Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage

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Ok. I've been a Wkipedia editor for about a year now and since then the number of historical articles has increased dramatically. The articles on royalty are now much more detailed and structured than they were a year ago. I think the efforts of a number of individuals, whose desire was to create unambiguously titled articles has been a success. The articles on the titles of the British and Irish peerage still remain a bit of a mess. Whilst we have standardised the general style of a peer and his title like so 'James Richard Cutherbertson, 3rd Duke of Mercia' there's no standard for how a page listing (or disambiguating) a peerage should be presented. There are a number of styles currently being used. e.g.

NB ^{I'm using old versions of these pages so that if someone edits the page into a different format (as I've done with the Earl of Derby) the comparison still makes sense.}

While many of these individual styles have their merits, I think it would make sense to agree on a standard format. I don't expect that peerage articles to be born wholly conforming to any particular format, but it would be nice to agree on something that we would like to aim for. I know some people who have a particular interest in the peerage have followed a similar format to that used in Debrett's, Burke's etc. but we do not have to limit ourselves to squeezing information into one page in the way they do. I'll leave the floor and see if anyone else would like to make a contribution to this discussion. Mintguy 10:08, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that our strength should be the ability to include details of the history of a title. But I also agree that we should have a basic format that is standardised. Deb 17:12, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a basic format for the articles on particular peerages. I somewhat partial to the format I used for the "Duke of Albany" article. I deliberated modelled this entry after the existing entries for the other dukedoms associated with the English, Scottish, and British royal families (e.g., Duke of York, Duke of Kent, Duke of Clarence). Perhaps one should reserve detailed biographical information about the holders of particular peerages (e.g., the 3rd Duke of Norfolk or the 8th Earl Spencer) for separate entries?

I would suggest: a) a succinct (or not, if so desired) description of the history of the title, with particular reference to multiple creations, if applicable, and some attention to subsidiary titles; followed by b) a list of holders of the title which ought, when applicable, to be separated out by creations. For articles on individual peers, do we think that all subsidiary titles should be listed, or not? john 17:35, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've been looking to craft an entry on the Earl of Derby, and I think he does deserve his own entry, as does the peerage itself. Besides which, keeping all the members of a house together (with say, the Cecils or the Bentincks), could get rather confusing. Mackensen 21:45, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've written up Lord John Manners, 7th Duke of Rutland. Should the page be listed as Lord John Manners, or as John James Robert Manners, 7th Duke of Rutland? Mackensen

The latter, or simply "John Manners, 7th Duke of Rutland", would probably be appropriate. On the other hand, we have Lord John Russell, 1st Earl Russell, so who knows? john 06:04, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Except that, technically, he was only "Lord John Russell" as a courtesy title while he was still merely the 3rd son of the Duke of Bedford. After being created 1st Earl Russell, the courtesy title no longer applied, and he generally shows up in book indexes, Webster's Biog. Dictionary, etc., as "John Russell, 1st Earl Russell." My personal taste would be for not using all of some peer's half-dozen forenames, as that would only make him harder to search, right? --Michael K. Smith 19:38, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Not much constructive comment on here for the general format of peerage title pages.

I was thinking, do people think it might be helpful to have a table at the bottom of the page for people holding hereditary peerage, whereby the the previous and following holders of their titles are shown. Similar to what we do for Prime Ministers? Mintguy 23:11, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That sounds like a fine idea, particularly with the Stanleys, Bentincks, Cecils, and Lennoxes, who show up frequently. I'd be all for it.

Mackensen 01:45, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea to me. Of course, what happens when someone holds several peerages which were inherited by different people. I think of, for instance, the 5th Duke of Sutherland. His Ducal title and related titles were inherited by his heir-male, a distant cousin, while his title of Earl of Sutherland was inherited by his heir-general, his niece. That kind of thing would have to be taken into account. Also someone like the last Duke of Portland - his Ducal title became extinct, but his title of Earl of Portland was inherited by his distant heir-male (a descendant of the 1st Earl of Portland, but not of the 1st Duke). And so on. john 05:36, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well, it was precisely in these cicumstances that I was thinking it might be useful. Um... here's a ficticious example.

Duke of Romford
Preceded by: Douglas Arthur Smith	Followed by: Extinct
&nbsp
Earl of Battersea
Baron Battersea
Preceded by: William Michael Smith	Followed by: Michael Angus Smith
Earl of Medway
Preceded by: New Creation	Followed by: Michael Angus Smith

Or something similar to this anyway Mintguy , might be a bit cluttered. 08:16, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

--- I beg to suggest as follows: ("associated titles"= Duke of Devonshire and Earl of Devonshire; Duke of Westminster and Earl Grosvenor; etc.)

The history of the title & associated titles
The reamainder, if different from the standard "heirs male"
A list of holders of the title & associated titles in the form:

--Earls of X, first Creation (1700)--

A B C D, 1st Earl of X (?-1725)
A B C D, 2nd Earl of X (1675-1750)

--Earls of X, second Creation (1800)--

A B C D, 1st Earl of X (1750-1825)
A B C D, 2nd Earl of X (1775-1850)
A B C D, 3rd Earl of X (became Duke of X in 1860) (1800-1875)

--Dukes of X (1860)--

A B C D, 1st Duke of X (1800-1875)
A B C D, 2nd Duke of X (1825-1900)
A B C D, 3rd Duke of X (1900-)

In order to standardize, the following must also be determined:

circa or ca. or c.
(?-1600) or (d. 1600)
(1950-) or (b. 1950)
3rd Creation or third Creation

-- Lord Emsworth 23:34, Nov 9, 2003 (UTC)

Your suggestions sound good to me. In terms of standardization, I'd recommend "c.", "(d.1600)", "(b.1950)", and have no particular preference with respect to "3rd" or "Third". john 05:22, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Associated titles are often redirects which is why I've used a format in which they are displayed as a list in bold. Also when listing the peers, headings need to show the peerages that were created at the same time. Is it really necessary to list the same person under two (or more) titles as above where it says so-and so became so-and-so in XXXX. Look at Duke of Hamilton for a complicated example (that could probably be simplified or split up). Or Earl of Lichfield for a case where a peer of a completely different creation inherited the title. Mintguy

Instead of "Earl of X (became Duke of X in XXXX)", one could write: "Earl of X (later Duke of X)." The purpose of this is perhaps to indicate a continuity, rather than presenting the titles as unrelated. Lord Emsworth 17:31, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

Shall we now generally formalise what has been so far discussed? One could list the general ideas on the page, and then add details as they are debated and determined. -- Lord Emsworth 22:25, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)

That sounds fine. john 23:59, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

A couple questions

Why is the order included on some titles (XXXX, 2nd Duke of XXXX) and not for others (XXXX, Duke of XXXX).

Does Earl of Hopetoun need to be moved? [EDIT: It was moved a minute after I posted this.]

--Jia ng 05:54, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Some people are not true holders of peerages and are listed under a courtesy title like John Manners, Marquess of Granby and Edward Adolphus Ferdinand Seymour, Earl St. Maur who both died before inheriting their father's titles. William Douglas, Duke of Hamilton became a duke on account of his wife being named the Duchess of Hamilton in her own right and doesn't have an ordinal. Some peers are also the only peer within that creation such as [Robert Carr, Earl of Somerset]] (I'm unclear as to whether these should have an ordinal or not). Others were named holders of titles at a time when it was unclear as to whether the they had the right to hold them and are therefore not truly the nth Duke or whatever and finally Royal princes do not generally have an ordinal for their other titles. Mintguy 09:50, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I concur with Minguy for the most part. I do think, though, that Robert Carr should have an ordinal, since the title which was then attainted was not Earl, but Duke, of Somerset. Others, like Thomas Beaufort, Duke of Exeter, and so forth, probably shouldn't. I think that in all other cases, an ordinal should be used, even when it's "1st" for the only holder of a peerage. using "George Eden, 1st Earl of Auckland", instead of "George Eden, Earl of Auckland", means that the reader immediately knows that he was Earl in his own right, and not merely a courtesy peer. I've been moving some like that, although I probably should have discussed it here first... anyway, what do others think? john 20:46, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)