If the Duchy of Cornwall is the only one left, when did the Duchy of Lancaster end, please? -- isis 3 Sep 2002
The Duchy of Lancaster exists -- it forms a distinct part of the Crown Estates -- but there is no associated dukedom. The last Duke of Lancaster was Henry "of Monmouth", sometime Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, and Duke of Aquitaine. When he became king (as Henry V) on 21 Mar 1412/3, the dukedom of Lancaster became merged in the crown - that is, it ceased to exist as a peerage title until such time as the monarch sees fit to grant it to someone. The duchy exists: its income goes to the monarch, but as the monarch cannot also be a peer, the Queen is neither Duchess of Lancaster nor -- as is sometimes asserted -- Duke of Lancaster. Someone else
I thought Prince Charles had been assigned the income from the Duchy of Lancaster; was whoever said that wrong, then? -- isis 4 Sep 2002
- Nope --he gets the income from teh lands, but doesn't hold the title. J Hofmann Kemp 21:20 Sep 3, 2002 (PDT)
I think they may have oversimplified. The income from the Duchy of Lancaster is part of the (private) income of the Queen, the income from the Duchy of Cornwall is part of the income of the Duke of Cornwall. The Queen uses this income to fund the Privy Purse, which defrays the expenses of the Royal family, including her son ('assigning' some of its income to him, if you will) but she can do so only because it is hers to dispose of. It also pays for the upkeep of Balmoral. The accounting is complex, and people/politicians/etc. fight about which income should be taxed, which expenditures should be reimbursed, what's part of the Civil List, what's not, who should live where and at whose expense, seemingly without end. But at least at present, and at least in the first instance, the income of Lancaster goes to the Queen, while the income of Cornwall goes to the Duke of Cornwall. -- Someone else 4 Sep 2002
Explanation of changes:
- . The statement that "The Dukedom is the last extant in the United Kingdom" is simply wrong. There are plenty of Dukes in the United Kingdom, but only one is associated with a Duchy.
- . A duchy is not necessarily autonomous. The dukedom and duchy of Cornwall was created by the English Parliament! There are in fact two duchies still extant in the UK, the income of one (Cornwall) goes to the Prince of Wales, the income of the other (Lancaster) goes to the Queen. Someone else 20:40 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)
According to my dictionary the words duchy and dukedom are coterminous.
The legal status of Cornwall is a matter of considerable debate. It is not proven whether Cornwall is in England or not, and the balance of evidence is to the contrary. You will also kindly note that "English" Heritage have now refrained from using the word "English" on sites in Cornwall in deference to local sensitivities. user:sjc
Duchy and dukedom are not coterminous in the British Peerage. Except for the Duke of Cornwall, the 'territorial designations' are not duchies. Such Dukes have dukedoms, but do not have duchies. There is no Duchy of Gloucester; there is no Duchy of Kent, but the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent hold dukedoms. The term refers to the title and not the territory. The peerage system's territorial designations have nothing to do with holding any sort of power in the territory designated (as is most vividly seen by turning one's attention to Lord Mountbatten of Burma...)
Perhaps you would like to add a discussion of the various views of the legal status of Cornwall to the page, or create a page for the Duchy of Cornwall. Someone else
I think you ought to advise the OED of this oversight on their part. These are probably however obviously specialised usages of the word, and I bow to your knowledge in this area.
We have done the "Is Cornwall in England" debate to death, Someone else. We have a form of words which (until this got raked over again) was satisfactory to all players. I do not propose to go over this ground again. I can reinstate the pages but frankly you will just find pages of ill-tempered vituperation on all sides with a conclusion which resulted in the present compromise. I have acquired the skills and I can round up the players to fight this as a guerilla edit-war without any difficulty at all. Let us just be pragmatic about this and not say that Cornwall is in England, because frankly I find it deeply insulting to be thought of as English. I am Cornish and I have my own language. user:sjc
Oddly, my OED contains the following as a definition of duchy: "In Great Britain, applied to the dukedoms of Cornwall and Lancaster (the two earliest in England) vested in the Royal Family, and having certain courts of their own, in which respect they differ from ordinary peerage dukedoms." Perhaps yours does not.
As to the geographical localization of Cornwall, the British Isles is fine by me. I have no intention of arguing one way or another about Cornwall and England. Someone else
- Phew, that's a relief. I had this horrible sense of deja vu. I am "happy" about Cornwall being listed as an English county since it is a description of realpolitik; however the political and judicial complexity surrounding Cornwall's status truly is horrendous and it is far safer not to muddy the water by including it directly in England, but referring to it in relation to Britain. It is a very Orwellian piece of doublethink but it works. user;sjc
PS: the qualification isn't in the Concise Edition, do you think I should write and complain, or ask for my money back? :-) user:sjc
- I'd say go ahead and sue them for infliction of pain and suffering, but I don't think it would do much good! <G> Someone else
- Nice idea. I'll sue 'em for every penny...