Talk:Women's studies: Difference between revisions

Gender studies is quite distinct from women's studies, to assume that discussion of gender is discussion about women is decidedly sexist.

LegCircus 17:07, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

NO it's not necessarily sexist! Most gender studies programs do indeed use sexist studies of the gender problems of the female 'gender' alone to commit reverse sexism...see Misandry and Nathanson and Youngs research. To men and to women who love men I ask for non-sexist balance here.

There is a separate article on gender studies and another on gender and sexuality studies, though all of these are somewhat scanty at the moment. Maybe you can help improve them, instead of lobbing such vague accusations? -- Rbellin 17:31, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with the contention that gender studies and women's studies are quite distinct, and calling such a statement decidely sexist is decidely narrow-minded and reactionary. Simply looking at academic departments in the US, many women's studies department have changed their name to gender studies or have become departments of women and gender studies . Much of want is considered the domain of women's studies, such as the social roles and expectations of women, are part and parcel of gender studies. Nearly all of the humanities and social science research in women's studies is a subset of gender studies. However, I would agree that women's studies, when it enters biosocial and biological issues of women, breaks off from gender studies, which is a completely cultural concept. While I agree their should be seperate articles for gender and women's studies, these fields are highly connected, and to say others replaces fact with polemic. --chemica 09:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Woman in the image

The woman in the image is described as "an upper-class Pompeiian"; correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that image is a portrait of the poetess Sappho. Should the description be changed? -- Iotha 09:14, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

Sappho wasn't a Pompeiian, was she? So one way or another the current caption ("With stylus and tablet, an upper-class Pompeiian, Sappho, demonstrates her privilege: literacy") is incorrect. FreplySpang (talk) 14:18, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

I have my own qualm with this image, that being that it has less than zero to do with the topic.--Ensrifraff 05:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No, Sappho was not from Pompeii. Sappho wasn't even Roman. She was Greek, and lived on Lesbos, an island off the northwest coast of Asia Minor. I'm not going to change the error, because leaving it there says more about the dubious field of Women's Studies than I ever could. BrianGCrawfordMA 22:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the qualms expressed above about the caption, and I also think a picture of Sappho is irrelevant to this topic. So I've removed it for now. Discussion is, as always, welcome; but please recall that Talk pages are for discussion related to improving the article, not for airing personal opinions of its subject (especially not opinions which interfere with improving the article). -- Rbellin|Talk 23:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Let us be fair: it is well-known, widely-reprinted, and most, if not all, of the reprints say that it was once identified as Sappho. I think it's decorative; and I find it hard to dispute that the history of women's literacy is part of women's studies. Septentrionalis 18:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Weasel-worded claim cut

"Women's studies courses have often been criticized as being misandrist." Often? Then you should have no trouble finding a solid citation. I've cut this until someone does. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

If you really want to leave it in without citations, say something like, "Women's studies could be criticized as misandrist because ..."12.17.189.77 03:55, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

No, that is still POV. My point is, if this criticism has been made by someone of significance, it should be easy to cite for, and if not, it should not be in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 07:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It definitly has been critiziced by people like Warren Farrell, but I don't remember which of his books he says that in. This article needs major work, especially in the citations category.Emmett5 23:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Robinson0120 Ooh, touchy, aren't we? Here's one from a writer: http://www.mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=1966. If you want another one, check this interesting and novel source: www.google.com. In fact, you can type in "Misandry in Women's Studies" and find more examples!

SDSU

Hi This is Joyce Nower. [email protected]. Your article on the formation of the WSP at San Diego State University is correct. Can we settle this so that my emails can be deleted? I made a mistake on the date. I should have looked it up rather than relying on memory. If you need more confirmation, let me know. Thanks. Joyce

Hi Joyce. We generally try to keep all talk sanely accessible to our editors, but I'll do a maneuver there that should prevent it being searched by Google (it will end up only on a "no robots, no follow" page). -- Jmabel | Talk 05:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

If anyone needs to see the discussion about the date of the formation of the WSP at San Diego State University, here's the diff for the edit that removed it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Added template Project Gender Studies

I've added {{WikiProject Gender Studies}} - but please let's discuss it if editors here think it might not be appropriate. Its shaping up to be an umbrella project encompassing gender, feminism, mens movement, and some sexuality stuff. AnAn 05:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

minor punctuation

there's an open parenthesis in the second paragraph, and normally I'd just close it, but I'm not sure where it's supposed to close.

Moofoo.

• Fixed. - Jmabel | Talk 03:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Feminist studies

Is there a distinct difference between Women's studies and Feminist studies? To my understand one is a subcategory of other. If anyone feels the same way, then perhaps are merge should be initiated. Sjschen 21:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Robinson0120 From a cursory glance it appears that the feminist studies is based more in gender than the explicit study of women's role, but I'm not quite sure.

Conference

I have cut what appears to have been an entire section on a not particularly notable conference. It might merit a mention somewhere; it certainly does not merit such lengthy mention in this article. - Jmabel | Talk 03:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But a section for conferences and meetings is necessary - as knowledge of women's studies is somehow discoursed and built based on those. I agree with Jmabel that what was mentioned is not the most notable one; somebody, however, should do a search and suggest the notable international conferences that merit a mention.147.8.22.234 09:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)NF

Women's Studies in areas other than USA and UK

Expert help is needed to give the full picture of women's studies, based on this White page.

Criticisms of Women's Studies as a disicpline

Why does a critique—more of a diatribe—by the not terribly notable Karen Lehrman merit half the article? - Jmabel | Talk 01:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the fact that it takes up almost half the article is more a comment on the ill-developed state of the rest of the article than an indicator of truly excessive length, but I agree that that section does not really belong here in any but the most abridged form. It's fine to have brief citations of notable anti-women's-studies positions here, but not lengthy recapitulations of relatively little-known ones. I'd support either moving that material to a more appropriate place (like its author's article, if one exists) or deleting it outright. -- Rbellin|Talk 03:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's give 7 days for someone who wants to salvage this to do so; if no one does so, though, my inclination is just to remove it. And I agree that the article is ill-developed. - Jmabel | Talk 04:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Are we back in the USSR, gentlemen!? Are you guys KGB agents for the ideological wing of the radical feminist Sisterhood? Do you care at all about wiki values of free speech and NPOV or will you try to do to me here what these and many other authors assert happens to students in womens studies? I insist that you discuss specific issues in a constructive fashion before you remove anything here to prevent a needless edit war.

To call this content Lerhman's "diatribe" is disengenous. Did you read The Lipstick Proviso or are you just spouting uninformed opinions. Lehrman summarizes Professing Feminism to make her case there. I will be glad to bring in Professing Feminism directly if you keep whining about 'diatribes'. However, please keep in mind that many feminist and non-feminist whistleblowers have been claiming severe personal harrassment for being brave enough to criticize the reigning radical feminist establishment. I expect better from you and from other NPOV wiki editors here...please be open-minded, specific and constructive with your concerns.

To bring up "length" as a show breaker in a tiny undeveloped article is absurd. This entire article needs to be expanded to reflect the realities of women's studies. (For example several authors have explained the ideologies underpinning womens studies. That content is relevant here too.) Criticism is just one essential part of a longer article which I imagine this article will become given women's studies' keystone role in propragating feminist ideology and indoctrinating young feminist political activists in our so-called 'universities of higher learning'.

Where is 'notable' used as a test in wikipedias policies. I could have brought in Paglia who is a quite notable intellectual but I chose Lehrman, Patia and Koerge because they have been credited for bringing "rigorous common sense" to the feminist debate. As 'notable' dissenters from TODAY's Russia show it takes just one person to puncture a balloon full of bombast but of course they usually die from (KGB?) poison. This is wikipidia so please refrain from censorship here based on some kind of politically correct popularity contest.

I believe the best place for specific criticisms of womens studies is in the article itself because that is where specifics are most relevant. There are whole chapters of these criticisms from many diverse authors...(Paglia, Hoff-Summers, Nathanson and Young etc) and of course Professing Feminism is a whole book on the subject. The content I added skims the surface of Professing Feminism. It is hard to come up with a more 'abridged' form than this! However, if you have constructive suggestions after a glance at sources I listed in references and the link (Off Course) about how to tighten this I for one would be glad to listen to them. However please spare me attempts to delete content just because it is unpopular to those who have an interest in propagrating propraganda, policing (internal or external) dissenters and other cunning Stalinistic strategies that demean and destroy well established Western rights to free speech and civil liberties. (drop in editor) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.102.254.114 (talk • contribs) 25 November 2006.

You ask "Where is 'notable' used as a test in wikipedias policies?" Please see Wikipedia:Notability.

If you want 'notable' I would be glad to pull in Chessler, Paglia, Hoff-Summers, Kate Fillion, Nathanson and Young, and many others. Then I expect someone would whine about 'length'. The fact is that a whole host of independent authors have made these claims with Professing Feminism being the most comprehensive and least rhetorical. (anonymous)

I stand by "diatribe". I'm aware that Lehrman has done some (much) more extended writing on the subject. You might try mining that for her more substantive points. - Jmabel | Talk 01:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

POV Check: Further reading list

I could be mistaken, but I believe that the first five (or eight) listings in the "Further reading" list are basically hostile to the field of women's studies (and the last one is not exactly "friendly" either. Are we really serving a reader well by this? Someone comes to the page presumably wanting to learn more about this academic discipline. Where are the overviews? I doubt that this pattern is similar for any other academic discipline (unless the same people have been adding "reading lists" to African American studies, etc.). - Jmabel | Talk 22:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you're not mistaken. This article seems to have gotten a lot of attention from anti-women's-studies POV-pushers (like the anonymous user who replied above with complaints about Stalinism) and very little from people with any real knowledge of the field. I'm sure that the most basic perusal of introductory women's studies syllabi would yield a very different reading list, and summary of the field, than this one. It's not that there is no place in a well-developed article for a brief summary of positions critical of the field, but there's almost nothing else here, and that makes the critical stuff very unduly prominent. -- Rbellin|Talk 23:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

These authors indeed do use syllabi and many other sources from women's studies programs to make their exhaustive cases. Chessler who has always been a brave voice on male and female issues has several chapters blasting feminist academic practices in The Death of Feminism: What's Next in the Struggle for Women's Freedom, Phyllis Chesler, 2006, ISBN 1-4039-6898-5. Hoff Sommers has many examples of this in a chapter in Who Stole Feminism. We are indeed serving readers well because this nation is founded of free speech and civil dialogue. Therefore young students need to know about these well-known studies as a warning. If you find women's studies programs using sharing Professing Feminism in class rather than trying to silence it (as Lehrnman suspects) please let say so. NO ONE is 'hostile' to women studies as a program what they are hostile to is terrible scholarship within women studies that take us back to the dark ages. I insist that we stick to the issues rather than calling people names here. If you have CREDIBLE sources that show womens studies (in general) as a place where fine scholarship is standard by all means please balance these studies with your sources and content. Otherwise please stop whining about these courageous whistleblowers and their research. To go up against what Chessler calls "cowardly herd animals and grim totalitatians" was no fun for these authors...so please spare me what they had to bear. (anonymous)