Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Userspace policy proposal

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by IMeowbot (talk | contribs) at 04:19, 28 April 2005 (→3RR own userspace). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

By tradition, Wikipedia shows considerable leniency towards pages in userspace. However, it is unclear whether this means that literally anything is allowed, or that existing policy should still apply in some form. The issue has recently come up in a variety of discussions, such as on the admin's noticeboard and votes for deletion. Many people mention they are unsure what to do with it. Hence, this proposal.

Basically, there is a conflict between the existence of policies that claim to apply to userspace, and the reality that these policies are not presently enforced. Logically, then, we should either assert that the policies do apply and can be enforced iff extreme cases make it necessary, OR we should amend the policies stating that they do not apply in userspace.

Particularly relevant policies

  1. WP:UP#Ownership and editing of pages in the user space "Community policies, including Wikipedia:No personal attacks, apply to your user space just as they do elsewhere."
  2. WP:WIN#Wikipedia is not an experiment in anarchy "Wikipedia is free and open, but restricts both freedom and openness where they interfere with the purpose of creating an encyclopedia."

This should not be taken as a witch hunt, nor is it a call for massive purges of user space. It is merely a fall-back so that if and when a debate again arises over the appropriateness of a certain page in userspace, people will know where the consensus lies, and can act accordingly.

If you have a good idea for a variant proposal, or know of a general controversy in user space not listed here, please add it.



Deleted material

Sometimes, if a page is deleted (via VfD or related processes), a user who wants to save the page moves it into userspace. This is unrelated to 'userfy' where a page about the user in person gets moved. Arguably, one could instead keep a copy on one's personal hard drive.

Applicable policies:

  1. WP:UP#Removal "Your user subpage may be deleted, following a listing on wikipedia:votes for deletion, subject to deletion policy. Please do not recreate content deleted in this way: doing so is grounds for immediate re-deletion"
  2. WP:CSD#General "4.Reposted content that was deleted according to Wikipedia deletion policy." (is a criterion for speedy deletion)
  3. WP:WIN#Wikipedia is not a free host or webspace provider "Please upload only files that are used (or will be used) in encyclopedia articles; anything else will be deleted."
  4. WP:VFU#Purpose of this page "This page exists for (...) People who feel that an article was wrongly deleted"
  5. WP:POINT#State your point; don't prove it experimentally "discussion rather than unilateral action is the preferred means of changing policies"

Proposal 1-A: a deleted page that is kept in userspace should not be linked to from the main namespace.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:28, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Mgm|(talk) 12:58, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Thryduulf 16:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) but links from talk: should not be absolutely prohibited.
  4. Assuming talk is allowed SPUI (talk) 17:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. SchmuckyTheCat 17:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) and agree with comments: talk pages are ok. as well as stating this policy is redundant, but some users are that dense, so spell it out.
  6. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  7. Neo 23:02, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  8. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) And agreed with the first comment below.
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. This entire set of proposals constitutes massive instruction creep. Let's use common sense instead of applying legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. This already follows fairly obviously from WP:ASR --iMb~Meow 03:03, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Wikipedia already has enough legalism; all of this can be replaced by the obvious guideline that user space content isn't part of the encyclopedia and should not be linked to from the encyclopedia. Kelly Martin 03:26, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
    • We shouldn't be linking to the user space from mainspace for any reason, so the proposal is redundant.
Agreed. Mgm|(talk) 12:58, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • links from the talk: namespace should be allowed if there is a good reason. Thryduulf 16:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alternate to Proposal 1-A

Proposal 1-A-i: No page kept in userspace should be linked to from the main namespace.

  • Support
  1. TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 12:14, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Mgm|(talk) 12:58, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Thryduulf 16:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) iff this does not inlcude the talk: namespace (see comment).
  4. Assuming talk is allowed SPUI (talk) 17:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. As long as the "main" namespace is referring to article space but not article talk space. --Carnildo 18:55, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. As long as talk is allowed. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:44, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  7. Neo 23:02, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  8. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:13, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) Ditto TenOfAllTrades below.
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. This entire set of proposals constitutes massive m:instruction creep. Let's use common sense instead of applying legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. This already follows fairly obviously from WP:ASR --iMb~Meow 03:03, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Wikipedia already has enough legalism; all of this can be replaced by the obvious guideline that user space content isn't part of the encyclopedia and should not be linked to from the encyclopedia. Kelly Martin 03:25, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
    • Per the comment on 1-A, there's no reason to link any user page from the main namespace. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 12:14, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • To be complete-ist about it - if a user page does ever get linked from the main namespace it is in the "external links" style e.g. Jimbo's article might link to Jimbo's user page as an external link. Pcb21| Pete 16:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Because proposed reworkings of articles are often found in userspace (e.g. user:Thryduulf/Geonamesongs) this policy should not apply to the talk: namespace. Thryduulf 16:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion

Proposal 1-B: a deleted page that is kept in userspace qualifies for speedy deletion, as recreation of earlier deleted material.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:29, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC): On the assumption that 1-A is passed.
  2. Pcb21| Pete 11:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Mgm|(talk) 12:59, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  4. SPUI (talk) 13:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. JYolkowski // talk 16:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) as per MacGyverMagic's comment below.
  6. SchmuckyTheCat 17:50, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Unnecessary if the first two proposals are clear.
  7. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  8. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  9. Seth Ilys 02:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  10. What is allowed in article and user space differ too much for this to make any sense. --iMb~Meow 03:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  11. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:27, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • It should be possible to keep an article in a personal sandbox for improvement and reposting in some cases. Mgm|(talk) 12:59, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • It should depend on the reasons for deletion. For example: articles which are deleted because they are overtly racist in content should qualify for speedy deletion if they are recreated in user space. Rje 18:09, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion (2)

Proposal 1-B2: a speedy deleted page that is kept in userspace qualifies for speedy deletion, as recreation of earlier deleted material, but only if appropriate policy has been cited by the deleting administrator. Otherwise it should go through VFD.

  • Support
  1. Mgm|(talk) 13:04, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Rje 18:11, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. SPUI (talk) 13:51, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 14:38, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Thryduulf 16:42, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. SchmuckyTheCat 17:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Too broad. User space articles need to be disruptive, IMHO, to be deleted.
  5. Inter\Echo 19:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. Too broad - Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  7. Oppose. This entire set of proposals constitutes massive m:instruction creep. Let's use common sense instead of applying legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  8. What is allowed in article and user space differ too much for this to make any sense.

--iMb~Meow 03:06, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  1. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:28, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • I think this proposal may be a bit broad. Scratch pages, article fragments, foreign language articles that the user intends to translate, test pages, a little harmless nonsense...all meet the Criteria for Speedy Deletion but aren't necessarily things that should be (or need to be) speedied from user space. The recreation of speedied articles in User space—though sometimes bad form—isn't always acutely harmful. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 14:38, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Good point. But is there a way of preventing (or dealing with) the sometimes 'bad form' and occasional 'acute harmfulness'? Radiant_* 14:41, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Pages in a the userspace in and of themselves aren't a problem (after all a user could keep such material off-site or off-line if they wanted and there is nothing we could do). It is when those pages are referenced and used elsewhere (on more mainstream pages, usually in the Wikipedia: namespace) in a distruptive way that we have a problem. I wonder if existing "don't be a dick" rules should apply to users in these cases. Pcb21| Pete 16:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion (3)

Proposal 1-B3:

  • a. A page in userspace that was previously deleted after a VfD consensus is a criterion for speedy deletion unless the user explicitly noted their intention to keep a copy in their userspace and a majority of those participating in the VfD do not object.
  • b. Any page in userspace that was previously deleted for being a personal attack is a criterion for speedy deletion.
  • c. Any page in userspace that was previously deleted but is not a speedy deletion criterion under a. or b. must go through VfD to be deleted again.
  • Support
  1. Thryduulf 16:42, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Strong oppose, at least part A --SPUI (talk) 17:30, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Still somewhat oppose, see my own proposal below. JYolkowski // talk 19:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. m:Instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:12, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. part a is fatally flawed, while b and c are redundant with what is already done. --iMb~Meow 03:09, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:29, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
    • This is an attempt to comments about 1-B2. Thryduulf 16:42, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion (4)

Proposal 1-B4:

  • a. A page in userspace that is a recreation of deleted content from another namespace is a CSD if the content was previously deleted in a manner that demonstrates that it is inappropriate in any namespace. Specifically:
    • i. A CSD that applies to any namespace (except for "Reposted content that was deleted according to Wikipedia:Deletion policy")
    • ii. A copyvio
    • iii. A page that was previously deleted from the user namespace.
  • b. If a page in userspace is a recreation of deleted content from another namespace, any user may add {{userspace-improve}} [template wording to be determined, but something along the lines of "This page has previously been deleted from another namespace and now resides in the user namespace for improvement or personal reference"] to the top of the page, or ask for it to be added. If the owning user removes or declines to add the tag, the page may be placed on VfD as "Inappropriate user page in stubborn or extreme circumstances".
  • c. In order to delete a page in userspace that is a recreation of deleted content from another namespace but does not fall under either a. or b. above, it should be treated as an "Inappropriate user page" and handled as per the deletion policy.
  • Support
  1. JYolkowski // talk 19:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Neo 23:06, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. m:Instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism, per Space Corps directive 9012. -- Seth Ilys 02:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. If a user is being that much of a problem and won't voluntarily delete (or request deletion of) something that bad, this belongs in the dispute resolution process, not in deletion wars. --iMb~Meow 03:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. (Thus, a copyvio would be deletable because a DMCA shutdown would disrupt Wikipedia.) Kelly Martin 03:29, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • I still don't quite agree with 1-B3, so here's my new proposal. JYolkowski // talk 19:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Disruption of process

Proposal 1-C: keeping more than a couple of deleted pages in userspace is in effect a disruption of the deletion process, and should be actively discouraged. Repeat offense may be considered a form of vandalism.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:30, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Again, on the assumption that 1-A is passed.
  2. Pcb21| Pete 11:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. SPUI (talk) 13:50, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. m:Instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Again, deletion warring is a poor substitute for the existing dispute resolution process. Adding opportunities to participate is a Bad Idea. --iMb~Meow 03:18, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Keeping deleted pages in own's user space does not, in and of itself, disrupt Wikipedia; it only annoys certain control freaks. Keeping an extremely large amount of crap in one's user space, on the other hand, would be disrupting Wikipedia by consuming unnecessary resources, but the point at which this becomes a problem is probably much larger than a "couple of pages". Kelly Martin 03:29, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • I think that these pages qualify as "Inappropriate user pages in excessive and stubborn cases" and so should be taken to VFD. Continuing to recreate deleted pages in userspace after others have been deleted is a form of disruption, but I don't see how it could be considered vandalism. I also think the wording of this proposal is a bit strong. JYolkowski // talk 16:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Offensive pages

It is perfectly all right to voice your personal opinion on politics, sport, wikipolicy, or whatever else in your userspace. However, a small number of people take that a step further and add personal attacks to their user pages, or grossly offensive remarks to other users or groups of users, which is something that would not be condoned in mainspace.

For example, a public statement that 'user:foo is a moron'.

Applicable policies:

  1. WP:WIN#Wikipedia is not a battleground "Do not insult, harass or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement."
  2. WP:No personal attacks "Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Nobody likes abuse."
  3. WP:FAITH "When you disagree with someone, remember that they probably believe they are helping the project."
  4. WP:Civility#The problem "By hurting the community, the quality of articles is affected as well."
  5. Wikipedia:Avoiding common mistakes "(avoid) Arming for war. Wikipedia is a unique community of altruistic and consensus-oriented people. In other words, this isn't Usenet, and flaming is just not done."

Request to remove

Proposal 2-A: Users should remove strongly offensive content from their userspace when asked to do so.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:30, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Mgm|(talk) 13:06, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. SchmuckyTheCat 18:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) We don't need this kind of nannyism.
  2. Inter\Echo 19:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. The phrase "strongly offensive content" is too general and maybe POV. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:51, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Oppose. Avoid instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:17, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Redundant with Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. --iMb~Meow 03:20, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. There is already a rule against disrupting Wikipedia and a rule against personal attacks. Kelly Martin 03:30, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • We should watch out for people holding grudges asking for deletion. It should be dependant on the opinion of a substantial group of users. Mgm|(talk) 13:06, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • It should be explicitly restated that "strongly offensive content" means personal attacks and legal threats. I am concerned that while well intended, this policy may be used to harass editors. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 14:44, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • We don't need creeping nannyism. The talk page of an article is welcome to all and must be kept free of attacks. User space is not welcome to all. Good editors must use talk pages, but nothing forces any user to view the userspace of any other user. Any mature editor recognizes that words on a user page, that you have to seek out to view, aren't sticks and stones to break their bones. SchmuckyTheCat 18:26, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alternative version of proposal 2-A

Proposal 2-A: Users should remove personal attacks and legal threats from their userspace when asked to do so.

  • Support
  1. Thryduulf 16:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. SchmuckyTheCat 18:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Support, but only if the list of personal attacks is strictly limited to those deemed libelous. I should be able to keep my Nixon style pig-headed moron enemy list (not that I have one, but maybe I should).
  3. Inter\Echo 19:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. Avoid m:instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Redundant with Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks and Wikipedia:No legal threats. --iMb~Meow 03:21, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. There is already a rule against disrupting Wikipedia, a rule against legal threats, and a rule against personal attacks. Kelly Martin 03:31, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
    • This is following TenOfAllTrades' comments above. Thryduulf 16:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • They should. They should equally not be forced to remove them. Also I am concerned about misuse, since some people consider any criticism to be a personal attack: see [1], which calls [2] a "personal attack". Judge for yourself whether the latter is a personal attack or fair criticism. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Blocking

Proposal 2-B: A user who persists in keeping offensive content in userspace may be temporarily blocked on grounds of disruption, similar to a user who persists in posting offensive content anywhere else.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:30, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Mgm|(talk) 13:07, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Thryduulf 16:47, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Rje 18:15, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. SchmuckyTheCat 18:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Oppose because the definition of "offensive content" is too loose. I want to see disruption to the project before blocking users.
  2. SchmuckyTheCat says it well. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. Avoid m:instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Redundant with, and a potentially dangerous expansion of, Wikipedia:Blocking policy --iMb~Meow 03:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:32, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Regular deletion

Proposal 2-C: Strongly offensive pages in userspace may be listed on WP:VFD (per 'inappropriate user page') and deleted by consensus.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:31, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Thryduulf 16:50, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) if "by consensus" means "if there is a consensus to do so"
  3. JYolkowski // talk 01:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) Note that the first step, according to the deletion policy for "Inappropriate user page" is to discuss with the user and only list it on VfD if you can't reach agreement.
  • Oppose
  1. Rje 18:21, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC). Any user should be able to remove strongly offensive comments without going through VfD, the article should only go there if a dispute emerges between the editor and the creator.
  2. Inter\Echo 19:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) - VfD is enough of a mess already.
  3. Oppose. Avoid m:instruction creep; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:20, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Redundant with existing Wikipedia:Deletion policy --iMb~Meow 03:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. VfD is messed up badly enough as it is. Kelly Martin 03:32, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Refactoring

Proposal 2-D: Strongly offensive pages in userspace may be refactored by any editor (or, obviously, by the page owner), per Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:31, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Rje 18:25, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. This one's just asking for trouble. -- Seth Ilys 02:20, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Redundant (obviously) with Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. --iMb~Meow 03:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. We already have policy that allows for removing personal attacks that disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:32, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Refactor & protect

Proposal 2-E: A page in userspace that persistently has offensive content added with its owner's consent should be refactored by an admin and protected in non-offensive form.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. We have ways of dealing with vandals already without another rule. -- Seth Ilys 02:21, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Redundantly redundant in its redundancy, even. --iMb~Meow 03:30, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. This would prevent a user from controlling the content of their own user space. Protection should occur only if requested by the user, or when necessary to prevent vandalism. Kelly Martin 03:34, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • My vote on this pends the outcome of 2C. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:34, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Wikiprojects

A WP:Wikiproject "is a collection of pages devoted to the management of a specific family of information within Wikipedia." (note that something can be a wikiproject even if it isn't called one)

There have been a small number of wikiprojects kept in userspace, that have a particular POV, and that ignore or remove contributions from people not sharing that POV, on the opinion that the owner of the userspace decides what goes there. Some people feel that this causes a conflict between the open nature of a wikiproject, and the closed nature of userspace.

Applicable policies:

  1. Wikipedia:WikiProject Best practices#How to help "Encourage contributions from everyone, even those that are new to the subject."
  2. WP:NPOV "According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable"."
  3. WP:NPOV#introduction "we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute"
  4. WP:UP#Ownership and editing of pages in the user space "Other users may edit pages in your user space"
  5. WP:Wikiquette "Don't ignore questions."

Comments

  • Could we have some examples of what you mean please? Pcb21| Pete 11:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Certainly. I've put some links on the talk page here. Note that the point here is not to oppose certain Wikiprojects, the point is to oppose lengthy discussion about said Wikiprojects by forming a consensus now. Radiant_* 12:21, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Allow outsider edits

Proposal 3-A: if a wikiproject is in userspace, it must still allow good faith edits and comments from anyone. Ignoring or removing comments that you disagree with is a breach of civility; repeatedly removing other people's comments may be considered a form of vandalism.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:36, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) If the wording is changed to "may, in extreme cases, be considered a form of vandalism.
  2. Carnildo 20:39, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. Userspace is for rough drafts and working things out; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) -- Seth Ilys 02:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Owners of WikiProjects that are being operated out of userspace should be encouraged to move them to project space when the project reaches critical mass. Kelly Martin 03:34, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  3. A "real" wikiproject in the Wikipedia: space can be created if this is a problem. Disk space is cheap. --iMb~Meow 03:39, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • Comment

Move to the Wikipedia: namespace

Proposal 3-B: any wikiproject in userspace must, if any admin so requests, be moved to the Wikipedia: namespace.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:38, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Not at the request of a single admin. Suggest 3 as a minimum.
  2. JYolkowski // talk 17:20, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Things like this should be done with "the consensus of the Wikipedia community". If, for example, three admins agree, that might be a good gauge of whether there would be consensus, but, like everything else, we should strive for consensus. Having said that, why do we even need this proposal? If people feel that something should be moved to the Wikipedia: namespace (note that I've changed this to "the Wikipedia namespace" from "mainspace") or any other namespace, they can just do it, hopefully after discussion.
  3. Taco Deposit Agree with JYolkowski that it should be re-worded "the consensus of the Wikipedia community". Admins have no special authority.
  4. Oppose. Admins aren't particularly special; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Owners of WikiProjects that are being operated out of userspace should be encouraged to move them to project space when the project reaches critical mass. No editor, administrator or otherwise, has the authority to give orders to another editor. Kelly Martin 03:35, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  6. That idea of mandating that user pages be placed in common space is bizarre, no matter who decides. --iMb~Meow 03:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Must be NPOV

Proposal 3-C: any wikiproject, even in userspace, must be NPOV. If there is substantial reason to think that any particular project is not, this should be addressed on WP:RFC.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:40, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Even regular Wikiprojects have some POV element: they consider that the subject in question is worthy of inclusion, deserve wider coverage, and should be covered in ways more or less broadly outlined by the project. Suggest rewording to: should be open to multiple POVs.
  2. Oppose. Dudes, NPOV applies to articles. We should be able to speak candidly everywhere else; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:36, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  4. User and talk pages really need to allow non-neutral POV. These are places to work out what ultimately goes into article space, and they also serve as a sort of safety valve for the article space. --iMb~Meow 03:45, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Must be constructive

Proposal 3-D: any wikiproject, even in userspace, must be constructive towards improvement of Wikipedia. If there is substantial reason to think that any particular project is not, this should be addressed on WP:VFD.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:40, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Thryduulf 16:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. JYolkowski // talk 17:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC), but I'm not sure whether VFD is the proper forum for resolving such questions.
  4. Rje 18:45, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC). Although I agree that VfD is probably not the place to discuss such problems.
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. This will just drive disruptors further underground and make them harder to montior; apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Projects which are contrary to the improvement of Wikipedia will, in almost every conceivable case, be disruptive of Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:36, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  3. No way. Wikipedia implicitly endorses frivolity outside the article space (WP:FUN, WP:BJAODN etc.) and there is no call for user space being an exception. --iMb~Meow 03:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

ArbCom matter

Proposal 3-E: if a wikiproject refuses to become NPOV, or project members persist in removing or ignoring good faith contributions of others, or the nature of the project is detractive from Wikipedia, the WP:ArbCom should examine it and decide whether the project should continue.

  • Support
  1. JYolkowski // talk 17:26, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) as the last step in dispute resolution obviously.
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. Who decides what's productive and what's not? You want to burden the ArbCom with more stuff? Apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. The ArbCom can decide for itself what matters it wants to hear. Kelly Martin 03:37, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Useless. IRC, external message boards, etc. can all be used to the same end. Banning such projects from using Wikipedia for discussion is not going to prevent organized groups from editing in any way, shape or form. --iMb~Meow 03:57, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • Will vote if and when the NPOV question is resolved. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:41, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Templates

  1. Meta:Template "In MediaWiki, a template is a page which can be inserted into another page via a process called transclusion."

(note that something can be a template even if it isn't in template namespace)

While the vast majority of templates reside in template space, some users keep short pages in their userspace for quick transclusion elsewhere - usually on talk pages, or vote pages in the Wikipedia namespace. Some people feel that this usage of templates should be discouraged, because (unless it's subst'ed) it increases server load, and is a too-easy target for vandalism.

Applicable policies

  1. Wikipedia:Template namespace "In order to create a new custom message, simply create a page in the Template namespace"
  2. Wikipedia:Template namespace "Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace;"
  3. WP:UP#Ownership and editing of pages in the user space "Other users may edit pages in your user space"
  4. WP:Wikiquette "Don't ignore questions."

Allow outsider edits

Proposal 4-A: if a template is in userspace, it must still allow good faith edits and comments from anyone. Ignoring or removing comments that you disagree with is a breach of civility; repeatedly removing other people's edits can be considered a form of vandalism.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. User space is for the user, unless it violates a handful of policies about user space. The 3RR should not apply in one's own user space; repeatedly reverting someone else's user space should be seen as vandalism. --SPUI (talk) 13:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. I think the 3RR should still apply, but I agree that user space is primarily for the user, not for the general community to be making major edits that the "owner" disagrees with. JYolkowski // talk 17:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Rje 18:48, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC), unless the template is offensive.
  4. Carnildo 20:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. I'm not even sure what this proposl means, the wording is so convoluted. Apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  7. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. In addition, this proposal is incomprehensible. Kelly Martin 03:37, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  8. User space is user space. Sheesh. --iMb~Meow 03:59, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Move to mainspace

Proposal 4-B: any template in userspace must, if any admin so requests, be moved to template space.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. No, most of these are for personal use by their creators, there's no use in cluttering the main namespace with such templates. Mgm|(talk) 13:10, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. SPUI (talk) 17:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Carnildo 20:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Taco Deposit Admins have no special authority.
  6. Seth Ilys 02:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC). What makes admins so darn special?
  7. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. No editor, administrator or otherwise, has the authority to give orders to another editor. Kelly Martin 03:38, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  8. Again with forcing user pages to be moved into common space? No. --iMb~Meow 04:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Delete per TFD

Proposal 4-C: any template may be nominated for WP:TFD (iff with sufficient reason), regardless of which namespace it resides in.

  • Support
  1. Thryduulf 17:00, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Rje 18:51, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Carnildo 20:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Running a userspace template through VfD can be quite disruptive.
  • Oppose
  1. JYolkowski // talk 17:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Since user templates are mainly for the use of their owner, I feel they should fall under the "Inappropriate user page..." part of the deletion policy and put on VFD.
  2. Do we need another rule to prescribe what's common sense already? -- Seth Ilys 02:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:38, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  4. So if I don't like any user page I can say it's a template (since any user page can be used as a template) and toss it up onto TfD? What a terrible idea! --iMb~Meow 04:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
    • This should state that this applies to pages that are not in the template: namespace only if they are normally used as a template by transclusion or substitution. Thryduulf 17:00, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Subst'ing

Proposal 4-D: personal templates used for discussion or voting must always be subst'ed, and may be changed to a subst by any editor if not already so.

  • Support
  1. JYolkowski // talk 17:33, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Can you give a good reason why we need a rule for this? -- Seth Ilys 02:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. No good reason for this rule exists. It can be argued that a user who uses templates in such a manner may be precluded from altering those templates in such a manner that would be disruptive of Wikipedia, but the proposed rule goes beyond that. Kelly Martin 03:39, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Far too expansive to be good or practical, as worded. --iMb~Meow 04:08, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Voting

Propsal 4-E: personal templates, with the exception of custom signatures, must not be used on voting pages. Any votes cast by template do not count and may be struck through by any editor. Anyone striking out a vote in this manner must make a signed comment stating why they have struck through the vote.

  • Support
  1. Thryduulf 17:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Carnildo 20:43, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) I don't think this goes far enough, though. Template signatures are evil and should not be used on voting pages, or anywhere else.
  3. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Apply common sense over legalism. -- Seth Ilys 02:28, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Template signatures disrupt Wikipedia. Creating a technical reason for striking out a vote puts form over function and defeats the purpose of votes on Wikipedia, which is to build consensus. Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy; Wikipedia is not an experiment in bureaucracy. Kelly Martin 03:40, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  3. Nice sentiment, terrible approach. In this poll alone, we have many voltes that consist of ~~~~ and no supporting comments. How are these any more meaningful than template votes? --iMb~Meow 04:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Three Revert Rule

Edit wars occasionally occur anywhere, including in user space. There has been some debate recently about reverting userspace, in particular whether it should be limited as per the Three Revert Rule.

3RR other userspace

Proposal 5-A: The three revert rule applies to reverting other people's userspace.

  • Support
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:42, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  2. SPUI (talk) 13:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Thryduulf 17:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Any user who repeatedly reverts another user's user space is either disrupting Wikipedia or reverting vandalism. One is already prohibited; the other is general maintenance. Kelly Martin 03:41, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  2. Redundant with WP:3RR --iMb~Meow 04:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

3RR own userspace

Proposal 5-B: The three revert rule applies to reverting your own userspace.

  • Support
  1. This is a 3RR violation, but the admin investigating the violation should take into account the fact that this is one's own namespace. JYolkowski // talk 17:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) More or less implacably. If the earlier policies are passed, I see no need for this.
  2. SPUI (talk) 17:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. No way. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  4. Dude, it's your own userpage. Can't we use some common sense? -- Seth Ilys 02:29, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. This rule would prevent a user from exercising control over their own userspace. Kelly Martin 03:42, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  6. Redundant with WP:3RR --iMb~Meow 04:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment

Adminship

Certain people without a userpage have recently been nominated for adminship. Some people feel that an admin should use the user page to present a face to the community, and thus oppose a candidate who does not.

Applicable policies:

  1. WP:UP#What can I have on my user page "A good start is to add a little information about yourself, possibly including contact information"
  2. WP:RFA#Rules "Administrators (...) are held to higher standards, because they are perceived by many, particularly new, users as the official face of Wikipedia."

Nominations

Proposal 6-A: having a meaningful userpage is a prerequisite to being nominated for adminship.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Weakly.
  2. Pcb21| Pete 11:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC). Petty instruction creep.
  3. Radiant_* 12:22, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  4. Mgm|(talk) 13:13, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Edits and communications of admins are more important to determine their worth.
  5. SPUI (talk) 13:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  6. Phils 17:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  7. JYolkowski // talk 17:36, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC). I wouldn't support anyone who didn't, but I don't think we need instruction creep here.
  8. Rje 18:53, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  9. Carnildo 21:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) Instruction creep.
  10. Zzyzx11 | Talk 23:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  11. Bishonen | talk 02:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) Classic instruction creep, please see comment below.
  12. Seth Ilys 02:30, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC). Common sense, instruction creep. You know the drill.
  13. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. An editor who wishes to become an admin should conduct herself appropriately, but no rule is required to tell an administrator this. Nor should the community be arbitrarily restricted in who it decides to elevate to administrator status. Kelly Martin 03:43, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)


  • Comment

What would we need a policy or a prerequisite for? Anybody who thinks the userpage is essential is obviously going to vote object to the RAF of someone without a userpage. Thus a de facto rule will operate and also be responsive to community opinion. It'll change if and when that opinion changes, smoothly and in timely fashion, without any need for the fuss and mess of changing official policy. Isn't that just fine? --Bishonen | talk 02:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Existing admins

Proposal 6-B: all admins should ensure they have a meaningful userpage.

  • Support
  • Oppose
  1. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:44, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Ditto.
  2. Pcb21| Pete 11:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC). Petty instruction creep.
  3. Mgm|(talk) 13:14, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC) Admin's actions in community should be more important.
  4. SPUI (talk) 17:22, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  5. Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 18:08, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC). It would be impossible to define "meaningful". Plus, I don't see the benefit of this policy.
  6. Rje 18:54, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  7. Zzyzx11 | Talk 23:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  8. Meaningful to whom? For what? Who decides? What haircut are admins required to have? -- Seth Ilys 02:31, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  9. Bishonen | talk 02:35, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC). It would be impossible not only to define "meaningful", per Ezhiki above, but also to define "should". (Not completely happy about "ensure" either, come to think of it.)
  10. Oppose. User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. The only special obligation of the administrator is not to abuse their administrative abilities so as to disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:43, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • The first so-called policy adduced here and in 6-A is no more than a mild suggestion. Filiocht | Blarneyman 10:45, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Copyrights

Copyright violations in userspace are equally inappropriate as copyright violations in the main name space.

Applicable policies

  1. Wikipedia:Copyright problems

Proposal 7-A: Copyright violations in userspace are to be treated through the existing copyright problem mechanism: Wikipedia:Copyright problems

  • Support
  1. Thryduulf 17:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. SPUI (talk) 17:23, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  3. Rje 18:55, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
  4. Zzyzx11 | Talk 22:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose
  • Comment
    • I suspect this is just making explicit what has been hapening all along, but I feel it is important to make it clear that a copyright violation in userspace is still a copyright violation. Thryduulf 17:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • A copyvio is a copyvio is a copyvio, no matter where. This already *is* a rule, we don't need to add it again. -- Seth Ilys 02:32, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • User space can have anything the user wants to put in it as long as it doesn't disrupt Wikipedia. Copyvios disrupt Wikipedia. Kelly Martin 03:44, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Userspace_policy_proposal&oldid=12916138"