al.

Thank you!

Nick

Mergist

[[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 13:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:The historical development is not set out in orderly enough fashion, perhaps. At any rate, a recent editor blanked blocks of text, saying "Besides the name and the god Baal position as a "pagan" god, there is no point in leading people to believe that they are synomymous". Perhaps the article needs to lead the reader more obviously and emphatically through the history of "Baal". History of ideas is the last kind of history one comes to understand. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 11:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

== Revert war over demon baal ==

Satanael: respectfully, deleting 99% of the Baal demon section AGAIN is inappropriate. They're very related. The Demon ''originated'' from the god! How can you say it is not related and just delete it? There is no claim they are "synonomous," this is clear. But this is clearly related and worthy of inclusion.

I reverted it...AGAIN!

Having no detail on the demon Ba'al in the main Ba'al article is bad for those researching the demon Ba'al because it unfairly cuts these people off from the primary, better source of information on the origins of ba'al. I've taken a lot of time to compile the Ba'al of Carthage article and the demon ba'al article with this article, while preserving all previous information, including on the non-religious Hebrew word ba'al. Please don't delete huge blocks of text.

Wetman: if you can think of a better way to integrate this text, please help :)

[[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 23:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

:It reads well to me, but we have at least one reader who doesn't get the drift... --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 10:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

::Excuse me, "doesn't get the drift." First of all, this article is about the god Baal, not the demon. The demon has little similarity with the god except for the name and the fact that Baal is a pagan god. Second of all, you haven't just put the info regarding the demon into the article, you added everything, including accounts in fiction, which has little relevancy to THE GOD BAAL.
::Second, you specifically made them synonymous by redirecting the [[Baal (demon)]] article to this article.
::Third, I don't see the point in adding Beelzebub into this article as well. Even though Beelzebub is one of the many Baal variants, so is Baal Phegor and Baal Berith, but there would be no reason to add them as well, just for the fact that they originally correspond to Baal.
::However, have it your way. Just for the record, you didn't "win" anything, I just prefer to have allies rather than adversaries. Second of all, if further info is added to the [[Baal (demon)]] or the [[Beelzebub]] article, don't add it here as well, as there is a reason for why those are headed as "main articles".
::Finally, I want to point out that after you have read and replied to this, I will remove the "Fictional accounts of the demon Baal" section, as it is pointless to have it here. If people want it, they can read it in the "Baal (demon)" article. And preferably, I'll remove the Beelzebub info as well, as there is little reason to keep it here, just because he originates from Baal. [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 12:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:::You can remove the "Baal in fiction" section, but please do not remove Beelzebub. The main variants of Baal should be in this article, the major variants and development of Ba'al is very relevent to anyone studying Ba'al and must remain. [[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 13:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:Done it. :) [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 14:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
_____________________________________________

A book on archeology I read stated that the evidence of Carthagininans sacrificing their children was scant and may have occurred in isolated instances during the final desperate days of the Third Punic ("Phonecian") War. Let us never forget that the Carthaginians were victims of genocide and therefore the victor's history-like that, to a lesser extent, of the Spanish over the Aztecs-should be viewed with skepticism.

I had the privilege of visiting the largely intact Hellenic classical remains of a temple to Baal in eastern Syrian outside the town of Palymra, where the fabled Queen Zenobia who fought the Romans circa 125 A.D. was from. I makes one wonder about the stories in the Old Testament demonizing the followers of Baal. It makes one think they may have been members of a different tribe whose "book" has been lost to history, perhaps by being destroyed by its enemies.

___________________________________

:Baal is an idea. One with a history. In its history, "Baal" has had different connotations in different cultures. They are all part of the'' context'' that an encyclopedia offers. [[Baal (demon)]] should be represented here in a brief version with a ''"Main article: [[Baal (demon)]]"'' heading. A fastidious editor would have set off the fiction stuff at [[Baal in market-directed culture]] or somesuch, rather than just deleting it, though I understand the temptation to erase that clutter. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 14:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC).

==About Beelzebub==
I was just wondering, just how much do we know about Beelzebub/Baal Zebub from modern scholars. I mean, as I have no scholarly works on Semitic mythology nor Baal worship, I'm kinda stuck with what I know from before.
I have noticed similarities between Beelzebub and Apollo, and there is also a Greek god called Myiagros, who is a fly-swatter god, but as far as I know, there is a meager amount of info on the god Beelzebub as we know... [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 18:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

== NPOV, not so much ==

"In the ancient world of the Persian Empire, from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea, worship of inanimate idols of wood and metal was being rejected in favor of the one living God."

Ummm, yeah. Maybe someone might want to clean this up? --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 18:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

== Spelling of the `ayin ==

Someone should go through this article and clean up the spelling to be more internally consistent on how to represent `ayin... there's ' (APOSTROPHE), &#8216; (LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), literal ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK again), ’ or &#8217 (RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), ` (GRAVE ACCENT) and even ʿ (MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING).

I'd prefer either ` or ‘, since '/’ more usually represents aleph/alif than ayin when transcribing Hebrew or Arabic, and since ʿ shows up really tiny in my fonts—but for the sake of consistency, I'd take any of the alternatives as long as the article was consistent. -- [[User:Pne|pne]] [[User talk:Pne|(talk)]] 18:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

== Confusion over the name ==

Is there a reason why both "Ba'al" and "Baal" are used in the same article, for apparently the same purpose? My belief was that the official name was "Ba'al" (and thus should be the article title as well). Any clarification is appreciated. -- [[User:Huntster|'''Huntster''']] [[User_talk:Huntster|'''T''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Huntster|'''@''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Huntster|'''C''']] 07:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

== Bishop picture - NPOV ==
NPOV problem - Picture of Baal priest. Also, photo history on the image shows peace symbol added later. [[User:Group29|Group29]] 15:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:Response : I did edit my picture, because I wanted some of the occultic sybols that are related to their practices to be represented....I don't want to "expose communisim" or the current anti Bush fanatics...I just am using this rendition to relay the source of this masonic symbol, borrowed from Nero. It is neutral and justifiable. (unsigned comment added by [[User:DrQuinn]] 19:44, 5 January 2007 )

::Could you please add a suitable explanation of the origin of the picture, who it is portraying, what symbols were added, and why? To me it looks like an icon of a middle ages Christian [[Saint]] who was a [[Bishop]] because of the [[Mitre]] and [[Bishop's Crook]], to which a ([[Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament]]) [[Peace symbol]], [[Spiral]], and [[Trefoil]] have been added out of context of the original subject. Not to mention how this might tie together in the article. Thanks [[User:Group29|Group29]] 19:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

DrQuinn/[[User:Melchizedekjesus|Melchizedekjesus]], Some web surfing reveals that there is a definite non-neutral bias in the picture. Also, that the black and white picture may actually be [[Dagon]] or a priest of Dagon, which even in the article is somewhat separated from the main subject. That picture should probably be removed from here and put in the Dagon article. It would appear that a connection is being drawn between the Mitre of a Bishop and the Fish headdress of the Dagon priest. The artist's rendition of the bishop with symbols should be removed. You should take up that discussion in the [[Talk:Mitre]] or [[Talk:Dagon]] page. [[User:Group29|Group29]] 20:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The priest looks more like a Led Zeppelin fan than a "priest in the time of Jezebel". Your fantasy-based photoshop is not only poorly executed, but an exercise in fiction. DELETE DELETE DELETE! (unsigned comment from 69.235.0.1 added 00:04, 7 January 2007 )

I removed the NPOV template [[User:Group29|Group29]] 21:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

* I've seen sources that say the peace symbol origionally stood for destruction... the 'trinity symbol' can either be christian, or could mean 666 or a different trinity altogether (wingedsundisk/whatnot) and the masons like to use 'g' alot in symbols that represent their ownership/affiliation.. which stands for 'generative principle' the top of the staff, and the circle (is a g in there if you flip it backwards..) always look to context in symbols.. i dont think there's enough to 100% place it as a symbol of masonry/whatnot.. but i'd be about 50% leaning towards it. masons throw 'g's on everything - the gFord motor company is the best example. knights templar like 13's (budweiser cap logo) - dont believe that this is satan's world? checkout symbology yo ;) - jbk
when it comes to symbols - look to what the author meant.

==Not a genuine alternative==
I moved this antiquated text here: ''"An alternate interpretation is that this was a sun god. Sacrifices would be left in the sun, and eventually teem with flies and maggots. At time this seemed to be a miraculous manifestation of [[spontaneous generation]]. Thus, the flies would be something like avatars or servants of the sun god."'' Baal is not a sungod, for a start: the rest is personal fantasy. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 15:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[[User:X86bsdunix|X86bsdunix]] 01:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Baal

2007-03-20T01:09:19Z

X86bsdunix: Non-religious usage of Ba`al

Talk:Baal

2007-03-20T01:08:29Z

X86bsdunix: /* Non-religious usage of Ba`al */

Talk:Baal

2007-03-20T01:07:07Z

X86bsdunix: Non-religious usage of Ba`al

==References Needed==

Could the research here be better documented? I think that we are ignoring geography here. Don't the people of the region from Baal came know his history? I see a verbal mythology growing here that doesn't regard history well enough. I think we can be sure that the Baal of the Bible is not the Beelzebub which was known as Satan. Not every adversary of Yahweh is Satan. Please distinguish origins in written works and tablets and find a reference that will not be disputed easily, if you can. I appreciate that the story of Baal also includes contemporary perceptions, but perhaps we are ignoring textbooks on the subject. ;)
----
Oops. ''Dispraise'' was not a neologism. Yet my dictionary doesn't list etymology or whether the word has become anachronistic. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 23:24 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

:"Dispraise" is an excellent word. It doesn't carry the baggage of "condemn." I have given up "contemn" as people no longer understand it. Words may become obsolete but never anachronistic. The ''use'' of a word may be an anachronism though. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 01:53, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

----
I might change "Canaanite" to "Ancient Syrian" for a few reasons. ''Canaanite'' is a biblical term and suggests that the source of the entry is the Bible. However, most of the material comes from [[Ugarit]]. Also, ''Canaan'' usually implies the territory between biblical Judea and the sea. However, Ba'al was worshipped in a much wider area throughout ancient Syria (particularly the west, I think). Therefore, I find "Ancient Syrian" less ambiguous.--[[User:Administer|Administer]] 01:30, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
:It's always best to check some good archaeology sites and go with their flow, without deciding in the comfort of your own home. [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 01:53, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
It depends on their specialty: biblical studies on one hand or Ugaritic language, ancient Middle Eastern disciplines, and comparative religion on the other. I'll leave it "Canaanite" for now, since that may be more meaningful to the audience most likely interested in the topic.--[[User:Administer|Administer]] 03:56, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

First of all, Canaanite is not just a Biblical term, and it's usage here is, in my opinion, more correct than the majority of the contents of the article itself. It seems to me that the majority of the article does in fact have the Bible as the main source. Furthermore, it uses the Bible in a way that is inconsistent with the findings of Bible critics as well as archaeology. But I don't have all the sources together right now to lay out a complete list of inaccuracies. However, at this point I'd like to express interest in seeing a section that addresses the traits of Ba'al that both El and Elohim of the Israelites co-opted in later stages.

On to the main point of this entry; I think "Canaanite" works better than "Ancient Syrian" since it is more correct of a term. "Ancient Syrian" is based on a modern geo-political classification that is mostly irrelevant to biblical studies. On the otherhand, "Canaanite" is no more correct than "Amorite" since the two are more or less synonymous in the Bible. Under the present circumstances it would be optimal to be able to use both, but that would be cumbersome and, when the article meets higher standards, incorrect. Another possibility would be "pre-Israelite", but the problem with this here is that the Israelites worship Ba'al as well. The only other thing that I can think of would be "Northwestern-Semitic". The usefulness of this term is that it describes who worshiped Ba'al.

You say,'''Canaan'' usually implies the territory between biblical Judea and the sea' To my understanding, that is misleading. Rather, they lived from northern Palestine, along the sea, between the hills, and into Central modern day Syria. This can be shown in different geographical references throughout the Hebrew Bible as well as the findings of archaeologists. I already addressed the problem with "Ancient Syria" as well as the futility of using the terms "Amorite" and "Canaanite" interchangeably. The case with Ba'al is that he has a very long history [dates needed] - and this is another point that needs to be addressed in the article - and was shared and worshipped by several peoples and in several areas. Thus a very general, yet ethnically and historically correct description is preferred. Northwestern-Semitic accomplishes the former, but is still insufficient as regards the latter. Thus, my vote is in for keeping with the status quo, until more a more suitable replacement can be found. Comments? Criticisms? For references on defining Canaanite, see A History of Isreal by John Bright, fourth edition p 116. [[User:hayadel|hayadel]]

----

==''Ba‘al'' as a divine title in Israel and Judah==
I've added the following quote from Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary to this section.
At first the name Baal was used by the Jews for their
God without discrimination, but as the struggle between
the two religions developed, the name Baal was given up
in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like
Jerubbaal were changed to Jerubbesheth.

I think it says very succinctly almost everything the section says. However, it's still short enough to quote without infringing on the copyright.

I also think that it is from a source that is likely to be trusted by people with a religious point of view and this will help to make it clear that what is being described in this section is not an attempt to somehow undermine Judiasm and Christianity (by equating YaHWeH with Baal), but is simply an accepted fact regarding the evolution of the usage of the term ''baal'' in Hebrew.--[[User:Heathcliff|Heathcliff]] 01:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

For a critic of the idea that Baal was a demon, see below:

Ba’al Worship: The Testimony of Scripture
Alice C. Linsley

Are El and Baal different names for the same God or are these different Gods? Though religious practices associated with Baal are clearly condemned, there is evidence that these names were used interchangeably to speak of the Creator who is sovereign over all the earth, whose emblem in the ancient cosmology was the sun. El/Baal gave light and life to the whole earth and established maleness and femaleness for his purposes. The east represented God’s arousal and the west the bridal chamber. This symbolism continues to this day in Jewish mysticism. It is also the basis for the Christian expectation of the return of the Christ to take his bride, the Church.

In the religion of the Paleo-Dominion submission to El or Baal as Master was the mark of righteousness. The righteous man sought to be a good servant to the Master, fulfilling all that he perceived to be required by his God. In this context submission and humility constituted faithfulness. God was very high over the earth, the ruler of all things. God was Master. Those who set themselves up as high and mighty risked God’s wrath since the One God has no match. This is way Lamech is remembered a braggart who bragged to his wives Adah (Dawn) and T-zillah (Dust) that he had killed a man. Lamech’s sin isn’t simply his killing of another (for we do not know the circumstances of that killing), but that he had set himself as an equal to God.

In the religion of the Paleo-Dominion El or Baal was represented by the sun. Later the sun was represented as El’s chariot; thus the solar chariots at the temple that were destroyed by King Josiah in his attempt to eradicate the worship of Baal (II Kings 23:10-12). In this cosmology God was viewed as having two wives, one in the east and a second in the west. Thus by calling his wives Dawn and Dust, Lamech claims equality with God. Other afro-asiatic chiefs of Paleo-Dominion maintained two wives in separate households on a north-south axis as a sign of respect and submission to El or Baal. Thus Abraham maintained Sarah in Hebron and Keturah in Beersheba. There is evidence also that Kayin (Cain) maintained a wife in Nok (Nod) and another in Kano, again on a north-south axis.

Both “el” and “ba’al” mean power or strength, often rendered “master.” Baal is said to have had a wife named El-issa, which in Hebrew means the wife/female of El. The name El appears over 250 times in the Old Testament. The name Baal appears less often and is almost always presented in a negative light because the prophets and priests of Yahweh sought to eradicate the evil practices that developed logically from the ancient cosmology as a result of man’s sinful nature.

Consider some of the names for God, found in these constructs:

El-elyon: the most high God,El-shaddi: the all sufficient God;
El-olam: The everlasting God, el-echad: The One God, El- hanne’eman: The faithful God; El-tsaddik: The righteous God,
El-emet: The God of truth or the reliable God; Immanu-el: God with us

The name “Baal” appears in constructs with more earthy associations, suggesting that teh fous shifted from the holy otherness of El/Baal to the creature and creaturely.

Baal-berith: The God of the covenant,Baal-hammon: The God of fertility, Baal-shamam: The God who guards, Baal-gad: the God of good fortune, Baal-shalishah: The God of three; Baal-tamar: The God of the palm (The date palm was a symbol of fertility.) Baal-peor: The God of the opening/hole (female reproductive organ); and Baal-zephon: The God of the north.

Regading this last construt, Baal's cult seems to have its fullst expression among the Phoenicians in the north, and Carthage in North Africa was a major enter for child sacrifice to Baal up to about 300 B.C. This is significant because the sacrifice of Isaac (Genesis 22) takes place after Abraham went to live among the Philistines (Phoenicians) “for a long time.” (Genesis 21:34)

Further, there are many names that incorporate El or Baal, and the people who held these names are all descendents of Noah and sometimes closely related.

Genesis 4:18 Mehuja-el (who proclaims God);
Genesis 5:12 Mahalal-el (the Blessed God);
Genesis 16:11 Ishma-el (God hears);
Genesis 32:28 Isra-el (He prevails/struggles with God);
Numbers 1:6 Shelumi-el (God is my perfection or peace);
Numbers 1:9 El-iab (God is father);
Numbers 1:10 El-ishama (God guards);
Numbers 1:10 Gamali-el (Recompense of God or camel of God);
Numbers 1:13 Pagi-el (prevention or prayer of God);
Numbers 1:15 El-iasaph (God increases);
Numbers 3:19 Uzzi-el (God’s strength);
Numbers 10:29 Reu-el (God’s friend;)
Numbers 11:26 El-dad (favored of God);
Numbers 13:12 Ammi-el (God’s people);
Numbers 16:37 El-eazar (God is my help);
Numbers 26:45 Malki-el (God is king);
Samuel Samu-el (heard/asked of God)

There are also a few descendents of Noah named for Baal. Two are especially significant: Saul’s son, Ishbaal and the King of Sidon, Ethbaal.

II Samuel 2:12 Ish-baal (God saves)

Ishbaal’s name was changed to Ishbosheth, meaning “man of shame.” This is an editorial gloss showing that those who worshipped Yahweh stood against the worship practices associated with Baal.

I Kings 16:31 Eth-baal (Strength of Baal)

Ethbaal was the King of Sidon and the father of Jezebel. Ethbaal was not simply a king. He also was the high priest of Baal who sought to spread the worship of Baal throughout the ancient Near East from Tyre, his capital city. His daughter followed in her father’s footsteps when she attempted to wipe out the prophets of Yahweh, reversing the gains made by Josiah, the Reformer.

The worship of Baal represents a falling away from true worship and the cult of Baal came under strong criticism from the prophets, especially Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:8:3). King Josiah is praised in II Kings 23 for taking action to eradicate Baal worship in Israel. Hosea 2:16-17 says: “In that day,” declares the Lord, “you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer all me my ‘baal.’ I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.”

Now we may ask why Baal worship was so forcefully opposed by the prophets and the priests loyal to Yahweh. Here are some reasons:

· Child sacrifice
· Sacred prostitution
· The high places held phallic symbols (“lingum” in the Vedic tradition. Called “pillars” in the Bible.)
· Probably also symbols of the female reproductive organ (“yoni” in Vedic tradition. Called “peor” in the Bible.)

Under the influence of the rising power of Phoenicia, the worship of El became corrupt. Baal worship constituted idolatry because it focused on reproduction, fertility rites and sexual activity, substituting these for worship of the Holy God. Children were “offered back” to Baal (possibly still born or dead infants) with the petition to give a replacement child. Animals were sacrificed to Baal also, but when circumstances were desperate first-born sons were sacrificed as in the case of the king of Moab (II Kings 3:27).

In Jeremiah 7:30-31, the prophet declares God’s word against this practice:

“The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their horrors in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn theirs sons and daughters in the fire: something I never commanded, nor did it even enter my mind.”

Does this mean that those who held to the worship of El as he revealed himself to the Patriarchs, practiced a false religion? Not necessarily. The ancient cosmology of El being sovereign over all the earth, whose emblem was the sun, prevails among the righteous. One of the greatest of Israel’s prophets proclaimed this understanding. Amos praises God, saying: “For look! He it is who forges the mountains, creates the wind, who reveals his mind to humankind, who makes the dawn turn to darkness and strides on the heights of the world: Yahweh, God Sabaoth, is his name.” (Amos 4: 13)

At issue is not the cosmology held by the worshippers of El or Baal. At issue is the degradation of the holy places through the practices of sacred prostitution and child sacrifice. These practices were condemned by the prophets and the offering of sacrifices outside of the temple was forbidden by the priests of Yahweh. The corrective measures of God through the prophets and priests set a standard for holiness and worship that was far above that of the majority of people living at that time in the land of Canaan. Yet, it is clear that the ancient cosmology persisted and continues to this day, most prominently in Islam.

==No comment==
Moved here without further comment: " King [[Offa]] was Baal revivalist and designed his border with Wales along the twelve cycles of the original pagan Baal. Offa was probably converted to Ballism by a rogue Egyptian Shamasi called Erony Bola Oacs who preached the way of the goat throughout Mercia and post [[Druidic]] Gwynedd." --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 22:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

==Rewrite opening==
The section that reads "but they were not used in reference between a superior and an inferior or of a master to a slave." needs to be re-written; I don't understand it, but I don't know exactly what should be written there. --[[User:Slashme|Slashme]] 09:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Big merge ==

Having a seperate Ba'al article for those researching the Ba'al of Carthage / Phoenicians or demon ba'al unfairly cuts these people off from the primary, better source of information on the Semetic god ba'al, which is in this article. So I've taken a lot of time to merge the Ba'al of Carthage article and the demon ba'al article with this article, while preserving all previous information, including on the non-religious Hebrew word ba'al.

Thank you!

Nick

Mergist

[[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 13:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

:The historical development is not set out in orderly enough fashion, perhaps. At any rate, a recent editor blanked blocks of text, saying "Besides the name and the god Baal position as a "pagan" god, there is no point in leading people to believe that they are synomymous". Perhaps the article needs to lead the reader more obviously and emphatically through the history of "Baal". History of ideas is the last kind of history one comes to understand. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 11:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

== Revert war over demon baal ==

Satanael: respectfully, deleting 99% of the Baal demon section AGAIN is inappropriate. They're very related. The Demon ''originated'' from the god! How can you say it is not related and just delete it? There is no claim they are "synonomous," this is clear. But this is clearly related and worthy of inclusion.

I reverted it...AGAIN!

Having no detail on the demon Ba'al in the main Ba'al article is bad for those researching the demon Ba'al because it unfairly cuts these people off from the primary, better source of information on the origins of ba'al. I've taken a lot of time to compile the Ba'al of Carthage article and the demon ba'al article with this article, while preserving all previous information, including on the non-religious Hebrew word ba'al. Please don't delete huge blocks of text.

Wetman: if you can think of a better way to integrate this text, please help :)

[[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 23:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

:It reads well to me, but we have at least one reader who doesn't get the drift... --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 10:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

::Excuse me, "doesn't get the drift." First of all, this article is about the god Baal, not the demon. The demon has little similarity with the god except for the name and the fact that Baal is a pagan god. Second of all, you haven't just put the info regarding the demon into the article, you added everything, including accounts in fiction, which has little relevancy to THE GOD BAAL.
::Second, you specifically made them synonymous by redirecting the [[Baal (demon)]] article to this article.
::Third, I don't see the point in adding Beelzebub into this article as well. Even though Beelzebub is one of the many Baal variants, so is Baal Phegor and Baal Berith, but there would be no reason to add them as well, just for the fact that they originally correspond to Baal.
::However, have it your way. Just for the record, you didn't "win" anything, I just prefer to have allies rather than adversaries. Second of all, if further info is added to the [[Baal (demon)]] or the [[Beelzebub]] article, don't add it here as well, as there is a reason for why those are headed as "main articles".
::Finally, I want to point out that after you have read and replied to this, I will remove the "Fictional accounts of the demon Baal" section, as it is pointless to have it here. If people want it, they can read it in the "Baal (demon)" article. And preferably, I'll remove the Beelzebub info as well, as there is little reason to keep it here, just because he originates from Baal. [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 12:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:::You can remove the "Baal in fiction" section, but please do not remove Beelzebub. The main variants of Baal should be in this article, the major variants and development of Ba'al is very relevent to anyone studying Ba'al and must remain. [[User:NickDupree|Nick]] 13:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

:Done it. :) [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 14:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
_____________________________________________

A book on archeology I read stated that the evidence of Carthagininans sacrificing their children was scant and may have occurred in isolated instances during the final desperate days of the Third Punic ("Phonecian") War. Let us never forget that the Carthaginians were victims of genocide and therefore the victor's history-like that, to a lesser extent, of the Spanish over the Aztecs-should be viewed with skepticism.

I had the privilege of visiting the largely intact Hellenic classical remains of a temple to Baal in eastern Syrian outside the town of Palymra, where the fabled Queen Zenobia who fought the Romans circa 125 A.D. was from. I makes one wonder about the stories in the Old Testament demonizing the followers of Baal. It makes one think they may have been members of a different tribe whose "book" has been lost to history, perhaps by being destroyed by its enemies.

___________________________________

:Baal is an idea. One with a history. In its history, "Baal" has had different connotations in different cultures. They are all part of the'' context'' that an encyclopedia offers. [[Baal (demon)]] should be represented here in a brief version with a ''"Main article: [[Baal (demon)]]"'' heading. A fastidious editor would have set off the fiction stuff at [[Baal in market-directed culture]] or somesuch, rather than just deleting it, though I understand the temptation to erase that clutter. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 14:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC).

==About Beelzebub==
I was just wondering, just how much do we know about Beelzebub/Baal Zebub from modern scholars. I mean, as I have no scholarly works on Semitic mythology nor Baal worship, I'm kinda stuck with what I know from before.
I have noticed similarities between Beelzebub and Apollo, and there is also a Greek god called Myiagros, who is a fly-swatter god, but as far as I know, there is a meager amount of info on the god Beelzebub as we know... [[User:Satanael|Satanael]] 18:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

== NPOV, not so much ==

"In the ancient world of the Persian Empire, from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea, worship of inanimate idols of wood and metal was being rejected in favor of the one living God."

Ummm, yeah. Maybe someone might want to clean this up? --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 18:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

== Spelling of the `ayin ==

Someone should go through this article and clean up the spelling to be more internally consistent on how to represent `ayin... there's ' (APOSTROPHE), &#8216; (LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), literal ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK again), ’ or &#8217 (RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), ` (GRAVE ACCENT) and even ʿ (MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING).

I'd prefer either ` or ‘, since '/’ more usually represents aleph/alif than ayin when transcribing Hebrew or Arabic, and since ʿ shows up really tiny in my fonts—but for the sake of consistency, I'd take any of the alternatives as long as the article was consistent. -- [[User:Pne|pne]] [[User talk:Pne|(talk)]] 18:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

== Confusion over the name ==

Is there a reason why both "Ba'al" and "Baal" are used in the same article, for apparently the same purpose? My belief was that the official name was "Ba'al" (and thus should be the article title as well). Any clarification is appreciated. -- [[User:Huntster|'''Huntster''']] [[User_talk:Huntster|'''T''']] • [[Special:Emailuser/Huntster|'''@''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Huntster|'''C''']] 07:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

== Bishop picture - NPOV ==
NPOV problem - Picture of Baal priest. Also, photo history on the image shows peace symbol added later. [[User:Group29|Group29]] 15:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:Response : I did edit my picture, because I wanted some of the occultic sybols that are related to their practices to be represented....I don't want to "expose communisim" or the current anti Bush fanatics...I just am using this rendition to relay the source of this masonic symbol, borrowed from Nero. It is neutral and justifiable. (unsigned comment added by [[User:DrQuinn]] 19:44, 5 January 2007 )

::Could you please add a suitable explanation of the origin of the picture, who it is portraying, what symbols were added, and why? To me it looks like an icon of a middle ages Christian [[Saint]] who was a [[Bishop]] because of the [[Mitre]] and [[Bishop's Crook]], to which a ([[Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament]]) [[Peace symbol]], [[Spiral]], and [[Trefoil]] have been added out of context of the original subject. Not to mention how this might tie together in the article. Thanks [[User:Group29|Group29]] 19:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

DrQuinn/[[User:Melchizedekjesus|Melchizedekjesus]], Some web surfing reveals that there is a definite non-neutral bias in the picture. Also, that the black and white picture may actually be [[Dagon]] or a priest of Dagon, which even in the article is somewhat separated from the main subject. That picture should probably be removed from here and put in the Dagon article. It would appear that a connection is being drawn between the Mitre of a Bishop and the Fish headdress of the Dagon priest. The artist's rendition of the bishop with symbols should be removed. You should take up that discussion in the [[Talk:Mitre]] or [[Talk:Dagon]] page. [[User:Group29|Group29]] 20:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The priest looks more like a Led Zeppelin fan than a "priest in the time of Jezebel". Your fantasy-based photoshop is not only poorly executed, but an exercise in fiction. DELETE DELETE DELETE! (unsigned comment from 69.235.0.1 added 00:04, 7 January 2007 )

I removed the NPOV template [[User:Group29|Group29]] 21:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

* I've seen sources that say the peace symbol origionally stood for destruction... the 'trinity symbol' can either be christian, or could mean 666 or a different trinity altogether (wingedsundisk/whatnot) and the masons like to use 'g' alot in symbols that represent their ownership/affiliation.. which stands for 'generative principle' the top of the staff, and the circle (is a g in there if you flip it backwards..) always look to context in symbols.. i dont think there's enough to 100% place it as a symbol of masonry/whatnot.. but i'd be about 50% leaning towards it. masons throw 'g's on everything - the gFord motor company is the best example. knights templar like 13's (budweiser cap logo) - dont believe that this is satan's world? checkout symbology yo ;) - jbk
when it comes to symbols - look to what the author meant.

==Not a genuine alternative==
I moved this antiquated text here: ''"An alternate interpretation is that this was a sun god. Sacrifices would be left in the sun, and eventually teem with flies and maggots. At time this seemed to be a miraculous manifestation of [[spontaneous generation]]. Thus, the flies would be something like avatars or servants of the sun god."'' Baal is not a sungod, for a start: the rest is personal fantasy. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 15:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

== Non-religious usage of Ba`al ==

Also, Baal was a Goa'uld in the series of Stargate Sg-1. From Season 6-10.

While I understand that the section is for the non-religious usage of Ba'al, this seems too far off topic and out of place. Maybe a cultural references section for the Ba'al article - with this expanded and other references?

[[User:X86bsdunix|X86bsdunix]] 01:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

User:X86bsdunix

2007-02-07T02:50:20Z

X86bsdunix: ←Blanked the page

User:X86bsdunix

2007-02-07T02:49:48Z

X86bsdunix: ←Created page with '{{userboxtop | toptext = About x86bsdunix}} {{User:MiraLuka/Userboxes/User male}} <center>__________________________</center> <center>'''x86bsdunix on Wikipedia...'

{{userboxtop | toptext = About x86bsdunix}}
{{User:MiraLuka/Userboxes/User male}}
<center>__________________________</center> 
<center>'''x86bsdunix on Wikipedia'''</center>

'''A little about me''' 
I am a young man in his early 20's with a primary interest in [[Computer|computers]], soon to be divorced (w00t!) and a dispatcher for a nationwide towing assosciation. I live in [[Louisville, Kentucky|Louisville]].

I am a geek, I run [[FreeBSD]] on my network servers and my personal computers.

User talk:Lahiru k

2006-12-20T03:34:20Z

X86bsdunix:

<div style="padding: 3px; text-align: left; background-color: #F5F5F5;">

{{usertalkpage}}

{{User:Lahiru k/RCPatrolMistakes}}

<div class="plainlinks" style="background-color: #808080; border: 1px solid #000066; width: {{{width|}}}; color: {{{color|black}}}; font-weight: bold; margin: 2em 0 1em; padding: .5em 1em; vertical-align: middle; clear: both;"><center>To contact me, please leave me a [{{fullurl:{{ns:3}}:{{PAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&section=new}} new message] or [[Special:Emailuser/Lahiru k| email me]].</center></div>

{{Archive box|*[[/Archive 1|29 August 2006 - 15 November 2006]]
*[[/Archive 2|19 November 2006 - 16 December 2006]]}}

== User talk:24.4.231.98 ==

Hello, how are you keeping tabs on my user page? I thot it was a private page. I was editing using my IP address because I wanted it logged for future reference and easy access. I don't understand why another user is monitoring my user pages.[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 06:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not monitoring your user page but I was monitoring recent IP edits[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lahiru_k]. Pleas log-in next time other wise [[WP:RCP|recent changes patroller]]s will take those as vandalism. [[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 06:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I see. I guess none of the pages are really private. Well, thanks for patroling. No vandalism going on, I just wanted my IP logged for my own use. Thanks. <nowiki>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</nowiki>[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 06:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Looks like someone was vandalizing THIS page tho... But someone else fixed them before I could... thanks {{unsign|Mactographer}}

:Yep, thats called [[WP:RCP]] {{Smiley|1}} [[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 06:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

== I didn't ==
I didn't remove anything, merely moved a sentence in brackets to the right spot, and deleted an apostrophe that wasn't needed. I would appreciate not being talked to like I am a child. Thank you.{{unsign|69.159.37.60}}

:Yeah it was a mistake. Thank you for letting me know. Ooh before leaving, that message, I didn't create that it was a template. See [[Template:TestTemplates]]. Happy editing!!! --[[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 07:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

== Sorry ==
Sorry. I accidentally rollbacked your RV which I thought was vandalism. Again sorry. '''[[User:culverin|Culv]][[User:culverin/EA|e]][[User:culverin|rin]][[Special:Random|?]]''' '''[[User_talk:Culverin|Talk]]''' 07:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Oh just forget it pal. We humans are dedicated to do mistakes. {{Smiley2|10}} Happy editing!!! [[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 07:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

== Hello==
Hello, fellow Wikipedian. I write in regards to the proposal you may have made that The Open Design Community be deleted from Wikipedia. I agree with you but if you takes some time you will find that while TODC is a neew site, only being up for two weeks, it has had around 9,000 unique visitors and around 100,000 page views. TODC is a great site that is worthy of being on Wikipedia. It is actually the third generation in the OSWD line (marked by when the community reformed to create a new site).

The bottom line is TODC is a strong community who is worthy of being in Wikipedia. I am going to try to add more to the entry soon. {{unsign|Megajames}}

:Hi there, you did a great job by starting [[The Open Design Community]] article {{Smiley|1}}. But [[User:Melchoir|Melchoir]] says its violating Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines|guideline]] [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]]. Don't be afraid about that. First read [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]] well and try to find in article where it seems violating, or ask for help directly from [[User:Melchoir|Melchoir]]. I'm pretty sure that he may help you because he is an [[Wikipedia:Administrators|Administrator]]. Good luck!!! --[[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 08:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

== Different IP? ==

Regarding [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=94849964 this report] at AIV, perhaps you meant a different vandal IP? This IP doesn't have anything on talk.--[[User:Kchase02|Kchase]] [[User_talk:Kchase02|T]] 07:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Yeah, It was a mistake. He was keep vandalizing the [[The Law & Order Franchise]] article. I thought he was already warned. I hope you guys will forgive me. {{Smiley2|15}} [[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 07:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

No sweat, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some prolific IP vandal on the loose that you meant to report and really needed it blocked. Keep reporting to AIV. The occasional misfire happens to the best of us.--[[User:Kchase02|Kchase]] [[User_talk:Kchase02|T]] 07:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Thank you. {{Smiley2|12}} [[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 07:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:OK, I gave it a shot by removing the nowiki tags in your monobook.js file. Let me know how it goes.--[[User:Kchase02|Kchase]] [[User_talk:Kchase02|T]] 19:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Huh, I don't know what's wrong. I'd try dropping a line at [[WP:VPA]], or [[WP:HD|the help desk]] to see if a more technically inclined user can figure it out. Alternatively, ask for help on [[WP:IRC|IRC]]. They're usually just hanging around chatting anyway. Hope the problem gets solved. Good luck![[User:Kchase02|Kchase]] [[User_talk:Kchase02|T]] 19:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

==Needlessly removing content?==

Define "needlessly". I removed biased quotes from an article that are clearly POV, replacing them with more neutral wording. Isn't this what Wikipedia is about? Also, your warning states that I have been warned about this before...nope.[[User:207.216.49.234|207.216.49.234]] 09:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Yeah I know that Wikipedia is full of bias and even I had to face that problem. But when you do any edits in wikipedia next time, please justify it by adding edit [[Help:Edit summary|summery]]. Other wise [[WP:RCP|vandal reverters]] like me may take those constructive edits as [[WP:vandalism|vandalism]]. Happy editing!!! --[[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 10:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

::Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification![[User:207.216.49.234|207.216.49.234]] 10:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

NVM figured it out, sorry

== Great Job ==

You have done a great job of fighting vandalism here at wikipedia. By the way if you ever have a dispute with someone i can helpm out, I am a member of AMA.--[[User:Sir james paul|Sir james paul]] 12:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
== Copyright problems with Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG ==
<div style="padding:5px; background-color:#E1F1DE;"> An image that you uploaded, [[: Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG]], has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Copyright problems]] because it is a suspected copyright violation. Please look there if you know that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), and then provide the necessary information there and on its [[: Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG|page]], if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.  </div> [[User:Ccwaters|ccwaters]] 19:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
== Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG listed for deletion ==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, [[:Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG]], has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 December 18#Image:Kokilai sat pic.JPG|Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion]]. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. — [[User:Ccwaters|ccwaters]] 19:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) [[User:Ccwaters|ccwaters]] 19:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

:It's Copyrighted Google. Check out [http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/]. [[User:Ccwaters|ccwaters]] 19:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

== [[Doughboy (character)]] ==

I didn't remove content, I added it. The little I removed was negligible. Check it again and add stuff back if you want, but there's no need to do a total rv. Thank you.
[[User:Tommythegun|Tommythegun]] 19 December 2006 07:31 (UTC)

:When you do any edits in wikipedia next time, please justify it by adding edit [[Help:Edit summary|summery]]. Other wise [[WP:RCP|vandal reverters]] like me may take those constructive edits as [[WP:vandalism|vandalism]]. Happy editing!!! --[[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 07:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Keep up the good work. [[User:Tommythegun|Tommythegun]] 19 December 2006 07:52 (UTC)

== Why ==

why do you keep undoing my edits{{unsign|128.113.228.25}}

:Because you didn't provide sufficient edit summary s and these edits are looks like obvious [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Will_Smith&diff=prev&oldid=95270135][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Will_Smith&diff=prev&oldid=95270363][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Will_Smith&diff=prev&oldid=95270496] --[[User:Lahiru_k|'''♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪''']] [[User talk:Lahiru_k|Walkie-talkie]] 08:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

== Goldberg ==

Thanks, I guess, um can someone please lock the article me and a few other users had to edit that crap out for two days already and someone keeps putting back in blantanly false claims that Goldberg signed with WWE.--[[User:24.184.169.37|24.184.169.37]] 16:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

== Smile ==

<div style="float:center;border-style:solid;border-color:blue;background-color:AliceBlue;border-width:1px;text-align:left;padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">[[Image:Face-smile-big.svg|left|60px]]

{{{1|[[User:Sir james paul|Sir james paul]]}}} has smiled at you! Smiles promote [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{tls|smile}}, {{tls|smile2}} or {{tls|smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing! {{{2|}}}
</div>

== Needlessly Removed? ==

I was told that I needlessly removed content from the Need For Speed Underground 2 game, when in fact I removed content that was needless. It was a poorly written game type for a game when in fact it doesn't even exist in the game. I completely understand why you would think that if you have not played it. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:MikeFez|MikeFez]] ([[User talk:MikeFez|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MikeFez|contribs]]) 02:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Hi,

Here is a link to the message I recieved from you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:74.130.127.250&redirect=no]

I just want to let you know, I didnt mean to erase anything and I thought I looked over it before I posted it. Sorry, just a wiki newbie mistake.

I just wanted to add the actor's birth year, which I found via Imdb.

Thanks