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Talk:Adolf Hitler

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Talk:Adolf Hitler/1

Since World War II as such began in Europe, I don't see why we can't just say Hitler started World War II? The ongoing Sino-Japanese War was not considered a part of World War II until Japan attacked the United States and the United Kingdom in December of 1941. john 22:48, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

A number of Historians feel that World War II started in ~1933 (see the WWII article); furthermore, actions by Italy and Russia were also quite aggressive. In addition, Germany itself blamed the war on the Allies. I really don't think its fair to say that he single-handedly started the war; of course, if you have somebody you'd like to quote on this, feel free to use a quote to that effect. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I'd say the general consensus on the start of World War II proper is that it began on September 1, 1939, with the German invasion of Poland. I suppose one might argue for the British and French declarations of war two days later. But, as I said, the Sino-Japanese War, and even more so the invasion of Ethiopia or the Spanish Civil War, were, while related, not the same thing as World War II. Only in retrospect can they be considered to be a part of the same war. I'm not sure what actions by Russia prior to September 1939 could be seen as particularly aggressive (although their conduct in Spain was certainly odious). In any event, the article would not say that he was the instigator of World War II, but that he is widely seen as such, which is hardly controversial. john 22:56, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Why not be more accurate tho, and note that Germany had little to do with the Pacific. In any case, Amazon.com is selling ~600 books about "Adolph Hitler". Lirath Q. Pynnor

If we establish a precedent of saying what Hitler was not responsible for, we would have to note that he was not responsible for the Peloponnesian War, the Thirty Years War or the War of Jenkins Ear. Or rather, in correct Wikipedia style, we would have to say that "some people say" he was not responsible for those wars, thus leaving open the logical possibility that some other people (User:Khranus, perhaps) say that he was. Then we could spend six months arguing on Talk:War of Jenkins Ear about whether he was or not. Adam 23:12, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But we can easily note what he wasn't responsible for, by clearly noting what he was repsonsible for; ie: the European war. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Yes, which is why I said "World War II in Europe". I think that's better than "the European theatre of World War II," which implies that World War II had already started in another theatre. Also, most of the early results from the Amazon search on "Adolph Hitler" either seem to be older books or books not particularly about Hitler. A search for "Adolf Hitler" yields more than 4500 results. A google search on "Adolf Hitler" yields 392,000 results. A search on "Adolph Hitler" gives less than 70,000. I think the word "occasionally" is appropriate. john 23:46, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Occasionally is fine, I never removed it. Lirath Q. Pynnor


Vote

Hundreds of books use Adolph exclusively, tens of thousands of websites use Adolph, Britannica acknowledges this spelling...should Wikipedia? This is not a vote on whether to use "Adolph"; it is a vote on whether to mention that other writers do use it.

Yes

  • Lirath Q. Pynnor
  • Definetly as an alternative spelling, like Alphonso for Alfonso. Check Adolph in google.de for 371,000 hits. Enough? Muriel 14:25, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • 53,700 hits for "Adolph Hitler" (google.de). If you think this is wrong, i'm not going to contradict you anymore, because i lack the patience. But is not nonsense and its not a mis-spell. Have a nice day! Muriel 14:47, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • But you get zero hits inGerman language newspapers 168... 20:14, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
      • but google.de lists English language web sites as well as a default - you need to search for German language results only. Secretlondon 14:52, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
        • So its not just a German spelling! :) Muriel
          • It's a not a german spelling at all, as far as I can see. Secretlondon 14:55, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
            • 53,700 hits for "Adolph Hitler" so, if not german, what? You can always ask andy. I'm just 1/2 german... Muriel
              • While in German "ph" is an old spelling for "f" (which gets more and more uncommon nowadays) to all my knowledge Hitler always used "Adolf". I could find many websites spell him with "ph" so a redirect is needed, but AFAIK it is a misspelling. andy 15:24, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • So far as I know, the "ph" is sometimes used in German instead of the "f". Especially at the end of words. Thus you sometimes see "Emperor Franz Joseph" rather than "Emperor Franz Josef", and so forth. The "Adolph" spelling, while not normally used, is not, I think, necessarily incorrect. It seems to me that it's a valid alternative spelling, even if rather aesthetically unpleasant. john 19:45, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • No, in German you cannot interchange ph and f. If your name is Adolph, then your name isn't Adolf. If your name was Adolf, you cannot write Adolph. There are some particular words, which can be written both with ph and f (Telegrafie, Telegraphie), but in case of names, you have to be exactly. Hitler's name was Adolf!
      • So, Emperor Franz Josef, or Franz Joseph? I have certainly seen both. And that's a different question from anclicizing the name to "Francis Joseph". john 04:09, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • reddi ... just make a note that it is sometimes spelled Adolph Hitler.
  • Mention it, but not in the introduction. Somewhere towards the end of the article discuss how in English Adolph is a common mispelling. - SimonP 03:45, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
    • Its not exactly a mispelling, AFAIK, it was (for whatever reason) specifically used as an English transliteration -- eventually, people decided that German names didn't need to be modified so heavily. Lirath Q. Pynnor
  • Yes, it's a Wikipedia convention to confirm that you've landed at the right page and to mention regularly used alternative meanings near the start of the article so people know that they have arrived at the right place. We're a descriptive work, not a prescriptive one. JamesDay 09:07, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Yes, a note on the other spelling isn't a bad idea.168... 22:37, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • 168...'s excellent research on the subject is compelling, and I think very much worthy of a note in the article. Martin 23:32, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No

  • If you are checking _german_ websites in google, Adolf has 37.500 hits, Adolph only 178. I think Adolph is a misspelling. - user:82.82.117.83
  • I personally can't stand the other spelling of Adolf. Let's not just follow Brittanica on this issue, as we try to be better than them elsewise. --user:zanimum
  • Including the wrong spelling in the introduction makes the incorrect spelling appear equally valid, which it is not -- it is simply wrong.Maximus Rex 14:44, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Adolph is wrong. I guess it's an anglicisation, although I've never seen it in the books I've read. Maybe a US thing? Secretlondon 14:49, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
  • Adolph is definitely a misspelling. All German -ph hits are amateurish websites, while the -f hits include reliable sources. "Adolph" may be a redirect to the correct spelling, but the incorrect spelling should not be mentioned in the introduction. -- Baldhur 15:50, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • His name only had one spelling, the one in his passport. Everything else can be redirects, but nothing more. andy 19:53, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Just spell it the way he himself wrote it. --snoyes 20:01, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • It is properly "Adolf" even in English, so it should be spelled that way. This is kind of like Wilhelm II of Germany, which is not William (although there is Frederick William II of Prussia, for example, not Friedrich Wilhelm). But "Adolph" can redirect here because it is such a common misspelling. Adam Bishop 20:08, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • The modern common spelling is Adolf, Adolph is just a hangover from an older english spelling (it was used first AFAIK in the New York Times Nov 9 1923). --Imran
  • A redirect is enough.—Eloquence 13:16, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Here's the cover and title page of what appears to be a 1941 (and hence presumably official) German language edition of Mein Kampf with the "Adolf" spelling. And here it is blown up 168... 19:57, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Google News pulls out 677 hits for "Adolf", among them the New York Times but only 56 hits for "Adolph." I like the stats for newspapers better than the stats for all the Web when it comes to usage conventions.168... 20:09, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)


O.K., here's the doosey. Google News 'Deutschland' pulls up 208 hits for "Adolf" and not one for "Adolph." 168... 20:14, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But here's a book on Amazon that shows "Adolph" on the cover. Other out-of-print books by well known publishers, such as Bantam don't have their covers visible on Amazon but are listed with "Adolph" in the title. This back cover was published or republished in 2000 by the very reputable New York Review of Books. So I don't think it can be disputed that "Adolph" was and is a recognized spelling. Also the contemporary English media that Google News pulls up with "Adolph" supports this. This is how dictionaries decide how things are spelled and whether variations in spelling are legitimate--by looking at what gets published.168... 22:57, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

1941 German language edition of Mein Kampf with the "Adolf" spelling

Zero hits for "Adolph" in German language media and 208 hits for "Adolf"

677 hits for "Adolf" in English language media], including the New York Times

56 hits for "Adolph" in English language media

English book cover with "Adolph"

Bantam book title listed as "Adolph"

2000 New York Review of Books back cover with "Adolph"

This is the English wiki, English writers sometimes use "Adolph", we should note that it is sometimes spelled that way. You may not like the spelling, but it is used. Lirath Q. Pynnor

What about "Sometimes the spelling 'Adolph' is used by english authors. But, it is wrong."? 82.82.117.83 20:32, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
But it might not be wrong sometime in the future...maybe in hundreds of years they will be interchangeable :) I know for example that the name "Amalric," as in Amalric I of Jerusalem is also spelled Amaury, Aimery, and Maury, Amalric being only the "official" Latin form in the 11th century...so in 1000 years English may have some completely unrecognizable way of spelling Adolf. Anyway, what I'm getting at is "Adolph" is not wrong, it's just not how it is commonly spelled right now. Adam Bishop 20:47, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Why don't you post you arguments in the Pro/Contra section?

There seems to be some confusion among some of the arguments here. I don't think anybody has proposed to move the page to Adolph Hitler. Rather, it has been suggested to have, in the introduction, something saying Adolf Hitler (occasionally Adolph), or the like. Since it is, occasionally, spelled "Adolph" in English (and even more occasionally in German, seemingly), I don't see what's particularly offensive about this. In any event, in order to avoid this nasty argument, I propose that we move the page to Adolphus Hitler. Any seconds? john 04:09, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is a fundamental difference between a misspelling and an alternative spelling or transliteration. Misspellings should be addressed using redirects and not mentioned in the article itself -- Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Alternative spellings can be noted, but we should not elevate misspellings to the status of alternative spellings. If "Adoplh" ever was an alternative spelling in academia (it certainly isn't today), that can be noted somewhere long after genocide, war, and his love of dogs.—Eloquence 13:40, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

What about "In the beginning of Hitler's political career, in English he sometimes was spelled Adolph, but later only Adolf, which is correct." (perhaps in better english (-:) 82.82.127.117 13:43, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is there an article on List of longest Wikipedia debates about completely trivial and inconsequential subjects? If so this debate should head the list. I have made a small edit. Can we move on? Adam 09:54, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Do we have a final tally? Is everybody happy with where their votes stand? We're reverting back and forth between a version that notes "Adolph" as an incorrect spelling and one that makes no mention of it. The "incorrect" note strikes me as something that most "no" voters wouldn't object to, although at least user Wik (who argues simply that a "misspelling" isn't worth noting) seems adamantly opposed, so I don't know. What do others think about this specific proposition? 168... 22:37, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


All those dates in the introductory sentence make it very hard to parse and to read. The birth/death dates where they appear conform to a fairly familiar encyclopedia convention, so they aren't such a stumbling block as the others. Could we take out the date ranges of his chancellorship and fuhrer-ship? It seems to me that if readers know when Hitler lived then they're already acquired the gross conception of historical context that one hopes to convey in an introductory summation. Can't they wait until later in the article to learn precisely when he attained first this form of leadership and then that one? I think most readers curious for that info would have the patience to do so. 168... 22:19, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Wik is just plain wrong on his characterisation of the Adolph Hitler spelling. If I write "Adolf Jitler", that is a mispelling. But "Adolph Hitler" is not a mispelling, it is an incorrect but common alternative spelling. It arose because many classically educated people used to feel that the Greek "ph" is somehow superior to the simple "f", even in a pure Germanic name like Adolf. Even some Germans preferred this, as Wik himself demonstrated when he showed that Goebbels spelled his name "Joseph" rather than "Josef." The article should simply note that the alternative spelling exists but is incorrect, and move on to something more important. Adam 02:11, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well said. Agreed. -- Mattworld 02:17, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
You are wrong. Goebbels spelled his name Joseph because that was his name as much as Hitler's was Adolf. Other people may well be named Josef or Adolph. German names can occur in various spellings, but it is fixed for each individual. And it is not up to other people to define alternative spellings. I have to remind you that you were wrong before when you claimed that Goebbels somehow changed his spelling in 1933 from Joseph to the supposedly more Germanic Josef - now you seem to claim the opposite. --Wik 16:00, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)


Actually, it is indeed "up to other people to define alternative spellings" when the original name is spelled in another alphabet, like Chinese or Arabic. So we have Peking and Bejing and Mecca and Makkah, etc. Typographically, there's nothing standing in the way of us English speakers writing "Deutschland" and yet many of us choose to spell it "Germany."168... 17:00, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But German isn't using another alphabet, other than a few special letters which however don't occur in "Adolf Hitler". And "Deutschland" and "Germany" are words in different languages, not just different spellings of the same word. However, modern names (except some royalty) aren't translated like countries. Also, the claim that "Adolph Hitler" is somehow an English specialty is completely wrong; you'll find this misspelling on German sites too, just a bit less frequently because naturally Germans are more familiar with the correct spelling. --Wik 17:22, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

The fact of misspelling is not evidence one way or the other about legitimate spellings. While English publishers use both spellings, German publishers only use "Adolf":

I doubt "Adolph" and "Adolf" count as "modern names." Surely they must go back a few centuries, and so it wouldn't be surprising if countries had favorite renderings, like "Adolfo" and so occasionally used "Adolfo Hitler" (46 hits in Spanish media). You might be right that the modern convention is to spell names as their owners did when you use the same alphabet. And yet either that wasn't always the convention or else it wasn't a universal convention, because it's just a fact that some professional writers and publishers in the English speaking world used and continue use "Adolph" to refer to Hitler. 168... 18:56, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That definitely wasn't always the convention. john 19:03, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This may be shocking, but professional writers and publishers commit misspellings too. With "modern names" I meant names of modern people, who have all kinds of official documents with a fixed spelling of their name. That was different a few centuries ago, but not in Hitler's time. Those who use Adolph do so out of sheer ignorance, not as a conscious "translation" of Adolf. As I said, Germans are much more familiar with the name so German books are much less likely to have this misspelling. --Wik 20:08, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

English people have had spellings written down in dictionaries for centuries and yet dictionaries have had to evolve as the way people choose to spell has drifted. In English history and public discourse, Adolph/Adolf is adrift. It may be destined to berth at "Adolf", but it's not tied up there yet.168... 20:46, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is a proposed note for the bottom of the article that you want to censor:

'A note regarding the spelling "Adolph"'
'In the first half of the last century, Hitler's first name was often translated into English as "Adolph." This variant persists to some extent in English speaking countries, although in Germany and elsewhere "Adolf" is used exclusively. Hitler himself spelled his name "Adolf."'

How is this inaccurate? How does this encourage the spelling you are opposed to? You called it "not worth mentioning" in the subject line of one your reversions and "plainly wrong" in another. The former is sort of an argument, but I don't see how you could sincerely mean the latter. What exactly is wrong, in your view, with having some such note as this at the bottom? 168... 21:01, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As I said, I don't think it was consciously translated. If you think so, provide evidence. It was (and is) misspelled, and I don't think misspellings are worth mentioning (other than in Misspelling, maybe you want to add it there). --Wik 21:21, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether it was by someone's expert linguistic analysis or by an epileptic seizure that "Adolph Hitler" became common in English publishing. If it was a mistake, that's unfortunate, but mistakes happen and affect the course of history. As I argued, the above note does not actually encourage perpetuation of what you are calling a mistake, it merely notes that it happened and the amount of influence that it has had. So now is it only the word "translated" that you object to?168... 22:24, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, I also wonder what the basis is for the "first half of the last century". This seems like pure speculation. What is the evidence that at that time it was more often spelled Adolph than today? --Wik 22:30, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)
I posted a moment ago results of a Library of Congress title search for "Adolph Hitler" but most of the items are graphics, so the title they're catalogued under is a function not of the date of publication but when they were catalogued, which I can't tell from the entries, and so I decided they're not helpful.168... 01:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think this whole thing is fascinating, especially the passion it has evoked. Clearly, for English speakers (which I am) the subject of the misspelling of Hitler's name is something that should be mentioned somewhere. Why not here? Is it really such a problem? My apologies for interrupting such an erudite discussion, but really, why not mention it? WormRunner 22:37, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The problem is that some people deny that it is a misspelling. --Wik 22:46, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

More precisely the problem is that people disagree what makes something a "misspelling."168... 00:53, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

spelling

What makes the spelling so important? Obviously

  1. in German Adolf is used, Adolph is never used.
  2. in other languages Adolf is used
  3. in English today Adolf is used, even though in the very beginning, before Hitler became Nazi Germany's dictator, the New York Times or whoever spelled it Adolph, but later Adolf. If you want to, you can mention it, but not in the introduction, because it is just a misspelling.
  4. in German names ph cannot be interchanged by f.

All these arguments are repeated and repeated and the misspelling still is a misspelling. maybe it is mentionable, maybe it is absolutely unimportant because today in English nobody spells Adolph and it has no historical relevance, because Hitler never used Adolph, it was not his name. 82.82.131.134 01:10, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As has been documented over and over above, in fact publishers do to this day put "Adolph Hitler" in their newspapers and on the jackets of their books. Also, what we've lately been discussing is effectively a footnote, not something to include in the introduction. Don't ask me why it seems so important to someone that it not be mentioned.168... 01:27, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
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