Talk:Military budget of the United States: Difference between revisions

bias and objectivity

It is important to protect Wikipedia from polemicism. In this article unreliable and invalid budgetary data from a leftist organization, SIPRI, are manipulated to advance an ideological perspective. We should ask the writer to remove the absurd graph or at least admit the distortions. Consider these observations from truthandpolitics.org: "Many caveats should be kept in mind when making international comparisons of military expenditures: Data for developing and nondemocratic countries may be incomplete, which may lead to crude estimates or underestimates of military spending. Conversions from local currencies to a common currency (here, US dollars) may lead to misleading comparisons of the spending of different nations. Currency conversions can be done using official (or market) exchange rates or with "purchasing power parity" (PPP) The previous two caveats imply that estimates of world military spending must also be treated with caution." A better comparative tool for examining US defense expenditure is to use percent of gdp, both from the perspective of history (perhaps since 1960) and relative to other countries (with the caveats above). I suspect that would provide equitable ammunition for both sides of the defense expenditure debate, and would serve to provide a more objective start point for the conversation. (end).

I find the opinion above very interesting. The individual above mentions "unreliable and invalid budgetary data from a leftist organization", but then points to the clear right-wing bias of truthandpolitics.org for "objective" observations. There is not an objective, unbiased economist on the planet who would recommend examining trends in regards to US military/defense expenditure solely through comparison to the GDP. Take something that has exploded in size within the past sixty years (the US GDP), and use that as a base for the formulation of a ratio to measure the objective, independent growth of US military/defense expenditure in comparison to other countries? Now that's misleading.--Jackbirdsong 05:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I should pre-empt any furor over the caption I provided in my chart. The United States has maintained the indicated hegemony since the end of the second World War. This means that the trend of the world's economy has been noticably in favor of the interests of the US, inarguably, and peaking in the 1950's. I say that this is in decline because, first of all, the developing world, notably China, has been catching up and pushing for fairer trade policies in institutions such as the WTO, and also the European Union is functioning in an increasingly unified manner, albeit that its interests frequently coincide with those of the United States. In purely economic terms--that is, in numbers, to say nothing of ideology--the caption is true. I'm thinking now it could maybe be rephrased, though. What it has to do with an article on the US's military budget should be obvious. It's well-documented that an economic hegemony is much more effective with a large military to back it up and protect its interests. Just look at previous such nations throughout history: Mother England, the USA's immediate predecessor; Rome; the Ottomans. Aratuk 23:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) Update: rephrased. Aratuk

Actual accounting of military expenditures

It should be noted that determining the amount of money actually spent on "military" expenditures is not as clear cut as it seems. For example, in government figures, interest on indebted past military expenditures is generally ignored, and unbudgeted military requests are rarely calculated in the total picture of government spending. Lord help you if you want to find a percentage, because the total nature of government spending is

This infamous POV documents the wide discrepancy better than i can. I'm not saying either of the POVs on that page are correct (tho I have my leanings), but I do think this is an issue that ought to be documented further. --Combuchan 07:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow that POV is really biased. It inflates the percentage of military expenditures by removing large portions of the federal budget, like the vast majority of federal entitlement programs. Then it credits the overwhelming majority of the federal debt (80%) to past military spending instead of basing it on the military's percentage of actual previous federal spending. Jeff the Baptist 20:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Multicountry comparison

I think the table is biased. Not enough to make an NPOV dispute, but it ought to be rationalised with purchasing power parity or not displayed at all. Another option would be to compare the actual percentages of military spending (if we ever determine that, see my complaints above). The USA wouldn't be at all on top then.

Then again, I think a certain part of expenditure comparsion between countries is meaningless. During the Cold War, NASA developed a ballpoint pen at an enormous sum for pilots in low gravity conditions. The russians simply used a pencil. Both did the exact same thing. --Combuchan 07:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The above statement about NASA is untrue. Scott5834 17:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Table

I removed the following table from Military history of the United States, where it really didn't belong (not enough historical perspective). Free to a good home. --Kevin Myers 05:59, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

As of 2005, according to the General Accounting Office, the U.S. budget included the following planned or requested military expenses:

U.S. military budget request per Fiscal Year
Year	Budget
2005	$420.7 billion
2004	$399.1 billion
2003	$396.1 billion
2002	$343.2 billion
2001	$310 billion
2000	$288.8 billion

References

Specifically, with respect to this: "As of the early 21st century, the United States is the only military in the world which is capable of global operations." - it certainly sounds like a gross overstatement to me. What about China, Russia, EU? --int19h 05:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Noted and edited. China is lagging in some areas like having an operational carrier, which seven other countries do other than the US. Shawnc 12:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'd argue it's not a gross overstatement. No other military in the world can operate, long term, anywhere in the world, other than the United States'. European forces require American logistical support, and China can't project power beyond flight range of her shores. Russia can barely feed her soldiers, supplying them outside Russia is just impossible.

And don't forget that the US Navy is still the only navy with a true multirole carrier, all the others are either VSTOL carriers or carry a much smaller airwing. (And there's only one or two of the second type extant.)

-Sounds like a bad case of hubris. What, does the lack of a "multirole" carrier actually prevent these other forces from projecting power around the world if they wish it? I think not.

-First, you're just confusing Europe's desire to have the US pay for things like logistical support if they can get it. Don't mistake "using/accepting" American help with "relying/needing" it. Postwar Europe hasn't truly needed to project it's military capabilities somewhere longterm without the US first stepping in and "offering" its help (thereby preserving its raison d'etre for having so many military bases around Europe and keeping Europe from developing a true rival force of power projection). American "help" to other countries serves its own economic/political purposes as well.

-Second, you're just talking about the quality of force projection, but as we all noticed in Korea, Vietnam, (Iraq?), highest-tech weaponry doesn't in itself guarantee dominance (let alone indicate their full power capability).

-And what about the military forces (Self Defense Forces) of Japan? Don't laugh: China and (both) Koreas sure aren't. They have the technology, carriers, airpower, resources, manpower and capabilities necessary to project long term power anywhere in the world (yes, even without US help, again were it necessary). Of course, memories of past wars, Article 9 of their Constitution and the current anti-war sentiment of a majority of its population prevents them from said projection, but we aren't talking about the "will" here, we're talking about if they have the the "way" or means to do so. Right?

Uphold democracy?

"National belief that the United States must maintain a global military presence to uphold democracy". I suppose the word "belief" is crucial here, because the US is _very_ selective in "upholding democracy". In fact, I think an analysis of the US actions rather than the rethorics would show that economic interests are a lot more fundamental in US military decisions than politics. Unless someone objects, I will rephrase this to simply "that the United States must maintain a global military presence". Piet 16:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a question about the statement: "The current (2005) United States military budget is larger than the military budgets of the next twenty biggest spenders combined, and six times larger than China's, which places second." Now, the actual military spending of PRC and its ranking are still unclear according to the corresponding article in Wikipedia. The statement give the impression that the problem is settled and the conclusion is finalized, which is apparently not the case. I suggest the statement should refer to the page about military spending of PRC.

Discretionary Spending

The article makes the point that Iraq and Afghanistan Wars are funded entirely through supplemental discretionary spending several times. I don't believe this to be entirely true. Supplemental spending is used to cover yearly budget shortfalls, but I believe large segments of the conflict are now financed directly through the defense budget. Each year's defense budget is adjusted based on all the past years spending including any supplemental spending. So while the first year of the war was largely supplemental, this years defense budget includes previous years supplemental spending incorporated within the current budgeted items.

Also why does the chart in the discussion above list a different level of defense spending than in the main article. This is an inconsistancy which should be research and fixed.

-As for supplemental spending not being included in the current year's budget, both the British American Security Information Council (BASIC) (http://www.basicint.org) as well as the online blog "Iraq Slogger" (http://www.iraqslogger.com) in addition to the National Priorities Project (http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182) all maintain that the war efforts in these two countries are still funded through the use of supplemental spending. However, the last source states (at http://costofwar.com/numbers.html) that there were two exceptions to this for Iraq (i.e. extra money for Iraq was added to the Department of Defense budget). The total of these two exceptions are around US$65 Billion dollars (or around 18-20% of total funds devoted to the Iraq effort.) Take your pick of sources and hope it helps.

Military spending as subsidies to high technology business

This page could comment on the role of military spending as a subsidy for the high technology industry (not only in the USA, of course).

Reasons for large U.S. military expenditures

I would say that parts of this section may not be totally objective. It seems to me that this section was written with the aim of justifying the military budget amount, rather than objectively stating facts. For example;

In the first reason: "Since the 1940s, there has been a national consensus within the United States...", and "there remains a national belief that..."

In the third reason: "while there is a national consensus...there is also a national consensus..."

The phrases 'national consensus' and 'national belief' stand out here. Does every single American agree that '<the> military must maintain the capability to fight and win wars overseas in order to defend American allies and to maintain control over the high seas to protect American trade from disruption.'? If a majority of Americans do agree, it might be good to cite a reference that states this.

In the second point, we see that 'the spending represents only a fraction of its enormous national economy.', and 'the current rate of expenditure is sustainable'. I hope I do not misinterpret these statements when I say they are pro-military spending.

The third reason outlines 'improvements in technology' that have been the result of 'an expensive research program'. Has there been any detriment to Americans, or the world, as a result of these 'improvements'? Here, as in the first two reasons, we see only one side of the story.

Perhaps by looking at the first three reasons, it can be seen that the fourth reason may be more justification of military spending than objective, non-partisan commentary.

I certainly do not wish to get into a discussion about the merits/demerits of the US military budget. Also, I don't wish to suggest that the author(s) of this section had ulterior motives. I would merely suggest that this section may be better suited to another article, or possibly left out in its entirety. It would be rude of me to make such a massive edit without seeking the opinion of other editors.--ThurstonZ 04:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to address what is said in the above paragraphs... Your stated suggestions betray your beliefs and your inability to be objective

Thank you for your comment. Could you please clarify what you said in your last sentence? I am unsure as to exactly what part of my statement was objectionable to you.--ThurstonZ 19:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Defense budget for 2006

There is an inconsistancy in "Budget for 2006" concerning the "Department of Energy" -The table includes a line item for "Department of Energy Defense Activities $17.0 Bil." -Yet the next line says "This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance and production (which is in the Department of Energy budget).

Percentage of GDP

The article claims the US spends 4% of its GDP on the military. 2005 GDP: $12,455,825 Billion. 2005 GAO Military Budget: $420.7 Billion. My calculator shows that's 3.37%. With the '06 Budget and '05 GDP, you get 3.77%. Where does 4% come from?

From the CIA factbook. There is a reference in the article. Mathijs Romans 11:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)