Talk:Nondeterministic algorithm - Revision history

JonH: /* Misleading Article */ thanks and suggestion for article move

2024-07-07T16:01:46Z

Misleading Article: thanks and suggestion for article move

← Previous revision		Revision as of 16:01, 7 July 2024
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	::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about AI and free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)		I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about AI and free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
			:This is much better. Previously, having read this talk page and Hehner (''Logic of Programming'', 1984, page 118), I believed that the word “nondeterminism” is used in computer science with various incompatible meanings. So I thought trying to cover them all in an introduction was a bad idea. But having read this new version of the article, I now understand. Thanks.
			:I have a constructive suggestion for consideration. This article could be renamed from "Nondeterministic algorithm" to "Nondeterminism" with just a small change to the first sentence. At present, [[nondeterminism]] is a disambiguation page, and a reader who wants to learn about nondeterminism is presented with a list of 5 articles (including this one). Depending on the order in which they read the articles, they may become confused. They would be better off reading this article first. [[User:JonH\|JonH]] ([[User talk:JonH\|talk]]) 16:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

David Eppstein: /* Misleading Article */ +

2024-07-07T06:32:29Z

Misleading Article: +

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	:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)		:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
	::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)		I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about AI and free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

David Eppstein: /* Misleading Article */ rewritten

2024-07-07T06:32:01Z

Misleading Article: rewritten

← Previous revision		Revision as of 06:32, 7 July 2024
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	:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)		:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
	::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
			I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Cewbot: Maintain {{WPBS}}: 1 WikiProject template. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: field.

2024-03-09T03:01:43Z

Maintain {{WPBS}}: 1 WikiProject template. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: field.

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172.58.255.84: /* Misleading Article */ Reply

2024-03-05T22:02:19Z

Misleading Article: Reply

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	:Thus mechanical Non-Deterministic Algorithms will not behave as expected, and not behave as their "paper and pencil" counterparts.		:Thus mechanical Non-Deterministic Algorithms will not behave as expected, and not behave as their "paper and pencil" counterparts.
	:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)		:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
			::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Qwerfjkl (bot): Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)

2024-02-03T10:46:24Z

Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)

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RoyMWiki: /* Misleading Article */ Reply

2023-04-16T16:08:39Z

Misleading Article: Reply

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	::I agree with the confusing tag, but I disagree with the suggested solution. This article is essentially a stub, and is awfully written. Although short, it is full of incorrect or approximate statements. So, the first thing to do is to rewrite it completely, with a section for each sort of nondeterminism (concurrent programming, random choices, nondeterminism of the output vs. nondeterminism of the computational path for a determinisitic output, etc.). One may add a section on nondeterministic models of computation, for showing that it models nondeterminism and parallelism in some non-realistic way (this is non-realistic in the sense no choice is done, and the computation stops when the fastest of all possible choices is finished). The computational complexity of non-deterministic algorithms must also be considered (in general the average complexity, which has nothing to do with any nondeterministic complexity).		::I agree with the confusing tag, but I disagree with the suggested solution. This article is essentially a stub, and is awfully written. Although short, it is full of incorrect or approximate statements. So, the first thing to do is to rewrite it completely, with a section for each sort of nondeterminism (concurrent programming, random choices, nondeterminism of the output vs. nondeterminism of the computational path for a determinisitic output, etc.). One may add a section on nondeterministic models of computation, for showing that it models nondeterminism and parallelism in some non-realistic way (this is non-realistic in the sense no choice is done, and the computation stops when the fastest of all possible choices is finished). The computational complexity of non-deterministic algorithms must also be considered (in general the average complexity, which has nothing to do with any nondeterministic complexity).
	:: It is only when the article will describe well its subject that a discussion on the structure of the related articles could be useful. [[User:D.Lazard\|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard\|talk]]) 17:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)		:: It is only when the article will describe well its subject that a discussion on the structure of the related articles could be useful. [[User:D.Lazard\|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard\|talk]]) 17:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
			:I suspect that the source of the confusion in discussing non-deterministic algorithms indeed arises from the use of "choice" in its apparent definition. However when looked at mathematically a Non-Deterministic Algorithm might be making an infinite number of choices, as it could contain infinite paths. "Infinite choices" is mathematically modeled by the Axiom of Choice in ZF Set Theory, in this context probably a special case like "Countable Dependent Choice".
			:So when discussing a "paper and pencil" formulation of a non-deterministic algorithm indeed it can take the many (or conceptually infinite) choices that it needs to. This is reasoned about using "Konig's Lemma" in places such as the powerset construction and elsewhere. However the Axiom of Choice is non-constructive and should not be used in a mechanical setting (without explanation, at least). But Konig's lemma fails in the mechanical setting. Indeed it fails in a recursive setting (Kleene's singular Tree theorem) resulting in an axiom system known as WKL, which extends recursion theory a little.
			:Thus mechanical Non-Deterministic Algorithms will not behave as expected, and not behave as their "paper and pencil" counterparts.
			:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

D.Lazard: /* Misleading Article */ comments

2022-01-30T17:29:20Z

Misleading Article: comments

← Previous revision		Revision as of 17:29, 30 January 2022
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	*One solution would be to split this article. The two articles would need different names. I suspect that "nondeterministic algorithm" is more appropriate for meaning A. Partly because Floyd (1967) uses it with meaning A, but also because "nondeterminism" with meaning B is only desirable in special cases with more specific names such as [[randomized algorithm]].		*One solution would be to split this article. The two articles would need different names. I suspect that "nondeterministic algorithm" is more appropriate for meaning A. Partly because Floyd (1967) uses it with meaning A, but also because "nondeterminism" with meaning B is only desirable in special cases with more specific names such as [[randomized algorithm]].
	*An alternative solution is to merge the material into other articles. There are a lot of possibilities. Those for meaning A include [[nondeterministic programming]] and [[nondeterministic finite automaton]]. Those for meaning B include [[deterministic algorithm]], [[concurrent computing]] and [[concurrency control]]. For disambiguation there is [[indeterminacy in computation]]. [[User:JonH\|JonH]] ([[User talk:JonH\|talk]]) 16:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)		*An alternative solution is to merge the material into other articles. There are a lot of possibilities. Those for meaning A include [[nondeterministic programming]] and [[nondeterministic finite automaton]]. Those for meaning B include [[deterministic algorithm]], [[concurrent computing]] and [[concurrency control]]. For disambiguation there is [[indeterminacy in computation]]. [[User:JonH\|JonH]] ([[User talk:JonH\|talk]]) 16:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
			::I agree with the confusing tag, but I disagree with the suggested solution. This article is essentially a stub, and is awfully written. Although short, it is full of incorrect or approximate statements. So, the first thing to do is to rewrite it completely, with a section for each sort of nondeterminism (concurrent programming, random choices, nondeterminism of the output vs. nondeterminism of the computational path for a determinisitic output, etc.). One may add a section on nondeterministic models of computation, for showing that it models nondeterminism and parallelism in some non-realistic way (this is non-realistic in the sense no choice is done, and the computation stops when the fastest of all possible choices is finished). The computational complexity of non-deterministic algorithms must also be considered (in general the average complexity, which has nothing to do with any nondeterministic complexity).
			:: It is only when the article will describe well its subject that a discussion on the structure of the related articles could be useful. [[User:D.Lazard\|D.Lazard]] ([[User talk:D.Lazard\|talk]]) 17:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

JonH: /* Misleading Article */ suggestions

2022-01-30T16:12:21Z

Misleading Article: suggestions

← Previous revision		Revision as of 16:12, 30 January 2022
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	:::It's exactly the opposite: a nondeterministic algorithm leaves choices open, it ''refrains'' from making them. Or in the context of nondeterministic acceptance, you could say: it makes ''all'' of them. What it doesn't do is make choices, i.e. choose between multiple options by picking one and not picking the rest. [[User:Rp\|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp\|talk]]) 21:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)		:::It's exactly the opposite: a nondeterministic algorithm leaves choices open, it ''refrains'' from making them. Or in the context of nondeterministic acceptance, you could say: it makes ''all'' of them. What it doesn't do is make choices, i.e. choose between multiple options by picking one and not picking the rest. [[User:Rp\|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp\|talk]]) 21:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::I wouldn't say "exactly" the opposite, but you're right. I didn't word that carefully enough. My point was that however it is defined, it is important to also explain what you mean by "choice".[[User:02Tails\|02Tails]] ([[User talk:02Tails\|talk]]) 23:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)		::::I wouldn't say "exactly" the opposite, but you're right. I didn't word that carefully enough. My point was that however it is defined, it is important to also explain what you mean by "choice".[[User:02Tails\|02Tails]] ([[User talk:02Tails\|talk]]) 23:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
			*The biggest problem is that the hatnote promises that the article is about meaning B (as defined in [[#Requested move 22 October 2019]]), but that is only true of the lead, and the rest of the article is about meaning A. I am adding a "Confusing" template to warn readers of the article.
			*One solution would be to split this article. The two articles would need different names. I suspect that "nondeterministic algorithm" is more appropriate for meaning A. Partly because Floyd (1967) uses it with meaning A, but also because "nondeterminism" with meaning B is only desirable in special cases with more specific names such as [[randomized algorithm]].
			*An alternative solution is to merge the material into other articles. There are a lot of possibilities. Those for meaning A include [[nondeterministic programming]] and [[nondeterministic finite automaton]]. Those for meaning B include [[deterministic algorithm]], [[concurrent computing]] and [[concurrency control]]. For disambiguation there is [[indeterminacy in computation]]. [[User:JonH\|JonH]] ([[User talk:JonH\|talk]]) 16:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

02Tails at 23:52, 26 July 2021

2021-07-26T23:52:43Z

← Previous revision		Revision as of 23:52, 26 July 2021
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	::I appreciate the hatnote. It adds value in directing the reader to more formal documentation. What I'd like to see here is the summary paired down to the effect of "a nondeterministic algorithm is one that makes a choice". Then further down in the article, we can discuss what it means to make a choice i.e. spontaneous vs stochastic. I'm willing to concede that calling an algorithm "nondeterministic" in theoretical settings means something different from practical settings. That line needs to be drawn somewhere so the reader coming from either setting won't be confused. We can't define things absolutely here when there is a gray area to think about. [[User:02Tails\|02Tails]] ([[User talk:02Tails\|talk]]) 16:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)		::I appreciate the hatnote. It adds value in directing the reader to more formal documentation. What I'd like to see here is the summary paired down to the effect of "a nondeterministic algorithm is one that makes a choice". Then further down in the article, we can discuss what it means to make a choice i.e. spontaneous vs stochastic. I'm willing to concede that calling an algorithm "nondeterministic" in theoretical settings means something different from practical settings. That line needs to be drawn somewhere so the reader coming from either setting won't be confused. We can't define things absolutely here when there is a gray area to think about. [[User:02Tails\|02Tails]] ([[User talk:02Tails\|talk]]) 16:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
	:::It's exactly the opposite: a nondeterministic algorithm leaves choices open, it ''refrains'' from making them. Or in the context of nondeterministic acceptance, you could say: it makes ''all'' of them. What it doesn't do is make choices, i.e. choose between multiple options by picking one and not picking the rest. [[User:Rp\|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp\|talk]]) 21:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)		:::It's exactly the opposite: a nondeterministic algorithm leaves choices open, it ''refrains'' from making them. Or in the context of nondeterministic acceptance, you could say: it makes ''all'' of them. What it doesn't do is make choices, i.e. choose between multiple options by picking one and not picking the rest. [[User:Rp\|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp\|talk]]) 21:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::I wouldn't say "exactly" the opposite, but you're right. I didn't word that carefully enough. My point was that however it is defined, it is important to also explain what you mean by "choice".		::::I wouldn't say "exactly" the opposite, but you're right. I didn't word that carefully enough. My point was that however it is defined, it is important to also explain what you mean by "choice".[[User:02Tails\|02Tails]] ([[User talk:02Tails\|talk]]) 23:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

← Previous revision		Revision as of 06:32, 7 July 2024
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	:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)		:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
	::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)		I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about AI and free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

← Previous revision		Revision as of 06:32, 7 July 2024
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	:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)		:Unitl this theory is explained there will be controversies over the term Non-Deterministic Algorithms. [[User:RoyMWiki\|RoyMWiki]] ([[User talk:RoyMWiki\|talk]]) 16:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
	::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		::Isn't that the point of artificial intelligence? We are literally trying to build systems where this is the case. From a practical standpoint there are "non-deterministic" systems out there which are outside of the control of the testing party, sure they could be deterministic if you got super scientific with it but to what extent is that practical vs just saying "its non deterministic". I'm sure we could invest enough to prove everything is in-fact deterministic but it would be quite expensive and impractical and what's the point? Just my 2 cents as an engineer working on systems like this every day. [[Special:Contributions/172.58.255.84\|172.58.255.84]] ([[User talk:172.58.255.84\|talk]]) 22:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
			I have rewritten the article to emphasize the commonality and differences between the different uses of nondeterminism, following Lazard's suggestion "It would probably better to expand it into a detailed explanation in the article." As for the philosophical questions about free will, there may be a connection but I don't think this article is the place for them. —[[User:David Eppstein\|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein\|talk]]) 06:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)