Talk:Australia

Archived discussions:

• Talk:Australia (Archive 1), Talk:Australia/Archive 2, Talk:Australia/Archive 3, Talk:Australia/Archive 4

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Templates

For crying out loud, instead of continual reverts, could we discuss these blasted templates? There does seem to be a real issue with "template creep", and given that editors of other articles such as Canada have given them a speedy farewell, we might want to talk about them. Slac speak up! 23:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I support keeping the templates referring to Commonwealth realms and nations. If not here, then perhaps at Queen of Australia (realms) and Foreign relations of Australia (Commonwealth nations), but I'd like to leave them here, as sort of cross references. They're more relevant to the main Australia article than half the external links. The Continents template doesn't really belong here as this is a country article, not a continent article. --ScottDavis 05:26, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But I don't think we can create a separate Australia (Continent) article. We just need to expand the continental content, as it were. Slac speak up! 06:33, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Currently the Commonwealth template is on Foreign relations of Australia, which seems like a fair compromise. - SimonP 22:44, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

IPA notice

Does not the IPA notice in the Origin and history of the name section fragment the pronounciation paragraph? It does so in my browser. User:203.164.184.88 moved it here, but when I moved it lower again, to prevent the fragmentation, I was accussed of making a bad edit. I do think that the notice should precede the IPA langauge, but I have been unable to position it there without the fragmentation occuring. Could somebody perhaps fix it?--Cyberjunkie 05:05, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What the hell?

What happened to the page?!? *angry*

This should be a featured Article

I'm going to try an get this article up to featured status, please leave any suggestins here, and if you wrote sections of the article could you tell me where you got the information so I can compile a reference list. Thanks --nixie 01:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

The government section is a bit lacking.--Cyberjunkie 16:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I think its pretty good, it shouldn't really cover anything beyond the basic structure of the government, the recently featured South Africa article had the same breakdown. I have added more info on politics and governance to the politics and states sections. Two things that do need to go into the article are Foreign relations of Australia and the Australian Defence Force and I don't know where to add them, they don't really relate to the structure of the government and they aren't really political. Any ideas?--nixie 05:59, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Transportation and communication also need a mention, look at the roasting Portugal got recently--nixie 06:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• Moved the info on NZ to Immigration to Australia--nixie 06:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The Government section is good; I just don't like the dot point method. And I'm a bit confused with the Politics section. In most country articles, Politics is used to talk about government in general, whereas we have a separate government section. So if our Politics section is used to talk exclusively about Parliament, why then must Government only be an outline? Shouldn't it be more detailed?

In the Australian topics table, at the bottom of the page, foreign relations is included under history, but I don't think that's the right place to put it. Do you mean to write about it, or simply include a link to it as a Main article? Either way, there isn't really a corresponding section - the closest are Government and Politics.

If discussion of military is required for featured articles, a military section could be created, like in the South Africa article.

I don't know how deep we will be able to delve into transport for Australia, given it's more state-based (and in fact, state concern). I suppose we could have minor discussion on major infrastructure, like inter-state/trans-continental railways, national highways and capital city airports. Perhaps even some unique features like road-trains? Still, I doubt its necessity.

As for communication, I've never seen it written about before in a country article - not even in South Africa. That's something that could go into Economy possibly, but I don't think it needs a separate section. Actually, transport could also be included in economy.

It seems that people expect country articles to have to same layout as the CIA World Factbook, and I decidedly disagree - the factbook is hardly something to aspire to.

Anyways, thank you for the great work you've been doing. I'm sure the article will become a feature with your efforts. --Cyberjunkie 07:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

What do you think about the military section in France's article? I think something as simple as that could possibly be included. Actually, what do you think of the layout of the France article as a whole? Also, I have added information on Australia's maritime territory to Exclusive Economic Zone that could be included under geography, as in the France article.--Cyberjunkie 11:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I merged and pruned the government and politics sections, any opinions?--nixie 05:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

just make sure that any of the material you deleted from these sections is either already included in one of the "main articles" either Politics of Australia or Government of Australia as appropriate so that good material doesn't get lost. clarkk 02:20, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Could whoever said that the Queen is generally considered to be the head of state please find a source for this statement? This may have been true once, but as many Australians feel that the Governor-General is the head of state, a belief that the Queen is the head of state can hardly be considered general. Pete 22:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Not this, again :/--nixie 00:37, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

You don't mind if we have everything shipshape and sourced and accurate, surely? Pete 00:38, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Infobox

Are the statistics provided in the infobox in US dollars or Australian? Either way, they are incorrect. I'll fix it, but I just need to know what currency is used.--Cyberjunkie 16:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Not sure. This is an Australian article, so should be in AUD (can put in USD for comparison if neccessary). --Daveb 07:53, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Australia or its commonwealth

Wouldn't it be usefull to keep the continent/island and the political structure separate? The first is far more "eternal" than the last. Only plate tectonics can "destroy" the first and it has existed for how many millions of years? On the other hand the commonwealth exists apparently since 1 January 1901. Perhaps the best solution is to change the def in the intro and redistibute its contents under the correct heading, namely politics. -MarSch 14:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree entirely. Australia the country and Australia the continent are one in the same. The natural features of the continent are discussed within the diverging articles of ecology and geography. Most of the continent articles focus upon the polities situated within their bounds, and for Australia, the polity encompasses it in its entirety. The article as it presently exists, is most correct.--Cyberjunkie 15:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Bold main articles

I think bolding the links to main articles is really ugly, and unnecessary since the Main article:Blah is on a separate line to the blocks of text, and its not done on featured artciles, anyone mind if I reformat them?--nixie 04:38, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Whilst I don't think it makes them appear "ugly" (actually, I think the opposite), I don't mind if it's reverted. I changed it because that seemed the standard for a growing number of articles, including features.--Cyberjunkie 04:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

what about using {{main|Geography of Australia}}, that would keep them standardised? clarkk 06:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good --nixie 07:00, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Wording

Is it a duplication to say displacement and also ethnic cleansing? My understanding is that the policies of ethnic cleansing (a horrid euphemism) in Australia, with regards the the Indigenous peoples, were to do with displacement (with, some argue, the occassional incidence of genocide). How should that sentence be handled?--Cyberjunkie 05:35, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

A number of articles describe the Tasmanian situation as ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing covers forcable removal and genocide, and I think is appropriate. --nixie 05:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to this

mainly to infectious disease, forced migration, and government policies that by todays understanding constitute genocide--nixie 06:00, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not denying it, I just wanted it described objectively without duplication of terms. My point was whether "displacement" and "ethnic cleansing" were too similar. I think the rewording works nicely.--Cyberjunkie 07:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

"Most of the estimated 20.3 million Australians descend from 18th and 19th century immigrants....

... most from Britain] and Ireland to begin with, but from other sources in later years" in the Demographics section seems both inaccurate and blantantly contradictory. The 19th century was over in 1899 (and 1788 was only 12 years before the end of the 18th!) At the end of the 19th century, the "later years" of non-Anglo-Irish immigration had not yet begun, and the population was still well over 90% Anglo-Irish. Moreover, is it really true to say that "most" Australians are descended from immigrants who came to Australia before 1899?? My understanding is that even many of the Anglo-surnamed Australians can trace their heritage to British immigrants who came in waves after 1900 (not to mention the non-Anglos). I'm not Australian so I'm reluctant to change in case I'm missing something, but please respond or correct. It just seems wrong. Moncrief 05:42, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

You're right, not many Australias are related to the convicts. I changed the offending sentence to Most of the estimated 20.3 million Australians descend from 19th and 20th century immigrants, and I'll see what else I can do to improve the section--nixie 05:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Referencing

I'm using the Innote hidden reference template, refs are inline, but commented out, and then listed in the refernce list. If you've got references to add, plase do so in that format. Thanks. ALso I put the page on peer review today --nixie 09:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

Is the "Origin and history of the name" section close enough to an etymology for it to be titled so? It does show from where Australia derived, but also gives a brief history. If no body is opposed, I like to retitle the section Etymology - with any necessary changes. Thoughts?--Cyberjunkie 12:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The Etymology section was recently, and significantly expanded by Al-Andalus. In the revised section, it is claimed that Pedro Fernández de Quirós first discovered and named Australia. However, this claim is contradicted in the explorers own article. That article states that Quirós discovered the New Hebrides (Vanuatu), not Australia, but named an island he thought might be Terra Australis "La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo" (not La Australia as was written). The article also states that the claim that Quirós named and discovered Australia is essentially Catholic propaganda, pushed by some Australian Catholics in the 19^th Century.

I have asked Al-Andalus to provide his sources so that his changes may be substantiated. Even so, I do not expect that they are factual. It may well be that Flinders was influenced by Quirós's "La Austrialia", but so far, all sources state he named Australia - and let's not forget the influence of "Terra Australis" itself.

The following is the etymology before Al-Andalus changes:

The name Australia derives from Latin australis meaning southern, and dates back to 2nd century legends of an "unknown southern land" (that is terra australis incognita). The explorer Matthew Flinders named the land Terra Australis, which was later abbreviated to the current form. Previously, when the Dutch explored the area they named it Nova Hollandicus or New Holland.

Flinders later renamed the land Australia in a chart compiled in 1804 whilst he was held prisoner by the French in Mauritius. When he returned to England and published his works in 1814 he was forced to change the name to Terra Australis by the British Admiralty. Governor Macquarie of New South Wales became aware of Flinders' preference for the name Australia and used it in his dispatches to England. In 1824 the British Admiralty finally accepted that the continent should be known officially as Australia.

Perhaps some of Al-Andalus's changes might be incorporated within the orginal etymology. I will not seek to change the section before Al-Andulus himself or others respond.--Cyberjunkie 07:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

• The Pedro Fernández de Quirós article asserts that some writers (unnamed) say that he coined the word Australia, for the islands he thought would exist (Australia del Espiritu Santo). Flinders gave the name to Australia, whether or not he was influenced by Quirós is hard to say and probably doesn't need to be debated in this artilce, I think the text should be switched back.--nixie 08:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, will do. I would still like a response from Al-Andulus all the same.--Cyberjunkie 08:12, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Images

There are three images with unclear copyright information,

• The Govenor General, it's an offical photo released by his office, and released officailly for reproduction, I see no reason why this can't be tagged as PD
• The climate map, is listed as fair use, but I'd feel more comfortable if someone made a PD or GFDL version of this map
• Dame Joan, is a cropped version from [1] her record company, since the company logo has been cut off the fair use claim is weak and I'm going to list it was a copyvio.

Does anyone have a suggestion for an image that can replace Dame Joan? --nixie 04:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Infobox position

Would it be better for the infobox to start at the top of the article rather than down a page? MyNameIsNotBob 06:08, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Recent changes

I've done a bit of cutting and removing flowery text to shorten the article, I won't take offence if you think something should go back. I also moved the topics list to a template Template:Australian Topics (it was 2kb long). History, Politics and and Population and migration could still be shortened with a view to get to 40kb. --nixie 08:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

hi nixie, I think all of your trims/edits are fine, I would only ask that any text you trim be relocated to the relevant Main article (or other sub-article) so that good content isn't lost (or buried in the diff history). I have reclaimed a paragraph and moved into the History of Australia before 1901, for example. clarkk 11:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I had kind of assumed that the stuff from this article would already be in the longer articles. I'll be more careful--nixie 12:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

in a perfect world, editors would ensure that if they add to the summaries here that they would realise that those changes should be mirrored in the relevant Main article, unfortunately it is most often not so. clarkk 13:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)