Talk:Kosovo/Archive 5

Old resolved discussions are archived at /Archive 1 and /Archive 2.

Kosovar, Kosovan, Kosovian

I've added an explanation of the usages of the collective term to the article. -- ChrisO 20:00, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It will go to BJODN soon :)) Nikola 07:42, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Adding summary info to article

The Kosovo article is already structured along the lines of a regular country or state article, but it lacks a summary table giving basic information on the place (official language, capital, largest city etc). If nobody objects, I'll have a go at creating a summary table for the article. I've already moved the map to the top of the page and will create a locator map based on that in the Serbia and Montenegro article. -- ChrisO 10:24, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

(Moved tables below)

Table based on subnational entity template

Kosovo and Metohia
Косово и Метохија
Kosova

File:Albania flag medium.png File:Yugoslavia flag large.png

Note: Kosovo had no official flag of its own under Serbian rule; the Albanian flag (left) is used exclusively by the Albanian-dominated administration. The Serb-inhabited areas of Kosovo use the flag of Serbia and Montenegro (right), which is formally the flag of the whole of Serbia, including Kosovo. File:SerbiaMontenegro-Kosovo.png
(In detail)

Harri Holkeri

* Interim administration pending final status agreement

Area
- Total
- % water

10,887 km²
n/a

Population
- Total (1999)
- Density

1,900,000 est.
175/km²

Ethnic groups

Albanians: 88%
Serbs: 7%
Other: 5%

Independence
- Declared
- Recognition

(From Serbia)
- 1990
- none

UTC +2

.YU

Please comment on this table below this point

Should I start to object? Nikola 07:04, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That's up to you. What's your objection? -- ChrisO 09:06, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I object as well, for several reasons:

1. Kosovo is not a state

I've answered this on Talk:Vojvodina; the table is a standard way of displaying data on subnational entities. It has nothing to do with whether a region is a state or not. -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

2. The Albanian flag is not officially recognized (unofficial data can not go into tables)

As far as I know, it has an official status within Kosovo, but an unofficial status in the Serbia-wide context. I'm not sure how else we can resolve this conflict of status, where each side says that the other's flag is illegitimate, other than by showing both flags and explaining the circumstances. How do you propose to address the official endorsement of the Albanian flag by the interim administration? -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

3. Ibrahim Rugova was never elected in a direct vote, he was actually nominated by the UN administrator, as well as Bajram Rexhepi. The UN administrators have the final say.

He was elected by the Kosovo assembly a year ago this month. [1] Don't forget that the US president isn't directly elected either, but nobody doubts his legitimacy (well, not until George W. Bush anyway :) -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

4. Kosovo did not declare independence, Kosovo Albanians did.

Strictly speaking, it would be more accurate to say Kosovo Albanian members of the Kosovo Assembly did. But really, the situation in that regard is little different to (for example) Abkhazia or Chechnya or for that matter Republika Srpska, all of which were secessions by one ethnic group. -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think that me and Nikola should write up a similar table for the Republic of Serbian Krajina, what do you say Nikola? -- Igor 0:46, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't object in principle, if you have the data. It's already been done for Biafra, an extinct secessionist state in Nigeria. -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's not a state? Nikola 09:25, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

True, but it's an administrative division. Wikipedia already has a well-established practice of giving summary information on administrative units of cities or countries (see, for instance, London Borough of Southwark or Surrey). Doing this for Kosovo implies nothing about the status of the province other than that it's an administrative division of Serbia, which we already know. I'd be grateful if you could verify the information that I'll be putting in the table, though. -- ChrisO 10:51, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I would have no problems if this table is not based on table used for states and is clearly distinct from them. In fact, I would proliferate it to Vojvodina, Serbia, Montenegro and Republika Srpska articles. However, I strongly object with several reasons if the table is going to have political data in it (such as: flag, president, prime minister etc.). What exactly would you put in the table? Nikola 22:25, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Full agreement with Nikola on this issue, the table should be in the format of similar administrative subdivisions in the world. -- Igor 0:46, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Which it already is; see Talk:Vojvodina for random examples. -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd overlooked this comment of yours before I added the table. (I've put the table next to this thread for ease of reference so that we can work on it here before it goes into the article. I've amended it a bit.)

I cannot believe this because you have at first proposed a table similar to that of London Borough of Southwark or Surrey. But then you have inserted a table that has nothing in common with these two, but looks completely like a country table and contains all the information that I've objected about and which is not present in these two tables. Nikola

Southwark and Surrey didn't prove to be an appropriate model because they don't give the full set of information needed for an article like this (e.g. languages, currency, political data). I used instead the model adopted for the republics of Russia - see, for instance, Dagestan or Karelia. It's a standard template for many Wikipedia articles on subnational divisions. -- ChrisO 10:18, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

So what, add the new -- Igor 0:46, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

At the very least the table should have physical, geographical and demographic information. It should also have political data: Kosovo does have an elected president and prime minister who are regarded by the Serbia/Montenegro government as being the legitimate government, representatives of Kosovo. See, for instance, the many references at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rugova+site%3Agov.yu which refer to "Kosovo President Ibrahim Rugova" and "Kosovo Premier Bajram Rexhepi". The S/M government clearly accepts these as their official titles and roles.

As far as I can see, these are relayings of news by various news agencies: "PRISTINA,Oct 13 (FoNet)-Kosovo President Ibrahim Rugova" by FoNet for example etc. However, even if they are regarded as legitimate government, I don't think that they should be in the table as 1) their positions are purely nominal, and each of their decisions can be withdrawn by UN administrator and 2) it suggests a sense of permanence and there is no final status of Kosovo yet; when there is, maybe Kosovo will not have a president. Nikola

I found many references from the Serbian government itself to Rugova as "Kosovo President" - see http://www.serbia.sr.gov.yu/news/2003-10/14/331454.html , among many others. That article describes Rugova and company as representatives of "Kosovo-Metohija's interim self-government institutions." Also, don't forget that the posts were filled through democratic elections; the individuals concerned were not self-appointed. Given that, I suggest that we include both the President and Prime Minister posts but note their interim status. (I've updated the table accordingly.) We can always change it later when things are finally worked out. -- ChrisO 10:18, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the flag is more problematic. I suggest that both the Albanian and Serbian flags be used in the table in recognition of the fact that Kosovo's elected administration uses the former, but the latter is the legal flag of the whole of Serbia, including Kosovo. This seems the most even-handed solution; using the Serbian flag alone would be rather like using the flag of the People's Republic of China as the sole flag on the Republic of China (Taiwan) article, while using the Albanian flag alone would disregard the formal position of the Serbian flag being the official Serbia-wide flag. See the amended form of the table for a possible way of displaying this.

Why displayingthem at all? Nikola

Because they're both in common use - it's as simple as that. NPOV means that we have to report things as they are, not just how one side or the other would like them to be. As a matter of record, we should say that the two main national communities each have their own flag exclusively used in their own areas of settlement. The interim government of Kosovo appears to have formally endorsed the use of the Albanian flag, so it would be POV to ignore that, just as it would be POV to ignore the national legal status of the Serbian flag. -- ChrisO 10:18, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the Serbs use both the Yugoslav and Serbian flag. There are many unofficial variations of both the Serbian and Albanian flags that are used in Kosovo and throughout the Balkans, listing all of them, particularly in such a table, would be ludicrous. --Igor

But am I right in suggesting that there are only two or possibly three flags with any official standing - the Serbian/Serbia-Montenegro flags (endorsed by the Serbia/S&M government), and the standard Albanian flag (endorsed by the Kosovo interim administration)? -- ChrisO 02:48, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've restored the information on the naming issue that you deleted without explanation.

I just reverted. Nikola

The majority consensus on Talk:Kosova was that it should be retained to explain the controversy; I suggest that you respect that view. If you have a problem with it, please have the courtesy to discuss the issue and suggest alternative ways of dealing with it, rather than just deleting factual material. -- ChrisO 18:37, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Table based on London Borough

Demographics
Kosovo and Metohia Косово и Метохија Kosova
File:Image:KosovoMetohiaMap.png
Population:	1.7-1.9 mill. (2002 UN est.)
Ethnicity:	88% Albanian, 6% Serb Note: Ethnic composition estimated and result of ethnic cleansing
Official languages:	Albanian, Serbian, English
Geography
Administrative Capital:	Priština
Other Cities:	Prizren, Peć, Đakovica, Kosovska Mitrovica, Uroševac
Area:	10,887 km²
Politics
UN Administrator:	Harri Holkeri
Economy
Currency:	Euro, Dinar

Please comment on this table below this point

Thanks for producing this, Igor. My comments:

Morwen has produced a nice concise locator map which I've included in my version of the table: see Image:SerbiaMontenegro-Kosovo.png. Image:KosovoMetohiaMap.png is a bit too large and detailed for this purpose and doesn't put Kosovo in its usual context as one of Serbia's two autonomous provinces.
The "ethnic composition" note is a bit POV; I suggest just listing the figures and explaining the context in the text.
Politics: you can't just ignore the elected administration. It's a good idea to include the UN Administrator (I've done this with my table as well) but given that the president and prime minister are recognised as such by all the governments and international organisations involved, they need to be included. Also, I think the "declaration of independence" does need to be mentioned. For comparison, see the tables in Chechnya or South Ossetia, which likewise declared independence in 1990 and 1992 respectively but haven't been recognised internationally. Northern Cyprus is not dissimilar.

The table isn't bad, but I still think that for the sake of consistency it would be better to use the standard model for subnational entities. -- ChrisO 11:59, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tables: outstanding issues

For ease of reference, I thought I'd add a list of the outstanding issues here so that we can work through them one by one. -- ChrisO 12:08, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Flag

How do we acknowledge the fact that each community in Kosovo endorses its own flag and deprecates the use of the other community's? Should we show both flags? Should we show neither?

Map

Which map should we use - Image:KosovoMetohiaMap.png (large, detailed) or Image:SerbiaMontenegro-Kosovo.png (small, locator map)?

Politics

How do we acknowledge the existence of the President and Prime Minister of the interim administration? Both offices are recognised by involved governments and international organisations.

How do we refer to the 1990 declaration of independence, given that it's accepted by one side but rejected by the other? Wikipedia precedent is to include it but note that it is unrecognised.