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Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie [[Aleister Crowley]] und [[Anton Szandor LaVey]]. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie [[Robert Johnson]], wurden aufgenommen.
Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie [[Aleister Crowley]] und [[Anton Szandor LaVey]]. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie [[Robert Johnson]], wurden aufgenommen.



== Weblinks ==
Weblinks
* [http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/11/30/a0162.nf/text Rezension der „taz“]
* [http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/11/30/a0162.nf/text Rezension der „taz“]
* [http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/13/13854/1.html „Hasse deinen nächsten wie dich selbst“ Rezension Heise-online]
* [http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/13/13854/1.html „Hasse deinen nächsten wie dich selbst“ Rezension Heise-online]

Revision as of 14:40, 11 August 2007


LORDS

This was never meant to be a book about Black Metal as a genre. Hence the title "The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground". It is about the violence, people and the ideals or lack thereof surrounding Black Metal and not the development of the music itself. There is very little information about the development of BM as a musical genre, although, it is not for wiki to say Moynihan should have filled this void. Also, in this article the line "...it completely omits the developments of melodic black metal and melodic death metal that were well under way when book was first published..." is irrelevant, given that the book is not concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such. Excepting, maybe, the impacts on the genre made by certain events invloving participants in the BM scene. The article could include something about the statements made by Vark Vikernes concerning misinformation in LoC. These statements used to be on the old Burzum website www.burzum.com (now closed). I dont know if/where they are still available. PyrE 13:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had found the statements that are allegedly by Vikernes on www.burzum.com. Currently they are linked under external links. They might be useful, but since Vikernes has written something completely different at www.burzum.org, one has to deal with them rather carefully. Regarding your point that LoC "is not concerned (and was never made out to be) with BM as a genre as such", it strongly suggests that Black Metal="Satanic Metal Underground", and this way it is perceived by the public. If you can read German, check out the two German reviews: Both take the book to be about "Black Metal". And Coogan's review is titled: "How Black is Black Metal?" Zara1709 15:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not really disagree about the book being about Black Metal. I disagree that the book was supposed to be about Black Metal and its development as a musical genre. Ofcourse, the book is going to have to establish (as it does) some sort of background regarding Black Metal. Although, I doubt Moynihan & Didrik Søderlind were trying to create a definitive and comprehensive guide to the development of BM, even if it has been stated otherwise. People say many things in reviews and such that are not necessarily correct. That is why I believe (imho) that some statements in the article show a misunderstanding as to the objective of this work. Maybe I get your point *Black Metal="Satanic Metal Underground"*, but it is not essentially correct. I think that LoC is more about the development of the Satanic/Heathen/Nationalist/etc ideals concerning people involved in the scene and its later escalation into violence and such. Not necessarily about the Black Metal scene in its entirety and its musical progression. Regardless of public perspective, should not this article establish what the book Lords of Chaos actually entails, rather than simply expressing assumed opinions. I do not think it is wrong to state in this article that the book is about Black Metal and its history, it is just not a musical history in particular. It is more than that (or less?). I guess people may be mistaken into believing this book is a comprehensive guide to BM. So I guess it may be important to express that it is not or atleast make this clear. I noticed the sentence I mentioned has been shortened. Interesting. Good work on finding those links btw, I should have a look. Anyway, I will get over this article now, it could do with some work and, alas, I have little time for such endeavors. PyrE 03:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to bring to your attention a line from the preface: "Black Metal has taken the fire and used it as fuel, the accelerant for an one way ride to hell." (LoC, XII)I think, this overloaded metaphor together with the quotes already in the article, can be used as evidence that Moynihan wants to portray the BM scene as some kind of "Satanic Metal Underground" from that arsons are committed. This might be true for the early BM scene in Norway, but it is definitely not true for Black Metal as whole. Zara1709 12:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think?

What do you think? I think better information can be gained by reading wikipedia than can be gained from reading this book. As a metalhead, I have the feeling that Moynihan is an outsider writing about something he doesn't really understand. Maybe he is catering to people who aren't familiar with metal, but it's to the detriment of the book's accuracy. I think he misses the point of some bands and even gets some information wrong. For example, he states "the Misfits mutated into Samhain...by 1988 the band had changed names again, to simply Danzig", which is totally false. The Misfits ended when Glenn Danzig left the band and formed Samhain, which later became Danzig. Furthermore, the Misfits reunited (without Danzig) in 1997, meaning that Danzig and The Misfits existed as separate bands at the time of the book's printing. Its one of many sloppy errors/hasty summaries in the book that make it frustrating to read.

  • There tends to be errors and incomplete information on wikipedia as well. Just take a look at the Mayhem page! I think one can learn more by reading interviews from that time period

I personally feel that this book has little information about black metal as music and is, (as is pointed out above) more about the crimes, specifically Varg Vikernes. I think we should perhaps point out that this book shows little grasp or interest in black metal as a genre.

  • I've just updated the paragraph on the book's reception, highlighting the fact that the views expressed by Moynihan, his emphasis on extreme instances, etc. are seen as highly controversial in the bm scene. Let me know if it sounds alright. Can't think of a good username 00:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agreeJmm6f488 08:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [1]. --Stwalkerbot 12:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality disputed

I find this rather impolite, not to say annoying. There I spend hours writing this article, and then User:Cyrus XIII just tags it "disputed" and doesn't even take the 10 minutes to specify that on this talk page. Wikipedia:NPOV dispute clearly states: The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. This is a controversial topic, and I can assure that I strongly oppose Moynihans extreme right perspective. I had originally indented to go through with this controversy, but if other editors don't even specify their concerns, this is fruitless. Seriously, I don't see what the concern of User:Cyrus XIII is. Zara1709 12:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did not post here, because my edit summaries were quite comprehensive already. And despite some recent improvements, the article still bears a judgmental slant towards its subject throughout. This could be mended if the contents and controversy were to be divided into strictly separate section, with the lead merely alluding to the controversy discussed below. On a side note, if you find yourself arbitrarily opposed towards the book's author, your should probably not be editing here (see Wikipedia:Neutrality). Cyrus XIII 14:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand your problem. Is there a Wikipedia policy that says that articles about about a book need to have separate sections for Contents and for Criticism? If there is, let me know, but with this book that is rather difficult, because the Contents are the reason for the Criticism. The "thesis" or "conclusion" or whatever of that book is extreme right propaganda, just look at the quotes, he uses the word extreme rightists himself: "If Black Metalers and extreme rightists could agree..." Many Black Metalers who are not extreme rightists are going to disagree with that. Saying that this book is extreme right propaganda is not "judgmental slant" , the phrase "extreme rightists" is used be one of the authors himself. And of course oppose this viewpoint. I can't tolerate the torching of churches or murder any more than any law-abiding citizen could. And I haven't even added the part where the book suggests that extreme-right activist should assault political leaders like the RAF did. Zara1709 16:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cyrus XIII. Could you explain paragraph by paragraph what points or sentences you are disputing. If it is the wording of certain sentences or phrases, perhaps if we talk it through, we can come to a consensus. That Michael Moynihan is an extreme rightist isn't really controversial, Moynihan has stated it himself. That this book is extreme-rightist propaganda is however open to dispute. I do however agree with Zara that this book is in fact extreme-right propaganda. Yes, this is not the Protocols of Zion. It may not be extremist frothing, but Moynihan's political beliefs do define his whole view of the founding of Black Metal. If certain instances of a one sided point of view within this article could be citied then we could fix them. However, just saying that the neutrality of this article is disputed doesn't help fix the problem if a problem is to be found. Jmm6f488 01:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't so much take issue with what the article has to say about the book, rather how its done. Wikipedia is a neutral, descriptive publication, we do not criticize other publications, we may simply echo common criticisms towards them in designated Criticism or Controversy sections. The current revision of the article however has bits of explicit criticism of the book and its author spread across every section. For example, it is rather suggestive than descriptive to finish the lead paragraph with a quote instead of merely informing the reader of the existence of notable criticism. Same goes for pointing out supposed discrepancies between the book's mission statement (of sorts) and what it, in that light, fails to mention, only two sentences into a section that is supposed to just summarize contents.
Note that on a personal level, I share Zara1709's profound dislike of extreme rightist views, yet as an editor, I feel compelled to demand a more level headed, descriptive treatment of the article's subject, that does not constantly get ahead of itself when it comes to criticism. Incidentally, our articles on prominent examples of far-right propaganda, such as the aforementioned Protocols of Zion or Mein Kampf, do just that. - Cyrus XIII 05:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the way Moynihan uses the word "extreme rightists" himself, I'd say that it is purely descriptive to call him that. I don't get it: Protocols of Zion or Mein Kampf, do just what?
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion: "is an antisemitic text that purports to describe a Jewish plot to achieve world domination"
Mein Kampf: "an exposition of Hitler's political ideology of Nazism."
Of course, for many readers it should be a Tautology to say the the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are antisemitic or that Mein Kampf is about Nazism; Now, I don't know if you have read Lords of Chaos (btw. the German edition is different from the English one). To say that Moynihan is: "extreme rightist whose fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout [the book]" is quite exact. If necessary, I can give you some fitting quotes. Zara1709 15:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No disagreement forthcoming, so I partly reverted the lead. To say that Moynihan's "fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout [the book]" is an accurate description of the contents. If Moyihan's views are that of a rightists or extreme rightist can be left open. Zara1709 03:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's still just an opinion and as such does not belong into the article lead, especially not in any fashion that speaks directly through the respective source and as such serves as an extension to aforementioned opinion. That the book received criticism based on its approach towards the subject and Moynihan's leanings are sober facts. Again, everything else that could be said against the publication belongs into the Criticism section. The Contents section has now been rewritten in a more descriptive fashion, removing the occasional jabs at omissions on part of the authors and the excessive quoting near the end. - Cyrus XIII 12:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not an opinion

Again, Cyrus XIII, I have to ask whether you have actually read the book. There obviously is a "not so hidden subcurrent" of right-wing extremism in there. This is not the opinion of some of the reviewers, but an accurate description of its contents. Here are two more quotes from Lords of Chaos (1998):

  • about Slayer: "-despite his last name, there is nothing remotely "Aryan" about led singer Tom Araya, who in fact comes from a Hispanic South American background" (p. 30)
  • about a Norwegian right-wing 'activist' Tom Kimmo Eiternes: "This vision of the enemy might predispose him to take his actions one step further, from harassing immigrants to Baader-Meinhof style urban guerilla warfare directed at leading power figures." (p. 318)

The reason Neopaganism isn't even mentioned in the article currently is that the quote on this was removed:

""Satanism and the heathenism from which it ultimately descends are themselves the products of the archetypes and differentiated psyches of nations and peoples, and they therefore spring from the same “occult” or mystical sources as nationalism itself. Nationalism is the political manifestation of a folk’s unconscious; heathenism/Satanism is the spiritual manifestation." (p. 329&330) Zara1709 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Paragraph of This Article

This is seems to be the opening version favored by Cyrus:

Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. The book has been criticized for its approach towards its controversial subject matter and the political leanings of author Moynihan.

This seems to be the opening version favored by Zara1709:

Lords of Chaos: The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground is a book by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. It gives a history of the early Norwegian Black Metal scene, with a focus on the string of church burnings and murders that occurred in the country around 1993. Moynihan's "fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout [the book]"

I bolded the difference between the two. I think if we go paragraph by paragraph like this, with everyone explaining there reasoning we can come to an agreement over wording that would be acceptable to everyone. Jmm6f488 20:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think the disagreement is on a fundamental level. Kevin Coogan has writen: "Yet what really makes the book fascinating is that its main author, Michael Moynihan, is himself an extreme rightist whose fusion of politics and aesthetic violence shapes a not-so-hidden sub current that runs throughout LOC." [2] I have read this book throughoutly and I would say that this and the rest of Coogans' article are a good summary of Lords of Chaos. User:Cyrus XIII on the other hand insists that this is just the POV of Coogan. But I completely fail to understand the problem that Cyrus has. If someone speaks about someone else as not being Aryan, then this is racist. If someone suggest an assault on political leaders, the he is an extremist. This is part of the contents of the book! Of course, there are also some others contents that need to be mentioned, but I haven't gotten around to that yet because I have to deal with this discussion. Zara1709 20:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you make of the contents of the book personally is not relevant to the article (as per Wikipedia:No original research), neither is your obviously strong opinion regarding the book and its author (Wikipedia:Neutrality). Please refrain from turning your contributions to this page into an the-ends-justify-the-means anti-nazism witch hunt. All that would achieve is damaging Wikipedia's pursuit of being a neutral publication. The article's current revision offers the reader a strictly descriptive account of the books contents and the critical reaction to it by the press, all that without turning this encyclopedia into an outlet for far-right propaganda. - Cyrus XIII 02:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are violating WP:NOT here. Wikipedia is not censored. THIS BOOK HAS EXTREME RIGHT CONTENT. (sry for caps, but you are obviously not getting this.) I am only attempting a "strictly descriptive account of the books contents." Stop trying to use Wikipedia:Neutral point of view to get this out of the article. To say that, "The book has been criticized for its approach towards its controversial subject matter and the political leanings of author Moynihan." is a dangerous understatement. This would be like saying: "Mein Kampf has been criticized for the authors attitude towards the Jews."
I am going to improve the wording of my last version to take into account the neutrality concerns, but if something is right wing propaganda, I need to be allowed to write this. Zara1709 12:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(←) Again, it is not up to you to determine whether the book supports right-wing ideologies or just depicts them. Cherry-picking quotes to fuel your POV and subsequently misrepresenting sources like the review by Die Tageszeitung (which actually recommends the read and merely uses the poison cabinet metaphor as a catchy opener), does hardly strengthen your position, neither do knee-jerk reverts that re-insert uncited information (WP:V), badly formatted and redundant citations (WP:CS) and excessive external linking (WP:EL/WP:NOT). On top of that, censorship concerns may very well arise with regards to your removal of vital information, such as positive press reactions towards the publication and the announcement that it will spawn a motion picture. - Cyrus XIII 12:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know that you can read German, so I don't need to translate this: Die tageszeitung writes: "Und obwohl ich Moynihan die Tantiemen nicht gönne, bleibt mein Urteil: das spannendste Sachbuch seit dem Alten Testament." Since when is the Old Testament a "Sachbuch". Irony, anyone? This ambiguous statement hints: If you are into violence, you might find this book almost as interesting as the Old Testament. Now, you are not going to believe me, but I was going to add this back in: "The book has received wide praise for providing a pioneering account of the subgenre, and for its unique content." I only was going to add that this praise is almost always accompanied by a heavy critique of Moynihan's right wing connections.
Now stop throwing policies at me at random and respond to the points I have raised:
  1. Is there any policy that states that you need to have different sections for "Contents" and "Criticism"?
  2. If a book includes right-wing statements, why should an editor not be allowed to write this in an article?
  3. Do you agree that the statements if have quoted qualify as right-wing, or do you want me to expand those quotes?
  4. Have you actually read the book?

Zara1709 13:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am perfectly aware of a certain ambiguity within that Old Testament remark, but I'll rather leave it to readers to interpret it (WP:OR).

  1. WP:NPOV, especially the passage about article structure.
  2. The book deals with extremists and their ideologies and the article has at no time failed to mention that.
  3. Given your previous record of selective quoting, I'll pass on that. We have comprehensive outside sources on the book and they suffice to classify its contents and potential agenda. Given these references...
  4. ...I would not even have to have read the book, in order to productively contribute to this article.

- Cyrus XIII 14:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In German

You both speak German so here is the Wikipedia page in German maybe it can give you some hints. I would help but you would have to translate the entire page for me ;) :

Das Buch Lords of Chaos (englische Ausgabe ISBN 0-922915-48-2; deutsche Ausgabe ISBN 3-936878-00-5) erzählt die Geschichte der okkulten Rockmusik mit Schwerpunkt auf Black Metal. Die Autoren sind Michael Moynihan von der Band „Blood Axis“ und Didrik Søderlind, Journalist der Zeitschrift „Playboy“ in Norwegen. Das Buch erschien erstmals 1998 in englischer Sprache, 2003 wurde die deutsche Ausgabe veröffentlicht. Analog zum erscheinen der deutschen Version erschien ein CD-Sampler mit Liedern der im Buch erwähnten Künstler.

„Lords of Chaos“ ist knapp 400 Seiten stark und enthält viele Gespräche mit unter anderem Hendrik Möbus, Varg Vikernes oder Ihsahn. Es werden die Geschehnisse um die Kirchenbrände bzw. die Morde in den frühen 90er Jahren, welche die Black-Metal-Szene in die Schlagzeilen brachten, beleuchtet. Weiterhin gibt das Buch Auskunft über den Einfluss von Okkultismus und Satanismus auf Rock- und Metal-Musik.


Es wurde beim Erscheinen sehr kontrovers diskutiert, sowohl in der deutschen Presse als auch in szenespezifischen Zeitschriften. Dies hängt unter anderem mit den Verstrickungen von Michael Moynihan in die rechte bis rechtsextremistische Szene zusammen. Auch die teilweise deutliche Bewunderung des Autors für seine Gesprächspartner tat ihr Übriges dazu, eine Kontroverse zu entfachen.

Die Compilation umfasst, neben den im Buch genannten Bands der norwegischen und schwedischen Black-Metal-Szene, mehrere Künstler aus dem okkultistischen und satanistischen Umfeld, wie Aleister Crowley und Anton Szandor LaVey. Auch Vertreter, die das Okkulte eher am Rande streifen, wie Robert Johnson, wurden aufgenommen.


Weblinks

Jmm6f488 14:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS. I do know enough German to know what Kontroverse means in the article, so maybe this article can give a good approach. Jmm6f488 14:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]