Talk:Creationism/Archive 6

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From a Biblecentric POV, Creationism is based on the Bible

<<Creationism is the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.>>

Those statements follow the definitions in several very Biblecentric dictionaries. To say that the "belief that God created the universe" is based on Genesis is one interesting POV. But that Biblecentric POV is as ridiculous as saying that "law" is based on the Ten Commandments. Some creationism is based on the Bible. And some is not--according to the various scholars that spend much of their time with such matters.

In any case, we should not be deciding one POV versus another. We should record the varieties of POVs and the way that they have evolved in history--and ascribe the various POVs to the generous men who invented those different POVs. Rednblu 01:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

According to Webster's New World Dictionary:

crea*tion*ism n. Theol. 1. the doctrine that God creates a new soul for every human being born: opposed to TRANSDUCIANISM 2. the doctrine that ascribes the origin of matter, species, etc. to acts of creation by God

creation science a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology

-- NetEsq 04:25, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes. Exactly--just for starters. I don't have my OED right here. But the Catholic Church has used those two definitions for "creationism" since before the 1700s. And around 1860, in responding to Darwin, some theologians invented a third definition for creationism which was opposed to Darwinian "transformism;" in the new third definition for creationism, certain Church fathers asserted that God created each species by his own "hand." [1] Darwinian "transformism" was interpreted by the Church fathers as theorizing that the chimpanzees speciated into humans spontaneously by the mere steady influence of God's natural loving laws. We could make a good NPOV Creationism page! But it is like the Inquisition; we have to do it by stealth of night--and in secret right-to-left writing. How about we just append a Creationism section to Theology? The deleted don't read the Theology page. I think I just **got** your suggestion. Good night! Rednblu 05:17, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Luckily my university has an institutional subscription to OED online. Here it is:

Creationism A system or theory of creation: spec. a. The theory that God immediately creates a soul for every human being born (opposed to traducianism); b. The theory which attributes the origin of matter, the different species of animals and plants, etc., to `special creation' (opposed to evolutionism).

-- Miguel

No "Church father" could possibly have had an opinion about Darwinism, as they had all been dead for centuries before Darwin was born. Get a grip. -- Someone else 05:41, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? I can see two Church fathers right outside my window and I assure that they are very much alive right here in the Twenty First Century and probably beyond. Rednblu 06:39, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Quite certain. "Church Father" is not synonymous with "priest". -- Someone else 07:14, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the term Church father refers to someone who is generally accepted as an authority on the teachings and practices of the Christian church. In other words, while there may in fact be Church fathers alive today, the term Church father is generally used to refer to men and women who have been dead for quite some time, such as Saint Augustine. -- NetEsq 07:09, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So nobody will let me call the padres who in 1860 or thereabouts created the doctrinal distinction that the Church followed therafter some "church fathers"? Ok. Let's call them Church padres? Rednblu 07:38, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let's Stop Bickering

Bickering -> Wikipedia:Community case RK

"Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,?with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (1012) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. He also reported on his extensive investigations into genetic data on hemoglobin (red blood cells). " [2]

So I have a question. Should Murray Eden's argument even appear on a NPOV Creationism page? That is, is Murray Eden's argument germane to Creationism? Rednblu 21:20, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These mathematical calculations have been proven wrong. The Talk.Origins FAQ has an essay entitled Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations which explains the error:

Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors:

1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.

2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.

3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.

4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.

5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.

I will try and walk people through these various errors, and show why it is not possible to do a "probability of abiogenesis" calculation in any meaningful way....(rest of essay on the following webpage)

Read the rest of this essay here

Isn't "public schools" a bit ambiguitous in UK/English ? Ericd 23:36, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Proposed disambiguation notice

I suggest replacing the first paragraph of the article with a disambiguation notice based on the Webster's 10th edition and OED definitions above, along the lines of:

Creationism refers to a belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:

- the belief that the human soul is created by a divine agency (opposed to traducianism); and
- the belief attributing the origin of matter, life, and the various living species to special creation by a divine agency (opposed among others to Darwinism).

This article develops the second meaning, for the first see creationism (theology).

I use divine agency to avoid the culturally biased term God. By the way, the article creationism (theology) should not redirect here, the previous content should be restored, and a similar dismbiguation notice added. Any comments? -- Miguel

Thanks, Miguel. I think we're getting on the right track now. Eloquence, Paul, RK, and (okay, let's include "victim" :) NetEsq -- what d'yall think? --Uncle Ed 21:51, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, Miguel. As I stated previously, NPOV disputes can most effectively be resolved by the passage of time and (more importantly) through the involvement of more Wikipedians, such as yourself. Please note that I am parroting this verbage from another Wikipedian who goes by the alias Eclecticology. It is a mantra I have come to value highly.

The course of action that you are proposing will put us more or less where we were a few weeks ago, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ideally, the present article would discuss all flavors of creationism, including those flavors promoted by theologians who do not seek to impeach the scientific validity of the theory of evolution. If this is done properly, I believe that the need for an article entitled creation science will become self-apparent. -- NetEsq 22:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Good KRS 01:55, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, Miguel. We may be an unruly crew, but we will follow you if you let us stick to what people have actually said. And I would like to see a section for each POV--not my POV or the writers' POVs, but the POVs of published scholars and activists--that gives each POV a clear and concise summary. Then we could have a set of sections at the end that summarize the controversies of POVn versus POVm. Just ideas. Count me in. I like the divine agency substitution. Rednblu 00:57, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Follow me? No, no! -- Miguel

How to go about changing the page

However, if I might suggest, could we develop this very different kind of page somewhere else like in the UserSpace so that it would not have the appearance of Us winning against Them. At the end we could have something to compare with the current Creationism page and everybody could vote on their preference. Maybe? Rednblu 01:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I beg you pardon? Who is us and who is them? And which side am I supposed to be on? :-)

IMHO it is better to agree on a "reference version" that we can revert to if we later decide all our work just made the page worse. Say, at any point we may agree to revert to the last version before my proposed opening paragraph is implemented. This is better than an alternate page because the edit history of the attempt would be documented in the article's history. Hopefully this won't be necessary, though. -- Miguel Sat Aug 23 13:12 UTC 2003

--

<<:I beg your pardon? Who is us and who is them? And which side am I supposed to be on? :-)>>

Well, I am acknowledging that you received three thank yous from some people who have used some harsh words in denouncing what certain very smart and very eloquent people people have done in keeping the Creationism page locked into its current look, format, and content. In my opinion, all of us, whether for or against the current Creationism page have a goal of making the Creationism page better. I would say that you are on the side of making the Creationism page better.

<<IMHO it is better to agree on a "reference version" that we can revert to if we later decide all our work just made the page worse. Say, at any point we may agree to revert to the last version before my proposed opening paragraph is implemented. This is better than an alternate page because the edit history of the attempt would be documented in the article's history. Hopefully this won't be necessary, though.>>

I can see the advantages of agreeing on a "reference version"--now that you point them out. All of the UserTalk comments would be in one place automatically. How about this for a plan? We start with the agreement on a "reference version" as you suggested. And if an edit war starts, we then move the page development to somewhere else such as a UserSpace. Just an idea. Let's not give up on developing a better Creationism page just because an edit war starts over the Creationism page. I would hate to see so much intellectual promise go to waste just because of this genetic hunger to defend the territory that all of us men inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. ;)) Rednblu 15:29, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I decided to boldly go and update the pages as per my suggestion. Hopefully an edit war won't ensue.

The reference version to revert to should an edit war occur is 03:43, 2003 Aug 23 . . Robert Merkel.

I hope we can all agree to this.

-- Miguel Sat Aug 23 16:00 UTC 2003

One more general comment about the procedure. I suspect that, as the page is revised from top to bottom, inconsistencies or redundancies may arise. I suggest that allowing redundancy is good, and that material from further down in the page can be copied into the newly rewritten section, and changed in the section being rewritten if necessary. Inconsistencies requiring only minor modifications can be repaired immediately, but for major modifications I suggest discussing them here first. As the rewrite progresses, we will eventually get to everything. -- Miguel

How about let's work ideas for the Introduction here on the Talk page. Then when we have what we think is a good idea, one of us will integrate the idea we have developed here with the text in the current Introduction, making sure that the worthy comments from the past end up on some page here in Wikipedia. Any ideas? Rednblu 16:02, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have made an edit to the introduction to the page. Describing pre-scientific creationist beliefs as a "product of their era" seems insulting to modern-day creationists. Just because it's an old idea doesn't in itself make it wrong --Robert Merkel 07:39, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Creationism as a theological topic

With the reinstatement of the article at creationism (theology), I was able to recapitulate some public domain material there that should help flesh out the topic of creationism in the context of theology. I invite all interested parties to review and/or mercilessly edit the material that I have added to that article before I attempt to add more. -- NetEsq 20:58, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There's some redundancy with creation beliefs now. Could you fix that?—Eloquence 19:49, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Developing this page and related pages

I would suggest the following structure:

Creationism will be primarily used used to discuss the following:
- history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)
- arguments that creationists by that definition are using now, or have used, to make their cause that
  - evolution is flawed
  - creationism is a consistent and sufficient model to explain our origins
- responses to these arguments
Creation beliefs will be used to described detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins
Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.

Concerning the matter of non-Christian creationists in the anti-Darwin sense, I think these should not be excluded from the creationism article.

Concerning the question of whether the discussion of the evolution arguments, the arguments against or for creationism, or any other part of the current creationism page should be moved away, I propose the general rule that if any of these sections dominates the article and the maximum article size of 32K is exceeded, this section is briefly summarized, with a link to a more extensive discussion in a separate article.

Concerning the recently added disambiguation intro, I have no strong objections to it, but it may place too much emphasis on a specific Catholic doctrine that is of little relevance to the majority of our readers. Perhaps it would be better to highlight the page creation beliefs prominently in the intro and to have a less prominent disambiguation notice for creationism (soul) in the head of the page. Does this sound like a fair and reasonable proposal to the participants? —Eloquence 20:01, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. RK 02:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, think that arguments that evolution is flawed belong in the article Evolution, but arguments that Creationism is sufficient to explain origins belong here. Note that Creationists not only have issues with Darwinism, but with the Standard Model of Cosmology, Astrophysical theories on the origin of the Solar System and with Geological theories of the origin of the Earth. This needs to be mentioned on this page, but the specific critique of each of these theories belongs in the page on that theory. Similarly, the "responses to these arguments" have two parts: defence of the merits of evolution (belongs in evolution) and criticism of Creationism (belong here). Miguel

That would be a bad idea. The article on evolution is an article on science, and should only include scientific points for and against how evolution is understood. It can refer to the religious disputations and link to this article, of course, but that is the extent of it. The arguments made against evolution and physics by fundamentalist Christians do not belong in a science article! Fundamentalists (in Judaism as well) disagree with much of science, genetics, evolution, biology, astronomy, chemistry, etc. However, we shouldn't go around putting in Christian (and/or Jewish, Muslim) "rebuttals" to science in all of these articles, or even in one of them. Those are not science issues. These are purely religious issues. Otherwsie, we will have to rewrite almost every one our science articles to explain why Chrisitians, Muslims, etc. all disagee. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What I mean to say is that neither this page nor the avolution page are the proper place for the debate between creationism and evolution. I wonder whether wikipedia should even contain such a debate. The creationism and evolution pages should describe each paradigm and criticisms of it.

If by "religious rebuttals" you mean something like creationists dispute this theory on the basis that it contradicts scripture, I don't think it's out of place. Just like saying that modern geology is incolpatible with a 6000-year-old Earth. But of course, nothing more than a passing remark is appropriate.

Notice that some of the "arguments against evolution" in this article are disputing the validity of dating techniques, and the interpretation of fossils data and geological strata. In so far as those arguments are scientific, they belong in the appropriate science pages.

I don't really want to commit one way or the other. Let's wait until the editing of this page has progressed. -- Miguel

--

* Creationism will be primarily used to discuss the following: ** history of the anti-Darwinian creationist movement (as per the "origin of the universe/life/everything" definition of creationism)

I have no objection to Creationism being devoted entirely to the Creationism versus evolutionism debate--if that focus of the Creationism page resembled the reality of history and the reality of creationism today. But in my opinion, the Creationism versus evolutionism debate comprises less than half of what creationism is today. Furthermore the Creationism versus evolutionism debate comprised zero percent of what creationism was before 1850.

What are you talking about? What do you mean "less than half". In the USA, Australia and Europe, among English speakers the term "creationism" refers to the attempt to battle science based on a religious reading of the Biblical book of Genesis. You keep using a definition of the word "creationism" that no other English speakers use. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Accordingly, it seems to me that your proposal that the Creationism page be primarily used to discuss the Creationism versus evolutionism debate is as unfair and unreasonable as proposing that the Communism page be primarily used to discuss the Communism versus capitalism debate. That is, the Communism versus capitalism debate is less than half of what communism has ever been about. I spend the time to voice my opinion here because, in my opinion, there are many people here who, for different reasons, think that your proposal for the Creationism page is unfair and unreasonable. Since I think they are right, I spend the time to say that.

No, it is not unfair. You keep trying to convince everyone to rewrite the dictionary to make this article focus on your own pet topics. The funny thing is that no one is preventing you from writing on those topics, in the appropriate articles. You do have intellectual freedom, just not the authority to rewrite the dictionary. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

For all of the above reasons, I vote against the Creationism portion of your proposal.

<<* Creation beliefs will be used to describe detailed theological models that have been put forward by different religions to explain our origins.>>

I do not see why you think that theological models would be a significant portion of the Creation beliefs page. I can cite you to any number of anthropology scholars who would list at least five varieties of creation beliefs, only one of which involves theological models. After all, from a NPOV, the Big Bang theory, even if throughly documented as scientifically true, would still be a creation belief for anyone who thought the Big Bang theory is correct in describing what happened to create the current physical universe. However, in my opinion, there are not many Wikipedians who are expressing an objection to your proposal for the Creation beliefs page.

Thus, for all of the above reasons, though I think your proposal for the Creation beliefs is unfair and unreasonable, I will abstain from voting against your proposal for the Creation beliefs page at this time. In my opinion, that is what the Creation beliefs page is right now.

<<* Creationism (theology) or perhaps, better, Creationism (soul), will be used to develop the doctrine concerning the origin of the soul. If we use Creationism (soul), we can redirect Creationism (theology) to Creation beliefs.>>

In my opinion, creationism is all theology. The soul part of creationism is a minor part of the theology of creationism. So, at least, the Creationism (theology) page should describe that part of creationism that has nothing to do with the Creationism versus evolutionism debate. For example, at least, the Creationism (theology) page should describe Plato's Timeaus theory that the Demiurge created the universe from the eternal archetype of the Good--which Platonic theory certainly has nothing to do with the Creationism versus evolutionism debate. And, in my opinion, there are many, many Wikipedians who think that your proposal for the Creationism (theology) page is unfair and unreasonable. Thus, for all of the above reasons, I vote against your proposal for the Creationism (theology) page. Rednblu 02:23, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You keep referring to the "many Wikipedians" who support you, but I don't see them. RK 21:14, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's one of the oldest tricks in the rhetorical books. Or maybe Rednblu has just learned from Rush Limbaugh. ;-) What you are missing, Red, is that the definition of creationism simply does not include the particular beliefs of creationists. The page, if edited according to your ideas, would look more and more like creation beliefs, which is very removed from what the word creationism means. Even NetEsq has cited only one additional definition, namely that of creationism in the context of souls, which is now prominently linked in the article. Platonic theory is not a variant of creationism according to any definition, it is a particular creation belief and as such should be discussed in the article about creation beliefs. The reason you are met with such resistance is not that you want to "create a neutral article about creationism" as you claim, it is that you want to change the definition of it to match your own idiosyncracies. —Eloquence

On this particular confrontation between us, Elo, I refuse to respond to the inaccuracies in the above paragraph until you take out your rhetorical tricks in that paragraph to imply that the issue is "Red's" problem. Rednblu 17:04, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

23:08, 25 Aug 2003 . . Rei (Reverted: Jecar, the goal is to *remove* POV, not to add it.) My full apologies if I have done something wrong but I fail to see how the removal of a duplicated word could in any way be perceived as adding "POV". Jecar.

No, my apologies to you. I accidentally had clicked on the diff to RK's edit to his post on on Talk:Creationism instead of your edit to Creationism. My fault. It would, of course, explain why my revision did nothing. Sorry there for inadvertently slandering you! And of course, RK is free to use any sort of bias he wants on the talk page, I was just thinking that it happened on the article page because of my mis-click. Rei 01:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

On what page should the Creationism versus evolutionism debate go?

The article on evolution is an article on science, and should only include scientific points for and against how evolution is understood.

Perhaps an article on a religious belief should only include religious points for and against that belief? Arguments from scripture and such? There is the belief in that the world was created as described in Genesis. That's a religious belief. Then there is the purported science, that attempts (and fails, I believe) to give a scientific grounding to that religious belief.

I propose having one article on Creationism for the Genesis-based creation myth, and another article on creation science. The term "creation science" is well used (63,000 hits), and unambiguously refers to the purported science. Then we add in creationism (soul) for the Catholics, creation belief for a general overview of creation myths around the world.Martin 10:13, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Religious arguments for a literal interpretation can be included in the article as is. The kind of arguments that should be moved to creation beliefs are the ones that detail the creation story as given in the Bible. The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.—Eloquence 12:19, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

I understand that some proponents of the theory of evolution consider "creation science" to be misleading. Similarly, some proponents of Holocaust revisionism consider "Holocaust denial" to be misleading. These concerns should be taken into account, but they are not the whole story. However, given your objection I take back my specific suggestion with respect to titles. Martin 12:57, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is in the nature of ideas that the first people to describe them well generally get to pick what they are called. So while "creation science" may not be an excellent description of the set of views that are generally called "creation science," it is nonetheless what that set of views is most commonly called. What other, widely-used term would you consider for that body of belief which purports that the Genesis 1 account is (a) literally true, and (b) scientifically demonstrable, as opposed to that body of belief which holds that it is (a) (literally or otherwise) true, and (b) not a topic of scientific inquiry. User:Shimmin <<Attribution added by User:Rednblu following the PageHistory.>>

Its best to have a disambiguation page as for 'English'. I brought this issue for discussion in a general sense in the village pump- referring to cases such as calculus, Tajmahal, architecture etc., But the solution suggested- to qualify every meaning in a bracket- seemed to me inadequate. After this there was not much reaction, probably because I am a newbie:-)

Here the primary tussle is which meaning is more important than the other or is the 'first among equals'. This cannot be resolved by any discussion, each person[especially two] thinks his POV is correct. It is therefore best to have a very short creationsim disambiguation page which will redirect to creationism[creation science] and creationism [theology]---KRS 14:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why not have two sections which cite examples/ proof so that other participants who are not active but like to have a say in the final NPOV :-) get more knowledge on this. Some of this exists, but it can be organised like in a vote. Each one can cite their sources, so that the dubiousness of Internet- related info can be verified by everyone interestedKRS 14:08, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

An important point which seems to be missing in many such cases[ actually only one I know of till now-a small part of the tussle of New imperialism was due to this]is the etymology. All this debate can be resolved when while creating a page with a predominant meaning, one brings out at first its etymology. Then the redirect can go to the historical meaning from the etymology. Thus justice is done both the current meaning and the historical meaning KRS 14:16, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Proposal: The Creationism versus evolutionism debate should go on a new Creation science page

<<The term "creation science" is perceived as an oxymoron by many in the anti-creationist movement, so choosing it as a title would not be neutral.>>

That is a blatant illogical point-of-view. A neutral point of view might be: If term T is defined in two standard English dictionaries, then it would be neutral to choose the term T for the title of an article in Wikipedia. Rednblu 17:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The simple fact which you continue to ignore is that there is a much more neutral and acceptable term: creationism -- a term used by encyclopedias and dictionaries in the sense in which we use it. Your use of this term is idiosyncratic.—Eloquence 17:21, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

Idiosyncratic? Do you mean "peculiar to those who believe in creationism"? If so, then you are right. I am using the term as most creationists use the term creationism: "Creationism is the belief in creation by a divine agency."

If you want an example of how creationists use the term "creationism" to refer to the theology that the creationists think sinners have fought against since at least 250 B.C. then check this link. On the other hand, if you want to continue denying reality, then you may do that also. Unlike Martin, I have no interest in being nice to you or being diplomatic. So I will continue to tell you that you are wrong if I think that you are wrong. And I can trust you to respond in kind. Rednblu 17:51, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Now I understand why you want to rewrite the creationism article so badly -- you want it to be in direct contrast to the article atomism which you wrote, just like Bergman puts the two historical ideologies in contrast to one another. While this is an interesting philosophical perspective, it does not reflect mainstream usage of the term creationism as my citations have demonstrated. So please don't be surprised if you run into walls when you try to fit the article structure of Wikipedia into your personal philosophical model.—Eloquence 18:13, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

The above inaccurate paragraph contains too many rhetorical tricks of avoiding the issue by dissecting the messenger. Rednblu 18:32, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The case for having a creation science page separate from that of creationism is similar to the case for having a Libertarian Party separate from that of libertarianism. (Not a perfect analogy, but close...) Libertarian socialists in particular might even find the term "Libertarian party" both misleading and an oxymoron, but it is nonetheless the most commonly used term to describe that political organization. Shimmin 12:47, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Looking for consensus on the Introduction

While the debate rages above this header, let's try to get something positive out of it by working on the Introduction. It would be productive to focus the discussion on what this section should say. Here's the current version. -- Miguel

In the Western world, Creationism often refers to the belief, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis), that God created the universe and all life within it, especially mankind. In this restricted sense, creationism has its origin in the Hebrew Bible and classical Judaism, and was adopted early on in Christianity.

Using the term creationism in this sense is relatively recent, dating back to the late 1800s. The term was chosen to counter Charles Darwin's popular and revolutionary work, The Origin of Species, which presented an alternative and widely accepted explanation, evolution, for the origin of human life. For the previous 2000 years, "creationism" in its basic form had been the mainstream understanding, in both Judaism and Christianity, of how the Earth and mankind were created.

In the United States creationism often refers to an organized philosophy by Christian fundamentalists which they intend to use as the primary, or supplemental, curriculum for schools to teach.

I would personally subscribe to this introduction in its entirety, and I think so would Eloquence (because he wrote it?). It seems that NetEsq, Rednblu and RK have serious issues with it, and it would be great if they proposed specific additions, subtractions or modifications here. I can't quite figure out where Ed stands on this one (but that's a statement about me, not about him). I apologize if I missed anyone.

IMHO, we should strive to quickly agree on a final form for this introduction. The point is that anything that, once we agree to an introduction, any remaining material which is inconsistent with the introduction will have to be moved to another page! (The introduction can be changed later if the need arises, of course) This will help focus the discussion of the relation of this page to other pages. -- Miguel

The problem with this introduction is that most "creationists" do not subscribe to "literal" interpretation of Genesis. Neither has "evolution" nor yet even "Darwinism" always been considered an explanatory alternative to "creationism". Augustine, for one example, defined "creation" as evolution (development orformation subsequent to the grant of mere existance). Aquinas rejected this idiosyncratic definition, but he did not reject development. Although special creation of species has always had variant forms, and is by far the most representative view of Christian believers, this is not necessarily tied to "literal interpretation". As the article says, "creationism is a spectrum" (and this intro appears to me to contradict this important observation). The whole debate is much older, and much more intricate and subtle (and consequently, too boring for those only casually interested) than can probably be represented in one article, let alone in one introduction. Mkmcconn 20:31, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Could you propose an alternative introduction instead of pointing out what's wrong with the current one? I understand what you're saying, I just don't know how to put it in the article. You may need to propose a change to the disambiguation notice, too! (see below)

From reading this and the creationism (theology) talk pages, it seems to me we have reached an impasse. One way out might be to find a better name for the anti-Darwinist biblical-literalist creationism movement which is mainly confined to the US and wants to take over the science curriculum (maybe this is a little too narrow, though) Do you advocate an article on special creation?

We need a good disambiguation page to help the casually interested reader find the article they want, and also so that everyone involved in this discussion can add content to a real page they are happy about instead of to the talk page of something they are unhappy about. So, the question is, creationism (what)?

It seems that Eloquence is responsible for a large part of the current content, so it would be important to know what he thinks a good alternative title for this page would be, if any. -- Miguel

I appreciate the frustration. I didn't mean to be critical; only, to advise against your suggested approach to the introduction, and to commend the approach currently taken, as being relatively better. My opinion has been that, it will work out best if we work on eliminating internal contradictions and redundancy, preferring those edits which integrate well in the existing structure. I think that the present structure has proven durable, for incorporating new material and expanding the scope, without further sacrifice of clarity. Mkmcconn 21:26, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let me just say that I am, and have always been, perfectly willing to strive for compromise concerning the structure of the article. I, NetEsq, Mkmcconn and others arrived at the present compromise a few weeks ago in mutual consensus. It is only then that Rednblu joined the debate and tried to alter the structure so he can create an article about creationism that philosophically matches the article on atomism he has written. Nobody else has had any complaints about the structure at this point.

Since then, Rednblu has been tirelessly campaigning against "evolutionist censors", worked on unnecessary page forks and wasted everyone's time. Even NetEsq's main complain, as I understand it, was simply that the original theological meaning of creationism concerning the origin of souls was not given proper attention. It is only Rednblu who wants to fundamentally restructure the relevant pages, not to adopt the pages to the modern and traditional meanings of the word creationism, but to make them reflect his personal philosophical interpretation thereof.

Rednblu has been entirely unwilling to work for compromise and insisted on his preferred structure so far, while everyone else in the debate has worked to achieve consensus. His major contribution to the debate is to try to create "factions" who attack each other. He is trying to seed the kind of mistrust and paranoia that he needs to establish his point of view.

At this point, I think the most reasonable course of action for all concerned parties would be to ignore Rednblu and to simply carry on improving both the structure and content of the relevant articles. Don't play his game.—Eloquence 21:08, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

I have to say I am getting tired of playing the game. Unless you are misrepresenting other people's opinions, all that is left is for Rednblu to give a specific proposal as to what the introduction should look like. -- Miguel

Personally, I think it's more important to fill in the details at places like Young Earth Creationism and panspermia. Also, rather easier... :) Martin 23:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

One question. Wouldn't it make more sense to define creationism at wiktionary:creationism? Is there a place on wiktionary for wikipedians to say "we're having a semantic dispute here - help!"? Martin 23:19, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think we all agree that creation beliefs is for religous dogma, with no rebuttals. (Those 'crazy religious people' believe some astonishing things, ain't it a hoot? one might say.)

An article on creationism might focus on the Christian (esp. Anglo-American) assertion that God created the world AND the living creatures AND people, in contradiction to the evolutionist view. Whether or not this needs rebuttal is still an open question at Wikipedia as of late August 2003.

I believe that creation science or scientific creationism is the school of thought which:

asserts that Creationism is true
claims that geology and biology PROVE that Creationism is true
wishes American public schools would give as much time to Creationism as to theories of Evolution, in science classes.

Summing up, I daresay that we contributors

have no problems with the creation beliefs article.
still are unsure how much rebuttal and so forth should go into the creationism article
might consider moving some of battle between creationists vs. evolutionists to creation science.

--Uncle Ed 13:55, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Specific proposal as to what the introduction should look like

I offer the following as an attempt to develop consensus on what the beginning and Introduction of the Creationism page might be.

I have cut out specific authors, such as [Author1]¸ and specific quotes, such as [Assertion1], to assist those who reject specific authors as being "creationist," for whatever reason. Fill in your own sources and quotes!

I suggest we edit this beginning and introduction between the container marks here on this TalkPage to minimize edit wars. Let's see what we have. Rednblu 21:04, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Specific proposal container Beginning

Creationism refers to a religious belief in creation by a divine agency, primarily:

the belief that the human soul is created by a divine agency - see creationism (theology)
the spectrum of beliefs attributing the origin of the universe, life, and humanity to creation by a divine agency.

This article discusses the second meaning.

For the various stories of how creation happened, see Creation beliefs.

For an exposition of the conflicts of creationism with science, see Creation science.

This article is specifically about the various creationism outlooks on theology and the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created them.

Introduction: The broad spectrum of creationism

Creationism, attributing the origin of the universe to creation by a divine agency, is at least as old as the writings of [Author1] in [YY1] BC and [Author2] in [YY2] BC. Creationist scholars differ widely in characterizing the role of the divine agency in the affairs of this earth. Some creationists, such as [Author3], assert that the divine agency hears their daily prayer and will intercede in daily events to make things turn out right. Other creationists, such as [Author4], assert that the divine agency created the universe many aeons ago and has not intervened in events since that initial creation.

There are creationist scholars that follow many different religious beliefs, including Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, [Religion1], Christianity, and many others. Some creationists, such as [Author5], are highly critical of all organized religions and make assertions like [Assertion1] and [Assertion2]. And across that broad spectrum of religious beliefs, creationists over the centuries have developed many different views of theology and of the duty that people owe to the divine agency that created the universe and created them at least by starting the forces that gave them birth.

Theologies and duties to a "watchmaker and absentee god"

Theologies and duties to an "angry god"

Theologies and duties to an "ever-forgiving god"

Specific proposal container End

While this all looks interesting for some kind of symposium on a "creator" somehow vaguely defined, it's really a meta-wikipedia discussion. It doesn't have much to do with "creationism" as that term is usually used, does it? Mkmcconn 21:25, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Exactly. Creationism, the view that a divine agency created the universe - this is your definition of creationism, Rednblu, and it is not the common definition of creationism in dictionaries and encyclopedias. Britannica, for example, calls creationism a "counterevolutionary, fundamentalist theory or doctrine that postulates that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing", and Columbia calls it the "belief in the biblical account of the creation of the world as described in Genesis, a characteristic especially of fundamentalist Protestantism (see fundamentalism)." Dictionary citations can be found in the archives or via onelook.com. As long as you refuse to acknowledge the mainstream definition of creationism and try to push your own agenda, you can't expect us to cooperate with you.—Eloquence 21:29, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

If someone wants to talk about nonchristian views on creation, I don't have a problem with that. That's why I proposed the definition I did (based on the OED, basically). There's nothing wrong with choosing the dictionary definition that is broadest, especially if it makes more people comfortable. It seemed at one point that everyone (including Rednblu) was ok with the disambiguation notice, but now he's proposing a fundamental change of focus that I disagree with. -- Miguel

First, when and why did special creation get dropped in favour of creation in the definition?

Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing.

Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.

IMHO, "Duties towards your favourite kind of god" are irrelevant to this article.

-- Miguel

I changed "special creation" to "creation", because:

It's not clear what it means - looks like jargon to me.
Dictionaries don't use that term, as far as I can tell.

hth. :) Martin

"Special creation" might be useful jargon, because it was often used in the 19th century by some evolutionary creationists, where they believed that a divine act of intervention could be inferred at specific places in the evolutionary chain. It is still used in this way to distinguish a creationist explanation at any particular point where a naturalistic explanation might be offered instead: as, for example, the special creation of the human soul, or the special creation of the first Man. Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Constructing an Introduction to Creationism

<<Second, Rednblu wants this article to discuss ethics (for lack of a better name), which I find amazing. >>

I assume you refer to the "theology and duty to . . . ." sections. That repeated phrase is merely a place holder suggesting some feature by which the encyclopedia page would classify the different creationisms in the broad spectrum. What would you suggest as the distinguishing feature of the creationisms within the broad spectrum?

<<Third, I don't see why the essence of the broad spectrum paragraph cannot be incorporated into the current introduction. However, Rednblu makes no attempt to salvage any of the current content.>>

The assumption with the above construction was that the creationism versus evolutionism debate would be disabiguated to the creation science page where all of the current content would be applicable essentially as is.

That is, if you take the OED definition seriously, then it seems to me that this page is not about creationism. Perhaps the current Creationism page is about the clash between creationism and evolutionism. Rednblu 01:05, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As Britannica correctly states, creationism is at its core a counterevolutionary movement. Now I am completely open to discussing non-Christian variants of that movement, but belief in divine creation as such is not the only defining feature of creationism.—Eloquence 01:58, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC)

Sense in which an intepretation is "Literal"

The current intro says, based on a literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible (Genesis). The word, "literal", has baggage that the article has difficulty sustaining from the start to the end. Mkmcconn \

Or, does it? I'm sorry to throw this twist in; on the other hand, there is ambiguity that I would like cleared up:

"strict adherence to the letter", "unimaginative" and "ordinary sense of the words" reading is important to some Creationists - they call this "literal interpretation".
"Creationists believe that the Bible teaches that God literally exists and is literally the cause of the existence of other things". Without regard to how imaginative their interpretation actually is, they understand the Bible to be reflective of historical fact, at least insofar as it describes God as the origin of things.

Which sense of "literal" is being chosen, 1, or 2? Mkmcconn 00:31, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)