Talk:Mr. Satan/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

Wow

Wow, I wasn't aware it was against some rule to tell known contributors that there is a vote going on. Also didn't know I wasn't allowed to be tongue-in-cheek when addressing someone directly on a user's talk page. I wasn't told the last vote was going on, missed it of my own accord, and many other ppl did too. So telling people whats up is wrong? I suppose the better method would be limit it to whomever has the page on a watchlist or happens to drift by in the next couple of days, and anyone who doesn't think to right off the bat or is busy in r/l or for any number of reasons doesn't log in for a couple of days officially doesn't count? I didn't tell any of those ppl what to vote for. Not all of them voted last time. My opinion on the matter was obvious and expressed sarcastically, but speaking my mind on a talk page is hardly a violation of any guideline or policy. Onikage725 17:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. Never-fucking-mind (ooo, a swear, good thing Wiki isn't censored, though I'm sure someone is now honor bound to remind me to be civil). Telling editors who have worked to achieve consistent naming conventions for Dragon Ball articles that a vote is going on is "vote stacking." A vote flying under the radar over the span of a couple of days is considered an adequate assessment of worldwide consensus? I'm done with this damn article. It IS interesting that on a previous move request, WhisperToMe left a note for TJSpyke, JRP, Takuthehedgehog, VoiceofTreason, GeneralDuke, Starone, Kafziel, and Dhartung, and it was all gravy. Yet DesireCampbell and I are considered vote stackers for employing the use of sarcasm? Grow up. I did NOT say "Go vote for Mr. Satan," I said "Care to weigh in?" We're all big boys and girls, and if my comment was going to influence anyone's vote, they were likely going to vote that way anyway. I in no way told anyone how to vote. In fact, the vote I was referencing, I myself wasn't around to vote on.

This beurocratic bull is aggravating. Like on the previous vote, 64% was deemed not enough consensus. So if the proposal were worded "proposal to keep the page as Hercule" that 34% would have looked a little less like a win. The small handful claiming ownership of this article are welcome to it, as far as I'm concerned. Onikage725 17:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that I crossed out my own vote when I changed it[1]. WhisperToMe did nothing improper in that regard. -Anþony (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

My mistake. I jumped to conclusions instead of checking the edit history. See what happanes when one gets riled up? I fixed my statement above. Sorry about that. Onikage725 09:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I wasn't vote stacking. I was leaving notes for everyone who took part in the last vote. Both Pro- and Anti- Satan. I didn't inform Nemu or Whisper because they already knew about it.

It seems like everytime a vote is brought up Mr. Satan wins. And everytime something goes wrong and the result is scrapped. I say we move the page to Mr. Satan, and if someone wants to bring up a move to Hercule, we'll vote on it then.-- DesireCampbell 20:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys sure about the move? I'll make the move once yall give me the ok. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Eaxactly. I just want to make sure it is clear, since my name was slandered there too, that there was no "stacking." I literally went to the last move and opened up every user page who participated, except for those who had already voted. I then went on to drop the message to those whom I knew generally do participate in these votes or work on DB articles in general. How can we claim to know the consensus if those who would generally form that consensus can't be alerted that a poll is even taking place? Onikage725

If you had a problem with what WhisperToMe was doing on a previous move request, you should have mentioned it then. Regardless, Onikage725, you have mischaracterized your actions greatly. I specifically pointed to the portion of your notification statement that is problematic. It was not Care to weigh in? as you note, but rather since apparently winning the last one didn't "count"). You don't need to say Go vote for Option X to be attempting to be influencing !votes; that was enough. Additionally the two points by Nemu and DesireCampbell regarding the fact that some addressed the move request rather than the move itself rarely hold any weight (see Talk:Los Angeles, California, for example). -- tariqabjotu 20:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Again I ask you to point to me to the Wikipedia policy that that states that I am not allowed to express sarcasm when talking to another editor. I also pointed out that the vote I jokingly referred to wasn't even one I myself participated in. I was making a reference to its majority having been ignored. That's simple math, and I'm sorry if you or Whisper can't see the irony of it. But I was hardly "vote stacking." I have no problem with people voting opposite my opinion. I just wanted to make sure people who didn't vote (and those who did) last time got to this time around. Maintaining NPOV is a must for edits, but hardly for leaving a message on a user's talk page. It's called the freedom of speech- Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. Last I checked, that was international law, but I suppose it only counts so long as you or Whisper think people might be swayed to vote against them on an article about a comic book character. Onikage725 21:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Since when was that international law? Regardess, maintaining NPOV is a must when you decide to inform someone of a move request. I am beginning to repeat myself... if you don't agree with it, fine. Perhaps another admin will see from your point of view, unprotect the article, and move it based on your entreaties. -- tariqabjotu 21:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19. Furthermore, in the United States it is a Constitutional right protected by the First Amendment. But hey, I'm sorry my comment was construed the wrong way. It was an off the cuff remark, nothing more. It isn't like those users always vote the way I do, nor would a comment like that influence their stance on the matter. The debating here, maybe. A small sarcastic remark? I don't seriously think you believe that. It's just wierd...someone said before that the last vote was something like 64%. THis one 63? Yet it seems like it is more relevant to win on technicality. I'll go reword every single message I left if you'll re-open. It doesn't matter how people vote, just that as many people who care about these articles as possible get the chance to vote. Y'see that list I wrote of ppl Whisper contacted for a previous one? He was aiming for that, but didn't know everyone or have the time to contact everyone or what have you. I can evidnce that from a number of major contributors to DB articles who weren't notified, myself included. I didn't know the issue was being thrown down until BT2 made me fight #18 in two different damn scenarios and for whatever reason I came to the page. The last time I checked the page it was at Mr. Satan, though I suppose in retrospect this was a contested and quickly reverted move that I happened to catch before the RV. Onikage725 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, the tally here is 7 to 4... about 63% in favor of moving, and 37% against. There's no supermajority. I think we should wait until January 1, 2007. WhisperToMe 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sixty percent is usually enough for a move request to be considered successful. However, I see zero contact on the talk page of Mets501 as to why he decided to ignore the sixty percent threshold. -- tariqabjotu 21:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it's not a supermajority. There's still an opposition. And, this vote was made not long after the previous one failed anyway. However, what we will do now is contact the Wikiproject. WhisperToMe 22:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you can't. It's been move protected. Or something like that.--SUIT 20:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

He's an admin. I don't see why the page shouldn't be moved. The general consensus seems to be for the move. Out of the four opposers, only one gave a reason dealing with the actual article instead of the move, but that point has nothing to with it. Nemu 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if he's an admin he can. Please do. I would have if I could. This has gone on far too long. "Hercule" doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if there is any reason to use Hercule, someone can make a MR for Mr. Satan to Hercule - if that happens we'll take it from there. --DesireCampbell 20:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am an administrator. I have the ability to move and edit pages if they are under normal protection. However, it is also my responsbility to make sure I make the right move only once. While I do know that this latest round of (whatever you want to call this) may not be the clear and concise "consensus" that some strive for to solve Wikipedia debates. However, I feel that given how contensious this move request is, I think we should ask the entire anime wikiproject for their thoughts. Agreed? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's perfectly reasonable. -- tariqabjotu 21:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's fine too :) WhisperToMe 22:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, kids - I linked to this debate from the MoS Japan-style page. WhisperToMe 23:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well. This is rather interesting. We need some form of continuity. Half the DB pages refer to Funi names as alternate names. The other half consider them the actual names. I keep missing the votes, so I guess I'll be paying more attention to this talk page... If this page remains at Hercule, perhaps we should change Usagi Tsukino to Serena, Sakura Kinomoto to Sakura Avalon, and Doctor Tenma to Doctor Boynton. It's my opinion that if a work was released FIRST in another language, that the names of characters from the original language be the title of the articles. Do I make sense? I think so. Teh Shingen 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You make sense. You're saying the same thing that WP:Anime's guidelines say. This page shouldn't be named Hercule, that's been made clear. I'm just waiting a while until I force the issue again. There are more pressing issues at hand. If 'Hercule' was used on any other page, I'd put this on high priority, but as it is, the character is only referred to as 'Hercule' in the article title, the first paragraph, and the top of the infobox. Every other article refers to him as Mr. Satan, and Mister Satan redirects here. Naming the page 'Hercule' is against logic, standard practice, and official guidelines - but I'm not up for more bickering right now. I'll make a speedy move request eventually, and include the reasons for using Mister Satan, but not right now. --DesireCampbell 19:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Till then, let me rip up Shingen's argument -

1. Sakura Kinomoto is known as such in the English-language manga, so she doesn't count.

2. As explained earlier, the English-language versions of Sailor Moon are not out of print. WhisperToMe 21:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

3. "It's my opinion that if a work was released FIRST in another language, that the names of characters from the original language be the title of the articles. Do I make sense? I think so" You mean, Pokemon should be Pocket Monsters? WhisperToMe 21:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

1. And he's referred to as "Mr. Satan" in the current dub and official Japanese translations. 2. the edited dub, where he is called "Hercule" is, in fact, out of print; the only dub available on DVD is the new uncut dub (where he is "Mr. Satan") and the uncut dub airs on both the Funimation channel and cartoon network. And 3. Maybe. I don't know. There's less of a case for that as it's not called 'Pocket Monsters' in any English language release. That is very much unlike the matter at hand, where "Mr. Satan" is used in current official releases. --DesireCampbell 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that if you go out and find someone that isn't a Dragonball otaku, which is nearly everyone that casually watches the show but doesn't get obsessed, they've never heard of Mr Satan, regardless of whether that is the better, more accurate, official name in Japanese, or whatever. That simply doesn't matter to them. The common name is Hercule because that what common people know him as. Unfortunately. I'll almost buy your argument because, in this case, FUNi went ahead and called him Satan in the uncut anime which is also widely distributed. As opposed to Bardock, which is always Bardock, and it's just a localization difference. I'd offer to trade, but that would be wrong. ;) JRP 22:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be saying that we should intentionally publish incorrect information, ignore guidelines, ignore standard practices, and go against consensus, because the initial dubbing back in '98 is more common? You would rather disregard WP:MOS-JP and WP:Anime standard practices in order to, what? Make the page more accessible to the ignorant? If your concern is people will try to look for Hercule (Dragon Ball) and not find anything, we do have the ability to redirect pages - I'm not sure if you are aware of such a feature, but it's pretty handy. I've said it before and explained at length why - The article name should be Mister Satan. There is only one reason to use "Hercule" and I have already twarted that cleanly: the idea that the name is more common than "Satan" is unfounded and unverifiable. It is a name used only in Funimation's old edited dub - it is not used in the current Funimation dub, which airs on television and is released on DVD. --DesireCampbell 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You keep touting those guidelines yet do not even know what you're talking about. So, to that end, I'm going to show you why you need to read more carefully.

WP:MOS-JP: The English Wikipedia is an English language encyclopedia. An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese: use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jujutsu, shogi, instead of Fujisan, Tōkyō, jūjutsu, shōgi. Give the romanized Japanese form in the opening paragraph if it differs from the English form (see below).

See the bold part? In case it hasn't sunk in yet, Hercule is much more widely known than Mr. Satan.

WP:ANIME:Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. See: WP:NAME

WP:NAME: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.

This is covered in more in WP:COMMONNAME.

Next time you try to back up your arguments with those guidelines, I suggest you understand how they work. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's try this again:

• WP:MOS-JA "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"

Yes! Exactly! Use the common English form for all Japanese loan words! ミスター・サタン (Misutā Satan) is a loan word, specifically it's "Mister Satan". "Hercule" is neither a loan word, nor Japanese.

• WP:Anime#Sections "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."

Here is the section dealing specifically with character names. A character's "official romanji name" would be what the original production company writes it as (which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan"). If such is not available from the production company, then using a recent, popular English distribution company would be acceptable (which in this case would be "Mister or Mr. Satan" as well).

"If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."

If we had no translations for the Japanese script available (either from the production company or any English distribution company) then we would use a name translation (more commonly refered to as a "dub name"). So, if we went back in time to 1997 (and completely ignored Japan), we'd use "Hercule".

"Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."

Which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan".

• Why do you believe that "Hercule" is more common than "Mr. Satan"? On Wikipedia we assume good faith, which means we don't ask for verification needlessly, only when a point is contested. I am contesting the idea that "Hercule" is more common than "Mr. Satan" (or variants there of). The only thing I can think of would be a Google test, but that doesn't come out in "Hercule's" favour at all. [2]

Beyond that, I'd rather work this out through discussion. If you would like to also, I would be nothing but pleased. --DesireCampbell 06:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

From a canon standpoint, Mr. Satan. Per Toriyama, Mr. Satan is his stage name and his real name is unknown. This trumps Shonen Jump USA saying it's his real name, because direct statements by the author are a higher level of canon than a translation. The Uncut DVD dub calls him Mr. Satan. Naturally, the sub calls him Mr. Satan. Obviously the original work calls him Mr. Satan, as does the original anime adaptation. There is no argument that has been presented yet that convinces me that we should leave it at Hercule. Teh Shingen 12:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to clear a couple things up; neither Toriyama, not Toei, nor Shueisha have said anything about Mr. Satan's name. It's just the only name we hear from him. The American Jump gives notes about his real name being "Hercule" and "Mr. Satan" being a stage name - this cannot be taken at face value as it is clear that "Hercule" is derived from the French dub, and no mention of this name appears in the original text, script, or databooks. "Mr. Satan" being a stage name makes sense, but there's no data to back that up. --DesireCampbell 20:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't make sense that "Mr. Satan" is a stage name. Why? Because his daughter is named with a similar pun; Videl is an anagram of Devil. You would have trouble convincing me that "Videl" is her stage name. I'm willing to bet that the only reason her name wasn't changed too is because FUNimations censors are too dumb to get the joke. --Son Goharotto 16:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Move Request

Requested move

• Hercule (Dragon Ball) → Mister Satan —(Discuss)— "Mr. Satan" is the name used in the original Japanese script, is used in the Japanese subtitles on the Funimation dual language DVDs, and is used in the current Funimation English dub for both television and home release. "Mr. Satan" is used on all Dragon Ball articles, and as the official English romanji "Mr. Satan" falls under WP:Anime#Sections guidelines. "Hercule" originated in the French dub, derived from the Greek "Hercules", and is used only in the censored English dub and the censored manga. —DesireCampbell 20:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Oppose - Hercule is still more common. WhisperToMe 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Your average fan will not know who Mr. Satan is. I did not know who Mr. Satan was until trying to search Hercule. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per WP:NAME, "Hercule" is the common name of the character in the English-speaking world, the audience of the English-language wikipedia. "Mr. Satan" is the appropriate name for a redirect and we should explain carefully in the article about the distinction, but "Hercule" is the correct title. JRP 02:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support - I don't like voting, but my reasons are above, and below - DesireCampbell 08:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • You don't need to vote. Your vote is counted because you advanced the move. You should strike this one out so you are not counted twice. JRP 15:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support - per DesireCampbell. Even if we lose this survey vote, what matters is the character's romanized name and pun lineage. Remember that we don't use censored names for minors, meaning that even if you're a typical American fan of DB/DBZ/DBGT, or a parent, or even if little kids see the name "Mister Satan" and get scared or offended, you can't sue Wikipedia or do anything else about it since we have that policy. Besides, the VIZ manga uses "Mister Satan" too doesn't it? The DB fansubbed manga on my computer uses it, so I'm not sure about VIZ. ^{Power level (Dragon Ball)} 14:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, Hercule is way more common. Voretus^talk 15:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - This isn't about using common names, it's about using the translated names that were given to these characters! Maybe you didn't see the Bardock survey to see how that turned out. I believe you (and anyone else) would be convinced after viewing it that Hercule's name should be Mister Satan. If not, you shall see proof very soon... ^{Power level (Dragon Ball)} 15:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I've never really cared about DBZ, I just found this page while looking through requested moves. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) seems to apply here. Why would you say it doesn't? Voretus^talk 15:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - Did you even see the Bardock talk page like I told you to? It should convince you to change your vote. ^{Power level (Dragon Ball)} 16:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment, just looked at it and it reinforces my opinion that WP:NAME applies... I'm not going to bother anymore. Voretus^talk 16:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• WP:MOS-JA "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"

Use the common English form for all Japanese loan words: ミスター・サタン (Misutā Satan) is a loan word, specifically it's "Mister Satan". "Hercule" is neither a loan word, nor Japanese.

• WP:Anime#Sections "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."

A character's "official romanji name" would be what the original production company writes it as (which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan"). If such is not available from the production company, then using a recent, popular English distribution company would be acceptable (which in this case would be "Mister or Mr. Satan" as well).

"If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."

If we had no translations for the Japanese script available (either from the production company or any English distribution company) then we would use a name translation (more commonly refered to as a "dub name"). So, if we went back in time to 1997 (and completely ignored Japan), we'd use "Hercule".

"Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."

Which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan".

• "Hercule" is not more common than "Mr. Satan". The only proof I can think of is a Google test, which "Satan" handily wins. [3] a search for both "mr" and "satan" return

--DesireCampbell 20:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay... That method is flawed because it picks up non-English pages - This is what happens when English is specified.

http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&cr=&q=Hercule+%22Dragon+Ball%22+-wikipedia&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 = 37,000 for Hercule "Dragon Ball" -Wikipedia

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=%22Mr.+Satan%22+%22Dragon+Ball%22+-wikipedia&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en = 13,800 for "Mr. Satan" "Dragon Ball" -Wikipedia

WhisperToMe 23:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and try it with "Mister Satan" and the page gets a measly 19 hits WhisperToMe 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Op! That's very true. I hadn't thought of disregarding Wikipedia from the search, or excluding non-English web pages. Thank you for pointing that out. Should we exclude "old" web pages as well? How about this?

"Mr. Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

11,200 [4]

"Mister Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

79 [5]

"Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

103,000 [6]

"Hercule" without reference to "satan", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

41,200 [7]

So, Hercule does seem more common. But, these searches intrigue me as well. [8] a search for "mr" and "satan" (outside of en.wikipedia.org, not including "hercule") gets almost 50,000 pages. Thoughts?--DesireCampbell 08:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

For those that continuously tout WP:NAME, perhaps you would like to read this exert:

"If you wish to propose a new naming convention, do so on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions, and also explain the proposal at Requests for comment and the Village Pump, as well as at any related pages. Once a strong consensus has formed, it can be adopted as a naming convention and listed below."

And below that we see: Japanese: See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)

Which tells us:

• "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"

I contest the use of WP:NAME over a more specific guideline dealing with the topic. It seems strange that one would ignore these specific guidelines. --DesireCampbell 08:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Policy trumps guideline. Get that straight. Furthermore, you're misusing loan word. Learn what it means first. Mr. Satan is not some adapted English word, it's a character name. You want WP:MOS-JP#Names which states to use the English trade name, which is Hercule. Don't quote the first section of the guideline again, because it does not apply to this situation. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

If policy contests guidelines, policy > guidelines, as Someguy said. --Deskana talk 16:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)