Talk:Afro–Latin Americans: Difference between revisions

Some of the info in this article is distinctly not NPOV (e.g., " Even though they are treated wrongly they overcome prejudice") and I wonder about some of the other statements, for example

All most all Puerto Ricans have some African lineage. The actual racial statictics of Puerto Rico are not known (this is contradictory)

and

an additional 11% are pure blacks

apart from the fact that racial purity is a fiction, how can one be certain (given the way slaves were treated, given the fact that few people know exactly who their ancestors were) that most of these people have no non-African ancestry in the time they have been in Latin America? Guettarda 23:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes this article is far from good. It may have even been a cut and paste from another webpage, as it had no wiki formatting before I got to it. If you can verify the copyvio, feel free to delete it. Otherwise, maybe we should add a POV disputed tag to it, since I don't know the source of the info. - Taxman 03:01, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

that most Puerto Ricans have some African lineage and that no actual racial statistics are known is not contradictory. The former needs just observation and common knowledge the latter scientific testing. There was a recent DNA study that (through sampling) the scientists determine that a high percentage of Puerto Ricans (even white PRs) have African DNA.

Here's a source from the US National Science Foundation with figures of 27% of African lineage. [Article in Caribbean Net News http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2003/10/07/dna.htm]

I do think it is an interesting topic that should be written about, and not deleted

--Vizcarra 7 July 2005 21:05 (UTC)

Checked some of the relevant web pages, and the numbers look ok (if you substitute "predominantly African ancestry" for "pure black". It's probably fixable. I can only find exact phrases on sites that take their content from Wikipedia, and looking at the edit history it looks written rather than copied. I'll add the "disputed" tag and then figure out how to clean it up. Guettarda 13:58, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have read the part about México and most of it seems correct, but i will try to check the figures. I think the article is important and can be fixed. Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 15:50 (UTC)

Edits

How can there be less blacks in Honduras than in Guatemala? It is a clearly false assertion. IMO the title is made up and needs changing. The black Latinos dop not regard themselves, nor does anyone else in LA regard them as Afros. I would like to change the name, but not sure what to, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:31 (UTC)

I have removed the false assertion that the majority of Honduran blacks are Garífuna, and removed the percentages of blacks in CA countries as they are not credible figures. I didn't know this article existed but now that I do I look forward to contributing, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:57 (UTC)

I now have serious doubts about the reliability of any statements within this article, given the sheer number of dubious steatements I have read, and I haven't even finished the article, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 18:29 (UTC)

Afro-Mexican not its own article?

SqueakBox: Is there a reason why Afro-Mexican should not be its own article? It would add readibility to the Afro-Latin article (which got quite large) plus it has more information that any other Afro-Latin group (more than Cuban). --Vizcarra 8 July 2005 20:30 (UTC)

It is easier to put the one article on Vfd rather than putting the Mexican article on Vfd as well. Also this article is not too long, and if we have to have an article on black latinos I would rather it was all in one place for ease of reading and ease of editing. I am not convinced black latinos should have their own article at all let alone 2 articles. And there are very few black Mexicans, vastly more black Brazilians and they don't get their own article, SqueakBox July 8, 2005 20:47 (UTC)

If it's not too long, then we can make it a "stub", but then again, it would be much larger than most stubs. Do you put articles on Vfd for a reason other than personal reasons?

It wouldn't be easier to put Afro-Mexican and Afro-Latin American in one article for reading, because Afro-Mexican section is much larger than most others (other than cuban), so even for aesthethics it's better to summarize with a similar amount of information as with other countries and add a link for "more info".

I don't think you know much about the topic, because if you did you wouldn't say "there are very few black Mexicans". Even number is not of much significance here because we are talking about how it is a group in itself. If there would be too many, there wouldn't be a need for an article because there were so many! (like in Haiti).

Black Brazilians haven't got their own article because nobody has taken the time to write about it. African Americans have their own article, not having one for Afro-Mexican and Afro-Latin American because you don't agree with it doesn't make sense to me. To get rid of so much information contributed by other wikipedians.

Have you noticed that you are the only one wanting to delete this article? --Vizcarra 8 July 2005 20:56 (UTC)

If may offer my opinion. I have more access to material related to black people in Mexico than black people in other countries. It does not matters there are few black in Mexico, after all, we have info about vulcans who do no exists... :) (note. Please, could you sign your posts... It´s a bit dificult to say who is saying what...) Nanahuatzin 8 July 2005 21:32 (UTC)

No this Vfd is not for personal reasons. Why would anyone think it is. Stop seeing the Vfd as negative, and if you really want to keep the article make it better. I know a lot about black people in Central America, not much outside of this region, and it was the CA section that I immediately spotted as being riddled with inaccuracies. Perhaps the Mexican section isn't, and perhaps it is the only section that isn't. If this article is to survive it rerally needs the Mexican section to be a part of it. Everyone has signed all their posts today, SqueakBox July 9, 2005 00:55 (UTC)

Disclaimer???

I think the article must stress the diferent conception on black between latin america and US, since probably most of the reader will be from there. Latin america would be considered 80% black or something like that if we used the "one drop theory" that seems to be the rule in the US. I wrote a kind of disclaimer about it, but i think it can be rewritten to become clearer. thanks. Nanahuatzin 07:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

This is an international encycloperdia and we must not asssume our readers are from anywhere. The obsessive self awareness about rascism and the one drop theory do not appear to apply here in atin America. A major part of my objection to this article is that it is totally US centred in both the name and the attitudes. Hence my perception of rascism within the article. Latinos are not obsessed with race in the way Anglo Saxons are, and thus the society is much less rascist. I wish that could be reflected in the article, and good to see Nanahuatzin has made a start, SqueakBox 14:57, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox, Yes it´s an international enciclopedia.. but oriented to English speaking readers, most of whom i asume are anglo saxon. In the spanish wikipedia i would not includ most of this. We should keep in mind this. For example the article i have about aztecs have a diferent content in the spanish wiki and the english wiki. Mainly because english reader usually only know the version of Prescot about aztecs.

Another importan thing for me. The articles in the wikipedia are mirrowed in a lot of places (officially and non oficially), we must remember there is going to be a lot of copies of this. For example

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/a/af/afro-latin_american1.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/afro-latin-american

In my opinion, the original article was written from someone asociated with the movements that seek to create a conscience of black community. For examples it resports that "There have been many accounts of Afromestizos being pulled over by the police and being forced to sing the Mexican national anthem to prove they are Mexican (Graves, 2004)". As a mexican i have never hear an account of this, but i will try to found the source or another source before change it. I think the topic is important and should be cleaned, not erased.

Wikipedia is aimed at anyone who can read English. Given the popularity of it as a second language this is a lot of people. We must not assume our readers are Anglo Saxon. Also do remember that an English person like me knows very little about the race issues in the States. For me the article comes across as having ben written by a black activist pushing a black consciousness POV. For me the idea that a black Honduran (etc) is somehow less Honduran than anyone else born and raised here is the rascist idea. The consensus appears (the Vfd isn't over yet) to be to keep the article, in which case I totally agree that we need to clean the article up. I also plan to have articles on White-Latin American and Indigenous-Latin American, SqueakBox 15:46, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

It,s good we agree. Probably as a mexican with a big border with US, i am used to consider most english speaking people as anglo-saxon... The idea of creating a black conscience is not necesarilly bad... but i agree is potentially racist. That is why, i think those points should be included and commented on the article. It is a very touchy subject. A quick search on "afro-latin american" in google, reports me a lot of articles "us-centric" and i think we can make a contribution on this subject, since it seem most of us (interested in the article) are form not us countries. But we need to have a lot of discussion. I found the situation of black mexicans(o more specifically, black comunities), analogous to the one of indigenous comunities. Oficially there is no diference between mexicans, and theorically this should mean they are treated the same.. but instead they area treated as if they do not exists, which is discriminatory, specially if they try to live with their own traditions. This are really cultural problem, not racial problems. Nanahuatzin 16:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see the name changed to Black Latin American. What do folk think? SqueakBox 16:13, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

I partially agree. Since most (or a lot???) "Black Latin American" do not like the word "african", but we would need to keep the direct, since there is already a lot of articles elsewhere on the subject of afro-latin american. Mhhh on second toughts... I think black latin would be to concerned on race, while afro-laitn could be more concerned on the african influence in latin america.. Which i think is still more important. For example, we have afro-latin music, and other cultural influences. Nanahuatzin 16:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

To make this article about the African influence in Latin America you would really need to start again as right now the article is clearly about black people (a not clearly defined term if we discount the one drop theory) in Latin America. What to do and how to do it are not easy questions to answer, SqueakBox 17:15, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Well, then we must re-build the article bit by bit, and evolve it over time, creatin a section about african influence, altough probably i would concentrate more on the article about Mexico, i would apreciate your sugestions and critics. Nanahuatzin 17:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

All I really know about is Central America. Though it would be interesting to research South America, SqueakBox 17:45, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Removed Vfd

I have removed Vfd after being for five days. Results: 1 vote for deletion, 6 votes to keep the article. I still don't see how it the article fell in any of the categories for reasons for a Vfd. And according to the votes, I may not be alone in this one. I also remove NPOV, since the article has changed so much since the first NPOV. --Vizcarra 18:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

As the Vfd has not been closed the notice must not be removed from the article either. Either learn how to close a Vfd properly (normally an admin role, though not necessarily) or wait for someone who does know how to close it to do so, SqueakBox 19:14, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected. An admin from the Wikipedia:Cleaning_department has to close the Vfd. --Vizcarra 20:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Name change

I think we should change the name to something like Black Latin American before removing the NPOV tag, as associating black people with Africa when they don't do it themselves is very POV, SqueakBox 19:17, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Black Latin American will imply color of skin and no ethnic origin. Many East Indians are very dark skinned and Australians Aborigines are mostly black. Hispanics are not called Brown-Americans. --Vizcarra 20:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Well can you think of a third option? Afro Latin is not common usage, and many find it offensive as it makes them less Latino than everyone else. Hispanic is an American term, and we have no article for "brown" Latinos. Mostly black means negroid, etc. The name Afro Latin sounds like an American word, which would be fine dealing with a stateside subject but is not ok for the rest of the world, SqueakBox 21:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Many Latin Americans do not like the term Latino either because it makes them feel less (native) American and implies being white (of Roman origin). Afro-Latino was a United States article until you merged it with the Afro-Latin American article which deals with those Latin Americans with African background. I don't see how the term "Afro-Latin American" has no lack of neutrality, in fact change it because "many" (could you cite a source to determine how "many") find it offensive would be a non-NPOV. "Black Latin American" does not imply African origin, but only color of skin. It could be that "mostly black means negroid" but it does not reflect the African origin (as opposed to Australoid black or East Indian dark-skinned). The NPOV tag was designed for an article's content, not an article's title and you haven't provided arguments to support the non-NPOV since the tag was re-introduced by you this morning. Perhaps explaining what are the outstanding issues would clarify the disagreement. --Vizcarra 21:40, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

These people absolutely do not have an African background. Some of their ancestors from centuries back have African roots. I have no sources about the ofensiveness at the moment but the black people I speak to here describe it as stupid and offensive, which I can understand as I would be offended to be called an Austrian merely on the basis of long ago ancestry. The NPOV tag was used while the similarly offensive term Rastafarianism was used to describe the Rastafari movement. Can you provide a source that this term is actually used in all the countries mentioned in the article. We must not go out of our way to offend people, which we are doing here, nor must we use abstract American terminology to desctribe peoples outside America ass this is clearly not an American encyclopedia, SqueakBox 21:50, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

To ask for "a source that this term is actually used in all the countries mentioned in the article" would be an enormous task, don't you think? I don't think anybody is going "out-of-their-way" to offend anyone. If you read the article with the objectivity that most people have you would think otherwise. This is not an American encyclopedia but English is not the language of any Latin American country (unless you would consider Puerto Rico a country, so the terms must have originated from outside Latin America. Again, can you provide any arguments to support your idea that the content of the article is non-NPOV? That's what the NPOV tag suggests per wikipedia policies. --Vizcarra 21:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)