Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera: Difference between revisions

Opera Composer of the Month Proposals A simple script will automatically replace the text on the front page with the appropriate month when the time comes. Here are the next three months. - Adam Cuerden talk [edit] Composer of the Month for July 2025 Click Here to set up July's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for July 2025 Click Here to set up July's Opera of the Month! Click here to show the August and September Opera and Composer of the Month preparation areas [edit] Composer of the Month for August 2025 Click Here to set up August's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for August 2025 Click Here to set up August's Opera of the Month! [edit] Composer of the Month for September 2025 Click Here to set up September's Composer of the Month! [edit] Opera of the Month for September 2025 Click Here to set up September's Opera of the Month!

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List of roles / German gothic script

I've sort of more-or-less finished my Der Vampyr article. For the list of singers at the first performance, I've used two sources, the Oxford Dictionary of Opera, which just gives a list of surnames, and a playbill that I found here, and I've filled in the ones that seem to fit. BUT I'm not very good at reading Gothic script, so a) I'm not totally sure that I've put all the names in the right place - for example, should "Röckert" be against Davenaut or Suse or both? - and b) I'm reluctant to guess at the others. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Second, should I put "Herr" in front of the men's names and "Mad." or "Frau" for the women? I doubt if many of their first names will be easy to find.

Third, I'm fairly sure that the first singer of Emmy was Wilhelmine Schröder-Devrient in her younger days (she'd have been 24), so I've put in a link. But, if she was married to Karl Devrient then, would she be designated "Mad."? I thought "Frau" meant Mrs. Or is "Frau" an abbreviation for Fraulein? Puzzled in York. --GuillaumeTell 18:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I assume that the playbill is out of copyright - might it be worth adding it to the page? --GuillaumeTell 18:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Answers in London: Aye, och, the play bill will be out of copyright. Uploading it to Commons might be a good idea, then it can be easily used across all the WikiMedia projects. It's public domain as the a 2D reproduction of a work that is itself Public Domain, as the original artist died more than 70 years ago. Putting "Herr" and "Frau" is probably a good idea if the first names cannot be found: though Grove might have something? Anyone got Grove open in front of them? What a mess that Gothic is. And zooming doesn't seem to work very well. I'll try and decipher. As far as I'm aware "Frau" is for married status, but someone had better confirm this. Best, Moreschi 21:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

When the Oxford Dictionary of Opera only gives surnames it usually means that there is an article on the individual elsewhere in the book, where the full name is given. - Kleinzach 23:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? That certainly is not the case for anybody in the list of singers under Der Vampyrin my 1992 edition, nor for most of those in the other lists of singers on the same page, nor even for all listed under a well-known opera (Le Nozze di Figaro) on another page, I'm afraid. --GuillaumeTell 01:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, I have been able to find the full names, but I don't have the book here so I am not sure which edition I have. - Kleinzach 11:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Cans of worms

1. I've had something to say about the arrangement of the List of major opera composers on its Talk page, and I plan to improve some of the more lacklustre entries (e.g. eliminating the reference to the dreaded "standard repertory" under Delibes, since the article on Lakmé states that "it is inexplicably rare for this opera to actually be performed" - which chimes with my own observations, or lack of observations). Delibes is one of the more bizarre composers in the list, and I've been worrying about the relative staus of the lists that were used, and what the biases of their authors might have been, and how long ago the lists were first produced, and how long each list is relative to the others, and suchlike. Books like Kobbé seem to me to add newly fashionable operas but don't remove those that have dropped out of fashion.... Is there a statistician in the house?

2. Surely it's only a matter of time before the List of important operas has to be dealt with in the same way as the composers - see the late Marc Shepherd's remarks at the end of the Talk page. I'll be happy to discuss/help.

3. Is anyone working on the November composers of the month? I don't know any of the red-linked operas, but could possibly have a go at Ward's Crucible if no-one else is working on it.

4. Also, is anyone planning to do anything about the December composers? I feel that if this sort of exercise is going to work, then we each need to volunteer here to do some specific opera by the end of the month.

--GuillaumeTell 19:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll do what I can for Ethel Smyth's operas. Adam Cuerden ^talk 19:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to improve any of the composer entries you like. Moreschi and I did the overwhelming majority of them at breakneck speed and some of those composers obviously took our fancy more than others. Gershwin is a particularly dull effort by yours truly. Just make sure you provide solid inline references for any statements you make. Yes, there are a few oddballs there. Poulenc should be there and not Walton, in my opinion. As I say, it's not my list, it's not your list, it's the list our sources provided and there's something to displease everybody. The most important thing is every great great opera composer is there. The votes at the bottom of the page give a rough idea of genuine importance too. Seriously, I really wouldn't be very happy messing around with the list at this stage. This whole thing kicked off on September 6 and it's only just fizzling out now. You really had to be there to appreciate what I'm saying. In five years time, we'll do the whole thing again. But for now I want it to stay put even if Gustave and not Msrc-Antoine Charpentier appears there. (Yes, the other list is next in line for a fix and we'll be glad of your help). --Folantin 20:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Navigational boxes

I've noticed that works by Prokofiev now have their own navigational boxes (the opera template below was created, appropriately enough, by User:SergeiProkofiev, and was inserted into the articles by User:203.185.57.66). Maybe we ought to contemplate similar boxes for other prolific opera composers? I have no expertise in this area, but am willing to help if someone will take the lead.

Incidentally, the boxes (including also Prokofiev's ballets, symphonies, etc.) are in the category "Music navigational boxes", sub-category "Musician templates" - surrounded by Prince, Richard Pryor (?!?) and lots of other people, except Beethoven and Shostakovich, who didn't write classical music - whereas the existing "Opera navigational templates" sub-category is in the "Performing arts navigational boxes" category.

Template:Prokofiev Operas --GuillaumeTell 14:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. These navigational boxes are useful but I'd suggest introducing them gradually starting with well-covered major composers (i.e. those that are all blue). Kleinzach 21:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

How about the following? --GuillaumeTell 18:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks very good. Where will it be located? Bottom of the page or on the side? Which is the best place, I wonder? Kleinzach 21:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It still needs some tweaking - operas shouldn't run onto a second line, and alpha order needs to be sacrificed to that end. The Prokofiev box is always at the bottom, but I think that the side might be good. Maybe I'll stick it into different places in one or two Mozart articles tomorrow and ask for opinions. --GuillaumeTell 22:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I've rearranged it slightly and have placed it in Il re pastore, top right. Thoughts? (And I can't see why the text doesn't start further up - any ideas, anyone?) --GuillaumeTell 22:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

These things are tricky because of the variable line lengths, but maybe one title per line might work? - Kleinzach 17:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I sorted that out (and replaced the previous version with what you now see above), but do look at the positioning of the box in the Il re pastore article. I've also nearly converted it into a shorter wider box for possible use below articles and will post that here today or tomorrow. --GuillaumeTell 22:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to use a more horizontal box: Adam Cuerden ^talk 11:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Template:G&S

Opera project user box

Greetings to all on a brief visit (I hope to be active again next year . . . .)

The opera project user box (which seems to have been recoded with the result that most members are no longer listed) at Category:Participants in WikiProject Opera now has a template attached to the effect that "This category is being considered for renaming to Category:WikiProject Jazz participants in accordance with Wikipedia's Categories for Discussion policies."

Perhaps someone knows what is happening here?

All the best. - Kleinzach 20:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That template, I think, is showing wrong info: the actual categories for discussion page shows that it is proposed that the cat be renamed to "WikiProject Opera participants". That looks much more sane. Best, Moreschi 20:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I just changed Jazz to Opera. As for most members not being listed, I don't think that signing up on the Project Page automatically puts you into this category - you have to manually add yourself or grab one of the user boxes from the very bottom of the Project Page, miles from the signing-up area, and a lot of signers-up seem never to have done that, AFAICS. --GuillaumeTell 22:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. What happened with the user boxes was that someone changed the code with the result that the original version was de-linked to the participants page. (This happened to me and a number of others.) Not very important but perhaps it would be better to decide on one official version of the project user box? (The sign-up list of the project page is something separate . . .) - Kleinzach 16:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

American Indian Grand Opera

I see that about 20 per cent of the Grand Opera article now deals with 'American Indian Grand Opera'. Does anyone know why this subject is treated so prominently? Incidentally it seems that the contrubution has been signed by someone called Brent Michael Davids - a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias?

Is there a history here that someone knows about? Best. - Kleinzach 17:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that too on the Opera page. I thought it was a hoax. It really belongs in an American opera article, or even a page of its own.--Folantin 17:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Peculiar. Especially when this phrase, when googled, gets precisely 2 Ghits. Confused. Whatever the authenticity, it certainly throws the page out of whack. Moreschi 18:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently we're talking about a genre which includes one known example (The Sun Dance), which (as far as I can work out from googling around) was never professionally produced. How it fits into the specific category "grand opera" is not stated either. --Folantin 20:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

All praise to Folantin's googling skills. How you found even that much out of such minimal info is beyond me:)) Shouldn't we ask the editor who has written this info? And yes, I can't see how it links to Grand Opera either! Moreschi 21:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I got most of the info from here [1]. Googling "Gertrude Bonnin" and "grand opera" doesn't turn up anything relevant. --Folantin 21:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the best solution would be to split the material off into a separate article? It appears to be perfectly legitimate - just inappropriate tacked onto the grand opera article. It is likely that the writer doesn't know that 'grand opera' is a genre within the opera tradition. - Kleinzach 22:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:BOLD et al, but we should probably inform the creator first. That would seem to be the best solution - a move to Native American Opera? The word "Grand" doesn't seem to be appropriate. Cheers, Moreschi 22:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

So what do you want to say? "Hello. Thanks for your contribution to Grand Opera. However, it may be you have assigned the new information to the wrong article. "Grand opera" is a very specific musical genre and is not a synonym for opera in general. Do your sources describe Bonnin's work as "American Indian grand opera" or just "American Indian opera"? It may be the case that your information would be better in an article of its own, for example Native American opera." That's not too good, I know, but I'm not really with it today. Something along those lines nevertheless. Meyerbeer should get the star role in a Grand Opera article. --Folantin 12:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have placed a note about our discussion on the talk page of Grand Opera. The approach to the author (as drafted above by Folantin) seems perfectly reasonable to me. - Kleinzach 17:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I'm Brent Michael Davids (www.brentmichaeldavids.com), one of the top Am. Indian composers in the USA. There are mabny Indian operas, but Gertrude's opera was indeed a Grand opera, fitting that definition. The entry could be split probably, because there are other operas listed which were not grand operas. Both are needed. If English operas, denoting those created by English composers, are listed than Am. Indian grand opera is legitimate for this entry. However, if the article must be weighted to correspond to the field as a whole, the article may be too heavy on Am. Indian grand opera. There are more though they are not easily googled and my sources were from books that I own, and ones trhat I myself have been featured in (and thereby happen to have in my personal library). I would recommend shrtening the Indian grand opera entry to balance the weight of the entire entry, and splitting off another category of American Indian opera, which can then be greatly expanded. There are also sub categories of Indianist operas for the more general Indian opera category. At any rate, it takes time to build up these articles, and there are only a limited number of American Indian composer scholars around to do it. My own CV is here <http://www.filmcomposer.us/Davids_CV.pdf> if you wsh to corroborate who I am. Thanks! --Brent Michael Davids 00:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The article in question contains the following explanation:

"Grand Opera is a style of opera characterized by grandiose scale. Heroic and historical subjects, large casts, vast orchestras, richly detailed sets, sumptuous costumes and spectacular scenic effects . . . Other characteristics include continuous music (recitative instead of spoken dialogue), a four or five-act structure and the prevalence of ballets and large scale processions."

So my first question would be whether the opera by Gertrude Bonnin fits this description. Most operas don't, of course, and if it doesn't that in itself is not an issue, except that the section doesn't belong in the article. Best - Kleinzach 15:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, most definitely, Bonnin's opera was a grand opera, fitting the above description. the entry is needed for a complete encyclopedic entry. If one is attempting to suggest that Indian operas are less prevent because less important, that argument is without merit. Am. Indians composing operas are the result of racist practices in America, and the genocide against Indians, even at the time Bonnin was composing. The records are not common on Google, and are more obscured because Indians ourselves are obscured, both in the history and in the United States generally, whose efforts are to forget the atrocities rather than cherish them. In this, the "them" is Indians, and as a consequence, Indian grand opera. One cannot dismiss Bonnin because she was rare, in fact, she must be included because she was rare, that is the whole point of an encyclopedia. But I must point out there are more Indian operas and they will be included, and as this is not a living bio issue, the entry must stand so it can be expanded. Charlotte Heth of the Smithsonian, and Vicky Levine of University of CO-Boulder have more references, and these are published sources. Time will permit their inclusion. My orig. suggestion is best, add another Indian opera split but leave this 'grand' entry here. If someone wishes to abbreviate the entry so as to give the article its proper weight, on an equity basis to other grand operas, please do, but split this article first so the information here is not lost. Thanks. --Brent Michael Davids 18:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all I would suggest you write an article on the Sun Dance. That will establish what exactly we are talking about here. It's much easier for everybody involved if we have the specific information first before we move into questions about what is appropriate/proportionate for general introductory articles.

It may be worth mentioning that the present article only covers the main 'schools' of grand opera (French, German, Italian). Grand Opera is meant an introduction to the subject not an exhaustive study mentioning every work that has ever been performed, let alone every work which has ever been written. Regards. - Kleinzach 20:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Stablepedia

Beginning cross-post.

See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team#Stablepedia. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 23:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.

Hmm. This appears to be an attempt to create a new kind of DIY Wikpedia project within user space. - Kleinzach 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant anyway as we have 1FA and that's virtually it as regards "stable" articles. Moreschi 20:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Composers of the Month for January/February

We started the Composer of the Month list to encorage new members to contribute as well as to concentrate on areas where our coverage is poor.

I note that virtually no-one has written anything about the operas listed for this month (November), not even those who made up the list. Is this because no-one is interested or because the information is not available? Many of the works are new to me. Are they listed in Grove?

I wonder whether the list of women composers for December will generate any more interest? The Musgrave operas have short entries in Grove, and L’amour de loin has enjoyed critical success but the others? Is anyone going to write about them?

I recommend that for January we return to a policy of featuring the most famous composers. My suggestion would be to do Rameau, Rossini or Offenbach. Any preferences or other ideas? Best - Kleinzach 16:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Further to my note above, I see that the Amy Beach work has been omitted from the December list, (also the statement that the operas are not listed on The opera corpus is no longer correct - they are). I would make the necessary changes myself but I can't locate the text to modify it. How does the template work now? Can anyone explain how the thing has been set up? Thanks. Kleinzach 21:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree about January's choice. we should have an achievable objective. I'd say we should either take a famous composer who wrote a lot of works (Rameau, Rossini or Offenbach are ideal examples) and try to create stubs (at the very least) for every single one of their operas, or we take a major composer who wrote only a handful of operas (e.g. Weber) and try to provide good, solid articles for each of his works. If we choose the former method, I vote for Rameau. --Folantin 22:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: By the way, List of major opera composers is now a featured list. It only took three months of agony to get there!--Folantin 22:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I am happy to second Rameau for January. There are about 20 red titles and it would be good to start all or most of them as stubs - on the basis that the stubs are substantial enough to be worth reading at creation. A good model would be the Handel stubs we did before (e.g. Berenice or Faramondo). (The stubs can then be fleshed out later by people who have seen the operas and have specialist literature etc.) - Kleinzach 20:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Congrats to all on the List of major opera composers. Obviously a painstaking (if not tortuous) piece of work. - Kleinzach 20:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Rameau sounds good. BTW, Kleinzach, it was completely tortuous. Check out the talkpage archives and where it ended up. Cheers, Moreschi 20:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You all deserve medals. What kind do you want? I'll send a bulk order to the factory! - Kleinzach 20:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, let's see. OBE's? Orders of the Garter? Knighthoods? Seriously, though, I hope I never have to tangle with such an invidious situation again. Good can come out of conflict though, - hey, we got a featured list! - but Boisseau got what he wanted by outright bullying, and that was unacceptable. Cheers, Moreschi 20:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have filled in Rameau for January (above) as it seems there are no objections. (Incidentally, Minkowski is giving a Rameau concert in Grenoble with the Musiciens du Louvre on December 15 but unfortunately I haven't been able to get tickets . . .) - Kleinzach 20:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How about we try the other extreme with Weber for February? Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I second that, and will volunteer for Euryanthe and Die drei Pintos. Maybe if I start now they'll be ready for February. --GuillaumeTell 22:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Weber for February. The three existing articles all need work as well as the unwritten ones. - Kleinzach 23:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Great. I was planning to have decent articles on all Rameau's works (plus a revised biography) by the end of 2007 anyway, so this will be a big help. Weber is a good choice too. Maybe Adam and the rest of the G&S crew will be particularly interested in overhauling the Oberon article, given it was set to an English libretto by James Robinson Planche and they seem to have a lot of info about 19th century British theatre. --Folantin 09:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Planche was one of the major influences on the early Gilbert, and recognised Gilbert as the heir to a certain fairy play genre he developed (it's more noticable in Gilbert's earlier works, mind), so it should be interesting to research. Adam Cuerden ^talk 10:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Operas with a known first performance date in England (1800-1900)

That reminds me: If there's any opera written in English or with a known date of first performance in England within the period 1800-1900, please tell me: It is likely I can pick up some nice out-of-copyright images for it in the course of some other research. Adam Cuerden ^talk 10:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just left you a note about Oberon but I see that Folantin has beaten me to it! To answer your broader question Grove has most of the London premiere dates for 19th century operas. It's relatively easy to get the dates for the Bellinis, Donizettis, Verdis, Wagners, Gounods etc etc. however IMO having pictures of the original (Itaian, French, German) productions is really much more interesting than a national premiere elsewhere.

Incidentally, one good source of illustrations is the German Wikipedia. Tell me if I am wrong but I think there's no problem simply copying the pictures straight onto our pages. - Kleinzach 11:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the original productions are better. But it doesn't hurt to have others if we can get them. A well-illustrated article never hurt anyone, after all. - But, aye. Let's grab from other Wikipedias when we can. Adam Cuerden ^talk 11:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

This month's composer of the month

I feel reasonably confident of my ability to get Smyth up to shape, but not the other composers. Anyone else working on them? Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do for Judith Weir's works, starting with stubs for those listed. --GuillaumeTell 11:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)