User talk:BrynLlywelyn: Difference between revisions

Hello It is my intention to add historical information to the Wikipedia Encyclopedia. After many years of research into early Welsh history, I continue to lecture in Europe and the USA on the subject, and give regular talks to students. My specialist period is 450-1370. I have worked on historical programmes that have appeared on television (BBC/HTV/ITV/S4C) the latest a BBC history production linked with Open University earlier this year, and have talked on radio on many occasions. I live in Eryri / Snowdonia, Cymru / Wales.

About Catherine

• I gather the sources that I believe it states she was also their daughter. The second one I am not so sure because websites are not always right. The first, I believe that source is where I found it. If it is wrong then you are welcome to delete it. It seems to make sense that she was their daughter but perhaps she may have been an illegimate child of Llewelyn "the last". RosePlantagenet 20:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The website

• Hiya. Welcome to Wikipedia! Historical information is always good. I see you've added the URL http://www.llywelyn.co.uk/ to tons of pages on Wikipedia. It's generally a good idea not to add the same link to multiple related articles, and I suspect it will be removed from a lot of the articles. The current policy says Use of Wikipedia to link to a website that you own, maintain or are acting as an agent for is strongly recommended against and suggests raising the site on the Talk page. Also, there are lots of references to copyright in your edit summaries. Are you including material directly from that website? Essays elsewhere don't always fit with Wikipedia's ideas about article style: Aber Garth Celyn will need a lot of "wikification", for example.

Incidentally, if you are mostly interested in Welsh history, you might also be interested in the Wikipedia Middle Ages project, the history portal and the Welsh Wikipedians' noticeboard.

Hope some of this is useful. Telsa (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Response

• Thank you for that useful information, and I take your comments on board.

I am the person responsible for the content of the Welsh historical information on the www.llywelyn.co.uk website. My specialist period in Welsh historical research is fifth to fourteenth century, and it is all done from original documentation held in archives in the U.K. and Europe. I have copyright on my own research. I feel strongly that history is about reality, not myth, and that we have a duty to the next generation to pass on facts as we find them. I believe that this is the thinking behind Wikipedia and I welcome it. BrynLlywelyn 23:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleting Catherine

• I agree with, Telsa.

If it is said on this site that Catherine was the daughter of Llewelyn then most certainly enough people believe that she may been his daughter. I would also make one more point to you. It was common for a popular person back in that time be written about in a perfect light. Llewelyn most likely had mistresses and illegmiate children, whether you choose to believe it or not. Most men of that time did. So to claim he never had an illegimate child makes no sense. RosePlantagenet 19:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Catherine

Under medieval Welsh law the phrase 'illegitimate'did not apply. 'Illegitimacy' was not a stigma, and all offspring had rights. If Llywelyn ap Gruffudd had had a child he would have most certainly acknowledged her, as did his brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd with his children. In all my years of research, going through original documents, I have not found one single contemporary reference to Catherine being a daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. The 'ap Gruffudd' as far as I can see was added to the 'Llywelyn' in a geneology of Owain Glyndwr compiled several centuries later, and this has been copied on occasion since. This type of error was common at that particular time and it is obvious how it happened.

The most telling point is that if Catherine had have been a daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, then she surely would have been taken with her Gwenllian and girl cousins to Lincolnshire to be locked away on King Edward's instructions. Edward's correspondence (Public Record office, London), Exchequer Rolls listing payments, Ministers' Accounts, Ancient Petitions and so forth, Vatican Library MSS, together with the records available from the various Gilbertine Priories make no mention of Catherine. No payments were made by the Crown for her upkeep. Nothing. And there is nothing in the thirteenth century Welsh Records.

Various fictions have attached themselves to Catherine in recent years. This has led to interest in the woman being fairly widespread. But I stress that these are fictions, not fact, and Wikipedia, I believe, has a strict policy about passing on genuine factual knowledge, from genuine prime sources, in as academic a way as possible. BrynLlywelyn 23:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with you. I've never seen any evidence for Catherine's existence. Deb 12:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well, then I would suggest that you both check out the family history of Owen Tudor, as there are numerous sources to back that up. Someone along the way may have suggested she was Llewelyn "the last" daughter, however, whether she was or not she did exist and was the ancestor of Owen Tudor. Just because she may not have been Llewelyn's daughter does not mean she did not exist. The mystery is who's daugther was she and given that records were not always accurate back then it is any one's guess. RosePlantagenet 17:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hello RosePlantagenet

'Catherine'. I am aware of Owain Tudur's pedigree having spent more time and effort than I care to mention, going through the original prime source material in the Public Record Office, London, the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth, the Lambeth Palace Archives and elsewhere. There is a line of descent for Owain Tudur tracing back to 'Philip ap Ifor, Lord of Iscoed and Catherine ferch Llywelyn'. And yes a 'Catherine ferch Llywelyn' almost certainly existed. The expansion of the pedigree to 'ferch Llywelyn ap Gruffudd' happened much later and is one of a great many suspect additions that found their way in to pedigrees compiled from the Tudor period onwards. In some cases it was deliberately done simply to boost prestige. The life and times of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is remarkably well documented. I can only stress the fact that in the original thirteenth century documents, including those of the Crown of England, there is no mention whatsover anywhere that Llywelyn ap Gruffudd had a daughter Catherine. All the records, including correspondence, show Gwenllian as being his only child.

On 28 June 1283 Edward proclaimed that he had the 'last of the treacherous lineage' in his grasp. (see Calendar of Welsh Rolls, 291-2; Foedera, I, ii, 630; Registrum Ricardi de Swinfield Episcipi Herefordensis.) There was no 'Catherine' among the names, and on this issue Edward was meticulous. In addition, in 1289 there was an Inquiry concerning the custody of the royal girls. The Inquiry checked into their whereabouts. (Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1281-92, 321; Foedera, i, ii, 712). Again, there is no 'Catherine'. Edward most certainly would not have let a daughter of the Prince of Wales go free.

BrynLlywelyn 00:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC) 3 December 2006

Secret Terms. Just to add to that. In November 1282, one month before he was put to death, Llywelyn was offered secret terms; £1000 a year and an estate in England if he would surrender his nation to Edward. The offer also stated that care would be taken of 'the daughter of Llywelyn'. The only one. BrynLlywelyn 15:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Edward

Hi, Bryn. I'm looking at your contributions with awe and admiration, but I fear you may be unaware of the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view rule. In a couple of places I've removed sentences that come a bit close to breaking this rule. I may agree with you that Edward I was a horrible man, but we are obliged to be as impartial as possible when we discuss him in an encyclopaedia article. Deb 18:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Deb. I know where you are coming from on this, and I take your point, but it is hard to be totally impartial when you sit in the Public Record Office, reading Edwards letters and orders. In January 1283, with Snowdonia circled by a massive army, Edward offered his troops one shilling for the 'head of every Welshman', (of any age), brought back to camp, and he gave the instruction that his men were to be encouraged to rape any Welsh woman that they came upon. This ethnic cleansing of the heartland of Welsh Wales lasted for nine months. None of this gets into the official history books; history is often sanitized, and that is sad.

I can back my statements with prime source references every time where necessary, but I will tone my comments down for the reasons that you give. Many thanks. Bryn BrynLlywelyn 00:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Bear in mind that it's okay to say "Edward offered his troops one shilling for the 'head of every Welshman', (of any age), brought back to camp", as long as you can cite sources. It's less acceptable to say "Edward attempted ethnic cleansing in Wales", because that is debatable. Deb 12:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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Hello!

I have recently discovered your edits on Wikipedia and that has led me to the website of Garth Celyn. Having read Sharon Kay Penman's books Here Be Dragns and others I have a special interest in Carth Celyn. Thank you for posting this information. It lead me to the offical site and .... wow! To see the tower and long house is amazing! Are there other pictures that can be viewed? I am sure I shall have other questions for you as well.Drachenfyre 19:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Garth Celyn Garth Celyn is a really special, timeless place, and a key one in Welsh history. This was once to all extent and purpose the 'capital' of Wales and the headquarters of resistance to domination by England. Then after 1283, just left to fall into ruin. Sharon's novels help to bring medieval Aber to life and as Aber Garth Celyn was deliberately written out of the history books after 1283, they have introduced a world wide audience to the two Llywelyn's and so much more. Historical documents are still coming to light, and more is now known about the murder of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd than when Sharon wrote The Reckoning. But thanks to Wikipedia, that can all now be shared. Will get some more photographs on line. Best wishes Bryn BrynLlywelyn 15:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Minor edits

Just a small point: I don't think it's appropriate to mark edits such as this as minor edits. Minor edits are usually simple things like fixing typos, whereas any addition of information (of which you have been doing much — keep it up!) is generally considered major. --Stemonitis 11:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Bore Dda Stemonitis I take your point, and thank you for that. I see that you have reversed the spelling of Carnedd Llywelyn to Carnedd Llewelyn on the page with that name. Whats in a name? Here in Eryri, where I live, names carry a great significance and though our bards take liberties with words and make puns in a time honoured and highly complex way, we try to get the spelling of names correct whenever we can. Carnedd Llywelyn has been incorrectly entered on modern OS maps as Carnedd Llewelyn, and until the O.S. reprint, unfortunately that is the way that it appears. LLEW means Lion in English. LLYW means Leader. Twysog Llywelyn, Prince of Wales (killed 11 December 1282)is remembered among his people as 'Ein Llyw Olaf', Our Last Leader. He lived nearby at Garth Celyn, at the entrance to the Aber valley. His name was Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, and the mountain, very significantly, is named in his honour, to his memory. Here in the heart of Welsh Wales the landscape keeps faith with memory.

Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri, Snowdonia National Park Authority, use the correct spelling, Carnedd Llywelyn (see their website). The Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, Wales use Carnedd Llywelyn (see 'Caernarvonshire Vol. 1, East, page151, entry 552, Carnedd Llywelyn. Enwau Eryri, Iwan Arfon Jones (ISBN: 0 86243 374 6) uses Carnedd Llywelyn The Mountains of Wales, Ioan Bowen Rees (ISBN 0-7083-1163-6) uses Carnedd Llywelyn The name is spelt correctly in countless numbers of books and articles written by local people, as it is in documents in UCNW, Bangor, Archives and elsewhere.

So where do we go from here? By far the majority of people who use Wikipedia will not have an OS map. Many people, interested in the mountains of Snowdonia, for what ever reason, do know of Snowdonia National Park and might check out the Park's website. A title to the Wikipedia page with both spellings, might resolve the issue for the present. My own preference would be to retitle the page Carnedd Llywelyn, and have a link to the alternative spelling. However, all the text on the page surely must contain own our local and recognised spelling of the name. BrynLlywelyn 11:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have responded to this question on my talk page --Stemonitis 11:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Llywelyn ap gruffudd

Regarding this edit: blanking a page is considered pure vandalism. I suggest you review all the redirects to Llywelyn the Last as included in this list before you tinker with just one of them. -- RHaworth 07:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Vandalism certainly was not my intention. Was attempting to remove the 'redirect' at the time. This is meant to be a different page, with historical references and sources.

BrynLlywelyn 09:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, I wouldn't remove that redirect. The reason that particular page is a redirect is probably the capitalisation. There are problems with upper and lower case and the search facility in Wikipedia. You can read the gory details in section 1.3 of WP:CAPS (yes, another guideline.. :)) Wiki pages along the lines of "Firstname lastname" (or "Enw ap enw" and "Enw Ap enw") get redirected to the properly-capitalised versions. Quite often they are deliberately created purely to provide the redirect. If you want to expand a page, you want the version the redirects point to, not the one all in lowercase. Telsa (talk) 10:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I am trying to share my many years of prime source historical research with as many people as I can, but am blipping on technical issues (not my strong point) at the moment. Appreciate any help that you give. From a wintry Snowdonia, greetings. BrynLlywelyn 10:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Welsh Wikipedians' notice board

I notice that you placed a notice at Talk:Wales, regarding our discussion about the Carneddau. You may not be aware of the Welsh Wikipedians' notice board, which is probably a better place for such notices, and will probably reach more people. You might find it useful, given your interests. --Stemonitis 13:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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