https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=SungodtempleWikipedia - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T10:59:42ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.42.0-wmf.24https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:KirekWiki&diff=1215776711User talk:KirekWiki2024-03-27T01:37:34Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:OpenELA|OpenELA]] (March 27) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by Sungodtemple were:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This draft's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are: <br /><br />
* ''[[WP:Notability#General notability guideline|in-depth]]'' (not just passing mentions about the subject)<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:No original research#Secondary|''secondary'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|''independent'']] of the subject <br /><br />
Make sure you add references that meet these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission does not appear to be written in [[Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Information style and tone|the formal tone expected of an encyclopedia article]]. Entries should be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and should refer to a range of [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent, reliable, published sources]]. Please rewrite your submission in a more encyclopedic format. Please make sure to avoid [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Puffery|peacock terms]] that promote the subject.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=Source #1 is [[WP:IS|non-independent]], source #2 doesn't mention OpenELA. Not notable... yet.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:OpenELA]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:OpenELA '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:OpenELA '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''KirekWiki'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:OpenELA&diff=1215776710Draft:OpenELA2024-03-27T01:37:33Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: nn - Submission is about a topic not yet shown to meet general notability guidelines (be more specific if possible) and npov - Submission is not written in a formal, neutral encyclopedic tone (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|nn|u=KirekWiki|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240327013733|reason2=npov|ts=20240326215006}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
<br />
{{AFC comment|1=Source #1 is [[WP:IS|non-independent]], source #2 doesn't mention OpenELA. Not notable... yet. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
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----<br />
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{{Short description|A short intro to OpenELA}}<br />
{{Draft topics|software|computing|technology}}<br />
{{AfC topic|other}}<br />
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[https://openela.org/ OpenELA] is a trade association formed <ref>{{Cite web |last=Su |first=Honglin |date=November 2, 2023 |title=Keep Linux Open and Free - OpenELA Marks Major Milestones in Governance and Code Availability |url=https://blogs.oracle.com/linux/post/openela-marks-major-milestones-in-governance-and-code-availability |url-status=live}}</ref>by [[Oracle Linux|Oracle]], [https://ciq.com CiQ] and [[SUSE]] to make sure that Enterprise linux source code is available to the Linux community. It is not a fork, but a response to [[Red Hat|RedHat]] putting Enterprise Linux source code behind a paywall <ref>{{Cite web |last=Kennedy |first=Patrick |date=2023-06-23 |title=IBM Red Hat Puts RHEL Source Behind Paywall |url=https://www.servethehome.com/ibm-red-hat-puts-rhel-source-behind-paywall/ |access-date=2024-03-26 |website=ServeTheHome |language=en-US}}</ref>and legal agreement that no longer allows users to freely distribute the source code. OpenELA is not a [[Linux distribution|Linux Distribution]], but is intended as a location for all the source code to build an Enterprise Linux system.<br />
<br />
== Github ==<br />
<br />
All of OpenELA's source code can be downloaded freely form their [https://github.com/orgs/openela-main/repositories github site] No login is required.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5)&diff=1215490530MasterChef South Africa (season 5)2024-03-25T13:12:20Z<p>Sungodtemple: grammar</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Infobox television season<br />
| bg_colour = #9D2933<br />
| season_number = 5<br />
| module1 = {{Infobox reality competition season<br />
| judges = {{Plainlist|<br />
*Zola Nene<br />
*Gregory Czarnecki<br />
*Katlego Mlambo<br />
}}<br />
| num_contestants = 20<br />
| winner = TBA<br />
| runner_up = TBA<br />
| location = [[Cape Town]]<br />
}}<br />
| num_episodes = TBA<br />
| network = [[SABC 3]]<br />
| first_aired = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
| prev_season = [[MasterChef South Africa (season 4)|Season 4]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The fifth season of ''[[MasterChef South Africa]]'' was announced on 17 January 2024 and will premiere 22 June 2024 on [[SABC 3]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Martin |first=Celeste |title=MasterChef South Africa returns for season 5! |url=https://www.ewn.co.za/2024/01/17/masterchef-south-africa-returns-for-season-5 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=EWN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
Returning judges for this season include Zola Nene and Justine Drake. They will be joined by new judge Katlego Mlambo.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Maako |first=Keitumetse |title='Being a MasterChef judge was on my bucket list': Meet S5's hunky addition, Katlego Mlambo |url=https://www.news24.com/life/arts-and-entertainment/tv/being-a-masterchef-judge-was-on-my-bucket-list-meet-s5s-hunky-addition-katlego-mlambo-20240311-2 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=Life |language=en-US}}</ref> Filming will take place from 29 April – 8 June 2024 in [[Cape Town]]. <ref>{{Cite web |title=FAQs |url=https://masterchefsa.tv/faqs/ |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=MasterChef SA |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Contestants ==<br />
<br />
=== Top 20 ===<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:center"<br />
|+<br />
!Contestant<br />
!Age<br />
!Occupation<br />
!Hometown<br />
!Episode of Elimination<br />
!Place Finished<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Elimination Table ==<br />
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center; font-size: 8pt"<br />
! rowspan="2" |Place<br />
! rowspan="2" |Contestant<br />
! colspan="15" |Episode<br />
|-<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
: {{Color box|gold|border=darkgray}} (WINNER) This chef won the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|silver|border=darkgray}} (RUNNER-UP) This chef received second place in the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|limegreen|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef won the individual challenge ('''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''').<br />
: {{Color box|#959FFD|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef was on the winning team in the '''Team Challenge''' and was safe from the Pressure Test.<br />
: {{Color box|cornflowerblue|border=darkgray}} (HIGH) The chef was one of the top entries in the '''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''' but didn't win.<br />
: {{Color box|hotpink|border=darkgray}} (CC) The chef received the advantage of competing against a celebrity chef in this challenge. If they won, they advanced farther on in the competition, skipping a number of challenges. The chef could not be eliminated after this challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|violet}} (IMM) The chef won '''Immunity''' in the previous challenge and was safe from cooking.<br />
: {{Color box|white|border=darkgray}} (IN) The chef was not selected as a top entry or bottom entry in the challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|mistyrose|border=darkgray}} (PT) The chef was on the losing team in the '''Team Challenge''', competed in the Pressure Test, and advanced.<br />
: {{Color box|pink|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, but was not the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|orange|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, and was the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|crimson|border=darkgray}} (ELIM) The chef was eliminated from MasterChef.<br />
<br />
== Episodes ==<br />
{{Episode table|background=#9D2933|show_caption=y|caption=MasterChef South Africa Season 5 Episodes|overall=5|season=5|title=24|airdate=12|episodes={{Episode list|MasterChef South Africa Season 5<br />
|EpisodeNumber = 86<br />
|EpisodeNumber2 = 1<br />
|Title = TBA<br />
|OriginalAirDate = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
|ShortSummary = <br />
|LineColor = #9D2933<br />
}}}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Masterchef]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5)&diff=1215490460MasterChef South Africa (season 5)2024-03-25T13:11:49Z<p>Sungodtemple: Cleaning up accepted Articles for creation submission (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Infobox television season<br />
| bg_colour = #9D2933<br />
| season_number = 5<br />
| module1 = {{Infobox reality competition season<br />
| judges = {{Plainlist|<br />
*Zola Nene<br />
*Gregory Czarnecki<br />
*Katlego Mlambo<br />
}}<br />
| num_contestants = 20<br />
| winner = TBA<br />
| runner_up = TBA<br />
| location = [[Cape Town]]<br />
}}<br />
| num_episodes = TBA<br />
| network = [[SABC 3]]<br />
| first_aired = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
| prev_season = [[MasterChef South Africa (season 4)|Season 4]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The fifth season of ''[[MasterChef South Africa]]'' was announced on 17 January 2024 and will premiere 22 June 2024 on [[SABC 3]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Martin |first=Celeste |title=MasterChef South Africa returns for season 5! |url=https://www.ewn.co.za/2024/01/17/masterchef-south-africa-returns-for-season-5 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=EWN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
Returning judges for this season include Zola Nene and Justine Drake. Joined by new judge, Katlego Mlambo.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Maako |first=Keitumetse |title='Being a MasterChef judge was on my bucket list': Meet S5's hunky addition, Katlego Mlambo |url=https://www.news24.com/life/arts-and-entertainment/tv/being-a-masterchef-judge-was-on-my-bucket-list-meet-s5s-hunky-addition-katlego-mlambo-20240311-2 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=Life |language=en-US}}</ref> Filming will take place from 29 April – 8 June 2024 in [[Cape Town]]. <ref>{{Cite web |title=FAQs |url=https://masterchefsa.tv/faqs/ |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=MasterChef SA |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Contestants ==<br />
<br />
=== Top 20 ===<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:center"<br />
|+<br />
!Contestant<br />
!Age<br />
!Occupation<br />
!Hometown<br />
!Episode of Elimination<br />
!Place Finished<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Elimination Table ==<br />
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center; font-size: 8pt"<br />
! rowspan="2" |Place<br />
! rowspan="2" |Contestant<br />
! colspan="15" |Episode<br />
|-<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
: {{Color box|gold|border=darkgray}} (WINNER) This chef won the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|silver|border=darkgray}} (RUNNER-UP) This chef received second place in the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|limegreen|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef won the individual challenge ('''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''').<br />
: {{Color box|#959FFD|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef was on the winning team in the '''Team Challenge''' and was safe from the Pressure Test.<br />
: {{Color box|cornflowerblue|border=darkgray}} (HIGH) The chef was one of the top entries in the '''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''' but didn't win.<br />
: {{Color box|hotpink|border=darkgray}} (CC) The chef received the advantage of competing against a celebrity chef in this challenge. If they won, they advanced farther on in the competition, skipping a number of challenges. The chef could not be eliminated after this challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|violet}} (IMM) The chef won '''Immunity''' in the previous challenge and was safe from cooking.<br />
: {{Color box|white|border=darkgray}} (IN) The chef was not selected as a top entry or bottom entry in the challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|mistyrose|border=darkgray}} (PT) The chef was on the losing team in the '''Team Challenge''', competed in the Pressure Test, and advanced.<br />
: {{Color box|pink|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, but was not the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|orange|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, and was the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|crimson|border=darkgray}} (ELIM) The chef was eliminated from MasterChef.<br />
<br />
== Episodes ==<br />
{{Episode table|background=#9D2933|show_caption=y|caption=MasterChef South Africa Season 5 Episodes|overall=5|season=5|title=24|airdate=12|episodes={{Episode list|MasterChef South Africa Season 5<br />
|EpisodeNumber = 86<br />
|EpisodeNumber2 = 1<br />
|Title = TBA<br />
|OriginalAirDate = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
|ShortSummary = <br />
|LineColor = #9D2933<br />
}}}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Masterchef]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5)&diff=1215490459Talk:MasterChef South Africa (season 5)2024-03-25T13:11:49Z<p>Sungodtemple: Placing Articles for creation banner, adding 2 WikiProject banners (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{WikiProject Articles for creation|class=start|ts=20240325131149|reviewer=Sungodtemple|oldid=1215479577}}<br />
{{WikiProject South Africa|class=start}}<br />
{{WikiProject Television|class=start}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:41.149.75.140&diff=1215490456User talk:41.149.75.1402024-03-25T13:11:49Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for creation submission has been accepted (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[MasterChef South Africa (season 5)]] has been accepted ==<br />
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;">[[File:AFC-Logo.svg|50px|left]] '''[[MasterChef South Africa (season 5)]], which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.'''<br /><br />
<br />
Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions. <br /><br />
<br />
The article has been assessed as '''Start-Class''', which is recorded on its [[Talk:MasterChef South Africa (season 5)|talk page]]. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they [[Wikipedia:Article development|develop]] over time. You may like to take a look at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Grading scheme|grading scheme]] to see how you can improve the article.<br />
<br />
You may wish to consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|registering an account]] so you can create articles yourself.<br />
<br />
If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the '''<span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5) help desk]</span>'''.<span class="unconfirmed-show"> Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]].</span><br />
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If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider {{leave feedback/link|page=Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation|text=leaving us some feedback}}.<br />
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Thanks again, and happy editing!<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC talk--></div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/recent&diff=1215490455Wikipedia:Articles for creation/recent2024-03-25T13:11:49Z<p>Sungodtemple: Adding MasterChef South Africa (season 5) to list of recent AfC creations (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{afc contrib|start|MasterChef South Africa (season 5)|41.149.75.140}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|Totally Reliable Delivery Service|Aya19790}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|Cortinarius lacustris|92.249.215.196}}<br />
{{afc contrib|C|Azuki (manga publisher)|Fwoom}}<br />
{{afc contrib||2024 IMSA VP Challenge Round at Daytona International Speedway|DepressedHertaFan}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|Yasmina Benslimane|103.180.105.2}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|2024 Polish local elections|Gust Justice}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|Rick Witsken|TheImaCow}}<br />
{{afc contrib|start|Somu Sound Engineer|Kebru Maga}}<br />
{{afc contrib||Grand River, Prince Edward Island|Ja'hal Nahut (K'bech)}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5)&diff=1215490453Draft:MasterChef South Africa (season 5)2024-03-25T13:11:48Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Draft:MasterChef South Africa (season 5) to MasterChef South Africa (season 5): Publishing accepted Articles for creation submission (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[MasterChef South Africa (season 5)]]<br />
<br />
{{Redirect category shell|<br />
{{R from move}}<br />
}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MasterChef_South_Africa_(season_5)&diff=1215490451MasterChef South Africa (season 5)2024-03-25T13:11:47Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Draft:MasterChef South Africa (season 5) to MasterChef South Africa (season 5): Publishing accepted Articles for creation submission (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Draft topics|television}}<br />
{{AfC topic|media}}<br />
{{AfC submission|||ts=20240325114209|u=41.149.75.140|ns=118}}<br />
{{AfC submission|t||ts=20240325114111|u=41.149.75.140|ns=118|demo=}}<!-- Important, do not remove this line before article has been created. --><br />
<br />
{{Infobox television season<br />
| bg_colour = #9D2933<br />
| season_number = 5<br />
| module1 = {{Infobox reality competition season<br />
| judges = {{Plainlist|<br />
*Zola Nene<br />
*Gregory Czarnecki<br />
*Katlego Mlambo<br />
}}<br />
| num_contestants = 20<br />
| winner = TBA<br />
| runner_up = TBA<br />
| location = [[Cape Town]]<br />
}}<br />
| num_episodes = TBA<br />
| network = [[SABC 3]]<br />
| first_aired = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
| prev_season = [[MasterChef South Africa (season 4)|Season 4]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The fifth season of ''[[MasterChef South Africa]]'' was announced on 17 January 2024 and will premiere 22 June 2024 on [[SABC 3]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Martin |first=Celeste |title=MasterChef South Africa returns for season 5! |url=https://www.ewn.co.za/2024/01/17/masterchef-south-africa-returns-for-season-5 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=EWN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
Returning judges for this season include Zola Nene and Justine Drake. Joined by new judge, Katlego Mlambo.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Maako |first=Keitumetse |title='Being a MasterChef judge was on my bucket list': Meet S5's hunky addition, Katlego Mlambo |url=https://www.news24.com/life/arts-and-entertainment/tv/being-a-masterchef-judge-was-on-my-bucket-list-meet-s5s-hunky-addition-katlego-mlambo-20240311-2 |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=Life |language=en-US}}</ref> Filming will take place from 29 April – 8 June 2024 in [[Cape Town]]. <ref>{{Cite web |title=FAQs |url=https://masterchefsa.tv/faqs/ |access-date=2024-03-25 |website=MasterChef SA |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Contestants ==<br />
<br />
=== Top 20 ===<br />
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:center"<br />
|+<br />
!Contestant<br />
!Age<br />
!Occupation<br />
!Hometown<br />
!Episode of Elimination<br />
!Place Finished<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Elimination Table ==<br />
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center; font-size: 8pt"<br />
! rowspan="2" |Place<br />
! rowspan="2" |Contestant<br />
! colspan="15" |Episode<br />
|-<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|TBA<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
: {{Color box|gold|border=darkgray}} (WINNER) This chef won the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|silver|border=darkgray}} (RUNNER-UP) This chef received second place in the competition.<br />
: {{Color box|limegreen|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef won the individual challenge ('''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''').<br />
: {{Color box|#959FFD|border=darkgray}} (WIN) The chef was on the winning team in the '''Team Challenge''' and was safe from the Pressure Test.<br />
: {{Color box|cornflowerblue|border=darkgray}} (HIGH) The chef was one of the top entries in the '''Mystery Box Challenge''' or '''Invention Test''' but didn't win.<br />
: {{Color box|hotpink|border=darkgray}} (CC) The chef received the advantage of competing against a celebrity chef in this challenge. If they won, they advanced farther on in the competition, skipping a number of challenges. The chef could not be eliminated after this challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|violet}} (IMM) The chef won '''Immunity''' in the previous challenge and was safe from cooking.<br />
: {{Color box|white|border=darkgray}} (IN) The chef was not selected as a top entry or bottom entry in the challenge.<br />
: {{Color box|mistyrose|border=darkgray}} (PT) The chef was on the losing team in the '''Team Challenge''', competed in the Pressure Test, and advanced.<br />
: {{Color box|pink|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, but was not the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|orange|border=darkgray}} (LOW) The chef was one of the bottom entries in an individual elimination challenge, and was the last person to advance.<br />
: {{Color box|crimson|border=darkgray}} (ELIM) The chef was eliminated from MasterChef.<br />
<br />
== Episodes ==<br />
{{Episode table|background=#9D2933|show_caption=y|caption=MasterChef South Africa Season 5 Episodes|overall=5|season=5|title=24|airdate=12|episodes={{Episode list|MasterChef South Africa Season 5<br />
|EpisodeNumber = 86<br />
|EpisodeNumber2 = 1<br />
|Title = TBA<br />
|OriginalAirDate = {{Start date|2024|6|22|df=yes}}<br />
|ShortSummary = <br />
|LineColor = #9D2933<br />
}}}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ArnavVsh&diff=1215177899User talk:ArnavVsh2024-03-23T16:16:10Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:NorthStarBoys (NSB)|NorthStarBoys (NSB)]] (March 23) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This submission's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]—that is, they do not show ''significant'' coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in ''published'', [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']], [[Wikipedia:No_original_research#Secondary|''secondary'']] sources that are ''[[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]]'' of the subject (see the [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|guidelines on the notability of music-related topics]]). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|technical help]] and learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=The first source is [[WP:IS|non-independent]]. Please try to avoid [[WP:LINKROT|bare URLs]].}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:NorthStarBoys (NSB)]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:NorthStarBoys_(NSB) '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:NorthStarBoys_(NSB) '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''ArnavVsh'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:NorthStarBoys&diff=1215177897Draft:NorthStarBoys2024-03-23T16:16:09Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: music - Submission is about a musician or musical work not yet shown to meet notability guidelines (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{AFC submission|d|music|u=ArnavVsh|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240323161609|ts=20240323160923}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
<br />
{{AFC comment|1=The first source is [[WP:IS|non-independent]]. Please try to avoid [[WP:LINKROT|bare URLs]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{{Short description|NorthStarBoys in a nutshell}}<br />
{{Draft topics|music}}<br />
{{AfC topic|media}}<br />
<br />
'''NSB''', also known as the '''NorthStarBoys''', is an Asian-American musical band formed in August 2021.<ref>https://first-avenue.com/performer/north-star-boys/</ref> The band consists of Oliver Moy,Kane Ratan, Justin Phan, Regie Macalino, Ryan Nguyen, Darren Liang, and Sebastian Moy. The group members describe the band as a [[pop band]]. They have released 12 Songs till now. With, the latest release being Kissing Booth[https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/nsb31/kissing-booth]<br><br />
== How did they meet? ==<br />
Darren, Justin, Regie, and Ryan were friends and had a friend group in [[Dallas]] from the very beginning, they all met over Social Media Platforms,and then one day their one video blew up on <br />
[[TikTok]], and just then Sebastian and Oliver hit them up on TikTok and then they both travelled to [[Texas]] to meet Justin, Regie, Ryan, Darren. This wasn't the end just yet, After meeting up with Justin,Regie,Ryan, and Darren, They met Manager Ty and after that they met their new member Kane Ratan(Brother of Manager Ty), and this is how they all met.<br><br />
== Previous BackLash ==<br />
They have received tons of backlash in the past for Thirst Trapping [[Stop Asian Hate]] movement while being Half-Asians but they did issue a response on their TikTok account and also their YouTube account for doing so, “That is not a thirst trap. And we are not activists, nor do we try to be,” said Oliver Moy in the response video.<ref>https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stefficao/north-star-boys-tiktok-stop-asian-hate</ref><br />
== Songs ==<br />
{| class="wikitable"<br />
|-<br />
! Name !! Date of release !! Album/Single<br />
|-<br />
| Kissing Booth || 21 Mar 2024 || Single<br />
|-<br />
| Cold War || 20 Jul 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Panic || 8 Mar 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Misery || 6 Dec 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Friends || 26 Sept 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Sunshine || 20 Aug 2022 || Single<br />
|-<br />
| You are my star || 20 May 2022 || Single<br />
|-<br />
| What's up || 5 Oct 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Pretty Boy || 5 Oct 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| I'm not dead ft. Kodoku || 5 Oct 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| IDKU || 5 Oct 2023 || Album<br />
|-<br />
| Coachella || 5 Oct 2023 || Album<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Growth_Team_features/Mentor_list&diff=1215092096Wikipedia:Growth Team features/Mentor list2024-03-23T01:19:12Z<p>Sungodtemple: brevity</p>
<hr />
<div><noinclude>__NOTOC__</noinclude><br />
This is the list of mentors for the [[Wikipedia:Growth Team features|Growth Team features]]. If you would like to be available to help new users, please read the Q&A below, and visit '''[[Special:EnrollAsMentor]]''' to add your name to the list.<br />
<br />
; Why mentorship?<br />
When you arrive to a new place, it is always better to have a guide. Wikipedia is a complicated ecosystem, with its own set of technical subtleties, cultural habits and social interactions. Getting a mentor you can contact directly when you arrive helps you to make better first steps.<br />
<br />
; Who can become a mentor?<br />
If you are sufficiently experienced to answer basic editing questions from new users, and enjoy helping people in a friendly and supportive manner, then you are an ideal person to be a mentor. Thank you!<br />
<br />
You need to have at least 500 edits and have had an account for 90 days to sign up as a mentor. It is also expected that a significant proportion of those 500 edits will have been made in mainspace. If you don't yet meet this key requirement, please gain a bit more experience before signing up.<br />
<br />
; How do I sign up?<br />
Visit [[Special:EnrollAsMentor]] to sign up. You will need to specify a short welcome message. Avoid mentioning your own subject interests in your welcome message, as you will appear as a mentor to new users with many different backgrounds. Full instructions are at [[mw:Growth/Communities/How to introduce yourself as a mentor|Growth/Communities/How to introduce yourself as a mentor]]. <br />
<br />
(If you wish, you may add the userbox {{tlx|User mentor}}, the topicon {{tlx|User mentor topicon}}, or '[[:Category:Wikipedians who mentor new users]]' to your own user page.)<br />
<br />
; What happens next?<br />
Once you have signed up here, you will start to be randomly assigned users as 'mentees'. Their names will begin to appear in your new [[Special:MentorDashboard|'Mentor dashboard']] after a few hours. You can reach it via a new link in your personal user menu at the top of every page. Each mentee assigned to you will see ''your'' welcome message in a 'Your mentor' box on ''their'' own [[Special:Homepage|'Homepage']] tab. <br />
<br />
You <u>do not</u> need to proactively welcome your mentees – your invitation message simply invites ''them'' to ask ''you'' questions should they ever encounter difficulties and need help. However, if you wish to welcome your mentees anyway, you can use the {{tls|Mentor welcome}} or {{tls|Mentor welcome-autosign}} templates.<br />
<br />
; How will I know if a question comes from one of my mentees?'''<br />
When someone clicks the ''"Ask your mentor a question"'' button on their 'Homepage', their question will appear on ''your'' talk page. It will always appear with the following subject heading:<br />
:"''Question from [username]''"<br />
That username will always be hyperlinked, and the edit will be tagged in your page history as a 'Mentorship module edit' or 'Mentorship panel question'. (For further information see this [[mw:Growth/FAQ#mentoring Mediawiki|FAQ]])<br />
<br />
; Will I be swamped with questions?<br />
This is unlikely to happen. A Mentor is given to each new account, but about 1 user over 500 new accounts contact their mentor (based on the average number of questions asked by newcomers at wikis where Mentorship is deployed). However, it is not yet the case at English Wikipedia, where only 50% of new accounts get a mentor ([[Phab:T341399|as of October 2023]]), due to a lack of mentors.<br />
<br />
Bear in mind, the majority of new users will make just one edit. Of the remainder, most will be OK as they are. Of those needing help, some will find their way to the [[WP:TH|Teahouse]] or get solutions elsewhere. Only a small number will ever seek your help as a mentor, and we hope you will be there for them when they do. They might ask for things that are written on an help page or a policy page: don't forget that the vast majority of the world has no clue of how Wikipedia works. <br />
<br />
*For a list of every question asked of all mentors over the last 14 days, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?hidebots=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&tagfilter=mentorship+module+question%7Cmentorship+panel+question&limit=100&days=14&enhanced=1&title=Special:RecentChanges&urlversion=2 click here]. <br />
*For a list of currently unanswered questions over the last 30 days, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?hidebots=1&hidepreviousrevisions=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&tagfilter=mentorship+module+question%7Cmentorship+panel+question&limit=250&days=30&enhanced=1&title=Special:RecentChanges&urlversion=2 click here].<br />
<br />
; I respond to questions, and then the mentee doesn't return. It is quite unpleasant.<br />
Most newcomers aren't like mentors: they don't visit Wikipedia everyday. Some will return the day after, some other the week after (Wikipedia can be a recreational activity for the weekend), some other months after. Consider this when you curate your talk page: some mentees won't contact you again as they can't find your archived response.<br />
<br />
{{anchor|away}}<br />
; Can I set myself as Away from mentorship for a few days?<br />
<br />
Yes: please visit your [[Special:MentorDashboard|Mentor Dashboard]] and change your "Mentor status" in the "Settings" module to 'Away'. You will be asked to fill the length of your time off. You will be resumed as 'Active' automatically when the period of time you defined is over. You can return as active, or either shorten or extend this time off anytime by visiting your dashboard.<br />
<br />
No new mentee will be assigned to you during your time off. Your mentees will be informed of your absence when they want to contact you, and they will be redirected to a different mentor. However, some newcomers who already started a conversation with you, or the ones that contact you by directly visiting your user talk page, may still leave you a message.<br />
<br />
If you plan to be off for more than a few weeks, please consider to leave mentorship instead (and return!).<br />
<br />
; How are newcomers filtered at my mentor dashboard?<br />
By default, the Dashboard filter only displays users who've made at least one edit. Choosing a time period to show only those who've edited in the last day shortens it further.<br />
<br />
; Can I choose who I want to be a mentor to?<br />
In general, no. However, you can claim a mentee using [[Special:ClaimMentee]] (see [[:mw:Help:Growth/Tools/How to claim a mentee|How To Claim A Mentee]]). This tool can be used if you find a mentee who works on similar topics to you, or if you have an ongoing conversation with them.<br />
<br />
If you only want to act as mentor to a few ''specific'' users (e.g. course participants/editathon attendees), you can sign up as a mentor following the above process, then visit [[Special:MentorDashboard]] and set the "Number of mentees assigned to me" dropdown to "None". You can still use [[Special:ClaimMentee]] but no new accounts will automatically be assigned to you.<br />
<br />
; How can I leave mentorship?<br />
If you want to leave mentorship for good and stop receiving new messages from your mentees, please visit [[Special:QuitMentorship]]. If you plan to return after a short absence, consider [[#away|pausing mentorship instead]].<br />
<br />
Administrators may manage the list of mentors and their settings at [[Special:ManageMentors]].<br />
<br />
;Where can I leave feedback?<br />
;Where can I know more about mentorship and Growth features?<br />
You may leave comments about the Mentor list at [[Wikipedia talk:Growth Team features/Mentor list]], or give broader feedback and suggestions at [[Wikipedia talk:Growth Team features]]. You can also visit [[mw:Growth/FAQ|Growth's FAQ]].<br />
<br />
{{Special:ManageMentors}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)&diff=1215091251Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)2024-03-23T01:12:11Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Have we ever ran a banner explaining the quality topicons to readers? */ Reply</p>
<hr />
<div><noinclude>{{short description|Section of the village pump where new ideas are discussed}}{{pp-move-indef|small=yes}}{{village pump page header|Idea lab|The '''idea lab''' section of the [[Wikipedia:Village pump|village pump]] is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] discussion at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)|Village pump (proposals)]]. Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas. <br />''Before creating a new section, note'':<br />
* Discussions of '''technical''' issues belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)|Village pump (technical)]].<br />
* Discussions of '''policy''' belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)|Village pump (policy)]].<br />
* If you're ready to make a '''concrete proposal''' and determine whether it has consensus, go to the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)|Village pump (proposals)]]. Proposals worked out here can be brought there.<br />
''Before commenting, note'':<br /><br />
* This page is ''not'' for [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] [[WP:POLLING|polling]]. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.<br />
* Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals]].<br />
Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks.<!-- Villagepumppages intro end -->|WP:VPI|WP:VPIL}}__NEWSECTIONLINK__<!--<br />
-->{{User:MiszaBot/config<br />
|archiveheader = {{Wikipedia:Village pump/Archive header}}<br />
|maxarchivesize = 300K<br />
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}}<!--<br />
-->{{centralized discussion|compact=yes}}<!--<br />
-->__TOC__{{anchor|below_toc}}{{clear}}<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia village pump]]<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia proposals| Idea lab]]<br />
[[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]<br />
[[Category:Pages automatically checked for incorrect links]]</noinclude><br />
<br />
== Semi-Administrator right ==<br />
<br />
I believe that there should be an extended level of protection named "'''Semi-Administrator'''" that requires a user request their permissions on a [[WP:PERM]] page. I believe this should be added because it would prevent [[WP:PGAME]] and a possible future [[WP:INVASION]]. It would be like requesting [[WP:TPE]] or [[WP:RBK]], but instead it gives users the right to edit semi-administrator protected pages which would likely become commonplace in the future due to the expansion of [[media bias]], [[WP:BIAS|systematic bias]], and [[political extremism]], all leading to increased [[WP:VD|vandalism]]. Combined with the [[WP:NGR|reduction of editors]], this will cause disasterous effects. Another idea is to make [[WP:ECP]] a requested right instead of an automatic one. To reduce request backlog, however, there must be more administrators which means [[WP:RFAINFLATION]] needs to stop. <span style="border-radius:9pt;border:solid 2px #008;padding:1px;background-color:#bff">[[User:2003 LN6|<span style="color:#b00">2003</span>]][[User:2003LN6/t|<span style="color:#0b0">LN</span>]][[User:2003LN6/c|<span style="color:#00b">6</span>]]</span> 18:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[WP:WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG!]]<br>I don't think we should worry about anything that has no indication of happening. Permission gaming isn't happening on a large scale, and I'd rather preserve [[WP:NOBIGDEAL|adminship being no big deal]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 19:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Sounds good, but I still believe a backup plan is good or else [[WP:MOP|admins]] will have to do [[WP:RANGE|mass rangeblocks]] on pretty much the entire world during an [[WP:INVASION]], which would be [[WP:BITE|quite hostile to newcomers]]. <span style="border-radius:9pt;border:solid 2px #008;padding:1px;background-color:#bff">[[User:2003 LN6|<span style="color:#b00">2003</span>]][[User:2003LN6/t|<span style="color:#0b0">LN</span>]][[User:2003LN6/c|<span style="color:#00b">6</span>]]</span> 05:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I think mass-enabling [[WP:Pending changes]] would be a good plan. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 13:25, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::How about phasing out [[Wikipedia:Edit requests|edit requests]] in favour of pending changes for any protected pages? This is pretty radical, sure, but it'd make it much easier to propose a change quickly, rather than going through the hassle of putting up the template, etc... This would also make it easier for newcomers to quickly do some copyediting. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 20:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I feel like this would put too much of a burden on pending changes patrollers. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 00:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Approving 100 pending changes is much faster than responding to 100 edit requests. It could only require more effort from the community if we got far more contributions (e.g., 100 people willing to an edit under PC vs only 10 willing to figure out edit requests). On the other hand, if we believe what the [[Wikipedia:Editing policy]] says about Wikipedia being best when it has the most knowledge, then maybe that's a burden we should try to accommodate, at least to some extent.<br />
::::::BTW, a few years ago, an admin removed semi-protection from a bunch of articles (appropriately selected ones, not those likely to be targeted by spammers or juvenile vandals) and added PC. I believe the increase in activity was negligible. It might be possible to do something along these lines, e.g., to reduce some EC-protected articles to semi+PC. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::What's "semi+PC"? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I'm not 100% certain what the setup is these days, but I believe that it at least used to be possible to stack protections in a way that would prevent editing by IPs and new accounts entirely, and have PC protection for other accounts. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 03:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::There is not currently an EC level of pending changes. There is only one level of pending changes at the moment, and a consensus would be needed to add a new one. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 12:09, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Consensus would be needed for any of this, so that's not a showstopper. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::There used to be another level of pending changes, but there was consensus for its removal. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 16:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::That would be [[WP:PC2|Pending Changes Level 2]]. It used the {{mono|reviewer}} userright (before {{mono|extendedconfirmed}} existed) and locked approval of pending changes to that. It was trialled in 2010 and had failed RfCs to approve it in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016 before finally achieving consensus to remove it completely in 2017. [[Wikipedia:Pending changes#Timeline]] gives more context. Frankly, now that we have ECP there doesn't seem to be much use for Pending Changes at all anymore. The actual extension ([[mw:Extension:FlaggedRevs]]/[[m:Flagged Revisions]]) is unmaintained and the WMF has had a moratorium on new installs since 2017. I think it would be easier to get consensus to remove FlaggedRevs altogether than to expand it's usage. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 18:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I doubt it. FlaggedRevisions is used on all articles at the German-language Wikipedia. While one might not wish to emulate [https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/de.wikipedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|all|(page_type)~content*non-content|monthly their overall trajectory], it would is unheard of for any of the larger communities to voluntarily give up any software that allows them to exercise greater control over article content or new editors. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[File:Active_editors_at_the_English_Wikipedia_2001–2023.png|thumb|The number of [[metawiki:Research:Wikistats metrics/Active editors|active editors]] (registered accounts making 5+ edits in a given month) has been stable at the English Wikipedia since about 2013. ]]<br />
:@[[User:2003 LN6|2003 LN6]], just in case it was the very old image at the top of the page that made you believe that the number of editors is still declining, I've made an updated image for you. <br />
:As you can see, the number of active editors has been stable for 10+ years. There are some seasonal effects, but most months have 36K to 38K registered editors making five or more edits during the calendar month. The English Wikipedia isn't growing, but there is no decline, either. <br />
:If you want to see what a decline looks like, then check out [https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/de.wikipedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|all|(page_type)~content*non-content|monthly the numbers for the German Wikipedia]. Other communities, [https://stats.wikimedia.org/#/fa.wikipedia.org/contributing/active-editors/normal|line|2011-02-28~2024-02-25|(page_type)~content*non-content|monthly like the Persian Wikipedia], are growing. Overall, across all the languages, I understand that the number of editors was increasing slowly over time, spiked up during the first year of the pandemic, and might be settling down to a natural growth rate again. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 07:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I genuinely don't think [[WP:INVASION|a hypothetical scenario of thousands of vandals hacking into Wikipedia]] is a reasonable basis for such drastic changes. Blocking is easy for admins, and, if your hypothetical WikiInvaders can hack into established accounts, what would stop them from also hacking into accounts with that new user right? [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 13:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I agree. This is highly unlikely, and many of the outlined potential changes are a horrible idea. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 23:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Why is AfC so strict compared to NPP? ==<br />
<br />
For new pages patrol, it is common to see pages with a single source or two (in some cases even none) which are not even very reliable be reviewed and accepted. NPP seems to pass every article which doesn't have speedy deletion criteria-meeting problems, while AfC is much more strict with everything. I would even go further and say that some declined AfC submissions are better quality than over 15% of mainspace articles. Often, a declined AfC submission has incredible potential but gets declined, and the draft just dies after 6 months. What do you think? I think this discourages new users and kills out articles with potential to be well-sourced and notable. [[User:Youprayteas|Youprayteas]] ([[User talk:Youprayteas|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Youprayteas | c]]) 16:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I suspect the reason is that an actual article can only be deleted either if it meets one of the strict CSD criteria, or if it undergoes the community effort of an AFD. On the other hand, a single reviewer is allowed to decline an AFC submission purely because the reviewer thinks it's too low quality to submit as an article. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666|&#124;666&#124;]] 17:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think the ''real'' reason is probably as above, but I would point out that the best time to deal with any problems that an article might have is when it is brand new, so if an article author cooperates with the reviewer, rather than just abandoning things, a better article may result. A few reviewers seem to just reject any non-English or offline sources out of hand. If you come across one of those then it should be remembered that most of the time an author can simply move the article to main space where it will be subject to speedy deletion or an AfD discussion in the usual way. That option should be better publicised. AfC should be regarded as a service to article authors rather than a hurdle to be jumped over. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 17:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I think it's more structural than that: an AFC reviewer may be yelled at if they accept articles that meet the rules ("unlikely to get deleted at AFD") but are ugly ("How dare you put that short/incompletely cited/poorly written article in the mainspace?! Won't somebody think of our reputation!"). They are almost never yelled at if they decline these articles. Therefore, they are incentivized to ignore and decline articles that should be accepted. Therefore (since they are rational people), they will ignore and decline articles that should be accepted. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 05:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I think this is spot on. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Very true and relevant. I wrote more on this below. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 19:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Perhaps we should strike a middle ground on both of them. AfC reviewers should be expected to review them a little more leniently if they're sourced but [[WP:NOTFINISHED]] (which is inherent to any article), and NPP reviewers should be a little more willing to draftify or AfD weak articles if they don't immediately demonstrate notability. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:#324717">The</span><span style="color:#45631f">big</span><span style="color:#547826">ugly</span><span style="color:#68942f">alien</span>]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:sienna">talk</span>]]) 18:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Makes sense to me. [[User:Youprayteas|Youprayteas]] [[User talk:Youprayteas|<sup>talk</sup>]]<sup>/</sup>[[Special:Contributions/Youprayteas|<sup>contribs</sup>]] 18:58, 26 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::One issue here is user reputation: you lose nothing if you do nothing, but you risk losing some if you do something. In this context, neither declining an AFC (it will probably be unseen for a few months and then deleted), nor marking a page as patrolled (leaves behind a log entry, but few will notice it), is truly considered something; on the other hand, accepting a draft, or nominating an article for AFD, is. In borderline cases, the primary incentive is to do nothing. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666|&#124;666&#124;]] 17:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::@[[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover 666]], you might be interested in this [[Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers#c-Insertcleverphrasehere-20240207002300-North8000-20240206231900|discussion at WT:NPP earlier this month]], about how to make "doing nothing" a little more visible to other patrollers. (The context is that we need all new articles reviewed at least once in the first few minutes more than we need any single article silently reviewed 20 times.) [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It's true, typically AFC is tougher than typical NPP. This is due to a combination of human nature plus common practices and structure at AFC. NPP primarily screens by "should an article on this topic exist in Wikipedia?" which 90% of the times is by wp:notability. AFC also screens by other article quality criteria and has rejection templates for those other criteria. This can be both a plus and a minus...the plus is that more article improvement work gets done and editors learn while doing that. Also, I think that AFC reviewers are a bit more cautious. I think that sometimes they are viewing it as putting their stamp of approval on the overall articles. Also because a rejection at AFC often means just "work on it some more" whereas a rejection at NPP means taking it to AFD. Finally, I think that NPP tends to pass edge cases regarding wp:notability, a partial adaptation to the fact that even articles/topics which clearly fail wp:notability often get kept at AFD. I think that AFC reviewers tend to play it safer regarding this. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:46, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*The review process is different even though they are both quality control. However I have come across several new articles which were moved to draft space when they should not have been. My goal at AfC is to help good faith editors ensure their article won't be deleted, whereas at NPP I'm basically making sure there's no copyvio/putting template headers up so people understand what's wrong with the article. [[User:SportingFlyer|SportingFlyer]] ''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:top;">[[User talk:SportingFlyer|T]]</span>''·''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:bottom;">[[Special:Contributions/SportingFlyer|C]]</span>'' 19:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I agree with North that AFC reviewers {{xt|are viewing it as putting their stamp of approval on the overall article}}.<br />
*:By way of reducing the incentives to decline articles, I wonder whether a third AFC nomination should result in a procedural AFD. Then it's no individual's "fault" if the "bad" article ends up in the mainspace, and AFC won't have to go through multiple rounds of "No, really, getting mentioned on Facebook doesn't mean your garage band qualifies for a Wikipedia article". [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::For a newer editor, the WP:Notability decline template is hard to understand, doubly so because the Wikipedia meaning of wp:notability is different than the real world one. I've done a few help desk items there and have said it more directly (when there is not an SNG in play) "Find two published independent sources that discuss the topic of your article ''in depth'' and put them into the article as references. If you can't find those, IMO it's best not to try to create an article on this topic". <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::{{ping|WhatamIdoing}} I once sketched a [[User:Joe Roe/Requests for publication|streamlined replacement for AfC]] that incorporated a mechanism like that (though MfD instead of AfD, and on the first 'decline'). The idea was that if you restrict the range of options available to reviewers to a) accepting as-is, b) CSD, or c) sending to XfD, it removes the tendency for AfC to turn itself into an elaborated peer review process and returns it to just being a quick sanity-check on article creation requests. The detailed reviewing is then done by NPP, who were going to do it anyway. It would create quite of bit of extra work at XfD, however, so I think it would only be viable if combined with stopping encouraging new editors from using AfC (see below) and reserving it just for editors prevented from creating things in mainspace by a COI or partial block. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 14:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I think it needs to be AFD (because that's where the subject-matter experts already are), and I think that making it the third round would cut the volume significantly. Anything that survives AFD shouldn't get further review by NPP and should be ineligible for future draftification (which is what some NPPers prefer to do with ugly articles on notable subjects – these editors care about article quality, rather than deletion-worthiness). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* I'm not sure it matters that the standards differ (though {{u|WhatamIdoing}}'s explanation is spot-on, and I like their procedural-AFD idea too). What we need is better appreciation of the different routes by which articles can arrive in main-space. AfC and NPP are quite different, and some articles simply don't suit one or the other. For example, an academic editor writing about a historical figure, using non-English, written (book) sources as referencing shouldn't hesitate to bypass AfC because it's highly unlikely that anyone there will feel qualified to assess the article, or have access to the sources. At the very least, the article will sit there for months. Meanwhile, AfC reviewers, when in doubt, shouldn't feel bad about accepting and instantly sending to AFD in WhatamIdoing's procedural sense. The whole guiding principal of Wikipedia is that it's a multi-editor, collaborative project. An AfC reviewer can reject once, but as soon as the article's author disagrees, it's a dispute that requires community consensus - and AfD's where that gets discussed. This needs wording correctly, so that everyone understands that the article has arrived at AfD for a second, multi-editor opinion, not because the creator committed a crime in submitting it, or the AfC reviewer is evil for their one-editor view that it's not okay. [[User:Elemimele|Elemimele]] ([[User talk:Elemimele|talk]]) 13:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:It's common to see AFD nominations marked as "procedural nomination", so that latter idea fits right in with existing practices. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*It's [[Wikipedia:broken by design|broken by design]]. AfC primarily exists to give people who we don't actually want to create articles a way to create articles (classic Wikipedian logic there), and as such there is no real reason to make the process effective or encouraging. No editor with a modicum of experience or good advice uses AfC unless [[WP:COIEDIT|they have to]]. We should stop encouraging good-faith new editors to use it too. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 13:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Have a way to prevent "hallucinated" AI-generated citations in articles ==<br />
<br />
A major issue observed at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject AI Cleanup]] is the ability for LLMs to make up entire citations that never actually existed, given a veneer of verifiability to actually completely unsourced articles. Examples include [[Leninist historiography]] (now turned into a redirect), with [[Special:Diff/1188376670|completely made-up references]]. Another example is ''[[Estola albosignata]]'', with [[Special:Diff/1152503574|LLMs generating foreign-language sources]] that actually existed, but had nothing to do with the topic and would be unlikely to be detected by a non-specialist not speaking the relevant languages.<br><br />
As LLMs become more commonplace, and this kind of insidious "sourced-but-really-unsourced" text generation becomes harder to detect than plain unsourced text, should we try to work on a way to limit such situations? [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 01:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Ultimately edits have to be checked. It would be a good university research project to build an AI to evalute edits and highlight ones that appear to be unsupported by citations. The rate at which content was falsely flagged would probably be high to start (including content supported by sources in some more distant location in the article), but it could still help produced a prioritized list of edits for human checking. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 01:52, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::True, but as interesting as it would be, a university research project isn't a Wikipedia policy or task force. And that wouldn't solve the specific problem of AI-generated text making up convincing-looking references, which something like a limitation on AI reference generation could do. Something as simple as having to disclose the references as having been AI-generated (and tagging them for further review) could be helpful. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 03:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Unfortunately, the only way to truly know whether a citation is genuine is to manually check it. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Yep, and that's why tagging AI-generated citations for manual reviews is the best way to go. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 13:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Your base assumption seemed to be that it was hard to detect when a citation had been AI-generated. Ultimately all edits have to be checked. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::No. Please stop assuming what others' "base assumptions" were, it's strawmanning and doesn't help the discussion at all. Citations in the middle of AI-generated text are easy to recognize as AI-generated, but the lack of policies on AI generation means they currently stand without any extra scrutiny. Despite being spurious in the vast majority of cases. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It would be a good research project for Wikipedians to work on, too. I only mentioned universities because I feel it's a natural fit for the WMF to engage in partnership, with external timelines from the university and other funders also driving progress. But Wikipedia editors can apply for WMF funding, or just work on it for free if they desire. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:29, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::To clarify, the task would be to mimic what human verification does: examine the change, look at any related references (either as part of the change or pre-existing ones that seem appropriate), determine if the references exist, read the cited works if they are accessible, and evaluate if the change is supported by the references. This is of course a difficult task. But a program working on it will do it tirelessly and continually. It wouldn't be a magic solution, but it could help enable human checking to find more problems more rapidly. At a minimum, it would help identify plausible but fictional references. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::So, you are proposing a solution to a problem caused by AI that involves more AI. Surely it would be easier just to not use AI in the first place? [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 12:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Well, yes. Similarly, the best solution to gun crime would be for criminals not to use guns, but arming the police is a good plan B. If AI has any place in Wikipedia, it's in suggesting edits which an experienced human can consider critically and make or discard. There are [[Travelling salesman problem|plenty of problems]] where finding a solution is hard but verifying it is easy. As long as no one implements alleged solutions without verification. AI can have a role. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 12:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The assumption in the original comment seemed to be that it was difficult to distinguish when the source of the edit was program-generated text. Sure, it would be easier to say text shouldn't be written by programs (and I think there's a reasonable chance that this could attain consensus support), but it wouldn't stop the problem of editors ignoring this policy. Ultimately, all edits have to be checked; AI could be used to help prioritize which edits to check first, but it doesn't have to be. Either way, we need to find a way to ramp up the amount of verification effort in a sustained manner, which isn't going to be easy. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Saying that making a policy doesn't stop editors from ignoring the policy, while technically true, doesn't mean it isn't helpful. That's the reason we have policies at all to begin with. Also, I never suggested banning AI writing altogether, but using AI to generate citations, as they are nearly always incorrect or completely made up.<br>Also, your suggestion of implementing automated verification of all edits is pretty far off from the original discussion, and doesn't really answer the specific issue raised. I suggest you open a separate discussion for this proposal, to avoid both getting mixed up. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::You asked for ways to manage fictious citations, and I suggested one way was to find automated ways to detect them. I feel this aligns with your suggestion of tagging them. Are you considering a manual process for tagging them? [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::I'm just considering tagging or disclosing citations that are AI-generated. The question is how to deal with a tool (LLMs) that facilitates adding spurious citations, rather than how to make a tool to verify every single citation (which would be a project at a much bigger scale, and relying on it for the first issue would make the process take much longer).<br>I'm not against an automated way to verify citations. To the contrary, I feel like this would be extremely beneficial to the encyclopedia, and I encourage you to work on it! My point is just that relying on this (very powerful, but harder to implement) tool to solve the more specific problem would be slower than implementing a tagging/disclosing/etc. policy, with warnings/sanctions for editors adding false citations with LLMs. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 20:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Again, no hard feelings at all, I really believe your idea has potential! I just feel like it would be better for both to have their own sections/discussions as they solve different, although certainly related, problems. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 20:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I appreciate the response. I don't think relying on editors to flag their own edits as containing citations generated by text-writing programs is going to very effective, since editors who follow policy will be manually checking that any citations are valid and support the added content. I think some kind of automated tagging would be needed to avoid editor fatigue, and to free up editor effort for the real problem of verifying edits. It's already counter to policy to include a false citation, regardless of where it came from, so administrators can take appropriate actions as needed. Although English Wikipedia's good-faith and welcoming traditions underlie its ability to attract more volunteers, they also mean there isn't much way to prevent a new editor from doing things they really want to do. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 02:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Your [[#c-Chaotic Enby-20240228171200-Joe Roe-20240227132700|comment below]] on an approach that would "only solve half the problem" seems to indicate that you are also concerned about verifying if a cited work actually supports the content added. This also aligns with having tools to help assist with that verification. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::In related news, [https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/19/ai_researchers_reviewing_peers/ AI researchers have started reviewing their peers using AI assistance]. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 16:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:So what I said at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 179#What can chatbots do?]] actually came true... <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef#top|talk to me]]) 12:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think this is going to be the most challenging thing with LLMs. Unsourced text is trivial to spot, but these generated citations can be really convincing, e.g. using the names of real authors with expertise in that subject alongside titles they would plausibly (but didn't) write. And most of our quality-control processes are too undermanned to manually verify each citation.<br />
:One solution I can think of is to start insisting that references include at least one external identifier (ISBN, ISSN, DOI, etc.). These could be used to automatically check the existence of a publication matching the citation in external databases. We could start gently at first, with warnings for missing template parameters and tags like {{tl|ISBN missing}}. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 13:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I at least ocassionally use books as sources that were published before ISBN existed. I also often use articles as sources from journals that do not have ISSN or DOI identifiers, but which I regard as reliable sources for what I use them for. The journal articles and many of the older books that I have cited for many years now are on-line, either free-access or available through the WikiLibrary, and I link the URL when there is no DOI, JSTOR, or similar link, but I would oppose any measure that prevents us from using relevant, reliable sources that do not have an ISBN, ISSN, DOI, etc identifier, and are not (yet) on-line. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I also often work with sources that legitimately have no ISBNs etc, and I agree that a hard requirement for ISBNs is a non-starter -- it wouldn't even help much against LLMs, because they often do provide (fake) ISBNs. But! Since the LLM's ISBN ''is'' usually fake, it rarely points to the book being cited (especially when that book is fake too) -- a ''mismatch'' would be a useful diagnostic symptom to prompt scrutiny. It seems tricky but not impossible to have a bot that, e.g., looks up a cited ISBN for its title and compares that title to the title in the citation. If these mismatches were given a maint tag, they could then be scrutinized more easily. [[User:LEvalyn|<span style="color: #6703fc">~ L</span><small> 🌸</small>]] ([[User talk:LEvalyn|talk]]) 00:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. But in order for such mismatch-checks to be effective, we'd need a stronger (but not totally-inflexible) requirement to provide identifiers. Otherwise you could circumvent the whole thing by simply getting the LLM to generate fake citations without ISBNs. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 13:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I'm not a stranger to using old sources either. But ISBN/ISSNS will be issued for any new editions or republications of older volumes, and failing that we could look to things like OCLC or national library catalogue numbers, which are assigned retrospectively. There will still be things that fall through cracks, of course, but I imagine well over 99% of sources can now be matched with authoritative identifiers. I don't envisage that this measure would ''stop'' people using sources without identifiers, just strongly encourage them to provide them where possible. Like all our rules, it would be ignorable when necessary. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 13:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::That would only solve half of the issue, at best. A lot of times, AI-generated citations link to actual works in the general domain of the topic, that could plausibly match, but which don't address the specific topic or verify the claim at all (see the ''Estola albosignata'' example discussed above). [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:It seems like a potentially useful application of AI would be to download a corpus of (sentences with citations, full text of the cited sources) pairs, and train/finetune an AI model to evaluate whether it thinks the source supports the sentence. Even if it produces some false negatives, it could still generate a useful prioritised worklist for human editors to manually verify. Of course, not all sources are readily available to download, but many are. This would help catch cases of verification failures in general, not just LLM hallucinations. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There was some work ~a decade ago that did this sort of in reverse: it took unsourced statements in Wikipedia and checked one of the big newspaper sites to see if it could find a suitable source. It seemed to work most of the time, especially for simpler things (e.g., "Joe Film announces his new film"). [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Chaotic Enby|Chaotic Enby]], I'm curious about the claim above that {{xt|Citations in the middle of AI-generated text are easy to recognize as AI-generated}}. Is the idea here that we should assume that text we've detected as being AI-generated should be assumed to not include real citations, or is there something specific about an AI-generated citation that would let you detect that specifically?<br />
:My experience with the free LLM-detection tools online is that they think the articles I've written were AI-generated too often for me to trust their accuracy. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I'm not talking about LLM-detection tools (which always lag behind LLMs and aren't very reliable), I'm just saying that we can recognize some of the "obvious" AI-generated text (with, for instance, the usual ChatGPT keywords/text structure), and infer that the citations inside it are very likely also AI-generated. There's more information about this on [[Wikipedia:WikiProject AI Cleanup]] if you want! [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 21:17, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::That page, particularly "Other indications include the presence of fake references", sets up the possibility for circular decision-making: I know it's LLM-generated text because the refs are fake, and I know the refs are fake because it's LLM-generated text. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 22:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Refs being fake alone shouldn't be used to decide something is AI-generated text, it's an ''indication''. And, if you read my proposal, you'll see I never said that any LLM-generated text should have its references automatically seen as false, but as ''to be reviewed by humans''. The solution is obviously to actually check if the references are fake or not, rather than to get caught up in circular reasoning. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 16:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::In a way, I wonder whether this is a problem that's going to have to be solved in the bigger world - just as Captcha became so important, and we realised first that a human is something that can identify fire hydrants, and later that a human was something that moves a mouse towards a fire hydrant in a wobbly way. LLM's can work very fast, and are extremely good at faking references in very convincing ways. They require neither intelligence, ethics, nor good will from their users. So at the moment, they're a huge risk not only to Wikipedia, but to accuracy of almost every web result, all the way from Wikipedia-references to pictures of people in no clothes. The world desperately needs good ways to identify and screen-out LLM-products, and it's going to be the same battle of will as happened with Captcha: as AI gets better at generating human-like text, other AI will get better at detecting AI-produced text. It may be that anything we do in Wikipedia-world is actually a pointless and partial duplication of something that Google and others are probably working on as we speak. With the current state of AI and LLM's, I definitely favour a flat ban on all AI-generated material in WP. The risks outweigh the benefits by a vast margin. [[User:Elemimele|Elemimele]] ([[User talk:Elemimele|talk]]) 12:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Enforcement of a ban will depend on being able to identify AI/LLM-produced material with a reasonably high success rate while keeping false positives at an acceptably low rate. But, why should we be more concerned by the source of material than about the quality of material? Humans are also capable of introducing false information, bad sources, and misleading images to WP. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, and anyone can verify content. The emphasis needs to be on what will improve the encyclopedia. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 13:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::My money is on identifying AI/LLM being the easier of the two problems, and verifying content the harder. Part of the problem is old, pre-internet paper references, which are very easy for AI to fake, and very hard for individuals to verify (in fact near impossible: all you need to do is claim that it's in a pre-ISBN book from a nice long time ago, preferably in a foreign language, and the chances of anyone managing to prove the book ''doesn't'' exist are very slim). But it would be very bad for the encyclopedia if we had to ban old, paper sources, because they're too hard to verify and too easily faked. I do think we should be concerned at the source of the material. We have a general principle that every editor is responsible for what they submit; if you submit falsified sources you will get banned very quickly. If you submit falsified material on behalf of another editor, you will also get banned pretty quickly. So given that AI purports to create material like an editor, but falsifies its referencing depressingly often, every current AI-bot is ripe for banning; and those editors who are using them to create wrongly-references gunk are equally ripe. If an editor whose mother tongue is Spanish writes material that's not great grammatically, but is factually correct, some other editor can easily gnome it into shape. This is much, much more productive than having to deal with the misleading nonsense produced by someone who thinks it's okay to edit Wikipedia using AI to circumvent the fact that they are incompetent in the language, the subject, and the whole general idea of writing encyclopedia articles. [[User:Elemimele|Elemimele]] ([[User talk:Elemimele|talk]]) 19:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::This isn't really a new problem. There have been jokes like these since for decades:<br />
::::::::; <nowiki>Proof by reference to inaccessible literature:</nowiki><br />
::::::::: The author cites a simple corollary of a theorem to be found in a privately circulated memoir of the Slovenian Philological Society, 1883.<br />
::::::::; <nowiki>Proof by ghost reference:</nowiki><br />
::::::::: Nothing even remotely resembling the cited theorem appears in the reference given.<br />
::::::::People who want to tag sources rather than find them may want a new template, maybe <sup>[[Link|[fake source?]]]</sup> or something along those lines. But what works best is when editors pitch in to find good sources. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::"What works best" would be an ideal-case scenario, but, given that not every editor is always available to find good sources, it would be a good thing to tag AI-generated sources for potential fakeness in the meanwhile. Tagging/removing a false source shouldn't need the much higher prerequisite of bringing a better source to replace it. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 16:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I think that it might be possible to make a bot that checks citations for possible red flags and tags it for review by a human (or adds it to a list somewhere for review by a human.) Verifying that an ISSN is valid and is at least not too far off from the information in the citation, for instance, is reasonable to automate. Links that are dead the ''first time'' they're added as a citation, as opposed to going dead later, would also be a red flag, and could be reasonably examined by a bot. Other stuff like "does a book of this name by this author actually exist" is something a bot can potentially determine by searching public databases and APIs. If it's built well, some of the potentially problematic or broken citations it catches might be worth catching even aside from any issues with AI-generated stuff. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 16:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That could be a great idea indeed! There could be issues with less-referenced books, but that's still a reason for flagging for further verification and not, like, immediately removing them. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 19:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Special period advertising sister projects ==<br />
<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Advertising_sister_projects]]<br />
<br />
{{hr}}<br />
*'''Proposal''': Launch a multi-week campaign in some format (''e.g.'' more prominent links on the Main Page, banners, or any other ideas you have) that encourages en.wiki readers to explore and possibly contribute to our sister projects. (''e.g.'' [[wikt:|Wiktionary]], [[s:en:|Wikisource]], [[f:|Wikifunctions]])<br />
*'''Why?''' Quite simply, sister Wikimedia projects have a lot to offer readers, and as one of the most viewed sites on the internet (globally!) we should help introduce readers to these resources. As you know, other Wikimedia projects include a dictionary/thesaurus which includes translations; a travel guide; a library of digitized public domain texts that anyone can download or distribute; a travel guide; a media repository; and many others. The sister project links are currently buried far down on the Main Page, and are especially distant for mobile viewers who make up an increasing share of our readership. Why would we not want to help readers discover some of the useful resources our sister projects have to offer?<br />
* I am conscious this proposal is extremely unlikely to succeed or even make it to the [[WP:RFC|RfC]]-at-[[WP:VPROP|VPPR]] phase, if only because it's either too drastic a change (it isn't!) or because Wikipedia is infected with the conceit that it is the primary and greatest Wikimedia project and shouldn't lift a finger to help smaller ones ([https://www.similarweb.com/top-websites/ In 2024, we are the seventh most-visited website in the world. We're ''fine''.] Adding a few links is not going to cause en.wiki's readership to collapse.)<br />
Happy editing, [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 21:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I like the idea of promoting, but one question is, indeed, how. I'd suggest just using a banner.<br><small>As a tangent, I really don't feel compelled to contribute to Wikifunctions as long as we can't invoke these functions anywhere else.</small> [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 21:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Banners are probably the best option (and I have a couple of ideas on that front)<br />
::<small>Continuing the tangent: yeah, nobody seems to be breaking down the door to get at the free python functions. I guess the eventual plan is to implement wikifunctions in sister projects, i.e. in modules, in the same way that wikidata supports some infoboxen.</small> [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 21:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I've drafted a few sketchy ideas [[User:Cremastra/sandbox2|here]]. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 16:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I'd 1. Remove the serif style and make the button look like Wikipedia's buttons 2. Add a bit of padding inside around the border 3. Link to the "welcome, wikipedian" templates or guides [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::# {{partially done}} I like the serif font for the names; but this is an aesthetic issue at the end of the day<br />
:::::# {{done}}<br />
:::::# {{nd}} Only a small percentage of readers are Wikipedians.<br />
:::::[[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Sounds good. Maybe make "ikisource" in smallcaps to match the wordmark? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 18:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably, we can change the statistics given in bold and instead write<br />
::::• Wikisource : Unlock the Library of Free Knowledge!<br />
::::• Wikitionary : Your Gateway to Words and Meanings!<br />
::::I think readers who have never edited will not be encouraged to contribute to our sister projects; the lines will make them curious to open up the projects and will casually make them [[Wikipedia:Serendipity|fall into the rabbit hole]]. [[User:Harvici|<span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:#CC4E5C ; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">Harvici</span>]] ([[User talk:Harvici|<span style="color:#228B22">''talk''</span>]]) 15:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::These taglines are pretty corny (sorry) and too long. I don't think taglines like "the free encyclopedia" will make one any more likely to contribute. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::But wouldn't the lines attract readers to the projects, and while going through many pages wouldn't the readers be able to contribute to the pages they deem incomplete? [[User:Harvici|<span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:#CC4E5C ; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">Harvici</span>]] ([[User talk:Harvici|<span style="color:#228B22">''talk''</span>]]) 17:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I don't think the lines would attract any more people, and readers would go through some pages anyways regardless of the tagline. Plus, Wikisource and Wiktionary aren't the kind of stuff one'd conventionally be able to wander through, unlike Wikipedia. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I agree with Aaron Liu on this one. Let's go with what Wikimedia does well: quiet, sober, thoughtfulness. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I would definitely support a multi-week campaign, but also some way to more effectively link to other projects permanently. For example the Wikivoyage article for "Australia" is not accessible from our article [[Australia]] at all on mobile and rather obscurely linked from desktop. If the campaign is successful we need to back it up after it is done. [[User:Commander Keane|Commander Keane]] ([[User talk:Commander Keane|talk]]) 03:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::While I'm not against Wikivoyage, personally I'm against linking articles to Wikivoyage as it is by definition quite opinionated. That said, you can use the template {{tl|wikivoyage}}. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 03:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I was wrong, you can access the Wikivoyage article from mobile on [[Australia]] if you expand External links and then expand In sister projects. As to the general proposal for a campaign, [[User:Aaron Liu|Aaron Liu]] do you support Wikivoyage banners as long as they don't specifically link to particular Wikivoyage entries? [[User:Commander Keane|Commander Keane]] ([[User talk:Commander Keane|talk]]) 03:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Yes. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 12:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Theklan|Theklan]] might have some ideas about this. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well, yes, there are some things that can be done, like adding a link below the main image of articles to point to Commons (look at [[:eu:Txinpantze]]), or adding Wikisource links inline ([[:eu:Txantiloi:Wikiteka-lotura]]). Visiblity could come directly in the Vector style, with links to the sister projects below the title. But this proposal was dismissed by the WMF ({{phab|T287609#7384679}}) and any alternative is also blocked ({{phab|T328077}}). [[User:Theklan|Theklan]] ([[User talk:Theklan|talk]]) 08:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::We already have it under the portlet's "In other projects" when applicable. This is about something to just generally advertise these sites, not links on specific pages. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I wouldn't mind doing something to raise awareness of other projects, but we should make sure that it is ''unobtrusive''. The constant fundraising banners that readers see have gotten worse and worse in recent years. In 2009, even the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-11-16/Fundraiser|WIKIPEDIA FOREVER]] fundraiser banner was seen as garish and widely panned in tech press, in addition to having a [[Wikipedia:Petition for reconsideration of the Wikipedia Forever banner|petition]] circulated to remove it. Every year they've just gotten more obnoxious, including [[:File:Mobile fundraising banner Dec 2022 - Close button visible.png|these]] [[:File:WMF mobile fundraising splash screens19dec22.png|examples]] from 2022. If we do something, we should keep it simple, small and unlikely to disrupt the reader experience. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 17:20, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Oh yeah, the fundraising banners suck (and the WMF seems to be deaf to our hints about them). I was thinking something similar to the banners advertising, say, the steward elections. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I'm all for it as long as it's not super intrusive [[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]], <span style="color:red;">harbinger of chaos</span> 03:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Citations on policy pages ==<br />
<br />
Have we ever discussed the merits of including citations on policy and guideline pages, pointing to the talk page sections that influenced the current wording? We have the equivalent of this on [[WP:RSP]], which I think is quite useful. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 08:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:That's already in place in some places such as [[WP:ITNR]]. It'd be needed to convert all existing footnotes under the note refgroup, though. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Too complex… there are sections of policy that have had ''dozens'' discussions over the years, each of which has influenced what we see today. We would have to have a long chain of “citations” for each sentence (and sometimes even for specific words). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 15:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::We could use it for simpler sections. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Having it for some but not others will result in wikilawyers claiming that the rule they dislike isn't "really" true; linking many discussions will be used as proof that it's "repeatedly contested".<br />
:::RSP is different because it's meant to be a handy summary of prior discussions, rather than a rule itself. There shouldn't be anything in RSP that can't link to at least two prior discussions (a source that's only been discussed once, or never, isn't "perennial").<br />
:::If you're interested in the general subject, you might like reading the history section of [[Wikipedia:Core content policies]]. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::We could use [[WP:BUNDLING]] to reduce the visual clutter, and perhaps passages which have had dozens of discussions are exactly the ones where a collation of all that history would be very useful. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 19:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I've [[Wikipedia talk:Policies and guidelines/Archive 14#c-Isaacl-2021-05-27T14:29:00.000Z-Arbitrary break|suggested it before]] on the talk page for [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines]]. I agree there are challenges in making these annotations, and don't think it's worth the effort to do it in retrospect for most situations. (The primary exception I can think of is when the provenance of a given passage is questioned, and the groundwork is done to trace it back. At that point, adding a reference is the simple part.) When it's easily added for a new change, though, I think it's worthwhile in order to help put the change into context in future. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I'm in favor of the idea in principle, but the implementation sounds non-trivial. If there is a push for this I would be happy to help with the efforts. [[User:Spintheer|spintheer]] ([[User talk:Spintheer|talk]]) 18:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think we already do this to some degree for some of the more contentious PAGs (you can see the footnotes on every PAG page), but we aren't consistent. While I think citations may be useful (I know some newer WikiProjects/taskforces do this), digging through years of discussions to retroactively "cite" high-traffic PAGs may not be feasible. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 18:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::No doubt it would be a lot of work. But then, working through massive backlogs is something we do all the time. Perhaps a good place to start would be to take a look at the last RfC which touched policy or guideline wording, and mock up what a citation to it would look like. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 19:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::A simple <ref> linking to the discussion would suffice, or an efn that says something like "See the following discussions: [1] [2] [3]". [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 19:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::For an interesting example of what this could (probably, kinda) look like, take a look at [[WP:ACERULES]], which uses quite a lot of {{tag|ref|o}}s to link to the RFCs where the rules were decided. --[[User:Rchard2scout|rchard2scout]] ([[User talk:Rchard2scout|talk]]) 14:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Have we ever ran a banner explaining the quality topicons to readers? ==<br />
<br />
Hi, y'all! After reading [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Proposal:_Remove_the_topicons_for_good_and_featured_articles]], some editors say that readers are not aware of what the topicons represent. Has the wiki ever ran a campaign or put up banners explaining what they are? If not, could it be done? — ♠[[User:Ixtal|Ixtal]] <sup>( [[User talk:Ixtal|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ixtal|C]] ) </sup> &#8258; <small> [[Non nobis solum]]. </small>♠ 21:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hovering over the icon produces a tooltip explaining what it means, and the icon itself also links to GA or FA. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 22:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Generally speaking, readers hate banner messages that get in the way of the information they were seeking. Personally, I feel a banner to explain [[Help:Page status indicators|page status indicators]] would be overly intrusive. A link to a legend would be better. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 22:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:As above, a banner is overkill. IMO it's obvious and any final concerns should be solved by the tooltip. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Well, I support it. The WMF runs banners for fundraising and random non-enwp-related stuff all the time -- giant ones, too -- so I don't think we can act like the presence of a banner is an unwelcome imposition on readers ''ipso facto''. I mean, look at this: [[meta:CentralNotice/Calendar]]. Here is what enwp has flying atop the page:<br />
:* Awareness of Wiki community run Wiki Loves Folklore International Photographic contest<br />
:* Movement Charter Community feedback period<br />
:* Movement Charter ratification period<br />
:* Ukraine's Cultural Diplomacy Month 2024<br />
:* Wikidata Leveling Up Days 2024<br />
:* Wikimedia Stewards elections<br />
:* International Women's Day/International Women's Month<br />
:* Every Book Its Reader 2024 in English speaking countries<br />
:* Wiki Loves Monuments 2024<br />
:* Some dozen or so fundraising campaigns in different countries<br />
:At worst, it's background noise that they're thoroughly used to, and at best, it's something that might actually improve their understanding and skill at using the website -- something for readers -- as opposed to something like e.g. steward elections, that even 99% of ''editors'' don't participate in, or the photography contest, which is of interest for photographers and contributors. Not that it's bad to run banners for these things, it's just that I think in practice the bar is pretty low for how relevant something has to be to get a sitenotice. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 01:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::...and readers complain about them, and users ask for ways to suppress them. And there should always be a way to figure out what the status indicators mean; there are always new readers, and even existing readers should be able to learn about them outside of a time-limited campaign. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 02:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:As one of the people who raised that in said discussion, I feel there's many other aspects of the encyclopedia that would warrant more reader attention, and it seems a bit odd to solely prioritise this. A good amount of people are going to ignore the banner anyway, see [[banner blindness]]. <br />
:A better idea IMO would be having a running section on the Main Page that cycles through various elements of the encyclopedia that we feel readers should know about. It could go below featured pictures. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 05:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::That's a promising idea: a sort of "tip of the day" but for readers. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 09:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I agree. — ♠[[User:Ixtal|Ixtal]] <sup>( [[User talk:Ixtal|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ixtal|C]] ) </sup> &#8258; <small> [[Non nobis solum]]. </small>♠ 10:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::That could be a great idea! Although "featured pictures" is often too low for new readers to see without scrolling, so maybe our new section could be placed higher up instead? [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 13:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I don't know if that would get support for a permanent spot in the page, but what about a temporary thing? Like, for one month each day has different information in the section and it could be done yearly or something so it doesn't take up too much space all the time. — ♠[[User:Ixtal|Ixtal]] <sup>( [[User talk:Ixtal|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ixtal|C]] ) </sup> &#8258; <small> [[Non nobis solum]]. </small>♠ 14:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::There's {{tl|Main page banner}} when you need it. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I like this, we hide the inner workings of Wikipedia ''too'' well from the viewers in a time where we are losing editors. ♠ [[User:Ca|Ca]] <i><sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">[[User talk:Ca|talk to me!]]</sup></i> 01:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::What are the inner workings that viewers don't know we feel they should know the most? — ♠[[User:Ixtal|Ixtal]] <sup>( [[User talk:Ixtal|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ixtal|C]] ) </sup> &#8258; <small> [[Non nobis solum]]. </small>♠ 10:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Not sure where to start editing? Create an account, and we'll offer you a bunch of easy tasks to get started! [[User:Ghosts of Europa|Ghosts of Europa]] ([[User talk:Ghosts of Europa|talk]]) 16:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::OOOOOOOOh! I think actually something that could get a lot of support in the community is running some kind of recruitment drive with tips of the day as part of it. Not sure how it could look doe. — ♠[[User:Ixtal|Ixtal]] <sup>( [[User talk:Ixtal|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ixtal|C]] ) </sup> &#8258; <small> [[Non nobis solum]]. </small>♠ 19:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::That's a pretty good text! Probably combine it with [[:File:Wikipedia-logo-banner-ihojose.png]] as the image on the left and link create an account, while linking "a bunch of easy tasks" to either [[Wikipedia:Task Center]], [[Template:W-graphical]], or, if we're feeling adventurous, [[Wikipedia:Dashboard]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 19:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[File:Active_editors_at_the_English_Wikipedia_2001–2023.png|thumb|Active editors at the English Wikipedia 2001–2023]]<br />
:::@[[User:Ca|Ca]], the English Wikipedia has not been losing editors for a decade now. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thank you for the updated graph! All of the editor count graph has been horribly outdated. It's nice to see the editor count is at least not in decline. ♠ [[User:Ca|Ca]] <i><sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">[[User talk:Ca|talk to me!]]</sup></i> 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Just wondering, why has there been a yearly peak of active editors in March in every year since 2014 (except 2020)? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== [[WP:FULL|Goldlock]] [[WP:IAR]]? ==<br />
<br />
There's really no reason for people to be editing it. <span style="border-radius:9pt;border:solid 2px #008;padding:1px;background-color:#bff">[[User:2003 LN6|<span style="color:#b00">2003</span>]] [[User:2003LN6/t|<span style="color:#0b0">LN</span>]][[User:2003LN6/c|<span style="color:#00b">6</span>]]</span> 23:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Not seeing a reason to edit it is not, in itself, a reason for maximum page protection. There isn't any high-level vandalism, and some of the recent edits have been constructive (e.g. additions to the "See also" section). [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 23:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:cf. [[Wikipedia_talk:Ignore_all_rules#This_policy_is_perfect.|relevant talk page section]]:<br />
:{{warning|'''This page is perfect.'''<br/>Don't fuck with it!}} It's an extremely punk rock policy of us to have, and we're better off for it. But, alas, protecting it wouldn't be very punk rock of us, would it?? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 01:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:In the spirit of the page, we should put the lock template there, but not actually protect it :P ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 05:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Tallyho}} [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 09:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:There are some things where for the sake of keeping things unchanged, it's ironically better ''not'' to protect in this instance than it is to full-protect. <sub>Duly signed,</sub> '''[[User:WaltCip|⛵ <span style="color: white; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(white, blue, navy, black)">WaltClipper</span> ]]'''-''<small>([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]])</small>'' 16:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Against the spirit of [[WP:PREEMPTIVE]] [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I think [[WP:SPARE]] puts it pretty well -- {{tq|Protection should not be standard practice. It should only be done as a last resort, when failure to do so would stand in the way of the page's purpose to readers.}} <sub>Duly signed,</sub> '''[[User:WaltCip|⛵ <span style="color: white; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(white, blue, navy, black)">WaltClipper</span> ]]'''-''<small>([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]])</small>'' 13:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Maybe we should ignore those though. :-) '''[[User:J947|<span style="color: #1009bf;">J</span>]][[User talk:J947|<span style="color: #137412;">947</span>]]''' ‡ <sup>[[Special:Contribs/J947|edits]]</sup> 01:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::That would really be against the spirit of IAR, it's "ignore all rules if it would improve the encyclopedia", not "ignore all rules if you feel like it". [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 01:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Onboarding for new users? ==<br />
<br />
This was promted by a [https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/thread/2J32V233R72OWB5W2DKGXIGBPVC6Y75B/#QPP55RJYYLOTONO4HENABWMYKIFT5YP2 wikimedia-l thread]<br />
{{pb}}<br />
New users are given zero guidance and then get yelled at when the break the rules they didn't know about. Therefore, I propose that, after sign up, we make a page (perhaps something like [[H:INTRO]]?) that we then direct new signups to<br />
<br />
Two questions I have:<br />
{{pb}}<br />
#Will new users simply click away without learning anything?<br />
#How much will this help?<br />
As it stands, the current onboarding procedure is basically nothing: just set them out there and yell at them when they mess up. Something needs to change and I hope my proposal will generate some discussion on how to make the onboarding process better. <span class ="nowrap"><b>[[User:NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">NW1223</span>]]&lt;[[User talk:NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">Howl at me</span>]]&bull;[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">My hunts</span>]]&gt;</b></span> 01:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:The current onboarding procedure is to use [[Wikipedia:Welcoming committee]] templates and new users also get a newcomer home (see [[Wikipedia:Growth Team features]]). I'm pretty sure automatically sending new users welcome templates is at [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:00, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:: [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Use a bot to welcome new users]] is probably what you were thinking of. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 12:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Aaron highlighted the Growth team features. To summarize them, new users get [[Special:Homepage]] as their base-camp (you might have to activate it in your preferences). There, they have access to selected help links and, <br />
:::Some wikis also post a message at talk pages. From what I observe*, a successful welcome message requires the following:<br />
:::* it is a real message, not a block of links <br />
:::* it is clearly signed by a real human <br />
:::* it includes a clear indication "contact me if you have any question" <br />
:::* they are posted before the user make an edit (so that they can ask a question to the user who welcomed them**).<br />
:::Messages consisting of blocks of links are not successful ([[xkcd:773/|a known issue]]), in particular when the message look like a banner or something else than a discussion. Signatures have to be clear, as the way we format our messages on wikis is not something the rest of the works is used to. <br />
:::<small>* Of course, what I observe is not a proof of anything, but I observe a lot of newcomers/experienced users at a lot of wikis since a long time. :)</small><br />
:::<small>** This is how Mentorship works: you get a name to contact at Special:Homepage (but unfortunately, at your wiki, not everyone gets one as [[Wikipedia:Growth Team features/Mentor list|we don't have enough mentors]]).</small><br />
:::The discussion at wikimedia-l was more focused on explaining the rules while editing, which is also [[listarchive:list/[email protected]/message/RWQIXLQEBNC62THG5J4TY7OCHCKRAPUF/|something the Wikimedia Foundation works on]]. <br />
:::[[user:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek'''_'''(WMF)]] ([[user talk:Trizek (WMF)|talk]]) 15:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Since so many recent changes have the "newcomer task" tag, I think it's enabled by default for newcomers. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::It is default for all new accounts, correct. <br />
:::::But Mentorship is only available to 50% of new users for the reasons I explained, and a key feature to discover editing, [[mw:Help:Growth/Tools/Add_a_link|Add a link]], is still missing at your wiki. <br />
:::::[[user:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek'''_'''(WMF)]] ([[user talk:Trizek (WMF)|talk]]) 16:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:or we could just not yell at them... It is my personal opinion that a lot of our users have themselves forgotten they are on wiki that anyone can edit. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 21:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: I wish our policies had TL:DR versions of them too because some of them are very lengthy and I have no doubt that that's put some people off from editing here. <span>♠[[User:JCW555|<span style="color:purple">JCW555</span>]] [[User talk:JCW555|<span style="color: black">(talk)</span>]]</span>♠ 22:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Most policies have {{tl|nutshell}}, a summary, on top, and welcome templates already link many summaries, such as [[Help:Introduction]] and [[Help:Getting started]]. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Although experienced editors do make mistakes from time to time, in my experience, the vast majority of new editors who get "yelled at" are spammers, self promoters, POV pushers, axe grinders, conspiracy theorists and others whose manifest goals are not in alignment with improving this great encyclopedia. As I see things every day on the firing line, any editor who comes here with a genuine intent to neutrally improve this encyclopedia is almost always welcomed with open arms. So, when an editor puts forward vague assertions of "yelled at", I expect diffs and specific cases. Who in particular got "yelled at", ''and why''? [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 09:49, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::When I see an edit that degrades the encyclopedia, I revert it, and usually use Twinkle to leave a message on the user's page, with or without an additional comment. I think that kind of response is what some are calling "shouting". I will not leave unreverted an edit that damages the encyclopedia, no matter how well intentioned. I think the lowest levels of the Twinkle warnings are benign enough. I use the stronger versions of Twinkle warnings when a user repeats the same kind of edits after being warned. I block users who repeatedly over a short period of time make obviously problematic edits after being warned. It may be that new users don't see messages on their talk pages, but that is not a reason to allow them to continue to make edits that degrade the encyclopedia. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 14:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], how would you describe to an external observer how English Wikipedia welcomes good faith users with open arms? I'm asking it as finding how bad faith users are treated is easy (Donald gave a good example above), but examples of how one deals with good faith users is more difficult to find.<br />
:::::Actually, what I observed over the years is that vandalism or damageable edits get a warning message, while good faith edits are just left as they are, with no message, because they fit what is expected. <br />
:::::Thoughts? [[user:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek'''_'''(WMF)]] ([[user talk:Trizek (WMF)|talk]]) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Sometimes they get a thanks and they get a welcome if they're a new user. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::And {{tl|cookies}}! [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{u|Trizek (WMF)}}, we have places like the [[WP:TH|Teahouse]] and the [[WP:HD|Help Desk]] where new editors can get assistance, and they are easy to find given the amount of traffic they get. I have over 10,000 edits to the Teahouse and over 1,200 to the Help Desk, so I have considerable experience helping and encouraging new editors. Many new editors come to my talk page asking for advice. and I have 5,600 edits there. I agree that bad edits and those that make them get more attention in general than good editors making uncontroversial typo fixes, converting bare URLs into bibliographic references, and reverting vandalism. If I notice particularly good work from a new editor, I will definitely thank them. I think that a brief, personalized compliment is better than 100 "welcome templates". The analogy that comes to mind is that few people give detailed thanks to people doing routine work. Few people go into a McDonald's and lavishly compliment the people sweeping the floors, taking the orders and packaging up the french fries. We just treat them politely, with a "thanks" to the order taker being about the extent of it. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 20:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{u|Trizek (WMF)}}, I don't know if the WMF collects any statistics, but I wouldn't be surprised if the English Wikipedia gets more than its fair share of bad faith users, making experienced editors more cynical. At least if I were a spammer, self promoter, POV pusher, axe grinder, conspiracy theorist or any other bad faith user I'm sure I would prefer to target the largest Wikipedia that has the largest readership. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 20:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::@[[User:Aaron Liu|Aaron Liu]], is "sometimes" good enough? :)<br />
:::::::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], thank you for the details. I think volunteer-me have the same profile as yours, but at my wiki. I don't really count places mike the Help desk or the Teahouse as proofs of being welcomed, as these are places you have to discover (or at least find the link to them). Thanks are apparently only for "particularly good" edits as you said. Messages are often perceived as costly to create. What would you (any of you) do to show a user that they edit is going in the right direction, at low cost? <br />
:::::::@[[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]], I'd say the bigger the wiki, the more likely it is to attract people. But as I read it quite often, I kind of think there is a ''perception'' of a mass of bad faith users that damage things, while only a few users do it right. I'm not sure this is true: maybe there is a perception bias, as badly behaving users are way more visible than users who do things the right way, don't you think?<br />
:::::::[[user:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek'''_'''(WMF)]] ([[user talk:Trizek (WMF)|talk]]) 00:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I meant that they sometimes get a thanks and nearly always eventually get a welcome. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 00:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{tq2|examples of how one deals with good faith users..}}<br />
::::::*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine&oldid=1214452567#How_do_we_welcome_new_medical_editors? How do we welcome new medical editors?]<br />
::::::--[[User:Dustfreeworld|<span style="color: navy">'''Dustfreeworld'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Dustfreeworld|talk]]) 02:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{od}}{{u|Trizek (WMF)}}, there used to be a bot called HostBot that would send welcoming Teahouse invitations to new accounts in good standing that had made 10 edits within a few days. Sadly, the bot operator, [[User:Jtmorgan]], is far less active in recent years, and the bot no longer operates. Maybe you can look into that. <br />
<br />
If you take a look at the Home Page, you will see that the first prominent word is "Welcome". The prominent phrase "anyone can edit" links to [[Help:Introduction to Wikipedia]]. There is a prominent link to [[Help:Contents]] on the Home Page, which links to many other help pages. Further down are links to the Community Portal, the Village Pump, the Teahouse, the Help Desk, the Reference Desks, and so on. In other words, the page that new editors first see shouts "Welcome! How can we help you?" I know about [[banner blindness]] but I doubt if it would make much difference if we displayed "WELCOME" in bold, bright orange all caps, flashing and flickering. It wouldn't help and it would make us look ridiculous. <br />
<br />
Most new accounts do not ever edit. Of those that do, most of those make only a handful of edits and then lose interest. Of those that continue editing, a significant percentage have motivations incompatible with the goals of the project as I described above. Of those who really want to improve the encyclopedia, many are here to create or improve one or two articles about topics of great interest to that person, and then they stop editing. Student editors are here to get a good grade, and only a tiny percentage continue after the course is over. People go to edit-a-thons to satisfy their curiosity, meet cool people and get some free food. Only a tiny percentage keep editing. <br />
<br />
I have been wondering for nearly 15 years what the positive [[psychosocial]] factors are that separate all those types of people who contribute little or no encyclopedic content from the "rare beasts" who make improving this encyclopedia in countless ways an avocation for many years. I cannot answer that question with confidence although I have my pet theories. I hope that the WMF could make that research happen but I do not know. <br />
<br />
As an adminstrator, I believe that blocking bad actors like harassers, vandals, spammers and the like is essential, because showing such people the door makes the editing environment more hospitable. And so I am not ashamed to have blocked nearly 10,000 accounts. I think my work in that area makes Wikipedia a more welcoming place. I think I have said enough so I will stop now. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 02:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There's been some research on the psychological profile of Wikipedians. I am not sure you would consider the factors to be "positive", but if memory serves, we are above average for neuroticism and below average for agreeableness. In plain English: we start editing because there's a typo, we would rather be right and have an argument than go along with something that's wrong. We also don't like change. This all aligns with my experience. How about you? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I like change and demand a link to such a study immediately >:( [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], thank you for your detailed answer. You describe what I would call "passive welcoming": various signs, at various places that convey the idea of welcoming others. At the opposite, "active welcoming" goes more on the way of telling users personally that you can mentor them, thank users for their edits, etc. This is something you do, and I believe it is super important. <br />
:It tights to [[Reinforcement#Positive reinforcement|positive reinforcement]]: someone getting a positive stimulus on their edits are more likely to continue participating. If that positive discourse comes from a human, it has way more chances to be received and appreciated, compared to one coming from an information message on static page. <br />
:Following what @[[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] said or what @[[User:Dustfreeworld|Dustfreeworld]] illustrated above, we, communities, are apparently very good at saying when something gets wrong. Worse, we are very good at qualifying one edit as not good even if just a part of it is not good. Reverting seems to be sometimes easier than fixing up an edit. And I'm not talking of vandals and trolls there: my focus is on users who genuinely came to fix something and saw "be bold" written at various places. <br />
:This topic started with the question of onboarding new users, but it is also on how to keep them editing. As we are in the ideas lab, I'm looking for your ideas: what would you (any of you) do to show a user that they edit is going in the right direction, at low cost? What do you miss to encourage users in an easy way? <br />
:[[user:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek'''_'''(WMF)]] ([[user talk:Trizek (WMF)|talk]]) 16:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:Trizek (WMF)|Trizek (WMF)]], thanks for the ping :-) I’m not sure if I can give much useful comment about your questions, because I’m facing issues very similar to those described in the “How do we ... “ discussion myself as well… ... {{pb}}<br />
::My problem is, there’s a user who really doesn’t like me. It seems that my edits are being watched. When they think there’s an “opportunity”, they will suddenly “jump out”, sometimes just within minutes after my edit, nominate the article I edited for AFD, or have half of an article deleted, or criticise me on talk page and have the thread I opened being closed, or, directly yelling at me that “You’re sprouting ... “, etc. All within a short time / same day, like heart attacks. You can’t feel the stress/threats just from viewing the page history unless you’ve experienced them (and that can only be felt from those notifications popping up). And when I tried to restore the removed content, I faced 3RR and 2 warnings, all within minutes; followed immediately by very unpleasant “discussion”/criticism on the project’s talk page.{{pb}}<br />
::When I look up the warning templates pages [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_index/User_talk_namespace/Multi-level_templates][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_index/User_talk_namespace/Single-level_templates], I can’t find the warning template that they used. There is no such (level 4) warning template which says “restoring good-faith content is disruptive” (not to mention those are sourced long-standing content not added by me). It seems that they have “tailor-made”/created their own version of warning message for me.{{pb}}<br />
::If I were a new user, I would have been threatened and left already. Definitely, with no doubt. I’m quite sure that they have done similar tricks (3RR + level 3/4 warnings) to other good-faith editors as well. (This differs greatly from most other editors do, like providing a detailed edit summary, just remove one or two sentences/sources at a time unless they are doing a rewrite, tagging it first, try fixing the problem first, discuss civilly on talk page first, and only remove outright contentious bad content like those involving BLPs, etc.){{pb}}<br />
::But I can understand why other users may not notice that or can’t see the problem because one can’t feel the tension just from viewing the page history, or, they might not understand how bad I felt when I saw large amount of valuable content that had been there over a decade was deleted mainly because of me. I came here to improve articles and to add content, not making them vanish. That completely goes opposite with the reasons that I’m here. What they did do affect my editing. I’ve left WP for a few days because of that, but it seems no use. Some of the above happened after I came back. I’ve asked for advice on another editor’s talk page, it seems that I was misunderstood. I was mainly asking for suggestions on the likely animus / uncivil behaviour, not on article’s content. I regret having asked that.. yes, my fault.. it was misunderstood.. and it seems that I’ve put someone in a difficult situation, which is not what I intended ... (As a side note, if we’re talking about content, removing a large amount of content at a time of course is not good. No one knows everything about every subject, and everyone makes mistakes. Removal like that will just increase the risk of mistaken removal, even when done in good-faith, without leaving the chance for correction).{{pb}}<br />
::I won’t deny that perhaps some of my edits/comments had irritated that user .. but I don’t think what they did is the way to go. Perhaps they just want to prove that “See? The article has problems that you didn’t notice and I’m correcting them now.”? I hope that can come to an end.. but that kind of behaviour has been lasting for quite some time already, and I’m not that optimistic ….. I choose to speak up here, anyway. What also troubled me is their fluctuating attitude/behaviour. Sometimes they seem to be very civil (mostly to others, but once or twice to me also). But when they are unhappy / don’t like you, it’s just totally different. I’ve been told to “find way” to like them, but it’s just too difficult.. I have tried not to escalate during the discussions (if you are familiar with my edits you’ll know how assertive I can be) but I wonder if that helped. I hope I’ve made it clearer now on why I said “I’ve tried my best already”. It’s not about “discovering the value of others”. Nothing like that. You can’t really like someone if they treat you (and others?) like that, no matter whatever value they have ... {{pb}}<br />
::Back to the “How do we welcome new medical editors?” thread at WP:MED talk page.. well, I think that user (one different from the above) has taken some of the advice in that discussion and probably has become more civil (as seen from their comments at least) now. And they have never been uncivil to me, which I really appreciate; despite the fact that I’ve pointed out several times what they shouldn’t have done. I believe that’s an editor with good intention. For that I’ve even given them a barnstar. So, perhaps I should go on and start a new discussion called “How do we work with our newly-joined colleagues?” Do we work with them by ... 3RR … warnings ... following … ?” I don’t think I have the energy (or should spend the time) for that though .. after all, it’s just Wikipedia .. {{pb}}<br />
::(N.B. I’m talking to myself and reply is welcome but not absolutely needed.. I’m not providing any diff, because I really don’t want to piss people off… if you know you know, anyway ..) --[[User:Dustfreeworld|<span style="color: navy">'''Dustfreeworld'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Dustfreeworld|talk]]) 18:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[WP:Wikihounding]] is against policy. You might want to consult someone to see if it fits. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 18:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Providing public rationale for speedy deletion ==<br />
<br />
I feel like it could be beneficial to editors looking to recreate a page that was previously speedily deleted for them to see rationale from the remover to help them better understand why they might not want to recreate it. This wouldn't be a requirement for performing a speedy deletion, though, and should probably be separate from the existing '''rationale''' parameter. [[User:Kolventra|Kolventra]] ([[User talk:Kolventra|talk]]) 00:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Isn't this already done? When creating a page that was previously deleted (or even just viewing it), you see the deletion log in a red box above the editing area (or under the exclamation mark button in visual editor), which includes the deletion reason. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::No, the deletion log only shows under what criterion it was speedily deleted, but not anything the deleter gives as rationale. In my case, I deleted a redirect page with the criteria that I was the author requesting removal, as no other criterion matched what my purpose was as closely, so I wanted to provide a little more in-depth of a reasoning for the deletion. [[User:Kolventra|Kolventra]] ([[User talk:Kolventra|talk]]) 01:56, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[WP:G7]] is author-requested deletion. When further explanation is needed, it'd also be given in the deletion log. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Back when I was in the business of handling CSD requests, I sometimes put an extra sentence in the deletion log entry to explain more fully why a CSD criterion applied. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 09:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::{{tqb|text='''When deleting''' a page through the speedy deletion process, please specify the reason for deletion in the deletion summary, so that it will be recorded into the [[Special:Log/delete|deletion log]].|source={{slink|Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Procedure for administrators}}}} [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Workshopping a trial admin process ==<br />
<br />
In [[WP:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I]], I proposed trial adminship but it appeared that the proposal was not quite ready. I want to figure how can we have a trial admin process that is most likely to hold well with the community. There definitely should be a method for there to be trial admins when consensus is unclear or to dispel any doubts about current user conduct. Or maybe trial adminship should be the only result of an RfA. I do not know. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 18:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The framework that I think has the best chance would be a kind of limited adminship. I would make a permission, requestable at [[WP:Perm]] and grantable/removable by a single admin as appropriate. The permission is designed to counteract vandalism and be used by a new change patroller. The permissions would be:<br />
:Block any account that is not autoconfirmed for a short time (37 hours?)<br />
:Semi-protect any page for a short time (probably same time frame as blocking)<br />
:Delete any recently-created page.<br />
:This gives these permission holders the full block/protect/delete triad to avoid the law of the instrument. It also gives them enough ability to break up most common/simple cases without letting them get into a lot of situations where they generate controversy.<br />
:The permission would NOT have viewdeleted. This is awkward because they could delete a page and not have any way to revisit it, but it is a WMF requirement for any process that didn't go through a full RfA or similar. <br />
:The way the actual restrictions on the perms are enforced could be technical or social. If they have the technical ability to make any block, but there's a brightline policy against it and a bot that reports any discrepancy to AN, I think that's still fine.<br />
:I know this isn't exactly what you had in mind from trial adminship (giving the full tools and a period of time to use them before some kind of reconfirmation), but I think it's the best way to practically solve some of these issues. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 18:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::That feels like a pretty good idea, as making it a perm removes the need for a double RfA, and it can still show experience and trust in light of a future RfA. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 19:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::On many Fandom wikis, there is this right called "content moderator". This right gives users the ability to edit fully protected pages (but not interface pages), delete/restore pages, rollback, and protect pages. We can have something similar particularly for those extremely familiar with the deletion policy. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 03:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, but having the ability to protect/delete but not the ability to block suffers from the [[law of the instrument]]. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 14:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::That is indeed a problem, but I don't think it is that big of a problem when other administrators are able to immediately intervene when there is an incident of disruption going on. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 16:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::That's not the issue. It's not about "they can't block and will have to wait for other admins", it's "they can't block and thus will likely protect instead of blocking, which is often not ideal". [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 16:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{unindent}}<br />
I am thinking any trial admin process needs to allow users to demonstrate that they know how to act appropriately with the admin tools. Conduct as a non-admin is not necessarily an indicator as to whether they will behave that same way with the admin tools. In fact, people are more likely to be careful when given the tools just because they know the community can easily take the tools away. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 20:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I can think of lots of ways to do this. The trail admin might be paired with a full admin who would supervise the, trial admin. More high powered use of the tools might be reported to a notice board, Blocks might be limited to 24 hours to give a full admin time review, assuming a longer block is appropriate. The whole trial admin concept itself might be done a trial, say one year with a pause after to evaluate how it went.--[[User:ArnoldReinhold|agr]] ([[User talk:ArnoldReinhold|talk]]) 21:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::What do you have in mind when you say "supervise"? [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 02:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I like the idea in general. The details would need work. There's nothing that precludes working on this even if it outside the main current review. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Proposal: preference to hide maintenance tags ==<br />
{{moved from|WP:VPR}}<br />
For many Wikipedia readers, maintenance tags are annoying to see. While [[WP:OVERTAG]] does try to mitigate this, it would be great if there was an option in preferences to hide maintenance tags. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 06:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:That's something you could probably do with a CSS gadget. Most readers don't have an account though, and I think maintenance tags do the important job of warning that the article isn't up-to-quality or even is misleading. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Note: {{ping|Pksois23}} this is not currently an actionable proposal, hard moved from VPR. Feel free to continue discussing here. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Got it. Side note, VPR links to Vermont Public Co. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 14:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Fixed VPR link. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 14:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Agreed with Aaron. Maintenance tags present information that's important for readers to know (and to the extent they don't, they should be removed), so we don't want to make hiding them at all a default option. And for those who really want to anyways, despite the information literacy risk, there's already CSS. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 15:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Another possible way to do this would be to have a hide button like ''[hide]'' next to the tags [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 14:23, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::One world still have to click it everywhere. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*So we want to ''hide'' problems with articles from readers. Please, no. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 15:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:It's an option, so we aren't deliberately hiding anything. As long as it's unobtrusive it won't do any harm [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 11:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Hiding them does harm!!!! Then readers won't know what the issues with the article are!! [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 13:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I can sympathize with the tags being "annoying", they often are. But that's the thing: they're ''supposed to be''. Their purpose is to make sure the reader isn't accidentally misled by content that may not be up to our usual standards. They're supposed to be noticeable. That said, I wouldn't mind a userscript or CSS that could show/hide them for logged-in users who know what they want, similar to what we have for CS1 errors in citations at [[Help:CS1 errors]]. I also think it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a deeper look into whether our maintenance tags should have their appearances updated for modern aesthetics. I don't think there's anything wrong with the old classic look (I still use Monobook unless I'm updating page layouts where I'd need to check other skins) but as long as they stay noticeable I think consensus for a redesign pass could probably be achievable. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 16:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There was {{tl|mbox/sandbox}}, which changed the icons used (see [[Template:Ambox/testcases#name= text=text 2]] for how it looks), but the community didn't like it. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I remember a few proposals to update the boxes, but if I'm remembering right most of them were fairly small changes, backend stuff or accessibility. I don't think there's been a comprehensive major overhaul attempt in a while, but its possible I missed that discussion. Would you happen to have a link to the discussion for the last round? <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 16:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Scrounged a bit for this, it's at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 37#Changing to flat icons]] which also links to the same failed proposal's discussion in 2020. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{tq|For many Wikipedia readers, maintenance tags are annoying to see}}. I have literally never seen a person IRL express this sentiment, nor any comments from new/ip users calling tags ugly at the [[WP:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the like. [[User talk:Mach61|Mach61]] 23:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Neither have I. I've also not seen any complaints (in real life or on wiki) from readers saying that they really missed the maintenance banners when they were hidden (for years and years) on the mobile site.<br />
::I'm seeing comments above like {{xt|Maintenance tags present information that's important for readers to know}} – dubious, discuss? We have [[WP:No disclaimers in articles]]. Maintenance tags present information that's important for ''people doing maintenance work'' to know. That could include readers (aka "potential editors").<br />
::I think what we might need is a shared understanding of what the purpose of these banners is. Is it really to make sure readers {{xt|know what the issues with the article are}}? If so, then a whole lot of tags need removing, because they're not actually problems that readers should care about. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::If we really want to pursue that path of hiding unimportant tags, things get complicated, and the simplest solution would involve excluding IPs from seeing such tags. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The guideline you listed specifically lists cleanup templates as "acceptable disclaimers" that are considered an exception. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 03:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I think WAID is arguing based on principle. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
I think the public is used to our tags and they serve a cautionary purpose. In particular I've seen the phrase "citation needed" used outside a Wikipedia context and it is becoming part of the language. There is room for improvement in the tagging system. In particular I think some of the more contentious tags should always be accompanied with a new section in the talk page. No drive-by tagging. --[[User:ArnoldReinhold|agr]] ([[User talk:ArnoldReinhold|talk]]) 21:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[https://xkcd.com/285/ There's even a XKCD about it!] [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 10:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Changing {{tl|Broken anchors}} to the pattern of {{tl|dead link}} ==<br />
<br />
Hi all. [[User:Soni]] suggested changing {{tl|Broken anchors}} to the pattern of {{tl|dead link}}. I think this is a good idea. Since this task affects all [[:Category:Pages with broken anchors]] pages, I'm here to ask for your opinion on this suggestion. If it goes well, I'll be ready to start modifying it. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 07:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Do you mean to change it to a tag that will be displayed in the article? Wouldn't that look very weird, since anchors are invisible? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::These are links to anchors, rather than the anchors themselves. The issue is anchors get changed, but the links to them don't. So there are 70,000+ articles with such broken links. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 16:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh. In that case I agree. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Can you explain further? I'm unclear on what change is being proposed. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::To change the current system for tagging broken anchors into a {{tl|fix}} template put after wikilinks to nonexistent anchors. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 18:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::At the moment the {{tl|Broken anchors}} template is added to the talk pages of articles that have links to non-existent anchors. From my reading the proposal is to replace this with an inline template directly after the broken link, similar to how {{tl|dead link}} is used to mark broken weblinks. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 18:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{ping|Kanashimi}} can you please confirm whether your proposal is as described by ActivelyDisinterested, perhaps with a before and after example? [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Thanks for joining the discussion. I did a demo edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havana_syndrome_outside_Cuba&redirect=no here]. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 23:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Sorry, I still don't understand what you are proposing to do. Is Cewbot intended to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havana_syndrome_outside_Cuba&diff=prev&oldid=1214431458 make edits that show how to invoke a template], rather than invoking the template? [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 23:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Cewbot is supposed to stop adding these banners altogether and use a {{tl|fix}} template to mark wikilinks to broken anchors. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 23:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::It looks like you're in favor of changing it to {{tl|broken anchor}}? [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 23:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::That's not what appears in the link that Kanashimi provided. Perhaps you can let them explain their proposal? I still don't understand what is the current situation, and the proposed new situation. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 23:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::This discussion started [[User talk:Kanashimi#Broken anchor edits]]. Perhaps you could take a look at what [[User:Soni]] has to say. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 23:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I am very confused. Is the proposal not to replace Cewbot's current talk-page-banner mechanism with one that puts {{tl|broken anchor}} after links to broken anchors? That is what appears in the link (Note that Cewbot's first edit was wrong and Kanashimi fixed it.), and that's what appears on Kanashimi's talk page:{{tqb|text=Personally I'd just add a template to the main article page, like Template:citation needed shows up inline. That way it's immediately obvious to editors where the potential anchor is.|by=Soni}} [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 23:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::OK, so that sounds like what ActivelyDisinterested said. Is that correct? [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 23:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yes, if the bot can't fix it, it will insert {{tl|Broken anchor}} after the link or template. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::There was a mistake in the test settings, so I changed them manually. The current version is the one that will be available after the robot modification. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 23:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:To re-cap:<br />
:Imagine an article that contains a link to [[Example#typo_here]]. This is a working link to an article, but there's no section called ==typo here== in the article.<br />
:* The current behavior is: A bot adds a note to the talk page to say that there's no section called ==typo here== in the linked article.<br />
:* The proposed behavior is: A bot adds a <sup>[broken anchor]</sup> template in the article, after the relevant link.<br />
:Is that right? [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::As far as I know, yep. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::That's pretty much it. The only distinction is that the bot currently adds {{[[:Template:broken anchors|broken anchors]]}} which resembles the talk page Wikiproject headers. My suggestion was to add [broken anchor] in the article and (additionally) maybe also adding a message in talk page. Like [[Talk:1st_Academy_Awards#External_links_modified]] from Internet Archive Bot. If we need something on the talk page, that's better than a banner. [[User:Soni|Soni]] ([[User talk:Soni|talk]]) 04:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Is the change going to move the template for the current 70,000+ pages? Perhaps it would be better to hide the visual appearance by default, while allowing editors to enable its display through a personal CSS file if desired. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 02:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I say just grandfather keep the talk-box version and make new versions the inline {{tl|fix}}. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Yes, this change will affect all 70K pages. I'm expecting the same behavior as {{tl|dead link}}, so I'll leave a marker to let users know to fix it manually. This is just like the behavior of {{tl|dead link}}. [[User:Kanashimi|Kanashimi]] ([[User talk:Kanashimi|talk]]) 03:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The problem with keeping the talk-box version grandfathered is that they are very hard to fix. As I mentioned in [[User_talk:Kanashimi#Broken_anchor_edits]], I manually tried editing 2-3 of them to see how it was. There's no easy way for a human to see the talk-box template and find the respective text that was actually broken. You have to search through the text of the article, look for history (just in case the text got changed but the broken anchor remained) and crosscheck that with the talk page itself.<br />
:::In fact, given how current automation works, you have no way to remove the talk-box notification when it's fixed. Of the articles I spot-checked, 2 were already fixed years ago, out of which one was even a redirect page. <br />
:::Essentially the 70K pages with talk box version will contain a lot of pages that are already fixed, and everything else will be tiresome. It's simpler to just shift to a new functionality and have the script rerun on the 70K pages. The backlog can then be semi-automated (using AWB/similar) and the main fixes will become a lot easier [[User:Soni|Soni]] ([[User talk:Soni|talk]]) 04:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Sure, but that can still be done while keeping the text hidden from readers by default (which I'm guessing was the original reason for placing the message on the talk page). [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 05:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::We don't keep {{tl|dead link}} hidden, so I don't think we should keep broken anchors hidden either. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::If we were starting from scratch, then perhaps the two should be handled in the same way, though I'm guessing that {{tl|dead link}} appears mostly in references, thus not affecting the visual appearance of the main content. But if the only discussion about this is on the idea lab village pump, then a lot of people will be surprised when thousands of indicators pop into existence. A more reader-friendly approach may be warranted. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 15:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I'd say these are no more intrusive than maintenance tags or {{tl|cn}}. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Agreed. I think it's not a big deal to put maintenance tags on talk page. I'd personally not attribute a lot of weight to why the template was originally written as it was, since it was basically "Because another template used this way" more than anything.<br />
::::::::I am okay if the template was hidden (in which case it may just as well be a single [[:Category:Articles with broken anchor]] link), but I think that's still less preferable than a tag similar to {{[[Template:cn|cn]]}} [[User:Soni|Soni]] ([[User talk:Soni|talk]]) 01:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Decade overviews ==<br />
<br />
I have set up [[:Category:decade overviews]] as a set of categories, as well as articles, and navboxes, as part of [[WP:HIST|WikiProject History]] Contemporary History task force, which I chair. <br />
<br />
Please feel free to contact me any time, with any comments, ideas or questions. thanks! --[[User:Sm8900|Sm8900]] ([[User talk:Sm8900|talk]]) 14:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Adding a byte count to both editors ==<br />
<br />
I have a hard time figuring out if my edits are minor or not, and usually I have to submit my edits to see the byte count. I think it would be helpful if we had a byte count display so we wouldn't have to make meaningless edits just to say that our previous edit was "Minor or '''''<u>NOT</u>''''' minor." [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 22:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Edits consisting solely of spelling corrections, formatting changes, rearrangement of text without modification of the content, [[WP:MOS]] changes, and reverting vandalism should be flagged as minor edits. Anything else is not a minor edit. The byte count doesn't matter, although minor edits usually have a small bytecount. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Also, keep in mind that nobody is going to criticize you for ''not'' marking an edit as minor, even if it ''is'' minor. Other editors only get annoyed when non-minor edits are marked as minor when they shouldn't be. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 23:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I still think it's a good idea. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 23:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Honestly, the best solution would be to remove the "minor edit" function entirely, as most people find its purpose and/or use confusing, for very little benefit as they're rarely marked. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 23:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:Chaotic Enby|Chaotic Enby]], I agree, but other editors don't (pretty sure there was a recent RfC on it that failed to pass). [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 23:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh, didn't know about that RfC, thanks for the info! [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 23:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Found two of the discussions: [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_186#Proposal_to_remove_"rearrangement_of_text"_from_definition_of_minor_edit.]] and [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_48#Completely_remove_the_idea_of_a_"minor_edit"]] I ''think'' there was a formal RfC after the most recent discussion but haven't found it. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 23:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Can you give me the link to that RfC? I really want to read it. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 23:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I still haven't found the one I'm thinking of; [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_177#RfC:_Disable_minor_edits_on_English_Wikipedia|this RfC]] was from 2021. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 23:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::It's alright. I have the info I need. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 01:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::BTW: Found it for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_177#RfC:_Disable_minor_edits_on_English_Wikipedia [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 01:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::That's the one Schazjmd linked from 2021. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::??? [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 02:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Check the link Schazjmd said in "I still haven't found the one I'm thinking of; this RfC was from 2021." above. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I found the specific one though. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 16:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Again, that's the same one that they linked. There's a link on "this RfC". [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Oh. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 19:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Another point that might be useful is: If you never use the 'minor edit' button, nobody will ever yell at you about it. Using it is strictly optional. Not using it is ''always'' acceptable. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 02:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
You DO know you can reply, right?[[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 07:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:??? A misplaced message from the future? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Split [[WP:DRV]] into two pages? ==<br />
<br />
[[WP:DRVPURPOSE]] gives five criteria for starting a new discussion. Of them, criteria 1-2 and 4-5 all involve some sort of wrongful action during the deletion process. But criterion 3, (which authorizes using the forum for when {{tq|significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page}}), has nothing to do with any mistake on part of the closer and/or deleting admin, and is generally used for when someone looking to recreate a page with new sources wants to avoid a {{t|db-g4}} tag and/or wants to have the original article refunded as a draft for reference. This in and of itself isn't a problem–DRV is still a low traffic forum–but I think that having both of these types of discussions in the same place has lead to a bit of a "culture clash". When a review under criterion 3 is started, there are often !votes to the effect of {{tq|'''Endorse''', deletion discussion was several years ago so [[WP:G4]] doesn't apply}}, even though that is completely unhelpful to the requester (especially if they want a drafted copy of the deleted article). <br />
<br />
Since legitimate criterion 3 reviews are quickly approved, I think we should split them off into a "Possibly controversial undeletions" section of [[WP:RFU]] or a new [[Wikipedia:Requests for recreation]] page, where requests can unilaterally be fufilled by a single administrator without substantial discussion, and keep genuine deletion challenges at DRV. [[User talk:Mach61|Mach61]] 04:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Problem is, a lot of requests can not fit the uncontroversial criteria, and all evaluations will undergo the same kind of review by people, even if we split to another venue. I think the page should be kept as-is. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Captchas ==<br />
<br />
I think we need more complicated CAPTCHAS in case a more complex bot comes on to the system and tries to log in [[User:Amoxicillin on a Boat|Amoxicillin on a Boat]] ([[User talk:Amoxicillin on a Boat|talk]]) 14:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Our CAPTCHA system is not managed locally here on the English Wikipedia. There are several idea open for changing CAPTCHAS, you can review them [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/confirmedit_captcha_extension/ here] (including possibly using reCaptcha v3). — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Our current system has been enough for the last ten years. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::The current system is an impediment for some impaired persons. reCAPTCHA v3 may be better; here's a [https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3524010.3539498 study on its effectiveness for those with visual impairments]. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 15:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::That's a good point, but I'm pretty sure our current captcha was developed so we wouldn't have to use Google. Maybe hcaptcha? It has a special sign up thing where you can get a cookie to skip all hcaptchas for the visually ipmaired. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Feel free to give feedback to the MediaWiki devs. [[phab:T6845]] is a ticket on accessibility of CAPTCHA; [[phab:T250227]] is a ticket on using hCaptcha; and there are a number of other tickets at the link Xaosflux provided. Yes, the sticking point is how to keep user information private, which hinders dropping in a third-party solution. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 16:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::There's a CAPTCHA? [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 19:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::It only appears sometimes, like when the IP address has too much editing activity, when the edit triggers certain edit filters, and after too many failed login attempts. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::That may need to be expanded upon. BTW, possible vandalism in [[Just Shoot Me!]] - Missing Neilsen Awards. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 22:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Not sure what you mean. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::The list of things that trigger CAPTCHAs needs to be expanded to things like creating an account (Speculation, IDK much about bots) or stuff like that. [[User:3.14159265459AAAs|3.14]] ([[User talk:3.14159265459AAAs|talk]]) 01:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== WikiNLP ==<br />
<br />
This is the concept of a machine learning-assisted countervandalism tool, made using Natural Language Processing (NLP). We will train the system to distinguish vandalism from constructive edits; the system will then share the data with countervandalism users and bots such as [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]]. If it works as intended, it has the potential to significantly reduce vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/2804:14D:72B3:9F5D:0:0:0:1F54|2804:14D:72B3:9F5D:0:0:0:1F54]] ([[User talk:2804:14D:72B3:9F5D:0:0:0:1F54|talk]]) 17:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Great idea, but isn't this already [[mw:ORES]]? [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:: It's also the already mentioned ClueBot. [[User:OverlordQ|<span style="color:#171788;font-weight:bold">Q</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:OverlordQ|T]] [[Special:Contributions/OverlordQ|C]]</sup> 17:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Unpacking the infobox ==<br />
<br />
Sometimes I run across an article where the infobox has been packed up in a tight wad of code that requires much more effort for an editor like me to analyze. Should we have a global 'bot' edit those into a more human-readable form? I think that would make it much easier for editors to maintain and expand. Here's an example edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NGC_2523B&diff=1215012630&oldid=1214766725 . I've seen much worse. Thanks. [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 16:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:We can start with a regex like <code><nowiki>\{\{ ?[Ii]nfobox.*?(?:[^\n ]|[^\n] )(\|).*?(?:\{\{|\}\})</nowiki></code> (and replace the captured group with <code><nowiki>\n\|</nowiki></code>), with the caveat that it doesn't work if other templates are nested in the infobox as regex (a glorified finite-state automaton) cannot count nested brackets. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotıċ <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:30deg;color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 17:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Such a bot would be against [[WP:COSMETICBOT]]. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 20:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&diff=1215090046Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)2024-03-23T01:01:44Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Deprecating new unsourced articles */ o</p>
<hr />
<div>{{redirect|WP:PROPOSE|proposing article deletion|Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|and|Wikipedia:Deletion requests}}<br />
<noinclude>{{short description|Discussion page for new proposals}}{{pp-move-indef}}{{Village pump page header|Proposals|alpha=yes|<br />
The '''proposals''' section of the [[Wikipedia:Village pump|village pump]] is used to offer specific changes for discussion. ''Before submitting'':<br />
* Check to see whether your proposal is already described at '''[[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals|Perennial proposals]]'''. You may also wish to search the [[Wikipedia:FAQ index|FAQ]].<br />
* This page is for '''concrete, actionable''' proposals. Consider developing earlier-stage proposals at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)|Village pump (idea lab)]].<br />
* Proposed '''policy''' changes belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)|Village pump (policy)]].<br />
* Proposed '''speedy deletion criteria''' belong at [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion]].<br />
* Proposed '''WikiProjects''' or '''task forces''' may be submitted at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals]].<br />
* Proposed '''new wikis''' belong at [[meta:Proposals for new projects]].<br />
* Proposed '''new articles''' belong at [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]].<br />
* Discussions or proposals which warrant the '''attention or involvement of the Wikimedia Foundation''' belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)]].<br />
* '''Software''' changes which have consensus should be filed at [[phabricator:|Phabricator]].<br />
Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for nine days.<br />
<!-- Villagepumppages intro end -->|WP:VPR|WP:VP/PR|WP:VPPRO|WP:PROPS}}__NEWSECTIONLINK__<br />
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__TOC__<br />
{{anchor|below_toc}}<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia village pump]]<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia proposals| ]]<br />
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<br />
== RfC: Converting all current and future community discretionary sanctions to (community designated) contentious topics procedure ==<br />
{{anchor|RfC:_Converting_all_current_and_future_general_sanctions_to_(community_designated)_contentious_topics_procedure|rfc_3C022D9|rfc_E7BE9C3}}<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 19:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1712948477}}<br />
{{rfc|policy|prop|rfcid=B8F09A8}}<br />
Should all community discretionary sanctions (DS) be updated to use the new contentious topics procedure? [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] Refreshed 01:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC) 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC) <br />
<br />
=== Background ===<br />
<br />
In late 2022/early 2023, the [[WP:DSOLD|discretionary sanctions]] procedure was overhauled by ArbCom and converted to "[[WP:CTOP|contentious topics]]". With now two different processes for two different kinds of sanctions there is now a lot of fragmentation and inconsistency in how contentious topics should be handled, with even conflicting wording. The main goal of this RfC is to unify the procedure used for all areas where general sanctions are in effect with the one designated by ArbCom, going forward.<br />
<br />
As proposed at this time, there will be the some similarities and differences between community and arbitration contentious topics, including:<br />
* The imposition of the standard set of restrictions by consensus of administrators in a community designated topic would be at [[WP:ANI]] rather than [[WP:AE]].<br />
* Reconsideration of contentious topic restrictions would be done at [[WP:AN]] instead of at [[WP:AE]] or [[WP:ARCA]].<br />
* Awareness of a community contentious topic would include but not be limited to being mentioned in the discussion closing summary regarding that contentious topic, which is the closest there is to a "final decision".<br />
<br />
And of course, ArbCom would be able to convert community contentious topics to those designated by the committee, after which all the ArbCom venues would have to be used from that point forward, though existing restrictions would remain appealable to [[WP:AN]] until renewed at ArbCom.<br />
<br />
=== Survey (community contentious topics) ===<br />
* '''Support''' as proposer. It needs to be clear, especially for new editors, what contentious topics are and what the expectations are for editing topics designated as contentious by either ArbCom or the community. A unified procedure will ensure consistency rather than fragmentation and will make editing the list of contentious topics and their restrictions much easier. (I did do a little bit of work in the [[Module:Sanctions/sandbox]] adding in support for ArbCom contentious topics, as it would make it so much easier to use the related sanction templates. I also did work in user space to help envision what a unified contentious topics page might look like.) [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong Oppose''' The current iteration of [[WP:CTOP]] is far too tied in to the Arbitration Committee. The available sanctions and procedures are under the jurisdiction of [[WP:AC/PR]] can be modified by the Committee by motion at any time, which in this scenario would be binding on decisions made by the community without community consensus. Additionally, many of the General Sanctions areas have a set of restrictions that either exceed what CTOP would allow, or have a more limited subset of them. The community currently has the flexibility to customize sanctions based on the needs of the individual topic area (similar to how Arbcom can impose their own restrictions either alone or on top of the CTOP designation), rather than relying on a "one size fits all" solution. Regarding the possibility of Arbcom choosing to convert community-based CTOP to Arbitration Enforcement, the Committee already has the power to supercede and convert General Sanctions. They've done so before, in cases including [[WP:ARBCC]] and [[WP:ARBTPM]]. This proposal as written would reduce the community's autonomy and flexibility for the sake of consistency, and I don't see that as a net positive.{{pb<br />
}}I would, however, support the community adopting a "standard/default" DS language that could be used when customization isn't needed, and reviewing all the existing GS areas to see if they should be abolished or modernized. Updating our own process, templates, info pages etc to completely separate from the Arbcom version would also accomplish this proposal's goal of reducing confusion and would be better than the current system of ''sometimes linking to CTOP, sometimes linking DS which redirects to CTOP (when they really mean the older version of DS), sometimes a completely different thing with no consistency''. [[Template:Gs/alert]] is one example of this, where it links to [[WP:CTOP]] even when the actual restrictions are unrelated to that designation. Revamping our own procedures would be a better way to reduce fragmentation and confusion than glomming onto what Arbcom chooses to do. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 18:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I am not exactly seeing how this is a dealbreaker. The CT procedure applies only to designated contentious topics; community consensus or arbitration remedies can always add additional sanctions regardless of [[WP:CTOP]] like in [[WP:ARBPIA]]. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 22:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' The phrase "discretionary sanctions" is not clear and so the phrase "contentious topics" was introduced as an improvement. We should have clear and consistent language for contentious matters so that discussions and actions are comprehensible. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 08:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The "sanctions regimes" are too complex as it is, and we need to use consistent terminology to reduce that complexity when possible. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The [[WP:CTOP|contentious topics procedure]] incorporates [[WP:CT/DS|all of the improvements]] from the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review|2021-22 review of the discretionary sanctions procedure]]. Compared to the [[WP:OLDDS|discretionary sanctions procedure]], the contentious topics procedure is much easier to understand and follow. For example, many editors currently [[WP:OLDDS#aware.aware|need to be reminded of topic areas under community sanctions every 12 months]] to be eligible for certain remedies, which [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review/Consultation#Awareness|led to complaints in the 2021-22 review]]. Switching from discretionary sanctions to contentious topics would eliminate this requirement: {{xt|"[[WP:CT/DS#Awareness of contentious topics|Editors no longer need to be alerted every 12 months, as they are presumed to remain aware after their first alert.]]"}} —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' making the rules clear and consistent to all users. A big part of the problems I've had with DS is that I couldn't tell what was expected of me. No comment on whether this new way of doing things is better or worse than the old one, but it sounds like this isn't that conversation. I 100% support clear and proactive explanations of what Wikipedia does and does not want from its editors. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 16:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' making the rules clear and consistent for all editors. [[User:Let&#39;srun|Let&#39;srun]] ([[User talk:Let&#39;srun|talk]]) 19:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' standardization — as is, the current discrepancy is an unintended relic, not a feature. Community-imposed vs Arbcom-imposed sanctions is a clerical, technical distinction, and I cannot think of any good reason not to streamline the two into the same concept, for the sake of simplicity and understanding. [[User:Swarm|<span style="color:black">'''~Swarm~'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Swarm|<span style="color:DarkViolet">{sting}</span>]]</sup> 02:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Contentious topics is confusing enough by itself. Two similar but not identical rules is too much. I support any efforts to standardize our sanction systems. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 02:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' in the abstract – it might require some case-by-casing, but I think in general, having one set of rules for everyone is much cleaner and easier to understand for those trying to follow the road. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' (despite abstract support) as ANI has generally been the wrong forum for General Sanctions work. In my mind it should be a pump or AN and ANI should be out of the whole system. I also think it's a missed opportunity to not allow community GS to be heard at AE. There is already the community option for AN but this proposal would have created the option of using AE which is the forum many think about anyway. Outside of these details I'm supportive of the effort (given the fact that amongthe few who have expressed an opinion there seems to be overall support). [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 14:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' [[User:Иованъ|Ivan]] ([[User talk:Иованъ|talk]]) 20:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' - I don't have anything to add beyond what Galobtter said - perfectly expressed. —[[User:Ganesha811|Ganesha811]] ([[User talk:Ganesha811|talk]]) 01:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Discussion (community contentious topics) ===<br />
==== Cooperation of ArbCom ====<br />
I wonder if adding in stuff to the [[WP:CTOP]] page and similar would require the petition and referendum process. If so, then I guess the merging of templates would have to hold off until a former petition and request for amendment actually passes. It is possible ArbCom will green light the merge if this RfC passes, but I do not know. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I feel the community should work with the arbitration committee to assume responsibility for the contentious topic process, with a pointer to an arbitration-committee specific page where it can customize the process as it feels necessary. This would bring the process under community control, while still allowing the arbitration committee to adapt it to its needs. (There is no change to arbitration policy and so no need to amend it.) [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wouldn't that just be the status quo (or perhaps the old GS/DS) status quo? I think Arbcom is more agile than the community in drafting this kimd language given that passing a motion is easier than an RfC and motions can be adjusted mid vote which is nearly impossible to do with an RfC. Truthfully I think the right place to start is with the standardized language for community GS and perhaps to be more intentional about whether it wants its restrictions to be eligible to be heard at AE, though as The Wordsmith points out there are really good reasons for the community to decide not to do that. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 04:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The process for authorizing discretionary sanctions was documented by the committee, and then later the community started authorizing discretionary sanctions, with its process pointing to the Arbitration Committee pages and saying, "like that". This resulted in the community's process being coupled to decisions made by the arbitration committee. I'm suggesting the reverse: have the community assume responsibility for the contentious topics process, and then the arbitration committee can point to it and say, "like that, but with our specific customizations". I agree the community can decide on its own on what contentious topic process it wants to create. I think it would be good, though, to check with the committee that it is amenable to adopting the community process as a base, and layering any desired differences on top. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 04:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::That also sounds like a good idea: community authorizes the remedies that are appropriate, ArbCom implements them. If ArbCom were to deviate then they would just need to ask the community whether it is an appropriate deviation or not. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 17:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::The committee doesn't have to be constrained by the community as it is already authorized through the arbitration policy to enact remedies of its devising for matters within its scope. It would be simpler for editors to understand, though, if the arbitration committee version of the process was just a set of differences upon a common process. Differences could include things like additional administrator actions that could be performed, or a specific venue for appeals. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::I think you know what I mean :)<br />
::::::[[WP:ARBECR]] is already used a lot by both the community and by ArbCom, like in [[WP:RUSUKR]] and [[WP:CT/A-I]]. What I am saying is if ArbCom feels that a specific sanction that there has never been any precedent for is necessary, they should propose it to the community, where there then can be consensus on the exact wording. Placement, enforcement, and appeals are all going to differ though depending on whether the restriction is placed by the community or ArbCom. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 18:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::The community can provide feedback on proposed decisions. I disagree that the committee needs to obtain community consensus on new types of remedies. The arbitration committee is empowered to impose a restriction that community consensus has been unable to reach through prior dispute resolution. If you are referring specifically to the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Standard set|standard set of restrictions]] that can be imposed for designated contentious topics, I still disagree that community consensus should be mandatory. Typically the committee will provide an opportunity for feedback and the last review of discretionary sanctions illustrates that it strives to lighten the load of enforcing administrators. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:17, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Regarding the extended-confirmed restriction, it was initially devised by the committee on its own. After taking some time to evaluate its effectiveness, the community chose to adopt it as an available restriction. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I agree with isaacl that ARBPOL and CONEXEMPT explicitly mean that the committee does not have to, with-in its scope, get community consensus. {{pb}}However, ECR is a example of why I think the committee is better placed at the moment to be a leader when it comes to contentious topics. The committee having to deal with the absolute hardest conflicts means there is going to be more of an incentive to try something new and ~15 people are going to have an easier time getting to yes than what is required to get community consensus for that newness. It's also revealing to me that ArbCom gets more requests for us to assume community imposed sanctions (examples: COVID, Horn of Africa as two that the committee did assume and Russia-Ukraine War as one that committee has twice been asked to assume and haven't). I would really love it if the community could, as it does in so many other ways, demonstrate broader capabilities when it comes to general sanctions than it has in the past. And to that end getting consensus for some standard wording would be a great place to start. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 19:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I agree that the arbitration committee is better positioned to try new approaches (consensus doesn't scale up well, so getting consensus amongst 15 people is definitely easier). In a similar vein as you expressed, I feel it would be ideal for the community to agree on a base contentious topics process, which the committee could extend in new ways that the community could later choose to incorporate back into the base process. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
In [[WP:DS2022]], one of the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review#AE noticeboard|changes made]] was to allow the community to make use of AE. I think we should do so. <b style="font-family:Courier New;">[[User:HouseBlaster|House]][[Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster|<span style="color:#7D066B;">Blaster</span>]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:HouseBlaster|talk]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/him) 03:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I definitely think we should split contentious topics from [[WP:AELOG]]. A separate contentious topics log would make restrictions much easier to follow - and, if the restriction is rescinded or converted from community to ArbCom or the other way around - it can be logged as well. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 21:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Request revision to initial question ====<br />
The statement {{tq|all community general sanctions (DS)}} in the initial question is misleading. "General sanctions" is not synonymous with community authorization for discretionary sanctions. I think the intent should be clarified that the proposal only affects discretionary sanctions authorized by the community, and not all general sanctions. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{u|Isaacl}} Done. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 20:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Tag Refreshed ====<br />
I refreshed the RfC tag because there is not enough input to gauge consensus. Could this be because this is uncontroversial or what? [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 19:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Could well be :) [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 10:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I think it's because many editors simply don't know what's going on. I didn't know this discussion was taking place. I'm still not sure what the change in policy ''is'', only that, if it has been changed, the system should be clear about it. Are we dissolving Discretionary Sanctions? Is AE not going to be a thing any more? Is it merging with ANI? [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 22:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] The question is really just about making community sanctions use the new contentious topics procedure. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 23:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Okay. What is the new CT procedure? Do you know how it's different? I just read through one of the links that Newslinger provided above, and I'm having trouble picking out differences. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 00:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::For full details, see [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics]]. It's basically a renamed version of discretionary sanctions, with changes made based on community feedback received during the 2021–22 review of discretionary sanctions. Some highlights: there is a [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Standard set|standard set of restrictions]] that a single administrator can impose on their own discretion. Restrictions outside of these can be imposed by a consensus discussion at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Sanctions are no longer limited to one year, but after a year, sanctions that were imposed by a single adminstrator no longer have to be discussed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard to be modified. <del>Users no longer have to be made aware of each specific topic area. They only have to be notified once using a specific template about the contentious topic system.</del> <small>Striking out inaccurate description.</small> [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 01:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{tq|Users no longer have to be made aware of each specific topic area. They only have to be notified once using a specific template about the contentious topic system.}} That would contradict the CTOP regime. Even among the Arbcom sanctions, editors still have to be notified about topic areas individually. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 19:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::My apologies; I misspoke. A specific template only has to be used for the first notification about the contentious topic system in general. Subsequently, any form of notification can be used to inform a given user about specific contentious topics. Previously, a specific template had to be used for each affected topic area. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Again, not all community sanctions, but community-authorized discretionary sanctions. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 01:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is it time for a new design for the main page? ==<br />
<br />
Hi, Wikipedians,<br />
<br />
I believe it's time to consider updating the design of the main page. I'm not certain when the current style was implemented, but it seems to date back to 2006 or even earlier. Nowadays, there are numerous modern and colorful box templates available that could give the page a more contemporary look. What are your thoughts on starting this initiative? After all, the main page represents our entire community. I understand that changing a familiar style can be challenging for many users, but it's part of the natural cycle of updates.<br />
<br />
Best regards, [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 02:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: Ain't broke, don't fix it. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 03:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{+1}} It still looks good on Desktop and even on my phone, in Monobook and Minerva. Everything is in one column and the content is very readable.<span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 17:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Yea, the main page is good enough <small><sup>(there could be some changes however)</sup></small> [[User:Mer764Wiki|<span style="color: darkred">mer764</span>''KCTV5'']] (He/Him | [[User Talk: Mer764Wiki|'''t''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Mer764Wiki|'''c''']]) 04:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::This contradicts the well-established community consensus of “[[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)|ain’t broke, let’s break it and pretend we might fix it later]]”. [[Special:Contributions/216.147.126.60|216.147.126.60]] ([[User talk:216.147.126.60|talk]]) 20:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Fair, true, and appropriate.<br />
::I agree. [[User:ProofCreature|ProofCreature]] ([[User talk:ProofCreature|talk]]) 18:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Agree. The main page as it is is beautiful. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: You may want to review [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Redesign the Main Page]]. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 03:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Wikipedians don't like change (see above), so it's not going to happen without a ''lot'' of work, but I do agree that it's time for a redesign. Since the [[Wikipedia:Main Page design|last major attempts a decade ago]], responsive design technology has advanced enormously, a [[:mw:Codex|new design system]] has been rolled out across Mediawiki, and we got a [[Wikipedia:Vector 2022|new default skin]]. All of this makes the main page look ''particularly'' dated and out of place in 2024. Ideally, we'd proceed by asking [[:mw:Design|Wikimedia's design team]] to lend us their expertise and create something new – subject to community-agreed goals and constraints but ''not'' a crude yes/no vote on using it (which would inevitably fall afoul of the "change is bad" phenomenon). &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 07:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|Riad Salih}} You could probably get consensus for the general idea that the MP should be changed, but the consensus would break down over what specifically to change it to, as everyone has their own idea about that. As noted, this is a constantly made proposal. The best chance of success would probably be to propose incremental changes, one at a time- a wholesale redesign would never gain consensus. Even a small change would take much work to convince others to support and implement. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 08:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::<small>"We don't like change" says the group of people who made over [[Special:Diff/1200000000|one billion two hundred million]] [[WP:Editcountitis|changes]] to a single website. :-) —[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 04:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</small><br />
:::<small>Change for the sake of change!</small><br>People can contribute and don't wish for anything they don't change to not change. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 13:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:One idea that might get approval is moving to a single column. The current layout was well designed when pages used the whole screen, but there are very few words on each line now that we have two thin columns shoehorned into a narrow stripe down the middle of the screen with an acre of empty white space either side. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 10:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:: The white space is probably from the skin you are using. It looks fine in legacy vector. Easier to change the skin to something that you like rather than change the main page for everyone [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 01:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::From a purely selfish viewpoint (which is allowed, as this is an aesthetic matter), I want the main page to remain unchanged. I use Vector 2010, and everything looks just fine to me. However, the vast majority of readers don't have the luxury of setting that preference, and are stuck with wide blank sidebars. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 09:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I use the full width view of new Vector, but when checking it on the narrow width, it looks fine to me. A little narrow perhaps, but not nearly constrained enough IMO to obviate the advantages of a two-column view. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 08:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::VECTOR2022 should just be reversed. [[User:WikiOriginal-9|<span style="color: blue">'''''~WikiOriginal-9~'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:WikiOriginal-9|<span style="color: blue">'''talk'''</span>]]) 18:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:As Joe Roe said, Wikipedians are usually a little less open to change than a cube of iron. But do you have any specific ideas? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 13:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hi @[[User:331dot|331dot]] @[[User:Anomie|Anomie]] @[[User:Certes|Certes]] @[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] @[[User:Joe Roe|Joe Roe]] @[[User:Mir Novov|Mir Novov]] @[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] @[[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] @<br />
::What do you think, for example, of the design of the main page of the [[:es:Wikipedia:Portada|Spanish]] Wikipedia? Or the [[:pt:|Portuguese]] version or [[:tr:|Turkish]]?<br />
::Regards [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 10:39, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I kind of like the Spanish version, but Vector 2022 forces the text to wrap in a weird way because it's so narrow. The Turkish version is pretty similar to en.wiki's, and wouldn't be much of an improvement. I also looked at [[:zh:Wikipedia:首页|the Chinese MP]] (fine, but too white) the [[:fr:Wikipédia:Accueil_principal|French one]] (I quite like it, actually), and [[:sk:Hlavná_stránka|and what I believe is the Slovakian one]], which I also quite like. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::@[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] Yes, I do agree with that, especially the Slovakian one. However, you know we still need ideas from other contributors, which can be challenging. Nevertheless, I will make an effort to advocate the idea of changing the main page design. [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 14:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::With all due respect, the gradients in the Slovakian one make it look very dated, like an early-2000s PowerPoint template. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 15:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I agree that the Slovakian one is too dated. I don't see any problems with the Spanish version under vanilla V22. Maybe swap POTD with On this day for slightly longer line lengths for the latter, make Other projects full-width (and maybe unbox it), and of course adapt ITN to our format, but I don't think the Spanish version needs any more changes. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:25, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I would concur that it's a good idea. IMO, some of the other Wikipedias have Main Pages that put enWP's one to shame. But as others have stated, good luck finding something that everyone can agree on. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 08:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Is there something particular you feel is a problem with the current design? – [[User:Teratix|Tera]]'''[[User talk:Teratix|tix]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Teratix|₵]] 09:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think that it’s probably best to make changes one by one, so that consensus would be more likely. Like one change per discussion. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 16:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Redesign it, but in a way that removes ITN and DYK. Both are massive investments for very little return, and much of the content they display is low quality. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color: darkgreen">''Thebiguglyalien''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color: sienna">talk</span>]])</small> 00:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Fucking excuse me? How the heck are the articles that we've vetted low quality? ITN gives us some global perspective and is one way readers could keep themselves up to date in current events. DYK makes everything a bit more fun for everyone and trivia is fun. Both highlight our utility as an online encyclopedia and good work on our behalf. Removing it would make no sense at all. It has worked, it is working, and it returns. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::{{reply|Aaron Liu}} The problem with opening remarks such as {{tq|Fucking excuse me?}} is rather that they invite a retort along the lines of, yes, well, "fucking excuse ''you''".{{pb}}Regarding the gist—{{tq|How the heck are the articles that we've vetted low quality}}—I think what {{u|Thebiguglyalien}} might be getting at is that simply undergoing a vetting process is insufficient; it is the quality of the vetting that is important, and so by extension, the quality of those doing the vetting. If, for example, ITN and DYN undergo a lightweight review which is perhaps keener on filling slots and reducing backlogs than ensuring the integrity of the main page, then it would be unsurprising, in some eyes, if these processes came under extra scrutiny, ''hein''. Some might also argue that trivia—however much "fun" it is—[[WP:INDISCRIMINATE|is incompatable]] with an encyclopedia that aspires, where possible, to serious scholarship. HTH! [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:blue">——Serial</span>]] 16:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC) <br />
::::Thanks for the detailed explanation, though I don't think the vetting that we do is low-quality. At least at ITN we do a pretty big referencing pass.<br>I also wonder what you mean by "hein". A dictionary search shows that it is 1. surprisingly not German 2. Dutch for death 3. French and Portuguese for "huh?". Is that last one what you meant? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::{{reply|Aaron Liu}}, indeed, I know no German or Dutch! But yes, a "huh" because I wasn't speaking for myself on the quality of the vetting, merely that it's a view (among others, of course, as you point out.) Cheers, [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:blue">——Serial</span>]] 17:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cremastra/MP]] looks fine to me. What do you think of the changes here? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 01:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks for the work, but unfortunately I don't like it very much:<br />
::# I don't know any good ways to fix this, but flushing the Welcome banner's text to the left leaves a lot of blank space in the rest of the box, making it feel weird.<br />
::# We already have a search box; we don't need another one.<br />
::# The third column has line lengths that are way too short in the limited width. That makes the excessive space to the right of the descriptions all the more jarring. And that is in my version of V22 enhanced with [[m:User:Aaron Liu/global.css|my private styles]]. Under the normal limited width all the columns have line lengths that are too short and the sister projects' descriptions run off the page.<br />
::# Something feels wrong about the concept of giving that much prominence to our sister projects. Wikipedia readers are hardly gonna go there and this introduces a lot of colorful icons that clutter up your attention. Previously it'd only take attention when you scroll/look down and want to dedicate attention to it.<br />
::# Lots of useless blank space under the third column.<br />
::# Probably a bug, but {{tq|Other areas of Wikipedia}} appears twice.<br />
:: [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 03:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Cremastra/MP]]: using Galobtter's design for the main portion. I think a large prominent search box on the main page is a good idea, though, as opposed to a redundancy. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 16:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::That does look much better! Combining the search box with the first box seems alright, though maybe I'd use the tagline "Search free knowledge". I'd also recommend making the globe logo stick to the bottom of its box, replacing the whitespace between the first two boxes with a horizontal rule, and maybe put the occasional banner before that rule with a white background. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 18:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I'm not sure about the search box, but I like the top banner otherwise, especially the logo in the bottom left. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 01:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I don't think WPAds should be isolated. Maybe it could replace the search box.{{pb}}Also, any ideas for how to eradicate that awkward gap below the image for the first box? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:20, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_189#Proposal_to_change_portal_links_on_the_Main_Page|There has been consensus]] to remove portal links, so the "Look through content portals" part should be omitted. [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 09:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I think the portal links should be omitted, especially since previous consensus is to do so. Also, I don't think that the Wikipedia Ad should be present, and I'm not sure about how the logo is presented. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::@[[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] Oh, I just put in the ad for fun. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Oh, ok. Still, the portal links need to go, and I'm not sure why we only display 1/4 of the globe logo. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I don't understand what you mean about the globe logo. The logo is visible on all pages. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I mean the corner of the globe that you placed next to "Welcome to Wikipedia!" [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 21:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yeah, that's common across Wikipedias, e.g., see [[:fr:]]. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 21:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::It looks cool [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If we modernize it, I suggest we make it [[:es:|like eswiki's]] (which happens to be adapted from [[:ru:|ruwiki's]]). It's OOUI, modernized and is in a familiar layout, though I might make the "other projects" part full-width. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Honestly I quite like eswiki's, but I would only change the style, and leave how ITN and etc are formatted as is. But, strongly support changing the "Welcome to Wikipedia" header [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I like the eswik's too, clean and simple [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 11:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I like it too [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::eswiki looks really good [[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 13:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think people will support a new main page design as soon as they're shown a new main page design that they like. I would encourage people who are so inclined to create and share mockups of new main page designs. Eventually someone will make something that enough people like. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::BTW my 2c: make the main page, en.wikipedia.org, look much more like [http://www.wikipedia.org www.wikipedia.org]: a minimalist interface, with a prominent search bar, to which I'd add prominent display of TFA and FP. Like maybe FP centered at the top, search bar below that, and TFA below that. But I'm no web designer though so I'm not sure exactly how that should all look. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:This, but for WikiProjects, which are largely bland and uninviting. This is something I've felt for a long time, but have just now worked up the courage to say... so be nice. heh. (but isn't it obvious?) [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 07:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::What do you mean by a wikiproject redesign? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Too complicated to go into here. Probably best for discussion at the WikiProject Council. [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 19:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Good luck. This is going to be harder than Vector 2022. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] I will quote you :"''[[Wikipedia:IAR|Ignore all rules]] and be the change that you want to see''" so Idecided to take the initiative to make the first step. [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 00:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::And what would that be? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 00:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
Is it possible to have, say, the current main page visible to users with the Vector legacy skin, but a main page similar to [http://es.wikipedia.org eswiki]'s for Vector 2022 users? This way we could keep up the "modern" look for Vector 2022, but keep the "legacy" style for Vector legacy. I just don't know if this is technologically feasible. [[User talk:Relativity|<b style="border-radius:3em;padding:6px;background:#e82c52;color:white;"> Relativity </b>]]<span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"></span> 03:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:The current main page has no problems to view in Vector 2022. That said, it should be possible with CSS selectors. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 03:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''I am dubious''' Why? No clear argument for why this would be desirable. Can we be sure it would not lower general accessibility depending on the device being used to access the site? I am not adamantly opposed to sprucing things up a bit. But the oft quoted adage "if it aint broke, don't fix it," definitely comes to mind. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 04:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I think where previous proposals have failed before is in trying to do many changes at the same time (e.g. changing the emphasis of different parts of the main page while also restyling it). Anyways I have a modest proposal, under the principal that [[less is more]] and that the boxes around everything is the most dated part of the main page, at [[User:Galobtter/sandbox/Main page]]. It could do more work from someone who actually knows how to design (I like ptwiki's main page header a lot and that could be incorporated), but all I did was basically remove unnecessary (imo) styling. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 06:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Hey, I like that! [[User:Zanahary|Zanahary]] ([[User talk:Zanahary|talk]]) 06:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like that! It's simpler but clearer. Although something seems a little off with the header box, the lack of border makes it feel poorly-defined to me. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 13:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like it, but I think the margins around each section need to be a little more generous if there are no borders. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 15:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I also like this. While we're at it, maybe align DYK with On this day [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:26, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::That's done manually by admins each day since aligning depends on how much content is in each of the sections. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 23:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Can't we add padding to the bottom of TFA, like ptwiki seems to do? Also the manual alignment doesn't seem to be working for me [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 23:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like a lot of that, but (at least on Desktop on MonoBook) the colored section headers only seem to have a thin border on the bottom and nothing on the other 3 sides. Much better than the es.wiki one linked above, which is visually clean but seems to lack any sort of flavor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 16:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think the border's supposed to be like the heading's border.<br>I believe that whatever we think about the rest of it, we should adopt the first box of the eswiki/ruwiki main page. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::{{tq|colored section headers only seem to have a thin border on the bottom and nothing on the other 3 sides}} is intentional - I wanted to have a simple header style rather than having an unnecessary box around the headers. Yeah, I liked ptwiki's a lot more than eswiki's, which is probably technically the "best" in terms of modernization but is too bland. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 23:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:My proposal would be to change the boxes to a very light gray and then remove the border. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 18:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] I added 1px of margin, which was missing since I removed the 1px border. It looks ok to me now, although you might be right that more margin is needed. @[[User:Cremastra]] I stole the box shadow from [[:pt:Wikipédia:Página principal|ptwiki]] - what do you think now?<br />
*:I want to avoid doing more with this, since I think that's where previous proposals have failed - people want some of the changes but not others so it ends up a whole mess. And since at least some people seem to like this, I might try to put it up for RfC soon, but want to make sure there aren't small tweaks needed to what I've done. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 00:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I'd support it at the RfC stage, but unfortunately I doubt it would pass. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 00:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Another idea would be to use light gray rounded rectangles, because rounded rectangles are a very common part of modern web design. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 13:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Yes they're common but Wikipedia and [[mw:Codex]], our design language, never use them. That would be completely alien to the rest of the encyclopedia. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::I have a visceral dislike for rounded rectangles, possibly because they are now so prevalent. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
* Probably, yes it is time, however the problem is not to change the design, it is how to herd the cats without them canabalizing themselves. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 21:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What is that graphic metaphor supposed to mean? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::When you try to get a lot of people to make a decision together, they often spend more time attacking each other than they do collectively moving in any productive direction, if I understood the metaphor correctly. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 23:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What's needed is a brainstorming RfC process like is currently being done for RfA. This gives an opportunity for a variety of ideas to be suggested and we can then see what sticks. For example, I'm most interested in structural change -- amending the section order and content so that the featured picture and ITN swap places so that ITN can expand coverage of its recent death entries. Issues like this can't be resolved by the editors who maintain the individual sections and so an overall mainpage forum is needed. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 09:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I don't think expanding coverage of RD entries is needed much, and the POTD often needs a dedicated row due to its image size.<br>We're currently kinda designing some layouts, so a more formal workshopping process should begin when we have more proposals. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::If you go to one column, you won't have to worry about balance. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 19:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::That would be wasting a lot of space. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:06, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::No, that would be allowing the text and images to spread across the screen instead of being cramped into tiny corners. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 20:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Why would we need all the text and images to spread across the screen? They don't gain anything from being wider. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::You don't think that a larger image and prose that isn't chopped into tiny sections that resemble the old "See spot. See Spot run. Run, Spot, run." children's books would be useful?--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 01:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::As I don't have a childhood,{{jokes}} I'm not sure what you're talking about.<br>We do not have an overabundance of blurbs, blurb words, recent deaths or DYK hooks. Besides size limitations, there's a reason newspapers separate every single article into columns. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::::As a mobile user, I quite like the one-column design. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::The most popular view or Wikipedia is the mobile one and that's already one column. We should therefore be designing and optimising for that as the primary interface. The balance issue is absurd in that it often causes ITN admins to remove news entries -- form rather than function. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 20:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::Remind me what happened the last time a bunch of editors thought Wikipedia was optimizing for the mobile view. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::The most popular editing view for Wikipedia is desktop, not mobile. Alienating the site’s most essential users is a serious risk to take. If there had been no way to revert the Vector 2022 and recent line height changes, I would have been strongly alienated from Wiki and contributed way less. [[User:Zanahary|Zanahary]] ([[User talk:Zanahary|talk]]) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Most editors are not allowed to edit the main page and so we have a frozen format which is alienating too. What's needed is a process for making changes which allows the main page to evolve. Perhaps there could be an annual update. During the year, there would be a beta test version to trial proposals and then a confirmation and release process at the end of each annual cycle. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 09:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::I don't think we'd need to change the main page every year. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::I agree. Maybe changing every 3 years would be a better idea. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 21:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::::I feel like we should only change it if we should, not force a change every 3 years. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 21:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think we'd need to establish a list of a couple potential designs, and start an official RfC [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::An RfC which would unfortunately fail. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::@[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] Not necessarily, there's quite a few people in this thread who would support that idea. That's also what the purpose of an RfC is: gather consensus, and if it is a quick-fail, so be it. What do others think? [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::At least your (and Galobtter's) small upgrade would probably pass. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::I wouldn't bet on it. :/ [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*This proposal may have met with a more favourable response if the proposer had suggested some '''concrete''' ways in which s/he would like the Main Page changed. I do have a suggestion, and that is we could include a box listing some of the new articles in Wikipedia in [[Wikipedia: Main Page]]. I do not know how many new articles are created on Wikipedia each day, but it could be dozens, and we only need to list a handful of them to make the Main Page show Wikipedia is a developing project. [[User:YTKJ|YTKJ]] ([[User talk:YTKJ|talk]]) 22:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:nominally, that'd be DYK. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 22:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::But not all the articles listed at [[DYK]] are new articles. I was hoping some recent change patrollers could enlighten me as to how many articles are likely to be created on Wikipedia each day, to know whether my suggestion is tenable. [[User:YTKJ|YTKJ]] ([[User talk:YTKJ|talk]]) 22:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::[[WP:DYKRULES|DYKRULES]] require the article to be created, expanded fivefold or made GA this week. That's basically articles which are either new or newly worth featuring. A stub which occupied the title of this week's good work for a decade shouldn't block it from DYK. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 22:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That's a great idea! I support it [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 22:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:And most of those articles are probably pretty bad. DYK fills that role, and DYK is at least slightly vetted. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:A DYK hook can be extracted from nearly every article that satisfies DYK's very basic criteria. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== There is already a different Main Page on the app ===<br />
Nobody ever seems to mention this, so I think it might just not be generally known -- seriously, go look if you don't believe me -- there is a different Main Page on the app with completely different sections that are not put together by the editing community. It has totally different stuff, some sections are missing and there are sections that only show up on the app's main page, et cetera. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 05:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Not really? The sections are Featured article, On this day, Featured image, Most visited articles, and Random article. It's not totally different by any means, and I don't think it needs consideration when we think about a main page redesign. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::So is someone going to let the people at DYK and FLC know that they were deemed unimportant and removed from the main page, then? If this is just being done unilaterally by the fiat of app developers, does it really matter what the community decides should be there? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 15:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It matters, because most people use the website. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Feedback sought for proposal to drop archival bot notice params from Template:Talk header ==<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 11:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1711278446}}<br />
Your feedback would be appreciated at [[Template talk:Talk header#Proposal to drop archiving params]]. The {{tl|Talk header}} template has no control over Talk page archiving, but it does have four params used to generate a "bot notice" in the header box which says something like: "Archiving: 90 days" (plus a tooltip with more info). It's just a string displayed in the header, which may or may not reflect what the actual archiving period is. A recent change to [[Template:Talk header]] automates the generation of this string directly from the archive config, rendering the four Talk header params unnecessary. Imho, they should be deleted from the template in order to prevent misleading bot notices in the Template header box when the given params get out of sync with the config. More details at the [[Template talk:Talk header#Proposal to drop archiving params|proposal discussion]]. Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 04:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: <!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1711276634}} Template:Talk header is a highly visible template, so I've added {{tls|DNAU|3|weeks}} to this discussion to give it sufficient time to air. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 10:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Converting of the sandbox reset link to a button ==<br />
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{{Moved discussion from|Template talk:Sandbox heading}}<br />
Hello! In case you're wondering, my suggestion is to make the "Click here to reset the sandbox" link go from this:<br />
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[[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Click here to reset the sandbox.]]<br />
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To this:<br />
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{{Clickable button 2| Wikipedia:Sandbox|Click here to reset the sandbox. | color= blue }}<br />
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Is it possible? - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 13:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I'm pretty sure that it's possible, although that question would be better asked at [[WP:VPT]]. The more interesting question, that belongs here, is whether it is desirable. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 20:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::This new design is eye catching and could be more user friendly. [[User:Ktkvtsh|Ktkvtsh]] ([[User talk:Ktkvtsh|talk]]) 04:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::How about <nowiki> <div class=plainlinks>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid=596189391 {{Clickable button 2 | '''Click here to reset the sandbox''' |link =no |color = blue}}]</div> </nowiki> which renders as <br />
:::<div class=plainlinks>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid=596189391 {{Clickable button 2 | '''Click here to reset the sandbox''' |link =no |color = blue}}]</div><br />
:::See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&oldid=1212404735] and the subsequent diff. I'm on mobile right now so no idea about how it works on PC. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 17:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I did it. - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 01:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think it is a good idea, and it seems more user-friendly. It draws more attention to itself, but I don't think that is a problem. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 19:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Agree, I think it's better for users new to the sandbox to have it emphasized that you can reset it. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== AI for WP guidelines/ policies ==<br />
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I propose following 2 things, either one or second.<p><br />
Proposal 1: <s>Create AI for Wikipedia by taking existing model and feeding it the guidelines and policies. This will make it easier to find relevant policy. Example: I ask AI for any policy regarding 'using ''notably''' or 'words to watch' in articles, and it comes back with [[WP:EDITORIAL]]. There are already AI's like pdf readers, which you can feed on with pdf and ask questions on it.</s> <u>Make AI optimized search, for reasons that are struck(still valid) before.(Added on 18/3/24 by [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]])</u><br><br />
Proposal 2: Proposal 1 + Giving AI more AI feel, by letting it become more than better search engine, by becoming suggestion judge for small situations. Example: You editors are creative, you may add one.</p><br />
Note: AIs like [https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2023/ai-validates-quality-of-sources-on-wikipedia/ SIDE] seem to help, so will this which may be easier to build. But couldn't find discussion for one like this. The proposed proposals may be amended for better use. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br><u>'''(Note: AI is supposed to complement search)'''</u> [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 13:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Re proposal 1, ChatGPT can already answer this question decently. Presumably its training data includes pages in the Wikipedia namespace. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 16:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Barnards.tar.gz}} ChatGPT requires email for registration. But it also has that 2021 bias, and couldn't list any policy/ guideline's specific article. ChatGPT is more like proposal 2, but that makes it erroneous. It's also third party, so it may not be fed with new ones and also combine non-wikipedia related data it is fed on with its response, which will make it even more erroneous. Proposal is to simply feed an AI on Wikipedian data only and program it to link specific policy it found the info on. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Also, new data like various discussions going on ANI, Village pump, IANB etc. could be fed to AI so as to decrease discussions on already discussed topic, a user is not aware/ couldn't find about. Currently only search method is using Wikipedia search within specific category which could produce innumerable irrelevant matches, and there are numerous categories too. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] You seem to assume that we want these things and that they are good. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Cremastra}} I assumed that this shall help, or else I wouldn't have proposed it. We may not need it, but it's worth considering the potential advantages such an AI could bring, taking into account factors such as efficiency, accuracy, accessibility, and standardization all throughout Wikipedia it could bring with community's grace. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 09:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds like a solution looking for a problem. You only get familiar with current expectations by doing more editing. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 01:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Awesome Aasim}} [[WP:CHOICE]]. While practicing editing is important, AI tools can greatly enhance the editing process on Wikipedia by providing valuable assistance, improving accuracy, and streamlining search. They are designed to complement human editors, not replace them. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 10:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' for several reasons. 1) We already have a search capability, as well as numerous other features like lists, disambiguation pages and redirect shortcuts to help guide users to find what they're looking for. 2) The risks of AI misinterpreting, hallucinating, or otherwise giving users inaccurate information about policy is non-trivial. 3) Because our policies are wiki articles themselves, they too are constantly evolving; without constantly updated training, the AI would forever be operating from an outdated understanding of what our policies actually are. 4) This is not really within the purview of a single project to pursue nor is it likely to gain broad consensus across a wide variety of projects and languages necessary to make it worth the effort and cost. The scenario you're describing is better suited as part of the MediaWiki interface. 5) I suspect there are also non-trivial concerns about license compatibility as well as ensuring an open-source software/tools stack for this. 6) Where is this model going to be hosted? Who is paying for the compute time? The foundation? Some foundation-adjacent entity? Donations? A private research institution? There are too many unanswered questions and this proposal addresses none of them in a way that shows sufficient time and thought was put into making this a realistic suggestion. AI is not a "magic bullet" solution to problems that you haven't validated actually exist; nor that it is a product fit for what this community actually wants. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 04:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{green|The risks of AI misinterpreting, hallucinating, or otherwise giving users inaccurate information about policy is non-trivial.}} Is this referring to an AI generating freeform text, or referring a user to a certain page? I think that this program should probably be restricted to answering in links. I don't see a reason to believe the AI would consistently get that much wrong, or get it wrong more than a user. {{green| AI is not a "magic bullet" solution to problems that you haven't validated actually exist;}} Beyond a shadow of a doubt, people have trouble searching for policies and boards. Half the time I use Google Search. Overall, there seems to be unharnessed potential, which could make newbies stick around or make learning and navigating between policies, past and present, easier. - [[User:Mebigrouxboy|Mebigrouxboy]] ([[User talk:Mebigrouxboy|talk]]) 04:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Swatjester}} 1) The stance is like 'We have candles, why need bulb?" The very reason I proposed this is that it is really difficult for a non-experienced user (even a mid-experienced user like me having 3000+ edits) to find relevant policy, and sometimes not sure if there exists any for it even with the legacy tools. To be clear, there are numerous similar policy pages, and it is difficult to find out where the exact guideline is located and it takes lot of time if not hours finding one. Also even, forums avoid/ aren't sure of such questions as they themselves find it hard to locate sometime (not sure).<br><br />
*:2) As of now, i go with what Mebigrouxboy says.<br><br />
*:3) That's the other primary reason I am proposing this. Assuming that a constantly evolving policy may make the "AI" old, seems like saying editors have super power of going though entire policy updates within less time AI is updated. AI may help editors know what updates are in guidelines.<br><br />
*:4) This is just a tool. I may be wrong, but it is not even a major update like enforcing new vector design on IP editors/ readers. Just a sidebar for easy searching, and policy updates will do it.<br><br />
*:5) Wikipedia itself would not have got the success, if it was not launched due to such considerations. Solving the problems is necessary to establish anything.<br><br />
*:6) I am not considering myself eligible to answer questions related to financial side, as it dependent on what the community and foundation decides and how this proposal evolves. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 10:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::If we're going to use that analogy, your suggestion is like switching from candles to incandescent bulbs, without having addressed why the lighting difference matters, what type of lamp we're going to use, whether the power grid can support it, and who's going to pay for the electric bill. I stand by all of my points -- your idea is incomplete, premature, and lacking sufficient detail or information to be executed on even if there was consensus that it was desirable. You can't simply handwave away critical considerations like "who's going to pay for this" and "is this compatible with our open-licenses and our mission" as trivialities that we'll figure out later. That kind of techbro fastspeak won't fly here. We are the 7th most popular website in the world; even small changes here can have drastic impacts on millions of people. The burden is on you to show that you've actually given the serious consideration and planning due for a change that would affect people in that magnitude. Until then, you don't have a proposal; you have a fantasy. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 15:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Swatjester}} I presented my ideas here (on proposal) as conjectures, indicating that they are open to improvement and further development. This allows for collaboration and the exchange of ideas among editors. {{xt|The proposed proposals may be amended for better use.}} Also I believe that just because I did not elaborate every problem we may face with this, doesn't make it useless, and it could further be developed. However, I assume your point to make sense, and would like to further detail my proposals. And yes, we are one of the most visited website, so we should not be stagnant with the influx of improvement we are capable of. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*An AI that can instantly forward you to the correct venue for a dispute, find help pages for any question, or search the archives of boards, and other capabilities mentioned above would be a massive benefit to editor QoL. A proof of concept might be possible by creating a custom GPT on [[ChatGPT#GPT Store|the ChatGPT store]]. - [[User:Mebigrouxboy|Mebigrouxboy]] ([[User talk:Mebigrouxboy|talk]]) 04:24, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I agree, this would be nice. Since training / fine-tuning AIs on volatile user-provided data is a hot area of research and product development at the moment, I don't think it would be a wise use of Wikipedia funds to get involved just yet. It feels like we would just be duplicating work that is being done elsewhere. At the current pace of development, I would expect that production-ready open source systems that do this are not far off. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 11:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* The Wikimedia Foundation's Machine Learning Team [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1901/ already seem quite busy]. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 16:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support'''. It could really help finding policies when you forget the name or just don't know it. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nononsense101|Nononsense101]] ([[User talk:Nononsense101#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nononsense101|contribs]]) 16:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</small><br />
*This proposal is in essence about creating a better search tool. It could be a good project for a university computer science department. If you know anyone with appropriate connections, or any developers with available resources who might be interested, perhaps you can suggest it to them. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yes, AI optimized search tool is the first and foremost thing I proposed. Other things can be discussed within the community. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think you need to first find people with appropriate experience and resources who can work on this type of project. This will allow them to engage in any discussions and thus guide them down more productive paths. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Isaacl}} Okay. Can you tell where could I search for such people who may have related experience? Thanks, [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::Sean.hoyland gave one pointer above to a Wikimedia Foundation team that might be able to give some pointers or advice. You can also look at the foundation's pages to find other potential contacts. Think of everyone you know and if they have any related experience or connections to those who do, and if they might be receptive. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support proposal 1'''. Happy to be invited to join this discussion. By way of introduction, I am a new editor who has done some deep diving into AI as well as algorithmic and data biases. As a newcomer, I can say that navigating Wikipedia's trove of policies and guidelines can feel very daunting. I’ve read posts in the Teahouse from new editors who say they feel paralyzed due to their fear of being criticized for doing the wrong thing or making mistakes. As such, being able to get easy access to policies would help to reduce policy breaches, support retention of new editors, and help create a “psychologically safer” environment for all editors. In my experience with AI and LLMs such as ChatGPT, they are very efficient when they are dealing with well-defined inputs for a request. A set of Wikipedia policies and guidelines would be an example of well-defined inputs. Generally, when LLMs stumble into "hallucinations", it tends to be when they are tasked with open-ended topics such as “blank sheet of paper” requests where they need to create something new with no prior input other than their own information. [[User:HerBauhaus|HerBauhaus]] ([[User talk:HerBauhaus|talk]]) 13:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* <strike>'''Oppose''' Feel like this is an unnecessary way to teach policy (and it's just asking for issues). We should avoid AI in general, and instead we should be improving new user onboarding so that we don't need this solution.</strike> '''Support''' AI in a very limited form<br />
:[[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 03:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Vghfr}} Proposal 1 is AI- optimized search. Proposal 2 may better suit your oppose. Also the proposal 1 is not asking for issues as it is already evident from my and others(response above yours) experience that new wikipedians do face lot of issues when it comes to make even the slightest edits, and [[WP:CHOICE]] finally. We are not a company, but encyclopedia's community which should be not conservative in approach of helping Wikipedia's editor base growth in fears which make no sense.[[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 14:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Sorry, got trigger-happy when I saw 'AI.' I could see it working if it was used as an addition to the search. Something similar to how Bing uses Copilot to summarize search results. We would just have to be careful. [[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 21:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Strong Support''' - I'd find it so useful to find policies and guidelines, as long as the AI is only used for that and is not involved in anything else around Wikipedia. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Absolutely not''' - The state of the art of AI does not have sufficient quality assurance to be able to operate in such an open-ended domain as Wikipedia policy and guidelines. This proposal is begging for trouble, and there is currently no time frame for when AI will reach this level of sophistication beyond a useless guess of "maybe in a few years at best". <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 14:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Rosguill}}No, I never deemed the proposal to be the way you are thinking, I myself may have opposed such proposal. I proposed for an AI optimized search for Wikipedia's policy and guidelines. There are lot of chatbots out there (including ones made on small budget) which could answer question based on web results in real time by 'searching' on internet, but the Wikipedia(AI-opt-search) work would be simpler even in term that it is just based on internal pages of just Wikipedia. In other words, right now Wikipedia's traditional search is '[[Google Search|Google]]', and I propose something like '[[perplexity.ai]]' but much less sophisticated and easy to build. Also this would complement the search and may not be major change, it is proposal 2 which may suit your oppose. Regards, [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 14:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I still think that this is a solution in search of a problem, and that it will in fact find several new problems if implemented. The same concerns of lack of reliability apply: how do we know that the chatbot will direct people to the correct p&g page given a query at runtime? What dataset of queries and responses could we possibly train it on? How will the AI know how to balance essays, guidelines, and policies, or how to recognize an essay that nevertheless has broad buy-in from the community and is a guideline in all but name? How would the AI know how to adapt to IAR, to contradictory essays and guidelines, or to the fact more broadly that our documentation is descriptive rather than prescriptive of Wikipedia practices? There is no publicly-available dataset that we could train an AI off of that would even begin to address these use cases. I am raising these concerns as someone with several years of professional experience in AI research. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 15:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Rosguill}} Your have very valid points of concern. I think that this could be implemented step by step, whenever the community and foundation feel ready. There are lot of proposals in this discussion itself: First two are the proposals I presented, then a new one is too just let the already existing search engine get AI optimized, other is to make 'policychecker' ({{xt|spellchecker but for WP policy... which}}(idea){{xt| is at least worth exploring}}), then we have something like Wikipedia Library type, difference that it provides access to some third party model like ChatGPT fed with p&g which could be used in a while, etc. I have even posted an example of basic AI which we could think of in first step. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* I have put some thought into this and I do think there could be merit for a tool to help new editors see their revision draft is violating a WP policy prior to submission. That isn't necessarily a "WP Policy chatbot" but probably something more akin to a spellchecker but for WP policy. If it could cause a new editor to fix their bad edit before another editor had to deal with it, it could make things better. That said, the model is only a small part of what would be needed to make this work, a bigger aspect would that the UI/UX that makes it seemless for a newer user while not annoying experienced editors (maybe make it opt in?). [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 15:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|CAlbon (WMF)}} Maybe we could add that in 'beta features'. Proposal 2 or related would surely be more complex idea than 1, but it will increase the overall efficiency and quality of articles produced/ or edits. However 'AI' is the "popular" term so I used it, but the real solution would be to somehow reduce the pressure of getting 'edit wrong due to policy/ guideline' fear from new editors, because those who have such worries are the ones who are most dedicated. And it may surely ease the navigation process like gps did. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Yeah, I do think helping new editors overcome the hurdle of their (and everyone's) first edits often being pretty rough. Structured Tasks can help with this, but the "policychecker" idea has merit, at least as an exploration. [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 16:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::@[[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]]: In editing energy and telecommunications articles, I've noticed that several key editors who made significant contributions have left Wikipedia, likely due to criticisms or disputes. These criticisms, not always expressed in a civil tone, have highlighted issues in their newly created articles or edits such as subjective language, the inclusion of original ideas, and potential plagiarism. Implementing a "policy checker" for articles before they "go live" could greatly reduce such friction, helping to retain passionate contributors. [[User:HerBauhaus|HerBauhaus]] ([[User talk:HerBauhaus|talk]]) 14:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::This is a really good insight. Thanks for sharing the example. [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 16:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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* '''Unnecessary''' – It'd be a big hassle for Wikipedia to implement such a proposal and, at least to me, seems like a pretty unnecessary thing to do, since there already are such third-party tools. If anyone wants to use them, they should feel free to do so (and accept responsibility for any error), like with any tool. '''''I don't oppose the idea''''' though, I just see it as another solution to a problem that already has (or is close to having) a solution. [[User:Gedditor|Gedditor]] ([[User talk:Gedditor|talk]]) 16:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Gedditor}}Specifically proposed for new editors (and in extension can be used by others). Some newbies don't even know Wikimedia projects other than Wikipedia exist, being aware of third party tools seems improbable. I don't think hassle can be the reason to deny working on (discussion), which may result in at least a minor change which may make it a process easier (and yet efficient) to edit for Wikipedians. Also I don't think any 'third party tool' or any 'tool' is currently better than Wikipedia's own "search engine" which is not very effective, I very first proposed, and even if any exists, they mostly are highly unreliable. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I don't think that things shouldn't be done because they are hard to do. I just personally think that it's not worth it. I'd say '''I'm neutral on this issue'''. If such a feature is implemented, good. If not, that's fine too. Just wanted to add my opinion here :) [[User:Gedditor|Gedditor]] ([[User talk:Gedditor|talk]]) 16:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' – Don't think this should be an official tool. I support any unofficial ones that people want to build. I've [https://chat.openai.com/g/g-f9fjPK25v-wiki-wizard personally built] a GPT with access to all Wikipedia namespace articles concatenated into a single file. Go ahead and ask it about Wikipedia rules and guidelines and maybe it will actually give an accurate answer. – [[User:Kjerish|Kjerish]] ([[User talk:Kjerish|talk]]) 04:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Kjerish}} Okay, great! But it requires ChatGPT plus. Maybe somewhat like [[Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library|Wikipedia library]], WM could give us any one such model's access. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 13:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Agreed! [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - First and foremost, I understand and respect your vision to expand Wikipedia but I fear that AI (such as ChatGPT) is not to the level that it should be. I understand that AI has been around for quite a long time, but only recently has it been ignited to the public and is used through numerous high-end companies (such as Google, Microsoft, Apple, you name it). I oppose this because Wikipedia is about humans checking the article. And yes, it would make it go faster, but it will make mistakes and those mistakes could time consuming for an individual (or a community) to resolve them. I think we should pilot it to a few selective articles rather than making it public to the entire Wikipedia articles. I think it's a great idea, no doubt, but we should be cautious when it comes to making it public for all without really piloting it. I have a couple more opinions on it, feel free to reach out if you want to. [[User:JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:red">Jack Reynolds</b>]] ([[User talk:JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:blue">talk to me</b>]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:grey">email me</b>]]) 15:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:First of all I appreciate your civil tone. I understand the lack of confidence on currently available AI platforms, and that implementing it site wide may bring issues, increasing the overall time to solve. But for that you said {{xt|Wikipedia is about humans checking the article}}, I would also point that we have bots, which do not directly edit and cross check the articles (as a dystopian editor-less Wikipedia may have, and I oppose this), the [[Wikipedia:Bots|bots]] have proven to be very effective in side tasks other than automating repetitive tasks. Bots like [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] are active examples. AI has wide applications, and I think that there are lot of applications to it on WP too, to some I oppose just like you, but others, like AI optimized simple search, or beta tested policy chatbots are some I have eyes on, as they rather than replacing existing resources, would only complement them. And as they say it, something is better than nothing (being added), especially when it is promising to look at. I would also like to know 'more opinions' you mentioned to have. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 15:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Comment''': For those who oppose major change related to AI, the ai need not take a very inclusive part in Wikipedia's working for now, but a simple AI search like this would really ease the problem:<br />
<code> User: I am editing person's article, but she has lot of names, I want to write all of them, what I do?<ref>Note the informal language I used here.</ref><br><br />
&nbsp;WP AI: I found the following results:<br><br />
&nbsp;1.'''[[MOS:NAME]]''': The guidelines talks about various cases in which the subject has ''Anachronistic names, Changed names, Multiple changed names, Pseudonyms and stage names, Hypocorisms, Nicknames'' etc. .....<br />
</code><br />
<br><br><br />
or something I have seen many editors not knowing about:<br><br />
<code><br />
Editor: I added name of subject in Hindi in information box at right side, but somebody removed it and warned me. Why?<ref>Note that the new editor does not know about script and rather says 'Hindi', a language. The editor need not be expert in linguistic field, but this initial gf edits should not discourage them from editing constructively in future</ref><br><br />
WP AI: I found the following guideline regarding the usage of Indic script (which the Hindi language is predominantly written in) in infobox:<br><br />
&nbsp;'''[[WP:INDICSCRIPT]]''': The guidelines says that per a consensus at [[Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_64#RfC_on_Indicscript_in_infoboxes|2017 request for comment]], the use of Indic sript in India related articles is to be avoided for multiples reasons listed below:<br />
<br>1).....<br>2)......<br>3)......<br> This could be the possible reason that your edit was removed. For more information, you may ask the editor who reverted your edit for a response.<br />
</code><br />
{{reflist}}<br />
*'''Oppose:''' I anticipate little benefit to the Wikipedia project. [[User:Clarinetguy097|Clarinetguy097]] ([[User talk:Clarinetguy097|talk]]) 17:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Clarinetguy097}} And how do you? [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 17:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Wrong page? This seems like a request for software rather than something that needs consensus. Any volunteer may create a user script or Toolforge tool that uses AI. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 21:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Novem Linguae}} User scripts are add-ons that are commonly used by experienced users, while new editors are often unaware of them. Even mid-level editors may naturally find them uncomfortable to use. While volunteer-created scripts or tools are valuable, official integration ensures widespread accessibility and consistency across the platform. So I propose a direct integration of this feature in Wikipedia's interface, and so I started the discussion here. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 12:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Conditional Support'''. Using ChatGPT to augment the wikipedia search engine isn't a good idea. It hasn't been tested enough, isn't built for searching, and doesn't like certain queries (medical, legal, political, and anything containing the phrase "root access"). If Wikimedia wants to build its own AI to help with searching, however, then I do support this. [[User:DarklitShadow|DarklitShadow]] ([[User talk:DarklitShadow|talk]]) 21:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Reworking Sandbox Heading ==<br />
<br />
Hello! I am requesting that {{tl|sandbox heading}} be changed to this:<br />
{{collapse top|Proposed sandbox heading text}}<br />
{{code|<center><big>'''Click on the "Edit this page" link above to experiment!'''</big></center><center><big>'''Please leave this heading alone'''</big></center><br />
Welcome to the sandbox! Anybody can edit this page and it is automatically cleared regularly (anything you write will not remain indefinitely).<br />
You can either [[Special:EditPage/{{FULLPAGENAME}}|edit]] the source code ("'''[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit}} {{int:visualeditor-ca-editsource}}]'''" tab above) or use [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor|VisualEditor]] ("'''[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|veaction=edit}} {{int:skin-view-edit}}]'''" tab above). Click the "'''{{int:publishchanges}}'''" button when finished. You can click "'''{{int:showpreview}}'''" to see a preview of your edits, or "'''{{int:showdiff}}'''" to see what you have changed.<br />
this page is cleared regularly, feel free to try your editing skills below.<br />
<br />
{{Clickable button 2|Click here to reset the sandbox.|class=mw-ui-progressive|url={{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid={{#switch:{{FULLPAGENAME}}<br />
|Draft:Sandbox=1153186071<br />
|Wikipedia:Sandbox=596189391<br />
|User:Sandbox=1151999420<br />
|User talk:Sandbox=1152088553<br />
|Wikipedia talk:Sandbox=1152694269<br />
}}}}}}<br />
If you are logged in, you can access your personal sandbox: "'''[{{fullurl:Special:Mypage/sandbox|action=edit&preload=Template:User_sandbox/preload}} {{int:sandboxlink-portlet-label}}]'''".<br />
[[Wikipedia:Misuse of the sandbox|'''DO NOT''' place promotional, copyrighted, offensive, or libelous content]] in sandboxes.{{small|''For more info, see [[Help:My sandbox]]. New? See the [[Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia|contributing to Wikipedia]] page or [[Help:Introduction|our tutorial]]. Questions? Try [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|the Teahouse]]!''<br />
[[:Category:Wikipedia Editing Aids]]}}}}<br />
{{collapse bottom}}<br />
Should this change be made? - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 18:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, it should be changed to this version. [[Special:Contributions/23.245.44.64|23.245.44.64]] ([[User talk:23.245.44.64|talk]]) 18:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. This makes the reset option more visible. It might make people pay less attention to the heading, but I doubt it. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 16:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Noting that I've left an invitation to this discussion at [[Template talk:Sandbox heading]]. All the best. <span style="color:#595959">&zwj;—&zwj;</span>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">a&nbsp;smart kitten</span>]]<sub style="color:#595959">[<nowiki/>[[User talk:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">meow</span>]]]</sub> 19:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Proposed formatting changes to the universal editnotice==<br />
[[File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg|25px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at [[:MediaWiki talk:Editpage-head-copy-warn#New design|MediaWiki talk:Editpage-head-copy-warn §&nbsp;New design]]. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 17:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<!-- [[Template:Please see]] --><br />
<br />
== Advertising sister projects ==<br />
<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 19:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1713553276}}<br />
{{rfc|prop|proj|rfcid=E3AC02F}}<br />
Should Wikipedia run a period of banners (one or multiple weeks) encouraging readers to use and edit sister projects? ([[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Special_period_advertising_sister_projects|previous discussion]])<br />
*[[User:Cremastra/sandbox2|See examples here]].<br />
Please note that this is a discussion regarding whether Wikipedia should do this in the broad sense; detailed arguments like "I don't like the suggested banners" or "but we shouldn't promote [this project I don't like]" should be saved for later discussion. Please respond to the idea in the RfC statement.<br />
Thank-you, [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:<small>Notifying participants in previous discussion: {{ping|Aaron Liu|Harvici|Commander Keane|WhatamIdoing|Theklan| The Wordsmith|vghfr}}</small><br />
<br />
:{{block indent|em=1.6|1=<small>Notified: [[meta:Wikimedia Forum]]. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</small>}}<!-- Template:Notified --><br />
===Survey (advertising sister projects)===<br />
*'''Yes''' as proposer. As I wrote previously:<br />
:''Sister Wikimedia projects have a lot to offer readers, and as one of the most viewed sites on the internet (globally!) we should help introduce readers to these resources. As you know, other Wikimedia projects include a dictionary/thesaurus which includes translations; a travel guide; a library of digitized public domain texts that anyone can download or distribute; a travel guide; a media repository; and many others. The sister project links are currently buried far down on the Main Page, and are especially distant for mobile viewers who make up an increasing share of our readership. Why would we not want to help readers discover some of the useful resources our sister projects have to offer?''<br />
:[[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. Several of the 'sister projects' are worse than useless. At least one is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia. We should not be encouraging them. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 19:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{ping| AndyTheGrump }} They're Wiki'''m'''edia, not Wikipedia. This is the exact Wikipedia-is-the-best-and-most-important-project conceit I've been talking about. And I wonder which project you object to— Wikidata doesn't follow our notability guidelines, Wiktionary ''clearly'' violates [[WP:NOTDIC]], Wikisource has no citations at all (!) Wikifunctions is just a bunch of code or something, Wikivoyage goes against [[WP:V]] and, to a degree, [[WP:NPOV]]… I could go on. Judging other projects by Wikipedian standards in nothing less than absurd. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth. I am under no illusion that Wikipedia is 'the best' anything. It is however, the only online encyclopaedia that has any significant readership (thanks in no small part to Google), and is thus worthy of critical scrutiny. And I'm not judging the other projects by 'Wikipedian' standards, I'm judging them by the standards of someone who considers Wikipedia structurally flawed, even if its objectives are worthy in the abstract. The projects I refer to are in my opinion worse, in several ways, but mostly of little significance. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 19:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::[[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]], could you please expand on how the projects are {{tq|worse}} and the project that {{tq|is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia}}?<span id="Frostly:1710623668920:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 21:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
*:{{tqq|At least one is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia.}} Which project is it?<br />
*:You first say that we should not encourage our sister Wikimedia projects because they go against Wiki'''p'''edia objectives, and then you say that you aren't judging them by Wikipedian standards. I don't understand. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Is it your intention to get into long-winded discussions with everyone who participates here, or just the ones you disagree with? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 23:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes, provided it is limited to a few projects'''. Some of our projects are of limited interest to the average reader ([[Wikidata]], [[Wikispecies]] and [[Wikifunctions]]) and others aren't in a state where it's worthwhile directing users to them ([[Wikinews]]). I think that such a campaign would be best served by a focused group of 3 or 4 of them that is more able to effectively direct attention their way. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 02:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Absolutely not.''' Banners steal our readers' attention. By distracting them and taking them off task, we slow down them learning what they're here to learn. Ads make people ''stupider''. We should display as few as humanly possible for as little time as possible.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S&nbsp;Marshall</b>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 02:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' for the same reason I don't like banner ads for donations or dishwashing soap. You diminish the encyclopedia by pasting ads for things that are completely unrelated to the topic they are searching. First and foremost, the READERS matter, and this diminishes the encyclopedia by putting information in the way of what they came for: verifiable facts about a topic. We aren't here to promote anything, including ourselves. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 07:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' as per above. Banner ads do not benefit the encyclopedia, which is our primary concern. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 14:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is the kind of self-centredness that is detrimental to the Wikimedia project as a whole. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 17:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I could just as easily say that proposals like this one are detrimental to the English Wikipedia because they consume editor time that might otherwise have been spent improving articles. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 01:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::By that logic, every proposal here is detrimental because they take time away from editing articles. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::No, a proposal that seeks to improve the encyclopedia is not a detriment. This, however, is a proposal that diminishes the encyclopedia, which is why I opposed it. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 16:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yeah, obviously''': it's common knowledge that enwiki's love for sister projects is... lackluster at best. Thank god we're not in charge of creating new projects, because otherwise there wouldn't be any. But raising awareness for sister projects raises the probability that we'll be able to help someone find what they're looking for (like, say, a quote or a definition) next time they need something. Maybe they're looking for that information right now, and don't know where to find it! [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 16:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I don't think this is a good idea, beyond directing users to all Wikimedia sites in general. If English Wikipedia starts choosing individual sites to promote, and thus selecting ones not to promote, failure to promote a site will be seen as a negative endorsement. This may have an unduly discouraging effect on the expansion of the related communities. I am wary of putting English Wikipedia in a position where it can determine the success or failure of other Wikimedia sites. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' There are far fewer reasons to do this than not to do this; some of the reasons that I can think of off the top of my head include NPOV & not wanting to have to look into the editorial practices of other projects. [[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) 00:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:NPOV only applies to articles. If we start interpreting it that strictly, then we're going to need to delete [[:Category:Wikipedia essays|a lot of essays]]... {{smiley3}} [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. I have seen no convincing argument why and how this would benefit the encyclopedia. Also per {{U|Isaacl}} &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 11:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. The purpose of Wikipedia is to be an encyclopaedia, not to recruit users for other projects. If the Wikimedia foundation thinks they need more users elsewhere, they can do their own advertising. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{ping|Modest Genius}} Ah, so we don't want to actually ''help'' readers, we just want them to read the encyclopedia? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::How would showing readers advertising possibly help them? [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::See Queen of Hearts' comment below. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes'''. leeky puts it perfectly. Most readers don't know what on Earth a Wikivoyage is, when in reality, it could be exactly what they're looking for. [[User:Queen of Hearts|Queen of Hearts]] <sup>she</sup>/<sub>they</sub><sup>[[User talk:Queen of Hearts|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Queen of Hearts|stalk]]</sub> 20:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' largely per Isaac. If we do every project, we're making a lot of noise for very little benefit. If we select only some, we functionally decide which projects we endorse (and which we don't by omission). Neither is a particularly good outcome. I also think banner campaigns are over-used in general and not a good way to support sibling projects if that's the goal. It's indiscriminate and for the majority of readers completely useless given what they're here to learn about. Why show a reader a banner about wikispecies if they're here reading about the Andromeda Galaxy? I don't see the benefits outweighing the costs. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 20:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes''' per leeky. General support for the idea, without committing to doing all of them (after all, we can't say too much about the Incubator, Meta, etc.). &mdash; <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 03:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' - Advertising (especially in banner form) is annoying and intrusive, distracting and wasting of screen space. It doesn't matter how noble or [[wikt:sororal|sororal]] the entity being advertised. We already link to the sister projects in the main page (left panel and bottom) and we routinely mention relevant sister projects explicitly from articles where applicable (many articles include templates linking to specific pages on Commons, Wikivoyage, Wiktionary) and link [[wikt:inline|inline]] where appropriate, most often via images. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''No''', good points above on the value of ads and on being cautious with the power of en.wiki within the WMF ecosystem. On a pragmatic note, a general link to go look at WikiSource or WikiData or even WikiCommons is of any use. How to contribute to those is opaque at best. If these resources are promoted, it should be through specific useful ways, such as our practice of including relevant WikiSource pages in See also sections (occasionally they pop up in infoboxes too). [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 07:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes''', as leeky put it. Other sister projects are very well what readers may be looking for, like WikiVoyage or Commons. There should be an option to opt-out though. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 12:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' to all forms of distracting and inappropriate advertising. There will always be sound and moral reasons behind any banner campaign - I'd like us to allow various charitable banners which fund-raise to help starving children, or prevent climate change, etc. But Wikipedia was set up not to be such a platform, and so it seem highly inappropriate and immoral and incestuous that we don't allow banners which may improve or even save people's lives, but will allow banners purely to inflate the traffic flow of various WikiMedia projects. If there is an appropriate need to link to another project, that is already done within articles, such as via External links. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 14:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' per SilkTork. Besides, a lot of people, both editors and readers, are already frustrated by the endless, huge banner ads that get foisted on articles every December, grubbing for money for the WMF. We don't need to add to that. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 14:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' due to banner blindness, and due to the fact that just because a project is a sister project doesn't mean it's a good project. I just don't see the value in telling readers about other projects. BTW, I also would oppose a banner that encouraged people to edit ''this'' project. I'm generally opposed to taking up screen real estate to try and recruit readers, let the readers read in peace without distraction. BTW, the way to let readers know about sister projects they may find useful is "inline," the way we do it now, with those boxes/links/hatnotes/whatever-you-call-them that say, e.g. "full text is available at WikiSource," or "there is an entry at WikiData," or "there is media on Commons," etc. It's better to put those more-targeted notices in the place where they'll matter. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' as conceptually wrong. Very, very, VERY few people, even linguaphiles, are hardcore "let me sit down and read the dictionary some" types. Similarly, even people who love reading books aren't going to be enticed by "oh hey, let me go to the local library and pick some books at random" from Wikisource or Wikibooks. And yet that's precisely what these suggested banners provide: essentially a link to the front door of the library, or to a full dictionary. What is ''far'' more effective is a relevant link for a ''word'' or ''topic'' that the reader has already shown themselves interested in, hence them being at an article in the first place. So something like [[The_Red-Headed_League#External_links]] having its first EL being to Wikisource? Great. The reader is interested in the topic, here's a link to where you can read the story on Wikisource. Or disambig pages including a prominent Wiktionary link, especially for less-used words or foreign terms like [[Anabasis]]. There's an argument we should link sister projects ''when relevant'' more aggressively, sure. That might be a good way to spend time. But these banners don't have any relevance, and therefore aren't useful. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 20:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. Unnecessarily distracting and annoying. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 12:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===General discussion (advertising sister projects)===<br />
The [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page main page] already has a large section, '''Wikipedia's sister projects'''. Why is something else needed? [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 19:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Those links are hard to find and do little. Especially for mobile readers, they are unlikely to be actually seen. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Adding 'sister project' banners is inevitably going to make other content less likely to be seen, given finite screen sizes. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 20:05, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I think there inevitably will be tradeoffs with inclusion of any type of content.<span id="Frostly:1710623776117:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::And how much space will the banners take up on mobile screens? [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It depends what the final design is. Presumably the design used for mobile will be much smaller than that for desktop. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
If banners were approved and shown, how would you determine whether they were worth the effort? [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 20:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:One could look at siteviews of projects, number of edits made, number of active users... and see if there was noticeable change. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Related discussion''': Those here concerned about excessive banner use (or, conversely, wishing we'd use banners more) may be interested in [[meta:CentralNotice/Request/UCDM_2024#c-Sdkb-20240311113000-Ciell-20240306150000|discussion]] about the appropriateness of displaying the banner for Ukraine's Cultural Diplomacy Month globally without any geographic targeting. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
During the brainstorming session for the 2021 RfA review, I suggested having regularly scheduled [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Brainstorming#c-Isaacl-2021-10-17T02:09:00.000Z-Barkeep49-2021-10-17T01:22:00.000Z|volunteer weeks]], where editors representing different initiatives could host "open house" activities to engage potential volunteers. I didn't pursue the idea, though, since there was almost no interest expressed. However if it were to occur, it would be an opportunity for editors from other projects to set up open houses to publicize their work. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Maybe rather than banners for individual projects, there could be a banner about sister projects in general linking to a page that transcluded {{temp|Wikipedia's sister projects}}, had a paragraph overview of each project, links to any welcome portals on that project, and links to any coordination or other related groups on en.wp. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Whilst I'm not necessarily opposed to focusing on other Wikimedia projects, personally I prefer a venue that is open for any initiative looking for more participation. There are a lot of areas on English Wikipedia that could either be helpful to more readers, if they knew about them, or could use more participants, if they were drawn to help out. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 22:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Create an alias for the Template namespace ==<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 16:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1713628875}}<br />
{{rfc|prop|rfcid=7AC8539}}<br />
I am proposing that <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> be added as an alias to the <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> namespace per [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#New_alias_for_template_namespace|this discussion]].<br />
<br />
Note: Though previous aliases were already [[Wikipedia:Perennial_proposals#Create_shortcut_namespace_aliases_for_various_namespaces|listed on perennial proposals]], it proposed <code><nowiki>t:</nowiki></code>, which would have conflicted with some article titles, or be confused with the <code><nowiki>Talk:</nowiki></code> namespace. <code><nowiki>Tp:</nowiki></code>, on the other hand, wouldn't, and would make it way quicker to look up a template in the search bar.<br><br />
<br />
<u>Edit (during rfc): <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> was not fully supported due to it being confused with "Talk Page", however other options were proposed, like hard coding <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> being replaced by <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> in the search bar.</u> [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 15:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' "Template" is not a long word, and nobody abbreviates it as "tp" these days. This seems pointless. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I just thought it'd make it consistent with <code><nowiki>wp:</nowiki></code> for <code><nowiki>Wikipedia:</nowiki></code>, which is 10 characters, while <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> is 9 characters. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 15:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tq|Nobody abbreviates it as "tp" these days}}. Even if that is true it is not a reason for ''us'' not to do so. Wikipedia is big enough to be making fashions rather than following them. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I'd find it useful. It's less effort to type "tp:infobox person" in the search box than "template:infobox person" (which is how I usually navigate to wp: and template: pages). [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Schazjmd. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 15:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I'd absolutely love this. I've often wondered if there was some technical problem that was preventing us doing this. '''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''': Pretty nice QOL change. Per Schazjmd. [[User:ARandomName123|ARandomName123]] ([[User talk:ARandomName123|talk]])<sup><span class="tmp-color" style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 16:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I don't think it's a good idea to create an alias (and implicitly creating more English Wikipedia jargon) just to improve the search function. We should instead improve the search capability directly. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yeah, but you don't want a casual reader to be confused as to why they ended up on a template page [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 17:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::It would be a lot easier for the casual user to stumble upon a namespace alias, which could happen anywhere they enter an URL that might trigger a browser to launch, than for them to deliberately select the search box and type there. Furthermore, if this isn't intended to be used by a broad audience, then a more targeted solution would be better. Users wanting this functionality can make use of the script to which you were pointed in the previous thread, or they can configure their OS to provide an appropriate macro expansion to shorten the number of keystrokes they use. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::For reference, the script seems to be [[User:Ahecht/Scripts/TemplateSearch]]. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* "tp" seems very easily misconstrued as "Talk Page" at a glance. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 18:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Good point. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 18:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I've been wanting this. It really is irksome to type out "Template:" I since learned today there are scripts, and of course {{tld|tld}} for talk pages, but it would be much cleaner and simpler to have a standard abbrev. and this is technically easy to implement. TP: or T: it doesn't matter they both are fine. I prefer T: -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 18:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment''': Unless I'm missing something, the {{code|TP:}} prefix was proposed in 2015, in a discussion which was closed as no consensus - [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 127#Prefix suggestion: TP: for Template:]]. All the best. <span style="color:#595959">&zwj;—&zwj;</span>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">a&nbsp;smart kitten</span>]]<sub style="color:#595959">[<nowiki/>[[User talk:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">meow</span>]]]</sub> 19:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' For the reasons in [[WP:PEREN#Create shortcut namespace aliases for various namespaces]]. In particular, the Template namespace is generally not linked often enough that saving the typing of 6 characters is likely to be at all worthwhile and there's nothing available to use for the corresponding talk pages. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 20:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*The template for linking a template is called {{tl|tl}}. Shouldn't we have some consistency between this and the short-cut? Or is "tl" already used? [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] tl is ISO639 for [[Tagalog_language|tagalog]]. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 22:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tl|tl}} is short for {{tl|template link}}, so the [[el (letter)|el]] doesn't have anything to do with templates ''qua'' templates. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – While there are helpful template shortcuts, like {{t|t}} and its siblings, that can be used in discussions, and a script that can be used in the on-wiki searchbox to convert <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> to <code>Template:</code>, a namespace shortcut (<code>tp:</code>) would help in edit summaries and customised browser search boxes. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 23:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' Adding layers of obfuscation is not helpful. If I want to refer to {{tl|convert}}, writing <code>Template:Convert</code> is easy and helpful to someone reading my comment. Writing <code>Tp:Convert</code> is unnecessary jargon that saves under a second of typing at the cost of head-scratching for readers. <code>tp</code> would be "talk page" for many. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 01:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' As someone who has next to no involvement with template editing, I immediately think of 'talk page' when I see 'tp'. It would confuse many people who edit outside of the technical areas of Wikipedia. {{summoned by bot}} '''[[User:JML1148|JML1148]]''' <sup>([[User talk:JML1148|<span style="color:#58c8cc">talk</span>]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/JML1148|<span style="color:#58c8cc">contribs</span>]])</sup> 06:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Rename''' the template mainspace from "Template:" to "Plantilla:" and use "Pl:" as a shortcut [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 18:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That would be quite a big change, but I'm not against it lol [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::But this is in español ROTFL -- '''[[User:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFD700;color:#002FA7">Zand</span>]][[User talk:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFF944;color:#F50F0F">Dev</span>]]''' 13:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Yeah there's no way we'll get consensus on that one [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yea, no. Also even on eswiki that uses that namespace name this couldn't happen as Pl is ISO639 for Polish. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 09:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Soft Oppose''' I'd support hard-coding <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code>→<code>Template:</code> into the search box's autocomplete natively rather than using my script as a hack, but I agree that the widespread use of links like [[:TP:Example]] are an unnecessary layer of obfuscation/jargon. With the <code>WP</code> prefix, at least the shortcut links are ''mostly'' self explanatory, but it wouldn't be obvious to a newcomer what, for example, [[:tp:birds]] is, or why it's not an article. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] Yes, hard-coding that directly could be a great alternative. I just think that we need to find a solution for this, and maybe <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> wasn't the best as others have pointed out. I'll continue gathering some ideas and then conduct a sub-RfC to see what option would be best, as long as the consensus doesn't seem to be oppose. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''neutral''' i could go either way. I like the hard coding option of having 'template' be dropdown option in the menu. [[User:Slacker13|Slacker13]] ([[User talk:Slacker13|talk]]) 01:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – I don't think that adding the <code>t:</code> will add an another level of obfuscation. The current method of making [[Help:Interwiki linking|interwiki link]] is already obscure and complicated, specially for newbies, instead a simple alias to the template namespace will be easy and handy in researches. -- '''[[User:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFD700;color:#002FA7">Zand</span>]][[User talk:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFF944;color:#F50F0F">Dev</span>]]''' 13:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Note that I suggested <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> though, not <code><nowiki>t:</nowiki></code> as it was rejected previously: does that work for you? [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' I do work with templates but I feel that this is not an intuitive shortcut and could easily be confused with "talk page". ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' , I had typed TP: prefix in the past thinking that I would get the template page without success. This would be useful in different scenarios (just like the WP: prefix). And its use is optional, so if someone doesn't like it, they can go with the full Template: as ever. [[User:Alexcalamaro|Alexcalamaro]] ([[User talk:Alexcalamaro|talk]]) 05:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Unnecessary, and just as with T=Talk, TP=Talk Page. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 08:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Neutral''' Agree with the principle, would prefer access to a shortened version; but also agree that the proposal is too close to talk page. Regards, --[[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 22:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* I think supporting <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> in the search bar would be sufficient to support the use case of issue. But beside that, I agree with '''oppose''' comments above. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Showing "Redirected from" notice at top of section ==<br />
{{tracked|T360255}}<br />
<br />
When one arrives at an article via a redirect, the page is rendered with an additional line saying "(Redirected from [...])", directly (?) below the "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" byline below the article title.<br />
<br />
For most of the many redirects that target sections of articles, instead of entire articles, that means that this line isn't in view, which makes little sense to me. After all, if the page includes any {{template link|redirect}}-type dab templates, those are placed as section hatnotes, not article hatnotes, which makes a lot of sense.<br />
<br />
Why not show the notice below the section title, either instead of or in addition to where it is now?<br />
<br />
- [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|talk]]) 16:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:<br />
:I think this is a good question. The notice linking to the redirect is useful as a way to get to the redirect page. and it informs the reader why they are at a place they would not expect to be, but it should be displayed where it can be seen, and preferably where it is most relevant, which would usually be at the redirect target. At the section header would be appropriate for R to section. Not sure about R to anchor. Cheers &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 17:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Ah, yes, anchors, good thinking. Their essential invisibility tends to make me fail to consider them more often than not. In this context, I recken that's probably fine, though, because keeping the thing itself hidden but then implicitly or explicitly drawing attention to it in a visible notice would be a bit weird, even if there were a nice space for it.<br />
::That said, I suppose a generic phrasing like "(Redirected from [...] to this location)" would work for both, or even all three, cases. That'd leave the space issue to be solved.<br />
::- [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|talk]]) 22:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Good idea. Cuts down on confusion. How it would be implemented is another question. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 17:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{+1}} Good idea. I'd suggest filing a task on [[phab:|Phabricator]] to get some developer attention. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 18:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I've noticed that. Thanks for proposing this. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 18:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:This would've been a perfect technical wishlist submission if they hadn't just gotten rid of the technical wishlist. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 13:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Definitely "in addition", rather than "instead of". At the very least, this would help editors whose muscle memories have them press {{key|Home}} when following a redirect to a section. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There is a counterargument to be made, using the same scenario: If, after jumping to the top of the article, for whatever reason, one decides one wants to go back to the redirect's target location, again for whatever reason, the proposed change adds a new way to do that - Ctrl+F "redirected". Works either way, of course, but a bit better when there are no duplicates elsewhere.<br />
::Ah, but now that I imagine myself doing that, selecting "redirected" in the notice at the top, then Ctrl+F, then just hitting Enter once or twice may be even more convenient than typing it in. Never mind!<br />
::- (OP) [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB|2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB|talk]]) 14:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I totally support this idea, you should definitely file this on Phabricator! [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I will just mention that it works completely differently on mobile. Here, no matter where it sends you, a notice appears for a few seconds at the bottom of the screen, and then disappears. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 13:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Deprecating ''new'' unsourced articles ==<br />
<br />
After the events at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deletion of uncited articles]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced articles/Backlog drives/February 2024]], I think there is broad community consensus to ''not'' take any policy action against <u>old</u> unsourced articles. However, there should be a process in order to take action against <u>new</u> unsourced articles, because currently there are still new articles that does not have sources attached to it (see the 2023/2024 category at [[:Category:Articles without sources]]).<br />
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I propose that articles that are created after '''1st April 2024''' and '''does not have any inline sources''' to be eligible for [[WP:PROD]]. Such a PROD can only be revoked after an addition of '''one''' inline, reliable, third-party source. That source does not need to completely establish the topic's notability (because that will be decided in AfD); its only job is to verify that this topic is not a hoax. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If this proposal is accepted by the community, it would greatly streamline our efforts to cleanup uncited articles and prevent the growth of the cancerous [[:Category:Articles without sources]] backlog. In the future, this "imaginary" deadline could be gradually push backwards to tackle older and older articles, until the backlog is fully cleared. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::And if we think further in the future, such a process can also be used to tackle [[:Category:Articles with unsourced statements]] as well. This would be a glorious sight to behold. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support''' As I have already said, independent reliable sources are needed to established notability, so such sources should be made explicit by citing them in any new article. As Levivich says, an article with no sources is a blog. Hell, when I was blogging a few years ago, I always included a list of sources at the bottom of a post, so that readers could read more about the subject, if they wanted to. Not providing sources when an article is created is just being rude to other editors who are somehow expected to do the work sourcing the article that the creator could not be bothered with. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{outdent}}<br />
I envision that there will be three things that needs to be done before this proposal can be enforced:<br />
# Make a new template similar to {{tl|Proposed deletion}} for this proposal<br />
# Communicate to new editors that articles on Wikipedia must have reliable sources cited, and it is ''strongly encouraged'' that they find reliable sources before writing the article<br />
# A way to tackle editor disputes about what constitutes "third-party" and "reliable".<br />
- [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Number two is extremely difficult. Anyone who knows English could be a new editor. There are many hundreds of millions of them. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 10:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:We should also find ways to retain new editors if this proposal is enforced, because that would set an even higher barrier for entry for new editors to Wikipedia. This is the reason I why invited [[WP:Wikiproject Editor Retention]] to this topic. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Do you mean [[depreciate]] or [[deprecate]]? [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 07:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::As in discouraging. It would be bad if we start to vandalize new articles in order to [[depreciate]] them though :) [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::New editors are already forced to go through [[WP:AfC]], which is not going to approve an unsourced article. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 13:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If you think the new editor article-writing experience is so demoralizing, maybe we should just not let new editors create articles in the first place? [[Special:Contributions/2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F|2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F]] ([[User talk:2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F|talk]]) 07:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC) ''(Send talk messages [[User talk:2603:8001:4542:28fb::/64|here]])''<br />
::No. We already have the [[WP:Article wizard]] to aid completely new editors to create a new article. I think that the wizard should be shown more prominently in "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name" notification box, as well as making {{tl|AfC submission/draft}} and {{tl|AfC submission/declined}} easier to understand for new editors. But we need new editors and we MUST NOT make Wikipedia harder for newcomers to contribute. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The fundamental problem for newcomers is that editing Wikipedia is not convenient. It takes a substantial effort to do so. So, one way to make this easier is to improve on the article wizard and ask people to find a few sources before citing them. I imagine that the new article wizard would ask you for URLs/book titles (and pages), and once you create a draft it would show you how to expand these fragments of info into fully-fledged "wikipedia-compliant" citations. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 08:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Sorry for the horrendous MS Paint drawing, but this is what I envision it to be like this:<br />
::::[[File:Mockup, article wizard.png|center|400px]] [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 08:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:All of the objections raised to the two similar proposals in the last few months still apply. I really can't be bothered to repeat them again. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia here. Clearing a backlog is only incidental to this. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 08:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: I like this idea in theory, but will only support it ''once'' tools and wording changes for newcomers are instated. The risk of this detracting newcomers is high enough that I think the community should have a consensus that the new wording/templates etc. alleviate harm, and they should be ready to go before any changes are made. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 09:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I agree with this. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per all the arguments I've made before. [[WP:BURDEN]], basically. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Rather than a PROD, we should really just move new unsourced articles to draft. '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 12:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: '''This again?''' While [[WP:CCC|consensus ''can'' change]], it seems unlikely that consensus will have changed in the month since [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deletion of uncited articles]] was rejected. Let's not make this another topic area where people keep pushing essentially the same proposal with slightly different wording until, through tendentiousness and exhaustion, they manage to get something in (and then ratchet and repeat). [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 13:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Moving to Draft with a x day prod-like notice. I'm impressed by the relentless work done by a small number of overwhelmed volunteers trying to address this problem, and I support their efforts. I disagreed with the former proposal, but this one is acceptable, grandfather the existing article and raise the quality bar for new articles by a very small degree. We already do this with AfC, where quality standards are much higher, it is nothing we don't already do. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 14:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Query''': Can someone speak to how the newer entries in [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]] are ending up there? Don't all new articles these days have to go through [[WP:NPP]], which ought not to let them pass if they are unsourced? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**Did you find many such new articles? New page reviewers can mark unsourced articles reviewed if the topic is notable but I doubt that happens very often. Someone would have to sort those articles by creation/expansion-from-redirect date to find out.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710688165532:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 15:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:First one I checked from March 2024 was created by an autopatrolled editor, so even NPP wouldn't see it necessarily. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::[[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]], created March 24 or in the category March 24?<span id="Usedtobecool:1710690514437:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 15:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:::@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]], from [[:Category:Articles lacking sources from March 2024]]. (The article has since had one of its external URLs changed to a ref to remove it from the category.) [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::::The categories track the tagging date. And iirc some automated tools update tag dates when making unrelated edits. So, it's likely the new categories are just populating with old articles. Autopatrolled editors wouldn't remain autopatrolled if they created unsourced articles nowadays. I actually think autopatrolled has a higher bar than necessary but admins are very risk-averse.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710691924487:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:::::@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]], you're right, it wasn't ''created'' in March 2024, I should have looked more closely. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 16:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::::::In general, I expect almost all the articles in those categories are old articles. Notability would have to be completely obvious and there would need to be no BLP element in the article for a reviewer to pass an unsourced article in 2024, if someone were to start [[Ancient history of Botswana]] that more or less concurs with relevant content in existing articles, for example.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710693080769:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
*:I draftify all new unsourced articles I see, but sometimes the creator tendentiously undraftifies it, and per [[WP:DRAFTIFY]], I'm not allowed to redraftify it, so I just tag it. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What are they supposed to do about them? We don't delete articles [[WP:SURMOUNTABLE|just because they lack references]] and NPPers don't have a special 'article go away' button otherwise. Unless an unreferenced has [[WP:NPPBIG3|other, more immediate problems]] I think most experienced reviewers would tag it with {{tl|unreferenced}} and move on. Others might choose to bat it back and forth to draftspace a few times first, but the end result is the same. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' per the most recent discussion and disallow any new discussions on this for a few months. I've already seen several notable topics without sources or with only one source being moved to draftspace and then deleted after six months. A PROD would make this even worse. [[User:SportingFlyer|SportingFlyer]] ''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:top;">[[User talk:SportingFlyer|T]]</span>''·''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:bottom;">[[Special:Contributions/SportingFlyer|C]]</span>'' 15:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is for ''recent'' articles, not old articles. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' Unsourced articles are bad but etching explicit grandfather clauses into Wikipedia's rules is worse. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 15:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yeah, I don't like the idea of grandfathering, especially given the potential to reinforce [[WP:SYSTEMICBIAS|systemic bias]], given that Wikipedia's content is becoming more diverse over time. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 16:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::That's why there is a moving deadline to the left to clear out the backlog. Stage one of this proposal is to prevent further growth of the backlog, stage two of this proposal is to start tackling the remaining articles from newest to oldest. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''', draftifying does the trick already. There do not seem to be many (any?) totally unsourced articles that make it through NPP, so I am not sure there are any articles that this proposal applies to (the category mentioned by the nominator contains mostly old articles that have been recently tagged as unsourced). —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 16:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. From above, it appears that newly created unsourced articles are already sufficiently handled by our existing rules and processes. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 16:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Mild oppose'''. Three concerns: First, the proposal and discussion seem to be conflating unsourced articles with articles lacking inline citations. Requiring all articles to have inline citations regardless of whether any content has been or is likely to be challenged is out of step with [[WP:V]] and quite a jump from settled practice. Second, is is not clear what it means for the affected articles to be "eligible" for PROD. [[WP:PROD#Deletion]] provides the following criteria for PROD eligibility: {{tq|the page is not a redirect, never previously proposed for deletion, never undeleted, and never subject to a deletion discussion.}} So as long as the proposer reasonably believes that the deletion will be uncontroversial there doesn't appear to be any particular procedural barrier to prodding these articles now. Third, it would be helpful to see evidence that there is a problem that needs solving. A PetScan query for articles created since January 1, 2024 in [[:Category:All articles lacking sources]] gives 8 results, including [[Quilombo Caçandoca|one article]] with listed references (so tagged incorrectly but still subject to this proposal) and one that is currently up for speedy deletion. The remaining six definitely have some issues, but I'm not sure we need this level of policy change to fix what seems to be a couple-of-articles-per-month problem. (OTOH, the counterargument could well be made that this just shows that the proposal is the best kind of wiki-rule: one that simply codifies existing practice to prevent future confusion. But if that's the argument it would likewise be helpful to have some quantitative details showing how this proposal maps onto existing practice.) -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] ([[User talk:Visviva|talk]]) 17:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:For what it’s worth, on March 1 and 2 I attempted to patrol the category in question and see if it was possible for one person to keep it down to zero. It sort of is but you run into articles that are unlikely to get deleted but next to impossible to source, and then things get out of hand if you miss a day. It’s a tough project. I just want to note that this is a burden on editors to fix, and a lot of times adding a inline source to a plainly bad article doesn’t do a lot. [[User:ForksForks|ForksForks]] ([[User talk:ForksForks|talk]]) 02:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::This is exactly what I meant. This PROD would essentially be a formal enactment of our "unspoken rule", which is that new articles on Wikipedia must have sources. A lot of people here don't get it. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Have you considered that it might be "unspoken" because it's not actually a rule? &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment''' – Let's suggest something new. Before PRODDING, one should check for sources. If it turns out that the unsourced article has no reliable sources to verify, then just PROD it; otherwise, it should be draftified as an easy and less bitey than prodding. [[User:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:#fc65b8;">'''Toadette'''</span>]] <sup>''([[User talk:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:blue;">Let's discuss together!</span>]])''</sup> 21:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. This proposal is not compatible with [[WP:NEXIST]] or [[WP:ATD]]. The topic of an unsourced article is often notable. The content of unsourced articles is often accurate and verifiable. An article is not "unsourced" merely because lacks of ''inline'' citations. Deletion of an article for lack of ''inline'' citations would result in the deletion of articles on topics whose existence and notability is not only verifiable, but is actually verified with sources actually cited in the article. The proposal is a solution in search of a problem, as there is no problem with unreferenced new articles that could possibly make it expedient to create a new sticky PROD similar to the BLP PROD. We are not being swamped with unreferenced new articles, and it is very easy, and takes very little time, to do a WP:BEFORE search. I '''propose''' that there should no further proposals for the creation of an "unreferenced PROD" for the next five years. I do not believe that there is any chance of consensus for the creation of a new PROD in the near future, and the community does not have time to !vote on what is essentially the same proposal again and again and again in quick succession. It is not particularly easy to check the large number of noticeboards for perennial proposals, either. [[User:James500|James500]] ([[User talk:James500|talk]]) 23:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yet we often say in [[WP:BURDEN]] that "the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material." I do agree that retroactively apply this proposal to very old articles is a very dumb idea, but I do think that we need to ''explicitly'' communicate with new editors that new articles require at least 1 cited source. We can help them to find the sources, but ultimately the burden is on them to find it. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::This conflates notability with content; we can establish notability in the absence of sourcing in an aricle, verification of content requires sourcing. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 10:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Establishment of notability (in the Wikipedia sense) requires the existance of reliable, independent sources, so if we know what those sources are, why not cite them in the article? In other words, if no reliable, independent sources are cited in the article, where is the proof that the subject is notable? [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 13:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::This. The cognitive dissonance in these kind of arguments are deafening. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::The cognitive dissonance is the instance that [[WP:V]] says "verified with an inline reliable source from the first revision of the article" not "verifiable". If you want to change that, you need to explicitly propose amending [[WP:V]]. If you want to change "credible claim of significance" to "credible claim of significance supported by an inline citation to a reliable source" then you need to explicitly propose amending that page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::That should be obvious and needs amending now. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::Based on the number of comments in opposition here, I don't think it's obvious at all. However, if it is obvious then you will have no problem gaining consensus for the amendments. Just don't claim the consensus exists until you can provide a citation proving it does actually exist. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::I agree with DonaldAlbury above: the point of having one source, no matter if it's not reliable, or trivial, is to ensure that the [[WP:CCS]] is true. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong oppose''' I agree completely with James500. What matters is whether articles ''can be'' sourced, not whether any sources are currently listed in the article. We should be making it easier for editors (new and old) to contribute notable articles to the encyclopaedia, not putting even more barriers in their way. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' We need to build this idea that finding and including sources is step #1 of creating an article. And the burden shouldn't fall on overloaded volunteers to "prove a negative" when people don't bother with sources. But are there enough of these to be setting this up? I've done thousands of NPP's and don't think that I've ever seen one with zero sources and just a few with zero in-line sources. The widespread / pervasive volunteer-crushing problem is zero GNG sources. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I mean, nobody's forcing you to look for sources. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::The greater fool theory, that someone else will do it, is not accurate: see the backlog. See the stats that show how few experienced regular editors. If we can't support our maintainers who are in the trenches doing this work, then you are right, they should not do it. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 15:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I think the is an extension of [[WP:CIR]]. Beside it is very frustrating to see in AfDs the comments "there are sources available" and "normal editing can solve this" after which absolutely nothing happens. Not even by the editors that state that there are sources available (when you know that, why do you not add them???). <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The&nbsp;Banner</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 17:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Strong support'''. I opposed the previous proposal to remove ''all'' unsourced articles, but this encyclopedia has existed for ''23'' years, and the standards have dramatically increased since then. Back then, this might've been acceptable, but it is no longer, hasn't been for quite a while, and this just codifies that. This is also in line with [[WP:BURDEN]]; we shouldn't have to prove a lack of notability to throw these articles out. [[User:Queen of Hearts|Queen of Hearts]] <sup>she</sup>/<sub>they</sub><sup>[[User talk:Queen of Hearts|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Queen of Hearts|stalk]]</sub> 20:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong support'''. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, let's not forget that, and its {{tq|purpose is to benefit readers by presenting information on all branches of knowledge}}. As others have said, having at least one source will at least verify the topic is not a [[wp:hoax|hoax]], and will ensure that the mentioned ''knowledge'' is not fake. These unsourced articles should at the very least be moved to a draft, in my opinion. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 20:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. I don't love grandfather clauses either, but I think this is the least bad of the available solutions (the most bad being "Do nothing; just keep accumulating unsourced material indefinitely".) At some point, we have to turn the water off to the gushing pipe, and then we can focus on cleaning up the remaining mess. We really need to get across the idea of a "reverse BEFORE": ''Before'' you create or substantially add to an article, have ''in hand'' the reference material that verifies what you will write, and cite it. "Write first, hope someone sources it later, in practice let it sit unreferenced or CN tagged for the next ten years" should be an approach that is deprecated and ultimately not permitted (at least not in mainspace; if people want to do things [[WP:BACKWARD|backward]] in a draft or userspace, that's up to them.) An alternative might be to draftify unsourced new articles, and forbid returning them to mainspace until at least one source is added, but when you're already dealing with a flood, ''first turn the tap off''. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' mostly because a grandfather clause is generally a bad idea at best: why does this only become a problem on April 1, 2024? As other have pointed out, unsourced articles rarely make it through NPP and AfC, and even if we let PROD be used for this, it can still be contested and forced to go through AFD where [[WP:NEXIST]] makes it likely to be kept regardless of the number of citations in the article. The main practical effect I see is the grandfather clause, and it only makes sense if the goal of slowly removing the protection is bought into. The problem is that consensus from about a month ago doesn't show an appetite to apply this rule to articles that already exist, and without a mechanism to move the grandfather date automatically we'll have to keep having discussions to move it around which wastes time and risks running around consensus by tiring people out with constant discussions. I don't see this going well in practice. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 21:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is why I suggested that "In the future, this "imaginary" deadline could be gradually push backwards to tackle older and older articles, until the backlog is fully cleared." [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::There have been multiple recent consensuses that explicitly opposed to using prod or speedy deletion to clear the backlog, so this is clearly something the community does not want and continuing to propose it is getting tendentious. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Is there something preventing us moving such articles to draft space that necessitates creating a new hammer? Also, requiring inline citations is a step too far and seems contrary to policy. I hope this isn't really what was intended and the proposal is just badly worded. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 22:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Inline citations are essential for verifying information in an article. As stated in [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]: "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an '''inline citation''' to a reliable source that directly supports the material." [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::So, contrary to policy, you are actually seeking to bypass the challenge part (for the contentious material) and jump straight to deletion (of the entire article)? <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 08:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::The crucial part of that is {{tpq|has been challenged or is likely to be challenged}}, and nowhere does it say that deletion of the article is the appropriate course of action for verifiable but not verified material. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::In practice, this is needed because it is very difficult to verify which statements belong to which source (with an exception of very short stubs). I would say that all sentences in such an article are likely to be challenged because they establish that "this topic exists in real life" and "this topic has X, Y, Z attributes that is true". [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::That's not what the policy says though, and there has been consensus against treating ''all'' unsourced statements as likely to be challenged because the person doing the challenging must assess whether the claim is a "sky is blue" type claim (and thus doesn't need a source), plausibly true (in which case they should attempt to find a source, and add it if found or tag it if not) or completely implausible (in which case they should remove it from the article). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 03:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. It is necessary that articles be based on sources, but not that the sources be cited in-line. Other, less [[WP:BITE]]y methods are better ways to address this issue than quickly deleting new articles. Such as a more leisurely deletion process or drafification. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment'''. My reading of the previous discussions was that there is a consensus against (or at least a marked lack of consensus for) automatic deletion of unreferenced articles, old or new. Those previous proposals were weakened by a lack of clarity in scope and terminology, and it seems that this proposal is too:<br />
**What do you consider an {{tq|unsourced}} article? An un''referenced'' article? An article consisting of one or more un''cited'' claims? Or one that is not based on ''sources'', cited or not? Those are not synonyms, and anyone who has got stuck into trying to write or salvage articles will know that there is a big difference between an article that lacks citations and an article that lacks sources. <br />
**What is an {{tq|inline source}}? Do you expect people to copy the whole text into the article, or do you mean [[WP:INCITE|inline citation]]? In which case, how do you square this new requirement with [[WP:MINREF]], [[WP:GENREF]], [[WP:LISTVERIFY]], and [[WP:LEADCITE]]? <br />
**What is a "third-party source"? Elsewhere, that phrase can mean either ''independent'' ([[WP:GNG]]) or ''tertiary'' ([[WP:PSTS]]). In both cases, this would contradict current policy: ''independent'' sources are only required to demonstrate notability, and [[WP:NPOSSIBLE|need not be present in the article]]; ''tertiary'' sources are described by [[WP:NOR]] as less desirable than secondary ones.<br />
**What does it mean to be {{tq|eligible for PROD}}? All articles are eligible for PROD, ''if'' the deletion is expected to be uncontroversial. Does this remove the 'uncontroversial' requirement? Does that mean that this new type of PROD can be used multiple times? Or after an AfD?<br />
**If the only purpose of the required source is to {{tq|verify that this topic is not a hoax}}, what information actually needs to be in it? Or should it verify some of the article content? If so, how much? If not, where are you supposed to put the citation, if it doesn't actually relate to any actual article text? What about articles that are obviously not hoaxes (i.e. most of them)?<br />
:This would be a massive change to our inclusion standards. It needs to be properly thought through. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 07:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[User:Joe Roe|Joe Roe]], I think all of these concerns are very valid and thus this proposal is not complete. Should I move this to the idea lab? [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Maybe not this specific discussion, which is already quite long. If you want to develop this idea further, I'd suggest going back to basics and asking what ''encyclopaedic'' purpose a mandatory citation for each new article would serve (i.e. beyond just removing it from [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]]). &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 11:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I wish that the opposers would detail more about what this proposal is missing rather than just regurgitating talking points. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' There is already a process that works (draftification through NPP), there is no need to complicate that. [[User:Curbon7|Curbon7]] ([[User talk:Curbon7|talk]]) 09:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - here are, at time of writing, the latest uncited articles created today which under this proposal would be prodded: [[Lake Rabon (South Carolina)]], [[Last Train To Fortune]], [[Khereshwar Temple]], [[Teluk Bahang River]], [[2024 Salzburg local elections]], [[Henry VI's Conquest of Sicily]]. I'm not seeing those articles as any more problematic than other similar unsourced articles. I think it is better that we make a judgement about which articles we delete rather than simply sweep away everything that meets a broad criteria. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 15:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:[[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]], all of them are either PRODDed or have one citation. Problem solved. [[Lake Rabon (South Carolina)]] is the only article here that currently does not have one ''inline'' citation and that should change now. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::So our current system works, no? None of the articles have been prodded, but those which were problematic have been moved to Draft space as appropriate. Some of those may be moved back into main space after they have been worked on. Better to go to Draft than to be deleted. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 17:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. First of all, as one of the patrollers, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NPP_flowchart.svg flowchart of NPP] clearly state that unsourced articles have to be draftified, not PROD-ed. PROD only applies to BLP articles that are unsourced, not other articles. If this is implemented, the procedure of NPP will have to be changed as well which requires further discussion before it can be implemented. We have to also consider [[WP:ATD]] where alternatives before deletion have to be considered before moving on to the deletion. This proposal also didn't consider [[WP:NEXIST]] - where the notability is based on the availability of sources, not the current state of the article where it may or may not be sourced. Finally, I think there is no need for this. Sending them to draft is enough for them to fix the article, or if they didn't want to fix it, it will be deleted anyway. [[User:SunDawn|<span style="background-color:black; color:orange;">&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;</span>]] [[User talk:SunDawn|<span style="color:blue;"><span style="font-size:85%;">(contact)</span></span>]] 16:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That's a good point. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The first edit to any new page should contain at least one source. One source is the minimum we should require for any page in mainspace. One source is the minimum we should require from anyone creating a new page in mainspace. One source is the minimum required to show that an edit or an article meets [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]], and [[WP:NOR]], our core content policies. One source is not too much to ask. And for this reason, there is little reason to save an unsourced draft. Without a source, a Wikipedia article is meaningless. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*: Isn't the reason to draftify an article exactly so that it can be brought up to mainspace standards before living in mainspace? [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 05:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::A draft with no sources is useless, it doesn't help anyone start an article, because you need at least one source in order to summarize sources. Also, while a petty concern, the editor who started an unsourced draft shouldn't get article creation credit. The first step of writing an article is to gather sources; people who write stuff off the top of their head are just blogging, not writing a Wikipedia article. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Just because sources are not explicitly listed does not mean they weren't used when writing the page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::It doesn't matter if they were used or not, if the sources are not listed in the draft, the draft is not helpful to anyone else. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::Firstly that is irrelevant, secondly it's not true. If someone has written an article about a topic but not included sources then another editor can find sources to verify the claims in the article without needing to know the claims (or even the topic) exist. There is no guarantee of course that such claims will present a comprehensive and neutral view of the topic, but that's true regardless of whether all, none or some of the claims are sourced. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 16:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Irrelevant? You're the one who brought it up. I agree, it doesn't matter if sources were used or not used in the creation of an article, what's relevant is whether sources are listed in the article or not. If the sources aren't listed in the article, when second editor comes along in order to improve the unsourced article, the second editor has to start by looking at sources and coming up with a summary of those sources. Then the second editor can look at the unsourced draft and yeah, ''maybe'' the unsourced draft will magically be a perfect summary of the sources. This is, obviously, highly unlikely. ''At the very most'', in this highly unlikely scenario, the unsourced article would have saved the second editor a bit of typing. But that time saved typing is cancelled out by the time spent reading the unsourced draft and comparing it to the source material to see if it matches. That's a waste of time. I would never read an unsourced draft -- it doesn't matter what the heck is written there if there is no source listed. I would just gather the sources and write my own summary, completely ignoring the unsourced draft. It's ''useless'' to an actual article writer.<br />
*::::::And why do some editors spend so much energy defending unsourced articles? FFS, this is Wikipedia, it's coming up on almost 25 years now. The first step in writing an article is to gather not one source, or two, but three high-quality, GNG-compliant sources. If you don't have that, you don't have a notable topic, you aren't verifying what you're writing, you're just ''blogging'', not writing a summary of secondary sources. Writing off the top of one's head about a topic is not the same thing as summarizing sources. And if somebody's off-the-top-of-their-head blog happens to line up with an NPOV summary of high-quality RS, that's just like a freak coincidence, man. That is not what we should be striving for, or even tolerating, on Wikipedia. "But what if the bloggers happens to be right?" is an lol argument.<br />
*::::::If an editor happened to use sources in drafting the unsourced article and just forgot to put them in there, that's easily fixed. When the article is prodded, tagged for CSD, or AFD'd, the editor can add the sources. Heck, even after it's deleted, the editor can get it REFUNDed and add the sources.<br />
*::::::Much more likely, the unsourced article is unsourced because the author didn't summarize sources, they wrote off the top of their head. This is not worth saving, nor is it worth defending.<br />
*::::::Wikipedia articles are summaries of secondary sources. That's what they ''are'', and if they don't summarize secondary sources, then they're ''not'' Wikipedia articles, even if they're hosted at wikipedia.org. The starting point for every article and every editor is sources. Anyone who starts anywhere else is doing it wrong.<br />
*::::::Someday, more Wikipedia editors will come to realize this, and eventually Wikipedia will actually as a matter of policy ''require'' sources for ''all'' statements in mainspace. It's rather an indictment of Wikipedia that this was not the first policy, and that it's still not policy almost 25 years later. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::I wasn't the one to bring this up, you brought it up in response to Zero. I'm not saying that it's not better to have sources in a draft (obviously it is), so most of your arguments are refuting something I'm not claiming. My only point here was that an unsourced draft can be helpful. <br />
*:::::::You are entitled to your opinion about how other people's workflows for writing articles is "wrong", but unless and until there is a consensus to modify [[WP:V]], [[WP:N]], [[WP:AGF]] and other core policies you don't get to impose your opinion on the encyclopaedia. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::What in the world am I doing that would be considered "imposing my opinion on the encyclopedia"? Comments like this is why I get frustrated discussing things with you. Nobody here is imposing anything on anyone, and this IS an RFC about modifying policy. This IS the right place to express the views I've expressed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''', because this creates a new type of deletion, which makes new page patrol and deletion workflows more complex. I believe that all new deletion proposals should work within our existing types of deletion. I think it would make more sense to expand the scope of BLPPROD, than to add a brand new NOSOURCESPROD that is in addition to the almost obsolete PROD (since folks always just unprod these and they end up at AFD) and BLPPROD. I will also note that many new page patrollers automatically draftify or BLPPROD articles without sources. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 21:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tq|almost obsolete PROD (since folks always just unprod these and they end up at AFD)}}. Try looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary the evidence] rather than repeating silly tropes. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 22:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Hi @[[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]]. I don't think we've interacted before. It's nice to meet you. [[User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary]] appears to be a list of current prods. Got any reports that list the outcomes of prods, such as deprod vs delete? My point is that many prods are de-prodded, which then requires the patroller to follow up with an AFD. This is my anecdotal experience with using prod during NPP. Thanks. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 23:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Nice to meet you too. That link points to many articles where the PROD tag has been there for nearly a week and nobody has removed it, making your claim that that always happens false. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 14:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' if a new article is sent for deletion ''solely because there are currently no sources'', that's a bad rationale for deletion and a failure of [[WP:BEFORE]]. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That is a good argument to get rid of [[WP:BEFORE]] too. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The&nbsp;Banner</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 17:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Articles on notable topics which would be worth having but don't yet meet mainspace standards (lack of sourcing is only one possible reason) should be draftified. That is a step towards eventually having a good article, while deletion is a step away; I think it is obvious which is better for the encyclopedia. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 05:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:PROD would force that article to be improved or to be moved to draftspace. And frankly, why is it so difficult to cite one source in an article about a notable topic? I don't get the opposers' reasoning here. If there is no source in an article, how could we know that this article is not a total fabrication? [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as above, contradicts [[WP:NEXIST]]; unclear that this necessarily resolves a problem - as the February unreferenced backlog drive showed, even experienced Wikipedians were making mistakes and incorrectly sourcing articles. Regards, --[[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 11:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' per other guidelines and many other opposers, that sources existing and existing notability is enough to not use an enhanced PROD process. I am not a very big fan of draft space (I think working in articles space where there's many eyes is often better if it seems notable. And user space or off wiki is better at the stage where notability is unclear or if someone wants to draft an article solo.). However, I could see supporting a properly crafted proposal that articles less than 90 days old and entirely unsourced when draftified with care (so maybe a very weak form of [[WP:BEFORE]] is done) cannot be moved back to article space without adding at least one source that has a credible claim of at minimum verifying the article. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 15:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''MILD SUPPORT''' I think that any articles without citations should either provide a source or be deleted.{{pb}}But there should be a ~month long period to provide sources before deletion occurs. [[User:Redacted II|Redacted II]] ([[User talk:Redacted II|talk]]) 17:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I know this is not going to succeed, but ultimately only this approach is consistent with the widespread (and beneficial) practice of improving verifiability by removing unsourced content from articles—which can only be restored if there is a reliable source. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 05:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''; not sure there is much more to be said about why this would not be a great idea. I think this would go against the spirit of the project, and that it would be a very costly move in return for not much improvement. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 05:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is not a "very costly move" as you have said, as multiple editors has pointed out that this is not that much different to how modern Wikipedia processes new unsourced articles. We just don't allow them to come to the mainspace. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support'''. I also see this as unlikely to succeed, but I'd prefer to see the project move into this direction. I think it would be an improvement to require that article creators include at least one source, and I do not see current procedure as sufficient to deal with the unsourced article problem. I can understand the objections based on grandfathering, but I would prefer the harms of temporary inequity over the harms of doing nothing. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. I don't think the citation needs to be ''inline'', but geez y'all, it's 2024, citations are expected in everyday culture now, anyone dumping an unsourced article into mainspace (without followup edits) nowadays is willfully ignoring our requirements and clearly has no plans to join the community. We don't need to protect these precious new editors, and we don't need to retain unsupported information that would be deleted if it was in any other format than a standalone page. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 16:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Levivich. [[User:Ajpolino|Ajpolino]] ([[User talk:Ajpolino|talk]]) 19:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. To be sure, a new, truly unsourced article is very likely to be hit by NPP for draftification, prod, or AFD (perhaps even when it really shouldn't). It's good practice to include at least some references. However, some editors take a narrow view of sourcing and consider implicit sources as "unsourced" when it really isn't (i.e. a newbie editor simply writing out "According to Joe Bloggs, blah blah blah..."). Secondly, the main case where valid "unsourced" articles exist are generally the frontiers that are good to create articles on for [[WP:CSB]] grounds. These are often translations of other language's wikipedia articles where there very well may be sources, but not ones easily consulted in English. Now, yes, other language Wikipedia editions have weaker notability requirements than enwiki, and yes, some of these are just authentically unsourced in the other language too. But this case is large enough that there will still be cases of ''plainly'' notable people who don't have articles yet, and deleting the articles out of misguided "consistency" doesn't make sense. Better to keep the article simple and non-controversial and wait on someone familiar with the foreign language sources, instead. Keeping this situation a valid option for creating an article means opposing the proposal. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 20:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Do I feel comfortable to say that we tolerate unsourced articles because someday, somebody will magically put a citation into it? No. Without work from the [[WP:WikiProject Unreferenced articles]], [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]] backlog would now have >150k articles and will keep growing from here. Plus, by de facto standard, we already ''strongly recommended'' that new articles should have an inline citation. Why is it so difficult to codify that into policy? If you translate an article from a foreign language to English, then it is very trivial for them to copy the citations to the English version of the article or find one source that verify that this topic/subject actually exist. It's not that difficult. If you want new editors to understand the new PROD criteria, why not being more clear in the Article Wizard that Wikipedia articles need to have sources? And if my proposal sounds BITEy, then that's because the whole PROD/AfD process itself is BITEy. Please, if that's the reason why you opposed my proposal, please suggest changes to PROD and AfD instead. This is not my fault.<br />
*:You might ask, why do I demand an inline citation in my proposal? This is because an inline citation helps me to verify a specific statement in the article. If that reference is placed below, a reader would have no idea what is the specific statement that we are referring to. Just to mention this, most new editors nowadays don't start out editing in wikicode, they start out with VisualEditor. When they fire up VisualEditor for the first time there is an explicit instruction dialog hovering below the citation button that instructs you how to make an inline citation. It's really not that hard to do for a beginner. Even if VisualEditor somehow cannot process your URL, you can always type that citation in plain text.<br />
*:And why do I ask that citation must come from reliable source? Because we don't want people to write an article about a notable topic with absolutely shitty sources, like Twitter posts, gossip websites, forums, etc. If the whole article is talking about the [[Ancient history of Botswana]] and every citation in that article refers to a self-published Blogger page, then that article is just as useless as it is uncited, because we cannot verify whether that article is spewing out myths or not. Many editors here objected my proposal due to [[WP:NEXIST]], but why is it so hard to ask people just cite one of those excellent sources to the first sentence, to verify that this topic ''actually exists'' in real life?<br />
*:I'm just gonna sum up my proposal as follows. Missing content on Wikipedia is terrible. Having incorrect content masquerading as facts on Wikipedia is much, much worse. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. I would think that if one was going to go through the expense of yet another RFC on the same theme (the third within six months?), it would have at least been better thought out. As Joe Roe and others have highlighted, clearly it is not. Anyway, we should not introduce this new process, subtly different from existing ones yet also similar and overlapping in purpose. I hesitate to expand our assortment of procedural mechanisms for deletion or quasi-deletion, which is already confusing to editors. [[User:Adumbrativus|Adumbrativus]] ([[User talk:Adumbrativus|talk]]) 04:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' [[WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP]], and neither is PROD. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 06:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:It ''is'' cleanup, in that a PROD indicates that "this article that does not have inline citations does not belong to Wikipedia". And it is not wrong to do so, because it corresponds to our current best practices. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' There is no excuse for creating an unsourced article in 2024. Unsourced articles cannot be repaired by adding sources; they must be rewritten because without the sources we cannot tell if they are COPYVIO. [[User:Hawkeye7|<span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span>]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|<span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span>]] 08:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The bar needs to be raised. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 11:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:No, this particular bar '''should not''' be raised. The proposal is about new unsourced articles and suggests to delete them instead of draftifying as we currently do. This would make our problem of [[WP:BITE]]ing newbies worse and give less feedback on how to write an acceptable article, without any change to the amount of unsourced content in mainspace. The backlog of unsourced articles is completely unconnected to the new articles that this proposal is about. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 14:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::How/when would that happen? Due to the backlog due to a handful of active NPP'ers being asked to do too much of the million editors' work and otherwise being too difficult and painful, it won't even get looked at at NPP until after the draftifying time limit runs out. Not that I think that there are very many completely unsourced new articles. The pervasive problem is lack of GNG sources for articles that need those. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 14:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - the suggestion has already been turned down, apparently twice - no justification for bringing it up again so soon. For the rest, as per James500 and Joe. [[User:Ingratis|Ingratis]] ([[User talk:Ingratis|talk]]) 16:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:The last proposal said that we should PROD all articles right now that does not have a source. That's absolute lunacy. What I'm suggesting here is what the community has effectively done to new articles since 2020. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' I'm confused about what {{re|CactiStaccingCrane}} is proposing here. The header claims the proposal is (1) "deprecating new unsourced articles". But then he says (2) {{tq|I propose that articles that [...] [do] not have any inline sources}} can be PRODed. Unsourced articles aren't the same as articles lacking inline citations. He then specifies (3) "Such a PROD can only be revoked after an addition of one inline, reliable, third-party source" – apparently raising the bar even higher, since articles lacking inline, reliable, third-party citations aren't the same as articles merely lacking inline citations. There must be clarity on what exactly is proposed to be changed. – [[User:Teratix|Tera]]'''[[User talk:Teratix|tix]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Teratix|₵]] 16:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' Seems to be covered well by existing (albeit broken) processes. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Make Todays Featured List appear exactly every 3 days instead of 3-4 days ==<br />
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'll ask it here. <br />
<br />
Something that I've always been confused about is why TDL has a schedule where one list will appear three days after a list and then the next list will appear 4 days after instead of just three days again. I don't see how this could be for "we could run out of unique lists" purposes because there are over 3100 lists that haven't been featured on the main page. <br />
<br />
So I propose that Todays Featured List should appear every 3 days instead of every 3-4 days on the main page. [[User:Onegreatjoke|Onegreatjoke]] ([[User talk:Onegreatjoke|talk]]) 00:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Per [[Wikipedia:Today's featured list]], it's because TFL appears Mondays and Fridays, aligning with days of the week. That seems to work fine, so I don't see a need for a change. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 08:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Exactly. Keep it on Mondays and Fridays! [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 05:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think the "every Monday and Friday" pattern makes it easier for people to know when to look for it than your proposal would. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If you want to have more TFLs (no idea whether that is a good idea or not), just go for three times per week. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 17:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Creating Disambiguation page ==<br />
<br />
The page “People’s Publishing House” is redirecting to a Beijing based People’s Press.<br />
<br />
please remove this redirect and instead create a disambiguation page of “People’s Publishing House”, so that other pages with similar names, for example “People’s Publishing House (India) can be listed on that disambiguationmpage. [[User:Pallav.journo|Pallav.journo]] ([[User talk:Pallav.journo|talk]]) 10:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If they really are of equal importance then a two-entry disambiguation page may be the best solution. However, the new article you created, [[People’s Publishing House (India)]], currently has only one primary source and may be at risk of deletion. Even if the new article remains, {{-r|People's Publishing House}} may be retained as a [[WP:primary redirect|primary redirect]] if the Chinese state press is deemed much more significant than a private company. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 10:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Proposal: Add a link to the [[WP:Contents]] page either on the Main Page itself or on the mobile sidebar ==<br />
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I found that it is very hard to get to the [[WP:Contents]] page in mobile view. Instead, I would have to search for in the search bar and go into desktop view to access it. I am proposing that we include this page somewhere on the main page. No opinion on where to put it on the main page, but my first thought would be to put it the other areas of Wikipedia section. Please comment with your thoughts below. [[User:Interstellarity|Interstellarity]] ([[User talk:Interstellarity|talk]]) 00:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:There is a link to [[WP:Contents/Portals]] already there. Having both that and [[WP:Contents]] would probably be redundant - which one is more useful on the main page? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&diff=1215088396Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)2024-03-23T00:47:50Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Proposal: Add a link to the WP:Contents page either on the Main Page itself or on the mobile sidebar */ Reply</p>
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<div>{{redirect|WP:PROPOSE|proposing article deletion|Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|and|Wikipedia:Deletion requests}}<br />
<noinclude>{{short description|Discussion page for new proposals}}{{pp-move-indef}}{{Village pump page header|Proposals|alpha=yes|<br />
The '''proposals''' section of the [[Wikipedia:Village pump|village pump]] is used to offer specific changes for discussion. ''Before submitting'':<br />
* Check to see whether your proposal is already described at '''[[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals|Perennial proposals]]'''. You may also wish to search the [[Wikipedia:FAQ index|FAQ]].<br />
* This page is for '''concrete, actionable''' proposals. Consider developing earlier-stage proposals at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)|Village pump (idea lab)]].<br />
* Proposed '''policy''' changes belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)|Village pump (policy)]].<br />
* Proposed '''speedy deletion criteria''' belong at [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion]].<br />
* Proposed '''WikiProjects''' or '''task forces''' may be submitted at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals]].<br />
* Proposed '''new wikis''' belong at [[meta:Proposals for new projects]].<br />
* Proposed '''new articles''' belong at [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]].<br />
* Discussions or proposals which warrant the '''attention or involvement of the Wikimedia Foundation''' belong at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)]].<br />
* '''Software''' changes which have consensus should be filed at [[phabricator:|Phabricator]].<br />
Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for nine days.<br />
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== RfC: Converting all current and future community discretionary sanctions to (community designated) contentious topics procedure ==<br />
{{anchor|RfC:_Converting_all_current_and_future_general_sanctions_to_(community_designated)_contentious_topics_procedure|rfc_3C022D9|rfc_E7BE9C3}}<br />
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{{rfc|policy|prop|rfcid=B8F09A8}}<br />
Should all community discretionary sanctions (DS) be updated to use the new contentious topics procedure? [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] Refreshed 01:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC) 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC) <br />
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=== Background ===<br />
<br />
In late 2022/early 2023, the [[WP:DSOLD|discretionary sanctions]] procedure was overhauled by ArbCom and converted to "[[WP:CTOP|contentious topics]]". With now two different processes for two different kinds of sanctions there is now a lot of fragmentation and inconsistency in how contentious topics should be handled, with even conflicting wording. The main goal of this RfC is to unify the procedure used for all areas where general sanctions are in effect with the one designated by ArbCom, going forward.<br />
<br />
As proposed at this time, there will be the some similarities and differences between community and arbitration contentious topics, including:<br />
* The imposition of the standard set of restrictions by consensus of administrators in a community designated topic would be at [[WP:ANI]] rather than [[WP:AE]].<br />
* Reconsideration of contentious topic restrictions would be done at [[WP:AN]] instead of at [[WP:AE]] or [[WP:ARCA]].<br />
* Awareness of a community contentious topic would include but not be limited to being mentioned in the discussion closing summary regarding that contentious topic, which is the closest there is to a "final decision".<br />
<br />
And of course, ArbCom would be able to convert community contentious topics to those designated by the committee, after which all the ArbCom venues would have to be used from that point forward, though existing restrictions would remain appealable to [[WP:AN]] until renewed at ArbCom.<br />
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=== Survey (community contentious topics) ===<br />
* '''Support''' as proposer. It needs to be clear, especially for new editors, what contentious topics are and what the expectations are for editing topics designated as contentious by either ArbCom or the community. A unified procedure will ensure consistency rather than fragmentation and will make editing the list of contentious topics and their restrictions much easier. (I did do a little bit of work in the [[Module:Sanctions/sandbox]] adding in support for ArbCom contentious topics, as it would make it so much easier to use the related sanction templates. I also did work in user space to help envision what a unified contentious topics page might look like.) [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong Oppose''' The current iteration of [[WP:CTOP]] is far too tied in to the Arbitration Committee. The available sanctions and procedures are under the jurisdiction of [[WP:AC/PR]] can be modified by the Committee by motion at any time, which in this scenario would be binding on decisions made by the community without community consensus. Additionally, many of the General Sanctions areas have a set of restrictions that either exceed what CTOP would allow, or have a more limited subset of them. The community currently has the flexibility to customize sanctions based on the needs of the individual topic area (similar to how Arbcom can impose their own restrictions either alone or on top of the CTOP designation), rather than relying on a "one size fits all" solution. Regarding the possibility of Arbcom choosing to convert community-based CTOP to Arbitration Enforcement, the Committee already has the power to supercede and convert General Sanctions. They've done so before, in cases including [[WP:ARBCC]] and [[WP:ARBTPM]]. This proposal as written would reduce the community's autonomy and flexibility for the sake of consistency, and I don't see that as a net positive.{{pb<br />
}}I would, however, support the community adopting a "standard/default" DS language that could be used when customization isn't needed, and reviewing all the existing GS areas to see if they should be abolished or modernized. Updating our own process, templates, info pages etc to completely separate from the Arbcom version would also accomplish this proposal's goal of reducing confusion and would be better than the current system of ''sometimes linking to CTOP, sometimes linking DS which redirects to CTOP (when they really mean the older version of DS), sometimes a completely different thing with no consistency''. [[Template:Gs/alert]] is one example of this, where it links to [[WP:CTOP]] even when the actual restrictions are unrelated to that designation. Revamping our own procedures would be a better way to reduce fragmentation and confusion than glomming onto what Arbcom chooses to do. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 18:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I am not exactly seeing how this is a dealbreaker. The CT procedure applies only to designated contentious topics; community consensus or arbitration remedies can always add additional sanctions regardless of [[WP:CTOP]] like in [[WP:ARBPIA]]. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 22:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' The phrase "discretionary sanctions" is not clear and so the phrase "contentious topics" was introduced as an improvement. We should have clear and consistent language for contentious matters so that discussions and actions are comprehensible. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 08:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The "sanctions regimes" are too complex as it is, and we need to use consistent terminology to reduce that complexity when possible. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 13:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The [[WP:CTOP|contentious topics procedure]] incorporates [[WP:CT/DS|all of the improvements]] from the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review|2021-22 review of the discretionary sanctions procedure]]. Compared to the [[WP:OLDDS|discretionary sanctions procedure]], the contentious topics procedure is much easier to understand and follow. For example, many editors currently [[WP:OLDDS#aware.aware|need to be reminded of topic areas under community sanctions every 12 months]] to be eligible for certain remedies, which [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review/Consultation#Awareness|led to complaints in the 2021-22 review]]. Switching from discretionary sanctions to contentious topics would eliminate this requirement: {{xt|"[[WP:CT/DS#Awareness of contentious topics|Editors no longer need to be alerted every 12 months, as they are presumed to remain aware after their first alert.]]"}} —&nbsp;'''''[[User:Newslinger|<span style="color:#536267;">Newslinger</span>]]'''&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Newslinger#top|<span style="color:#708090;">talk</span>]]</small>'' 04:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' making the rules clear and consistent to all users. A big part of the problems I've had with DS is that I couldn't tell what was expected of me. No comment on whether this new way of doing things is better or worse than the old one, but it sounds like this isn't that conversation. I 100% support clear and proactive explanations of what Wikipedia does and does not want from its editors. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 16:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' making the rules clear and consistent for all editors. [[User:Let&#39;srun|Let&#39;srun]] ([[User talk:Let&#39;srun|talk]]) 19:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' standardization — as is, the current discrepancy is an unintended relic, not a feature. Community-imposed vs Arbcom-imposed sanctions is a clerical, technical distinction, and I cannot think of any good reason not to streamline the two into the same concept, for the sake of simplicity and understanding. [[User:Swarm|<span style="color:black">'''~Swarm~'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Swarm|<span style="color:DarkViolet">{sting}</span>]]</sup> 02:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Contentious topics is confusing enough by itself. Two similar but not identical rules is too much. I support any efforts to standardize our sanction systems. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 02:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' in the abstract – it might require some case-by-casing, but I think in general, having one set of rules for everyone is much cleaner and easier to understand for those trying to follow the road. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' (despite abstract support) as ANI has generally been the wrong forum for General Sanctions work. In my mind it should be a pump or AN and ANI should be out of the whole system. I also think it's a missed opportunity to not allow community GS to be heard at AE. There is already the community option for AN but this proposal would have created the option of using AE which is the forum many think about anyway. Outside of these details I'm supportive of the effort (given the fact that amongthe few who have expressed an opinion there seems to be overall support). [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 14:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' [[User:Иованъ|Ivan]] ([[User talk:Иованъ|talk]]) 20:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support''' - I don't have anything to add beyond what Galobtter said - perfectly expressed. —[[User:Ganesha811|Ganesha811]] ([[User talk:Ganesha811|talk]]) 01:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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=== Discussion (community contentious topics) ===<br />
==== Cooperation of ArbCom ====<br />
I wonder if adding in stuff to the [[WP:CTOP]] page and similar would require the petition and referendum process. If so, then I guess the merging of templates would have to hold off until a former petition and request for amendment actually passes. It is possible ArbCom will green light the merge if this RfC passes, but I do not know. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 05:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I feel the community should work with the arbitration committee to assume responsibility for the contentious topic process, with a pointer to an arbitration-committee specific page where it can customize the process as it feels necessary. This would bring the process under community control, while still allowing the arbitration committee to adapt it to its needs. (There is no change to arbitration policy and so no need to amend it.) [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wouldn't that just be the status quo (or perhaps the old GS/DS) status quo? I think Arbcom is more agile than the community in drafting this kimd language given that passing a motion is easier than an RfC and motions can be adjusted mid vote which is nearly impossible to do with an RfC. Truthfully I think the right place to start is with the standardized language for community GS and perhaps to be more intentional about whether it wants its restrictions to be eligible to be heard at AE, though as The Wordsmith points out there are really good reasons for the community to decide not to do that. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 04:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The process for authorizing discretionary sanctions was documented by the committee, and then later the community started authorizing discretionary sanctions, with its process pointing to the Arbitration Committee pages and saying, "like that". This resulted in the community's process being coupled to decisions made by the arbitration committee. I'm suggesting the reverse: have the community assume responsibility for the contentious topics process, and then the arbitration committee can point to it and say, "like that, but with our specific customizations". I agree the community can decide on its own on what contentious topic process it wants to create. I think it would be good, though, to check with the committee that it is amenable to adopting the community process as a base, and layering any desired differences on top. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 04:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::That also sounds like a good idea: community authorizes the remedies that are appropriate, ArbCom implements them. If ArbCom were to deviate then they would just need to ask the community whether it is an appropriate deviation or not. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 17:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::The committee doesn't have to be constrained by the community as it is already authorized through the arbitration policy to enact remedies of its devising for matters within its scope. It would be simpler for editors to understand, though, if the arbitration committee version of the process was just a set of differences upon a common process. Differences could include things like additional administrator actions that could be performed, or a specific venue for appeals. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::I think you know what I mean :)<br />
::::::[[WP:ARBECR]] is already used a lot by both the community and by ArbCom, like in [[WP:RUSUKR]] and [[WP:CT/A-I]]. What I am saying is if ArbCom feels that a specific sanction that there has never been any precedent for is necessary, they should propose it to the community, where there then can be consensus on the exact wording. Placement, enforcement, and appeals are all going to differ though depending on whether the restriction is placed by the community or ArbCom. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 18:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::The community can provide feedback on proposed decisions. I disagree that the committee needs to obtain community consensus on new types of remedies. The arbitration committee is empowered to impose a restriction that community consensus has been unable to reach through prior dispute resolution. If you are referring specifically to the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Standard set|standard set of restrictions]] that can be imposed for designated contentious topics, I still disagree that community consensus should be mandatory. Typically the committee will provide an opportunity for feedback and the last review of discretionary sanctions illustrates that it strives to lighten the load of enforcing administrators. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:17, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Regarding the extended-confirmed restriction, it was initially devised by the committee on its own. After taking some time to evaluate its effectiveness, the community chose to adopt it as an available restriction. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I agree with isaacl that ARBPOL and CONEXEMPT explicitly mean that the committee does not have to, with-in its scope, get community consensus. {{pb}}However, ECR is a example of why I think the committee is better placed at the moment to be a leader when it comes to contentious topics. The committee having to deal with the absolute hardest conflicts means there is going to be more of an incentive to try something new and ~15 people are going to have an easier time getting to yes than what is required to get community consensus for that newness. It's also revealing to me that ArbCom gets more requests for us to assume community imposed sanctions (examples: COVID, Horn of Africa as two that the committee did assume and Russia-Ukraine War as one that committee has twice been asked to assume and haven't). I would really love it if the community could, as it does in so many other ways, demonstrate broader capabilities when it comes to general sanctions than it has in the past. And to that end getting consensus for some standard wording would be a great place to start. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 19:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I agree that the arbitration committee is better positioned to try new approaches (consensus doesn't scale up well, so getting consensus amongst 15 people is definitely easier). In a similar vein as you expressed, I feel it would be ideal for the community to agree on a base contentious topics process, which the committee could extend in new ways that the community could later choose to incorporate back into the base process. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
In [[WP:DS2022]], one of the [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics/2021-22 review#AE noticeboard|changes made]] was to allow the community to make use of AE. I think we should do so. <b style="font-family:Courier New;">[[User:HouseBlaster|House]][[Special:Contributions/HouseBlaster|<span style="color:#7D066B;">Blaster</span>]]</b>&nbsp;([[User talk:HouseBlaster|talk]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/him) 03:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I definitely think we should split contentious topics from [[WP:AELOG]]. A separate contentious topics log would make restrictions much easier to follow - and, if the restriction is rescinded or converted from community to ArbCom or the other way around - it can be logged as well. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 21:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==== Request revision to initial question ====<br />
The statement {{tq|all community general sanctions (DS)}} in the initial question is misleading. "General sanctions" is not synonymous with community authorization for discretionary sanctions. I think the intent should be clarified that the proposal only affects discretionary sanctions authorized by the community, and not all general sanctions. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 19:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{u|Isaacl}} Done. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 20:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==== Tag Refreshed ====<br />
I refreshed the RfC tag because there is not enough input to gauge consensus. Could this be because this is uncontroversial or what? [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 19:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Could well be :) [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 10:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I think it's because many editors simply don't know what's going on. I didn't know this discussion was taking place. I'm still not sure what the change in policy ''is'', only that, if it has been changed, the system should be clear about it. Are we dissolving Discretionary Sanctions? Is AE not going to be a thing any more? Is it merging with ANI? [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 22:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] The question is really just about making community sanctions use the new contentious topics procedure. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 23:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Okay. What is the new CT procedure? Do you know how it's different? I just read through one of the links that Newslinger provided above, and I'm having trouble picking out differences. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 00:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::For full details, see [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics]]. It's basically a renamed version of discretionary sanctions, with changes made based on community feedback received during the 2021–22 review of discretionary sanctions. Some highlights: there is a [[Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Standard set|standard set of restrictions]] that a single administrator can impose on their own discretion. Restrictions outside of these can be imposed by a consensus discussion at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Sanctions are no longer limited to one year, but after a year, sanctions that were imposed by a single adminstrator no longer have to be discussed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard to be modified. <del>Users no longer have to be made aware of each specific topic area. They only have to be notified once using a specific template about the contentious topic system.</del> <small>Striking out inaccurate description.</small> [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 01:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{tq|Users no longer have to be made aware of each specific topic area. They only have to be notified once using a specific template about the contentious topic system.}} That would contradict the CTOP regime. Even among the Arbcom sanctions, editors still have to be notified about topic areas individually. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 19:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::My apologies; I misspoke. A specific template only has to be used for the first notification about the contentious topic system in general. Subsequently, any form of notification can be used to inform a given user about specific contentious topics. Previously, a specific template had to be used for each affected topic area. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Again, not all community sanctions, but community-authorized discretionary sanctions. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 01:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Is it time for a new design for the main page? ==<br />
<br />
Hi, Wikipedians,<br />
<br />
I believe it's time to consider updating the design of the main page. I'm not certain when the current style was implemented, but it seems to date back to 2006 or even earlier. Nowadays, there are numerous modern and colorful box templates available that could give the page a more contemporary look. What are your thoughts on starting this initiative? After all, the main page represents our entire community. I understand that changing a familiar style can be challenging for many users, but it's part of the natural cycle of updates.<br />
<br />
Best regards, [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 02:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: Ain't broke, don't fix it. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 03:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{+1}} It still looks good on Desktop and even on my phone, in Monobook and Minerva. Everything is in one column and the content is very readable.<span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 17:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Yea, the main page is good enough <small><sup>(there could be some changes however)</sup></small> [[User:Mer764Wiki|<span style="color: darkred">mer764</span>''KCTV5'']] (He/Him | [[User Talk: Mer764Wiki|'''t''']] • [[Special:Contributions/Mer764Wiki|'''c''']]) 04:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::This contradicts the well-established community consensus of “[[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)|ain’t broke, let’s break it and pretend we might fix it later]]”. [[Special:Contributions/216.147.126.60|216.147.126.60]] ([[User talk:216.147.126.60|talk]]) 20:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Fair, true, and appropriate.<br />
::I agree. [[User:ProofCreature|ProofCreature]] ([[User talk:ProofCreature|talk]]) 18:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Agree. The main page as it is is beautiful. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: You may want to review [[Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Redesign the Main Page]]. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 03:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Wikipedians don't like change (see above), so it's not going to happen without a ''lot'' of work, but I do agree that it's time for a redesign. Since the [[Wikipedia:Main Page design|last major attempts a decade ago]], responsive design technology has advanced enormously, a [[:mw:Codex|new design system]] has been rolled out across Mediawiki, and we got a [[Wikipedia:Vector 2022|new default skin]]. All of this makes the main page look ''particularly'' dated and out of place in 2024. Ideally, we'd proceed by asking [[:mw:Design|Wikimedia's design team]] to lend us their expertise and create something new – subject to community-agreed goals and constraints but ''not'' a crude yes/no vote on using it (which would inevitably fall afoul of the "change is bad" phenomenon). &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 07:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|Riad Salih}} You could probably get consensus for the general idea that the MP should be changed, but the consensus would break down over what specifically to change it to, as everyone has their own idea about that. As noted, this is a constantly made proposal. The best chance of success would probably be to propose incremental changes, one at a time- a wholesale redesign would never gain consensus. Even a small change would take much work to convince others to support and implement. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 08:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::<small>"We don't like change" says the group of people who made over [[Special:Diff/1200000000|one billion two hundred million]] [[WP:Editcountitis|changes]] to a single website. :-) —[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 04:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</small><br />
:::<small>Change for the sake of change!</small><br>People can contribute and don't wish for anything they don't change to not change. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 13:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:One idea that might get approval is moving to a single column. The current layout was well designed when pages used the whole screen, but there are very few words on each line now that we have two thin columns shoehorned into a narrow stripe down the middle of the screen with an acre of empty white space either side. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 10:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:: The white space is probably from the skin you are using. It looks fine in legacy vector. Easier to change the skin to something that you like rather than change the main page for everyone [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 01:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::From a purely selfish viewpoint (which is allowed, as this is an aesthetic matter), I want the main page to remain unchanged. I use Vector 2010, and everything looks just fine to me. However, the vast majority of readers don't have the luxury of setting that preference, and are stuck with wide blank sidebars. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 09:51, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I use the full width view of new Vector, but when checking it on the narrow width, it looks fine to me. A little narrow perhaps, but not nearly constrained enough IMO to obviate the advantages of a two-column view. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 08:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::VECTOR2022 should just be reversed. [[User:WikiOriginal-9|<span style="color: blue">'''''~WikiOriginal-9~'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:WikiOriginal-9|<span style="color: blue">'''talk'''</span>]]) 18:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:As Joe Roe said, Wikipedians are usually a little less open to change than a cube of iron. But do you have any specific ideas? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 13:17, 14 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hi @[[User:331dot|331dot]] @[[User:Anomie|Anomie]] @[[User:Certes|Certes]] @[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] @[[User:Joe Roe|Joe Roe]] @[[User:Mir Novov|Mir Novov]] @[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] @[[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] @<br />
::What do you think, for example, of the design of the main page of the [[:es:Wikipedia:Portada|Spanish]] Wikipedia? Or the [[:pt:|Portuguese]] version or [[:tr:|Turkish]]?<br />
::Regards [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 10:39, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I kind of like the Spanish version, but Vector 2022 forces the text to wrap in a weird way because it's so narrow. The Turkish version is pretty similar to en.wiki's, and wouldn't be much of an improvement. I also looked at [[:zh:Wikipedia:首页|the Chinese MP]] (fine, but too white) the [[:fr:Wikipédia:Accueil_principal|French one]] (I quite like it, actually), and [[:sk:Hlavná_stránka|and what I believe is the Slovakian one]], which I also quite like. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::@[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] Yes, I do agree with that, especially the Slovakian one. However, you know we still need ideas from other contributors, which can be challenging. Nevertheless, I will make an effort to advocate the idea of changing the main page design. [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 14:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::With all due respect, the gradients in the Slovakian one make it look very dated, like an early-2000s PowerPoint template. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 15:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I agree that the Slovakian one is too dated. I don't see any problems with the Spanish version under vanilla V22. Maybe swap POTD with On this day for slightly longer line lengths for the latter, make Other projects full-width (and maybe unbox it), and of course adapt ITN to our format, but I don't think the Spanish version needs any more changes. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:25, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I would concur that it's a good idea. IMO, some of the other Wikipedias have Main Pages that put enWP's one to shame. But as others have stated, good luck finding something that everyone can agree on. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 08:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Is there something particular you feel is a problem with the current design? – [[User:Teratix|Tera]]'''[[User talk:Teratix|tix]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Teratix|₵]] 09:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think that it’s probably best to make changes one by one, so that consensus would be more likely. Like one change per discussion. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 16:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Redesign it, but in a way that removes ITN and DYK. Both are massive investments for very little return, and much of the content they display is low quality. [[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color: darkgreen">''Thebiguglyalien''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color: sienna">talk</span>]])</small> 00:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Fucking excuse me? How the heck are the articles that we've vetted low quality? ITN gives us some global perspective and is one way readers could keep themselves up to date in current events. DYK makes everything a bit more fun for everyone and trivia is fun. Both highlight our utility as an online encyclopedia and good work on our behalf. Removing it would make no sense at all. It has worked, it is working, and it returns. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::{{reply|Aaron Liu}} The problem with opening remarks such as {{tq|Fucking excuse me?}} is rather that they invite a retort along the lines of, yes, well, "fucking excuse ''you''".{{pb}}Regarding the gist—{{tq|How the heck are the articles that we've vetted low quality}}—I think what {{u|Thebiguglyalien}} might be getting at is that simply undergoing a vetting process is insufficient; it is the quality of the vetting that is important, and so by extension, the quality of those doing the vetting. If, for example, ITN and DYN undergo a lightweight review which is perhaps keener on filling slots and reducing backlogs than ensuring the integrity of the main page, then it would be unsurprising, in some eyes, if these processes came under extra scrutiny, ''hein''. Some might also argue that trivia—however much "fun" it is—[[WP:INDISCRIMINATE|is incompatable]] with an encyclopedia that aspires, where possible, to serious scholarship. HTH! [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:blue">——Serial</span>]] 16:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC) <br />
::::Thanks for the detailed explanation, though I don't think the vetting that we do is low-quality. At least at ITN we do a pretty big referencing pass.<br>I also wonder what you mean by "hein". A dictionary search shows that it is 1. surprisingly not German 2. Dutch for death 3. French and Portuguese for "huh?". Is that last one what you meant? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 17:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::{{reply|Aaron Liu}}, indeed, I know no German or Dutch! But yes, a "huh" because I wasn't speaking for myself on the quality of the vetting, merely that it's a view (among others, of course, as you point out.) Cheers, [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:blue">——Serial</span>]] 17:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cremastra/MP]] looks fine to me. What do you think of the changes here? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 01:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks for the work, but unfortunately I don't like it very much:<br />
::# I don't know any good ways to fix this, but flushing the Welcome banner's text to the left leaves a lot of blank space in the rest of the box, making it feel weird.<br />
::# We already have a search box; we don't need another one.<br />
::# The third column has line lengths that are way too short in the limited width. That makes the excessive space to the right of the descriptions all the more jarring. And that is in my version of V22 enhanced with [[m:User:Aaron Liu/global.css|my private styles]]. Under the normal limited width all the columns have line lengths that are too short and the sister projects' descriptions run off the page.<br />
::# Something feels wrong about the concept of giving that much prominence to our sister projects. Wikipedia readers are hardly gonna go there and this introduces a lot of colorful icons that clutter up your attention. Previously it'd only take attention when you scroll/look down and want to dedicate attention to it.<br />
::# Lots of useless blank space under the third column.<br />
::# Probably a bug, but {{tq|Other areas of Wikipedia}} appears twice.<br />
:: [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 03:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Cremastra/MP]]: using Galobtter's design for the main portion. I think a large prominent search box on the main page is a good idea, though, as opposed to a redundancy. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 16:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::That does look much better! Combining the search box with the first box seems alright, though maybe I'd use the tagline "Search free knowledge". I'd also recommend making the globe logo stick to the bottom of its box, replacing the whitespace between the first two boxes with a horizontal rule, and maybe put the occasional banner before that rule with a white background. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 18:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I'm not sure about the search box, but I like the top banner otherwise, especially the logo in the bottom left. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 01:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I don't think WPAds should be isolated. Maybe it could replace the search box.{{pb}}Also, any ideas for how to eradicate that awkward gap below the image for the first box? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:20, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_189#Proposal_to_change_portal_links_on_the_Main_Page|There has been consensus]] to remove portal links, so the "Look through content portals" part should be omitted. [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 09:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I think the portal links should be omitted, especially since previous consensus is to do so. Also, I don't think that the Wikipedia Ad should be present, and I'm not sure about how the logo is presented. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::@[[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] Oh, I just put in the ad for fun. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Oh, ok. Still, the portal links need to go, and I'm not sure why we only display 1/4 of the globe logo. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I don't understand what you mean about the globe logo. The logo is visible on all pages. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I mean the corner of the globe that you placed next to "Welcome to Wikipedia!" [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 21:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yeah, that's common across Wikipedias, e.g., see [[:fr:]]. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 21:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::It looks cool [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If we modernize it, I suggest we make it [[:es:|like eswiki's]] (which happens to be adapted from [[:ru:|ruwiki's]]). It's OOUI, modernized and is in a familiar layout, though I might make the "other projects" part full-width. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 02:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Honestly I quite like eswiki's, but I would only change the style, and leave how ITN and etc are formatted as is. But, strongly support changing the "Welcome to Wikipedia" header [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I like the eswik's too, clean and simple [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 11:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I like it too [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::eswiki looks really good [[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 13:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think people will support a new main page design as soon as they're shown a new main page design that they like. I would encourage people who are so inclined to create and share mockups of new main page designs. Eventually someone will make something that enough people like. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::BTW my 2c: make the main page, en.wikipedia.org, look much more like [http://www.wikipedia.org www.wikipedia.org]: a minimalist interface, with a prominent search bar, to which I'd add prominent display of TFA and FP. Like maybe FP centered at the top, search bar below that, and TFA below that. But I'm no web designer though so I'm not sure exactly how that should all look. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:This, but for WikiProjects, which are largely bland and uninviting. This is something I've felt for a long time, but have just now worked up the courage to say... so be nice. heh. (but isn't it obvious?) [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 07:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::What do you mean by a wikiproject redesign? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Too complicated to go into here. Probably best for discussion at the WikiProject Council. [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 19:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Good luck. This is going to be harder than Vector 2022. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] I will quote you :"''[[Wikipedia:IAR|Ignore all rules]] and be the change that you want to see''" so Idecided to take the initiative to make the first step. [[User:Riad Salih|Riad Salih]] ([[User talk:Riad Salih|talk]]) 00:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::And what would that be? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 00:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
Is it possible to have, say, the current main page visible to users with the Vector legacy skin, but a main page similar to [http://es.wikipedia.org eswiki]'s for Vector 2022 users? This way we could keep up the "modern" look for Vector 2022, but keep the "legacy" style for Vector legacy. I just don't know if this is technologically feasible. [[User talk:Relativity|<b style="border-radius:3em;padding:6px;background:#e82c52;color:white;"> Relativity </b>]]<span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"></span> 03:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:The current main page has no problems to view in Vector 2022. That said, it should be possible with CSS selectors. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 03:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''I am dubious''' Why? No clear argument for why this would be desirable. Can we be sure it would not lower general accessibility depending on the device being used to access the site? I am not adamantly opposed to sprucing things up a bit. But the oft quoted adage "if it aint broke, don't fix it," definitely comes to mind. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 04:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I think where previous proposals have failed before is in trying to do many changes at the same time (e.g. changing the emphasis of different parts of the main page while also restyling it). Anyways I have a modest proposal, under the principal that [[less is more]] and that the boxes around everything is the most dated part of the main page, at [[User:Galobtter/sandbox/Main page]]. It could do more work from someone who actually knows how to design (I like ptwiki's main page header a lot and that could be incorporated), but all I did was basically remove unnecessary (imo) styling. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 06:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Hey, I like that! [[User:Zanahary|Zanahary]] ([[User talk:Zanahary|talk]]) 06:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like that! It's simpler but clearer. Although something seems a little off with the header box, the lack of border makes it feel poorly-defined to me. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 13:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like it, but I think the margins around each section need to be a little more generous if there are no borders. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 15:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I also like this. While we're at it, maybe align DYK with On this day [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:26, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::That's done manually by admins each day since aligning depends on how much content is in each of the sections. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 23:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Can't we add padding to the bottom of TFA, like ptwiki seems to do? Also the manual alignment doesn't seem to be working for me [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 23:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I like a lot of that, but (at least on Desktop on MonoBook) the colored section headers only seem to have a thin border on the bottom and nothing on the other 3 sides. Much better than the es.wiki one linked above, which is visually clean but seems to lack any sort of flavor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, Courier New">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup><span style="font-family:Papyrus"><small>''[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]''</small></span></sup> 16:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think the border's supposed to be like the heading's border.<br>I believe that whatever we think about the rest of it, we should adopt the first box of the eswiki/ruwiki main page. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::{{tq|colored section headers only seem to have a thin border on the bottom and nothing on the other 3 sides}} is intentional - I wanted to have a simple header style rather than having an unnecessary box around the headers. Yeah, I liked ptwiki's a lot more than eswiki's, which is probably technically the "best" in terms of modernization but is too bland. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 23:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:My proposal would be to change the boxes to a very light gray and then remove the border. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 18:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] I added 1px of margin, which was missing since I removed the 1px border. It looks ok to me now, although you might be right that more margin is needed. @[[User:Cremastra]] I stole the box shadow from [[:pt:Wikipédia:Página principal|ptwiki]] - what do you think now?<br />
*:I want to avoid doing more with this, since I think that's where previous proposals have failed - people want some of the changes but not others so it ends up a whole mess. And since at least some people seem to like this, I might try to put it up for RfC soon, but want to make sure there aren't small tweaks needed to what I've done. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|talk]]) 00:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I'd support it at the RfC stage, but unfortunately I doubt it would pass. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 00:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Another idea would be to use light gray rounded rectangles, because rounded rectangles are a very common part of modern web design. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 13:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Yes they're common but Wikipedia and [[mw:Codex]], our design language, never use them. That would be completely alien to the rest of the encyclopedia. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::I have a visceral dislike for rounded rectangles, possibly because they are now so prevalent. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
* Probably, yes it is time, however the problem is not to change the design, it is how to herd the cats without them canabalizing themselves. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 21:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What is that graphic metaphor supposed to mean? [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::When you try to get a lot of people to make a decision together, they often spend more time attacking each other than they do collectively moving in any productive direction, if I understood the metaphor correctly. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 23:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What's needed is a brainstorming RfC process like is currently being done for RfA. This gives an opportunity for a variety of ideas to be suggested and we can then see what sticks. For example, I'm most interested in structural change -- amending the section order and content so that the featured picture and ITN swap places so that ITN can expand coverage of its recent death entries. Issues like this can't be resolved by the editors who maintain the individual sections and so an overall mainpage forum is needed. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 09:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I don't think expanding coverage of RD entries is needed much, and the POTD often needs a dedicated row due to its image size.<br>We're currently kinda designing some layouts, so a more formal workshopping process should begin when we have more proposals. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 16:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::If you go to one column, you won't have to worry about balance. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 19:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::That would be wasting a lot of space. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:06, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::No, that would be allowing the text and images to spread across the screen instead of being cramped into tiny corners. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 20:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Why would we need all the text and images to spread across the screen? They don't gain anything from being wider. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::You don't think that a larger image and prose that isn't chopped into tiny sections that resemble the old "See spot. See Spot run. Run, Spot, run." children's books would be useful?--[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 01:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::As I don't have a childhood,{{jokes}} I'm not sure what you're talking about.<br>We do not have an overabundance of blurbs, blurb words, recent deaths or DYK hooks. Besides size limitations, there's a reason newspapers separate every single article into columns. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::::As a mobile user, I quite like the one-column design. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 18:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::The most popular view or Wikipedia is the mobile one and that's already one column. We should therefore be designing and optimising for that as the primary interface. The balance issue is absurd in that it often causes ITN admins to remove news entries -- form rather than function. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 20:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::Remind me what happened the last time a bunch of editors thought Wikipedia was optimizing for the mobile view. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::The most popular editing view for Wikipedia is desktop, not mobile. Alienating the site’s most essential users is a serious risk to take. If there had been no way to revert the Vector 2022 and recent line height changes, I would have been strongly alienated from Wiki and contributed way less. [[User:Zanahary|Zanahary]] ([[User talk:Zanahary|talk]]) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Most editors are not allowed to edit the main page and so we have a frozen format which is alienating too. What's needed is a process for making changes which allows the main page to evolve. Perhaps there could be an annual update. During the year, there would be a beta test version to trial proposals and then a confirmation and release process at the end of each annual cycle. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 09:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::I don't think we'd need to change the main page every year. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 14:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::I agree. Maybe changing every 3 years would be a better idea. [[Special:Contributions/71.239.86.150|71.239.86.150]] ([[User talk:71.239.86.150|talk]]) 21:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::::I feel like we should only change it if we should, not force a change every 3 years. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 21:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think we'd need to establish a list of a couple potential designs, and start an official RfC [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::An RfC which would unfortunately fail. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::@[[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] Not necessarily, there's quite a few people in this thread who would support that idea. That's also what the purpose of an RfC is: gather consensus, and if it is a quick-fail, so be it. What do others think? [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::At least your (and Galobtter's) small upgrade would probably pass. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 20:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::I wouldn't bet on it. :/ [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*This proposal may have met with a more favourable response if the proposer had suggested some '''concrete''' ways in which s/he would like the Main Page changed. I do have a suggestion, and that is we could include a box listing some of the new articles in Wikipedia in [[Wikipedia: Main Page]]. I do not know how many new articles are created on Wikipedia each day, but it could be dozens, and we only need to list a handful of them to make the Main Page show Wikipedia is a developing project. [[User:YTKJ|YTKJ]] ([[User talk:YTKJ|talk]]) 22:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:nominally, that'd be DYK. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 22:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::But not all the articles listed at [[DYK]] are new articles. I was hoping some recent change patrollers could enlighten me as to how many articles are likely to be created on Wikipedia each day, to know whether my suggestion is tenable. [[User:YTKJ|YTKJ]] ([[User talk:YTKJ|talk]]) 22:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::[[WP:DYKRULES|DYKRULES]] require the article to be created, expanded fivefold or made GA this week. That's basically articles which are either new or newly worth featuring. A stub which occupied the title of this week's good work for a decade shouldn't block it from DYK. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 22:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That's a great idea! I support it [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 22:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:And most of those articles are probably pretty bad. DYK fills that role, and DYK is at least slightly vetted. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:A DYK hook can be extracted from nearly every article that satisfies DYK's very basic criteria. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 22:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== There is already a different Main Page on the app ===<br />
Nobody ever seems to mention this, so I think it might just not be generally known -- seriously, go look if you don't believe me -- there is a different Main Page on the app with completely different sections that are not put together by the editing community. It has totally different stuff, some sections are missing and there are sections that only show up on the app's main page, et cetera. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 05:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Not really? The sections are Featured article, On this day, Featured image, Most visited articles, and Random article. It's not totally different by any means, and I don't think it needs consideration when we think about a main page redesign. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 11:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::So is someone going to let the people at DYK and FLC know that they were deemed unimportant and removed from the main page, then? If this is just being done unilaterally by the fiat of app developers, does it really matter what the community decides should be there? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 15:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It matters, because most people use the website. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 15:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Feedback sought for proposal to drop archival bot notice params from Template:Talk header ==<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 11:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1711278446}}<br />
Your feedback would be appreciated at [[Template talk:Talk header#Proposal to drop archiving params]]. The {{tl|Talk header}} template has no control over Talk page archiving, but it does have four params used to generate a "bot notice" in the header box which says something like: "Archiving: 90 days" (plus a tooltip with more info). It's just a string displayed in the header, which may or may not reflect what the actual archiving period is. A recent change to [[Template:Talk header]] automates the generation of this string directly from the archive config, rendering the four Talk header params unnecessary. Imho, they should be deleted from the template in order to prevent misleading bot notices in the Template header box when the given params get out of sync with the config. More details at the [[Template talk:Talk header#Proposal to drop archiving params|proposal discussion]]. Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 04:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
: <!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 10:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1711276634}} Template:Talk header is a highly visible template, so I've added {{tls|DNAU|3|weeks}} to this discussion to give it sufficient time to air. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 10:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Converting of the sandbox reset link to a button ==<br />
<br />
{{Moved discussion from|Template talk:Sandbox heading}}<br />
Hello! In case you're wondering, my suggestion is to make the "Click here to reset the sandbox" link go from this:<br />
<br />
[[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Click here to reset the sandbox.]]<br />
<br />
To this:<br />
<br />
{{Clickable button 2| Wikipedia:Sandbox|Click here to reset the sandbox. | color= blue }}<br />
<br />
Is it possible? - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 13:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I'm pretty sure that it's possible, although that question would be better asked at [[WP:VPT]]. The more interesting question, that belongs here, is whether it is desirable. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 20:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::This new design is eye catching and could be more user friendly. [[User:Ktkvtsh|Ktkvtsh]] ([[User talk:Ktkvtsh|talk]]) 04:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::How about <nowiki> <div class=plainlinks>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid=596189391 {{Clickable button 2 | '''Click here to reset the sandbox''' |link =no |color = blue}}]</div> </nowiki> which renders as <br />
:::<div class=plainlinks>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid=596189391 {{Clickable button 2 | '''Click here to reset the sandbox''' |link =no |color = blue}}]</div><br />
:::See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sandbox&oldid=1212404735] and the subsequent diff. I'm on mobile right now so no idea about how it works on PC. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 17:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I did it. - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 01:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think it is a good idea, and it seems more user-friendly. It draws more attention to itself, but I don't think that is a problem. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 19:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Agree, I think it's better for users new to the sandbox to have it emphasized that you can reset it. [[User:Pksois23|Pksois23]] ([[User talk:Pksois23|talk]]) 09:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== AI for WP guidelines/ policies ==<br />
<br />
I propose following 2 things, either one or second.<p><br />
Proposal 1: <s>Create AI for Wikipedia by taking existing model and feeding it the guidelines and policies. This will make it easier to find relevant policy. Example: I ask AI for any policy regarding 'using ''notably''' or 'words to watch' in articles, and it comes back with [[WP:EDITORIAL]]. There are already AI's like pdf readers, which you can feed on with pdf and ask questions on it.</s> <u>Make AI optimized search, for reasons that are struck(still valid) before.(Added on 18/3/24 by [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]])</u><br><br />
Proposal 2: Proposal 1 + Giving AI more AI feel, by letting it become more than better search engine, by becoming suggestion judge for small situations. Example: You editors are creative, you may add one.</p><br />
Note: AIs like [https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2023/ai-validates-quality-of-sources-on-wikipedia/ SIDE] seem to help, so will this which may be easier to build. But couldn't find discussion for one like this. The proposed proposals may be amended for better use. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br><u>'''(Note: AI is supposed to complement search)'''</u> [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 13:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Re proposal 1, ChatGPT can already answer this question decently. Presumably its training data includes pages in the Wikipedia namespace. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 16:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Barnards.tar.gz}} ChatGPT requires email for registration. But it also has that 2021 bias, and couldn't list any policy/ guideline's specific article. ChatGPT is more like proposal 2, but that makes it erroneous. It's also third party, so it may not be fed with new ones and also combine non-wikipedia related data it is fed on with its response, which will make it even more erroneous. Proposal is to simply feed an AI on Wikipedian data only and program it to link specific policy it found the info on. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Also, new data like various discussions going on ANI, Village pump, IANB etc. could be fed to AI so as to decrease discussions on already discussed topic, a user is not aware/ couldn't find about. Currently only search method is using Wikipedia search within specific category which could produce innumerable irrelevant matches, and there are numerous categories too. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] You seem to assume that we want these things and that they are good. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Cremastra}} I assumed that this shall help, or else I wouldn't have proposed it. We may not need it, but it's worth considering the potential advantages such an AI could bring, taking into account factors such as efficiency, accuracy, accessibility, and standardization all throughout Wikipedia it could bring with community's grace. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 09:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds like a solution looking for a problem. You only get familiar with current expectations by doing more editing. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 01:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Awesome Aasim}} [[WP:CHOICE]]. While practicing editing is important, AI tools can greatly enhance the editing process on Wikipedia by providing valuable assistance, improving accuracy, and streamlining search. They are designed to complement human editors, not replace them. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 10:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' for several reasons. 1) We already have a search capability, as well as numerous other features like lists, disambiguation pages and redirect shortcuts to help guide users to find what they're looking for. 2) The risks of AI misinterpreting, hallucinating, or otherwise giving users inaccurate information about policy is non-trivial. 3) Because our policies are wiki articles themselves, they too are constantly evolving; without constantly updated training, the AI would forever be operating from an outdated understanding of what our policies actually are. 4) This is not really within the purview of a single project to pursue nor is it likely to gain broad consensus across a wide variety of projects and languages necessary to make it worth the effort and cost. The scenario you're describing is better suited as part of the MediaWiki interface. 5) I suspect there are also non-trivial concerns about license compatibility as well as ensuring an open-source software/tools stack for this. 6) Where is this model going to be hosted? Who is paying for the compute time? The foundation? Some foundation-adjacent entity? Donations? A private research institution? There are too many unanswered questions and this proposal addresses none of them in a way that shows sufficient time and thought was put into making this a realistic suggestion. AI is not a "magic bullet" solution to problems that you haven't validated actually exist; nor that it is a product fit for what this community actually wants. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 04:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{green|The risks of AI misinterpreting, hallucinating, or otherwise giving users inaccurate information about policy is non-trivial.}} Is this referring to an AI generating freeform text, or referring a user to a certain page? I think that this program should probably be restricted to answering in links. I don't see a reason to believe the AI would consistently get that much wrong, or get it wrong more than a user. {{green| AI is not a "magic bullet" solution to problems that you haven't validated actually exist;}} Beyond a shadow of a doubt, people have trouble searching for policies and boards. Half the time I use Google Search. Overall, there seems to be unharnessed potential, which could make newbies stick around or make learning and navigating between policies, past and present, easier. - [[User:Mebigrouxboy|Mebigrouxboy]] ([[User talk:Mebigrouxboy|talk]]) 04:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Swatjester}} 1) The stance is like 'We have candles, why need bulb?" The very reason I proposed this is that it is really difficult for a non-experienced user (even a mid-experienced user like me having 3000+ edits) to find relevant policy, and sometimes not sure if there exists any for it even with the legacy tools. To be clear, there are numerous similar policy pages, and it is difficult to find out where the exact guideline is located and it takes lot of time if not hours finding one. Also even, forums avoid/ aren't sure of such questions as they themselves find it hard to locate sometime (not sure).<br><br />
*:2) As of now, i go with what Mebigrouxboy says.<br><br />
*:3) That's the other primary reason I am proposing this. Assuming that a constantly evolving policy may make the "AI" old, seems like saying editors have super power of going though entire policy updates within less time AI is updated. AI may help editors know what updates are in guidelines.<br><br />
*:4) This is just a tool. I may be wrong, but it is not even a major update like enforcing new vector design on IP editors/ readers. Just a sidebar for easy searching, and policy updates will do it.<br><br />
*:5) Wikipedia itself would not have got the success, if it was not launched due to such considerations. Solving the problems is necessary to establish anything.<br><br />
*:6) I am not considering myself eligible to answer questions related to financial side, as it dependent on what the community and foundation decides and how this proposal evolves. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 10:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::If we're going to use that analogy, your suggestion is like switching from candles to incandescent bulbs, without having addressed why the lighting difference matters, what type of lamp we're going to use, whether the power grid can support it, and who's going to pay for the electric bill. I stand by all of my points -- your idea is incomplete, premature, and lacking sufficient detail or information to be executed on even if there was consensus that it was desirable. You can't simply handwave away critical considerations like "who's going to pay for this" and "is this compatible with our open-licenses and our mission" as trivialities that we'll figure out later. That kind of techbro fastspeak won't fly here. We are the 7th most popular website in the world; even small changes here can have drastic impacts on millions of people. The burden is on you to show that you've actually given the serious consideration and planning due for a change that would affect people in that magnitude. Until then, you don't have a proposal; you have a fantasy. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 15:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Swatjester}} I presented my ideas here (on proposal) as conjectures, indicating that they are open to improvement and further development. This allows for collaboration and the exchange of ideas among editors. {{xt|The proposed proposals may be amended for better use.}} Also I believe that just because I did not elaborate every problem we may face with this, doesn't make it useless, and it could further be developed. However, I assume your point to make sense, and would like to further detail my proposals. And yes, we are one of the most visited website, so we should not be stagnant with the influx of improvement we are capable of. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*An AI that can instantly forward you to the correct venue for a dispute, find help pages for any question, or search the archives of boards, and other capabilities mentioned above would be a massive benefit to editor QoL. A proof of concept might be possible by creating a custom GPT on [[ChatGPT#GPT Store|the ChatGPT store]]. - [[User:Mebigrouxboy|Mebigrouxboy]] ([[User talk:Mebigrouxboy|talk]]) 04:24, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I agree, this would be nice. Since training / fine-tuning AIs on volatile user-provided data is a hot area of research and product development at the moment, I don't think it would be a wise use of Wikipedia funds to get involved just yet. It feels like we would just be duplicating work that is being done elsewhere. At the current pace of development, I would expect that production-ready open source systems that do this are not far off. [[User:Barnards.tar.gz|Barnards.tar.gz]] ([[User talk:Barnards.tar.gz|talk]]) 11:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* The Wikimedia Foundation's Machine Learning Team [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1901/ already seem quite busy]. [[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]] ([[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]) 16:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support'''. It could really help finding policies when you forget the name or just don't know it. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nononsense101|Nononsense101]] ([[User talk:Nononsense101#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nononsense101|contribs]]) 16:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</small><br />
*This proposal is in essence about creating a better search tool. It could be a good project for a university computer science department. If you know anyone with appropriate connections, or any developers with available resources who might be interested, perhaps you can suggest it to them. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yes, AI optimized search tool is the first and foremost thing I proposed. Other things can be discussed within the community. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I think you need to first find people with appropriate experience and resources who can work on this type of project. This will allow them to engage in any discussions and thus guide them down more productive paths. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Isaacl}} Okay. Can you tell where could I search for such people who may have related experience? Thanks, [[User:ExclusiveEditor|ExclusiveEditor]] ([[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|talk]]) 17:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::Sean.hoyland gave one pointer above to a Wikimedia Foundation team that might be able to give some pointers or advice. You can also look at the foundation's pages to find other potential contacts. Think of everyone you know and if they have any related experience or connections to those who do, and if they might be receptive. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:'''Support proposal 1'''. Happy to be invited to join this discussion. By way of introduction, I am a new editor who has done some deep diving into AI as well as algorithmic and data biases. As a newcomer, I can say that navigating Wikipedia's trove of policies and guidelines can feel very daunting. I’ve read posts in the Teahouse from new editors who say they feel paralyzed due to their fear of being criticized for doing the wrong thing or making mistakes. As such, being able to get easy access to policies would help to reduce policy breaches, support retention of new editors, and help create a “psychologically safer” environment for all editors. In my experience with AI and LLMs such as ChatGPT, they are very efficient when they are dealing with well-defined inputs for a request. A set of Wikipedia policies and guidelines would be an example of well-defined inputs. Generally, when LLMs stumble into "hallucinations", it tends to be when they are tasked with open-ended topics such as “blank sheet of paper” requests where they need to create something new with no prior input other than their own information. [[User:HerBauhaus|HerBauhaus]] ([[User talk:HerBauhaus|talk]]) 13:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* <strike>'''Oppose''' Feel like this is an unnecessary way to teach policy (and it's just asking for issues). We should avoid AI in general, and instead we should be improving new user onboarding so that we don't need this solution.</strike> '''Support''' AI in a very limited form<br />
:[[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 03:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{Re|Vghfr}} Proposal 1 is AI- optimized search. Proposal 2 may better suit your oppose. Also the proposal 1 is not asking for issues as it is already evident from my and others(response above yours) experience that new wikipedians do face lot of issues when it comes to make even the slightest edits, and [[WP:CHOICE]] finally. We are not a company, but encyclopedia's community which should be not conservative in approach of helping Wikipedia's editor base growth in fears which make no sense.[[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 14:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Sorry, got trigger-happy when I saw 'AI.' I could see it working if it was used as an addition to the search. Something similar to how Bing uses Copilot to summarize search results. We would just have to be careful. [[User:Vghfr|<span style="color:teal;">vghfr</span>]] (✉ [[User_talk:Vghfr|<span style="color:pink;">Talk</span>]]) (✏ [[Special:Contributions/Vghfr|<span style="color:sky_blue;">Contribs</span>]]) 21:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Strong Support''' - I'd find it so useful to find policies and guidelines, as long as the AI is only used for that and is not involved in anything else around Wikipedia. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Absolutely not''' - The state of the art of AI does not have sufficient quality assurance to be able to operate in such an open-ended domain as Wikipedia policy and guidelines. This proposal is begging for trouble, and there is currently no time frame for when AI will reach this level of sophistication beyond a useless guess of "maybe in a few years at best". <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 14:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Rosguill}}No, I never deemed the proposal to be the way you are thinking, I myself may have opposed such proposal. I proposed for an AI optimized search for Wikipedia's policy and guidelines. There are lot of chatbots out there (including ones made on small budget) which could answer question based on web results in real time by 'searching' on internet, but the Wikipedia(AI-opt-search) work would be simpler even in term that it is just based on internal pages of just Wikipedia. In other words, right now Wikipedia's traditional search is '[[Google Search|Google]]', and I propose something like '[[perplexity.ai]]' but much less sophisticated and easy to build. Also this would complement the search and may not be major change, it is proposal 2 which may suit your oppose. Regards, [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 14:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I still think that this is a solution in search of a problem, and that it will in fact find several new problems if implemented. The same concerns of lack of reliability apply: how do we know that the chatbot will direct people to the correct p&g page given a query at runtime? What dataset of queries and responses could we possibly train it on? How will the AI know how to balance essays, guidelines, and policies, or how to recognize an essay that nevertheless has broad buy-in from the community and is a guideline in all but name? How would the AI know how to adapt to IAR, to contradictory essays and guidelines, or to the fact more broadly that our documentation is descriptive rather than prescriptive of Wikipedia practices? There is no publicly-available dataset that we could train an AI off of that would even begin to address these use cases. I am raising these concerns as someone with several years of professional experience in AI research. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 15:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::{{Re|Rosguill}} Your have very valid points of concern. I think that this could be implemented step by step, whenever the community and foundation feel ready. There are lot of proposals in this discussion itself: First two are the proposals I presented, then a new one is too just let the already existing search engine get AI optimized, other is to make 'policychecker' ({{xt|spellchecker but for WP policy... which}}(idea){{xt| is at least worth exploring}}), then we have something like Wikipedia Library type, difference that it provides access to some third party model like ChatGPT fed with p&g which could be used in a while, etc. I have even posted an example of basic AI which we could think of in first step. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* I have put some thought into this and I do think there could be merit for a tool to help new editors see their revision draft is violating a WP policy prior to submission. That isn't necessarily a "WP Policy chatbot" but probably something more akin to a spellchecker but for WP policy. If it could cause a new editor to fix their bad edit before another editor had to deal with it, it could make things better. That said, the model is only a small part of what would be needed to make this work, a bigger aspect would that the UI/UX that makes it seemless for a newer user while not annoying experienced editors (maybe make it opt in?). [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 15:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|CAlbon (WMF)}} Maybe we could add that in 'beta features'. Proposal 2 or related would surely be more complex idea than 1, but it will increase the overall efficiency and quality of articles produced/ or edits. However 'AI' is the "popular" term so I used it, but the real solution would be to somehow reduce the pressure of getting 'edit wrong due to policy/ guideline' fear from new editors, because those who have such worries are the ones who are most dedicated. And it may surely ease the navigation process like gps did. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Yeah, I do think helping new editors overcome the hurdle of their (and everyone's) first edits often being pretty rough. Structured Tasks can help with this, but the "policychecker" idea has merit, at least as an exploration. [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 16:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::@[[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]]: In editing energy and telecommunications articles, I've noticed that several key editors who made significant contributions have left Wikipedia, likely due to criticisms or disputes. These criticisms, not always expressed in a civil tone, have highlighted issues in their newly created articles or edits such as subjective language, the inclusion of original ideas, and potential plagiarism. Implementing a "policy checker" for articles before they "go live" could greatly reduce such friction, helping to retain passionate contributors. [[User:HerBauhaus|HerBauhaus]] ([[User talk:HerBauhaus|talk]]) 14:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::This is a really good insight. Thanks for sharing the example. [[User:CAlbon (WMF)|CAlbon (WMF)]] ([[User talk:CAlbon (WMF)|talk]]) 16:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* '''Unnecessary''' – It'd be a big hassle for Wikipedia to implement such a proposal and, at least to me, seems like a pretty unnecessary thing to do, since there already are such third-party tools. If anyone wants to use them, they should feel free to do so (and accept responsibility for any error), like with any tool. '''''I don't oppose the idea''''' though, I just see it as another solution to a problem that already has (or is close to having) a solution. [[User:Gedditor|Gedditor]] ([[User talk:Gedditor|talk]]) 16:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Gedditor}}Specifically proposed for new editors (and in extension can be used by others). Some newbies don't even know Wikimedia projects other than Wikipedia exist, being aware of third party tools seems improbable. I don't think hassle can be the reason to deny working on (discussion), which may result in at least a minor change which may make it a process easier (and yet efficient) to edit for Wikipedians. Also I don't think any 'third party tool' or any 'tool' is currently better than Wikipedia's own "search engine" which is not very effective, I very first proposed, and even if any exists, they mostly are highly unreliable. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 16:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I don't think that things shouldn't be done because they are hard to do. I just personally think that it's not worth it. I'd say '''I'm neutral on this issue'''. If such a feature is implemented, good. If not, that's fine too. Just wanted to add my opinion here :) [[User:Gedditor|Gedditor]] ([[User talk:Gedditor|talk]]) 16:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' – Don't think this should be an official tool. I support any unofficial ones that people want to build. I've [https://chat.openai.com/g/g-f9fjPK25v-wiki-wizard personally built] a GPT with access to all Wikipedia namespace articles concatenated into a single file. Go ahead and ask it about Wikipedia rules and guidelines and maybe it will actually give an accurate answer. – [[User:Kjerish|Kjerish]] ([[User talk:Kjerish|talk]]) 04:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Kjerish}} Okay, great! But it requires ChatGPT plus. Maybe somewhat like [[Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library|Wikipedia library]], WM could give us any one such model's access. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 13:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Agreed! [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - First and foremost, I understand and respect your vision to expand Wikipedia but I fear that AI (such as ChatGPT) is not to the level that it should be. I understand that AI has been around for quite a long time, but only recently has it been ignited to the public and is used through numerous high-end companies (such as Google, Microsoft, Apple, you name it). I oppose this because Wikipedia is about humans checking the article. And yes, it would make it go faster, but it will make mistakes and those mistakes could time consuming for an individual (or a community) to resolve them. I think we should pilot it to a few selective articles rather than making it public to the entire Wikipedia articles. I think it's a great idea, no doubt, but we should be cautious when it comes to making it public for all without really piloting it. I have a couple more opinions on it, feel free to reach out if you want to. [[User:JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:red">Jack Reynolds</b>]] ([[User talk:JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:blue">talk to me</b>]] &#124; [[Special:Emailuser/JackReynoldsADogOwner|<b style="color:grey">email me</b>]]) 15:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:First of all I appreciate your civil tone. I understand the lack of confidence on currently available AI platforms, and that implementing it site wide may bring issues, increasing the overall time to solve. But for that you said {{xt|Wikipedia is about humans checking the article}}, I would also point that we have bots, which do not directly edit and cross check the articles (as a dystopian editor-less Wikipedia may have, and I oppose this), the [[Wikipedia:Bots|bots]] have proven to be very effective in side tasks other than automating repetitive tasks. Bots like [[User:ClueBot NG|ClueBot NG]] are active examples. AI has wide applications, and I think that there are lot of applications to it on WP too, to some I oppose just like you, but others, like AI optimized simple search, or beta tested policy chatbots are some I have eyes on, as they rather than replacing existing resources, would only complement them. And as they say it, something is better than nothing (being added), especially when it is promising to look at. I would also like to know 'more opinions' you mentioned to have. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 15:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Comment''': For those who oppose major change related to AI, the ai need not take a very inclusive part in Wikipedia's working for now, but a simple AI search like this would really ease the problem:<br />
<code> User: I am editing person's article, but she has lot of names, I want to write all of them, what I do?<ref>Note the informal language I used here.</ref><br><br />
&nbsp;WP AI: I found the following results:<br><br />
&nbsp;1.'''[[MOS:NAME]]''': The guidelines talks about various cases in which the subject has ''Anachronistic names, Changed names, Multiple changed names, Pseudonyms and stage names, Hypocorisms, Nicknames'' etc. .....<br />
</code><br />
<br><br><br />
or something I have seen many editors not knowing about:<br><br />
<code><br />
Editor: I added name of subject in Hindi in information box at right side, but somebody removed it and warned me. Why?<ref>Note that the new editor does not know about script and rather says 'Hindi', a language. The editor need not be expert in linguistic field, but this initial gf edits should not discourage them from editing constructively in future</ref><br><br />
WP AI: I found the following guideline regarding the usage of Indic script (which the Hindi language is predominantly written in) in infobox:<br><br />
&nbsp;'''[[WP:INDICSCRIPT]]''': The guidelines says that per a consensus at [[Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_64#RfC_on_Indicscript_in_infoboxes|2017 request for comment]], the use of Indic sript in India related articles is to be avoided for multiples reasons listed below:<br />
<br>1).....<br>2)......<br>3)......<br> This could be the possible reason that your edit was removed. For more information, you may ask the editor who reverted your edit for a response.<br />
</code><br />
{{reflist}}<br />
*'''Oppose:''' I anticipate little benefit to the Wikipedia project. [[User:Clarinetguy097|Clarinetguy097]] ([[User talk:Clarinetguy097|talk]]) 17:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Clarinetguy097}} And how do you? [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 17:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Wrong page? This seems like a request for software rather than something that needs consensus. Any volunteer may create a user script or Toolforge tool that uses AI. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 21:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{Re|Novem Linguae}} User scripts are add-ons that are commonly used by experienced users, while new editors are often unaware of them. Even mid-level editors may naturally find them uncomfortable to use. While volunteer-created scripts or tools are valuable, official integration ensures widespread accessibility and consistency across the platform. So I propose a direct integration of this feature in Wikipedia's interface, and so I started the discussion here. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span><span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 12:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Conditional Support'''. Using ChatGPT to augment the wikipedia search engine isn't a good idea. It hasn't been tested enough, isn't built for searching, and doesn't like certain queries (medical, legal, political, and anything containing the phrase "root access"). If Wikimedia wants to build its own AI to help with searching, however, then I do support this. [[User:DarklitShadow|DarklitShadow]] ([[User talk:DarklitShadow|talk]]) 21:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Reworking Sandbox Heading ==<br />
<br />
Hello! I am requesting that {{tl|sandbox heading}} be changed to this:<br />
{{collapse top|Proposed sandbox heading text}}<br />
{{code|<center><big>'''Click on the "Edit this page" link above to experiment!'''</big></center><center><big>'''Please leave this heading alone'''</big></center><br />
Welcome to the sandbox! Anybody can edit this page and it is automatically cleared regularly (anything you write will not remain indefinitely).<br />
You can either [[Special:EditPage/{{FULLPAGENAME}}|edit]] the source code ("'''[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit}} {{int:visualeditor-ca-editsource}}]'''" tab above) or use [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor|VisualEditor]] ("'''[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|veaction=edit}} {{int:skin-view-edit}}]'''" tab above). Click the "'''{{int:publishchanges}}'''" button when finished. You can click "'''{{int:showpreview}}'''" to see a preview of your edits, or "'''{{int:showdiff}}'''" to see what you have changed.<br />
this page is cleared regularly, feel free to try your editing skills below.<br />
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{{Clickable button 2|Click here to reset the sandbox.|class=mw-ui-progressive|url={{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&preload=Template:Sandbox+reset&summary=Reset+sandbox&oldid={{#switch:{{FULLPAGENAME}}<br />
|Draft:Sandbox=1153186071<br />
|Wikipedia:Sandbox=596189391<br />
|User:Sandbox=1151999420<br />
|User talk:Sandbox=1152088553<br />
|Wikipedia talk:Sandbox=1152694269<br />
}}}}}}<br />
If you are logged in, you can access your personal sandbox: "'''[{{fullurl:Special:Mypage/sandbox|action=edit&preload=Template:User_sandbox/preload}} {{int:sandboxlink-portlet-label}}]'''".<br />
[[Wikipedia:Misuse of the sandbox|'''DO NOT''' place promotional, copyrighted, offensive, or libelous content]] in sandboxes.{{small|''For more info, see [[Help:My sandbox]]. New? See the [[Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia|contributing to Wikipedia]] page or [[Help:Introduction|our tutorial]]. Questions? Try [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|the Teahouse]]!''<br />
[[:Category:Wikipedia Editing Aids]]}}}}<br />
{{collapse bottom}}<br />
Should this change be made? - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 18:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, it should be changed to this version. [[Special:Contributions/23.245.44.64|23.245.44.64]] ([[User talk:23.245.44.64|talk]]) 18:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. This makes the reset option more visible. It might make people pay less attention to the heading, but I doubt it. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 16:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Noting that I've left an invitation to this discussion at [[Template talk:Sandbox heading]]. All the best. <span style="color:#595959">&zwj;—&zwj;</span>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">a&nbsp;smart kitten</span>]]<sub style="color:#595959">[<nowiki/>[[User talk:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">meow</span>]]]</sub> 19:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==Proposed formatting changes to the universal editnotice==<br />
[[File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg|25px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at [[:MediaWiki talk:Editpage-head-copy-warn#New design|MediaWiki talk:Editpage-head-copy-warn §&nbsp;New design]]. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 17:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<!-- [[Template:Please see]] --><br />
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== Advertising sister projects ==<br />
<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 19:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1713553276}}<br />
{{rfc|prop|proj|rfcid=E3AC02F}}<br />
Should Wikipedia run a period of banners (one or multiple weeks) encouraging readers to use and edit sister projects? ([[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Special_period_advertising_sister_projects|previous discussion]])<br />
*[[User:Cremastra/sandbox2|See examples here]].<br />
Please note that this is a discussion regarding whether Wikipedia should do this in the broad sense; detailed arguments like "I don't like the suggested banners" or "but we shouldn't promote [this project I don't like]" should be saved for later discussion. Please respond to the idea in the RfC statement.<br />
Thank-you, [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:<small>Notifying participants in previous discussion: {{ping|Aaron Liu|Harvici|Commander Keane|WhatamIdoing|Theklan| The Wordsmith|vghfr}}</small><br />
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:{{block indent|em=1.6|1=<small>Notified: [[meta:Wikimedia Forum]]. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</small>}}<!-- Template:Notified --><br />
===Survey (advertising sister projects)===<br />
*'''Yes''' as proposer. As I wrote previously:<br />
:''Sister Wikimedia projects have a lot to offer readers, and as one of the most viewed sites on the internet (globally!) we should help introduce readers to these resources. As you know, other Wikimedia projects include a dictionary/thesaurus which includes translations; a travel guide; a library of digitized public domain texts that anyone can download or distribute; a travel guide; a media repository; and many others. The sister project links are currently buried far down on the Main Page, and are especially distant for mobile viewers who make up an increasing share of our readership. Why would we not want to help readers discover some of the useful resources our sister projects have to offer?''<br />
:[[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 18:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. Several of the 'sister projects' are worse than useless. At least one is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia. We should not be encouraging them. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 19:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{ping| AndyTheGrump }} They're Wiki'''m'''edia, not Wikipedia. This is the exact Wikipedia-is-the-best-and-most-important-project conceit I've been talking about. And I wonder which project you object to— Wikidata doesn't follow our notability guidelines, Wiktionary ''clearly'' violates [[WP:NOTDIC]], Wikisource has no citations at all (!) Wikifunctions is just a bunch of code or something, Wikivoyage goes against [[WP:V]] and, to a degree, [[WP:NPOV]]… I could go on. Judging other projects by Wikipedian standards in nothing less than absurd. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth. I am under no illusion that Wikipedia is 'the best' anything. It is however, the only online encyclopaedia that has any significant readership (thanks in no small part to Google), and is thus worthy of critical scrutiny. And I'm not judging the other projects by 'Wikipedian' standards, I'm judging them by the standards of someone who considers Wikipedia structurally flawed, even if its objectives are worthy in the abstract. The projects I refer to are in my opinion worse, in several ways, but mostly of little significance. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 19:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::[[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]], could you please expand on how the projects are {{tq|worse}} and the project that {{tq|is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia}}?<span id="Frostly:1710623668920:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 21:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
*:{{tqq|At least one is run in a manner entirely contrary to the stated objectives of Wikipedia.}} Which project is it?<br />
*:You first say that we should not encourage our sister Wikimedia projects because they go against Wiki'''p'''edia objectives, and then you say that you aren't judging them by Wikipedian standards. I don't understand. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 22:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Is it your intention to get into long-winded discussions with everyone who participates here, or just the ones you disagree with? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 23:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes, provided it is limited to a few projects'''. Some of our projects are of limited interest to the average reader ([[Wikidata]], [[Wikispecies]] and [[Wikifunctions]]) and others aren't in a state where it's worthwhile directing users to them ([[Wikinews]]). I think that such a campaign would be best served by a focused group of 3 or 4 of them that is more able to effectively direct attention their way. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 02:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Absolutely not.''' Banners steal our readers' attention. By distracting them and taking them off task, we slow down them learning what they're here to learn. Ads make people ''stupider''. We should display as few as humanly possible for as little time as possible.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S&nbsp;Marshall</b>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 02:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' for the same reason I don't like banner ads for donations or dishwashing soap. You diminish the encyclopedia by pasting ads for things that are completely unrelated to the topic they are searching. First and foremost, the READERS matter, and this diminishes the encyclopedia by putting information in the way of what they came for: verifiable facts about a topic. We aren't here to promote anything, including ourselves. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 07:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' as per above. Banner ads do not benefit the encyclopedia, which is our primary concern. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 14:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is the kind of self-centredness that is detrimental to the Wikimedia project as a whole. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 17:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::I could just as easily say that proposals like this one are detrimental to the English Wikipedia because they consume editor time that might otherwise have been spent improving articles. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 01:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::By that logic, every proposal here is detrimental because they take time away from editing articles. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::No, a proposal that seeks to improve the encyclopedia is not a detriment. This, however, is a proposal that diminishes the encyclopedia, which is why I opposed it. [[User:Lepricavark|L<small>EPRICAVARK</small>]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark#top|<small>talk</small>]]) 16:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yeah, obviously''': it's common knowledge that enwiki's love for sister projects is... lackluster at best. Thank god we're not in charge of creating new projects, because otherwise there wouldn't be any. But raising awareness for sister projects raises the probability that we'll be able to help someone find what they're looking for (like, say, a quote or a definition) next time they need something. Maybe they're looking for that information right now, and don't know where to find it! [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 16:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I don't think this is a good idea, beyond directing users to all Wikimedia sites in general. If English Wikipedia starts choosing individual sites to promote, and thus selecting ones not to promote, failure to promote a site will be seen as a negative endorsement. This may have an unduly discouraging effect on the expansion of the related communities. I am wary of putting English Wikipedia in a position where it can determine the success or failure of other Wikimedia sites. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' There are far fewer reasons to do this than not to do this; some of the reasons that I can think of off the top of my head include NPOV & not wanting to have to look into the editorial practices of other projects. [[User:JuxtaposedJacob|JuxtaposedJacob]] ([[User talk:JuxtaposedJacob|talk]]) 00:45, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:NPOV only applies to articles. If we start interpreting it that strictly, then we're going to need to delete [[:Category:Wikipedia essays|a lot of essays]]... {{smiley3}} [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. I have seen no convincing argument why and how this would benefit the encyclopedia. Also per {{U|Isaacl}} &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 11:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. The purpose of Wikipedia is to be an encyclopaedia, not to recruit users for other projects. If the Wikimedia foundation thinks they need more users elsewhere, they can do their own advertising. [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{ping|Modest Genius}} Ah, so we don't want to actually ''help'' readers, we just want them to read the encyclopedia? [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::How would showing readers advertising possibly help them? [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 12:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::See Queen of Hearts' comment below. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes'''. leeky puts it perfectly. Most readers don't know what on Earth a Wikivoyage is, when in reality, it could be exactly what they're looking for. [[User:Queen of Hearts|Queen of Hearts]] <sup>she</sup>/<sub>they</sub><sup>[[User talk:Queen of Hearts|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Queen of Hearts|stalk]]</sub> 20:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' largely per Isaac. If we do every project, we're making a lot of noise for very little benefit. If we select only some, we functionally decide which projects we endorse (and which we don't by omission). Neither is a particularly good outcome. I also think banner campaigns are over-used in general and not a good way to support sibling projects if that's the goal. It's indiscriminate and for the majority of readers completely useless given what they're here to learn about. Why show a reader a banner about wikispecies if they're here reading about the Andromeda Galaxy? I don't see the benefits outweighing the costs. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 20:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes''' per leeky. General support for the idea, without committing to doing all of them (after all, we can't say too much about the Incubator, Meta, etc.). &mdash; <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 03:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' - Advertising (especially in banner form) is annoying and intrusive, distracting and wasting of screen space. It doesn't matter how noble or [[wikt:sororal|sororal]] the entity being advertised. We already link to the sister projects in the main page (left panel and bottom) and we routinely mention relevant sister projects explicitly from articles where applicable (many articles include templates linking to specific pages on Commons, Wikivoyage, Wiktionary) and link [[wikt:inline|inline]] where appropriate, most often via images. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''No''', good points above on the value of ads and on being cautious with the power of en.wiki within the WMF ecosystem. On a pragmatic note, a general link to go look at WikiSource or WikiData or even WikiCommons is of any use. How to contribute to those is opaque at best. If these resources are promoted, it should be through specific useful ways, such as our practice of including relevant WikiSource pages in See also sections (occasionally they pop up in infoboxes too). [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 07:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Yes''', as leeky put it. Other sister projects are very well what readers may be looking for, like WikiVoyage or Commons. There should be an option to opt-out though. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 12:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' to all forms of distracting and inappropriate advertising. There will always be sound and moral reasons behind any banner campaign - I'd like us to allow various charitable banners which fund-raise to help starving children, or prevent climate change, etc. But Wikipedia was set up not to be such a platform, and so it seem highly inappropriate and immoral and incestuous that we don't allow banners which may improve or even save people's lives, but will allow banners purely to inflate the traffic flow of various WikiMedia projects. If there is an appropriate need to link to another project, that is already done within articles, such as via External links. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 14:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' per SilkTork. Besides, a lot of people, both editors and readers, are already frustrated by the endless, huge banner ads that get foisted on articles every December, grubbing for money for the WMF. We don't need to add to that. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 14:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' due to banner blindness, and due to the fact that just because a project is a sister project doesn't mean it's a good project. I just don't see the value in telling readers about other projects. BTW, I also would oppose a banner that encouraged people to edit ''this'' project. I'm generally opposed to taking up screen real estate to try and recruit readers, let the readers read in peace without distraction. BTW, the way to let readers know about sister projects they may find useful is "inline," the way we do it now, with those boxes/links/hatnotes/whatever-you-call-them that say, e.g. "full text is available at WikiSource," or "there is an entry at WikiData," or "there is media on Commons," etc. It's better to put those more-targeted notices in the place where they'll matter. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No''' as conceptually wrong. Very, very, VERY few people, even linguaphiles, are hardcore "let me sit down and read the dictionary some" types. Similarly, even people who love reading books aren't going to be enticed by "oh hey, let me go to the local library and pick some books at random" from Wikisource or Wikibooks. And yet that's precisely what these suggested banners provide: essentially a link to the front door of the library, or to a full dictionary. What is ''far'' more effective is a relevant link for a ''word'' or ''topic'' that the reader has already shown themselves interested in, hence them being at an article in the first place. So something like [[The_Red-Headed_League#External_links]] having its first EL being to Wikisource? Great. The reader is interested in the topic, here's a link to where you can read the story on Wikisource. Or disambig pages including a prominent Wiktionary link, especially for less-used words or foreign terms like [[Anabasis]]. There's an argument we should link sister projects ''when relevant'' more aggressively, sure. That might be a good way to spend time. But these banners don't have any relevance, and therefore aren't useful. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 20:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''No'''. Unnecessarily distracting and annoying. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 12:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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===General discussion (advertising sister projects)===<br />
The [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page main page] already has a large section, '''Wikipedia's sister projects'''. Why is something else needed? [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 19:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Those links are hard to find and do little. Especially for mobile readers, they are unlikely to be actually seen. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Adding 'sister project' banners is inevitably going to make other content less likely to be seen, given finite screen sizes. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 20:05, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I think there inevitably will be tradeoffs with inclusion of any type of content.<span id="Frostly:1710623776117:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::And how much space will the banners take up on mobile screens? [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It depends what the final design is. Presumably the design used for mobile will be much smaller than that for desktop. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
If banners were approved and shown, how would you determine whether they were worth the effort? [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 20:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:One could look at siteviews of projects, number of edits made, number of active users... and see if there was noticeable change. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 20:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Related discussion''': Those here concerned about excessive banner use (or, conversely, wishing we'd use banners more) may be interested in [[meta:CentralNotice/Request/UCDM_2024#c-Sdkb-20240311113000-Ciell-20240306150000|discussion]] about the appropriateness of displaying the banner for Ukraine's Cultural Diplomacy Month globally without any geographic targeting. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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During the brainstorming session for the 2021 RfA review, I suggested having regularly scheduled [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Brainstorming#c-Isaacl-2021-10-17T02:09:00.000Z-Barkeep49-2021-10-17T01:22:00.000Z|volunteer weeks]], where editors representing different initiatives could host "open house" activities to engage potential volunteers. I didn't pursue the idea, though, since there was almost no interest expressed. However if it were to occur, it would be an opportunity for editors from other projects to set up open houses to publicize their work. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Maybe rather than banners for individual projects, there could be a banner about sister projects in general linking to a page that transcluded {{temp|Wikipedia's sister projects}}, had a paragraph overview of each project, links to any welcome portals on that project, and links to any coordination or other related groups on en.wp. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Whilst I'm not necessarily opposed to focusing on other Wikimedia projects, personally I prefer a venue that is open for any initiative looking for more participation. There are a lot of areas on English Wikipedia that could either be helpful to more readers, if they knew about them, or could use more participants, if they were drawn to help out. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 22:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Create an alias for the Template namespace ==<br />
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 16:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1713628875}}<br />
{{rfc|prop|rfcid=7AC8539}}<br />
I am proposing that <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> be added as an alias to the <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> namespace per [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#New_alias_for_template_namespace|this discussion]].<br />
<br />
Note: Though previous aliases were already [[Wikipedia:Perennial_proposals#Create_shortcut_namespace_aliases_for_various_namespaces|listed on perennial proposals]], it proposed <code><nowiki>t:</nowiki></code>, which would have conflicted with some article titles, or be confused with the <code><nowiki>Talk:</nowiki></code> namespace. <code><nowiki>Tp:</nowiki></code>, on the other hand, wouldn't, and would make it way quicker to look up a template in the search bar.<br><br />
<br />
<u>Edit (during rfc): <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> was not fully supported due to it being confused with "Talk Page", however other options were proposed, like hard coding <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> being replaced by <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> in the search bar.</u> [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 15:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' "Template" is not a long word, and nobody abbreviates it as "tp" these days. This seems pointless. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I just thought it'd make it consistent with <code><nowiki>wp:</nowiki></code> for <code><nowiki>Wikipedia:</nowiki></code>, which is 10 characters, while <code><nowiki>Template:</nowiki></code> is 9 characters. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 15:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tq|Nobody abbreviates it as "tp" these days}}. Even if that is true it is not a reason for ''us'' not to do so. Wikipedia is big enough to be making fashions rather than following them. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I'd find it useful. It's less effort to type "tp:infobox person" in the search box than "template:infobox person" (which is how I usually navigate to wp: and template: pages). [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Schazjmd. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 15:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I'd absolutely love this. I've often wondered if there was some technical problem that was preventing us doing this. '''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''': Pretty nice QOL change. Per Schazjmd. [[User:ARandomName123|ARandomName123]] ([[User talk:ARandomName123|talk]])<sup><span class="tmp-color" style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 16:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*I don't think it's a good idea to create an alias (and implicitly creating more English Wikipedia jargon) just to improve the search function. We should instead improve the search capability directly. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 17:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yeah, but you don't want a casual reader to be confused as to why they ended up on a template page [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 17:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::It would be a lot easier for the casual user to stumble upon a namespace alias, which could happen anywhere they enter an URL that might trigger a browser to launch, than for them to deliberately select the search box and type there. Furthermore, if this isn't intended to be used by a broad audience, then a more targeted solution would be better. Users wanting this functionality can make use of the script to which you were pointed in the previous thread, or they can configure their OS to provide an appropriate macro expansion to shorten the number of keystrokes they use. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 18:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::For reference, the script seems to be [[User:Ahecht/Scripts/TemplateSearch]]. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* "tp" seems very easily misconstrued as "Talk Page" at a glance. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 18:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Good point. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 18:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I've been wanting this. It really is irksome to type out "Template:" I since learned today there are scripts, and of course {{tld|tld}} for talk pages, but it would be much cleaner and simpler to have a standard abbrev. and this is technically easy to implement. TP: or T: it doesn't matter they both are fine. I prefer T: -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 18:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment''': Unless I'm missing something, the {{code|TP:}} prefix was proposed in 2015, in a discussion which was closed as no consensus - [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 127#Prefix suggestion: TP: for Template:]]. All the best. <span style="color:#595959">&zwj;—&zwj;</span>[[User:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">a&nbsp;smart kitten</span>]]<sub style="color:#595959">[<nowiki/>[[User talk:A smart kitten|<span style="color:#595959">meow</span>]]]</sub> 19:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' For the reasons in [[WP:PEREN#Create shortcut namespace aliases for various namespaces]]. In particular, the Template namespace is generally not linked often enough that saving the typing of 6 characters is likely to be at all worthwhile and there's nothing available to use for the corresponding talk pages. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 20:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*The template for linking a template is called {{tl|tl}}. Shouldn't we have some consistency between this and the short-cut? Or is "tl" already used? [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] tl is ISO639 for [[Tagalog_language|tagalog]]. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 22:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tl|tl}} is short for {{tl|template link}}, so the [[el (letter)|el]] doesn't have anything to do with templates ''qua'' templates. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – While there are helpful template shortcuts, like {{t|t}} and its siblings, that can be used in discussions, and a script that can be used in the on-wiki searchbox to convert <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> to <code>Template:</code>, a namespace shortcut (<code>tp:</code>) would help in edit summaries and customised browser search boxes. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 23:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' Adding layers of obfuscation is not helpful. If I want to refer to {{tl|convert}}, writing <code>Template:Convert</code> is easy and helpful to someone reading my comment. Writing <code>Tp:Convert</code> is unnecessary jargon that saves under a second of typing at the cost of head-scratching for readers. <code>tp</code> would be "talk page" for many. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 01:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' As someone who has next to no involvement with template editing, I immediately think of 'talk page' when I see 'tp'. It would confuse many people who edit outside of the technical areas of Wikipedia. {{summoned by bot}} '''[[User:JML1148|JML1148]]''' <sup>([[User talk:JML1148|<span style="color:#58c8cc">talk</span>]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/JML1148|<span style="color:#58c8cc">contribs</span>]])</sup> 06:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Rename''' the template mainspace from "Template:" to "Plantilla:" and use "Pl:" as a shortcut [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 18:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That would be quite a big change, but I'm not against it lol [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::But this is in español ROTFL -- '''[[User:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFD700;color:#002FA7">Zand</span>]][[User talk:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFF944;color:#F50F0F">Dev</span>]]''' 13:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Yeah there's no way we'll get consensus on that one [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yea, no. Also even on eswiki that uses that namespace name this couldn't happen as Pl is ISO639 for Polish. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 09:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Soft Oppose''' I'd support hard-coding <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code>→<code>Template:</code> into the search box's autocomplete natively rather than using my script as a hack, but I agree that the widespread use of links like [[:TP:Example]] are an unnecessary layer of obfuscation/jargon. With the <code>WP</code> prefix, at least the shortcut links are ''mostly'' self explanatory, but it wouldn't be obvious to a newcomer what, for example, [[:tp:birds]] is, or why it's not an article. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 18:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:@[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] Yes, hard-coding that directly could be a great alternative. I just think that we need to find a solution for this, and maybe <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> wasn't the best as others have pointed out. I'll continue gathering some ideas and then conduct a sub-RfC to see what option would be best, as long as the consensus doesn't seem to be oppose. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 19:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''neutral''' i could go either way. I like the hard coding option of having 'template' be dropdown option in the menu. [[User:Slacker13|Slacker13]] ([[User talk:Slacker13|talk]]) 01:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – I don't think that adding the <code>t:</code> will add an another level of obfuscation. The current method of making [[Help:Interwiki linking|interwiki link]] is already obscure and complicated, specially for newbies, instead a simple alias to the template namespace will be easy and handy in researches. -- '''[[User:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFD700;color:#002FA7">Zand</span>]][[User talk:ZandDev|<span style="text-shadow:2px 2px 1px #FFF944;color:#F50F0F">Dev</span>]]''' 13:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Note that I suggested <code><nowiki>tp:</nowiki></code> though, not <code><nowiki>t:</nowiki></code> as it was rejected previously: does that work for you? [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' I do work with templates but I feel that this is not an intuitive shortcut and could easily be confused with "talk page". ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' , I had typed TP: prefix in the past thinking that I would get the template page without success. This would be useful in different scenarios (just like the WP: prefix). And its use is optional, so if someone doesn't like it, they can go with the full Template: as ever. [[User:Alexcalamaro|Alexcalamaro]] ([[User talk:Alexcalamaro|talk]]) 05:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Unnecessary, and just as with T=Talk, TP=Talk Page. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 08:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Neutral''' Agree with the principle, would prefer access to a shortened version; but also agree that the proposal is too close to talk page. Regards, --[[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 22:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* I think supporting <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki></code> in the search bar would be sufficient to support the use case of issue. But beside that, I agree with '''oppose''' comments above. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Showing "Redirected from" notice at top of section ==<br />
{{tracked|T360255}}<br />
<br />
When one arrives at an article via a redirect, the page is rendered with an additional line saying "(Redirected from [...])", directly (?) below the "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" byline below the article title.<br />
<br />
For most of the many redirects that target sections of articles, instead of entire articles, that means that this line isn't in view, which makes little sense to me. After all, if the page includes any {{template link|redirect}}-type dab templates, those are placed as section hatnotes, not article hatnotes, which makes a lot of sense.<br />
<br />
Why not show the notice below the section title, either instead of or in addition to where it is now?<br />
<br />
- [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|talk]]) 16:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:<br />
:I think this is a good question. The notice linking to the redirect is useful as a way to get to the redirect page. and it informs the reader why they are at a place they would not expect to be, but it should be displayed where it can be seen, and preferably where it is most relevant, which would usually be at the redirect target. At the section header would be appropriate for R to section. Not sure about R to anchor. Cheers &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 17:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Ah, yes, anchors, good thinking. Their essential invisibility tends to make me fail to consider them more often than not. In this context, I recken that's probably fine, though, because keeping the thing itself hidden but then implicitly or explicitly drawing attention to it in a visible notice would be a bit weird, even if there were a nice space for it.<br />
::That said, I suppose a generic phrasing like "(Redirected from [...] to this location)" would work for both, or even all three, cases. That'd leave the space issue to be solved.<br />
::- [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:7D78:FB68:39A:4A28|talk]]) 22:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Good idea. Cuts down on confusion. How it would be implemented is another question. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 17:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{+1}} Good idea. I'd suggest filing a task on [[phab:|Phabricator]] to get some developer attention. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 18:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I've noticed that. Thanks for proposing this. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 18:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:This would've been a perfect technical wishlist submission if they hadn't just gotten rid of the technical wishlist. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 13:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Definitely "in addition", rather than "instead of". At the very least, this would help editors whose muscle memories have them press {{key|Home}} when following a redirect to a section. [[User:Jlwoodwa|jlwoodwa]] ([[User talk:Jlwoodwa|talk]]) 04:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There is a counterargument to be made, using the same scenario: If, after jumping to the top of the article, for whatever reason, one decides one wants to go back to the redirect's target location, again for whatever reason, the proposed change adds a new way to do that - Ctrl+F "redirected". Works either way, of course, but a bit better when there are no duplicates elsewhere.<br />
::Ah, but now that I imagine myself doing that, selecting "redirected" in the notice at the top, then Ctrl+F, then just hitting Enter once or twice may be even more convenient than typing it in. Never mind!<br />
::- (OP) [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB|2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB|talk]]) 14:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I totally support this idea, you should definitely file this on Phabricator! [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I will just mention that it works completely differently on mobile. Here, no matter where it sends you, a notice appears for a few seconds at the bottom of the screen, and then disappears. [[User:QuicoleJR|QuicoleJR]] ([[User talk:QuicoleJR|talk]]) 13:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Deprecating ''new'' unsourced articles ==<br />
<br />
After the events at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deletion of uncited articles]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced articles/Backlog drives/February 2024]], I think there is broad community consensus to ''not'' take any policy action against <u>old</u> unsourced articles. However, there should be a process in order to take action against <u>new</u> unsourced articles, because currently there are still new articles that does not have sources attached to it (see the 2023/2024 category at [[:Category:Articles without sources]]).<br />
<br />
I propose that articles that are created after '''1st April 2024''' and '''does not have any inline sources''' to be eligible for [[WP:PROD]]. Such a PROD can only be revoked after an addition of '''one''' inline, reliable, third-party source. That source does not need to completely establish the topic's notability (because that will be decided in AfD); its only job is to verify that this topic is not a hoax. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If this proposal is accepted by the community, it would greatly streamline our efforts to cleanup uncited articles and prevent the growth of the cancerous [[:Category:Articles without sources]] backlog. In the future, this "imaginary" deadline could be gradually push backwards to tackle older and older articles, until the backlog is fully cleared. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::And if we think further in the future, such a process can also be used to tackle [[:Category:Articles with unsourced statements]] as well. This would be a glorious sight to behold. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 06:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support''' As I have already said, independent reliable sources are needed to established notability, so such sources should be made explicit by citing them in any new article. As Levivich says, an article with no sources is a blog. Hell, when I was blogging a few years ago, I always included a list of sources at the bottom of a post, so that readers could read more about the subject, if they wanted to. Not providing sources when an article is created is just being rude to other editors who are somehow expected to do the work sourcing the article that the creator could not be bothered with. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{outdent}}<br />
I envision that there will be three things that needs to be done before this proposal can be enforced:<br />
# Make a new template similar to {{tl|Proposed deletion}} for this proposal<br />
# Communicate to new editors that articles on Wikipedia must have reliable sources cited, and it is ''strongly encouraged'' that they find reliable sources before writing the article<br />
# A way to tackle editor disputes about what constitutes "third-party" and "reliable".<br />
- [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Number two is extremely difficult. Anyone who knows English could be a new editor. There are many hundreds of millions of them. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 10:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:We should also find ways to retain new editors if this proposal is enforced, because that would set an even higher barrier for entry for new editors to Wikipedia. This is the reason I why invited [[WP:Wikiproject Editor Retention]] to this topic. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Do you mean [[depreciate]] or [[deprecate]]? [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 07:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::As in discouraging. It would be bad if we start to vandalize new articles in order to [[depreciate]] them though :) [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::New editors are already forced to go through [[WP:AfC]], which is not going to approve an unsourced article. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 13:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If you think the new editor article-writing experience is so demoralizing, maybe we should just not let new editors create articles in the first place? [[Special:Contributions/2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F|2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F]] ([[User talk:2603:8001:4542:28FB:E9B3:2893:5C25:E68F|talk]]) 07:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC) ''(Send talk messages [[User talk:2603:8001:4542:28fb::/64|here]])''<br />
::No. We already have the [[WP:Article wizard]] to aid completely new editors to create a new article. I think that the wizard should be shown more prominently in "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name" notification box, as well as making {{tl|AfC submission/draft}} and {{tl|AfC submission/declined}} easier to understand for new editors. But we need new editors and we MUST NOT make Wikipedia harder for newcomers to contribute. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 07:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The fundamental problem for newcomers is that editing Wikipedia is not convenient. It takes a substantial effort to do so. So, one way to make this easier is to improve on the article wizard and ask people to find a few sources before citing them. I imagine that the new article wizard would ask you for URLs/book titles (and pages), and once you create a draft it would show you how to expand these fragments of info into fully-fledged "wikipedia-compliant" citations. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 08:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Sorry for the horrendous MS Paint drawing, but this is what I envision it to be like this:<br />
::::[[File:Mockup, article wizard.png|center|400px]] [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 08:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:All of the objections raised to the two similar proposals in the last few months still apply. I really can't be bothered to repeat them again. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia here. Clearing a backlog is only incidental to this. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 08:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: I like this idea in theory, but will only support it ''once'' tools and wording changes for newcomers are instated. The risk of this detracting newcomers is high enough that I think the community should have a consensus that the new wording/templates etc. alleviate harm, and they should be ready to go before any changes are made. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 09:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I agree with this. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per all the arguments I've made before. [[WP:BURDEN]], basically. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 12:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Rather than a PROD, we should really just move new unsourced articles to draft. '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 12:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: '''This again?''' While [[WP:CCC|consensus ''can'' change]], it seems unlikely that consensus will have changed in the month since [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deletion of uncited articles]] was rejected. Let's not make this another topic area where people keep pushing essentially the same proposal with slightly different wording until, through tendentiousness and exhaustion, they manage to get something in (and then ratchet and repeat). [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 13:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Moving to Draft with a x day prod-like notice. I'm impressed by the relentless work done by a small number of overwhelmed volunteers trying to address this problem, and I support their efforts. I disagreed with the former proposal, but this one is acceptable, grandfather the existing article and raise the quality bar for new articles by a very small degree. We already do this with AfC, where quality standards are much higher, it is nothing we don't already do. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 14:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Query''': Can someone speak to how the newer entries in [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]] are ending up there? Don't all new articles these days have to go through [[WP:NPP]], which ought not to let them pass if they are unsourced? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**Did you find many such new articles? New page reviewers can mark unsourced articles reviewed if the topic is notable but I doubt that happens very often. Someone would have to sort those articles by creation/expansion-from-redirect date to find out.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710688165532:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 15:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:First one I checked from March 2024 was created by an autopatrolled editor, so even NPP wouldn't see it necessarily. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::[[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]], created March 24 or in the category March 24?<span id="Usedtobecool:1710690514437:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 15:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:::@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]], from [[:Category:Articles lacking sources from March 2024]]. (The article has since had one of its external URLs changed to a ref to remove it from the category.) [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::::The categories track the tagging date. And iirc some automated tools update tag dates when making unrelated edits. So, it's likely the new categories are just populating with old articles. Autopatrolled editors wouldn't remain autopatrolled if they created unsourced articles nowadays. I actually think autopatrolled has a higher bar than necessary but admins are very risk-averse.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710691924487:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
**:::::@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]], you're right, it wasn't ''created'' in March 2024, I should have looked more closely. [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 16:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
**::::::In general, I expect almost all the articles in those categories are old articles. Notability would have to be completely obvious and there would need to be no BLP element in the article for a reviewer to pass an unsourced article in 2024, if someone were to start [[Ancient history of Botswana]] that more or less concurs with relevant content in existing articles, for example.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710693080769:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 16:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
*:I draftify all new unsourced articles I see, but sometimes the creator tendentiously undraftifies it, and per [[WP:DRAFTIFY]], I'm not allowed to redraftify it, so I just tag it. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 19:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:What are they supposed to do about them? We don't delete articles [[WP:SURMOUNTABLE|just because they lack references]] and NPPers don't have a special 'article go away' button otherwise. Unless an unreferenced has [[WP:NPPBIG3|other, more immediate problems]] I think most experienced reviewers would tag it with {{tl|unreferenced}} and move on. Others might choose to bat it back and forth to draftspace a few times first, but the end result is the same. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' per the most recent discussion and disallow any new discussions on this for a few months. I've already seen several notable topics without sources or with only one source being moved to draftspace and then deleted after six months. A PROD would make this even worse. [[User:SportingFlyer|SportingFlyer]] ''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:top;">[[User talk:SportingFlyer|T]]</span>''·''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:bottom;">[[Special:Contributions/SportingFlyer|C]]</span>'' 15:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is for ''recent'' articles, not old articles. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Oppose''' Unsourced articles are bad but etching explicit grandfather clauses into Wikipedia's rules is worse. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 15:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yeah, I don't like the idea of grandfathering, especially given the potential to reinforce [[WP:SYSTEMICBIAS|systemic bias]], given that Wikipedia's content is becoming more diverse over time. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 16:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::That's why there is a moving deadline to the left to clear out the backlog. Stage one of this proposal is to prevent further growth of the backlog, stage two of this proposal is to start tackling the remaining articles from newest to oldest. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''', draftifying does the trick already. There do not seem to be many (any?) totally unsourced articles that make it through NPP, so I am not sure there are any articles that this proposal applies to (the category mentioned by the nominator contains mostly old articles that have been recently tagged as unsourced). —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 16:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. From above, it appears that newly created unsourced articles are already sufficiently handled by our existing rules and processes. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 16:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Mild oppose'''. Three concerns: First, the proposal and discussion seem to be conflating unsourced articles with articles lacking inline citations. Requiring all articles to have inline citations regardless of whether any content has been or is likely to be challenged is out of step with [[WP:V]] and quite a jump from settled practice. Second, is is not clear what it means for the affected articles to be "eligible" for PROD. [[WP:PROD#Deletion]] provides the following criteria for PROD eligibility: {{tq|the page is not a redirect, never previously proposed for deletion, never undeleted, and never subject to a deletion discussion.}} So as long as the proposer reasonably believes that the deletion will be uncontroversial there doesn't appear to be any particular procedural barrier to prodding these articles now. Third, it would be helpful to see evidence that there is a problem that needs solving. A PetScan query for articles created since January 1, 2024 in [[:Category:All articles lacking sources]] gives 8 results, including [[Quilombo Caçandoca|one article]] with listed references (so tagged incorrectly but still subject to this proposal) and one that is currently up for speedy deletion. The remaining six definitely have some issues, but I'm not sure we need this level of policy change to fix what seems to be a couple-of-articles-per-month problem. (OTOH, the counterargument could well be made that this just shows that the proposal is the best kind of wiki-rule: one that simply codifies existing practice to prevent future confusion. But if that's the argument it would likewise be helpful to have some quantitative details showing how this proposal maps onto existing practice.) -- [[User:Visviva|Visviva]] ([[User talk:Visviva|talk]]) 17:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:For what it’s worth, on March 1 and 2 I attempted to patrol the category in question and see if it was possible for one person to keep it down to zero. It sort of is but you run into articles that are unlikely to get deleted but next to impossible to source, and then things get out of hand if you miss a day. It’s a tough project. I just want to note that this is a burden on editors to fix, and a lot of times adding a inline source to a plainly bad article doesn’t do a lot. [[User:ForksForks|ForksForks]] ([[User talk:ForksForks|talk]]) 02:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::This is exactly what I meant. This PROD would essentially be a formal enactment of our "unspoken rule", which is that new articles on Wikipedia must have sources. A lot of people here don't get it. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Have you considered that it might be "unspoken" because it's not actually a rule? &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment''' – Let's suggest something new. Before PRODDING, one should check for sources. If it turns out that the unsourced article has no reliable sources to verify, then just PROD it; otherwise, it should be draftified as an easy and less bitey than prodding. [[User:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:#fc65b8;">'''Toadette'''</span>]] <sup>''([[User talk:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:blue;">Let's discuss together!</span>]])''</sup> 21:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. This proposal is not compatible with [[WP:NEXIST]] or [[WP:ATD]]. The topic of an unsourced article is often notable. The content of unsourced articles is often accurate and verifiable. An article is not "unsourced" merely because lacks of ''inline'' citations. Deletion of an article for lack of ''inline'' citations would result in the deletion of articles on topics whose existence and notability is not only verifiable, but is actually verified with sources actually cited in the article. The proposal is a solution in search of a problem, as there is no problem with unreferenced new articles that could possibly make it expedient to create a new sticky PROD similar to the BLP PROD. We are not being swamped with unreferenced new articles, and it is very easy, and takes very little time, to do a WP:BEFORE search. I '''propose''' that there should no further proposals for the creation of an "unreferenced PROD" for the next five years. I do not believe that there is any chance of consensus for the creation of a new PROD in the near future, and the community does not have time to !vote on what is essentially the same proposal again and again and again in quick succession. It is not particularly easy to check the large number of noticeboards for perennial proposals, either. [[User:James500|James500]] ([[User talk:James500|talk]]) 23:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Yet we often say in [[WP:BURDEN]] that "the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material." I do agree that retroactively apply this proposal to very old articles is a very dumb idea, but I do think that we need to ''explicitly'' communicate with new editors that new articles require at least 1 cited source. We can help them to find the sources, but ultimately the burden is on them to find it. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::This conflates notability with content; we can establish notability in the absence of sourcing in an aricle, verification of content requires sourcing. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 10:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Establishment of notability (in the Wikipedia sense) requires the existance of reliable, independent sources, so if we know what those sources are, why not cite them in the article? In other words, if no reliable, independent sources are cited in the article, where is the proof that the subject is notable? [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 13:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::This. The cognitive dissonance in these kind of arguments are deafening. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::The cognitive dissonance is the instance that [[WP:V]] says "verified with an inline reliable source from the first revision of the article" not "verifiable". If you want to change that, you need to explicitly propose amending [[WP:V]]. If you want to change "credible claim of significance" to "credible claim of significance supported by an inline citation to a reliable source" then you need to explicitly propose amending that page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::That should be obvious and needs amending now. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::Based on the number of comments in opposition here, I don't think it's obvious at all. However, if it is obvious then you will have no problem gaining consensus for the amendments. Just don't claim the consensus exists until you can provide a citation proving it does actually exist. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::I agree with DonaldAlbury above: the point of having one source, no matter if it's not reliable, or trivial, is to ensure that the [[WP:CCS]] is true. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 13:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong oppose''' I agree completely with James500. What matters is whether articles ''can be'' sourced, not whether any sources are currently listed in the article. We should be making it easier for editors (new and old) to contribute notable articles to the encyclopaedia, not putting even more barriers in their way. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' We need to build this idea that finding and including sources is step #1 of creating an article. And the burden shouldn't fall on overloaded volunteers to "prove a negative" when people don't bother with sources. But are there enough of these to be setting this up? I've done thousands of NPP's and don't think that I've ever seen one with zero sources and just a few with zero in-line sources. The widespread / pervasive volunteer-crushing problem is zero GNG sources. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:I mean, nobody's forcing you to look for sources. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 08:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::The greater fool theory, that someone else will do it, is not accurate: see the backlog. See the stats that show how few experienced regular editors. If we can't support our maintainers who are in the trenches doing this work, then you are right, they should not do it. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 15:52, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I think the is an extension of [[WP:CIR]]. Beside it is very frustrating to see in AfDs the comments "there are sources available" and "normal editing can solve this" after which absolutely nothing happens. Not even by the editors that state that there are sources available (when you know that, why do you not add them???). <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The&nbsp;Banner</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 17:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Strong support'''. I opposed the previous proposal to remove ''all'' unsourced articles, but this encyclopedia has existed for ''23'' years, and the standards have dramatically increased since then. Back then, this might've been acceptable, but it is no longer, hasn't been for quite a while, and this just codifies that. This is also in line with [[WP:BURDEN]]; we shouldn't have to prove a lack of notability to throw these articles out. [[User:Queen of Hearts|Queen of Hearts]] <sup>she</sup>/<sub>they</sub><sup>[[User talk:Queen of Hearts|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Queen of Hearts|stalk]]</sub> 20:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Strong support'''. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, let's not forget that, and its {{tq|purpose is to benefit readers by presenting information on all branches of knowledge}}. As others have said, having at least one source will at least verify the topic is not a [[wp:hoax|hoax]], and will ensure that the mentioned ''knowledge'' is not fake. These unsourced articles should at the very least be moved to a draft, in my opinion. [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 20:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. I don't love grandfather clauses either, but I think this is the least bad of the available solutions (the most bad being "Do nothing; just keep accumulating unsourced material indefinitely".) At some point, we have to turn the water off to the gushing pipe, and then we can focus on cleaning up the remaining mess. We really need to get across the idea of a "reverse BEFORE": ''Before'' you create or substantially add to an article, have ''in hand'' the reference material that verifies what you will write, and cite it. "Write first, hope someone sources it later, in practice let it sit unreferenced or CN tagged for the next ten years" should be an approach that is deprecated and ultimately not permitted (at least not in mainspace; if people want to do things [[WP:BACKWARD|backward]] in a draft or userspace, that's up to them.) An alternative might be to draftify unsourced new articles, and forbid returning them to mainspace until at least one source is added, but when you're already dealing with a flood, ''first turn the tap off''. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' mostly because a grandfather clause is generally a bad idea at best: why does this only become a problem on April 1, 2024? As other have pointed out, unsourced articles rarely make it through NPP and AfC, and even if we let PROD be used for this, it can still be contested and forced to go through AFD where [[WP:NEXIST]] makes it likely to be kept regardless of the number of citations in the article. The main practical effect I see is the grandfather clause, and it only makes sense if the goal of slowly removing the protection is bought into. The problem is that consensus from about a month ago doesn't show an appetite to apply this rule to articles that already exist, and without a mechanism to move the grandfather date automatically we'll have to keep having discussions to move it around which wastes time and risks running around consensus by tiring people out with constant discussions. I don't see this going well in practice. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]]</span> 21:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is why I suggested that "In the future, this "imaginary" deadline could be gradually push backwards to tackle older and older articles, until the backlog is fully cleared." [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::There have been multiple recent consensuses that explicitly opposed to using prod or speedy deletion to clear the backlog, so this is clearly something the community does not want and continuing to propose it is getting tendentious. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Is there something preventing us moving such articles to draft space that necessitates creating a new hammer? Also, requiring inline citations is a step too far and seems contrary to policy. I hope this isn't really what was intended and the proposal is just badly worded. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 22:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Inline citations are essential for verifying information in an article. As stated in [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]: "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an '''inline citation''' to a reliable source that directly supports the material." [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::So, contrary to policy, you are actually seeking to bypass the challenge part (for the contentious material) and jump straight to deletion (of the entire article)? <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 08:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::The crucial part of that is {{tpq|has been challenged or is likely to be challenged}}, and nowhere does it say that deletion of the article is the appropriate course of action for verifiable but not verified material. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::In practice, this is needed because it is very difficult to verify which statements belong to which source (with an exception of very short stubs). I would say that all sentences in such an article are likely to be challenged because they establish that "this topic exists in real life" and "this topic has X, Y, Z attributes that is true". [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::That's not what the policy says though, and there has been consensus against treating ''all'' unsourced statements as likely to be challenged because the person doing the challenging must assess whether the claim is a "sky is blue" type claim (and thus doesn't need a source), plausibly true (in which case they should attempt to find a source, and add it if found or tag it if not) or completely implausible (in which case they should remove it from the article). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 03:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. It is necessary that articles be based on sources, but not that the sources be cited in-line. Other, less [[WP:BITE]]y methods are better ways to address this issue than quickly deleting new articles. Such as a more leisurely deletion process or drafification. [[User:Eluchil404|Eluchil404]] ([[User talk:Eluchil404|talk]]) 00:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Comment'''. My reading of the previous discussions was that there is a consensus against (or at least a marked lack of consensus for) automatic deletion of unreferenced articles, old or new. Those previous proposals were weakened by a lack of clarity in scope and terminology, and it seems that this proposal is too:<br />
**What do you consider an {{tq|unsourced}} article? An un''referenced'' article? An article consisting of one or more un''cited'' claims? Or one that is not based on ''sources'', cited or not? Those are not synonyms, and anyone who has got stuck into trying to write or salvage articles will know that there is a big difference between an article that lacks citations and an article that lacks sources. <br />
**What is an {{tq|inline source}}? Do you expect people to copy the whole text into the article, or do you mean [[WP:INCITE|inline citation]]? In which case, how do you square this new requirement with [[WP:MINREF]], [[WP:GENREF]], [[WP:LISTVERIFY]], and [[WP:LEADCITE]]? <br />
**What is a "third-party source"? Elsewhere, that phrase can mean either ''independent'' ([[WP:GNG]]) or ''tertiary'' ([[WP:PSTS]]). In both cases, this would contradict current policy: ''independent'' sources are only required to demonstrate notability, and [[WP:NPOSSIBLE|need not be present in the article]]; ''tertiary'' sources are described by [[WP:NOR]] as less desirable than secondary ones.<br />
**What does it mean to be {{tq|eligible for PROD}}? All articles are eligible for PROD, ''if'' the deletion is expected to be uncontroversial. Does this remove the 'uncontroversial' requirement? Does that mean that this new type of PROD can be used multiple times? Or after an AfD?<br />
**If the only purpose of the required source is to {{tq|verify that this topic is not a hoax}}, what information actually needs to be in it? Or should it verify some of the article content? If so, how much? If not, where are you supposed to put the citation, if it doesn't actually relate to any actual article text? What about articles that are obviously not hoaxes (i.e. most of them)?<br />
:This would be a massive change to our inclusion standards. It needs to be properly thought through. &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 07:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[User:Joe Roe|Joe Roe]], I think all of these concerns are very valid and thus this proposal is not complete. Should I move this to the idea lab? [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 09:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Maybe not this specific discussion, which is already quite long. If you want to develop this idea further, I'd suggest going back to basics and asking what ''encyclopaedic'' purpose a mandatory citation for each new article would serve (i.e. beyond just removing it from [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]]). &ndash;&#8239;[[User:Joe Roe|Joe]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Joe Roe|talk]])</small> 11:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I wish that the opposers would detail more about what this proposal is missing rather than just regurgitating talking points. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' There is already a process that works (draftification through NPP), there is no need to complicate that. [[User:Curbon7|Curbon7]] ([[User talk:Curbon7|talk]]) 09:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - here are, at time of writing, the latest uncited articles created today which under this proposal would be prodded: [[Lake Rabon (South Carolina)]], [[Last Train To Fortune]], [[Khereshwar Temple]], [[Teluk Bahang River]], [[2024 Salzburg local elections]], [[Henry VI's Conquest of Sicily]]. I'm not seeing those articles as any more problematic than other similar unsourced articles. I think it is better that we make a judgement about which articles we delete rather than simply sweep away everything that meets a broad criteria. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 15:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:[[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]], all of them are either PRODDed or have one citation. Problem solved. [[Lake Rabon (South Carolina)]] is the only article here that currently does not have one ''inline'' citation and that should change now. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::So our current system works, no? None of the articles have been prodded, but those which were problematic have been moved to Draft space as appropriate. Some of those may be moved back into main space after they have been worked on. Better to go to Draft than to be deleted. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 17:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. First of all, as one of the patrollers, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NPP_flowchart.svg flowchart of NPP] clearly state that unsourced articles have to be draftified, not PROD-ed. PROD only applies to BLP articles that are unsourced, not other articles. If this is implemented, the procedure of NPP will have to be changed as well which requires further discussion before it can be implemented. We have to also consider [[WP:ATD]] where alternatives before deletion have to be considered before moving on to the deletion. This proposal also didn't consider [[WP:NEXIST]] - where the notability is based on the availability of sources, not the current state of the article where it may or may not be sourced. Finally, I think there is no need for this. Sending them to draft is enough for them to fix the article, or if they didn't want to fix it, it will be deleted anyway. [[User:SunDawn|<span style="background-color:black; color:orange;">&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;</span>]] [[User talk:SunDawn|<span style="color:blue;"><span style="font-size:85%;">(contact)</span></span>]] 16:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That's a good point. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The first edit to any new page should contain at least one source. One source is the minimum we should require for any page in mainspace. One source is the minimum we should require from anyone creating a new page in mainspace. One source is the minimum required to show that an edit or an article meets [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]], and [[WP:NOR]], our core content policies. One source is not too much to ask. And for this reason, there is little reason to save an unsourced draft. Without a source, a Wikipedia article is meaningless. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*: Isn't the reason to draftify an article exactly so that it can be brought up to mainspace standards before living in mainspace? [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 05:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::A draft with no sources is useless, it doesn't help anyone start an article, because you need at least one source in order to summarize sources. Also, while a petty concern, the editor who started an unsourced draft shouldn't get article creation credit. The first step of writing an article is to gather sources; people who write stuff off the top of their head are just blogging, not writing a Wikipedia article. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Just because sources are not explicitly listed does not mean they weren't used when writing the page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::It doesn't matter if they were used or not, if the sources are not listed in the draft, the draft is not helpful to anyone else. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::Firstly that is irrelevant, secondly it's not true. If someone has written an article about a topic but not included sources then another editor can find sources to verify the claims in the article without needing to know the claims (or even the topic) exist. There is no guarantee of course that such claims will present a comprehensive and neutral view of the topic, but that's true regardless of whether all, none or some of the claims are sourced. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 16:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::Irrelevant? You're the one who brought it up. I agree, it doesn't matter if sources were used or not used in the creation of an article, what's relevant is whether sources are listed in the article or not. If the sources aren't listed in the article, when second editor comes along in order to improve the unsourced article, the second editor has to start by looking at sources and coming up with a summary of those sources. Then the second editor can look at the unsourced draft and yeah, ''maybe'' the unsourced draft will magically be a perfect summary of the sources. This is, obviously, highly unlikely. ''At the very most'', in this highly unlikely scenario, the unsourced article would have saved the second editor a bit of typing. But that time saved typing is cancelled out by the time spent reading the unsourced draft and comparing it to the source material to see if it matches. That's a waste of time. I would never read an unsourced draft -- it doesn't matter what the heck is written there if there is no source listed. I would just gather the sources and write my own summary, completely ignoring the unsourced draft. It's ''useless'' to an actual article writer.<br />
*::::::And why do some editors spend so much energy defending unsourced articles? FFS, this is Wikipedia, it's coming up on almost 25 years now. The first step in writing an article is to gather not one source, or two, but three high-quality, GNG-compliant sources. If you don't have that, you don't have a notable topic, you aren't verifying what you're writing, you're just ''blogging'', not writing a summary of secondary sources. Writing off the top of one's head about a topic is not the same thing as summarizing sources. And if somebody's off-the-top-of-their-head blog happens to line up with an NPOV summary of high-quality RS, that's just like a freak coincidence, man. That is not what we should be striving for, or even tolerating, on Wikipedia. "But what if the bloggers happens to be right?" is an lol argument.<br />
*::::::If an editor happened to use sources in drafting the unsourced article and just forgot to put them in there, that's easily fixed. When the article is prodded, tagged for CSD, or AFD'd, the editor can add the sources. Heck, even after it's deleted, the editor can get it REFUNDed and add the sources.<br />
*::::::Much more likely, the unsourced article is unsourced because the author didn't summarize sources, they wrote off the top of their head. This is not worth saving, nor is it worth defending.<br />
*::::::Wikipedia articles are summaries of secondary sources. That's what they ''are'', and if they don't summarize secondary sources, then they're ''not'' Wikipedia articles, even if they're hosted at wikipedia.org. The starting point for every article and every editor is sources. Anyone who starts anywhere else is doing it wrong.<br />
*::::::Someday, more Wikipedia editors will come to realize this, and eventually Wikipedia will actually as a matter of policy ''require'' sources for ''all'' statements in mainspace. It's rather an indictment of Wikipedia that this was not the first policy, and that it's still not policy almost 25 years later. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::::I wasn't the one to bring this up, you brought it up in response to Zero. I'm not saying that it's not better to have sources in a draft (obviously it is), so most of your arguments are refuting something I'm not claiming. My only point here was that an unsourced draft can be helpful. <br />
*:::::::You are entitled to your opinion about how other people's workflows for writing articles is "wrong", but unless and until there is a consensus to modify [[WP:V]], [[WP:N]], [[WP:AGF]] and other core policies you don't get to impose your opinion on the encyclopaedia. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::::::What in the world am I doing that would be considered "imposing my opinion on the encyclopedia"? Comments like this is why I get frustrated discussing things with you. Nobody here is imposing anything on anyone, and this IS an RFC about modifying policy. This IS the right place to express the views I've expressed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 17:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''', because this creates a new type of deletion, which makes new page patrol and deletion workflows more complex. I believe that all new deletion proposals should work within our existing types of deletion. I think it would make more sense to expand the scope of BLPPROD, than to add a brand new NOSOURCESPROD that is in addition to the almost obsolete PROD (since folks always just unprod these and they end up at AFD) and BLPPROD. I will also note that many new page patrollers automatically draftify or BLPPROD articles without sources. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 21:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:{{tq|almost obsolete PROD (since folks always just unprod these and they end up at AFD)}}. Try looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary the evidence] rather than repeating silly tropes. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 22:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Hi @[[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]]. I don't think we've interacted before. It's nice to meet you. [[User:DumbBOT/ProdSummary]] appears to be a list of current prods. Got any reports that list the outcomes of prods, such as deprod vs delete? My point is that many prods are de-prodded, which then requires the patroller to follow up with an AFD. This is my anecdotal experience with using prod during NPP. Thanks. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 23:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Nice to meet you too. That link points to many articles where the PROD tag has been there for nearly a week and nobody has removed it, making your claim that that always happens false. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 14:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' if a new article is sent for deletion ''solely because there are currently no sources'', that's a bad rationale for deletion and a failure of [[WP:BEFORE]]. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 01:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:That is a good argument to get rid of [[WP:BEFORE]] too. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The&nbsp;Banner</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 17:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. Articles on notable topics which would be worth having but don't yet meet mainspace standards (lack of sourcing is only one possible reason) should be draftified. That is a step towards eventually having a good article, while deletion is a step away; I think it is obvious which is better for the encyclopedia. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 05:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:PROD would force that article to be improved or to be moved to draftspace. And frankly, why is it so difficult to cite one source in an article about a notable topic? I don't get the opposers' reasoning here. If there is no source in an article, how could we know that this article is not a total fabrication? [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as above, contradicts [[WP:NEXIST]]; unclear that this necessarily resolves a problem - as the February unreferenced backlog drive showed, even experienced Wikipedians were making mistakes and incorrectly sourcing articles. Regards, --[[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 11:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' per other guidelines and many other opposers, that sources existing and existing notability is enough to not use an enhanced PROD process. I am not a very big fan of draft space (I think working in articles space where there's many eyes is often better if it seems notable. And user space or off wiki is better at the stage where notability is unclear or if someone wants to draft an article solo.). However, I could see supporting a properly crafted proposal that articles less than 90 days old and entirely unsourced when draftified with care (so maybe a very weak form of [[WP:BEFORE]] is done) cannot be moved back to article space without adding at least one source that has a credible claim of at minimum verifying the article. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 15:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''MILD SUPPORT''' I think that any articles without citations should either provide a source or be deleted.{{pb}}But there should be a ~month long period to provide sources before deletion occurs. [[User:Redacted II|Redacted II]] ([[User talk:Redacted II|talk]]) 17:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' I know this is not going to succeed, but ultimately only this approach is consistent with the widespread (and beneficial) practice of improving verifiability by removing unsourced content from articles—which can only be restored if there is a reliable source. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 05:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''; not sure there is much more to be said about why this would not be a great idea. I think this would go against the spirit of the project, and that it would be a very costly move in return for not much improvement. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">[[User:JPxG|<b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>]]×[[Special:Contributions/JPxG|<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>]][[User talk:JPxG|🗯️]]</b> 05:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:This is not a "very costly move" as you have said, as multiple editors has pointed out that this is not that much different to how modern Wikipedia processes new unsourced articles. We just don't allow them to come to the mainspace. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
* '''Support'''. I also see this as unlikely to succeed, but I'd prefer to see the project move into this direction. I think it would be an improvement to require that article creators include at least one source, and I do not see current procedure as sufficient to deal with the unsourced article problem. I can understand the objections based on grandfathering, but I would prefer the harms of temporary inequity over the harms of doing nothing. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. I don't think the citation needs to be ''inline'', but geez y'all, it's 2024, citations are expected in everyday culture now, anyone dumping an unsourced article into mainspace (without followup edits) nowadays is willfully ignoring our requirements and clearly has no plans to join the community. We don't need to protect these precious new editors, and we don't need to retain unsupported information that would be deleted if it was in any other format than a standalone page. [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 16:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Levivich. [[User:Ajpolino|Ajpolino]] ([[User talk:Ajpolino|talk]]) 19:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. To be sure, a new, truly unsourced article is very likely to be hit by NPP for draftification, prod, or AFD (perhaps even when it really shouldn't). It's good practice to include at least some references. However, some editors take a narrow view of sourcing and consider implicit sources as "unsourced" when it really isn't (i.e. a newbie editor simply writing out "According to Joe Bloggs, blah blah blah..."). Secondly, the main case where valid "unsourced" articles exist are generally the frontiers that are good to create articles on for [[WP:CSB]] grounds. These are often translations of other language's wikipedia articles where there very well may be sources, but not ones easily consulted in English. Now, yes, other language Wikipedia editions have weaker notability requirements than enwiki, and yes, some of these are just authentically unsourced in the other language too. But this case is large enough that there will still be cases of ''plainly'' notable people who don't have articles yet, and deleting the articles out of misguided "consistency" doesn't make sense. Better to keep the article simple and non-controversial and wait on someone familiar with the foreign language sources, instead. Keeping this situation a valid option for creating an article means opposing the proposal. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 20:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Do I feel comfortable to say that we tolerate unsourced articles because someday, somebody will magically put a citation into it? No. Without work from the [[WP:WikiProject Unreferenced articles]], [[:Category:Articles lacking sources]] backlog would now have >150k articles and will keep growing from here. Plus, by de facto standard, we already ''strongly recommended'' that new articles should have an inline citation. Why is it so difficult to codify that into policy? If you translate an article from a foreign language to English, then it is very trivial for them to copy the citations to the English version of the article or find one source that verify that this topic/subject actually exist. It's not that difficult. If you want new editors to understand the new PROD criteria, why not being more clear in the Article Wizard that Wikipedia articles need to have sources? And if my proposal sounds BITEy, then that's because the whole PROD/AfD process itself is BITEy. Please, if that's the reason why you opposed my proposal, please suggest changes to PROD and AfD instead. This is not my fault.<br />
*:You might ask, why do I demand an inline citation in my proposal? This is because an inline citation helps me to verify a specific statement in the article. If that reference is placed below, a reader would have no idea what is the specific statement that we are referring to. Just to mention this, most new editors nowadays don't start out editing in wikicode, they start out with VisualEditor. When they fire up VisualEditor for the first time there is an explicit instruction dialog hovering below the citation button that instructs you how to make an inline citation. It's really not that hard to do for a beginner. Even if VisualEditor somehow cannot process your URL, you can always type that citation in plain text.<br />
*:And why do I ask that citation must come from reliable source? Because we don't want people to write an article about a notable topic with absolutely shitty sources, like Twitter posts, gossip websites, forums, etc. If the whole article is talking about the [[Ancient history of Botswana]] and every citation in that article refers to a self-published Blogger page, then that article is just as useless as it is uncited, because we cannot verify whether that article is spewing out myths or not. Many editors here objected my proposal due to [[WP:NEXIST]], but why is it so hard to ask people just cite one of those excellent sources to the first sentence, to verify that this topic ''actually exists'' in real life?<br />
*:I'm just gonna sum up my proposal as follows. Missing content on Wikipedia is terrible. Having incorrect content masquerading as facts on Wikipedia is much, much worse. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. I would think that if one was going to go through the expense of yet another RFC on the same theme (the third within six months?), it would have at least been better thought out. As Joe Roe and others have highlighted, clearly it is not. Anyway, we should not introduce this new process, subtly different from existing ones yet also similar and overlapping in purpose. I hesitate to expand our assortment of procedural mechanisms for deletion or quasi-deletion, which is already confusing to editors. [[User:Adumbrativus|Adumbrativus]] ([[User talk:Adumbrativus|talk]]) 04:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' [[WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP]], and neither is PROD. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 06:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:It ''is'' cleanup, in that a PROD indicates that "this article that does not have inline citations does not belong to Wikipedia". And it is not wrong to do so, because it corresponds to our current best practices. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 11:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' There is no excuse for creating an unsourced article in 2024. Unsourced articles cannot be repaired by adding sources; they must be rewritten because without the sources we cannot tell if they are COPYVIO. [[User:Hawkeye7|<span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span>]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|<span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span>]] 08:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support'''. The bar needs to be raised. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 11:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:No, this particular bar '''should not''' be raised. The proposal is about new unsourced articles and suggests to delete them instead of draftifying as we currently do. This would make our problem of [[WP:BITE]]ing newbies worse and give less feedback on how to write an acceptable article, without any change to the amount of unsourced content in mainspace. The backlog of unsourced articles is completely unconnected to the new articles that this proposal is about. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 14:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::How/when would that happen? Due to the backlog due to a handful of active NPP'ers being asked to do too much of the million editors' work and otherwise being too difficult and painful, it won't even get looked at at NPP until after the draftifying time limit runs out. Not that I think that there are very many completely unsourced new articles. The pervasive problem is lack of GNG sources for articles that need those. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 14:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' - the suggestion has already been turned down, apparently twice - no justification for bringing it up again so soon. For the rest, as per James500 and Joe. [[User:Ingratis|Ingratis]] ([[User talk:Ingratis|talk]]) 16:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:The last proposal said that we should PROD all articles right now that does not have a source. That's absolute lunacy. What I'm suggesting here is what the community has effectively done to new articles since 2020. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' I'm confused about what {{re|CactiStaccingCrane}} is proposing here. The header claims the proposal is (1) "deprecating new unsourced articles". But then he says (2) {{tq|I propose that articles that [...] [do] not have any inline sources}} can be PRODed. Unsourced articles aren't the same as articles lacking inline citations. He then specifies (3) "Such a PROD can only be revoked after an addition of one inline, reliable, third-party source" – apparently raising the bar even higher, since articles lacking inline, reliable, third-party citations aren't the same as articles merely lacking inline citations. There must be clarity on what exactly is proposed to be changed. – [[User:Teratix|Tera]]'''[[User talk:Teratix|tix]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Teratix|₵]] 16:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Make Todays Featured List appear exactly every 3 days instead of 3-4 days ==<br />
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'll ask it here. <br />
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Something that I've always been confused about is why TDL has a schedule where one list will appear three days after a list and then the next list will appear 4 days after instead of just three days again. I don't see how this could be for "we could run out of unique lists" purposes because there are over 3100 lists that haven't been featured on the main page. <br />
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So I propose that Todays Featured List should appear every 3 days instead of every 3-4 days on the main page. [[User:Onegreatjoke|Onegreatjoke]] ([[User talk:Onegreatjoke|talk]]) 00:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Per [[Wikipedia:Today's featured list]], it's because TFL appears Mondays and Fridays, aligning with days of the week. That seems to work fine, so I don't see a need for a change. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 08:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Exactly. Keep it on Mondays and Fridays! [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 05:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I think the "every Monday and Friday" pattern makes it easier for people to know when to look for it than your proposal would. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 14:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If you want to have more TFLs (no idea whether that is a good idea or not), just go for three times per week. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 17:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Creating Disambiguation page ==<br />
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The page “People’s Publishing House” is redirecting to a Beijing based People’s Press.<br />
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please remove this redirect and instead create a disambiguation page of “People’s Publishing House”, so that other pages with similar names, for example “People’s Publishing House (India) can be listed on that disambiguationmpage. [[User:Pallav.journo|Pallav.journo]] ([[User talk:Pallav.journo|talk]]) 10:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:If they really are of equal importance then a two-entry disambiguation page may be the best solution. However, the new article you created, [[People’s Publishing House (India)]], currently has only one primary source and may be at risk of deletion. Even if the new article remains, {{-r|People's Publishing House}} may be retained as a [[WP:primary redirect|primary redirect]] if the Chinese state press is deemed much more significant than a private company. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 10:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Proposal: Add a link to the [[WP:Contents]] page either on the Main Page itself or on the mobile sidebar ==<br />
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I found that it is very hard to get to the [[WP:Contents]] page in mobile view. Instead, I would have to search for in the search bar and go into desktop view to access it. I am proposing that we include this page somewhere on the main page. No opinion on where to put it on the main page, but my first thought would be to put it the other areas of Wikipedia section. Please comment with your thoughts below. [[User:Interstellarity|Interstellarity]] ([[User talk:Interstellarity|talk]]) 00:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:There is a link to [[WP:Contents/Portals]] already there. Having both that and [[WP:Contents]] would probably be redundant - which one is more useful on the main page? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&diff=1215045997Wikipedia:Help desk2024-03-22T20:13:07Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Article Issue */ Reply</p>
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<div>{{Short description|Page for questions relating to Wikipedia}}<br />
{{/Header}}<br />
{{skip to top and bottom}}<br />
[[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]]<br />
<div style="width:51%;">__TOC__</div><br />
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= March 19 =<br />
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== Can't Add my Article ==<br />
<br />
My Username is Drjeffreythompson, and I'm receiving the following error from trying to make a post about myself as an article on your website,<br />
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A tag has been placed on your user page, User:Drjeffreythompson/sandbox, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be advertising which only promotes or publicises someone or something. Promotional editing of any kind is not permitted, whether it be promotion of a person, company, product, group, service, belief, or anything else. This is a violation of our policies regarding acceptable use of user pages — user pages are intended for active editors of Wikipedia to communicate with one another as part of the process of creating encyclopedic content, and should not be mistaken for free webhosting resources or advertising space. Please read the guidelines on spam, the guidelines on user pages, and, especially, our FAQ for Organizations.<br />
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC) [[User:Drjeffreythompson|Drjeffreythompson]] ([[User talk:Drjeffreythompson|talk]]) 01:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:I see from your talk page that you've been warned, repeatedly, against creating promotional material and advertising. I suspect if you carry on, you'll be restricted or even blocked. Wikipedia is not LinkedIn. [[User:Doktorbuk|doktorb]] <sub>[[User talk:Doktorbuk|words]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Doktorbuk|deeds]]</sup> 01:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Dr Thompson, if an article about you were to appear in Wikipedia, you (and anyone associated with you), would have ''no'' control over what it contains, and anything appearing in [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] could be added to it and kept in it, even if detrimental: if you are the Founder/Director of the Center for Neuroacoustic Research, I suspect that there might be a good deal of the latter, since your area of work is probably regarded as [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories|Fringe]] by many. Please read [[Wikipedia:An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing]]. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.241.39.117|51.241.39.117]] ([[User talk:51.241.39.117|talk]]) 06:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|Drjeffreythompson}}, please read [[WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY]] to learn why what you are attempting to do is a very bad idea. The vast majority of attempts to write an autobiography on Wikipedia fail, with wasted time and frustration all around. Self promotion of any kind is strictly forbidden on Wikipedia and yet you are engaging in that prohibited behavior. Your phrase {{tpq|His passion for integrating the arts with healing}} is self-promotional BS that has absolutely no place in a neutrally written encyclopedia. Vast swathes of your deleted draft were entirely unreferenced, violating several Wikipedia policies. To be frank, your deleted draft shows quite clearly that you have zero understanding of Wikipedia's policies, guidelines or social norms. It is as if you decided to learn to play the piano without any experience, and tried to perform a concerto without taking a single lesson. How well do you think that would go? [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 09:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==[[Carole Middleton]]==<br />
Ref numbers 2 and 4 in this article are the same - please can you do a "double up" edit. Thank you [[Special:Contributions/101.115.139.136|101.115.139.136]] ([[User talk:101.115.139.136|talk]]) 04:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{done}} [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 05:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I actually did something very similar on [[Woodpecker]] recently, lol [[User:TypoEater|TypoEater]] ([[User talk:TypoEater|talk]]) 14:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Creating an article at a redirect ==<br />
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Let's say, hypothetically, I wished to create an article for an album at a title currently redirected to the artist. Should I:<br />
{{Ordered list |list_style_type=lower-alpha|Create a draft and use {{t|db-move}} when it's ready|Create a draft and copy the contents to the redirect (this would be OK for attribution purposes if no one else worked on the draft)|Draft under the #REDIRECT wikitext such that it remains a redirect, than "break" the redirect when ready}} [[User talk:Mach61|Mach61]] 05:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{ping|Mach61}} Assuming the redirect's edit history is fairly trivial, I would suggest that your first option there is the best one, simply because it would most effectively preserve the page history of your article. If it has a more extensive history, your second option starts potentially looking better (so others can see the redirect's history). Realistically, either of the first two options is just fine, especially considering that if the deleting administrator in option A decides the redirect's history is really important they'll keep it anyways. Option C is probably not ideal. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 05:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Most viewed pages in category ==<br />
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Hi all - I'm sure there's a way to do this, but I'm blanking right now. How can I find a list of pages in a category and its subcategories sorted by pageviews? [[User:LittlePuppers|LittlePuppers]] ([[User talk:LittlePuppers|talk]]) 05:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{ping|LittlePuppers}} I believe https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews will do what you're looking for – if the category is really big it will take a while though. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 10:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Indeed, that is the page. Thanks, {{u|Tollens}}! [[User:LittlePuppers|LittlePuppers]] ([[User talk:LittlePuppers|talk]]) 21:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikicommons ==<br />
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Hi there i wanted to ask how can i resolve this problem of Account ban on Wikicommons. I used to use wikicommons with vpn because Wikicommons is for some reason is banned in our country and is not accessible without vpn. I uploaded two Pictures on that account and worked fine. Now i just today clicked on upload it gave me a ban which i was not expecting. How can i even undo the ban and upload pictures on wikicommons without vpn.... [[User:Rahim231|Rahim231]] ([[User talk:Rahim231|talk]]) 07:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:This is probably better raised at [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump Commons:Village pump]. The problem is that VPN and proxy server IP addresses are blocked to prevent abuse. Depending on the error message that you are receiving, it may be possible for an admin to allow you to log in with a blocked IP address.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 09:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Sorry for causing out trouble here I'm learning slowly about wiki. I have logged my account on moblie and its working fine. But there is still one problem why the site is accessible to Mobile but not laptop ?. Thankyou for your attention here. @[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] @[[User:Ianmacm|Ianmacm]]. [[User:Rahim231|Rahim231]] ([[User talk:Rahim231|talk]]) 06:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I can't find any evidence that account Rahim231 has ever been blocked or banned on Commons or anywhere else. <br />
:So you should be able to post on [[C:COM:Village pump]] being specific about the problem you are having (what you tried to do, what you expected, what you saw). [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I tried out opening wikicommons on mobile and it opened without any Vpn, why is this so that on Desktop it isnt opening normally ? [[User:Rahim231|Rahim231]] ([[User talk:Rahim231|talk]]) 19:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:If Im not mistaken, there are instructions on what to do on the block notification displayed. Let us know. Sincerely, <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 07:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|Rahim231}}: If the mobile uses mobile data and the laptop uses wi-fi, they may have different IP addresses, which would account for why one works and the other does not. You can use https://browserleaks.com/ip or a similar website to see what your IP address is.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 07:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Actually both of them use the same Wi-fi. I checked out with the link provided, On laptop it only shows Public ip but does not show local ip where as on mobile it does show both local and Public ip.. [[User:Rahim231|Rahim231]] ([[User talk:Rahim231|talk]]) 08:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Help with a page ==<br />
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The company I work for has a page [[Interfaith Center for Sustainable Development]]<br />
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There is still a message that appears from 2021 although we lengthened the lead section: This article's lead section may be too short to adequately summarize the key points. Please consider expanding the lead to provide an accessible overview of all important aspects of the article. (March 2021)<br />
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Please advise what to do to remove it.<br />
Thank you [[User:EcoJew|EcoJew]] ([[User talk:EcoJew|talk]]) 09:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I've removed the tag, as you said the lead is now an acceptable length. However, there are a couple of alarm bells ringing: "The company I work for", you '''must''' read [[WP:PAID]] and [[WP:COI]] before editing the article further. "we lengthened", there's nothing wrong with collaboration as long as you have your own personal accounts, please don't be tempted to share. [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 09:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== [[Steppe Route]] - Page history - Authorships statistics : is this real ? ==<br />
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I am writing to you regarding the authorship statistics of "Steppe Route", an article that I initiated in 2017. As of the definition : Authorship attribution is measured by character count, excluding spaces<br />
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I am puzzled to see on the page history that the main authorship statistics (first big pie) shows that Diannaa made 21,266 edits when I contributed only 1692 caracters. However, I wrote most of the article and do not understand where this weird edit number comes from. <br />
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At the minimum this is very misleading, or flawed ( hard to believe ?), and at worse this looks like a manipulation to hijack authorship from other people work.<br />
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I just hope that changing commas or dots a thousand times (or other tricks) on existing articles does not help crediting you as the main author. Wouldn't it be a dishonest game to play for anyone willing to inflate one real and subtantial contribution to this encyclopedia ?<br />
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Thank you for enlighting me. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 09:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{ping|Olcoispeau}} It looks like this is just because she removed copyrighted content from the page and (appropriately) redacted the versions of the article containing that content. The first revision that is publicly available is then from one of her edits – the computer program which generates the authorship chart is unable to determine who contributed any particular content before the first publicly available revision so it has no option but to attribute all content between the two (incorrectly) to the user who made the last revision in that span of time. She did not 'change commas or dots a thousand times' (and doing so would not alter an editor's position in the authorship chart), and I am absolutely 100% certain that she did not do this to hijack the authorship chart. There isn't really anything that can be done about this, unfortunately. Anyone who wishes to view the correct statistics can easily view the page history here on Wikipedia and see that you have contributed the vast majority of the article over more than a hundred edits while Diannaa's contributions only deleted material, so I would not be too concerned about this. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 09:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There is obviously a substantial "fairness" and "misrepresentation" problem here. <br />
::These days, responsible brands do not allow reference misleading statistics to be displayed without comments. <br />
::This pie is the first visible authorship "reference" pie defined as "measured by character count, excluding spaces". Another evidence is that its size is bigger than the two other pies.<br />
::The magnitude of difference in the characters count 21 266 / 1 692 shows that such imbalance is obviously problematic and misleading since it grossly distorts reality.<br />
::Everything can be fixed these days especially when it relates to fair and honest representation and practices.<br />
::One may also argue that it provides an easy incentive for quasi permanent wiki editors who know the AZ of the Wiki system to "redact" a maximum of sentences with a slight resemblance with existing material, and consequently accumulate overinflated credit for their work. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 11:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{u|Olcoispeau}}, if you look at {{u|Diannaa}}'s [[Special:Contributions/Diannaa|edit history]], you'll see that much of her work is removing copyright violations. I agree that the authorship statistics could be calculated better, but I've no idea how that might be achieved. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 11:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:{{U|Olcoispeau}}, you say: {{Olive|I just hope that changing commas or dots a thousand times (or other tricks) on existing articles does not help crediting you as the main author. Wouldn't it be a dishonest game to play for anyone willing to inflate one real and subtantial contribution to this encyclopedia ?}} I suspect that only a small percentage of Wikipedia editors are sufficiently childish or petty-minded to want to do this. {{Olive|These days, responsible brands do not allow reference misleading statistics to be displayed without comments.}} I hadn't thought of an encyclopedia as a brand; but whether it is or isn't a brand, if you are dissatisfied with the formulae involved or the displays you are of course free to propose improvements. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 11:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia has an economic life and a worldwide recognition under a well known name, this is what (in simple terms) I call a major brand name.<br />
::I am therefore saying that there is a substantial "fairness" and "misrepresentation" problem on the authorship page due to the problem previously exposed - which is a fact.<br />
::When there is a problem which is indeed a source of disactifaction, there is a solution. When there is no desire to correct a problem or complicate the problem, there are more questions. <br />
::I am therefore proposing :<br />
::- to amend the authorship definition which is misleading<br />
::- to debate on the positionning and size of this pie which does not reflect the real authorship in terms of substance<br />
::The coding of this page is beyond my capacities but I am sure some people in the wiki community understand exactly what I am talking about and how this can be remedied. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 12:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Am I missing something here? "Authorship", "authorship attribution" and "main author" sound like you think you [[WP:OWN]] that article. That's contrary to Wikipedia's purpose. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 11:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Did I say something like that? please stick to the facts and to my previous messages and only that, that would be more helpful. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 12:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The data in the "Authorship" section is not reliable in this instance because [[WP:revision deletion|revision deletion]] was performed on many of the early edits because of copyright violations that you yourself added, right from the creation of the article. If you look at the "[https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Steppe_Route#top-editors Top editors]" section you will find some accurate data on how many edits each editor performed and how much content they added to the page. If you want to offer suggestions on the tool, scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Feedback" or "Report an issue".{{pb}}I see you also suggest that I may have redacted these edits as a way to pad my own stats. I can assure you that I have neither the time nor the interest to be doing that, and to do so would be an abuse of admin tools, and thus not something I would ''ever'' consider doing. — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 13:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] genuine question - does this matter? Articles change all the time, it is rare for any original text to remain for very long, see [[Ship of Theseus]]. As every article is a collaborative effort, you may be thinking about this the wrong way? There is no ownership of articles or content. Your edits can be deleted and changed at will. I suggest you are overthinking the authorship statistics too much. <span style="background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;">'''[[User:Qcne|<span style="color: GhostWhite">Qcne</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Qcne|<span style="color: GhostWhite">(talk)</span>]]</small></span> 13:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Does it matter? you are asking a good question.<br />
::Then does anything matter, this is a real question. <br />
::This is not the world we are currently living in. Facts are facts, distoring the reality is wrong, especially when it is to the benefit of those encouraging this distorsion. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 14:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{re|Olcoispeau}} Accuracy of authorship statistics is not a Wikipedia goal: They are a minor exercise in arithmetic. I have been editing WP for 18 years, and I was unaware for them. I suspect that the readership has zero interest in them. Accurate attribution is a policy, and the article history shows your contributions. Removal of copyright violations is not just a core policy, it's also the law. If you feel like you are being penalized as a side effect of violating copyright, then I think that is a good result. -[[User:Arch dude|Arch dude]] ([[User talk:Arch dude|talk]]) 13:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::"Accuracy of authorship statistics is not a Wikipedia goal": this is good to know ... so misrepresentation and fairness are not a concern either.<br />
::Copyright violations : I know the law, do anything I can to respect it, and we can talk about it at length especially on how this is interpreted by "editors". I do not feel penalized or anything, but obviously the margin for debating about what is now a deeply entrenched "system" is limited. <br />
::And as you are refering to the law and violations (that was not my initial point), misrepresentations are not tolerated in the for profit or non for profit world. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 14:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::There is no "misrepresentation" because accurately "representing" this particular metric is not even being attempted. Literally no-one (besides yourself) cares about it.<br />
:::There is no "unfairness" because no-one is (or should be) judging anyone by this unimportant arithmetic by-product.<br />
:::I fail to see how discussing this matter in any way advances the goal of creating and improving a global encyclopedia. If you are not here to do that . . . . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.241.39.117|51.241.39.117]] ([[User talk:51.241.39.117|talk]]) 16:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::This is public information available to all with a specific definition attached to authorship to explain what this pie means. So this is very precise.<br />
::::Therefore, this is not neutral especially since it provides artifically overinflated credit to people who did not contribute real substance (based on initial word count) - but possibly needed editing (don't take me wrong).<br />
::::You denial of "misrepresention" and "unfair information" is a problem, since you deny an evident fact based situation. In the real world, scorecards, reports and other statistical templates need to be improved all the time. Denying what is at least an obvious technical problem is worrysome and calls for many more questions. [[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 14:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I was not aware of this "measure of authorship" until today. I find that, for the two articles I'm proudest of having created, I wrote 27% of one and 83% of the other. I'm now prouder of the 27% article - other editors have found it interesting enough to contribute to. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 17:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::{{ping|Olcoispeau}} For the record, the "Page statistics" link in the page history and the linked tool is not part of MediaWiki. The link was added to [[MediaWiki:Histlegend]] by editors at the English Wikipedia. The tool is not perfect but few things are, and it's better to have it than not. [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] followed standard practice when content was revision deleted but if it really matters to you then maybe she would consider to also revision delete her own visible edit at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steppe_Route&action=history&offset=20180205182238%7C824165059&limit=7]. This was not possible at the time but it's possible now when it's not the current revision. The next edit happens to be by you so if Diannaa's edit is revision deleted then the page statistics tool may credit you for all content at the time (including a little by other users). But I don't know if and when the tool will adjust in case the revision is deleted. It's possible it uses cached information. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 18:23, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Hiding that edit to correct the stats is not listed as a citerion under the revision deletion policy, so I will not be doing that. — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 18:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::{{ping|Diannaa}} Would you object as author of the revision if I did it and called it "RD6. Non-contentious housekeeping" at [[Wikipedia:Revision deletion#Criteria for redaction]], and linked this discussion? It's not mentioned at RD6 but it says "including" and gives an inexhaustive list of possible reasons. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 18:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I am not sure I agree with doing it, but I won't raise any objection if you do. — [[User:Diannaa|Diannaa]] ([[User talk:Diannaa|talk]]) 21:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Thanks. We try to help posters here. {{ping|Olcoispeau}} There was no delay. You are now listed as author of 84.9%. We don't normally do this so I hope you appreciate it. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 22:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{Ping|Olcoispeau}} I presume you refer to the page at https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Steppe_Route ? If you look at the URL, you will see that that page is not a part of Wikipedia, but is hosted on [[WP:xtools|xtools]] (it's also tagged with an "external link" icon on the article's history page). It is documented at [[mw:XTools/Page_History]], and you can leave comments or complaints on the corresponding talk page there. {{pb}} More generally, please familiarise yourself with our [[WP:AGF|guideline on assuming good faith]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 20:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::It's nice to read your reactions and contributions. @Diannaa it's nothing personnal, thank you for your work which is appreciated.<br />
::I am trying to explain that there is certainly room for improving this scorecard and statistical page, since a more balanced and accurate representation of everybody's contribution would be better for all. Stats are not neutral, so it's important for a community to take care of these housekeeping details to protect harmony and ensure a good representation of everybody's fair contribution. <br />
Now I'll stop here - thank you all<br />
::[[User:Olcoispeau|Olcoispeau]] ([[User talk:Olcoispeau|talk]]) 14:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Cause of death of non-notable people ==<br />
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Should we mention the cause of death of non-notable people in Wikipedia articles when they and their deaths are not the topic of the article? E.g. family members who died from illness, suicide or accidents? [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 18:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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: {{Ping|Polygnotus}} It depends on the context (for example, in an article on Fred, saying "Fred's wife died of leukaemia" is relevant, if Fred is known, even partly, for his subsequent fundraising for leukaemia research). We need to know which article and which person before we can give you a more specific answer. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 20:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Makes sense, thank you! [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 11:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== My edit kept being removed ==<br />
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Hi there is page on wiki on list of Indian chefs on updating with a name of globally recognized chef on the list - Mr Alex from Wiki team keep deleting the name ? Why is that being done - is this list only for people who pay for PR companies to be on wikipedia ?? It’s a free portal and there is every right person to added on the list if he or she belongs on the list - Chef Sanjay thakur is an global figure and person - Alex from your team is he subject matter expert to know the list of Indian Chefs . [[User:Jay198711|Jay198711]] ([[User talk:Jay198711|talk]]) 20:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:The list is only for those who have a Wikipedia article. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 20:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Please see [[WP:WTAF]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 21:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Sanjay Thakur does not meet the [[WP:GNG|criteria for inclusion on Wikipedia]] so I wouldn't recommend writing an article about him. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 22:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Why are you some kind of CEO of wikipedia to decide that or you own the platform ? [[User:Jay198711|Jay198711]] ([[User talk:Jay198711|talk]]) 04:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I am, as far as I know, not the CEO of Wikipedia, nor its owner. I have used Google to determine that Sanjay Thakur does not meet the [[WP:GNG|criteria for inclusion on Wikipedia]]. For more information, see [[Wikipedia:Notability]]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 04:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I would be very careful with how you word things, as that could be taken to be some sort of [[WP:NLT|legal threat]], which usually ends in the one who issues them being blocked. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 12:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Jay198711, you might find my essay [[User:ColinFine/What Wikipedia doesn't care about]] illuminating. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 13:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{Ping|Jay198711}} Please also read [[WP:AGF]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Infobox usage ==<br />
<br />
Dear all,<br />I have a general question about infoboxes, specifically about the [[Template:Infobox officeholder]]. As many other infoboxes it contains a lot of variables to fill in, and it offers to add custom variables. This may lead to very long infoboxes, especially when folded out. Since my hobbyhorse is [[Trinidad and Tobago]] here's two examples: [[Kamla Persad-Bissessar]] and [[Basdeo Panday]]. My knowledge of en:WP habits is limited, but in de:WP it's common practice that infoboxes should summarize the core information of the article, those aspects the lemma is most notable for. How does en:WP handle that? Should every function of a person (e.g. member of parliament, when the person was a prime minister later on) and every kind of personal information (e.g. non-notable kids) be listed in the infobox, or are there limitations? I may have handled that incorrectly in the past, so I'd be grateful for explanations on how detailed infoboxes should be filled.<br />Thanks and kind regards, [[User talk:Grueslayer|<span style="text-shadow: .2em .2em .2em #c5C3e3; font-family: Georgia; font-variant: small-caps; color: black">Grueslayer</span>]] 21:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Please see [[Help:Infobox]]. Only the [[Template:Infobox_person#Blank_template_with_all_parameters|most important details]] that are also present in the article should be mentioned. Non-notable kids should never be mentioned by name. I tried cleaning it up a bit. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 22:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==[[Middleton family]]==<br />
Please return the "Further Reading' section at the bottom of this page - I accidently removed it. Sorry. I cannot return it on my device. [[User:Srbernadette|Srbernadette]] ([[User talk:Srbernadette|talk]]) 23:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:{{done}} [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 23:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Fixing a file ==<br />
<br />
Hello, I need a little help. There's this file [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_Presidential_elections_in_Slovakia.svg here] which is fine when you click to see it fully, but somehow appear all bugged when [[2024_Slovak_presidential_election#Opinion_polls|on a page]]. Anyone know why, and how to fix it? [[User:Aréat|Aréat]] ([[User talk:Aréat|talk]]) 23:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Some comments, not a helpful answer. When I click on the image to see the full-sized version at Commons, it is, I thnk, rendered correctly. But it's hard to uderstand. Most of the candidates are represented by dots in various shades of grey; and the lines don't pass through the dots. But when I look at the image when it's included in a page, it's mis-rendered: the dots in the key are misplaced.<br />
:It's hard to see what's wrong by looking at the source code, as it has no linefeeds, just one line many thousands of characters long. But I suspect it uses an unsuitable font<s>: see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:SVG#Fonts_.2F_text</s>. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 08:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I tend to agree. The SVG is currently declared to be using "Source Sans Pro", which at least my browser doesn't recognize. Additionally, the WC3 validator [https://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb2%2FOpinion_polling_for_the_2024_Presidential_elections_in_Slovakia.svg&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&ss=1&verbose=1 detected some 500 errors], which may or may not break rendering the png files (from the looks of things most is W-ARIA stuff, although there are a few other things in there) {{u|Maproom}} your Commons link leads to a nonexistant section for me, did you mean [[:c:Help:SVG#Font_substitution_and_fallback_fonts]]? [[User:Victor Schmidt|Victor Schmidt]] ([[User talk:Victor Schmidt|talk]]) 09:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I did. Thank you for providing a correct link. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 09:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::{{ping|Maproom}} have you tried [[:c:Commons:Commons SVG Checker]]? It currently gives errors about "Attribute stroke-dasharray" and warnings about fonts. [[User:MKFI|MKFI]] ([[User talk:MKFI|talk]]) 12:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
= March 20 =<br />
<br />
==[[Lewis Carroll]]==<br />
This should be the URL for reference number 95 (which in "red" and wrong)<br />
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/2017889<br />
Please repair if you are able - I cannot. <br />
Thank you<br />
[[Special:Contributions/115.70.23.77|115.70.23.77]] ([[User talk:115.70.23.77|talk]]) 00:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: The redlinks are due to wikilinks to articles that don't exist yet. That's not an error, if there is a chance those articles will be created. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 00:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Removed one redlink. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:See [[WP:REDLINK]]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 09:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== How i can publish my article on wikipedia? ==<br />
<br />
Hello can anyone tell me how can I publish my information about [https://www.flagleunlimited.com/ flagle unlimited] on wikipedia [[User:Islamjad|Islamjad]] ([[User talk:Islamjad|talk]]) 00:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:By basing [[Draft:Flagle Unlimited]] on [[WP:RS|what Wikipedia classes as reliable sources]] and writing the draft in accordance with a number of policies. In particular, divulging any [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] that you may have. So, let's start. Here, in this message thread, please provide links to three reliable sources, independent of each other and of course also independent of the producer of this game. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hello, {{u|Islamjad}}. I recommend that you read [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day]]. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Adding information from video game's credits ==<br />
<br />
I was to add [[Sascha Dikiciyan]] as the composer to the infobox of ''[[Wild 9]]'', but @[[User:Sergecross73|Sergecross73]] recommended this information must be properly sourced as the game is obscure. Dikiciyan is credited as his alias "Sonic Mayhem" in the game's credits, so I'd like to cite this as reference directly. What's the correct format and template to do this? [[User:Emiya Mulzomdao|Emiya Mulzomdao]] ([[User talk:Emiya Mulzomdao|talk]]) 08:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{ping|Emiya Mulzomdao}} Hello! I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wild_9&diff=1214653616&oldid=1214505605 added sources for both] (the websites of the artists listed these games as projects they worked on). You could look at [[Help:Referencing for beginners]] and [[WP:CITE]]; if you have any further questions feel free to return here and ask them. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 08:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Sergecross73|<span style="color:green">Sergecross73</span>]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|<span style="color:teal">msg me</span>]] 11:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Warning template for reverting editor ==<br />
<br />
Hi, I noticed that @[[User:Melvin Hudson|Melvin Hudson]] has been constantly reverting other editors' edits, and most of the reverted content seems fine. Which warning template should I use to inform him about his actions? Thanks. [[User:CanonNi|CanonNi]] ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]]) 08:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I don't think warning templates are appropriate in this case. Warning templates have a habit of making things worse. It is probably better to ask an experienced and tactful <s>moderator</s> [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] to take a look. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 09:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Wikipedia does not have 'moderators'. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 09:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::My bad. {{fixed}} [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 09:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I understand. Also, thanks for fixing that typo on my user page! [[User:CanonNi|CanonNi]] ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]]) 09:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:(Note: matter also raised by a different querant at the Teahouse.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.241.39.117|51.241.39.117]] ([[User talk:51.241.39.117|talk]]) 10:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:'''Note''' - The mentioned editor was indeffed by {{noping|Amakuru}} [[User:Shaws username|<span style="background-color:#f28305; color:#110094; font-family:Courier new; font-weight: bold">Shaws&nbsp;username</span>]]&nbsp;.&nbsp;[[User talk:Shaws username|<span style="font-family:Courier new">talk</span>]]&nbsp;. 14:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Reporting users from edit filter ==<br />
<br />
While watching the edit filter log, i sometimes see users (or ips) trying to vandalize over and over but getting disallowed.<br><br />
If they continue to do so after getting a level 4 warning, should i report them to [[WP:AIV|AIV]]? [[User:Begocc|<span style="background-color: SlateBlue ;padding: 2px 2px 1px 1px; border-radius:5px; color: Lavender"> begocc </span>]][[User talk:Begocc|<sup> questions? </sup>]] 10:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{u|Begocc}}, the answer is "yes". [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 15:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
= March 21 =<br />
== Bare Ref ==<br />
Can someone convert this bare ref [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342945119_Female_Representation_in_Video_Games] to a proper one? I think it is kinda tough to convert this one. [[User:Greenish Pickle!|<span style="background:green;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">Greenish</span>Pickle!</span>]] ([[User talk:Greenish Pickle!|🔔]]) 05:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[Template:Cite journal]] seems appropriate. Is this [[CLEI]] or some other CLEI? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 08:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:{{blue|<nowiki>journal=CLEI Electronic Journal | volume=22 | number=2 | date=August 2019 | title=Female representation in video games | first1=Paula | last1=Casagrande Bristot</nowiki>}} and so on for the other authors, via=Researchgate, etc. But I'm no expert on Brazilian people's names; ideally you should ask a Lusophone person to advise you on which are "first" and which are "last" names. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 08:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] Tbh, I have no Idea and this is literally my first time citing a journal article, but I actually copy pasted what Hoary said. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I made it properly now [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ada_Wong&diff=prev&oldid=1214811815] Thanks for the help [[User:Hoary|Hoary]].~ [[User:Greenish Pickle!|<span style="background:green;border-radius:9999px;padding:1px 8px;color:white;"><span style="font-weight:bold">Greenish</span>Pickle!</span>]] ([[User talk:Greenish Pickle!|🔔]]) 09:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
@[[User:Greenish Pickle!|Greenish Pickle!]] That article has a [[digital object identifier]]. Hence the very useful Wikipedia [[WP:Citation expander]] gadget will create the reference directly. According to that the citation should be like this.<ref>{{cite journal |doi=10.19153/cleiej.22.2.7 |title=Women Representativity in Games |date=2020 |last1=Bristot |first1=Paula Casagrande |last2=Pozzebon |first2=Eliane |last3=Canal |first3=Felipe Zago |last4=Da Rosa Carraro |first4=Julio Augusto |last5=Bolan Frigo |first5=Luciana |journal=Clei Electronic Journal |volume=22 |issue=2 }}</ref> The strange translation of the title is what Clei themselves use, although the underlying .pdf is in English with the title that Hoary quoted! Adding |doi-access=free is all that is needed in addition. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 13:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{talkref}}<br />
<br />
== Need help to put company page here ==<br />
<br />
I need help to put a company page on Wikipedia.<br />
The submission keeps getting rejected due to low reference links. <br />
<br />
Need some suggestions on what kind of reference links are needed for the listing to be approved [[User:Cheryl Fernandes89|Cheryl Fernandes89]] ([[User talk:Cheryl Fernandes89|talk]]) 11:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:First, if you work for this company, the Terms of Use require you to disclose that, see [[WP:PAID]]; please also read [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]].<br />
:We don't have "company pages" here. We have '''articles about''' topics, including companies. These articles summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about a company, showing how it meets the special Wikipedia definition of [[WP:ORG|a notable company]]. These sources should not be press releases, staff interviews, announcement of routine business activities, brief mentions, or other [[WP:PRIMARY|primary sources]]. What sources do you have? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 11:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Why did the user undo the edits and mark them as unconstructive? ==<br />
<br />
Yesterday, [[Vaughan Gething]] was confirmed as leader of the Welsh Government.<br />
<br />
The [[List of current heads of government in the United Kingdom and dependencies|page]] was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_current_heads_of_government_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_dependencies&diff=prev&oldid=1214682613 updated] to reflect the change of leadership.<br />
<br />
However, the revision was immediately [[User talk:2A00:23C7:A00C:9801:ED19:2290:89A7:55F|undone]]. The [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|editor]] that undid the revision states: "…[the contribution] did not appear constructive"<br />
<br />
What does the editor mean by that? The revision was made to reflect a real world event and a citation was given. What should have been done to ensure the revision was made without being undone? [[User:HandsGlue|HandsGlue]] ([[User talk:HandsGlue|talk]]) 11:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:{{ping|HandsGlue}} Looks like just a mistake. Unavoidably, they sometimes happen. Apologies, if the IP that made the edit was you. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 11:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:HandsGlue|HandsGlue]]: Have you asked the editor that did the reversion. They have a talk page, or you could start a discussion on the article's talk page. Use {{tl|reply to}} or similar to attract the editor's attention. <span class="nowrap">[[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span class="tmp-color" style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]])</span> 12:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::They pinged the editor by linking to their user page in their question above (whether they intended to or not, I don't know, though). [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 12:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::The revert was possibly a question of timing per [[Wikipedia:Not a crystal ball]], but it should have explained what the problem was. Also, the title of the reference used was "Vaughan Gething to become next first minister of Wales after winning Welsh Labour leadership race" so it didn't confirm that the event had actually happened. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 12:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Permanent delection for all the information related to Morgan Hermand Waiche ==<br />
<br />
Good morning editors, I have been trying to contact you through different ways regarding to a permanent removal from your website. We want all the information regarding Morgan Hermand Waiche to be removed from your website. As you can control the new information added we don't want to have future posts regarding this matter either. Can you help me with this or tell me how to escalate this claim? thank you in advance.[[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 15:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The only reference I can find about this individual is at [[Adore Me]], which a person by that name founded. It's extremely unlikely that the founder of a notable company would be removed from an article, and no one can guarantee no one else on this planet will add information about him. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 15:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:(ec) For what reason do you purport to represent him, and why does he want to not be described as the founder of his company? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 15:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I can't see any other information about him anywhere, and who is "we" exactly? [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] There is a lot more information about him from a simple Google search, including his own [https://www.linkedin.com/in/morganhw Linkedin profile]. Wikipedia has much less about him than is freely available elsewhere and I don't see any policy-related reason to delete what '''is''' here. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 15:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I just removed his birthday date and age. Which is what he is asking for. We (Adore Me). As I'm representing him in this matter. Thank you in advance for answering my request that fast. [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 16:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Where did you do this? Your edit history only has your edits to this page. If you are employed by him or his company, the Terms of Use require disclosure, see [[WP:PAID]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Where do I have to do this? I asked to the email you have for information requests directly. [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 16:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::You make the paid disclosure on your user page(click your username to go there).<br />
:::::::There is no article on the English Wikipedia with his personal information. Are you observing it on Google? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::It's not about him not representing Adore me is about his personal information (Birthday date and age) [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 15:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::What article does his personal information appear in? I don't see it in [[Adore Me]], but I may have missed it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 15:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Which Wikipedia page includes that information, {{u|AngelamL}}? What is your relationship with him? [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::: E/C Those details are NOT on Wikipedia, I guess you are looking at what Google provides, Wikipedia has no control over that. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 16:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::The article in question has not been edited since November 12, 2023, so you could not have just removed that information. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 16:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::I have been trying since 2 weeks ago! And every time it appeared again! That's why I'm asking for your help. Hopefully this time it's going to work! [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 16:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::@[[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] As you have already been told, the information exists in [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=morgan+hermand+waiche Google search], and possibly elsewhere but ''is not here in Wikipedia''. You must take up your concerns with them, not us. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::[[User:AngelamL]], please listen to what everyone here is saying: the [[Adore Me]] article is the only one on the English Wikipedia site that even mentions "Morgan Hermand Waiche", and that article does not have the birthday. The account "AngelamL" has not edited that article ever. Looking at that article history, I cannot find that it has ever listed a birthday. The only thing the English Wikipedia controls is English Wikipedia site itself, not other wikipedia sites (French Wikipedia, for example) and not search engines like Google. There is nothing related to English /wikipedia at issue here, so we cannot help you. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Hermand-Waiche the information was here not at Adore Me post. [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::You will have to take your concern up with French Wikipedia directly. They are independent of us for content and editorial purposes. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 16:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:DMacks|DMacks]] It seems that @[[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] is also referring to [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q20089624&diff=2095554968&oldid=1969095297 this edit to Wikidata]. I have no knowledge of whether this is policy-compliant. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Yes, I saw that edit, and a similar one to frwiki (is why I had mentioned that site specifically). Who's Who is often considered unreliable for enwiki, but I do not know about wikidata or frwiki. But enwiki does not pull the birthday from wikidata, so I don't see the enwiki angle. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 16:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Oh I didn't know I have to adress the matter to the Fr wikipedia. [[User:AngelamL|AngelamL]] ([[User talk:AngelamL|talk]]) 16:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Yes. To be clear, every different-language Wikipedia is an independent project, each has its own, often different policies and guidelines, and none has any authority over any other. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.241.39.117|51.241.39.117]] ([[User talk:51.241.39.117|talk]]) 08:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Public publishing ==<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
Can someone help me publish my first article? [[User:TheConsultant360|TheConsultant360]] ([[User talk:TheConsultant360|talk]]) 16:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I've added the information so you can submit it. First, I see your name is "The Consultant"; if you work for this person, the Terms of Use require you to disclose that, [[WP:PAID]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hello, I am the owner of this username [[User:TheConsultant360|TheConsultant360]] ([[User talk:TheConsultant360|talk]]) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I just submitted the article, it's in the review queue, thank you so much for your help! [[User:TheConsultant360|TheConsultant360]] ([[User talk:TheConsultant360|talk]]) 16:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:TheConsultant360|TheConsultant360]] You have placed all the citations in a heap at the foot of the draft. [[WP:BLP|By policy]], citations for biographies of living people have to be placed inline, so at present the draft will rapidly be declined. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::yes this is what happened unfortunately, I am new to this , thank you for the clarification Mike [[User:TheConsultant360|TheConsultant360]] ([[User talk:TheConsultant360|talk]]) 16:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hello, TheConsultant360. {{HD/LTCF}} [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 16:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Replacing picture ==<br />
<br />
I tried editing one of your sites by replacing an incorrect picture with the correct one and all I ended up doing is removing the incorrect one. I cannot seem to add the new picture. Is there someone that can help me? Possibly step by step since this is my first time editing a picture.<br />
Thank you,<br />
Diana Gomez [[User:Sandyiego23|Sandyiego23]] ([[User talk:Sandyiego23|talk]]) 16:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Sandyiego23|Sandyiego23]] See my reply at [[WP:Teahouse#Replace_picture]]. Please don't ask in two places as this just wastes people's time. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hello, Sandyiego23. Please don't post the same question in multiple places. I see there is a reply at the Teahouse. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 16:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Template:Commons Autoconfirmed topicon ==<br />
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I have created the [[Template:Commons Autoconfirmed topicon]], however the image doesn't seem to render. I have [[:File:Commons Autoconfirmed.svg|checked it on Wikipedia and it is there]], so I don't know why it doesn't work. Can someone please help me? Thank you! <span style="border-radius:9pt;border:solid 2px #008;padding:1px;background-color:#bff">[[User:2003 LN6|<span style="color:#b00">2003</span>]] [[User:2003LN6/t|<span style="color:#0b0">LN</span>]][[User:2003LN6/c|<span style="color:#00b">6</span>]]</span> 16:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:2003 LN6|2003 LN6]], you specified the {{para|imagename}} parameter as <code>File:Commons Autoconfirmed.svg</code>, but apparently {{t|top icon}} automatically fills in the <code>File:</code> part. I've removed that and it seems to work now. [[User talk:Rummskartoffel|<span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel</span>]] 17:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you! [[User:2003 LN6|2003 LN6]] ([[User talk:2003 LN6|talk]]) 18:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Recent edits ==<br />
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Hello, on my phone, on the bottom of articles where you can see when the most recent edit was performed, if it was performed in less than 24 hours, there would be green behind the text, however, just a few minutes ago i noticed that the background it now blue, is there some fixing going on? [[User:NerdyLazar|NerdyLazar]] ([[User talk:NerdyLazar|talk]]) 20:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{ping|NerdyLazar}} Do you refer to a page like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marita_Kramer viewed in a browser on the phone? I see the colors in <span style="background-color:#00af89; color:white;">'''Last edited 6 minutes ago''' by Sporti</span>. It looks green to me. https://chir.ag/projects/name-that-color/#00AF89 calls it Persian Green <sup>approx.</sup>. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 08:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Oh it switched back to green [[User:NerdyLazar|NerdyLazar]] ([[User talk:NerdyLazar|talk]]) 12:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Templates ==<br />
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Hi, I haven't asked any questions to the help desk for almost two months now and, as I wrote on my user page, I plan to do no more than one a month and, above all, not to bother. In the [[bocconcini]] article, I'm undecided whether to leave the "More footnotes" template or add the "Refimprove" template: same for [[antipasto]]; which is the best of these two templates for both pages? [[User:JackkBrown|JacktheBrown]] ([[User talk:JackkBrown|talk]]) 23:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{tl|More citations needed}} is when there is a bunch of uncited content in general (a page-wide tag rather than adding tons of {{tl|cn}} tags to specific sentences). {{tl|More footnotes needed}} is when there is uncited content but general refs are present (a loose list rather than footnotes). The thinking is that the refs do support at least some of the content, and someone could check the refs and convert them to footnotes for the specific content they support rather than having to look up everything from scratch. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 03:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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= March 22 =<br />
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== Qumash ==<br />
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Please check my article. [[Draft:Qumash]] [[User:Bekejan|Bekejan]] ([[User talk:Bekejan|talk]]) 07:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:This does not look to be anywhere near meeting the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. Also, are you [[WP:COI|involved with this]] in some way?--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 08:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Bekejan|Bekejan]], if this "humorous information project" is, as you say, not commercial, is it charitable or what? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 08:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Abusive comment left in edit notes ==<br />
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Hi. There's an issue with recent edits to the Cotham School wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cotham_School&action=history. A user has deleted a paragraph on the page (which isn't the issue) and has left an abusive comment in the edits. You can see that the abusive comment was their main goal because they made the edit, then reverted it, then made it again because they'd made a typo in their original edit comment (fowl > foul). <br />
I don't know who inserted the original paragraph, don't know who deleted it, don't know if it was correct or not. But surely editors aren't allowed to leave derogatory comments on the edit history? [[User:BPstokelodge|BPstokelodge]] ([[User talk:BPstokelodge|talk]]) 09:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:I've seen far worse derogatory comments than that. It's actually pretty mild. It is not uncommon for a user to repeat an edit to leave or correct an edit summary. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:BPstokelodge|BPstokelodge]] [[Special:Contributions/BPstokelodge|Your own contributions]] show that you have never added an edit summary. Please do so, since these help explain to other editors why you have made an addition or removal. See [[WP:EDITSUMMARY]]. I agree with 331dot that the edit summaries in question were not worth worrying about. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 11:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Not Referenced Fake Story / Fabricated Characters ? ==<br />
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The isbn is faked not linking.<br />
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[[Yuen_Kay-shan]]<br />
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Although representations are possible and complimentary.. [[User:Heartmaybe|Heartmaybe]] ([[User talk:Heartmaybe|talk]]) 12:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Heartmaybe|Heartmaybe]] The only ISBN I can see on [[Yuen Kay-shan|that article's]] references is 1892515032 which is [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=isbn:1892515032 in Google books]. Can you clarify what you think is the problem with this? [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Apologies, after two clicks the web page of the google book loaded [[User:Heartmaybe|Heartmaybe]] ([[User talk:Heartmaybe|talk]]) 16:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia Article Section Heading "Capitalisation" == <br />
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Hello! Sorry to bother you guys! I have checked the "frenquently Asked Questions" section, but I can only seem to find the general article on "Capitalisation", i.e. [[Capitalization]]<br />
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I need a link that I can quote for an editor's page indicating how section titles in Wikipedia articles should be capitalised. I have seen a number of people assert that only the first word of a section title should begin with a capital, i.e. "===Longest connections strategy===", and not ""===Longest Connections Strategy==="". However, I have never been able to pin-point the actual Wikipedia policy which states that this rule exists. This "Capitalisation" issue has been raised in a Wikipedia article talk forum that I am working on at the moment [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ticket_to_Ride_(board_game)]. I told them I would ask this "help desk" forum for a link to the relevent policy.<br />
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Can you please help us? [[User:SMargan|SMargan]] ([[User talk:SMargan|talk]]) 12:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:SMargan|SMargan]], [[MOS:SECTIONCAPS]]. Best,<span id="Usedtobecool:1711109746591:WikipediaFTTCLNHelp_desk" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 12:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:@[[User:SMargan|SMargan]] The easiest way to find such advice in the search system is to prefix your search term with "WP:" so that the system will look in the correct [[WP:NAMESPACE|namespace]]. Hence instead of reaching [[Capitalization]] in article space you would have reached [[WP:Capitalization]] where the advice you needed is located. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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::Thanks for the assistance that both of you have given me. It has been invaluable.[[User:SMargan|SMargan]] ([[User talk:SMargan|talk]]) 13:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== fake disambiguation page ==<br />
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[[Nancy (given name)]] is a fake disambiguation page. If its an article about the name we probably shouldn't be listing everyone with that name, right? Those belong in [[Nancy#People]] (if they belong anywhere, a link that lists all articles starting with Nancy would make more sense). [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 13:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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Same problem over at [[Anna_(name)#People]]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 13:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] I think that both the articles are supposed to be [[WP:PEOPLELIST]]s, where each has a section at the top giving some background about the use of the name. [[Nancy]] is a [[WP:DAB|disambiguation page]] and includes lots of topics which are not given names of people, e.g. [[Nancy, France]] and [[Jean-Luc Nancy]], where the name is a surname, not a [[given name]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== New Entry for Photographer Susan Wood ==<br />
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Hello. Susan Wood is a published photographer, about to turn 92. Here's her author page on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B07KPLVCR6/about<br />
There are many more references. Who would be an appropriate person to add her information to wikipedia? Thank you so much. Margery [[User:Margie NYC|Margie NYC]] ([[User talk:Margie NYC|talk]]) 14:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/sep/28/the-high-fliers-club-how-susan-wood-captured-the-original-rebel-girls Here] is a good source. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 14:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[https://www.businessinsider.nl/susan-wood-photos-iconic-women-2018-10?international=true&r=US Here] is another. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 14:47, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/susan-wood-portraits/index.html Here]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 14:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/susan-wood-from-easy-rider-s-difficult-shoot-to-clicking-with-john-and-yoko-1.1682358 And here]. I believe she meets [[WP:GNG]]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 14:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hi [[User:Margie NYC|Margie NYC]] and welcome. You could ask at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red]]. Before writing an article it is necessary to check that the subject is [[Wikipedia:Notable]], which usually means finding coverage in reliable sources which are independent of the subject. The links above are a good start. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 14:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::They have a photographers section too, ([[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Photographers]],) so you can add her to the list there, and include some of the sources to help out whoever wants to make the page. [[User:Shaws username|<span style="background-color:#f28305; color:#110094; font-family:Courier new; font-weight: bold">Shaws&nbsp;username</span>]]&nbsp;.&nbsp;[[User talk:Shaws username|<span style="font-family:Courier new">talk</span>]]&nbsp;. 14:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::There used to be [[Draft:Susan Wood|a draft]] but it was deleted. I have asked if it [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#Draft:Susan_Wood can be undeleted]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 15:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::You are so helpful. Thank you so much. I believe she qualifies as Wikipedia:Notable. I will add her to the photographer's list, and add sources. If the draft can be undeleted, that would be great. Then additions/corrections can start to be added. I really appreciate your help! [[User:Margie NYC|Margie NYC]] ([[User talk:Margie NYC|talk]]) 15:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Hi. This is my first time adding anything to Wikipedia. I added Susan Wood to the American Photographers section of Women in Red, but it turned blue, not red, so I hope I don't get booted out. Any other tips are so appreciated! [[User:Margie NYC|Margie NYC]] ([[User talk:Margie NYC|talk]]) 15:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I created the article here [[Susan Wood (photographer)]] you are free to expand and improve it. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 16:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Wonderful!!! Thank you so much!! [[User:Margie NYC|Margie NYC]] ([[User talk:Margie NYC|talk]]) 16:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Idealogical Bias? ==<br />
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When reading some articles, it is very clear there is an idealogical, most specifically a political, bias. Wiki says that there is no centralized editing, but who has the final say in editing? If I wanted to edit someone else's page to be more 'fair' in its political bias, I imagine someone will come along behind me and reverse my edit, resulting in a never-ending edit war. How is this handled? I believe Wiki pages should be honest and fair in their content so as to not rewrite or spin history. I can cite some examples of the idealogical/political bias if needed. [[Special:Contributions/70.116.118.94|70.116.118.94]] ([[User talk:70.116.118.94|talk]]) 15:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Please cite some examples. We handle this by [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|talking a lot]] and sometimes requesting [[WP:3O|input]] from the wider [[WP:RFC|community]]. Also see [[User:Guy Macon/Yes. We are biased.]]. [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 15:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Umm, "edit someone else's page"? One's user page sort of belongs to the associated user, with limits. But article pages don't belong to anyone, so it doesn't mean anything to write "Edit someone else's page". [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 15:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:No-one has "the final say" on any article. Every article is in a sense unfinished, because more relevant information might emerge about its subject; its contents is agreed and if appropriate modified by ongoing processes of applying the [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|bold, revert, discuss cycle]] and reaching [[WP:Consensus|consensus]], which can be used to correct any noticed bias.<br />
:Note, however, that idealogical and political biases are subjective, so people with different worldviews can sincerely disagree about them. Generally, Wikipedia strives to present every subject using a [[WP:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and aims for [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]] from [[WP:reliable sources|reliable sources]], not '[[Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth|truth]].' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.241.39.117|51.241.39.117]] ([[User talk:51.241.39.117|talk]]) 17:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== how to make a wiki page for someone? ==<br />
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I'm trying to make a wiki page for someone [[User:JDHILLMAN6262|JDHILLMAN6262]] ([[User talk:JDHILLMAN6262|talk]]) 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:See [[Help:Your first article]] [[User:Polygnotus|Polygnotus]] ([[User talk:Polygnotus|talk]]) 15:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Userpage display title ==<br />
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Hello, Will My userpage display title work with Lower case letters? if it works give me an example! thanks [[User:MAL MALDIVE|<span style="background-color:#002B3C; padding: 2px 5px 1px 5px"><span style="color:white">𝕸𝖆𝖑 𝕸𝖆𝖑𝖉𝖎𝖛𝖊</span>]] [[User:MAL MALDIVE|MAL MALDIVE]] ([[User talk:MAL MALDIVE|talk]]) 17:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:MAL MALDIVE|MAL MALDIVE]] No, I don't think so. I edited your Userpage in the displaytitle part to change it to "Mal Maldive" or "Mal maldive" or "mal maldive" and in each case on preview got an error message saying that this wouldn't work "as it is not equivalent to the actual title". The error message directed me to [[WP:DISPLAYTITLE]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Oh! Ok then. {{happy face}} [[User:MAL MALDIVE|MAL MALDIVE]] ([[User talk:MAL MALDIVE|talk]]) 17:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::{{ping|MAL MALDIVE}} It's possible to get the same effect with <code>text-transform: lowercase</code>. This works: <code><nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:<span style="color:#AAA9AD; font-weight:bold; font-family:Brush Script MT;">User:M<span style="text-transform: lowercase;">AL</span> M<span style="text-transform: lowercase;">ALDIVE</span></span>}}</nowiki></code>. Only use it in your own userspace and accept that you may miss pings if users try to type the username on your user page instead of copy-pasting it. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 17:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::oh ok {{happy face}} [[User:MAL MALDIVE|MAL MALDIVE]] ([[User talk:MAL MALDIVE|talk]]) 18:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Citing a radio programme whose URL will only last for a short time ==<br />
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I need to cite a segment of a BBC World Service programme from 16 Mar 2024, which will only remain available via the Web for another 23 days. The programme is currently available at:<br />
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172z37rvf2h7m5<br />
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How do I do this?<br />
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Thanks [[User:Misha Wolf|Misha Wolf]] ([[User talk:Misha Wolf|talk]]) 17:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Inclusion of presidents of an organization ==<br />
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It seems very common to have a listing of presidents or heads in the Wikipedia article about an organization. For example, [[National Organization for Women]], [[John Birch Society]], [[Argentine Olympic Committee]], [[Football Federation of Belarus]], [[Italian-American National Union]], etc etc. Another user is insisting on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Association_for_Mormon_Letters#List_of_presidents removing] a list of presidents that has been in an article for years, despite how common this seems to be. Is this covered by any guideline or manual of style? [[User:Counterfeit Purses|Counterfeit Purses]] ([[User talk:Counterfeit Purses|talk]]) 18:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:As always, the first question to ask is to what extent independent WP:RS consider it significant. That's how we determine the merits of including content in general. We don't have guidelines for applying standard practice to every specific question. That would be both unnecessary, and impossible. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 18:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] If I felt very strongly about the article in question, I'm sure I could find reliable sources that mention who the president is, but I doubt I could find significant coverage for the list as a whole, for this or almost any other article. It seems odd to me that these lists appear to be almost standard in articles about organizations but can be removed if anyone decides they don't like it. [[User:Counterfeit Purses|Counterfeit Purses]] ([[User talk:Counterfeit Purses|talk]]) 19:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Redirect ==<br />
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I am trying to remove the page link redirect for 'verticalscope'. I work for VerticalScope and we are not owned by Torstar. I created a page for VerticalScope and removed the redirect link, but it appears they were undone right away. Can you assist please? [[User:Msalernovscope|Msalernovscope]] ([[User talk:Msalernovscope|talk]]) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== how todit/add info to Alexis M Herman's profile for accuracy. ==<br />
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the Alexis Herman profile box the article lists Kathryn O. Higgins as Deputy Secretary but omits Dr. Edward B. Montgomery who held the Deputy position 2000-2001. Higgins served 1997-1999 [[User:Curtainrriaw|Curtainrriaw]] ([[User talk:Curtainrriaw|talk]]) 19:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Article Issue ==<br />
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Hi, I wanted to ask something. I have an article that I want to upload but when I go to create it, it says that it has been deleted a number of times. The article is just a battle I wanted to add, and it is not anything bad. Shall I upload it anyway or not? [[User:TakuyaYagami|TakuyaYagami]] ([[User talk:TakuyaYagami|talk]]) 19:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TakuyaYagami|TakuyaYagami]] this would depend on the article in question. An article may have been deleted for reasons unrelated to [[WP:N|notability]]. What article are you trying to create? If you are unsure whether the topic should be included in English Wikipedia, you can start it as a [[WP:Draft|draft]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lootgoblin3033&diff=1214763457User talk:Lootgoblin30332024-03-21T00:39:06Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been rejected (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:O11ieG|O11ieG]] (March 21) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #F99; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission has been rejected. If you have further questions, you can ask at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:O11ieG '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help]].<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason<!-- pluralize "reason" --><!--empty--> left by Sungodtemple was: This submission is [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia]].<!--<br />
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{{clear}}<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC reject--><br />
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{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Lootgoblin3033'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:O11ieG&diff=1214763455Draft:O11ieG2024-03-21T00:39:06Z<p>Sungodtemple: Rejecting submission: e - Topic is contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|e|u=Lootgoblin3033|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240321003906|reject=yes|ts=20240321003815}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{Draft topics|stem}}<br />
{{AfC topic|blp}}<br />
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The man, the myth, the legend<br />
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== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Five_Star_Chemicals&diff=1214587665Draft:Five Star Chemicals2024-03-19T21:44:44Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: corp - Submission is about a company or organization not yet shown to meet notability guidelines and adv - Submission reads like an advertisement (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|corp|u=Driftybiscuit|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240319214444|reason2=adv|ts=20240319210450}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{AFC comment|1=All except references #17 and #18 are [[WP:IS|non-independent]]. One does not mention Five Star Chemicals, and the other only contains a passing mention. Please also avoid [[WP:LINKROT|bare URL]]s. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
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{{Short description|Chemical cleaning product company}}<br />
{{Draft topics|food-and-drink|chemistry}}<br />
{{AfC topic|org}}<br />
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{{Stub}}<br />
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'''Five Star Chemicals & Supply, LLC''', commonly shortened to '''Five Star Chemicals''', is an American chemical company providing products for brewing, distilling, wine making, and cider making industries. It was established in 1980 and is currently based in [[Arvada, Colorado]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/about-us</ref><ref>https://purposebuiltbrands.com/brands#fivestar</ref><ref>https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87375569&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch</ref><br />
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It is currently owned by PurposeBuilt Brands.<ref>https://purposebuiltbrands.com/brands#fivestar</ref><br />
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== Brands ==<br />
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Five Star Chemicals owns a number of branded products that are widely used both in beverage industries, and [[Homebrewing|hobbyist communities]].<br />
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'''Acid #5''' is an [[Acid|acidic]] cleaner and stainless steel [[Passivation (chemistry)|passivation]] agent.<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/acid-5</ref> Its active ingredients include [[nitric acid]] and [[phosphoric acid]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/446</ref><br />
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'''Acid #6''' is an acidic detergent suitable for usage in high [[carbon dioxide]] environments.<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/acid-6</ref> Similarly to Acid #5, its active ingredients include nitric acid and phosphoric acid, but are in different proportions.<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/440</ref><br />
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'''IO-Star''' is a low-foaming sanitizer.<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/io-star</ref> Its active ingredients include [[iodine]] and [[hydriodic acid]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/458</ref><br />
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'''PBW''', or '''Powdered Brewery Wash''', is a trademarked and patented<ref>https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77591540&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch</ref> [[Base (chemistry)|alkaline]] cleaner. Its active ingredients include disodium carbonate, [[sodium percarbonate]], [[sodium metasilicate]], and [[sodium lauryl sulphate]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/1572</ref> It is offered in powdered, tablet, and liquid forms.<br />
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'''Saniclean''' is a trademarked low-foaming acidic cleaner.<ref>https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77591588&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch</ref><ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/saniclean</ref><br />
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'''Star San''' is a trademarked<ref>https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77591616&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch</ref> food-safe acidic foaming sanitizer that does not require rinsing. Its active ingredients include [[phosphoric acid]] and [[benzenesulfonic acid]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/455</ref> It is widely used in both professional and hobbyist settings.<ref>https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7e8pn/how-to-make-hard-cider-at-home-diy</ref><ref>https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/brew-beer-at-home/</ref><br />
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'''Star-Xene''' is a [[Chlorine|chlorine]]-based disinfectant. Its active ingredient is [[Sodium chlorite|sodium chlorite]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/476</ref> It is intended to be mixed with [[Citric acid|citric acid]] to produce [[Chlorine dioxide|chlorine dioxide]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/star-xene</ref><br />
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'''Super CIP''' is a low-foaming alkaline cleaner intended for protein stain removal.<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/super-cip</ref> Its active ingredients include [[Sodium carbonate|sodium carbonate]], [[Sodium hydroxide|sodium hydroxide]], and [[Trichloroisocyanuric acid|trichloroisocyanuric acid]].<ref>https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/404</ref><br />
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== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Driftybiscuit&diff=1214587664User talk:Driftybiscuit2024-03-19T21:44:44Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
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Thanks for uploading or contributing to '''[[:File:Christmas Saves The Year.jpg]]'''. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under [[WP:NFCC|non-free content criteria]], but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia is acceptable. Please go to [[:File:Christmas Saves The Year.jpg|the file description page]], and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|non-free rationale]].<br />
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==2021 Boulder shooting source question==<br />
Hi - I'm struggling to find the section of [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/22/us/boulder-colorado-shooting this source] that supports the claim that there was a separate unrelated shooting in another part of Boulder. The [[2021 Boulder shooting]] article's edit history is too convoluted to figure this out without wasting time, but ''I think'' you were the one that added that part of the article and was just wondering if you could point me to the text I should be looking for - because of the news coverage of this event, I'm not able to find coverage of an unrelated incident because the mass shooting is obviously overshadowing any results for such a query. If you weren't the one that added that, please ignore this! Thanks, [[User:Cran32|<span style="color:grey;">'''Cran32'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Cran32|<span style="color:#FFD400;">'''''talk'''''</span>]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Cran32|<span style="color:#FFD400;">'''''contributions'''''</span>]]) 02:54, 23 March 2021 (UTC).<br />
: Hey, no problem. I was the one who added that, and I'm trying to find the section in that article. There definitely was something. I'll track it down. [[User:Driftybiscuit|Driftybiscuit]] ([[User talk:Driftybiscuit#top|talk]])<br />
: The section appears to have been edited out in the source. You can see the original material here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210323010145/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/22/us/boulder-colorado-shooting/the-shots-are-getting-closer-witnesses-recounted-moments-of-terror-inside-and-outside-the-store where it says "The Boulder Police Department also sent out an emergency alert for another area of town, asking residents there to shelter in place while they investigated a report of an “armed, dangerous individual.”" They cite a tweet from Boulder Police Department: https://twitter.com/boulderpolice/status/1374136465358209027. However this tweet doesn't really corroborate it, which might be why the removed the claim. I have heard it from other sources though. I will see if I can dig something else up. [[User:Driftybiscuit|Driftybiscuit]] ([[User talk:Driftybiscuit#top|talk]])<br />
:: Sorry for the late response; thank you for your diligent efforts! [[User:Cran32|<span style="color:grey;">'''Cran32'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Cran32|<span style="color:#FFD400;">'''''talk'''''</span>]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Cran32|<span style="color:#FFD400;">'''''contributions'''''</span>]]) 13:23, 23 March 2021 (UTC).<br />
::: Thank you for letting me know! [[User:Driftybiscuit|Driftybiscuit]] ([[User talk:Driftybiscuit#top|talk]]) 00:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Five Star Chemicals|Five Star Chemicals]] (March 19) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by Sungodtemple were:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This draft's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are: <br /><br />
* [[WP:ORGDEPTH|''in-depth'']] (not just brief mentions about the subject or routine announcements)<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:No original research#Secondary|''secondary'']]<br />
* [[WP:ORGIND|''strictly independent'']] of the subject <br /><br />
Make sure you add references that meet ''all four'' of these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission appears to [[WP:Spam#Advertisements masquerading as articles|read more like an advertisement]] than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and should refer to a range of [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent, reliable, published sources]], not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability policy]] and the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=All except references #17 and #18 are [[WP:IS|non-independent]]. One does not mention Five Star Chemicals, and the other only contains a passing mention. Please also avoid [[WP:LINKROT|bare URL]]s.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Five Star Chemicals]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
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<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
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[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2601:18C:D07F:92B0:ADEA:937D:7EC8:BE08&diff=1214587250User talk:2601:18C:D07F:92B0:ADEA:937D:7EC8:BE082024-03-19T21:41:40Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Estévan Monserrate|Estévan Monserrate]] (March 19) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=We're sorry, but we cannot accept blank submissions. If in fact you did include text within the article, but it isn't showing, please make sure that any extra text above your entry is removed, as it may be causing it to hide and not be shown to the reviewer.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
--> Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
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[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Est%C3%A9van_Monserrate&diff=1214587249Draft:Estévan Monserrate2024-03-19T21:41:39Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: blank - Submission is blank (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|blank|u=2601:18C:D07F:92B0:ADEA:937D:7EC8:BE08|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240319214139|ts=20240319203915}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{Short description|Tubi Actor}}<br />
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== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FNG_Nderitu&diff=1214524788User talk:FNG Nderitu2024-03-19T13:50:50Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Kalenjin Incompetence|Kalenjin Incompetence]] (March 19) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
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{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not suitable for Wikipedia. Please read [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|"What Wikipedia is not"]] for more information.|}}<!--<br />
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{{divbox|blue|3=Fails [[WP:NOR]]}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
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[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Kalenjin_incompetence&diff=1214524787Draft:Kalenjin incompetence2024-03-19T13:50:50Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: not - Submission fails Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{AFC submission|d|not|u=FNG Nderitu|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240319135050|ts=20240319121712}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
<br />
{{AFC comment|1=Fails [[WP:NOR]] [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{{Short description|Kenyan Political Discourse}}<br />
{{Draft topics|africa}}<br />
{{AfC topic|soc}}<br />
<br />
Kalenjin incompetence refers to a phenomenon observed in Kenyan socio-politics whereby any time a leader from the supposed ethnicity takes the helms of power, there is a general decline in public service and development. One example of this was the leadership of Kenya's second president Daniel Toroitich Arap Moi, when the country experienced the worst public service and developmental declines. The only other leader from the ethnic group is the current president whose leadership has been noted for its ineffectiveness in managing the country's affairs. Among the biggest concerns include appointing people to positions of power based on Kalenjin ethnicity even when they are unqualified, a pitifully declining currency, overtaxation, and general economic mismanagement.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}<br />
* [https://asq.africa.ufl.edu/adar_munyae_winter01/ Human Rights Abuse in Kenya under Daniel Arap Moi, 1978-2001]<br />
* [https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/tea/oped/comment/the-ruto-regime-rekindles-painful-moi-era-memories-4304250 The Ruto regime rekindles painful Moi-era memories]<br />
* [https://www.africabib.org/rec.php?RID=146810856 'Paranoia': Anatomy of a Dictatorship in Kenya]<br />
* [https://twitter.com/CollinceBey/status/1728813762101018842 ]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:75.155.41.177&diff=1214392823User talk:75.155.41.1772024-03-18T17:53:28Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Sear (Electronic hard dance music artist)|Sear (Electronic hard dance music artist)]] (March 18) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This submission's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]—that is, they do not show ''significant'' coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in ''published'', [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']], [[Wikipedia:No_original_research#Secondary|''secondary'']] sources that are ''[[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]]'' of the subject (see the [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)|guidelines on the notability of music-related topics]]). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|technical help]] and learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=The word "emerging" indicates that Sear isn't notable yet. All the sources provided are [[WP:IS|non-independent]].}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Sear (Electronic hard dance music artist)]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Sear_(Electronic_hard_dance_music_artist) '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Sear_(Electronic_hard_dance_music_artist) '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''75.155.41.177'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Sear_(Electronic_hard_dance_music_artist)&diff=1214392822Draft:Sear (Electronic hard dance music artist)2024-03-18T17:53:28Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: music - Submission is about a musician or musical work not yet shown to meet notability guidelines (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{AFC submission|d|music|u=75.155.41.177|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240318175328|ts=20240318165331}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
<br />
{{AFC comment|1=The word "emerging" indicates that Sear isn't notable yet. All the sources provided are [[WP:IS|non-independent]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{{Short description|Electronic dance music artist}}<br />
{{Draft topics|music}}<br />
{{AfC topic|blp}}<br />
<br />
{{Infobox musical artist<br />
| background = solo_singer <!-- or group_or_band, depending on the artist --><br />
| name = <!-- Artist's name -->Sear<br />
| image = <!-- Artist's image (optional) --><br />
| caption = <!-- Caption for the image (optional) --><br />
| birth_name = <!-- Artist's birth name (if applicable) --><br />
| alias = <!-- Any aliases or stage names used by the artist --><br />
| birth_date = <!-- Artist's date of birth (if available) --><br />
| birth_place = <!-- Artist's place of birth (if available) --><br />
| origin = <!-- Artist's origin or current location --><br />
| genre = [[Electronic dance music]], [[Hard dance]], <!-- Additional genres --><br />
| occupation = <!-- Artist's occupation(s) --><br />
| years_active = <!-- Years active in the music industry --><br />
| label = <!-- Record label(s) the artist is signed to -->Muon Records<br />
| website = <!-- Artist's official website (if available) -->searmusic.mydurable.com<br />
| module = <!-- Additional modules (e.g., social media links, discography) --><br />
| associated_acts = <!-- Any associated acts or collaborations --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''Sear''' is an emerging electronic hard dance music artist.<br />
<br />
== Career ==<br />
The artist has just released his debut album, 'Remember The Summer', on March 14, 2024.<br />
<br />
== Discography ==<br />
<br />
# Sear - My Headphone Summer (2024)<br />
# Sear - Remember The Summer (2024)<br />
# Sear - Starless Summer (Upcoming 3.28.2024<ref>{{Cite web |title=A New Electronic Dance Artist Emerges: Sear |url=https://searmusic.mydurable.com/ |access-date=2024-03-18 |website=searmusic.mydurable.com |language=en}}</ref>)<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
[https://searmusic.mydurable.com/ <nowiki>[Artist's Official Website]</nowiki>]<br />
<br />
[https://open.spotify.com/artist/2V6VSp7AUCs9oHGfgUApHe <nowiki>[Artist's Spotify Profile]</nowiki>]<br />
<br />
[https://music.apple.com/us/artist/sear/1637265538 <nowiki>[Artist's Apple Music Profile]</nowiki>]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:115.160.241.116&diff=1214353202User talk:115.160.241.1162024-03-18T12:56:08Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Myassignment Help|Myassignment Help]] (November 14) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by 511KeV was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
--> Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Myassignment Help]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned Drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Myassignment_Help '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:511KeV&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Myassignment_Help '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
<small><sub><span style="color:grey;">signed, </span></sub></small>[[User:511KeV|<span style="font-family:sans-serif; color:#FF1100; text-shadow:.2em .2em .4em #AfAfB1;">'''511KeV'''</span>]] [[User_talk:511KeV|<sup> '' (talk)''</sup>]] 06:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''115.160.241.116'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! <small><sub><span style="color:grey;">signed, </span></sub></small>[[User:511KeV|<span style="font-family:sans-serif; color:#FF1100; text-shadow:.2em .2em .4em #AfAfB1;">'''511KeV'''</span>]] [[User_talk:511KeV|<sup> '' (talk)''</sup>]] 06:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Myassignment Help|Myassignment Help]] (November 14) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by LittlePuppers were:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This draft's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are: <br /><br />
* ''[[WP:Notability#General notability guideline|in-depth]]'' (not just passing mentions about the subject)<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:No original research#Secondary|''secondary'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|''independent'']] of the subject <br /><br />
Make sure you add references that meet these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission appears to [[WP:Spam#Advertisements masquerading as articles|read more like an advertisement]] than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and should refer to a range of [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent, reliable, published sources]], not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability policy]] and the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=A few issues: (1), most of the sources are either passing mentions, press releases, or automatically generated content. (2), part of the article appears to be duplicated (two history sections), and the content contradicts each other. (3), this reads more like a PR piece than an encyclopedia article.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Myassignment Help]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned Drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Myassignment_Help '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LittlePuppers&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Myassignment_Help '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:LittlePuppers|LittlePuppers]] ([[User talk:LittlePuppers|talk]]) 06:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
== December 2023 ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello, I'm [[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]]. I wanted to let you know that I removed one or more external links you added&nbsp;to [[:International student]] because they seemed inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Materialscientist|my talk page]] or take a look at our [[Wikipedia:External links|guidelines]] about links. Thank you. [[Category:User talk pages with Uw-spam1 notices|{{PAGENAME}}]]<!-- Template:Huggle/warn-spam-1 --> <!-- Template:uw-spam1 -->[[User:Materialscientist|Materialscientist]] ([[User talk:Materialscientist|talk]]) 06:12, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{Block indent|''If this is a [[Network address translation|shared IP address]], and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|creating an account]] for yourself or [[Special:UserLogin|logging in with an existing account]] so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.''}}<!-- Template:Shared IP advice --><br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Myassignmenthelp|Myassignmenthelp]] (March 18) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by Sungodtemple were:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This draft's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are: <br /><br />
* ''[[WP:Notability#General notability guideline|in-depth]]'' (not just passing mentions about the subject)<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:No original research#Secondary|''secondary'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|''independent'']] of the subject <br /><br />
Make sure you add references that meet these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission appears to [[WP:Spam#Advertisements masquerading as articles|read more like an advertisement]] than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and should refer to a range of [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent, reliable, published sources]], not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability policy]] and the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=All the articles are clearly [[WP:IS|non-independent]], aka articles paid for by the website.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Myassignmenthelp]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Myassignmenthelp '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Myassignmenthelp '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--></div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Grn621&diff=1214287045User talk:Grn6212024-03-18T01:28:50Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
<br />
'''Welcome!'''<br />
<br />
Hello, Grn621, and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia! Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Grn621|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as [[G reddappa naidu]], may not conform to some of Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:List of policies|guidelines]], and may soon be deleted. <br />
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==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:G reddappa naidu]]==<br />
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A tag has been placed on [[:G reddappa naidu]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#A7|section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the [[WP:CSD#Articles|criteria for speedy deletion]], such articles may be deleted at any time. Please [[Wikipedia:Notability|see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable]]. <br />
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If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit '''[[Talk:G reddappa naidu|the page's talk page directly]]''' to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, you can contact [[:Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles|one of these administrators]] to request that the administrator [[Wikipedia:Userfication#Userfication of deleted content|userfy]] the page or email a copy to you. <!-- Template:Db-notability-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> [[User:Roleplayer|'''<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#006400">role</span>''']][[User talk:Roleplayer|'''''<sup><em style="font-family:Verdana;color:#9ACD32">player</em></sup>''''']] 18:31, 12 March 2012 (UTC)<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy|Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy]] (March 18) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
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{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
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{{divbox|blue|3=Note that a political candidate is not automatically notable.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Reddappagari_Madhavi_Reddy '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Reddappagari_Madhavi_Reddy '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
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[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
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| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Grn621'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Reddappagari_Madhavi_Reddy&diff=1214287047Draft:Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy2024-03-18T01:28:49Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: v - Submission is improperly sourced (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|v|u=Grn621|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240318012849|ts=20240318010111}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
{{AFC submission|d|blank|u=Grn621|ns=118|decliner=Jamiebuba|declinets=20240318002956|small=yes|ts=20240318002243}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{AFC comment|1=Note that a political candidate is not automatically notable. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
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{{Short description|Indian politician}}<br />
{{Draft topics|biography|south-asia}}<br />
{{AfC topic|blp}}<br />
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{{Use Indian English|date=August 2021}}<br />
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2021}}<br />
{{Infobox officeholder<br />
| name = Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy<br />
| image = Reddappagari_Madhavi_Reddy.png<br />
| birth_date = {{Birth date|df=yes|1976|06|09}}<br />
| birth_place = Venkatramapuram, [[Chittoor]], [[Madras Presidency]], [[British India]]{{ref label|a|a}}<br />
| bodyclass = <br />
| office = <br />
| constituency = [[Kadapa (Assembly constituency)|Kadapa]]<br />
| party = [[Telugu Desam Party]]<br/>(2014 - )<br />
}}<br />
Reddappagari Madhavi Reddy is entrepreneur from Andhra Pradesh turned in to politician from TDP party. She is contesting as MLA from TDP party in 2024.<br />
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==Political career==<br />
She chosen as MLA candidate from TDP party in 2024.<br />
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==Personal life==<br />
Madhavi Reddy is married to Srinivasa Reddy Reddeppagari.<br />
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==References==<br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hellobutt29034&diff=1214286886User talk:Hellobutt290342024-03-18T01:27:22Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been rejected (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Are large cuts cost a week?|Are large cuts cost a week?]] (March 18) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #F99; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission has been rejected. If you have further questions, you can ask at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Are_large_cuts_cost_a_week%3F '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help]].<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason<!-- pluralize "reason" --><!--empty--> left by Sungodtemple was: This submission is [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia]].<!--<br />
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--><br />
{{clear}}<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC reject--><br />
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{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Hellobutt29034'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1214014392User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-16T13:48:46Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from Brie Cheesy Bites (22:55, 15 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
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I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
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Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
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I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
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Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
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Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
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<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
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This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
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Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
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Nice to e-meet you.<br />
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I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
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Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
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I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] (14:18, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Which tools should I use to determine if an edit is vandalism so I can revert only if it was determined to be vandalism? --[[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 14:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] is editing deliberately intended to interfere with the encyclopedia. For example, [[Special:Diff/1212769810|this revert]] was likely unjustified since the editor was adding sourced material. Meanwhile [[Special:Diff/1212769194|this revert]] was justified since the editor was trying to add promotional content to the article, obstructing the creation of an encyclopedia.<br />
:There are no 'tools' (read: AI) that can 100% determine if an edit is vandalism, but you can use a filtered view of [[Special:RecentChanges]], for example using the tag #possible vandalism. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Okay, thanks [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]]! [[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 20:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] (23:45, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Sahrul Gunawan<br />
萨鲁尔*古纳万<br />
Born 16 August 2000 (age 23)<br />
Kp.Mariuk.RT02,RW02.Palabuhanratu, Indonesia<br />
Other names Esther Sa<br />
Alma mater Al-balruni alumni<br />
Occupations <br />
Actresssinger<br />
Years active 2016–present<br />
Agent Huace Film & TV<br />
Height 169 cm (5 ft 7 in)<br />
Musical career<br />
Genres <br />
C-pop<br />
Instrument(s) Vocals<br />
Years active 2020–2021<br />
Labels <br />
iQIYI[a]<br />
Formerly of <br />
THE9<br />
Template:Infobox Indonesia --[[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] ([[User talk:Sahrul guanawan|talk]]) 23:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] on [[Copenhagen Fashion Week]] (20:37, 12 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, do we use oxford commas in articles? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 20:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] according to [[WP:Oxford comma]], it is used sometimes and left out at other times. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I ==<br />
<br />
Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review|2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review]] is now '''no longer accepting new proposals'''. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship|RfA]]'s structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:<br />
<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 2: Add a reminder of civility norms at RfA|Proposal 2]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, provides for the addition of a text box at [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship]] reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3: Add three days of discussion before voting (trial)|Proposals 3]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3b: Make the first two days discussion-only (trial)|3b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Barkeep49}} and {{noping|Usedtobecool}}, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 4: Prohibit threaded discussion (trial)|Proposal 5]]''', initiated by {{noping|SilkTork}}, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6c: Provisional adminship via sortition (admin nomination)|Proposals 6c]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6d: Provisional adminship via sortition (criteria to be determined)|6d]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 7: Threaded General Comments|Proposal 7]]''', initiated by {{noping|Lee Vilenski}}, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 9b: Require links for claims of specific policy violations|Proposal 9b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Reaper Eternal}}, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 12c: Lower the high end of the bureaucrats' discretionary zone from 75% to 70%|Proposals 12c]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21: Reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21]]''', and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21b: Slightly reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21b]]''', initiated by {{noping|City of Silver}}, {{u|Ritchie333}}, and {{u|HouseBlaster}}, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 13: Admin elections|Proposal 13]]''', initiated by {{noping|Novem Lingaue}}, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 14: Suffrage requirements|Proposal 14]]''', initiated by {{noping|Kusma}}, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16: Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs|Proposals 16]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16c: Community recall process based on dewiki|16c]]''', initiated by {{noping|Thebiguglyalien}} and {{noping|Soni}}, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard|administrators' noticeboard]]; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16e: Allow the community to initiate recall RfBs|Proposal 16e]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 17: Have named Admins/crats to monitor infractions|Proposal 17]]''', initiated by {{noping|SchroCat}}, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 18: Normalize the RfB consensus requirements|Proposal 18]]''', initiated by {{noping|theleekycauldron}}, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 24: Provide better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process|Proposal 24]]''', initiated by {{noping|SportingFlyer}}, provides for a more robust alternate version of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll|optional candidate poll]].<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 25: Require nominees to be extended confirmed|Proposal 25]]''', initiated by {{noping|Femke}}, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 27: Introduce training/periodic retraining for admins|Proposal 27]]''', initiated by {{noping|WereSpielChequers}}, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 28: limiting multi-part questions|Proposal 28]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.<br />
<br />
To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals]]. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her), via:<br />
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[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 10:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<!-- Message sent by User:Theleekycauldron@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Mailing_list&oldid=1213660347 --><br />
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== Question from [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] (14:03, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Sungodtemple, many thanks for being ready to help.<br />
<br />
What else can I do to move a page which has a typo in its title?<br />
<br />
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Courturier_v_Hastie --[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 14:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] done. In the future, you can use the [[WP:RM|requested moves page]] to request a page move. Once you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]], you should be able to move most pages under the 'Tools' menu in the top right. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Many thanks, Sungodtemple! [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]] (15:54, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
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can I put a show link on there --[[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]] ([[User talk:Malebuw|talk]]) 15:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]], can you elaborate? Is this a [[WP:Wikilink|wikilink]] or [[WP:EL|external link]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Brie Cheesy Bites|Brie Cheesy Bites]] (22:55, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
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How do I edit? --[[User:Brie Cheesy Bites|Brie Cheesy Bites]] ([[User talk:Brie Cheesy Bites|talk]]) 22:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Brie Cheesy Bites|Brie Cheesy Bites]] see [[Help:Introduction]] for a tutorial on how to edit. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sainuddin ali|Sainuddin ali]] on [[Assistant commissioner of police]] (13:25, 16 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Sainuddin ali|Sainuddin ali]] ([[User talk:Sainuddin ali|talk]]) 13:25, 16 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1213905924User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-15T20:53:38Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from Malebuw (15:54, 15 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
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I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
<br />
I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
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Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
<br />
<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
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This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
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Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
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Nice to e-meet you.<br />
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I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
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Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
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I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] (14:18, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Which tools should I use to determine if an edit is vandalism so I can revert only if it was determined to be vandalism? --[[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 14:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] is editing deliberately intended to interfere with the encyclopedia. For example, [[Special:Diff/1212769810|this revert]] was likely unjustified since the editor was adding sourced material. Meanwhile [[Special:Diff/1212769194|this revert]] was justified since the editor was trying to add promotional content to the article, obstructing the creation of an encyclopedia.<br />
:There are no 'tools' (read: AI) that can 100% determine if an edit is vandalism, but you can use a filtered view of [[Special:RecentChanges]], for example using the tag #possible vandalism. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Okay, thanks [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]]! [[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 20:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] (23:45, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Sahrul Gunawan<br />
萨鲁尔*古纳万<br />
Born 16 August 2000 (age 23)<br />
Kp.Mariuk.RT02,RW02.Palabuhanratu, Indonesia<br />
Other names Esther Sa<br />
Alma mater Al-balruni alumni<br />
Occupations <br />
Actresssinger<br />
Years active 2016–present<br />
Agent Huace Film & TV<br />
Height 169 cm (5 ft 7 in)<br />
Musical career<br />
Genres <br />
C-pop<br />
Instrument(s) Vocals<br />
Years active 2020–2021<br />
Labels <br />
iQIYI[a]<br />
Formerly of <br />
THE9<br />
Template:Infobox Indonesia --[[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] ([[User talk:Sahrul guanawan|talk]]) 23:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] on [[Copenhagen Fashion Week]] (20:37, 12 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, do we use oxford commas in articles? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 20:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] according to [[WP:Oxford comma]], it is used sometimes and left out at other times. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I ==<br />
<br />
Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review|2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review]] is now '''no longer accepting new proposals'''. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship|RfA]]'s structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:<br />
<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 2: Add a reminder of civility norms at RfA|Proposal 2]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, provides for the addition of a text box at [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship]] reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3: Add three days of discussion before voting (trial)|Proposals 3]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3b: Make the first two days discussion-only (trial)|3b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Barkeep49}} and {{noping|Usedtobecool}}, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 4: Prohibit threaded discussion (trial)|Proposal 5]]''', initiated by {{noping|SilkTork}}, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6c: Provisional adminship via sortition (admin nomination)|Proposals 6c]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6d: Provisional adminship via sortition (criteria to be determined)|6d]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 7: Threaded General Comments|Proposal 7]]''', initiated by {{noping|Lee Vilenski}}, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 9b: Require links for claims of specific policy violations|Proposal 9b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Reaper Eternal}}, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 12c: Lower the high end of the bureaucrats' discretionary zone from 75% to 70%|Proposals 12c]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21: Reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21]]''', and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21b: Slightly reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21b]]''', initiated by {{noping|City of Silver}}, {{u|Ritchie333}}, and {{u|HouseBlaster}}, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 13: Admin elections|Proposal 13]]''', initiated by {{noping|Novem Lingaue}}, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 14: Suffrage requirements|Proposal 14]]''', initiated by {{noping|Kusma}}, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16: Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs|Proposals 16]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16c: Community recall process based on dewiki|16c]]''', initiated by {{noping|Thebiguglyalien}} and {{noping|Soni}}, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard|administrators' noticeboard]]; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16e: Allow the community to initiate recall RfBs|Proposal 16e]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 17: Have named Admins/crats to monitor infractions|Proposal 17]]''', initiated by {{noping|SchroCat}}, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 18: Normalize the RfB consensus requirements|Proposal 18]]''', initiated by {{noping|theleekycauldron}}, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 24: Provide better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process|Proposal 24]]''', initiated by {{noping|SportingFlyer}}, provides for a more robust alternate version of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll|optional candidate poll]].<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 25: Require nominees to be extended confirmed|Proposal 25]]''', initiated by {{noping|Femke}}, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 27: Introduce training/periodic retraining for admins|Proposal 27]]''', initiated by {{noping|WereSpielChequers}}, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 28: limiting multi-part questions|Proposal 28]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.<br />
<br />
To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals]]. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her), via:<br />
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[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 10:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<!-- Message sent by User:Theleekycauldron@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Mailing_list&oldid=1213660347 --><br />
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== Question from [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] (14:03, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Sungodtemple, many thanks for being ready to help.<br />
<br />
What else can I do to move a page which has a typo in its title?<br />
<br />
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Courturier_v_Hastie --[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 14:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] done. In the future, you can use the [[WP:RM|requested moves page]] to request a page move. Once you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]], you should be able to move most pages under the 'Tools' menu in the top right. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Many thanks, Sungodtemple! [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]] (15:54, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
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can I put a show link on there --[[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]] ([[User talk:Malebuw|talk]]) 15:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Malebuw|Malebuw]], can you elaborate? Is this a [[WP:Wikilink|wikilink]] or [[WP:EL|external link]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1213850951User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-15T14:11:52Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from Comparatum (14:03, 15 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
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I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
<br />
I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
<br />
<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
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This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
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Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
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Nice to e-meet you.<br />
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I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
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Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
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I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] (14:18, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Which tools should I use to determine if an edit is vandalism so I can revert only if it was determined to be vandalism? --[[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 14:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] is editing deliberately intended to interfere with the encyclopedia. For example, [[Special:Diff/1212769810|this revert]] was likely unjustified since the editor was adding sourced material. Meanwhile [[Special:Diff/1212769194|this revert]] was justified since the editor was trying to add promotional content to the article, obstructing the creation of an encyclopedia.<br />
:There are no 'tools' (read: AI) that can 100% determine if an edit is vandalism, but you can use a filtered view of [[Special:RecentChanges]], for example using the tag #possible vandalism. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Okay, thanks [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]]! [[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 20:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] (23:45, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Sahrul Gunawan<br />
萨鲁尔*古纳万<br />
Born 16 August 2000 (age 23)<br />
Kp.Mariuk.RT02,RW02.Palabuhanratu, Indonesia<br />
Other names Esther Sa<br />
Alma mater Al-balruni alumni<br />
Occupations <br />
Actresssinger<br />
Years active 2016–present<br />
Agent Huace Film & TV<br />
Height 169 cm (5 ft 7 in)<br />
Musical career<br />
Genres <br />
C-pop<br />
Instrument(s) Vocals<br />
Years active 2020–2021<br />
Labels <br />
iQIYI[a]<br />
Formerly of <br />
THE9<br />
Template:Infobox Indonesia --[[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] ([[User talk:Sahrul guanawan|talk]]) 23:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] on [[Copenhagen Fashion Week]] (20:37, 12 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, do we use oxford commas in articles? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 20:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] according to [[WP:Oxford comma]], it is used sometimes and left out at other times. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I ==<br />
<br />
Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review|2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review]] is now '''no longer accepting new proposals'''. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship|RfA]]'s structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:<br />
<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 2: Add a reminder of civility norms at RfA|Proposal 2]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, provides for the addition of a text box at [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship]] reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3: Add three days of discussion before voting (trial)|Proposals 3]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 3b: Make the first two days discussion-only (trial)|3b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Barkeep49}} and {{noping|Usedtobecool}}, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 4: Prohibit threaded discussion (trial)|Proposal 5]]''', initiated by {{noping|SilkTork}}, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6c: Provisional adminship via sortition (admin nomination)|Proposals 6c]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Phase_I#Proposal 6d: Provisional adminship via sortition (criteria to be determined)|6d]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 7: Threaded General Comments|Proposal 7]]''', initiated by {{noping|Lee Vilenski}}, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 9b: Require links for claims of specific policy violations|Proposal 9b]]''', initiated by {{noping|Reaper Eternal}}, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 12c: Lower the high end of the bureaucrats' discretionary zone from 75% to 70%|Proposals 12c]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21: Reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21]]''', and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 21b: Slightly reduce threshold of consensus at RfA|21b]]''', initiated by {{noping|City of Silver}}, {{u|Ritchie333}}, and {{u|HouseBlaster}}, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 13: Admin elections|Proposal 13]]''', initiated by {{noping|Novem Lingaue}}, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 14: Suffrage requirements|Proposal 14]]''', initiated by {{noping|Kusma}}, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16: Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs|Proposals 16]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16c: Community recall process based on dewiki|16c]]''', initiated by {{noping|Thebiguglyalien}} and {{noping|Soni}}, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard|administrators' noticeboard]]; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 16e: Allow the community to initiate recall RfBs|Proposal 16e]]''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 17: Have named Admins/crats to monitor infractions|Proposal 17]]''', initiated by {{noping|SchroCat}}, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 18: Normalize the RfB consensus requirements|Proposal 18]]''', initiated by {{noping|theleekycauldron}}, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 24: Provide better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process|Proposal 24]]''', initiated by {{noping|SportingFlyer}}, provides for a more robust alternate version of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll|optional candidate poll]].<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 25: Require nominees to be extended confirmed|Proposal 25]]''', initiated by {{noping|Femke}}, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 27: Introduce training/periodic retraining for admins|Proposal 27]]''', initiated by {{noping|WereSpielChequers}}, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.<br />
* '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I#Proposal 28: limiting multi-part questions|Proposal 28]]''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.<br />
<br />
To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals]]. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her), via:<br />
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[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 10:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<!-- Message sent by User:Theleekycauldron@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Mailing_list&oldid=1213660347 --><br />
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== Question from [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] (14:03, 15 March 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Hello Sungodtemple, many thanks for being ready to help.<br />
<br />
What else can I do to move a page which has a typo in its title?<br />
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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Courturier_v_Hastie --[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 14:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] done. In the future, you can use the [[WP:RM|requested moves page]] to request a page move. Once you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]], you should be able to move most pages under the 'Tools' menu in the top right. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Courturier_v_Hastie&diff=1213850798Talk:Courturier v Hastie2024-03-15T14:10:37Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Talk:Courturier v Hastie to Talk:Couturier v Hastie: misspell</p>
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<div>#REDIRECT [[Talk:Couturier v Hastie]]<br />
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{{R from move}}<br />
}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Couturier_v_Hastie&diff=1213850797Talk:Couturier v Hastie2024-03-15T14:10:36Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Talk:Courturier v Hastie to Talk:Couturier v Hastie: misspell</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Stub|<br />
{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}}<br />
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:This page should be moved to [[Couturier_v_Hastie]] due to a typo. [[User:Comparatum|Comparatum]] ([[User talk:Comparatum|talk]]) 16:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Courturier_v_Hastie&diff=1213850796Courturier v Hastie2024-03-15T14:10:36Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Courturier v Hastie to Couturier v Hastie: misspell</p>
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<div>#REDIRECT [[Couturier v Hastie]]<br />
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{{Redirect category shell|<br />
{{R from move}}<br />
}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Couturier_v_Hastie&diff=1213850794Couturier v Hastie2024-03-15T14:10:36Z<p>Sungodtemple: Sungodtemple moved page Courturier v Hastie to Couturier v Hastie: misspell</p>
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<div>{{Short description|1856 English contract law case}}<br />
{{Use dmy dates|date=April 2022}}<br />
{{Infobox court case<br />
| name = Couturier v Hastie<br />
| court = House of Lords<br />
| image = Céréales aplaties.jpg<br />
| date decided = <br />
| full name = Gustavus COUTURIER & Others v Robert HASTIE & Another<br />
| citations = [1856] [http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1856/J3.html UKHL J3], (1856) 5 HLC 673<br />
| judges = [[Baron Alderson]], [[Justice Wightman]], [[Justice Creswell]], [[Justice Erle]], [[Justice Williams (British judge)|Justice Williams]], [[Baron Martin (judge)|Baron Martin]], [[Justice Crompton]], [[Justice Willes]], [[Baron Bramwell]]<br />
| prior actions = <br />
| subsequent actions = <br />
| opinions = <br />
| transcripts =<br />
| keywords = [[Frustration in English law|Frustration]], [[common mistake]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''''Couturier v Hastie''''' [1856] [http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1856/J3.html UKHL J3] is an [[English contract law]] case, concerning [[common mistake]] between two contracting parties about the possibility of performance of an agreement.<br />
<br />
==Facts==<br />
Couturier agreed with Hastie to deliver some corn. They thought it was in transit between [[Salonica]] (now Thessaloniki) and the UK. But the corn had already decayed. The shipmaster had sold it. Couturier argued that Hastie was liable for the corn because Hastie had already bought an ‘interest in the adventure’, or rights under the shipping documents.<br />
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==Judgment==<br />
The House of Lords held that because the corn effectively did not exist at the time of the contract, there was presence consideration and the buyers were not liable to pay the price. Lord Cranworth L.C. said:<br />
<br />
"The whole question turns upon the construction of the contract... Looking to the contract... alone it appears to me clearly that what the parties contemplated... was that there was an existing something to be sold and bought."<ref>(1856) 5 H.L.C. 673 at 681</ref><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
{{Clist impossibility}}<br />
*[[English contract law]]<br />
*[[Frustration in English law]]<br />
*[[Sale of Goods Act 1979]] s 6<br />
*{{cite AustLII|HCA|79|1951|litigants=[[McRae v Commonwealth Disposals Commission]] |parallelcite=[http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1951/79.pdf (1951) 84 {{abbr|CLR|Commonwealth Law Reports}} 377] |courtname=auto |date=}}.<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:English mistake case law]]<br />
[[Category:House of Lords cases]]<br />
[[Category:1856 in case law]]<br />
[[Category:1856 in British law]]<br />
[[Category:Greece–United Kingdom relations]]<br />
[[Category:Grain trade]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:EBizCharge&diff=1213437731Draft:EBizCharge2024-03-13T01:52:28Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: corp - Submission is about a company or organization not yet shown to meet notability guidelines (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|corp|u=Branden127|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240313015228|ts=20240312232256}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{AFC comment|1=Needs [[WP:IS|independent coverage]]. Speaking of which, is the article about the company or the softawre? I can't tell. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
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----<br />
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{{Short description|EBizCharge is a private payment processing company founded in 2004}}<br />
{{Draft topics|software|business-and-economics|technology}}<br />
{{AfC topic|org}}<br />
<br />
{{Infobox company<br />
| name = EBizCharge<br />
| type = [[Privately held company|Private]]<br />
| industry = {{ubl|[[Financial technology]]|[[Payment processor]]}}<br />
| founded = {{start date and age|2004}}<br />
| hq_location_city = [[Irvine, California]], U.S.<br />
| services = {{ubl|AR Payment Integration|Invoicing|Payment Processing|Virtual Terminal}}<br />
| website = {{URL|https://ebizcharge.com}}<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''EBizCharge''' is payment processing software developed by Century Business Solutions. The company provides [[Invoice processing|invoice payment collection]] tools that integrate into [[Enterprise resource planning|ERP]], [[Accounting software|Accounting]], [[Customer relationship management|CRM]], or [[E-commerce|eCommerce]] systems.{{cn}} <br />
<br />
== History ==<br />
Century Business Solutions is a private credit card processing company founded in 2004.<ref>{{Cite web |title=About Us |url=https://www.centurybizsolutions.net/about-us/ |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=Century Business Solutions |language=en-US}}</ref> They developed payment processing software that allows merchants to accept [[Debit card|debit cards]], [[Credit card|credit cards]] and [[Automated clearing house|ACH]]/eCheck payments directly within their current accounting, ERP, CRM, eCommerce, or [[Point of sale|POS system]].{{cn}} In 2018, Century Business Solutions rebranded to EBizCharge.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Lepore |first=Samantha |date=2022-08-16 |title=The New Face of Century Business Solutions - EBizCharge |url=https://www.centurybizsolutions.net/company-news/ebizcharge-the-new-face-of-century-business-solutions/ |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=Century Business Solutions |language=en-US}}</ref> In 2023, EBizCharge achieved its fifth consecutive ranking on the [[Inc. (magazine)|Inc. 5000]] fastest-growing private companies list, achieving a three-year revenue growth of 103% from 2019 to 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2023-08-29 |title=Movers & Shakers: EBizCharge Honored as One of America's Fastest-Growing Private Companies |url=https://www.sema.org/news-media/enews/2023/35/movers-shakers-ebizcharge-honored-one-americas-fastest-growing-private |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Services ==<br />
EBizCharge is a [[payment gateway]] service provider that helps small, mid-size, and enterprise-level businesses to process payments.<ref>{{Cite web |last=PYMNTS |date=2015-12-18 |title=eBizCharge Integrates eInvoicing Feature |url=https://www.pymnts.com/news/b2b-payments/2015/ebizcharge-integrates-einvoicing-feature/ |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=PYMNTS.com |language=en-US}}</ref> The EBizCharge payment software is developed in-house with no third-party involvement.<ref>{{Cite web |title=Certified by Acumatica, EBizCharge is a PCI compliant payment application within Acumatica. |url=https://mayererp.com/ebizcharge/ |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=Mayer Group - Acumatica Partner |language=en-US}}</ref> It offers fraud protection tools, [[Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard|PCI-compliant security]], and invoice collection tools like recurring billing, instant payment, ACH, eCheck payment processing, an online payment portal, email pay, POS integrations, and more.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Rose |first=Susan |date=2023-08-18 |title=EBizCharge Launches Its New 3D Secure Program - Chauffeur Driven Magazine |url=https://www.chauffeurdriven.com/news-features/industry-news/3729-ebizcharge-launches-its-new-3d-secure-program.html |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=www.chauffeurdriven.com |language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=EBizCharge Credit Card and ACH Processing |url=https://appsource.microsoft.com/en-us/product/dynamics-365-business-central/pubid.integracapitalgroupinc1591917948109&#124;aid.ebizcharge_creditcard_and_ach_processing_-_bc365&#124;pappid.4bf1d9ad-6535-4333-b2ff-7549aefa054f?tab=overview |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=Microsoft AppSource |language=en-us}}</ref><br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Branden127&diff=1213437730User talk:Branden1272024-03-13T01:52:28Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:EBizCharge|EBizCharge]] (March 13) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This draft's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are: <br /><br />
* [[WP:ORGDEPTH|''in-depth'']] (not just brief mentions about the subject or routine announcements)<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:No original research#Secondary|''secondary'']]<br />
* [[WP:ORGIND|''strictly independent'']] of the subject <br /><br />
Make sure you add references that meet ''all four'' of these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=Needs [[WP:IS|independent coverage]]. Speaking of which, is the article about the company or the softawre? I can't tell.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:EBizCharge]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:EBizCharge '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:EBizCharge '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Branden127'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=1213437391Wikipedia:Teahouse2024-03-13T01:49:13Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* How can I change an AFD nom to a RFD? */ Reply</p>
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<div>{{Short description|Community hub for helping new editors}}<br />
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== Warning an IP user ==<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
An IP user has made unnecessary changes to my sandbox. Luckily, an editor removed it for me (I didn't even realize until today, and gave he/she a barnstar for it.). The IP user also made unnecessary changes to the talk page of my sandbox. I had just removed it and gave them a warning at [[User talk:216.208.29.2|their talk page.]] I'm wondering what I should do now. Should I give the IP user a different warning again next time they vandalize?<br />
<br />
Thank you.<br />
<br />
[[User:Myrealnamm|Myrealnamm]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm|talk]]) 01:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Myrealnamm|Myrealnamm]]: {{welcometea}} That's pretty much all you can do in the meantime. You can give them warnings increasing in severity if they persist, and if they accrue enough (usually with a 4th-level warning like {{tls|uw-vandalism4}}) you can bring it to the [[WP:AIV|Administration intervention against vandalism]] board. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 02:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:You would typically increment by 1, starting from [[Template:uw-vandalism1]], moving to uw-vandalism2, and so on till 4. If the edit is particularly egregious (extreme bigotry and such), I usually just skip to 4. If they vandalize after 4, report them to [[WP:AIV]]. It's worth noting this is a school IP so multiple users may see the message, not just the vandal. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 02:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks @[[User:Novo Tape|Novo Tape]]. I didn't know it was a school IP. I know how frustrating it is when you find out you're actually talking to a group of people, not just one. [[User:Myrealnamm|Myrealnamm]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm|talk]]) 21:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC). I'll keep sending notices to that user/group/ip if they continue doing things like that. <br />
:::Whoops! Sorry the signature is at the middle of the message. {{minnow}} [[User:Myrealnamm|Myrealnamm]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm|talk]]) 21:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::{{u|Myrealnamm}}, you'll get better at identifying school and other shared IPs over time. One giveaway is that most school IPs will receive warnings spaced out over several months or longer, whereas residential IPs tend to not have an extensive warning history. Additionally, I belive you get access to [[WMF:Legal:IP_Information_tool_guidelines|tools to identify the network subscriber]] once you're [[WP:EC|extended confirmed]] (maybe the access requirement is lower than EC, I'm not sure).[[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 22:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::OK [[User:Myrealnamm|Myrealnamm]] ([[User talk:Myrealnamm|talk]]) 23:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::{{re|Novo Tape}} I mean, most of the time you can just click Geolocate or one of the RIRs links at the bottom of the IP's contributions page, even us IPs can do that. <br />
:::::For this one you can see that the ISP in Geolocate (or Costumer for the America RIR) is "Conseil scolaire de district catholique de lEst ontarien", which Google Translate says stands for "Eastern Ontario Catholic District School Board". &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:80E5:6B01:7C82:2614:FB15:AFC8|2804:F14:80E5:6B01:7C82:2614:FB15:AFC8]] ([[User talk:2804:F14:80E5:6B01:7C82:2614:FB15:AFC8|talk]]) 00:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Didn't realize IPs could do that (and apparently the requirement for the full tools is just autoconfirmed). Guess I also need a trouting. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 17:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello @[[User:Novo Tape|Novo Tape]], which button is it at the bottom of an IP user's page? Geolocate? Proxy Checker?<br />
:::::::[[User:Myrealnamm|<span style="color:orange">Myrealnamm</span> ]][[User talk:Myrealnamm|(talk]] to me) 23:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I see that [[Special:Contributions/2804:F14:80E5:6B01:7C82:2614:FB15:AFC8|2804:F14:80E5:6B01:7C82:2614:FB15:AFC8]] says they used the Geolocate. Which one were you mentioning earlier @[[User:Novo Tape|Novo Tape]]? [[User:Myrealnamm|<span style="color:orange">Myrealnamm</span> ]][[User talk:Myrealnamm|(talk]] to me) 23:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::{{u|Myrealnamm}}, yes, I typically use Geolocate and whois. [[User:Novo Tape|Sincerely, Novo Tape]]<sup>[[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]]</sup> 21:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::What is a "trouting"? [[User:Augnablik|Augnablik]] ([[User talk:Augnablik|talk]]) 15:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::[[WP:TROUT]] [[User:CodeTalker|CodeTalker]] ([[User talk:CodeTalker|talk]]) 03:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::It's just a little joke that Wikipedians use to tell others they did something silly. Such as, {{trout}}. I trouted myself once because I put my signature in the middle of a message, not at the end. [[User:Myrealnamm|<span class="tmp-color" style="color:orange">Myrealnamm</span> ]][[User talk:Myrealnamm|(talk]] to me) 13:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Some like [[User:CommissarDoggo|myself]] like to keep the trouts they've been hit with on their userpage as a reminder of the silly stuff we've done. I got hit with my first last week for something I did here. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 13:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== How to create category ==<br />
<br />
Greetings,<br />
<br />
I'd like to create a new category titled Safa Women's League similar to the Category:SAFA Women's League category but can't seem to figure out how it's done. <br />
<br />
Secondly, I would like to know how I can create a source link using a clubs nickname of alternative name to the same page e.g. University of Johannesburg women's football is also known as UJ Ladies F.C. and I'd like to like to links this to the article. <br />
<br />
Thanks in advance. [[User:Mcwamcwa|Mcwamcwa]] ([[User talk:Mcwamcwa|talk]]) 22:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hello, Mcwamcwa, and welcome to the Teahouse. A category comes into existence as soon as somebody places an article in it - which (a little confusingly) you do by putting the ''category'' statement into the article. However, it is considered good practice to create the category page, with a description of what the category is: see [[WP:FAQ/Categorization#How do I create a category?]].<br />
:However, I'm a bit puzzled why there should be a [[:Category:Safa Women's League]] as well as a [[:Category:SAFA Women's League]]. It might be best to discuss this at the talk page of [[WP:WikiProject Categories]] first. <br />
:For your second question, you can create a [[WP:redirect|redirect]] page from the alternative name to the article. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 22:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] with regards to the redirect, I just read the article but it's a bit confusing as I do not have the horizontal lines at the top of my page. Do I then create an article titled UJ Ladies F.C. for example. A blank page with nothing written in it then after moving it to the article space redirect the page to the University of Johannesburg women's football page and that will create a redirect everytime someone types in UJ Ladies F.C?<br />
::I just want to check if creating a blank page with just the title on it is allowed? [[User:Mcwamcwa|Mcwamcwa]] ([[User talk:Mcwamcwa|talk]]) 20:20, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::No, you can create it directly in article space. Go to [[UJ Ladies FC]] (if that's the title). That's a redlink, so if you click on it, it will offer you the chance to create an article with that title. <br />
:::Then you start editing it, and insert the single line<br />
::: <code><nowiki>#REDIRECT [[name of target article]]</nowiki></code><br />
:::in it, and pick "Publish". [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 22:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::@[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] done. I did UJ Ladies F.C. can you confirm if that's all that's needed? Thank you for your assistance in this. [[User:Mcwamcwa|Mcwamcwa]] ([[User talk:Mcwamcwa|talk]]) 09:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::@[[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] It actually worked, thank you! [[User:Mcwamcwa|Mcwamcwa]] ([[User talk:Mcwamcwa|talk]]) 09:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Primary Sources. ==<br />
<br />
If a page has only handful of secondary sources while it is dominated by primary sources. Should we include more secondary sources to that page? [[User:Sewnbegun|Sewnbegun]] ([[User talk:Sewnbegun|talk]]) 06:04, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:While it depends on the article, usually yes. See [[WP:PRIMARY]] for more discussion. Cheers! [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 06:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{Re|Sewnbegun}} Yes, if possible. [[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:Orange;color:White;padding:2px;">Exclusive</span>]][[User:ExclusiveEditor|<span style="background:black; color:White; padding:2px;">Editor</span>]] [[User talk:ExclusiveEditor|<sub>Notify Me!</sub>]] 10:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|Sewnbegun}}, you cannot possibly understand yet how much that Teahouse hosts ''yearn'' for new editors to ask about specific articles instead of vague generalities. When you ask about a ''specific'' article, then Teahouse hosts have immediate access to a wide range of specific information about the article that new editors either do not know about or do not have access to. Teahouse hosts are here to assist you, but we need to know specifically where the problem is on this very vast project of 6,794,502 articles. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 10:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]], I was talking about [[List of X-Men members]] page. [[User:Sewnbegun|Sewnbegun]] ([[User talk:Sewnbegun|talk]]) 12:55, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::{{u|Sewnbegun}}, that is a list article which has different standards than articles about a discrete topic. You can find more about the standards at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists]]. A big issue with lists is inclusion criteria. In this case, the vast majority of the entries are blue links, which is a good sign. Whether or not those individual articles are acceptable or not is a different matter which should be assessed by editors with expertise in superhero comics and movies. Frankly, I am not that type of editor as my interest in such things is fleeting. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 20:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Okay, thank you! [[User:Sewnbegun|Sewnbegun]] ([[User talk:Sewnbegun|talk]]) 13:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Infobox weapon template ==<br />
<br />
[[Draft:Stimpex Dracon|So I've been working on the Stimpex Dracon]] page and I put into the info box information such as the chassis, range, weight, payload and some of the stuff won't wont show up in the final edit yet it would show up in the source code [[User:Nayunjajangman|Nayunjajangman]] ([[User talk:Nayunjajangman|talk]]) 17:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Nayunjajangman|Nayunjajangman]], infoboxes do that if you don't adhere to the documentation. You may have added parameters not in the infobox you are using. You probably want to use {{tlp|infobox automobile}} instead of {{tlp|infobox weapon}}. Don't care about the infobox right now. Articles even don't need to have one. The problem with your draft is sourcing. You should seek to fix that first. See [[WP:REFB]] for how to; see [[WP:RS]] for what sources to use. Regards!<span id="Usedtobecool:1710005703386:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 17:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::Infobox weapon is correct, just didn't have a parameter used correctly. Is vehicle wasn't selected so it just omitted anything relating to vehicles. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 17:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you @[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]! [[User:Nayunjajangman|Nayunjajangman]] ([[User talk:Nayunjajangman|talk]]) 17:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::As well as Reliable, sources need to be [[WP:IS|independent]] of the subject. {{HD/WINI}}. Your second reference is from the company, and the first one almost certainly comes directly from them too. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 19:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]] Well that's as reliable as it can get since there is almost no information available on the internet (although if you are able to find something other than what I've referenced to I'll gladly retract my statement) and even if I was able to get my hands on the technical documentation of the vehicle I wouldn't be able to use it to update the page since it would be illegal to. [[User:Nayunjajangman|Nayunjajangman]] ([[User talk:Nayunjajangman|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I am sorry I tagged the wrong person :/ [[User:Nayunjajangman|Nayunjajangman]] ([[User talk:Nayunjajangman|talk]]) 19:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::No worries. We don't first pick a subject, then make do with what sources are available. We first look at what sources are available, to make sure the criteria at [[WP:N]] are met, and on that basis, pick the subject we want to write about. Best,<span id="Usedtobecool:1710013542135:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 19:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::Hello again, Nayunjajangman. Sources don't have to be online (though for something as new as this I doubt if there is anything published offline), but they do have to be both Reliable, and '''independent of the subject'''. If the only sources that have been published are from the manufacturers, then it is certainly [[WP:TOOSOON]] for a Wikipedia article on it, and you are wasting your time trying. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 22:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Question 2 ==<br />
<br />
I would like to upload a screenshot of a video game, but I'm afraid it is copyrighted. Is it? Kind regards [[User:14 novembre|14 novembre]] ([[User talk:14 novembre|talk]]) 14:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:{{Ping|14 novembre}} Almost certainly, but unless you tell us which game, we can't give you a definitive answer. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:Pigsonthewing|Pigsonthewing]] Thanks for the answer, the game is [[EA Sports FC Mobile]]. Kind regards [[User:14 novembre|14 novembre]] ([[User talk:14 novembre|talk]]) 17:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Video games#Screenshots]] advises that the the Gameplay section should have independent sourcing before adding a screenshot. [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 18:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::I can't imagine that is anything but "all rights reserved". Note that the header image on the article is "fair use", not openly licensed. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 19:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== an indian movie in box office collection ranking appears to have less BO than actual count. but i cant change the ranking number. what should i do? ==<br />
<br />
the ranking of this movie remains same, it remains there only. should i cut and paste...? [[User:General Phoenix|General Phoenix]] ([[User talk:General Phoenix|talk]]) 15:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: {{Ping|General Phoenix}} Which article? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::list of indian films of 2024 [[User:General Phoenix|General Phoenix]] ([[User talk:General Phoenix|talk]]) 18:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::: {{Ping|General Phoenix}} In that case, which movie? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 19:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::manjummel boys (2024). i cant change that ranking.... [[User:General Phoenix|General Phoenix]] ([[User talk:General Phoenix|talk]]) 17:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Am I doing this right? ==<br />
<br />
I have been feeling rather overwhelmed and anxious to submit my edits to Wikipedia, because I (for whatever reason) feel there will be judgement from other editors concerning my edits. Over time I'm sure I will understand Wikipedia better, but is there a solution to my current predicament? If you have any insight please reply to this message, thanks! [[User:SHIBUYA8|SHIBUYA8]] ([[User talk:SHIBUYA8|talk]]) 15:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I think the simplest way to answer this is that of course you're going to be feeling anxious. Of doing something wrong, of having your edits reverted, of being spammed with essays and policies you'd never even heard of. All of that's understandable.<br />
:What you also have to remember is that Wikipedia is a massive project, with god knows how many editors, the large majority of which are here to do one of two things: To improve the site, and to help others either in the search of knowledge or the curation of it. The latter of those two includes you.<br />
:Nothing anyone says is likely to dispel your anxieties, all we can really say is that we were all where you are at one point in our time on this site and we're all here to help you. <br />
:You can ask questions here at any time, or you can head to the [[WP:DISCORD|Wikipedia Discord]] server to do the same thing. I'm sure anyone would be happy to help you out. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 15:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{u|SHIBUYA8}} In general, Wikipedia advice is be bold in your edits, but if reverted, discuss on the talk page of the article. New editors can be expected to reverted now and then, a common reason being the addition of content an editor knows to be true but not having added a verifying reference at the same time. Your own Sandbox is a good place to develop content and get referencing format correct before copying all that into an article. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 16:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:CommissarDoggo|CommissarDoggo]], thank you for the kind words. I'll be sure to join the Discord soon! [[User:SHIBUYA8|SHIBUYA8]] ([[User talk:SHIBUYA8|talk]]) 18:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:David notMD|David notMD]], thank you for the tips! I will definitely mess with my Sandbox some more. [[User:SHIBUYA8|SHIBUYA8]] ([[User talk:SHIBUYA8|talk]]) 18:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:SHIBUYA8|SHIBUYA8]] Welcome to Wikipedia! As @[[User:David notMD|David notMD]] said, we encourage people to be bold when editing. The great thing about Wikipedia is that if you do make a mistake, it can be reverted. Also, I see you've already joined a WikiProject—these can be great places to ask more specific questions about editing on certain topics. Feel free to pop back over to the Tea House if you have any other questions or concerns. Happy editing! '''[[User:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">Unexpected</span><span style="color:#757575;">lydian<sup>♯4</sup></span>]][[User talk:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">talk<sup>‽</sup></span>]]''' 20:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:Unexpectedlydian|Unexpectedlydian]], thank you for the kind words. I love Japan, and I'm sure [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:JAPAN&redirect=yes their WikiProject] will help me understand Wikipedia better. Thanks again, have a good one! [[User:SHIBUYA8|SHIBUYA8]] ([[User talk:SHIBUYA8|talk]]) 11:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== I would like to add information to the pages for "The Atlantic" and "Molly Ball" ==<br />
<br />
I am a newbie. If this the wrong place to be asking for this help, please send me to the right place!<br />
<br />
I would to add information to the Wikipedia pages of [[Molly Ball]] and also [[The Atlantic]]. But I think I may have a conflict of interest so I would like to ask someone "neutral" to add the information. The verifiable source of the information is an article by Erik Wemple of the Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/02/29/atlantic-krisher-japan-cambodia-settlement/ (gift link if you hit a paywall and can't read the whole artice: https://wapo.st/48OAGmU). The heading could be possibly titled "Legal Disputes" or "Notable Corrections":<br />
<br />
This is the summary of facts (see Washington Post article to confirm): <br />
<br />
'''Dispute Over Article Accuracy and Subsequent Settlement'''<br />
<br />
In December 2017, Molly Ball wrote an article for The Atlantic titled "When the Presses Stop," focusing on Bernard Krisher's life as a journalist and philanthropist, notably his founding of the Cambodia Daily. Following its publication, Deborah Krisher-Steele, Krisher's daughter, contested several aspects of the story, leading to a lawsuit filed in Japan. The lawsuit highlighted concerns over factual inaccuracies and sought corrections to preserve Bernard Krisher's legacy.<br />
<br />
The Krisher family's lawsuit brought attention to the challenges U.S. media companies face in international legal environments, contrasting with the protections they enjoy in the United States. Key points of contention included the portrayal of Krisher's response to Ball's personal health insurance issue while she was an employee at Cambodia Daily, descriptions of Krisher's journalistic style, and certain private details regarding Krisher's family.<br />
<br />
After six years of legal proceedings, The Atlantic settled the lawsuit in January 2024. As part of the settlement, The Atlantic made 16 post-publication changes to the original article. These changes addressed various aspects, including the clarification of Krisher's efforts to assist with Ball's health-insurance problem in 2003, the nature of the insurance offered by The Cambodia Daily, and several other details related to Krisher's career and personal life. The Atlantic issued a statement regarding the settlement, noting that it was reached in good faith without admitting any liability or wrongdoing.<br />
<br />
+++End of Summary+++<br />
<br />
If a volunteer editor could help, I would appreciate it. [[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]] ([[User talk:EpicEpochEditor|talk]]) 16:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hey @[[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]]! Use [http://Wikipedia:Edit_Request_Wizard/COI this wizard] to perform a COI edit request on the relevant talk pages.{{pb}}Cheers! [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 16:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you! The hyperlink to "this wizard" led me to a blank page. Could you kindly tell me the URL and I will follow your guidance. [[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]] ([[User talk:EpicEpochEditor|talk]]) 16:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Hello! The hyperlink is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_Request_Wizard/COI - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 16:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thank you, got it! [[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]] ([[User talk:EpicEpochEditor|talk]]) 17:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Opinion pieces are subject to [[WP:RSOPINION]]. In this case, if the WaPo opinion piece is the only source for the proposed text, it needs be attributed in-text to Erik Wemple and his WaPo opinion piece. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 18:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::The opinion part of the piece by Erik Wemple is whether or not the same lawsuit would yield the same results in the US. I only repeated the facts about the case in Japan and the outcome, which are facts (verified by the Washington Post) and not opinion. Hopefully that meets the standards of Wikipedia. [[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]] ([[User talk:EpicEpochEditor|talk]]) 02:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::: {{Ping|The Master of Hedgehogs}} A better way to give that link is [[Wikipedia:Edit Request Wizard/COI]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 19:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Thanks! - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 19:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::Thank you Master of Hedgehogs and others who piped in with guidance. I sent in my edit request to Wizard/COI for their review. [[User:EpicEpochEditor|EpicEpochEditor]] ([[User talk:EpicEpochEditor|talk]]) 02:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::[[File:The Wizard.jpg|thumb|upright=0.6|<small>The COI wizard is here to help you. [[User:Cremastra|🌺 Cremastra ]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 21:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</small>]]<br />
{{clear}}<br />
== Userbox ==<br />
<br />
I need help on creating my personalized userbox(s). [[User:Fugabus|Fugabus]] ([[User talk:Fugabus|talk]]) 19:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hello, @[[User:Fugabus|Fugabus]]! I recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:Userboxes#Creating a new userbox]]. - [[User:The Master of Hedgehogs|Master of Hedgehogs]] <sup>([[User talk: The Master of Hedgehogs|converse]])</sup> <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Master of Hedgehogs|hate that hedgehog!]])</sup> 19:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Creating an article ==<br />
<br />
Are there any specific requirements for creating an article? Does the topic at hand need to be popular/generally recognized by the general public beforehand? [[User:Cystidia|Cystidia]] ([[User talk:Cystidia|talk]]) 22:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:As a general rule yes, there are [[WP:GNG|general notability guidelines]], however there are specific ones to different topics. [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] will help you a whole bunch as well. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 22:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you! [[User:Cystidia|Cystidia]] ([[User talk:Cystidia|talk]]) 22:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Using the excerpt template but changing the header level ==<br />
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Is there a way to change the header level of transcluded content when using [[Template:Excerpt]]? This seems like a common enough use case— when you want to nest an excerpt that has headers within it at a different root heading level than in the original article— but I can't seem to find any documentation about it. If this template doesn't support it, what are the recommended alternatives or workarounds?&nbsp;[[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]] ([[User talk:Brusquedandelion|talk]]) 22:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: [[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]], I presume you are excerpting a section with all its subsections? If so, switch to just excerpting one section at a time (you will need multiple {{tl|Excerpt}}s, one for each) and supply whatever heading or subheading you want just above each individual {{tl|Excerpt}}. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::@[[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] that solution occurred to me, but is painful and tedious if there are many subsections, and would require editing of the article embedding the excerpted text every time the sectioning of the excerpt changed, which partially defeats one of the reasons for excerpting... was wondering if there was a better way, but if not, it is what it is, of course. [[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]] ([[User talk:Brusquedandelion|talk]]) 10:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::: [[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]], if you use {{tl|Excerpt}} in in-line mode, that is to say, with {{para|inline|yes}} then the output is a string not a block, and you can pass it to another template or Module for further processing. I have done this before, and it works fine although is a bit less friendly with the string manipulation involved; see for example, [[Ships of ancient Rome#Black Sea]]. You could do something like that to demote (or promote) subsections using [[Module:String]] with function replace and a regular expression (have done that, too, but not in Excerpt context) but that would be even less friendly. What I would do instead, is create a new template, {{tl|Heading level change}} with a parameter {{para|shift}}, such that {{para|shift|1}} adds 1 equal sign left and right of every header section, 2 adds 2 equal signs, and when negative (e.g., {{para|shift|-1}}), it substracts them. Embed the Module:String invocation and the regular expression there. Then transclude your excerpt like this:<br />
:::: <code><nowiki>{{Hlc|shift=1| {{excerpt|</nowiki>''PageTitle''{{!}}''SectionTitle''<nowiki>|inline=yes|hat=no}} }}</nowiki></code><br />
::: That should work fine, but you need to create the {{tl|Hlc}} template first for that. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 00:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Avoiding indiscriminate listings in "Persecution of..." or bigotry/oppression-related pages ==<br />
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Can someone point me in the direction of any guidelines (should they exist) on how to write and structure an article on the persecution or oppression of the members of an ethnicity/religion/political persuasion/sexuality etc. ''without'' producing a [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]] listing of every time someone did anything bad to a member of the given group ever? Are there any concrete policies on this, or litmus tests for when a specific piece of content should be included in such articles? Some example articles, which range in quality, with some clearly leaning towards the indiscriminate end of things and others not so much:<br />
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* [[Persecution of Hindus]]<br />
* [[Persecution of Christians]]<br />
* [[Antisemitism]]<br />
* [[Islamophobia]]<br />
* [[Violence against LGBT people]]<br />
* [[Anti-communism]]<br />
<br />
You get the idea.&nbsp;[[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]] ([[User talk:Brusquedandelion|talk]]) 23:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]], you are talking about a very specific and very small set. So, I think no, there's unlikely to be specific guidance on article structure beyond the general [[MOS:LAYOUT]]. The best advice I can give you is, follow the sources. Our articles appear to mostly be chronological lists of events; it's mostly history. I would imagine sources talk about more than history. So, you'd have to refer to sources to find how much [[WP:WEIGHT]] sources give to various aspects. Consider [[WP:SCOPE]] and [[WP:BALASP]]. These are all top level articles on the subject of persecution of these specific groups. They need to cover society, culture, history, politics, economics going back thousands of years. And the upper limit on article size is around 10,000 words of prose; ideally, you should aim for 6,000 words. You will have to read the most important literature on the topic and summarise what you learned. Off the top of my head, things that had long-lasting impact would be more important than things that are recorded but don't standout among every other incident. Systematic oppression stories may be more important than isolated incidents or bigotry in general. Things that still have impact today would be important. For the general case of what's indiscriminate, for example, if you end up listing the various incidents of persecution, refer to [[WP:LISTCRIT]]. I hope this helps to get you started. Good luck!<span id="Usedtobecool:1710264233808:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 17:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
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== Gabriela Zych - translation from Polish ==<br />
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{{Moved discussion from|Wikipedia talk:Teahouse#Gabriela Zych - translation from Polish| — [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 00:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
<br />
Dear Friends.<br />
<br />
I have translated an article from Polish into English (it was on a list of articles that should be translated). Could a native speaker of English look at the thing, edit it and then give ma "a-ok" to post it on main Wikipedia?<br />
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LINK: [[User:Kaworu1992/sandbox|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kaworu1992/sandbox]]<br />
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Best wishes<br />
-- [[User:Kaworu1992|Kaworu1992]] ([[User talk:Kaworu1992|talk]]) 21:27, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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EDIT: Also, can I add a photo of her even if it is being protected by the copyrights? It seems to me that American law is very different in that regard to Polish one? -- [[User:Kaworu1992|Kaworu1992]] ([[User talk:Kaworu1992|talk]]) 21:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Photos (etc.) cannot be added to the usual repository of [[Wikimedia Commons]] unless they are in the [[Public domain]] or have been released under an appropriate [[Creative Commons]] licence by the copyright holder only.<br />
:On this English-language Wikipedia, use of copyrighted images is ''sometimes'' possible under the [[Fair use]] doctrine. This never applies to a living person, since it would be possible for someone to take a new photo of them and release it, but since this subject has been dead for 14-ish years, a ''single'' non-free image ''could'' be used if no suitable free image can be found.<br />
:HOWEVER, such 'Fair use' images can ''only'' be added to Articles – they ''cannot'' be added to drafts (or User pages, etc.). If you (or another) are going to use a non-free image under Fair use, you will have to wait until the draft is accepted as an article before adding it.<br />
:Lack of a photo will not affect the acceptance of the draft as an article, and you could add a note to the draft's Talk page explaining to reviewers that you have a particular photo in mind, and even add a link to it if it's on the Internet. Hope this helps (and that I've got everything right – copyright is very tricky.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.198.186.221|51.198.186.221]] ([[User talk:51.198.186.221|talk]]) 09:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Kaworu1992|Kaworu1992]] In relation to the text of the article, one of her key claims to notability seems to be that she "was running a [[mangle]]" for which she won a cross of merit. The "mangle" links to a disambiguation page which has no meaning I can see which would lead to a prize. Is this a mis-translation? I think it would be helpful to readers if you used the |quote and |trans-quote parameters on some of the references so that non-Polish speakers here on the English Wikipedia would understand more about what the sources say. I suggest you submit the draft to the [[WP:AfC]] process using the {{tl|user sandbox}} template, so that experienced editors can formally provide feedback or suggestions. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Dear Mike.<br />
::I do not think she was awarded the Cross because of her mangle - more likely because of her Katyn activity. I mean, the official website of the Polish goverment is kind of laconic and I can only wonder. It does seems like she was awarded because of the mangle, though - maybe I will just put an enter in there?<br />
::I will also put the template in my sandbox so other can check the article ;-) Thank you for this suggestion ;-)<br />
::Best wishes<br />
::-- [[User:Kaworu1992|Kaworu1992]] ([[User talk:Kaworu1992|talk]]) 13:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:Kaworu1992|Kaworu1992]] Sorry, I still don't understand why it is significant she was "running a [[mangle (machine)|mangle]]". As the target article says, that is an old type of laundry device for removing water from clothes. Was she providing some sort of laundry service and, if so, to whom and why? [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 14:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I've just noticed that a small article [[Gabriela Zych]] already exists. As such, I think it would be better if you just incorporated the new material directly into it and then [[WP:BLANK|blanked]] your sandbox page. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 14:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Correct use of listas ==<br />
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I've written a couple biographies and want them to correctly list alphabetically by last name within categories. For example, both [[Rufus Clark]] and [[Geoffrey Cuming]] currently list by first name (R and G, respectively) in the categories they populate. Where am I going wrong here? ~ [[User:Pbritti|Pbritti]] ([[User talk:Pbritti|talk]]) 02:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hi {{u|Pbritti}}. It looks like [[Rufus Clark]] has the [[Template:DEFAULTSORT|DEFAULTSORT]] magic word but it's been left blank. That one should be "DEFAULTSORT:Clark, Rufus", and Cuming should follow the same pattern. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 02:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Aha! Thank you, {{u|Firefangledfeathers}}! ~ [[User:Pbritti|Pbritti]] ([[User talk:Pbritti|talk]]) 04:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Person not listening to me ==<br />
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[[User:Elvisisalive95]] keeps reverting my edits without any summary; they also deleted my comment when I asked them about it. Can someone help? [[Special:Contributions/2605:B40:13E7:F600:40FE:7B6D:17E8:D289|2605:B40:13E7:F600:40FE:7B6D:17E8:D289]] ([[User talk:2605:B40:13E7:F600:40FE:7B6D:17E8:D289|talk]]) 03:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hello IP [[Special:Contributions/2605:B40:13E7:F600:40FE:7B6D:17E8:D289|2605:B40:13E7:F600:40FE:7B6D:17E8:D289]], I see two sides to this question. The editor is not talking to you. It is on them. They need to do better. But this sort of thing has happened to me too, at [[Songs 2 (Rich Mullins album)]], for example. The editor had reverted multiple attempts at redirection. So, I posted to their talk page. They didn't revert my message, but the reverted at the article again. So, I nominated the article for deletion. So, the second facet, what you can do next, comes down to [[WP:BLAR]]. As an IP, it would be cumbersome to create an AFD, so perhaps you might opt for [[WP:MERGE]] requests instead. Merge discussions are even worse-attended than deletion discussions but the final outcome that you seek would be the same, conversion of that article to redirect. I will ask the editor why they are not communicating with you, in the meanwhile. Regards!<span id="Usedtobecool:1710129492613:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 03:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:@[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]] This IP is blanking pages prior to consensus, they had previously done the same to [[Metal-Head]] & then got blocked for edit warring. Now they’re back doing the same exact thing with another account. [[User:Elvisisalive95|Elvisisalive95]] ([[User talk:Elvisisalive95|talk]]) 04:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[User:Elvisisalive95|Elvisisalive95]], if I have this correct, they were blocked for one week in February, and they've been blocked again today. But they were not blocked in between when the recent incident occured. Honestly I am more sympathetic to the IP in the February incident. They were explaining themselves in the edit summaries and even started a discussion on the talk page. You breached [[WP:3RR]] without even using edit summaries. You were even warned by an admin to do better and you promised you would but here you failed to do so again. At no point, I see that the IP was told that policies required them to go to AFD once reverted in a [[WP:BLAR]] attempt. If someone had, then the case for disruptive editing would be much stronger. Please talk to editors who are not blocked, especially when they initiate conversations. [[WP:BLAR]] is not vandalism. Please stop characterising it as such, moving forward. As a recent changes patroller, it is paramount that you be precise about the reasons and the warnings that you use, since you are using automated warnings which say very specific things, which if they don't apply, the people who get warned are liable to think it was a mistake and just ignore it.<br/>IP, you are blocked again, for one month, this time. You really need to stop edit-warring. That never gets you your object. Especially as an IP editor, you are easier to block and forget about than mentor. Please either make an unblock request or wait out your block. When you get back, only ever blank and redirect an article once. If that does not stick, initiate formal deletion procedures. Best,<span id="Usedtobecool:1710133279845:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 05:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:::First of all i want to thank you for taking your time to go through this entire matter. As for this matter, failure to go through the proper channels & blanking pages prior to consensus is vandalism. That’s why they got blocked for the 2nd time. I had already explained that to them the last time and they came back doing the same thing. Template warnings were sufficient for this specific case in my opinion. Again, thank you for what you do, you’re appreciated here. [[User:Elvisisalive95|Elvisisalive95]] ([[User talk:Elvisisalive95|talk]]) 17:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:Elvisisalive95|Elvisisalive95]], please refer to [[WP:VANDALISM]]. The word has a specific and narrow meaning on Wikipedia, and abusing it is considered a personal attack which is prohibited by our behavioural policies. Whether you use an automated message or write your own, you are responsible for its content. Templated warnings are sufficient when they say what is reasonable to say in a given situation. Regardless, you don't get to drop warnings and completely refuse to talk with them further, communication is still required.<span id="Usedtobecool:1710264762412:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 17:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::I agree with you my friend. Bottom line is no one can blank a page prior to consensus, which is why the IP got blocked. I hope you have an awesome week! [[User:Elvisisalive95|Elvisisalive95]] ([[User talk:Elvisisalive95|talk]]) 18:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Is RYM reliable? ==<br />
{{Archive top|result=[[User:Spencer524|Spencer524]] (OP) blocked for block evasion. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
Is the genre section of Rate Your Music reliable to add as a genre on Wikipedia? [[User:Spencer524|Spencer524]] ([[User talk:Spencer524|talk]]) 04:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:No. See [[WP:RYM]].<br>It's always a good idea to check [[WP:RSP]] for questions about source reliability. [[User:CodeTalker|CodeTalker]] ([[User talk:CodeTalker|talk]]) 05:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::If RSP doesn't have the thing your looking for, [[WP:RSN]] is another good place to ask <span class ="nowrap"><b>[[User:NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">NW1223</span>]]&lt;[[User talk:NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">Howl at me</span>]]&bull;[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|<span style="color:blue">My hunts</span>]]&gt;</b></span> 15:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::yeah I checked, RYM isn't reliable, if you are an administrator, you might want to check Another Day in Paradise by Phil Collins page. [[User:Spencer524|Spencer524]] ([[User talk:Spencer524|talk]]) 15:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Hello, Spencer524, and welcome to the Teahouse. If an article is citing an unreliable source, anybody may remove the citation - it doesn't require an admin. <br />
::::The best action always is to find a reliable source, and substitute it; or if a reliable source cannot be found, remove the citation and the information which depends on it. <br />
::::But editors being busy people and working on what they choose, often people will just add a tag: probably {{tl|unreliable source}}. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 16:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{Archive bottom}}<br />
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== How to make it neutral tone, or improve. ==<br />
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I am currently revising an article about an [[Franz Brandner|Austrian artist]](painter), and the article requires a neutral tone. I have made my best effort to ensure the text is neutral, but I would greatly appreciate the assistance of experienced editors in reviewing and improving the content. Your expertise will help ensure that the article maintains a balanced and unbiased perspective.<br />
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Thank you for your time and consideration. [[User:Wikiasd|Wikiasd]] ([[User talk:Wikiasd|talk]]) 08:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:I would generally refer to [[WP:PUFFERY]], which has more tips and examples.<br />
:Looking at your first few sentences:<br />
:{{talk quote|Franz Brandner is an Austrian artist renowned for his vibrant works that often reflect his experiences in South Korea.}}<br />
:Right out of the gate, {{!xt|renowned for his vibrant works}} is unacceptable editorializing. Try {{xt|known for his works inspired by his experiences in South Korea.}}<br />
:{{talk quote|Brandner showed an early affinity for the arts. His passion led him to pursue a formal education in art, culminating in his graduation from Art College. During his college years, Brandner was exposed to a wide range of artistic styles and mediums, which would later influence his diverse body of work.}}<br />
:Once more, {{!xt|showed an early affinity}} is not empirical—if a source relates this, that source should be attributed, phrases like this should not be written in [[WP:wikivoice|wikivoice]]. Moreover, this likely shouldn't be here at all unless it's particularly relevant to what reliable sources say about the subject. I would rewrite this as {{xt|Brandner was exposed to a variety of aesthetic influences while attending art college, which would later influence much of his work.}}<br />
:Also, it would be nice to hear what the influences are proportional to their attestation in sources so it rests on the substance of the topic.<br />
:To reemphasize, terms like {{xt|vivid}} and {{xt|significant role in fostering cultural exchange through his art}} should almost never be used in Wikipedia's own voice. If they are due at all, they should be attributed. If you end up with too many quotes after that, that means you're still trying to puff the subject up. Once again, check [[WP:PUFFERY]]. Cheers! [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 09:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:This article is suffused with windy nothings. "Brandner’s professional journey began with the establishment of his art studio in Innsbruck" means, I think, "Brandner set up his studio in Innsbruck". "[P]romoting mutual understanding and appreciation between the two nations" is a staple of the most somniferous of speeches, delivered to people yawning, nodding off, or fiddling with their phones. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Another example of 'content' not supported by a reference: "His work has attracted the attention of art enthusiasts and dignitaries alike..." And throughout, I agree there is so much vague laudatory wording. The root of the problem is that you - the creator - moved this from your Sandbox to mainspace without submitting it to Article for Creation for a review, which would have resulted in it being Declined. It is possible that a New Pages Patrol reviewer will convert it to Draft status, or even Speedy deleted it as unacceptable. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 13:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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{{u|Wikiasd}} On a different note, I strongly suspect you created your account to conduct undeclared paid editing. You created a Sandbox draft of this article on 28 Feb, then on 9 March added word hyperlinks to a dozen random articles (all since reverted), so as to qualify for creating an article in mainspace - and then moved your Sandbox to mainspace on the same day. Please reply. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 13:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:How do I get review from the sandbox draft? [[User:Wikiasd|Wikiasd]] ([[User talk:Wikiasd|talk]]) 18:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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[[Franz Brandner]] has been deleted by an Administrator. You have an early version at your Sandbox. You can work on that - avoiding all wording that is not neutral point of view - and submit it for AfC review when you believe it is ready. Before that, I strongly recommend that if yours is a paid or personal connection to Brandner, you use the instructions at [[WP:PAID]] or [[WP:COI]] to describe your connection. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== "Reaction" to a novel ==<br />
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I'm preparing a review of a novel (in Visual Editor). In the "Reaction" section there will be a selection of comments from published articles. I'm also thinking of including the ratings from people who have bought the book on Amazon, i.e. 45% very good, 30% good, 15% poor etc. Would this be appropriate for a Wikipedia article? [[User:Pjplumbing|Pjplumbing]] ([[User talk:Pjplumbing|talk]]) 11:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Pjplumbing|Pjplumbing]], refer to [[MOS:NOVELS]] if you aren't. It should be a "Reception" section rather than a reaction. As for Amazon, the answer would be no, almost always. You can't cite to Amazon directly. If another reliable source has quoted those numbers, put them in good context that also fits well within the article, and the numbers are not outdated already, is when I would find them acceptable. Best,<span id="Usedtobecool:1710157605717:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 11:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::See also: [[WP:AMAZON]]<span id="Usedtobecool:1710157686787:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 11:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
:::If your question is about [[Mrs Osmond]], which has been accepted as an article, then your Reception section already has quotes from a number of professional book reviewers. That should suffice. Although you did not ask, in my opinion the plot summary is far too long. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 13:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Infobox ==<br />
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The infobox I added stops in the middle, it is not visible 'front desk'. The information wich follows, and thus is not visible, is written in the same way as the foregoing, so I don't have a clue what's going on. This is te page: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonie_%22De_Vriendenkrans%22 [[User:Mathuw|Mathuw]] ([[User talk:Mathuw|talk]]) 14:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:This is a question better asked at the NLWiki's Teahouse (assuming it has one). [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 14:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I am sorry, as soon as I logged in, I was sent to the English Wiki. I will try to move over to the dutchmen. [[User:Mathuw|Mathuw]] ([[User talk:Mathuw|talk]]) 14:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::No worries, I hope you find an answer. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 15:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Articles not posted ==<br />
<br />
I have written articles on two artists: Wallace Bradstreet Putnam, and Rafael Leonardo Black. Neither one of them appear on Wikipedia, but I do not understand why. Is there someone I can contact to ask why? [[User:FrancisNaumann|FrancisNaumann]] ([[User talk:FrancisNaumann|talk]]) 15:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:It appears that you've put in undeletion requests for the two articles, one of which has been returned to your [[User:FrancisNaumann/sandbox|sandbox]]. <br />
:Looking at the article itself, it's absolutely filled with [[WP:PUFFERY|puffery]] and is a nightmare for anyone who holds [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] dear. You'll need to seriously improve it before it can become a full article. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 15:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[Draft:Wallace Bradstreet Putnam]] has not been submitted for review since un-deletion was requested. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 15:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[Draft:Wallace Bradstreet Putnam|Here]] is the page that actually got undeleted, it has only a single source and is similarly filled with puffery and a lack of a neutral point of view (I also noticed you appear to be involved in that singular source?). [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 15:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::User has also extensively edited the article about themselves here [[Francis Naumann]] without any declaration of conflict of interest. [[User:Theroadislong|Theroadislong]] ([[User talk:Theroadislong|talk]]) 15:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Mobile page creation ==<br />
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Can pages that don’t exist be viewed and new pages be created on the (IOS) app? [[Special:Contributions/2600:100A:B1E1:6558:82D:BE41:7B6C:7CF7|2600:100A:B1E1:6558:82D:BE41:7B6C:7CF7]] ([[User talk:2600:100A:B1E1:6558:82D:BE41:7B6C:7CF7|talk]]) 15:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:I'm sorry but pages that don't exist cannot be viewed on any app, neither can they be created on the iPhone app. For more information please see [[mw:Wikimedia Apps/iOS FAQ]] [[User:Shantavira|Shantavira]]|[[User talk:Shantavira|<sup>feed me</sup>]] 10:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:But you might find [[User:Cullen328/Smartphone editing]] helpful, IP user. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 17:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Preview mode is not working ==<br />
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It only displays the edit window. Other features that depend on the Preview Mode, like What links here? are not working either. [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 15:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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: This is on an iPad using the Safari browser. [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 17:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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: I installed the Duck Duck Go browser and it runs fine. Something I could do is erase and reinstall Safari. In fact I should do a hard close on it. [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 18:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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: Hard close solved nothing. It is impossible to un-install Safari, the system prohibits it. [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 19:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:The inability to uninstall one browser doesn't prevent you from installing an additional browser, as an alternative. [[Special:Contributions/1.33.56.248|1.33.56.248]] ([[User talk:1.33.56.248|talk]]) 21:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Vandalism ==<br />
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If a user keeps vandalizing an article, what do I do? The crazy thing is that it's not one user, it's multiple! Also how do I protect articles like other users? [[User:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine|CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine]] ([[User talk:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine|talk]]) 15:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:If you have a plugin like [[WP:TWINKLE]] then it's pretty easy to deal with vandals through the warning templates. If I may ask, what page are you referencing? [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 15:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302]]. See its talk page to help understand what's going on [[User:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine|CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine]] ([[User talk:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine|talk]]) 15:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine|CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine]], page protection can be requested at [[WP:RFPP]]. [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.57|57.140.16.57]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.57|talk]]) 16:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Hello, CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine. I don't see [[WP:vandalism|vandalism]] on that article (which is defined as editing intended to damage Wikipedia). I see users inserting information which others disagree with and remove. This is normal on Wikipedia: see [[WP:BRD]]. <br />
:::If users are repeatedly editing against consensus, then that might be [[WP:disruptive editing|disruptive editing]], for which they should be warned and if necessary taken to [[WP:ANI]] [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 16:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{Ping|CreatorOfMinecraftHerobrine}} Please see [[WP:NOTVANDAL]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Kernow ==<br />
{{atop|[[WP:ANI]] has a parallel discussion. Presumably, editors will eventually find their way to a WikiProject or an article talk page from there. '''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 17:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
Hi, why do Palestinians get to be from Palestine, but Cornish people from Kernow are forced to be "English" on Wikipedia? Do you only listen to what the colonial oppressor says about their prize or not? [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 16:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:honestly i have thought about that too...british empire yk. india also faced this but we fought back (no political or religious issue here, just historical) [[User:General Phoenix|General Phoenix]] ([[User talk:General Phoenix|talk]]) 17:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Exactly. It's imperialism! So it's particularly galling, as a colonised minority, to be trying to correct this on English-language Wikipedia and having the editors here tell me I'm "vandalising" because they are upholding English imperialism. [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 17:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I fixed the [[Richard Carew (antiquary)|Richard Carew]] article my 'ansome. 😁 [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 17:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:: You are a gentleman and a scholar, thank you. Kernow bys vykken, pard. --[[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 20:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Meur ras dhis, yma an wiasva ma er agan pynn, soweth... [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 20:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Gwir an ger. [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 20:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:I fixed the [[Kitty_Lee_Jenner|Kitty Jenner]] article, sos. If they call ''that'' vandalism, they're high. --[[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 20:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::An ughella, yns... [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 21:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:IP editor, Wikipedia operates on [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]], so you will have to convince other editors interested in these articles to accept the changes you want to make. There is frequent disagreement about terms like "British" as opposed to "English" for example, and it gets worse from there. A line of argument that compares Cornish people to Palestinians is unlikely to be persuasive, in my view. The bottom line is that you cannot force your changes through, and must persuade those who disagree with you, using arguments based on Wikipedia's [[WP:PAG|policies and guidelines]]. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 18:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::So, how, precisely, do you expect a national minority, one that has been oppressed for centuries, to convince the national majority that colonises it to agree to respect their identity? Numerically, this seems doomed from the start. [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 19:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Pretty much yes, see [[WP:RGW]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 20:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But the problem is, you are not recording accurately. There is no record of a legal rejoinder of Kernow to England. Legally, Cornwall is not part of England. Indeed, sources cite it as being separate from England throughout history. Wikipedia is choosing false information that does not exist over true information that does. [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 20:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::: And you wonder why Wikipedia editors are mostly straight white dudes from the global majority. --[[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 20:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I'm fairly sure we have at least an essay on "Should they be called British or whatever", but haven't found it. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 18:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Might you be thinking of [[WP:UKNATIONALS]]? [[User:Shaws username|<span style="background-color:#f28305; color:#110094; font-family:Courier new; font-weight: bold">Shaws&nbsp;username</span>]]&nbsp;.&nbsp;[[User talk:Shaws username|<span style="font-family:Courier new">talk</span>]]&nbsp;. 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Looks like it! The [[WP:UKCHANGE]] part seems on-topic. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 18:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::So, if sources support it, nationality = Cornish would be acceptable in the lead and infobox, correct? 🤔 [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 19:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::In the lead I think so (although some people might disagree) but I don't think so for the infobox since legally speaking they are/were British nationals. However [[MOS:INFONAT]] does say that there's no reason for nationality to be in the infobox when it can be inferred from birthplace. So, from my interpretation, there's no reason to have the infobox give either as a nationality when it also has a birthplace. [[User:Shaws username|<span style="background-color:#f28305; color:#110094; font-family:Courier new; font-weight: bold">Shaws&nbsp;username</span>]]&nbsp;.&nbsp;[[User talk:Shaws username|<span style="font-family:Courier new">talk</span>]]&nbsp;. 19:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::So it seems like what you're telling me is that it would NOT be considered vandalism to list a Cornish person as "a Cornish [author or whatever]" in an article on English Wikipedia? And yet, every time I do so, I am told I am vandalising. [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 20:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::You need to provide reliable sources, like I did on the Richard Carew article. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 20:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::: Whilst I get while you're coming from, I'm not sure I should have to cite that Kernow isn't in England any more than I should have to cite that Tibet isn't. --[[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 20:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::It's the only way to win around here, like it or not. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 20:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]] Stop reverting my CITED edits that are in line with what was discussed here. Hey @[[User:Tewdar|Tewdar]], you need to see this. [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 15:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::No. Stop with the ridiculous regionalist edits. Feel free to take me to ANI if you don't like it: you will soon find out the views of the general community towards pseudo-nationalist-driven editing. - [[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]] ([[User talk:SchroCat|talk]]) 15:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::It's not nationalist, it's literally using CITED sources, everyone here agrees that's OK and Cornish IS a nationality! What's wrong with you? [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 15:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Perhaps that is a good suggestion. Reverting well-sourced material, and calling this {{tq|ridiculous regionalist edits}}, is certainly not a very good look. I notice you did not revert my changes to [[Richard Carew (antiquary)]]. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 15:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::{{ping|SchroCat}} - this is me asking you nicely to stop removing sourced material. Why would you want to go to ANI? The consensus and sources do not seem to agree with your interpretation. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 15:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I have spent literally all day carefully sourcing my edits and this 'fellow' has reverted them all because, apparently, Cornish is "Not a Nationality". I assume he knows something about MY nationality that the COUNCIL OF EUROPE does not. [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 15:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::i strongly support you [[User:General Phoenix|General Phoenix]] ([[User talk:General Phoenix|talk]]) 15:54, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::Thank you. If you have the time to say so here that would be much appreciated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_from_Gwikor_Frank [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 15:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Hi IP, the other thing is that you're an IP editor, sorry to say. You'll find people will be less twitchy on the vandalism reversions if you stick around for a while on a named account. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I checked some of yesterdays edits, didn't see anyone use the word "vandalism", so "every time" is wrong. Some reverts had no [[WP:ES]], but so did the original edits. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 07:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::It's right [[User talk:86.3.208.127#March 2024|here]], don't gaslight me. [[Special:Contributions/86.3.208.127|86.3.208.127]] ([[User talk:86.3.208.127|talk]]) 09:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Still not "every time", but yes, there it is. @[[User:The Herald|The Herald]], do you think [[WP:VANDALISM]] was right in context? [[WP:NOTVAND]] applies to automated messages as well. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::There are four sources that describe Carew as Cornish (and several more for a CITEBOMB if necessary), and zero sources that describe him as British or English (that I could find). Incidentally, I have found Wikipedia's treatment of Cornish people, language, and culture to be, in several cases I have been unfortunately involved in, ''utterly disgusting''. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 19:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::I fully agree with you re: our treatment here. I'm an administrator over on Kernewek Wikipedia, but I never come here any more because of the way this Wiki treats us. [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 20:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::"I never come here any more." But here you are. [[Special:Contributions/1.33.56.248|1.33.56.248]] ([[User talk:1.33.56.248|talk]]) 21:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::What a helpful comment. You're quite right, though, I have newfound zeal for English Wikipedia editing thanks to the excellent example of shown by [[User:Tewdar|Tewdar]]. [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 22:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I read a comment the other day on here that claimed Cornish people are {{tq|mostly descended from 18th century immigrant miners from the Midlands and their families}}. Can you imagine anyone making such ridiculous claims about other ethnic groups not getting INSTA-PERMABANNED? [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 11:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*''Responding due to the courtesy ping'' Like Cullen328 said, Wikipedia operates on consensus. If your edits are being reverted everytime as test edits or vandalism, then you must approach an alternate method. I agree it might be in hindsight that the automated warnings termed them as vandalism, but they were constituting to disruption since your edits were not supported by references from reliable sources. Cornish or British, you have to back up your claim, else it will be defaulted to British per the already established consensus. You may start discussion in respective talk pages or even an [[WP:RFC|RfC]] if you are interested genuinely in changing the 'wrong'. Thanks and happy editing. [[User:The Herald|The Herald (Benison)]] ([[User talk:The Herald|talk]]) 10:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:So, to clarify, you do not think that being born in Cornwall makes one Cornish? The facts speak for themselves! [[User:Gwikor Frank|Gwikor Frank]] ([[User talk:Gwikor Frank|talk]]) 10:33, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:Most of the time, there are literally ''zero'' sources supporting claims that people born in Cornwall are 'British' or 'English', but somehow nobody ever asks for any sources for that. Hmm. Sounds a little bit one sided. I'd say the [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY]] claim in these cases would be that the individuals are British or English, myself. Where can I read the 'already established consensus'? [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 11:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::Are you claiming that people born in Cornwall are not 'British' or 'English'? Legally Cornwall is part of both England and of the United Kingdom. So that seems like a bit of a "blue sky" claim? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::Who, me? I just follow the sources, me. If they say Cornish, that's what I say. If they say British or English, that's what I say. If they say nothing, I follow the relevant Wikipedia default recommendation. [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#fcaf17;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 16:15, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::Regarding the Council of Europe determination, described at [https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/people-and-communities/equality-and-diversity/cornish-national-minority/ Cornish National Minority], does giving Cornish people the same status as the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish, create a nation of Cornwall? Or does it just protect them '''as a minority''' within England or the UK? That source is not clear. And is it meant to apply retrospectively, to all people who have ever been born in Cornwall, or does it just apply going forward? Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::It would be pretty weird if it didn't apply retrospectively, as someone famous for being Cornish, for work for the Cornish language or Cornish culture or whatever, would then be English one day and then Cornish the next. Commonsense says that for example, when Daphne du Maurier helped found Mebyon Kernow, the nationalist party in Cornwall, that she didn't feel English but Cornish. That should be something that wikipedia was able to express. [[User:Brwynog|Brwynog]] ([[User talk:Brwynog|talk]]) 17:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*::::Afaict, on WP, [[Cornish people|Cornish]] is an ethnicity and Cornwall is a county in England ([[Constitutional status of Cornwall|views on this exists]]). [[MOS:ETHNICITY]] states ''"Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability."'' Going by that, it's not a one-size-fits-all situation. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
*:::::In other words, if a person is notably Cornish and references can establish that, it can be used, but should not necessarily be used just because someone was born there. Is that what you are saying? [[User:Brwynog|Brwynog]] ([[User talk:Brwynog|talk]]) 17:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
{{abottom}}<br />
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== Editing with vpn ==<br />
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Aside from my phone, my only way of editing would be on my school laptop. The issue is the school uses [[Securly]] which led to a friend of mine getting her account blocked. If I sign in on my laptop will my account get blocked? Is there any way to get around this issue? (Hope this is the right place for this)[[User:Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion|Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion]] ([[User talk:Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion|talk]]) 18:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion|Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion]] Welcome to Wikipedia! If you don't get good reply here at the Teahouse, you can try [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)]]. But give it a day. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 18:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion|Flaming Hot Mess of Confusion]] According to [https://www.securly.com/assets/images/DNSwhitepaper_final.pdf], Securly uses a [[proxy server]], which means that anyone using a proxy to edit can be [[wp:block|blocked]] on sight according to [[WP:Open proxies]]. If your personal laptop does not use a proxy, then you should be able to edit with it just fine. Happy editing! [[User talk:Relativity|<b style="border-radius:3em;padding:6px;background:#e82c52;color:white;"> Relativity </b>]]<span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"></span> 04:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I guess you have to log in or use an IP. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 17:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Skye Terrier: - Statue - Tartan - Name Day ==<br />
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I would like to offer Wikipedia information on the Skye Terrier. Such as: the Life-sized statue on the Isle Of Skye unveiled by HRH Princess Anne; The Skye Terrier Tartan; and 'Skye Terrier Day' being 21 February. I have document items I will happily email to Wikipedia so as to ensure that the information is correct. [[User:Bruce Wylie|Bruce Wylie]] ([[User talk:Bruce Wylie|talk]]) 19:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello and welcome to Wikipedia @[[User:Bruce Wylie|Bruce Wylie]]! If you could provide reliable sources (see [[WP:RS|this]]), someone could definitely add the information to the page. Happy editing! [[User:Kline|Kline]] • [[User talk:Kline|talk to me!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kline|contribs]] 19:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hello, {{u|Bruce Wylie}}. You could discuss this at [[Talk:Skye Terrier]], but that talk page has been dormant since 2009. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 01:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Let's elaborate a little, {{U|Bruce Wylie}}. If you could specify one or more of [[WP:RS|what Wikipedia classes as reliable sources]] for each of these claims, then you'd be welcome to do either of two things with the claim. You could post the claim/suggestion, of course with its reliable source(s), to [[Talk:Skye Terrier]], in the hope that somebody else will add the material to the article. Or you could edit [[Skye Terrier]] yourself, adding the claim with its reference(s). Yes, the talk page has long been dormant, but no matter. If there's no response there after a couple of days, post a message to the foot of [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs]], inviting people to respond on [[Talk:Skye Terrier]]. Whichever your choice, it won't be necessary to send any email. (I do wonder, however, what the significance might be of "''XYZ'' Day" being such-sand-such a day of the year.) -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Renaming an article ==<br />
<br />
Hello! I came across this article and noticed that Kofax was renamed to Tungsten Automation. I see in the talk pages that there is a request to make the changes too. <br />
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kofax<br />
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I don't mind making the changes, but I don't know how to change the article name and redirect it. Could anyone explain to me how and/or link me to an article about the process?<br />
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Thanks so much. [[User:LaesaMajestas|LaesaMajestas]] ([[User talk:LaesaMajestas|talk]]) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:LaesaMajestas|LaesaMajestas]], you can change the name of an article by moving it to a different title, but I think in this case you have to discuss it in the talk page and get the approval. You can find the info at [[WP:MOVE]]. [[User:Excellenc1|<span style="background:#26428B; color:#7DF9FF; padding:4px; border-radius: 4px">'''''Excellenc1'''''</span>]] ('''[[User talk:Excellenc1|talk]]''') 20:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::[[User:Excellenc1|Excellenc1]], thank you for your help. I went ahead and moved it - it seems such a clear-cut case that I hate to delay the project and use editor bandwidth discussing the obvious. I appreciate you sending me to the relevant articles on it. [[User:LaesaMajestas|LaesaMajestas]] ([[User talk:LaesaMajestas|talk]]) 20:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Speedy deletion of an article due to [[WP:1S]] ==<br />
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[[Jwalamukhi Devdung|This article]] contains only one sentence so [[Draft:Jwalamukhi Devdung|I draftified it]]. Should it also be speedy deleted? (I didn't find any criteria that it satisfies). [[User:Excellenc1|<span style="background:#26428B; color:#7DF9FF; padding:4px; border-radius: 4px">'''''Excellenc1'''''</span>]] ('''[[User talk:Excellenc1|talk]]''') 20:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:The draft shouldn't be deleted as it is well.. a draft but I tagged the redirect per [[WP:CSD#R2|CSD criteria R2]]. Hope that helps! [[User:Kline|Kline]] • [[User talk:Kline|talk to me!]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kline|contribs]] 20:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::In my opinion drafitfying was appropriate. If the creating editor was new to Wikipedia, perhaps some time could have been allowed to add to the 'article', but considered a long but mixed editing history of editing, making it a draft feels valid. You did the courtesy of notifying the creating editor that it was now a draft. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Antoneta Alamat Kusijanovic ==<br />
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I wrote an article on Antoneta Alamat Kusijanovic that wasn't approved based on notoriety. Can someone let me know why the French version of this is approved? See at link: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoneta_Alamat_Kusijanović Thank you! [[User:2AMUser|2AMUser]] ([[User talk:2AMUser|talk]]) 23:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hi, the fr wiki has their own notability guidelines, the ones here on en wiki are different. You can see them at [[WP:NOTABILITY]] [[User:Shaws username|<span style="background-color:#f28305; color:#110094; font-family:Courier new; font-weight: bold">Shaws&nbsp;username</span>]]&nbsp;.&nbsp;[[User talk:Shaws username|<span style="font-family:Courier new">talk</span>]]&nbsp;. 23:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:2AMUser|2AMUser]], [[Draft:Antoneta Alamat Kusijanovic]] is not an article but a draft. (I suspect that the surname is misspelled, for Kusijanović.) The draft sounds strangely matey, referring to her has "Antoneta". (En:Wikipedia uses surnames -- other than for Vietnamese, Icelandic, and perhaps some other peoples.) We read that {{Olive|MURINA continued to garner critical acclaim as one of the Best Films of 2022 by The Hollywood Reporter, Associated Press, Vogue, Vulture, The Atlantic, The A.V. Club and The Daily Beast.}} Why "Best Films" and not "best films"? Why MURINA and not ''Murina''? Why is this major claim sourced simply to "Variety", a link which, when I click on it, confirms none of this? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 01:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Merged articles ==<br />
<br />
I was merging articles a few days ago and forgot to apply the discussion closed template. Should I apply it now? [[User:OrdinaryGiraffe|OrdinaryGiraffe]] ([[User talk:OrdinaryGiraffe|talk]]) 01:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:OrdinaryGiraffe|OrdinaryGiraffe]], can you say where? The answer is almost certainly yes, but it's better to be specific and make sure. Regards!<span id="Usedtobecool:1710264929047:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 17:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::[[Southwest Transitway (Winnipeg)]] and [[Winnipeg Rapid Transit]] [[User:OrdinaryGiraffe|OrdinaryGiraffe]] ([[User talk:OrdinaryGiraffe|talk]]) 21:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Should books on a page be classified under 'Further Reading' or 'In Popular Culture'? ==<br />
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I need some clarification on the best way to classify books on a page: under {{tq|Further reading}} or {{tq|In popular culture}}? Does this classification differ between BLP and Non-BLP pages? [[User:CharlieMehta|Charlie]] ([[User talk:CharlieMehta|talk]]) 02:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hello, {{u|CharlieMehta}}. You can read [[Wikipedia:Further reading]] and [[Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content]] for additional guidance. Here is an example: If a respected historian writes a widely reviewed new book about [[Harry Truman]], then that may belong in a "Further reading" section. If an author writes a best selling novel with Truman as a major character, then that may belong in an "In popular culture" section. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 02:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::The only other factor is that BLP pages require extra care and caution. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 02:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] Thanks for the clarity. The example you gave clears much of the doubt I had. [[User:CharlieMehta|Charlie]] ([[User talk:CharlieMehta|talk]]) 11:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Small arrow pointing to the left ==<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
While editing, I have seen [https://imgur.com/a/daev2RG this] symbol in the VisualEditor. I don't know what it means, and it cannot be copied to my clipboard. Can someone explain what that is?<br />
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Thank you. [[User:EatingCarBatteries|EatingCarBatteries]] ([[User talk:EatingCarBatteries|talk]]) 02:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:EatingCarBatteries|EatingCarBatteries]]: Those are [[carriage return]] symbols. They should correspond to single new lines made in source editor. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 02:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Help please ==<br />
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Two editors have a history of wholesale replacement of the article about the book ''[[The Wonder Weeks]].'' I sure would appreciate an experienced editor helping to resolve the matter. <br />
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It was reverted to a stub most recently in December 2023. In February, I started revising that version. I built carefully, step by step, correcting factually wrong information and adding relevant information. Today MVoltz reverted the entirety to her version of December 2023, without notice on the Talk page. I had previously documented each substantial point on the Talk page. It is my perception that their rejoinders there either failed to recognize those points or were unresponsive to them, but you can judge that for yourself.<br />
<br />
One editor, Pizzaman, has demonstrated on the Talk page that he is importing material from the Dutch Wikipedia community. Apparently, according to the article on the [[Dutch Wikipedia]], this sort of edit warring is kind of the norm there. He and MVoltz seem to be upholding somebody's ill feelings about a controversy involving one author of the book which took place in that country 26 years ago. You can read what I think is an NPOV account of that controversy in my recently reverted February version. The current version (reverted to 2023) is one-sided by omission, and IMO verges on the scurrilous. <br />
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I am at a loss how to engage these two editors in good faith discussion. I am reluctant to take it to the admin noticeboard. I think it would be much better for one or more other editors to take a look and help establish a factually accurate, NPOV article. I will try to be attentive but I have an extended family funeral gathering coming up, and Wikipedia has a small part in my life. I would be most happy to have other eyes looking to the accuracy and NPOV of this article. [[User:Bn|Bn]] ([[User talk:Bn|talk]]) 04:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{re|Bn}} The article talk page is hard to follow. Current discussions seems to be intermingled with older discussions, and many posts are very long and detailed. Since it seems you cannot get consensus through discussion on the talk page, look at [[WP:DR]] for guidance on how to resolve the dispute. Do not engage in an edit war. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 04:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hi @[[User:Bn|Bn]], I'm afraid I think the shorter version is considerably clearer. I agree that there is a clear bias in the article against the content of the book; this is pretty normal on wikipedia for topics that are considered "fringe" - see [[WP:FRINGE]]. I do think it would be helpful if the article were expanded, but at a skim through the different versions of the article, it looks to me like most of what's in the current version should stay. I ''do'' think people have been pretty rude to you in the course of the talk page discussions, but you also appear to have baselessly accused another editor of having a COI, which isn't very kind either. If you would like to open a formal process that isn't ANI, you could try [[WP:DR]]. There's also [[WP:3O]] but I'm not sure it's exactly in scope, since the dispute at times involves more than two editors. <br />
:Werdna gave you very good advice, at the bottom of the article's talk page. If you can't see why statements like "it gives parents practical guidance to help their baby's cognitive development" or "This book derives from almost five decades of research" are not neutral statements of fact in this case, I think it's time for you to step away from the article. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[Edit clash] {{U|Bn}}, I've removed your email address from your message above. You're free to set up your account here in such a way as to allow people to email you. If they take this option, then when mailing you for the first time (via Wikipedia) they won't be shown your address. (This is good, as a small but significant minority of the small number who email me appear to be unhinged, and when I, very deliberately, don't respond, they give up. It's not a good idea to divulge your email address in any other way here, especially when you're in a content dispute. ¶ This page is not the right place for discussing content disputes, but anyway I took a quick look at [[Talk:The Wonder Weeks]] and sampled from the wall of text that I encountered there. The arguments appeared to be over content; I didn't notice any name-calling or other childishness. If you added a lot of substantive points, arguing for each, but got what has seemed to you to be an uncomprehending, unthinking or otherwise seriously defective response, I suggest that you repeat yourself, but to do so only one point at a time, acknowledging that you have made the same point earlier and briefly explaining why you're saying it a second time. Perhaps (i) Proposal; (ii) Position in the discussion above where you made the proposal before; (iv) Reasoning for the proposal; (v) Arguments against any arguments already posted against. When this first (re)proposal has been digested, and not before, set off on the second one. Et cetera. ¶ I note that you say that the article in its current state "verges on the scurrilous", and that the author of the book that's the subject of the article [[:nl:Frans Plooij|is described as still alive]]. You may wish to bring up the matter on [[WP:BLPN]]. Whether you take the matter there or to a different noticeboard, please don't take it to more than one, and please say here where you have taken it. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 05:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you, your replies are helpful in different ways. I very much appreciate your responding, even though as you say @Hoary this is not the appropriate place. I do confess to feeling intemperate, at the very late end of a long work day, to find my good faith revision (22 separate edits) supplanted apparently on the assumption that I was doing the same thing as she, copying and pasting an earlier revision over the current one. I should think the appropriate thing would have been to edit it.<br />
::&nbsp;<br />
::@Hoary, your suggestion is best, negotiating one point at a time on the Talk page. There is a long list of points of agreement and disagreement that I posted in Talk in 2021 under Toward NPOV Consensus. There was no reply to any of them. One at a time may fare better.<br />
::&nbsp;<br />
::Aside from what's unsupported by or contradicted in RS, the highest priority is to represent both sides of the controversy. This has several aspects, including:<br />
::&nbsp;<br />
::* Refutation vs. failure to replicate<br />
::* Fired vs. resigned near end of contract<br />
::* Unscientific vs. an episode within a century-long scientific controversy still ongoing<br />
::&nbsp;<br />
::I'll nibble at it when I have time.<br />
::&nbsp; [[User:Bn|Bn]] ([[User talk:Bn|talk]]) 22:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Second efn won't work ==<br />
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Guys, I feel stupid because I used <nowiki>{{efn}}</nowiki> twice in an article and the second one gives a bogus error. It doesn't do that in any other example article I see and recall editing. Please double check [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dearborn,_Michigan#cite_ref-20 here]! Thanks! — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Smuckola|Smuckola]][[User talk:Smuckola|(talk)]]</span> 04:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: {{re|Smuckola}} The second one has = in it, which requires special handling. See the note at the top of {{t|efn}} [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 05:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::{{reply|RudolfRed}} Awesome. I googled this, and I was reading a Talk page comment about the cite errors, which talked about equals signs, but I didn't realize this. ;) Thanks. — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Smuckola|Smuckola]][[User talk:Smuckola|(talk)]]</span> 05:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Submit Article means it is about to be published, what about the article that still work in progress? ==<br />
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Submit Article means it is about to be published, what about the article that still work in progress? <br />
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Can I receive feedback while still working on it, even better, Wikipedia is an open source so anyone can contribute right? So, How do I "submit for feedback" not "submit for publishing" as I know it is not ready since it is work in progress, and not having article deletion all the time. [[User:Unsteadyflyingfish|Unsteadyflyingfish]] ([[User talk:Unsteadyflyingfish|talk]]) 05:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Clicking on "Submit article" means calling for a reviewer to decided whether it should be published. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that "Wikipedia is an open source", but yes, any editor (or more strictly any editor who isn't blocked, etc) can contribute to a draft. There's nothing in particular that you need to do in order to get feedback. Here's my feedback. First, [[Draft:Vasanta Group (Real Estate)]] is pretty close to [[Draft:Vasanta Group]] (already deleted twice in November '23 as clearly promotional). The newer draft:<br />
::[https://www.vasanta.co.id/ Vasanta Group], a prominent Indonesian real estate and lifestyle development company headquartered in [[Tangerang]], [[Banten]], has made significant contributions to the nation's real estate landscape. Established in 2015 by a group of visionary founders, namely Tri Ramadi, Agnus Suryadi, Erick Wihardja, Nicholas Hum, and Denny Asalim, the company's growth has been characterized by innovation, a commitment to quality, and ethical business practices.<br />
:The older one:<br />
::[https://www.vasanta.co.id/ Vasanta Group] is an Indonesian [[real estate]] and lifestyle development company headquartered in [[Tangerang]], [[Banten]]. Founded in 2015, The company has been active in Indonesia's real estate sector. Its founders, including Tri Ramadi, Agnus Suryadi, Erick Wihardja, Nicholas Hum, and Denny Asalim, have diverse backgrounds and experience s in the real estate industry.<br />
:You have succeeded in turning down the promotionalism, however. Still, your new draft is closer still to [[Draft:Vasanta Group (Real Estate)]] as created by you and deleted in January '24:<br />
::[https://www.vasanta.co.id/ Vasanta Group] is an Indonesian [[real estate]] and lifestyle development company headquartered in [[Tangerang]], [[Banten]]. Founded in 2015, the company has played a significant role in Indonesia's real estate sector. Its founders, including Tri Ramadi, Agnus Suryadi, Erick Wihardja, Nicholas Hum, and Denny Asalim, have diverse backgrounds and extensive experience in the real estate industry.<br />
:And a question: Are you perhaps an employee of the Vasanta Group? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 06:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Archiving references ==<br />
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Most references here are archived on archive.org, but is it okay to use archive.is? [[User:Kk.urban|Kk.urban]] ([[User talk:Kk.urban|talk]]) 06:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hi @[[User:Kk.urban|Kk.urban]], you will probably find the info at [[WP:ARCHIVEIS]] helpful. It contains some comparisons between Archive.today (the main site accessible through archive.is) and other arching sites including Wayback. '''[[User:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">Unexpected</span><span style="color:#757575;">lydian<sup>♯4</sup></span>]][[User talk:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">talk<sup>‽</sup></span>]]''' 07:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Naming a tweet ==<br />
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How should I name a twitter post? [[User:Abigbagel|Abigbagel]] ([[User talk:Abigbagel|talk]]) 06:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Please see [[Template:Cite tweet/doc]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 07:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Citing a YouTube video ==<br />
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I'm looking to contribute to a page on Lorentz force with a bit on popular culture (a game called Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance), but since I can't directly cite the game, I'm trying to cite one of the trailers for the game. However, when I was trying this out on my sandbox page, I got a message telling me the YouTube citation was blacklisted. How should I proceed? Should I look for some other source to cite?<br />
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Thanks. [[User:ThatThing1911|ThatThing1911]] ([[User talk:ThatThing1911|talk]]) 09:54, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:ThatThing1911|ThatThing1911]] Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Assuming you mean [[Lorentz force]]. In short, do not add pop-cult stuff just because it exists. What you need is a an ''independent'' [[WP:RS]] that noticed the game had Lorentz force in it and bothered to comment on it. And even if you do have that, someone might think including it fails [[WP:PROPORTION]]. I remember adding this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=P_versus_NP_problem&diff=776996047&oldid=776090593], but it was removed at some point, and that's not unreasonable.<br />
:See [[Metatron#In_popular_culture]] or [[Tardigrade#In_popular_culture]] for an example of the kind of sources that may be acceptable. Hope this helps. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 10:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{ping|ThatThing1911}} It's because YouTube short links with "<code><nowiki>youtu.be</nowiki></code>" are blacklisted. Use <code><nowiki>youtube.com</nowiki></code> links instead. Also check [[WP:RSPYOUTUBE]]. [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 13:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::And Gråbergs Gråa Sång is right, too. [[WP:IPC|"In popular culture" content]] should be usually cited to reliable sources independent of the game "that establish its significance to the article's subject". [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 13:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Abortions ==<br />
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WTH is Trump dictating ban to abortions <br />
when abortion is needed to save women's life?<br />
This is a decision made by a women and then her doctor!<br />
My first pregnancy was a result of forced sex, aka rape.<br />
It was in London, England and if the abortion was not performed it would have resulted in my death and thus death of unborn child.<br />
Tell Republicans that decision to abort has to be made between a women and her doctor!<br />
Tell them to STOP! [[User:Gzubicka|Gzubicka]] ([[User talk:Gzubicka|talk]]) 11:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Do you have a question ''about using Wikipedia'', [[User:Gzubicka|Gzubicka]]? (That's what this page is for.) -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I remember a similar post... Last week maybe? It's not from the same user looking in their contribs. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 12:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::OP blocked as NOTHERE, after looking at their edits. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::[[Wikipedia:Advocacy]] explains why this type of impassioned commentary is not appropriate on Wikipedia, although it is welcomed on many other websites. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 18:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== How to upload this picture ==<br />
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Hi there i wanted to ask how could i upload this Picture [https://www.jinnahpk.com/2010/12/quaid-e-azam-inspecting-guard-of-honour.html?m=1|Muhammad Ali Jinnah Inspecting Guard Honour Baloch regiment], which i wanted to use in the article. How can i upload this on Wikicommons without any copyright? [[User:Rahim231|Rahim231]] ([[User talk:Rahim231|talk]]) 12:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello and welcome. That likely depends on copyright law regarding images in Pakistan, depending on when an image enters the public domain. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
: See [[:c:Com:Pakistan]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Changes to articles ==<br />
<br />
what are the stipulations required for changes to be accepted? [[Special:Contributions/2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039|2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039]] ([[User talk:2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039|talk]]) 12:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. We can give you a better answer if you tell what sort of change you wish to make. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Hi! Thank you for the welcome! I was wondering just in general once an entry is made, how do you go about editing it in the future? [[Special:Contributions/2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039|2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039]] ([[User talk:2603:6080:ADF0:95A0:4A1:CDAE:63DA:7039|talk]]) 16:33, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::Sorry, that's not much clearer. Is [[WP:OWN]] what you're after? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:It depends on the situation. Start with reading [[WP:TUTORIAL]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Article review for over 2 Month ... ==<br />
<br />
hello, i have an article that has not been checked or released for two months. what can i do? (User: Don-miguel-de)<br />
[[Draft:CIVIS Media Foundation]] [[User:Don-miguel-de|Don-miguel-de]] ([[User talk:Don-miguel-de|talk]]) 12:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:It was declined today. Drafts are reviewed in no particular order by volunteers, working on what they want when they choose to. There is no way to guarantee a speedy review. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 13:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Editing a text further before the second review? (and bullet lists in the reference list) ==<br />
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Hi to everyone, <br />
<br />
I created my first Wikipedia page a few months ago. The first review rejected it because I did not add enough sources and the text was not encyclopaedic enough. About ten days ago I made improvements and pressed the "publish" button again. As far as I understand, the text should now be sent for review again. As I now realised, an editor made substantial edits to the text in these past days. They shortened it, removed several contents, and included many new references. While those edits improved the text, they made me see I could add other edits to improve it even further with more sources and specific contents. <br />
<br />
My questions is: should/can I go ahead and add my edits on top of those made by the Wikipedia editor, or should I hold off my edits until the article goes through review?<br />
<br />
I also would like to know how I can include a bullet list in the list of references.<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for your help!<br />
<br />
Best wishes, [[User:Simonescoffier|Simonescoffier]] ([[User talk:Simonescoffier|talk]]) 13:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Yes, feel free to keep improving it as the review is pending; currently there are many many drafts pending review, so the more improvements you make, the better chances are of it getting improved.{{pb}}The list of references is properly formatted, you don't need to edit it.{{pb}}Cheers, [[User:Cocobb8|'''<span style="color:purple">Coco</span><span style="color:green">bb8</span>''']] (💬 [[User talk:Cocobb8|talk]] • ✏️ [[Special:Contributions/Cocobb8|contribs]]) 15:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Template for WikiProject requested move notifications ==<br />
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What template do people use to issue notifications on WikiProjects of the creation of a requested move that might be relevant to the WikiProject? I see [[Template:RM notice]], but this doesn't seem to produce the same text that I most commonly see actually used on WikiProject pages, which looks something like this:<br />
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[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Some Page#Requested move 12 March 2024]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.<br />
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'''By contrast''', [[Template:RM notice]] produces the following:<br />
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[[File:Information.svg|40px|left]]<br />
An editor has requested that [[:Some Page]] be moved to another page, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You &#32;are invited to participate in [[{{TALKPAGENAME:Some Page}}#Requested move 12 March 2024|the move discussion]].<!-- from Template:RM notice--><br />
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This later format, while communicating more or less the same thing, isn't what I actually see people using. So what's the template that produces the former (and why do people prefer it)? [[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]] ([[User talk:Brusquedandelion|talk]]) 13:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Brusquedandelion|Brusquedandelion]] it looks like it's wording used in the user script rmCloser [[User:TheTVExpert/rmCloser]]. [[User:Nthep|Nthep]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 16:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== The review process ==<br />
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In a discussion I had with a reviewer of an article I have drafted, the reviewer mentioned what "another reviewer" might do. This leads me to ask: ''Will there be "another reviewer"? How many reviews should I expect? Who would have the final say on whether to accept this article?''<br />
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I'm afraid I'm finding Wikipedia's review process a bit opaque, and I would greatly appreciate clarification of this. Thanks. [[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] ([[User talk:Johsebb|talk]]) 18:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hello and welcome. If you resubmit your draft, another reviewer will review it. As long as the draft is not rejected(only declined) you may keep resubmitting it for reviews- though it will be expected that you make progress towards resolving the concerns of the reviewers. There is no particular individual who will "have the final say"; any reviewer that feels the draft is acceptable will accept it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 18:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] ([[User talk:Johsebb|talk]]) 20:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]]! The AFC system puts all submissions into a pile. You have not currently submitted your draft, but it was done twice previously and each time reviewed by different reviewers. You are expected to take the feedback from previous reviews and submit again when you feel you've addressed the issues. Provided you are not disruptive about it, there is no limit as to how many times you may resubmit. As long as the draft is among the submissions, it's likely to be looked at by multiple reviewers, this being a volunteer project. Most may skip, some may comment, finally someone will click the accept or decline buttons and you're back to looking at the feedback and improving the draft for another attempt. Here's what's important: You need to bring evidence that the topic you are writing about meets [[WP:GNG]]. Since you are writing about a topic in mathematics, it should be sufficient if you can show that it has been investigated and published about by multiple independent mathematicians (either the mathematicians should be reputable or the publication needs to be). Better still if someone has summarised the state of developments in the field in an independent review work or textbook. Once you have a notable topic, only the most egregious content problems may result in the draft getting declined. Your draft should not contain copyright violations or violations of the [[WP:BLP|policy on biography of living persons]]. And your draft needs to adhere to the core content policies, [[WP:V|verifiability]], [[WP:NOR|no original research]] and [[WP:NPOV|a neutral point of view]], to the extent that is reasonable to expect from new editors. You may refer to [[MOS:MATH]] for some advice about writing better articles, but take the gist of it, you need not attempt to follow every advice as though it were a rule. Regards!<span id="Usedtobecool:1710270047516:WikipediaFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;'''[[User:Usedtobecool|Usedtobecool]]'''&nbsp;[[User talk:Usedtobecool|☎️]] 19:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</span><br />
::Thanks very much for the detail. [[User:Johsebb|Johsebb]] ([[User talk:Johsebb|talk]]) 20:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Dealing with copyright infringement from 2007 ==<br />
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What's the best way to deal with copyright infringement that happened June 1, 2007 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brandon_Hein&diff=prev&oldid=135008476]? The vast majority of the content is taken verbatim from <nowiki>Murderpedia.org</nowiki> (currently blacklisted here, though I can post the full link if needed). Over 100 edits later, I'm not sure how you would identify which ones need redacting. In the meantime, I've just deleted the offending material from the article. Thanks. <small><sub>''signed'', </sub></small>[[User:Willondon|Willondon]] ([[User Talk:Willondon|talk]]) 19:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hi {{u|Willondon}}. Are you sure that Wikipedia copied Murderpedia, and not vice versa? The Murderpedia entry for Hein uses Wikipedia as a citation. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 19:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Looking at Earwig, there's actually a far more pressing matter, shown [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Brandon_Hein&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&noskip=1 here]. I don't believe Murderpedia even gets a passing mention due to the level of dilution almost 20 years will bring. <br />
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:While it's understandable that the rating is high due to the massive quote, it's less understandable in regards to the amount of red outside of it. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 19:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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::Thanks for the heads up. When I was checking what was and wasn't copied, I got to the end of the MP article to see "Wikipedia.org". What a mess. In the original post (cited above), the first part is almost completely unsourced, save for the official Appeals Court documents. Well at least there's not the hassle of dealing with a copyright infringement. I'm guessing the best approach is just to get rid of everything that isn't sourced. Not sure what use to make of the Copyvio Detector results. <small><sub>''signed'', </sub></small>[[User:Willondon|Willondon]] ([[User Talk:Willondon|talk]]) 20:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::{{u|Willondon}} While much of the article is not referenced, it dates back to at least 2007. A more conservative approach to massive deletion would be to tag the article at the top as needing references. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 20:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Yes, that would normally be my first approach, except the content has been challenged by user {{u|MaxamillionWeatherby}}, on the grounds that it is incorrect and/or obsolete ''and'' harmful to the living person the article is about. They've also mentioned an inability to bring the article up to date because sources haven't given coverage to the story developments some twenty+ years later. Anyway, I continue to discuss it on their [[User Talk:MaxamillionWeatherby|talk page]]. So I'm satisfied with the conclusion of this thread here. Thanks again for all your insights. <small><sub>''signed'', </sub></small>[[User:Willondon|Willondon]] ([[User Talk:Willondon|talk]]) 21:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need help with formatting my user page ==<br />
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I just created my user page, but i would like to catogorize it and make it special, could someone expirenced help me with it? [[User:Lolzer3000|Lolzer3000]] ([[User talk:Lolzer3000|talk]]) 20:22, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:@[[User:Lolzer3000|Lolzer3000]] Welcome to the Teahouse. You may find some useful self-help resources at [[Wikipedia:User page design guide]]. Regards, [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 20:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Mass changes needed for retirement of Drug Information Portal ==<br />
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The National Library of Medicine's Drug Information Portal has been retired, with all information moved to the Library's PubChem database. I think all the links to the Drug Information Portal should be updated to the corresponding article in PubChem. I suspect that someone can set up a bot to do this, but I don't know how. Perhaps someone can point me to instructions to do this or turn this over to someone who already knows how? &mdash; [[User:HowardBGolden|HowardBGolden]] ([[User talk:HowardBGolden|talk]]) 20:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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: {{Ping|HowardBGolden}} You can ask at [[WP:BOTREQ]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 20:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== How dó you cite a Books? ==<br />
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What is the template [[User:Blackmamba31248|Blackmamba31248]] ([[User talk:Blackmamba31248|talk]]) 21:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hi @[[User:Blackmamba31248|Blackmamba31248]], you can find the template for citing books here: [[Template:Cite book]]. You can also cite books quite easy in visual editing mode by clicking the citation button (it looks like this: " ), then selecting 'Manual' and then 'Book'. Hope this helps! '''[[User:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">Unexpected</span><span style="color:#757575;">lydian<sup>♯4</sup></span>]][[User talk:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">talk<sup>‽</sup></span>]]''' 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:@[[User:Blackmamba31248|Blackmamba31248]] Just to add that you can find guidance on adding citations from books and other sources using our [[WP:Source Editor|Source Editor]] at this shortcut: [[WP:REFBEGIN]].<br />
:Alternately, if you prefer using our [[WP:VE|Visual Editor]], see [[WP:REFBEGINVE]]. Hope you find reading either (or both) of these of some help. Regards, [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 22:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Please fix this error ==<br />
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The won template for the Bulletin Awards is not working<br />
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[[The Little Mermaid (2023 film)|The Little Mermaid (2023 film) - Wikipedia]] [[User:Rincemermaid|Rincemermaid]] ([[User talk:Rincemermaid|talk]]) 22:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Hi [[User:Rincemermaid|Rincemermaid]]. Fixed by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Little_Mermaid_(2023_film)&diff=prev&oldid=1213419434]. See "Important" at [[Template:Won]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== How can I change an AFD nom to a RFD? ==<br />
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I nominated an article called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sangrana Battle of Sangrana] for deletion. I now realize, after an editor pointed it out on the deletion discussion page, that it should have been a redirect. Is there any way to cancel the AFD nom and replace it with an RFD? Thanks in advance. [[User:Suthasianhistorian8|Southasianhistorian8]] ([[User talk:Suthasianhistorian8|talk]]) 01:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Suthasianhistorian8|Suthasianhistorian8]] you can either wait until the AfD closes, at which the closing administrator will redirect it, or withdraw the AfD nomination and [[WP:BLAR|blank and redirect]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1213416130User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-12T22:40:09Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from Californiawriter on Copenhagen Fashion Week (20:37, 12 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
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I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
<br />
I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
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Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
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<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
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This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
<br />
Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
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Nice to e-meet you.<br />
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I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
<br />
Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
<br />
I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] (14:18, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Which tools should I use to determine if an edit is vandalism so I can revert only if it was determined to be vandalism? --[[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 14:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] is editing deliberately intended to interfere with the encyclopedia. For example, [[Special:Diff/1212769810|this revert]] was likely unjustified since the editor was adding sourced material. Meanwhile [[Special:Diff/1212769194|this revert]] was justified since the editor was trying to add promotional content to the article, obstructing the creation of an encyclopedia.<br />
:There are no 'tools' (read: AI) that can 100% determine if an edit is vandalism, but you can use a filtered view of [[Special:RecentChanges]], for example using the tag #possible vandalism. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Okay, thanks [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]]! [[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 20:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] (23:45, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Sahrul Gunawan<br />
萨鲁尔*古纳万<br />
Born 16 August 2000 (age 23)<br />
Kp.Mariuk.RT02,RW02.Palabuhanratu, Indonesia<br />
Other names Esther Sa<br />
Alma mater Al-balruni alumni<br />
Occupations <br />
Actresssinger<br />
Years active 2016–present<br />
Agent Huace Film & TV<br />
Height 169 cm (5 ft 7 in)<br />
Musical career<br />
Genres <br />
C-pop<br />
Instrument(s) Vocals<br />
Years active 2020–2021<br />
Labels <br />
iQIYI[a]<br />
Formerly of <br />
THE9<br />
Template:Infobox Indonesia --[[User:Sahrul guanawan|Sahrul guanawan]] ([[User talk:Sahrul guanawan|talk]]) 23:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] on [[Copenhagen Fashion Week]] (20:37, 12 March 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, do we use oxford commas in articles? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 20:37, 12 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] according to [[WP:Oxford comma]], it is used sometimes and left out at other times. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:40, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jass3el&diff=1213350524User talk:Jass3el2024-03-12T14:34:09Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Nõo Meat Factory|Nõo Meat Factory]] (March 12) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by Sungodtemple were:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!--<br />
-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission appears to [[WP:Spam#Advertisements masquerading as articles|read more like an advertisement]] than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]], and should refer to a range of [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent, reliable, published sources]], not just to materials produced by the creator of the subject being discussed. This is important so that the article can meet Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability policy]] and the [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] of the subject can be established. If you still feel that this subject is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, please rewrite your submission to comply with these policies.|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
-->&nbsp;The comment the reviewer left was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|blue|3=[[WP:IS|Independent coverage]] is needed to demonstrate notability.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Nõo Meat Factory]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:N%C3%B5o_Meat_Factory '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:N%C3%B5o_Meat_Factory '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Jass3el'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:N%C3%B5o_Meat_Factory&diff=1213350522Draft:Nõo Meat Factory2024-03-12T14:34:07Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: v - Submission is improperly sourced and adv - Submission reads like an advertisement (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|v|u=Jass3el|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240312143407|reason2=adv|ts=20240312142237}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{AFC comment|1=[[WP:IS|Independent coverage]] is needed to demonstrate notability. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)}}<br />
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{{Short description|Largest meat production company in Estonia}}<br />
{{Draft topics|northern-europe|business-and-economics}}<br />
{{AfC topic|org}}<br />
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'''Nõo Meat Factory (Nõo Lihatööstus)''' is the largest meat manufacturer based on Estonian capital, which employs nearly 250 people.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |date=2022-04-06 |title=About Us - Nõo Lihatööstus |url=https://noo.ee/en/about-us/ |access-date=2024-03-12 |language=en-US}}</ref> Thus, Nõo Meat Factory is among the most important employers in Southern Estonia. The company’s brand stores are located in Nõo and Tartu.<br />
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The product range of Nõo Lihatööstus includes over 600 meat products: raw meat, minced meats, wieners and sausages, hams and roulades, pâtés, snacks and various seasonal products that are made in [[Nõo]] near the city of Tartu. Nõo products are made from fresh chilled Estonian raw materials. Apart from the Estonian market company exports its products to Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, and elsewhere. Nõo Lihatööstus is a member of the Estonian Food Industry Association.<ref>{{Cite web |title=NÕO LIHATÖÖSTUS OÜ {{!}} Eesti Kaubandus-Tööstuskoda |url=https://www.koda.ee/en/node/10951 |access-date=2024-03-12 |website=www.koda.ee}}</ref><br />
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Nõo Lihatööstus is a family business and a winner of various Estonian and international product and business awards. Among others, Nõo Lihatööstus earned the Family Business of the Year award from [[Enterprise Estonia|EAS]], the Estonian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and the Estonian Employers’ Confederation.<ref name=":0" /><br />
<br />
== History<ref name=":0" /> ==<br />
Nõo Lihatööstus was founded as a family business in 1992 on the premises of the sausage shop of the former Nõo collective farm. The first products were produced on August 1, 1992 – 100 kilos of Nõo roulade were manufactured per day. Soon the company opened its first shop in Tartu and also sold its products in the markets and fairs.<br />
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* From January 1994 until July 1995 nearly 40% of products were sold across the border, therefore arose the necessity to expand production facilities. A new product storage room and distribution room were built. The pan-Estonian sales network was developed, with a focus on Tallinn.<br />
* In 1997 [[Äksi]] slaughterhouse was opened, which enabled the company to use solely its own meat and improve the raw material quality.<br />
* In 1999 the new finished product slicing and packaging department was established, along with storage and delivery premises and investments were made into new equipment which allowed the company to obtain a new activity permit from the Veterinary Office. On December 1 of the same year the new Lihavürst brand was launched.<br />
* In September of 2002 Nõo Lihatööstus opened the new 1,000 square meter production facility and together with the old premises the production area reached a total of 2,200 square meters. The total investment total was 45 million Estonian kroons. A new packaging line was purchased for 12 million kroons. 10 million kroons were invested in new smoking ovens and the only [[Salami|raw salami]] producing machine in Estonia. Completion of the new premises allowed to increase production capacity by 50%.<br />
* In 2002 five Nõo Lihatööstus products were awarded with the Approved Estonian Taste symbol: Nõo roulade, Nõo fat wieners, tongue sausage, Timmu roulade, and Vienna pocket.<br />
* In 2006 the yearly turnover of the company for the first time exceeded 100 million kroons. Export to Latvia was launched.<br />
* In 2007 Nõo Lihatööstus production premises extension was completed: another 3,017 square meters were added to the existing 2,400 square meters. This also resulted in the expansion of Nõo Lihatööstus product range: the new technology allowed production of smoked sausages, salamis, and snacks.<br />
* In 2009 export to Lithuania was launched.<br />
* In 2010 due to the growing demand a new building was constructed in a very short period of time. It allowed to increase production capacity of smoked sausages and snacks. To the company also received a food safety management system certificate corresponding to the ISO 22000:2005 standard.<br />
* In 2016, construction of the new third production building was started which cost 5 million euros.<br />
* In 2017-2020 the company invested a total of 15 million euros into production premises and equipment.<br />
* In 2021 Nõo Lihatööstus was named the best family business in Estonia.<br />
* In 2022 Nõo Lihatööstus was the first meat manufacturer in the Baltics to launch the production of grill cheese, which was immediately praised by chefs and juries on various local and international competitions. In the same year Nõo Lihatööstus was awarded the prestigious “Food Achievement of the Year” (“Aasta Toidutegu”) title<br />
* 2020-... Massive investments into production continue. Nõo Lihatööstus is the largest and most innovative meat manufacturer in Estonia based on the local capital, providing jobs to nearly 250 people.<br />
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== Products ==<br />
The product range of Nõo Lihatööstus includes over 600 meat products. The company deems it important to use only high-quality meat and does not use the nutrient-poor meat mass obtained from cutting meat leftovers and bones. In product development the company closely cooperates with the leading nutrition experts, top chefs and universities, as well as – for example – with Fitlap nutrition program and BBQ Symphony.<br />
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== External links ==<br />
[http://www.noo.ee/en/ Nõo Meat Factory homepage in English]<br />
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[[:Category:Manufacturing companies of Estonia]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FFox168&diff=1213176487User talk:FFox1682024-03-11T14:19:07Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been rejected (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:FFox168|FFox168]] (March 11) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #F99; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission has been rejected. If you have further questions, you can ask at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:FFox168 '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help]].<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason<!-- pluralize "reason" --><!--empty--> left by Sungodtemple was: This topic is [[Wikipedia:Notability|not sufficiently notable for inclusion in Wikipedia]].<!--<br />
--<br />
--><br />
{{clear}}<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC reject--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''FFox168'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=We_Don%27t_Care_(Kanye_West_song)&diff=1213082777We Don't Care (Kanye West song)2024-03-11T01:58:04Z<p>Sungodtemple: Declining submission: v - Submission is improperly sourced (AFCH)</p>
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<div>{{AFC submission|d|v|u=Tobyphones|ns=118|decliner=Sungodtemple|declinets=20240311015804|ts=20240311011916}} <!-- Do not remove this line! --><br />
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{{Draft topics|music}}<br />
{{AfC topic|media}}<br />
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{{Infobox song<br />
| name = We Don't Care<br />
| type = song<br />
| artist = Kanye West<br />
| album = The College Dropout<br />
| studio = Sony Music Studios<br />
| genre = Hip hop<br />
| length = 4:00<br />
| label = Roc-A-Fella<br />
Def Jam<br />
| writer = Kanye West, Ross Vannelli<br />
| producer = Kanye West<br />
}}<br />
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"'''We Don't Care'''" is a song by American [[Hip hop music|hip hop]] artist [[Kanye West]]. It is the second song on his debut album, [[The College Dropout]]. The song was written by West and Ross Vannelli. The song contains a sample of "I Just Wanna Stop" by [[The Jimmy Castor Bunch]] from their eponymous album "Jimmy Castor Bunch". The song was certified gold by [[Recording Industry Association of America|The Recording Industry Association of America]] on March 9th, 2022.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<!-- Inline citations added to your article will automatically display here. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:REFB for instructions on how to add citations. --><br />
{{reflist}}</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tobyphones&diff=1213082776User talk:Tobyphones2024-03-11T01:58:04Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
<br />
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:We Don't Care (Kanye West song)|We Don't Care (Kanye West song)]] (March 11) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
<br />
{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!--<br />
--<br />
--> Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:We Don't Care (Kanye West song)]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:We_Don%27t_Care_(Kanye_West_song) '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:We_Don%27t_Care_(Kanye_West_song) '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
<br />
[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
<br />
{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Tobyphones'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1212797841User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-09T16:52:52Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from TheMadScienFish23 (14:18, 9 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
<br />
I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
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Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
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<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
<br />
This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
<br />
Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
<br />
Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
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Nice to e-meet you.<br />
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I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
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Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
<br />
I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] (14:18, 9 March 2024) ==<br />
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Which tools should I use to determine if an edit is vandalism so I can revert only if it was determined to be vandalism? --[[User:TheMadScienFish23|<b><span style="color:red; text-shadow: 3px 1px 1px yellow">TheMadScien🐠23</span></b>]] ([[User talk:TheMadScienFish23|💬]]) 14:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TheMadScienFish23|TheMadScienFish23]] [[WP:VAND|vandalism]] is editing deliberately intended to interfere with the encyclopedia. For example, [[Special:Diff/1212769810|this revert]] was likely unjustified since the editor was adding sourced material. Meanwhile [[Special:Diff/1212769194|this revert]] was justified since the editor was trying to add promotional content to the article, obstructing the creation of an encyclopedia.<br />
:There are no 'tools' (read: AI) that can 100% determine if an edit is vandalism, but you can use a filtered view of [[Special:RecentChanges]], for example using the tag #possible vandalism. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&diff=1212643016User talk:Sungodtemple2024-03-08T22:17:37Z<p>Sungodtemple: /* Question from Constant-ssd (21:17, 8 March 2024) */ Reply</p>
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== Question from [[User:Mrupsich|Mrupsich]] (19:14, 31 December 2023) ==<br />
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Hello, i'm trying to add a couple of names (Jeff Pintar and Phillip Romero) to the "roster" section of the 1991 Fresno State Baseball wiki page but they are appearing at top of section instead of in the section. Can you please help/advise how to fix this so names appear in order with other names? Thank you. --[[User:Mrupsich|Mrupsich]] ([[User talk:Mrupsich|talk]]) 19:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Mrupsich|Mrupsich]] According to [[:Template:Baseball roster]], you can probably add a new player right before the footer of the roster. Make sure to avoid placing line breaks in the middle of the template as this will break them. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thankyou. I tried this and the change is showing at the top of the section. Would you be able to look at it and make the change? Thank you. [[User:Mrupsich|Mrupsich]] ([[User talk:Mrupsich|talk]]) 16:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Mrupsich|Mrupsich]] the problem is that there are line breaks within the template name which breaks them. You have to use a space not a line break. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Mdlkl|Mdlkl]] (16:42, 1 January 2024) ==<br />
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hello, Mdlkl here! i was wondering , is wikkipedi a sort of search site? --[[User:Mdlkl|Mdlkl]] ([[User talk:Mdlkl|talk]]) 16:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Mdlkl|Mdlkl]] no it is not a [[search engine]]. It does have a [[Special:search|search]] feature though. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oldsmobubblered1966|Oldsmobubblered1966]] (14:43, 2 January 2024) ==<br />
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I want to help get the truth out about what really happened on January 6th at our U.S. Capitol. It was an inside job by the deep state and the democrats and most of the republicans. --[[User:Oldsmobubblered1966|Oldsmobubblered1966]] ([[User talk:Oldsmobubblered1966|talk]]) 14:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Oldsmobuublered1966|Oldsmobuublered1966]] see [[WP:NOTADVOCACY]] - Wikipedia is not the place to advocate for your movement. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 02:49:02, 3 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by Eleodes ==<br />
{{anchor|02:49:02, 3 January 2024 review of submission by Eleodes}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=Eleodes|ts=02:49:02, 3 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:Nancy_E._McIntyre}}<br />
<br />
<!-- Start of message --><br />
Draft page was rejected based on "This draft's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article. In summary, the draft needs to<br />
* meet any of the eight academic-specific criteria"...<br />
<br />
But it does meet criteria 1 (from Google Scholar as well as from https://today.ttu.edu/posts/2021/12/Stories/Texas-Tech-Faculty-Members-Rank-Among-Top-Global-Researchers), 2 (received Distinguished Service Award from the International Association for Landscape Ecology-North America), and 6 (was President of the International Association for Landscape Ecology-North America). Therefore, the rejection from Sungodtemple was not warranted.<br />
<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:Eleodes|Eleodes]] ([[User talk:Eleodes|talk]]) 02:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Eleodes|Eleodes]] having a high citation count '''alone''' is not an indicator of #1, and the International Associate for Landscape Ecology-North America is not a very well-known academic society, as far as I know. (It is not brought up much at AfD, according to a cursory search). Nevertheless, the other decline reason is still relevant. You are welcome to resubmit, of course, but address the problems I have brought up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Could you please define "well-known"? The society has over 500 members at present and is the largest chapter in the world for the discipline of landscape ecology. <br />
::I have endeavored to indicate academic criteria 2 and 6. [[User:Eleodes|Eleodes]] ([[User talk:Eleodes|talk]]) 03:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== How to add a table on the side with approved logo yk? ==<br />
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I want to know if i can make a side table so i can get the ICAO and IATA in there for Draft:Legend Airlines(Romania), Can you edit it so its a table there (no info in it) or can you tell me? [[User:Poyeker|Poyeker]] ([[User talk:Poyeker|talk]]) 14:40, 3 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Poyeker|Poyeker]] see [[Wikipedia:Infobox]]. You probably want to use [[:Template:Infobox airline]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:VishwajeetN03|VishwajeetN03]] (04:57, 5 January 2024) ==<br />
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how to start --[[User:VishwajeetN03|VishwajeetN03]] ([[User talk:VishwajeetN03|talk]]) 04:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:VishwajeetN03|VishwajeetN03]] you can start at your [[Special:Homepage|Newcomer homepage]]. Try to find one or two articles to [[WP:CE|copyedit]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Justin Sane mbandezelo jr|Justin Sane mbandezelo jr]] on [[Talk:Mobicel]] (13:26, 6 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hey mentor,how can I do a citation --[[User:Justin Sane mbandezelo jr|Justin Sane mbandezelo jr]] ([[User talk:Justin Sane mbandezelo jr|talk]]) 13:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Justin Sane mbandezelo jr|Justin Sane mbandezelo jr]] see [[Help:Referencing]] - essentially you want to enclose the reference inside <code><nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki></code> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== My declined draft ==<br />
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You declined my draft saying it needs more resources but the language that I wrote about is my own language that means I don't need recources. [[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] ([[User talk:Jcoego|talk]]) 15:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] the draft must be supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Going off your personal knowledge is not enough - see [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But it's my own language created on my physical notebook. I can't just show my notebook as a [[Reliable source]]. [[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] ([[User talk:Jcoego|talk]]) 15:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] if there are no reliable sources to support the content, then there shouldn't be an article on the topic. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::How many reliable sources do I need to get accepted? [[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] ([[User talk:Jcoego|talk]]) 15:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] read [[WP:YFA]] on how to write your first article, specifically [[WP:GNG]] on notability standards for articles. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::What counts as a reliable source? [[User:Jcoego|Jcoego]] ([[User talk:Jcoego|talk]]) 15:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (03:22, 11 January 2024) ==<br />
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I was an idiot and accidentally made translation of https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%8E%8C%E8%B0%B7%E9%A7%85, as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamaya_station. <- page moved It is now linked to the Japanese article(I figured it out somehow), but I need someone to see if it's not having any weird grammar failures :l --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] the article looks fine on grammar. If you are having trouble using English maybe you should stick to jpwiki ([[WP:CIR]]) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 11 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Need some help with an article. ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you are listed as my assigned mentor. <br />
<br />
I've made several attempts at publishing an article about a musician, with no success. Can you help? [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 14:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] the article has been rejected, meaning it cannot be resubmitted. This means I cannot help you. [[WP:No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability|No amount of editing can overcome a lack of notability]].<br />
:I would recommend started with easier edits to help you understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines - see your [[Special:Homepage|newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have a couple of specific appeals for reconsideration, as it relates to [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)#cite ref-3]] for Musicians and Ensembles.<br />
::'''Criteria 6 - "... is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles..."'''<br />
::This can be demonstrated in at least four ways: <br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::[[Mother Superior (band)]] (see first Paragraph under History)<br />
::[[Dig (band)]] (scroll down to 'Past Members')<br />
::[[Devil Doll (American band)]] (see second paragraph) <br />
::'''Criteria 10 - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a ... notable film,... "'''<br />
::This is evidenced by his work on the documentary film<br />
::[[Echo in the Canyon]] (scroll down to 'Cast', and see Echo in the Canyon band)<br />
::'''Criteria 8 - "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]], [[Juno Award|Juno]], [[Mercury Prize|Mercury]], [[Choice Music Prize|Choice]] or [[Grammis]] award."'''<br />
::He played on all tracks on the Grammy Nominated album 'Somebody Save Me' see [[Sugaray Rayford]] (see first paragraph, last sentence); and by association he received a Grammy nomination for participation.<br />
::He is credited via All Music, which is deemed a credible source https://www.allmusic.com/artist/matt-tecu-mn0000662646#credits<br />
::Please let me know how just one of these facts alone do not qualify him as notable. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 16:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] [[WP:FORUMSHOP|Asking the other parent]] is disruptive. The first step in getting an article un-rejected is by going to the rejecting reviewer's talk page, in this case [[User talk:DoubleGrazing]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:43, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Done. <br />
::::Apologies, i reached out to you since you were identified as my mentor. [[User:Jah98000|Jah98000]] ([[User talk:Jah98000|talk]]) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] (02:58, 17 January 2024) ==<br />
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Good morning Mentor, Compliments of the season. I wrote an article on sandbox and I am finding it difficult to publish. What shall I do and how can I go about it? --[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]] ([[User talk:RexlexRegis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:RexlexRegis|RexlexRegis]], your sandbox ([[User:RexlexRegis/sandbox]]) seemed promotional, so I tagged it for [[WP:G11|speedy deletion]]. Please see [[WP:YFA]] for instructions on writing your first article - [[WP:NOTADVERT|Wikipedia is not a place to advertise someone]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 03:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] (21:00, 19 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, Mentor. I want to create an article about Joseph-Laurent Malaine but have not found how to CREATE an article - only a draft - Im not a new contributor, I know how to write a good article. Must I really go through the long draft process ?? <br />
Thanks for your help. --[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] Although I'm sure you already know this as a longtime contributor, only [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] editors can directly create articles in mainspace. Just use your main account to create the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you for your swift reply. [[User:Rouncival|Rouncival]] ([[User talk:Rouncival|talk]]) 21:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] (05:08, 20 January 2024) ==<br />
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Is there any huge issues with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Deficit_83_Lines ? --[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] it is underreferenced and also contains a part that is untranslated. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Well I'm having trouble finding references from the internet, so either I throw myself in the bookstore or try harder... I don't have doubt s that this is lacking notability however... The jpwiki one relied on a single citations throughout the entire article so I kinda tried... [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::It seems that some citations breaks upon using, resulting in a horrible mess. It happened to me while making [[Taisha Station]] as well, although someone seems to have used a tool to repair it. [[User:AlphaBetaGammsh|AlphaBetaGammsh]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGammsh|talk]]) 05:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] on [[Mangodi]] (15:42, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello --[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] ([[User talk:Yesweram|talk]]) 15:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Yesweram|Yesweram]] hello! Do you have any questions? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (17:30, 23 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how can I add pictures on templates? --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]], the mechanism is the same as adding a picture on any other page ([[Help:Pictures]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Request on 01:42:02, 28 January 2024 for assistance on [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|AfC]] submission by NyanKatGrrrl ==<br />
{{anchor|01:42:02, 28 January 2024 review of submission by NyanKatGrrrl}}<br />
{{Lafc|username=NyanKatGrrrl|ts=01:42:02, 28 January 2024|declinedtalk=Draft:IOSYS_discography}}<br />
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<!-- Start of message --><br />
"A Google Sheets file is insufficient sourcing. Anyone can make and publish one."<br />
Well, it's an official sheet listed on IOSYS's website. At first I cited the web page it was listed on (https://www.iosysos.com/discography.html) but got denied, now I cite the sheet directly and get denied again, how am I supposed to cite it?<br />
<!-- End of message -->[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 01:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] the main problem with the draft is, you need to make sure it satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability criteria for lists]]. An official sheet does not contribute to notability, as it is not an [[WP:42|independent source]]. Essentially, you need to find [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth]] sources that discuss the '''discography''' of IOSYS (not just IOSYS itself). <br />
:As for how the sheet should be cited, it is best to cite the web page it is listed on, that way it is easier to verify that it is accurate ([[WP:ABOUTSELF]]). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:50, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::But doesn't that contradict [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies]] and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies]]? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 15:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] well, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines]] mentions {{tpq|If a musician has released an extremely large number of albums, it may be better to describe their discography in a prose summary. See, for example, [[Tangerine Dream#Discography]].}} Since none of their albums have articles, I would recommend this format. It's 'common sense' for me I guess. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 17:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::But that's about the discography section of the primary article when a separate discography article exists, and at the top it says "Musicians who have released a significant amount of work should be given their own discography articles." [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ah, I see the excessively long Discography section in [[IOSYS]] now... Thanks for correcting me! I will accept the draft if you resubmit.<br />
:::::Speaking of which, why didn't you create an article directly in mainspace? You are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] so you don't have to go through AfC. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 18:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::Resubmitted. and yeah, I've also been been wondering why I didn't create it in mainspace lol [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 18:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Hello there, [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]]! I would recommend checking out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies/style]]. Because none of the artist's albums are [[WP:MUSIC|notabile according to Wikipedia's guidelines]], the independent discography page must include references to establish notability. [[WP:NOTDB|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information]], so not all available information needs to be included. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 00:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Can you quote where that is said? Because to me none of what you linked seem to say anything about discography notability [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 00:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::@[[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] discographies are lists, so the notability criteria is [[WP:NLIST]]. Take a look at [[WP:WikiProject Discographies]] which is a sub-project of both [[WP:Wikiproject Music]] and [[WP:WikiProject Lists]] and note that discographies that meet [[WP:FA]] criteria are "Featured lists". [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::So you're saying a short discography embedded in the main article doesn't need separate notability, but a long discography that needs to be split due to length does need separate notability? I am understanding what you're saying correctly? Also, if an artist is notable, how does that not also make their discography notable? [[User:NyanKatGrrrl|NyanKatGrrrl]] ([[User talk:NyanKatGrrrl|talk]]) 16:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Actually, at least based on the sources currently provided, [[IOSYS]] does not meet the notability criteria. Usually for discographies, at least a couple albums or singles have their own article. [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Hey ==<br />
<br />
Just a note to say that I see you around a lot, and I know you've been editing some medicine-related topics recently, but I don't see you around [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] much. We're nice people and hardly ever bite experienced editors, so feel free to put the page on your watchlist or come hang out if you want to. <code>:-)</code> [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 18:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Grey721|Grey721]] (06:30, 30 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do i get a sandbox article published --[[User:Grey721|Grey721]] ([[User talk:Grey721|talk]]) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:Hello [[User:Grey721|Grey721]]! Since you are a new user, you will have to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process to create an article (if this is what you mean by 'publishing' a sandbox article). The page I linked has more information on how to submit a draft. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] (09:37, 31 January 2024) ==<br />
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Hello how do I create a citation --[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] ([[User talk:Miss. Anushka|talk]]) 09:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Miss. Anushka|Miss. Anushka]] see [[WP:INTREF|the Introduction to Referencing page]]. Essentially, you have to place the citation content inside <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] (05:23, 3 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello<br />
I would like to create a page for one of an aspiriging Nepali singer/music player. Could you please help ? Thank you --[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] ([[User talk:Sagarmdahal|talk]]) 05:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sagarmdahal|Sagarmdahal]] probably not. Since they are only aspiring, they have probably not yet received [[WP:42|significant coverage in independent, reliable sources]], which is a requirement ([[WP:Notability]]) for a person to have an article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] (05:00, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, I want to know how to objectively write about divisive things, like religions. --[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]] ([[User talk:Englishclubsmpbpibs|talk]]) 05:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Englishclubsmpbpibs|Englishclubsmpbpibs]], [[WP:SNPOV]] deals with controversial subjects specifically. Feel free to leave another question if you are confused about anything in that page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] (13:39, 4 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, how do I create a page about a historic house in Ireland? (currently it does not have a page) --[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 13:39, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]], if by house you mean a residence, then you will need to make sure that the subject of the potential article meets [[WP:GNG|the general notability guideline]] or [[WP:NBUILD|the notability guideline for buildings]]. This is one of the first steps described at [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]].<br />
:Make sure you understand that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks that a newbie can start with on Wikipedia, and I would recommend starting with something simpler (such as an easy task described at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]) and working your way up. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks, I now have it drafted in my sandbox - how do I move it to a live page? [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] that is explained in the [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]] page. Also, where are the [[WP:INTREF|references]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::::Thanks for all your help so far. Can I "move" or rename the Sandbox article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TTH1640/sandbox [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::::I have it now ready as a draft for review - hope it gets up and going, and then it can be added to bit by bit<br />
:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thomastown_House [[User:TTH1640|TTH1640]] ([[User talk:TTH1640|talk]]) 17:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] (08:09, 6 February 2024) ==<br />
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Como editó? --[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]] ([[User talk:CharlesCra38350|talk]]) 08:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:CharlesCra38350|CharlesCra38350]], that is a very broad question. If you are asking how to edit, you can simply click on the 'Edit' or 'Edit source' button at the top of the page you want to edit.<br />
:Note that this is the English Wikipedia. If you are looking for the Spanish Wikipedia see https://es.wikipedia.org. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==AfC draft declined==<br />
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Hello! You have recently declined my draft, [[Draft:SuperSKU]]. I understand why, But I am confused.<br />
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In your comment, It says that<br />
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This submission is not adequately supported by [[Wikipedia:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].<br />
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The thing is, Nobody really has made any articles, So I am deciding to make the first one. Also, Are we allowed to write about our own thing, ex my software?<br />
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Thanks, Cooldudeseven7. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 22:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] if nobody has published any [[WP:42|reliable, independent, and in-depth sources]], then the topic does not deserve a Wikipedia article. When your project becomes well-known, someone else will choose to write a Wikipedia article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 23:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thank you. [[User:Cooldudeseven7|Cooldudeseven7]] ([[User talk:Cooldudeseven7|talk]]) 16:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] (11:04, 9 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi. I made a new article and Published it But I dont know where can I find it because when I search for my article I cant find it can you help me --[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 11:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] you created [[Draft:Chitgar district constructions]]. Since you are a new user, you cannot directly created new articles; instead, you need to go through the [[WP:AFC|Articles for Creation]] process. A bot should automatically add a submit button for you.<br />
:Since you are submitting a list, make sure that the list satisfies [[WP:NLIST|the notability guideline for lists]] or the [[WP:GNG|general notability guideline]]. I also don't see any [[WP:INTREF|references]], which are necessary to establish the [[WP:V|verifiability]] of the article. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks [[User:Amo Poorang|Amo Poorang]] ([[User talk:Amo Poorang|talk]]) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] on [[Rafael Benjumea Cabeza de Vaca]] (12:57, 10 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello Good day. I'm really pleased to have a mentor like you. Please could you put me through I'm really new here. Thanking you in anticipation. --[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 12:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]], glad to have you! What exactly do you need help on? It seems your [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|user page]] was deleted for [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah my user page was actually deleted. I just wrote a little insgo about myself. Please was I actually wrong? [[User:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel]] ([[User talk:Jude-Mkpughe Kpamichukwu Emmanuel|talk]]) 17:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel|Jude-Mkpughe_Kpamichukwu_Emmanuel]], I am not an [[WP:ADMIN|administrator]] and cannot see deleted pages. You should read the [[WP:U5|misuse of Wikipedia as a free web host criterion for speedy deletion]].<br />
:::In short, Wikipedia is only an encyclopedia and you should consider [[WP:OUTLETS|alternative outlets]] if your purpose is solely to promote or 'let the world know' about something. Otherwise, you may be [[WP:BLOCK|blocked]] for [[WP:NOTHERE|not being here to build an encyclopedia]].<br />
:::A good way to start contributing to our encyclopedia is at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Draft: Environmental Keeper Groups ==<br />
<br />
Thank you so much for reviewing the first draft of the proposed Environmental Keeper Groups page. I appreciate the opportunity to revise and resubmit. One challenge that I am facing is that keeper groups as a whole are under researched and under reported. Most information available about them, as you can see, comes from their own web pages. In this case, where the wikipedia article would stand as an important inaugural resource for the first time bringing together information on these types of groups, what would you recommend as a starting point to get it published so we can build from there? [[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]] ([[User talk:Adelinecmiller|talk]]) 20:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Adelinecmiller|Adelinecmiller]], the first step is to wait until Environmental Keeper Groups are researched/reported about. This way, there are enough [[WP:42|high-quality]] sources to establish the [[WP:N|notability]] of Environmental Keeper Groups. If you are confident of the notability, then add the sources that [[WP:GNG|demonstrate so]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADVOCACY|not]] the place to spread the word about an honorable cause ([[Wikipedia:Advocacy]]). It is an [[encyclopedia]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] (18:56, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I add a photo? --[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] ([[User talk:WalterLeoParker|talk]]) 18:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WalterLeoParker|WalterLeoParker]] if the image you want to add to an article is already uploaded, then you should see [[Help:Pictures]]. Otherwise, you will need to upload it. See [[Wikipedia:Uploading images]] - the key takeaway is that most images are copyrighted and cannot be uploaded. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 20:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] (21:36, 19 February 2024) ==<br />
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Greetings 🙏 is this a version control-based iterative platform, such as Git? I understand wiki, I am mostly concerned about validation, reference, and source material. Thank you in advance for your time and attention, and I bid you fine tidings. --[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] ([[User talk:Cosmicpapabear|talk]]) 21:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Cosmicpapabear|Cosmicpapabear]] the [[Help:Page history|version history]] system is like Git but with only one branch. Pseudo-branches are done by referring to previous [[WP:DIFF|diffs]] when performing actions like [[WP:RV|reverting]].<br />
:I'm not sure what you mean by 'validation, reference, and source material'. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 21:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] on [[Property tax]] (01:16, 20 February 2024) ==<br />
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How do I get a copy of my property tax’s --[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] ([[User talk:Jenb48!|talk]]) 01:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Jenb48!|Jenb48!]] That's a great question for Google or your tax advisor. I can only help you with Wikipedia-related matters; I don't even know what country you live in. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] on [[User:Thisasia]] (18:02, 21 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello sir, please I'd like to know if one can add a custom html/css Notice Templates on Wikipedia learn-more page?<br />
[[File:Wikipedia about page.jpg]] --[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] ([[User talk:Thisasia|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Thisasia|Thisasia]] I don't understand. What do you mean my 'custom notice template', and what do you mean by the learn-more page? (Links would be nice) [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] (13:31, 23 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi Sungodtemple,<br />
<br />
Nice to e-meet you.<br />
<br />
I was curious on how to add or change images on a biographical page for example and whether copyrights can be mentioned alongside these?<br />
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Looking forward reading you,<br />
<br />
Kind regards --[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]] ([[User talk:Oiduts2024|talk]]) 13:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Oiduts2024|Oiduts2024]], if the image you are trying to add or change has already been [[Wikipedia:Uploading images|uploaded]], then you can link it (see [[Help:Pictures]]).<br />
:If the image has not been uploaded, see the [[WP:File upload wizard|File upload wizard]]. Copyrights, if any, generally should not be mentioned in the article but instead on the file description page. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== German aircraft designations ==<br />
<br />
I've started a discussion at WT:Air to attempt to agree a consensus on this issue [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#German_aircraft_nomenclature|here]]. As you contributed to the discussion at the Teahouse ([[Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others]]) - I've invited you to the discussion.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] on [[User:Ibavis]] (16:31, 25 February 2024) ==<br />
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hello how do i lock my user page --[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 16:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] if by 'lock' you mean [[WP:Page protection|page protection]], there is usually not a good reason to protect a user page. See [[WP:UPROT]] for the policy on protecting user pages. In general, pages are protected if they have a high level of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::How to Rename My Username [[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] ([[User talk:Ibavis|talk]]) 04:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Ibavis|Ibavis]] see [[WP:RENAME]] if you want to rename yourself. Given that your account is very new, you may also want to simply create a new account with that username. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] (21:28, 27 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hello, when can I start writing a new article? --[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]] ([[User talk:Californiawriter|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Californiawriter|Californiawriter]], to answer your question, you can ''start'' writing a new article whenever you want.<br />
:However, note that you can't create an article directly in 'mainspace', or where viewers see it. Instead, there is a technical restriction which only allows you to create a new article directly when you are [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] - that is, your account has existed for four complete days and made ten edits.<br />
:Furthermore, creating a new article is one of the most difficult things you could possibly do on Wikipedia, only made even more arduous since you are a new editor. This would be akin to attending a chess competition having just learned what the rules are.<br />
:If your mind is set on creating a new article, I highly recommend you spend some time (at least a few days) making edits suggested at [[Special:Homepage|your newcomer homepage]], then reading [[WP:YFA|the Your First Article page]] very carefully and creating a draft. Also note that creating articles is generally not the best way you can contribute to Wikipedia.<br />
:Lastly, if you are being [[WP:PAID|paid]] to edit Wikipedia or have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] with your planned article subject, then you should read the relevant guideline/policy, which are linked earlier in the sentence. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 01:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] (14:57, 28 February 2024) ==<br />
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Hi, would you be able to tell me why my recent upload 'Baytree Centre' has been rejectde? --[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 14:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] the comment left on your draft explains why it was declined (note this is different than rejection). [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
::I have confirmed with them that I am not being paid to edit. I also do not understand how the sources I have used are not reliable? [[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] ([[User talk:Junglesheep123|talk]]) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Junglesheep123|Junglesheep123]] Please read the decline comment more carefully. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Declining Of Wikipedia Page 'Sadequain Foundation' ==<br />
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Kindly Assist Me Why Page Is '''Declined'''. Why Wikipedia Don't '''Accepting''' It?. Tell Me The Things I Forget Additionally Could You Help Me For ''Editing & Publishing'' This Page. I Will Really Thankful To You. [[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] ([[User talk:WriterSadequain|talk]]) 11:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:WriterSadequain|WriterSadequain]] the draft [[Draft:Salman Ahmad Naqvi]] was declined for reasons I elucidated at the top of the draft. Do you have any specific questions about the decline reasons? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 12:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] (12:43, 4 March 2024) ==<br />
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hello, how can I change my username? --[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] ([[User talk:Marketingdev|talk]]) 12:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Marketingdev|Marketingdev]] see [[WP:Rename]]. Happy editing! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 14:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] (11:38, 6 March 2024) ==<br />
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As I see a Video on [[YouTube]], about moving a page but the Option in Tools for moving a page is not available for me. Can you Explain please?? --[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 11:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] some articles, including [[YouTube]], are [[WP:Move protected|move protected]], meaning only [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] can [[WP:page move|move them]]. It's not like you would want to move it anyways. If you want to test moving a page, try moving a user subpage which is less likely to damage the encyclopedia. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Got it, But the Move option is not available even for draft or User page [[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]] ([[User talk:Sooedit|talk]]) 19:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
:::[[User:Sooedit|Sooedit]], that must be because you are not [[WP:AUTOCONFIRMED|autoconfirmed]] yet. You need to wait three days. Sorry for the confusion. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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== Question from [[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] (21:17, 8 March 2024) ==<br />
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What's that main taboo (rule) that I should never break? --[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]] ([[User talk:Constant-ssd|talk]]) 21:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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:[[User:Constant-ssd|Constant-ssd]], are you talking about [[WP:5P]]? [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 22:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Igoryeros&diff=1212464513User talk:Igoryeros2024-03-08T00:49:55Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: speedy deletion nomination of :Draft:Oleksandr Kodola.</p>
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== Welcome! ==<br />
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Hello, Igoryeros, and [[Help:Introduction|welcome]] to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as [[:Draft:Oleksandr Kodola]], may not conform to some of Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Core content policies|content policies]] and may not be retained. In short, the topic of an article must be [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] and have already been the subject of publication by [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable]] and [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent sources]].<br />
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Please review '''[[Help:Your first article|Your first article]]''' for an overview of the [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|article creation process]]. The '''[[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]]''' is available to help you create an article, where it will be reviewed and considered for publication. For information on how to request a new article that can be created by someone else, see '''[[Wikipedia:Requested articles|Requested articles]].''' If you are stuck, come to the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', where experienced Wikipedians can help you through the processes.<br />
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New to Wikipedia? Please consider taking a look at [[Help:Introduction|our introductory tutorial]] or reviewing the [[Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia|contributing to Wikipedia]] page to learn the basics about editing. Below are a few other good pages about article creation.<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Article development|Article development]]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout|Standard layout]]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|Lead section]]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:The perfect article|The perfect article]]<br />
* [[Wikipedia:Task Center|Task Center]]{{snd}}need some ideas of what kind of things need doing? Go here.<br />
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, ask me on my talk page. You can also type '''{{tl|help me}}''' on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!<!-- Template:First article -->&nbsp;[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:49, 8 March 2024 (UTC)<br />
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==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Draft:Oleksandr Kodola]]==<br />
[[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]<br />
{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read [[WP:Your first article|the guide to writing your first article]].</p><p>You may want to consider using the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}<br />
A tag has been placed on [[:Draft:Oleksandr Kodola]], requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G11|section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, group, product, service, person, or point of view and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read [[Wikipedia:Spam|the guidelines on spam]] and [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Organizations]] for more information. <br />
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Draft:Oleksandr Kodola|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&page=Draft%3AOleksandr+Kodola|deleting administrator}}. <!-- Template:Db-spam-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:49, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Sungodtemplehttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bumblymum&diff=1212462121User talk:Bumblymum2024-03-08T00:33:36Z<p>Sungodtemple: Notification: Your Articles for Creation submission has been declined (AFCH)</p>
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Dink Pate|Dink Pate]] (March 8) ==<br />
<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reason left by Sungodtemple was:<br />
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{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!--<br />
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--> Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''.<br />
{{clear}}<br />
* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Dink Pate]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.<br />
* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]].<br />
* If you need any assistance, or have experienced any [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Scam warning|untoward behavior]] associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:Dink_Pate '''Articles for creation help desk''']</span>, on the <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sungodtemple&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:Dink_Pate '''reviewer's talk page''']</span> or use [[Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer|Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors]].<br />
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[[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</div><!--Template:AfC decline--><br />
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{| style="margin: 0.4em 2em;"<br />
|- style="vertical-align: top;"<br />
| [[File:WP teahouse logo 2.png|alt=Teahouse logo]]<br />
| <div style="background-color:#e1e6db; color: #393D38; padding: 1em; font-size: 1.1em; border-radius:10px;box-shadow:-2px -2px 1px #8e8a78;">Hello, '''Bumblymum'''!<br />
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk|Articles for creation help desk]]'''. If you have any ''other'' questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]]''', a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] &#8226; [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 00:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)</div><br />
|}<!-- Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation --><br />
[[Category:Wikipedians who have received a Teahouse invitation through AfC]]</div>Sungodtemple