Talk:C. S. Lewis

I have replaced the references to Ireland for the reasons listed directly below.

In 1898, Northern Ireland did not yet exist as a political entity. Logically, his birthplace should be refered to as Belfast, Ireland (currently Northern Ireland). BTW - Lewis specifically and repeatedly identified himself in his published letters and diary as being "an Irishman".

Lets get away from the Irish or not thing. Say he was born in Belfast, that he lived in England and let people come to their own conclusions. Otherwise we get this very non NPOV claiming of him for one nationality or another. Doesn't anyone here know how to sign their name with the ~~~~ ? , Dabbler 21:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your change, Dabbler -- wise move. Oh, and the conversation immediately below took place in 2002....I don't think the software then allowed the four tilde signature, and apparently these authors weren't in the habit of signing their remarks. :-) Further down the page you'll see we mostly sign our comments. :-) Jwrosenzweig 22:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Obsolutely wrong -- If we were talking about any other group, there wouldn't even be a debate over listing his nationality. The British have a long history of labeling all that is good about the Irish as "British" and all that is bad as "Irish". Richard Harris once noted that when he won the Golden Globe all the British papers said "British actor wins award", but when he got into a bar fight the British papers said, "Irish actor in bar brawl." 165.230.141.67 18:33, 6 August 2005 (UTC) joey1899

As someone with Irish origins myself albeit removed a generation, I don't think that is the case here. I suggested that we let people make their own mind up, but you are putting in your POV that he was Irish. I didn't say he was British, I said he was born in Belfast, that is a fact. There are unreferenced claims above that Lewis said he was Irish. Dabbler 02:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

__________

If he was born in Ireland, why do you call him English? Did he have English parents and thereupon move back to England?

He lived at various locations in the British Isles.

That doesn't make him English, does it?

He was a professor of English at an english university (Oxford). That sounds like an english academic to me. Make it British if you're so uptight about it!

Huh, that makes him an Irish-born professor of English at an English university. Clear enough. I'll make the change.

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On Larry's query about him being a professor of english; the C.S. Lewis foundation's web page (http://www.cslewis.org) has this:

1925 
On May 20, Lewis was elected a Fellow of Magdalen College,
Oxford, where he served as tutor in English Language and      
Literature for 29 years until leaving for Magdalene College, 
Cambridge, in 1954. 

..and when he moved to Cambridge he got the chair of Medieval and Renaissance Literature; so even if he wasn't a professor at Oxford, he was at Cambridge.

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He was born in Belfast which (for political reasons) does not make him Irish but British, as Belfast is part of Northern Ireland which is itself part of the United Kingdom. As an Irishman, I'm not going to comment on the politics :) --John Lynch

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1) As an adult convert he was very much interested in presenting a reasonable case for the truth of Christianity." - Convert to which faith exactly? C of E, I presume, but I don't know.

Yes, C of E.

2) "his relationship with an American fan, Joy Gresham, whom he met and married in London" -- this site http://www.reporternews.com/religion/matt1128.html gives her name as "Joy Davidman".

Davidman was her maiden name; Gresham is from her first marriage.

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as for the spelling of "medieval": The OED reports no recent uses of "mediaeval". Lewis himself had "medieval" in the title to "The Discarded Image" (as old versions of the page, and other sources, show). The OED reports nothing distinctively American about "medieval" or British about "mediaeval", recording uses from both sides of the pond (though the latter, as I said, has no recent uses). --Tb 06:05 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Catholicism etc.

"His writings so closely parallel the theology of Catholicism that his apparent decision to remain an Anglican is the subject of biographical interest.". This really needs to be explained. Lewis' beliefs were fairly middle of the road for Anglicanism. Read his own introduction to Mere Christianity for examples of how he considered his beliefs different from Catholicism. Which aspects of his theology do you think were particularly Catholic? DJ Clayworth 13:57, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hello! I wasn't concerned so much with theological comparisons. I was just looking for a segue to make the demographic point, that Catholics are always passing his books back and forth and wonder that he didn't convert. Lewis was opposed to women serving as clergy; perhaps that would have been the last straw. Anyway, Catholics are curious about this subject, and it is the focus of a recent biographical book. I have tried to find another (closer to my original way) of phrasing the matter. Trc | [msg] 14:29, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Lewis' writings, at least his popular ones, are appreciated by such a wide range of Christians that I think many of them wonder why he didn't convert to their denomination. I think that was part of his genius. DJ Clayworth 15:06, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

He was a fine ecumenist. Today, of course, members of denominations with women clergy would be less inclined to feel this affinity. I don't want to claim CS Lewis for Catholicism; don't mistake me. I think it plausible that had he lived to see the adoption of women clergy in the Anglican church he would have left it then, but that's a little like saying, If I had a brother, would he like spinach. Who can say? I want the entry to in some way reflect the especial interest Catholics feel for his writings. I think it goes a little beyond, in relation to their totality, what other groups feel. Trc | [msg] 15:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Trc, as an evangelical who has close friends and relatives who are Catholic, I think you severely underestimate the level of devotion other denominations pay to Lewis. :-) I certainly agree with you that many Catholics see Lewis as a good candidate for conversion to their denomination -- I could offer you a long list of mainline and evangelical Protestants who would like to think he would have chosen them also. Furthermore, I have to say that this is at the edges of biographical interest -- an unidentifiable number of Catholics believe a certain historical figure was a good candidate for conversion, and are surprised that he never did so. Given that Lewis didn't make this switch, and that his close Catholic friends seem never to have pressed him to do so (indeed, I can't think of any of them suggesting he would become Catholic, even in private letters now published), it's speculative enough that we might be best to do without it. Leaving it in as it stands implies, to me, that Lewis "really was more Catholic than Anglican" -- anyone familiar with Lewis's beliefs can point to any of a dozen reasons he had for rejecting Catholicism (while continuing to respect the beliefs of his Catholic friends), and certainly Tolkien was often angered by "the Ulster blood" in Lewis, which I can only take to mean that Lewis had some kind of anti-Catholic tendencies as a result of growing up in Northern Ireland. He was a very traditional thinker who was brought to Christ by Catholics and whose heroes tended to be Catholic, and Catholics love to read his works, but I think we mislead too much if we note that Catholics everywhere are filled with wonder that he did not "go over to Rome". That's my thoughts. Jwrosenzweig 16:15, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I'm convinced. Go ahead and adapt the wording to your liking. I don't have before me a detailed comparison of Lewis' and Catholic theology, so I can't really much work on this anyway. Actually, let's remove my whole addition, except to make sure the article says he was Anglican, which it didn't before yesterday. There is one important point that one day might find its way in to the article: he objected to a female clergy. He thought that was pretty important. In a moment now, I'll put the page back, except to include an Anglican mention. Trc | [msg] 18:28, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I added a book reference. Other books might be listed there too. The one I listed sounds quite interesting. If you like, incorporate it into the text rather than have a separate listing section. Trc | [msg] 18:44, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Trc, didn't mean to shut you down completely -- I hope you're satisfied with this resolution. I'll add to that list of books....we need to cover at least the Green & Hooper biography, the Kilby bio, and the Wilson bio, as well as something by Lindskoog and probably Kreeft as well. Get the major works in there. Jwrosenzweig 20:42, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's a good solution. I knew my point was one of minor coloration to start with, and the book listed there certainly makes it better than I would be able to do. Cheers! Trc | [msg] 23:16, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Re Lewis and Catholicism. Features of Lewis's life/thought that have made some people think that he "feels Catholic" include: (i) his belief in a version of the doctrine of purgatory; (ii) the fact that he made a regular confession for much of his life; (iii) his love of pre-Reformation literature (eg Dante); (iv) his admiration for Chesterton; and (v) his close friendships with Catholics such as Tolkien and Bede Griffiths. None of this makes him a closet Roman Catholic, or even an Anglo-Catholic. He was an Anglican with a visceral dislike for factionalism within the church. His correspondence (in Latin!) with an Italian priest in Verona, written between the late 1940s and the early 1960s, makes clear both his strong desire for reconciliation between the churches, and his inability to accept significant aspects of Catholic teaching (in particular the teaching about the role and authority of the Pope). I haven't tried to put any of this in the article.

Removals

I'm a bit concerned about the recent removal of information from this page by User:SilentT. For example, it's useful to note that he's the winner of a Carnegie medal, and to mention a movie made about his life. Could we either have the information restored, or have some discussion on why it should be removed? Cheers. — Matt 22:16, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I rather think the same, so I've decided to be bold and put most of the text back in. I'm not sure that some of it shouldn't go, but the place to discuss it is here, rather than in submission remarks, since clearly there's a disagreement among editors. Dandrake 23:24, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I'm sorry if my changes were drastic. I'm new when it comes to editing, and I wasn't aware that I should have said anything here about my changes.

No problem; it's great that you want to contribute, and Wikipedia (as you probably know) has a policy of "be bold" in making changes (Wikipedia:Be bold). For some changes, though, particularly deletions, it's often prudent just to drop a note on the Talk: page to double check, and if noone responds press ahead. — Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed the reference to the Carnegie Medal mainly because it was a one-sentence paragraph. I didn't know how to expand it, and I couldn't figure out how to work it into a different paragraph, so I just removed it and added a sentence about it to the Final Battle page.

I think it's important to mention literary awards; perhaps we can work harder to find a way to work it in. Did he win any other accolades?— Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The See also section seemed to be unnecessary clutter to me. It contained a link to Joy Gresham, which was unnecessary as she is mentioned earlier in the article. It also contained links to Douglas Gresham and the Dark Tower. I wasn't sure of how to work a reference to either into the main part of the article, and they just didn't seem important enough to warrant a seperate section.

In a way, the "See also" section is the ideal place for links that aren't important enough to warrant a section, or that can't otherwise be worked into the text; but I don't think it matters much either way. — Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The narnia template just seemed out of place to me. It's great for people who want to know about the Chronicles, but unnecessary for people who want to know about Lewis.

Sure. — Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed the Movies about Lewis section because the only movie mentioned was Shadowlands, which is mentioned earlier in the article.

Oops, I didn't notice the previous Shadowlands mention before; I agree with the change, then. — Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just in case you were worried, I would like to say that I'm done making removals. :-) There are a few things I would like to add to the article. I think a picture of Lewis would be nice, though I'm not really sure how to find one that's public domain. Also, I think it'd be nice if the article had a more logical flow - right now it seems kind of rambly, but maybe it's just me. I was thinking it'd be helpful to divide his life into three or four sections and then write about what happened to him during each period, as well as what he wrote during each period. After that, there could be a section about the things he wrote that were published after his death, as well as the books and movies that have been made about him. And last there could be a bibliography of his works. What do y'all think of this idea?

SilentT 04:59, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

The article certainly needs to be divided into sections; your division sounds good to me! — Matt 00:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree about the need for sections. My proposal would be "Life", "Fiction and Poetry", "Scholarly Writings", "Christian Non-Fiction" (including Surprised by Joy), and "Works About Lewis", not necessarily in that order. However, I'm perfectly happy to leave the decision to people who know more about Lewis that I do, which is probably all of you reading this. However, I'm about to try to straighten out the part about the novels, which may make reorganization easier for SilentT (tmesis?) or whoever. --JerryFriedman 20:14, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Isn't The Screwtape Letters a novel? If so, I think mention of it should be moved. And isn't Dymer a long poem? If so, I think the article should say that both of Lewis's pre-conversion books were poetry. --JerryFriedman 20:14, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Screwtape Letters is indeed a novel, so we should probably move it out of its current paragraph (which notes that Screwtape is "in addition" to Lewis' novels). Anyone object? -- Walkiped 16:00, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Although I haven't read it (it's on my "To-Read" list...), I understand that it takes the form of a series of letters from Screwtape to his nephew. I presume this form doesn't discount it from being classed as a novel? — Matt 23:43, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, apparently it's technically an epistolary novel. I moved the reference to The Screwtape Letters up in the article and rewrote it to reflect that it's a novel. - Walkiped 00:30, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Duplicate links

I assume that the anon. user edited out the links either because they were duplicates (linked to earlier in the article) or because they were years without more general significance for the article. There's some disagreement over the latter (some users want to link to everything linkable, others feel that too many links spoil the look and readability of the text and distract attention from the genuinely relevant and useful links), but I don't think that there's any over the former. My sympathy is with those who want to cut down on links, but we could discuss it if you'd like. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:28, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Minor link

22 November 1963 was also the day of the first boradcast of Dr Who.

It was also the day that Aldous Huxley died. Dabbler 17:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Question

Why is Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer in the fiction section?

Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer is a fictional work, written in the style of letters to a hypothetical correspondant.

I wish to disagree, and strenuously. It is a nonfictional work on the subject of prayer, cast fictively in the form of a series of letters to a hypothetical correspondant. That is, while the fictional correspondent is used to give the material form, the material itself is nonfictional. Sturgeonslawyer (12Apr05 4.30 PM PDST)

I don't know, this is a difficult distinction to make. After all, Lewis invents a crisis for his fictional correspondent (Lewis makes a joke about the fellow's son, then apologizes in the next letter for the bad timing of his joke, saying how sorry he was about the accident involving the son, and wishing him a speedy recovery). I don't see how we can call this "non-fictional material"--it's not that Lewis is simply saying true things about prayer to an invented name in the form of letters...he's actually pretending that there is a real person on the other end (to joke with, and apologize to, etc.), and that puts this in an unusual category. Hard to classify, but I don't think "a nonfictional work on the subject of prayer" is quite it. Jwrosenzweig 22:11, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but that's exactly the kind of thing that makes me think of it as a nonfiction work. The events in "Malcolm's" life are so blatantly manipulated to give Lewis the opportunity to make the points he wishes to make, that "Malcolm" utterly refuses to gel as any kind of character whatsoever; he's less a character than the slave in Plato's dialogue "Meno." In fairness, one could almost say the same thing about The Screwtape Letters, if it were not that Lewis doesn't speak in propra persona (and can't, since Screwatpe exists to take, essentially, a contrarian position: a strawman with nobody to demolish him). Still, the question is hardly open-and-shut, is it?Sturgeonslawyer 17:02 PDST 9 May 2005

I agree--not open-and-shut at all. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. On balance, having considered it, I think it's probably best in non-fiction (perhaps with an explanatory note?). Certainly if we consider it an epistolary novel, it's terribly weak, but as a non-fiction work on the role of prayer, it makes much more sense. Honestly it feels more than anything else like a sort of confessional memoir--almost as though Lewis had named his Diary "Malcolm" (save those few invented details of Malcolm's life which I've already alluded to). Definitely a tough question. Jwrosenzweig 22:11, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

It may be helpful to know that both my local Library and the Library of congress classify this book as non-fiction

IMO "Letters to Malcolm" is clearly non-fiction. Lewes uses the literary form of letters to an imaginary correspondent in order to development theological arguments. Similarly many philosophers have written dialogues between imaginary characters in order to develop philosophical arguments. Is Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" a work of fiction beause the characters don't exist? Or are Plato's dialogues fiction, on the grounds that they are unlikely to be a verbatim report of what Socrates and his interlocutors actually said? With all due respect to earlier correspondents, I don't think these are hard questions at all. Hume and Plato belong in philosophy, not fiction; and "Letters to Malcolm" is theology, not fiction.

Poetry?

Should a section be devoted to his poetry like the Late Passenger?12.220.47.145 21:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Trilemma

Added a point to the trilemma argument. I was considering adding a possibility that yes, Jesus was divine, but so are we all - don't we each have the power to forgive? However, this would be original research. The point I added was taken from Earl Doherty's book and is not.

Check trilemma. A critique would not be POV there. David Bergan 21:41, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed the following text, which followed the trilemma:

(The problem with this argument, of course, is that it presupposes that the stories in the Gospels are true. It assumes that the miracles actually happened; that Jesus actually spoke the words attributed to him. It is faulty logic because if one believes the Gospels are true, then one already is a Christian, and therefore needs no argument in favor of Christianity. If one does not believe the Gospels are true, then the argument is baseless and therefore ineffective as a persuasive argument.)

Removed because it is clearly POV. The purpose of this section is to state Lewis's trilemma argument, not to provide support or opposition to it. --Staecker 5 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)

Why then not remove this sentence: If He was a liar or insane, this would presumably invalidate His moral teachings.? -- It is another unjustifyable and unneeded POV because liars and insane people can be [good] moral teachers. Why not?

The point of the section is to explain Lewis' trilemma argument as he presents it. The above sentence is a critical part of Lewis' argument. Of course it is POV because the whole trilemma argument is POV. But the section's job is to explain what the trilemma is, not to give support or opposition. The above sentence is not support, it's crucial to the argument. --Staecker 14:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the Trilemma is grossly shortened here, which is what allows that POV critique in the first place. The Trilemma has two parts; the first proves that Jesus claimed to be divine, the second proves his claim was true. As for the idea that we are all divine, that just accepts one idea as being true, that Jesus was divine. It ignores everything else he said in his ministry. The entire trilemma is as follows:

• • • Assuming people claimed that Jesus claimed to be God (simple fact)
    • The reports were either true, or they weren't
    • 1. If the reports were false, then the witnesses either knew it or they didn't
      • A. If they knew it then they were lying. Yet they were willing to die torturous deaths for the lie, even after watching others die torturous deaths
      • B. Then they didn't know it, then how did such legends spring up so quickly, within Jesus' own lifetime and among people who knew him personally?
    • 2. If the reports were true, then Jesus was either telling the truth or a falsehood
      • A. If Jesus was making a false claim he either knew it or he did not
        • i. If he knew his claims were false, then he was a liar. Yet he was willing to die for the lie, in a brutal painful fashion, despite being given an "out" by the Roman Prelate
        • ii. If he did not know his claims were false, then he was insane. Yet his actions and words were not those normally exhibited by insane men, and those who followed him believed him to be quite sane
      • B. All other possibilities eliminated, Jesus claimed to be God, WAS God, and therefore, there IS a God.

Makes quite a difference this way, huh? Tom S 134.152.161.35 17:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

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Dear lord the lewis page is horrible. I'm sorry but an author of his magatude deserves something better than this thrown together mush.

Or even:"Dear Lord, the Lewis page is horrible. I'm sorry, but an author of his magnitude deserves something better than this thrown-together mush." DJ Clayworth 28 June 2005 13:05 (UTC)

This is a talk page. Chill, please. The fact that you pointed out my mispellings and lack of appropriate commas says more about you than my grasp of English.  :)--Allthewhile 23:18, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Seriously I think 'horrible' is an exaggeration, but the article is remarkably short on biographical detail. DJ Clayworth 28 June 2005 13:12 (UTC)

Clarification on the "Trilemma"

I can say with all sincereity that some people in here have NOT read Lewis and his exposition of the Lord, Liar, or Lunatic argument. The argument is specifically aimed against a specific line of reasoning among unbelievers; "The important thing about Jesus was that he should be remembered as a great moral teacher" Lewis frames it specifically against those who accept him as merely a great moral teacher, but nothing more and also accept what he said as fact. Lewis says that if we assume what is said by Jesus of the bible are his words, then he is either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. --Allthewhile 23:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree. It cannot be taken as a "proof" of Jesus' divinity -- it merely demonstrates (fairly convincingly, to me) that Jesus' status as a "good man" cannot be divorced from his claims of divinity. If someone accepts (largely) the Gospel accounts but believes they show merely a nice fellow, Lewis argues that they are failing to deal with the logical consequences of their position. Jwrosenzweig 07:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

"Linguist"?

Lewis is said (in the list of categories) to have been a British linguist. I know next to nothing about him other than what I read in this article, but the article suggests that he was no more a linguist (in even the broadest sense of the word) than is anybody who studies Middle English lit. If this is so, I don't think that he was a linguist. Can somebody either confirm my suspicions that he wasn't a linguist, or beef up his linguistic credentials in the article? -- Hoary 23:35, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a conflation between him and his close friend, the philologist Tolkien? Lewis enjoyed playing around with language, as I recall, and learned Icelandic for the purpose of joining some scholarly gentleman's club, but I can't think of any reason to characterize him as a linguist. A scholar in the area of literature, definitely. But that, of course, is a separate issue. Jwrosenzweig 05:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. I've removed the category (or removed CSL from it). -- Hoary 03:05, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Could this Irish/English argument be any more pointless?

Honestly, I'd like to cut any statement that "he was Irish" or "he was English". It seems far fairer to me to say he was born and raised in Belfast, and lived most of his adult life in England, and let others decide what they will. We could even mention his frequent holidays in Ireland (though not in the introduction). Anyway, whatever we do, I'd like to hear some consensus on it so we can stop this silly slow edit war over the intro -- whether you agree or disagree with me, I hope some of you will comment so we can sort this out. :-) Any ideas? Jwrosenzweig 08:56, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, there is a complex interplay of emotional responses between the descriptions "Irish" and "British". These are exacerbated when Northern Ireland is involved. If we just state the incontrovertible facts of lewis' birth and residence then people can have their POV not Wikipedia. Dabbler 10:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree. Virtually every other biography begins by listing the person's nationality. Beethoven is listed as German, although there was no Germany during his lifetime. Dvorak is listed as Czech, although he was born into the Austian-Hungarian Empire. Thomas Mann is listed as German, although he became an American citizen. And on and on. Lewis was born in Ireland and called himself "an Irishman". It is inappropriate to omit his nationality. Only Jwrosenzwieg and Dabbler are creating any pointless controversy about the matter. 128.6.205.68

Then let's correct those other articles you refer to. I see nothing wrong with noting that Beethoven was born and raised in "what is now Germany". The same goes for Dvorak. If Mann became an American citizen, then this should certainly warrant mention in his article. Turning to Lewis, if he called himself an Irishman, he certainly did not do so often. He is not commonly referred to as an "Irish author" by literary critics. He left Ireland at a young age and did not return there to live. I think this is then clearly a figure whose biography needs to avoid simply categorizing him as "Irish". There's nothing inappropriate with being precise about where he was born and where he lived his adult life. Jwrosenzweig 22:14, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You misunderstand. Omitting Beethoven's German identity and Dvorak's Czech identity would be less precise - not more precise - because identity is not merely a matter of politics or living situation. Beethoven and Mann identitified themselves as German and Dvorak identified himself as Czech. Rightly or wrongly, we need to know that identity to understand them properly. The same is true for Lewis. Would an Englishman of Lewis's time have had such a complicated and paradoxical view of Catholicism as Lewis did? Would an Englishman have drawn on Celtic mythology as subtly as Lewis did? Would an Englishman have included such odd almost misplaced allusions to Ireland in his work (e.g. the green, harp room in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the Celticized Latin of the Space Triolgy, the basing of the character of Merlin on W. B. Yeats, etc.)? Please note that I'm not claiming that Lewis was an Irish nationalist; he certainly was not. And I'm happy to include that he was from a staunchly Protestant family from the north. 128.6.205.70

I wish it wasn't an issue, but it is, so I have to weigh in by saying that Anglo-Irish is not the solution. Reading the article shd. be enough to show this. And Lewis isn't Wilde, either. But if I'm the only one who thinks this, I'm fine leaving a niggling point alone. Sirnickdon 01:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Posthumous work?

The article makes a reference to Lewis's posthumous work. Surely someone can't write something posthumously? Is this supposed to be 'posthumously published'?--Sweet-indigo 16:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Possible heretic?

Further information: Talk:Heresy

This section has not helped to improve the article, and should be merged with Talk:Heresy, where it may be productive. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I have start to reply in the Talk:heresy section. MythSearcher 01:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

To be of some help, the article might be able to first change to "Some doubt that C.S. Lewis is a Christian, and his way of thinking seems to be different and maybe even heretical to some. However, it seems like a majority still doubt that his thoughts should be doubted." MythSearcher 01:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Frankly that sentence is not helpful. There is, I submit, no single person with any Christian affiliation alive or dead about which it could not be written "some doubt that he/she is a Christian". I've herd it said about Mother Theresa (and every other Catholic), and pretty much every church leader. Then of course there are the sects that claim that they are the only true Christians, so they would doubt Lewis' Christianity (and all the other two billion Christians). I really don't think it's necessary to say stuff like this. DJ Clayworth 16:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Inerrancy?

Anon - Let me put my question a little more specifically... Why do you believe that Jude, Revelations, and 2 Peter are inspired, inerrant, and infallible... but not The Shepherd of Hermas or Pilgrim's Progress? Where does either God or reason tell us that we must believe the inerrancy of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible? How do you know that those 66 books are God-written and every other book is not? David Bergan 22:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

PS And for extra-credit, who was the first person to declare the 66 books to be inerrant, and why? David Bergan 22:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

PPS I'll be gone for a few days. But I look forward to reading your answers upon my return. Kind regards, David Bergan 22:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Please remove this discussion to Talk:Biblical inerrancy, where it may become productive. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Harry Potter

The article currently says (of Narnia) "J.K. Rowling might point them as major influence on her novels". Well she either has done or hasn't, and if she hasn't then we shouldn't mention it. DJ Clayworth 16:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Rowling has been reported as saying several different things about the Narnia books, ranging from saying that she rereads them every time she sees one to never having completed the series. Unless you can find a definitive statement, I suspect that it would be better to remove the reference altogether. Dabbler 16:55, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

http://www.mugglenet.com/books/bbcchat1.shtml reports the following exchange-- "Q. Did you read the Narnia books when you were a child? A. Yes I did and I liked them, though all the Christian symbolism utterly escaped me. It was only when I re-read them later in life that it struck me forcibly." As it appears to be a transcript of an interview, I'd say it is reasonably reliable. If there are conflicting statements...well, I don't know. We can't clutter up this page with quotes. If someone can produce a direct quotation that says the opposite of this, I think we have to say that "J.K. Rowling has occasionally indicated appreciation for the books, though at other times she has claimed to have read only a few of the books in the series" or something along those lines. If the only indications are people's paraphrases of Rowling, then I think we can leave a more positive claim in. Certainly I could, if I wanted to, misparaphrase the above quotation as "When asked about Narnia, Rowling describes the Christian symbolism in the books as almost physically violent" -- I'm not inclined to trust paraphrases. --User:Jwrosenzweig stopping by anonymously

How about this quote from a Time magazine interview:

'Rowling has never finished The Lord of the Rings. She hasn't even read all of C.S. Lewis' Narnia novels, which her books get compared to a lot. There's something about Lewis' sentimentality about children that gets on her nerves.' [1]. Dabbler 15:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

While the above is not a direct quote, here is another which is almost directly contradictory. 'She loved C. S. Lewis and E. Nesbit, but was not such a fan of Roald Dahl. As for the Enid Blyton books, Rowling says she read them all, but was never tempted to go back to them, whereas she would read and re-read Lewis. "Even now, if I was in a room with one of the Narnia books I would pick it up like a shot and re-read it." '[2]

I think mention of Rowling in this Lewis article is simply unnecessary (and clearly unwise, considering the contradictory references given above). If the article wanted to reference every author who has ever mentioned Lewis as an inspiration, well, it would go on for pages. Admit it: you only want to mention Rowling because she's currently popular and you like her Harry Potter books. More appropriate to the article might be authors who wrote works with the same level of overt Christian apologetics as Lewis' Narnia, and were inspired by him to express their faith likewise. (No one would accuse the Harry Potter series of containing overt Christian apologetics, and Rowling herself would probably slap you, so it really seems quite out of place here.)

Irish? My passport says British... And I really do not care.

The readers can decide on their own by reading the article, and I do not see ANY information loss in not stating if he was Irish or British in the first introduction paragraph. Rather, it is enough to state that he was an author and scholar.
I move to stop this re-editing and stick to not having a nationality in front of that statement.
MythSearcher 13:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree. Virtually every other biography begins by listing the person's nationality. Lewis was born in Ireland (which he called "home") and consistently identified himself as "an Irishman". It is inappropriate to omit his nationality. In fact, even a passing acquaintance with his own letters reveals that a theme of his life was what it meant to be an Irishman resident in England. Here are two quick examples.

1. In describing his time at Oxford he wrote, “I am often surprised to find how utterly ignored Yeats is among the men I have met: perhaps his appeal is purely Irish - if so, then thank the gods that I am Irish.” (Collected Letters, Vol. 1, pg. 342)

2. Describing an encounter with a fellow Irishman he wrote, “Like all Irish people who meet in England we ended by criticisms of the inevitable flippancy and dullness of the Anglo-Saxon race. After all, ami, there is no doubt that the Irish are the only people, . . . I would not gladly live or die among another folk.” (Collected Letters, Vol. 1, pg. 310)

The fact that he did live and die among another folk (due to his Oxford career) helps explain why Lewis so regularly visited Ireland and sought out the company of the many Irish then resident in England. Lewis refered to this as "my Irish life".

If anything, a section on this theme of Lewis’s life – an Irishman in England – should be added. There is ample source material for it. (As soon as I have the time I will do just that.) - joey1899

Of course if we are insisting on putting down his nationality, then his nationality is unquestionably British not Irish. Dabbler 20:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

You've obviously not bothered to read what anyone else has written (especially immediately above).

Well, Anonymous, I would point out that you have not read anything above either or you would have noticed that I have several times expressed my opinion that the whole claim of Irishness or Britishness is rather silly and to myy mind demonstrates a small minded chauvinism. Dabbler 21:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Your opinion is unsubstantiated and beside the point. Being an Irishman in England was clearly an issue for Lewis, as his own letters attest, and must be included. (See above.)

We're not going to get a definitive answer on this. If you were to have looked at Lewis' passport at any time in his life it would have said "British citizen". However the same would have been true for a lot of the people we label as Irish, or Scottish, or Welsh. The trouble is that someone reading 'Irish' might (incorrectly) assume that at some point he was a citizen of the Irish republic. Of course we could go the same route we seem to be going with all Americans, which is to say "British author of Irish descent". Better still, I've just noticed that for Oscar Wilde (an analagous case) we say "Anglo-Irish". DJ Clayworth 21:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

First, Lewis's view must be the primary consideration, since being Irish in England was an issue for him and needs to be covered by the article. (See above!!) Second, he was a citizen of the Republic, because by Irish law anyone born on the island of Ireland is a citizen. Third, we are talking about nationality, which is a matter of identity, not citizenship, and Lewis identified himself as "Irish". Since the Republic was only established in 1949, by your logic there were no Irish people until then. Fourth, while he also would have been a U.K. citizen, "British" is only a short-hand expression. The U.K. is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or when Lewis was born the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland). Even the name of the country distinguishes British from Irish. The British are from Great Britain (Scottish, English, Welsh); the Irish from Ireland (the Republic and Northern Ireland). - joey1899

This is funny enough, that I was born in Hong Kong and my United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland passport(British passport) said "British citizen" in the "Nationality field" so I assumed all GBR passports says the same. But well, of course Hong Kong is the only place where some people actually have the right to obtain a British passport, where other places in the world the passports are issued at the discretion of the Home Secretary under the Royal Prerogative. So that it might be different from other "higher class" U.K. passports. I really don't care about if he is Irish or British, as long as everyone can read and judge by themselves. Also, might as well just state that he is "U.K." author and scholar. And another funny point. His own view does not really matter, too. As one's view does not alter facts, an american claiming himself to be German or Australian just would not make him one, would it? MythSearcher 03:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Whether you care if he was Irish or not is irrelevent (and demonstrably untrue given the time you put into dismissing it), Lewis identified himself as Irish and that does matter, for two reasons.

1. Being an Irishman in England was an issue for Lewis and must be included in the article in order to provide a complete picture of the man.

2. By your logic, there were no Irish people until 1949, when the Republic was founded. So, all the people who died in the Irish Famine (1845-48) or were forced to emigrate were not Irish at all.

Citizenship is not the issue, identity is. All Irish people born in 1898 were UK citizens whether they liked it or not. Would we say "Winston Churchill was a UK politician who sometimes claimed to be English" or "Dvorak was an Austrian composer who sometimes claimed to be Czech"? (BTW - Lewis was also an Irish citizen from 1922 onward.) - joey1899

Your analogy with Chruchill is faulty. Churchill, IIRC, referred to himself as British at least as often as English. Nor is there any possibility of confusion - all English, Scots and Welsh are British (assuming we're talking about the last few hundred years) and calling someone English implies that they are are a UK citizen. It's perfectly sensible to call youself both English and British depending on context, or simply on how you feel that day. Irish is not the same. Irish is not a subset of British. We need to distinguish those who are citizens of the ROI from those who are not. Otherwise what we say can be misinterpreted, which is bad in an encyclopedia. If Lewis really was a ROI citizen that changes things, but I'd like to see a source for it. I want to renew my suggestion that Anglo-Irish sums the situation up perfectly. We use it for Oscar Wilde and the article describes the situation with accuracy. DJ Clayworth 15:37, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying that there were no Irish people until the ROI was formed in 1949!!??? Ireland was legally a subset of the UK in 1898 - whether the Irish liked it or not, and most did not. That's why the country was called the United Kingdom of Great Britian AND IRELAND.

Citizenship is not the issue, identity is. Like all Irish people at the time, Lewis was both a citizen of the UK and the Irish Republic, but he identified himself as Irish.

The fact that Lewis identified himself as Irish has been sourced and resourced and re-resourced above. As for his Irish citizenship - see Article 2 of the Irish constitution which reads,

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage." - joey1898

First of all, I really don't care about if he was Irish or British, all I care is if the article will be edited and re-edited all the time. Like I said, one's view NEVER changes the fact of what nationality the person is, there is no way I will be American just because I claimed myself to be one. So the logic of "Lewis identified himself as Irish therefore he is Irish" is completely not applicable in this reasoning process. The source of Article 2 is a much more reliable reasoning. However, there is also the countering statement of the UK policy stating the nationality of the people in the country is "British" in the passports. If we look at it this way, both British and Irish have claimed their subjects by law and someone can obviously be both British and Irish. Therefore, I think that it is most NPOV to state that he is "Anglo-Irish" or "English" or "United Kingdom". "English" seems to me the best word of all since it can also refer to his writing as an author uses the language "English". And I hope this editing war settles by both of the British and Irish parties stop insisting on one of the two and a more NPOV term was used in place. Like I said, let the readers decide. MythSearcher 16:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

“English” is the worst possible choice. Being an Irishman in England was an issue for Lewis and he had a chauvinistic attitude toward the English, as his own letters attest. (see references above!)

Feigning indifference is not the same as a NPOV, when the facts line up on one side. Those who say “Lewis is not Irish” base their contention entirely on his being a UK citizen, while ignoring the fact that all Irish people were UK citizens in 1898 when he was born. Those who say “Lewis is Irish” have Lewis’s own words that he was Irish to back them up, can demonstrate that being Irish in England was an issue for Lewis, can prove Lewis was born in Ireland and show that he was also an Irish citizen. - joey1899

Like I said above, and obviously you never read that point because you never comment on it. I was born in Hong Kong and does it make me an American or German or Austrian or Spanish or Turkish only if I claimed to be one? In fact, because when I was born, Hong Kong is under British control, it made me a British. However, somehow the chinese government claim me to be their subjects and say that I am Chinese. Similar situation, am I British or am I Chinese? I do not want to be both but if I can choose, I'd rather be British. However, my view does not alter the fact that I am both and I cannot change it. And from my view point, it seems like you are the only one claiming him to be Irish without looking at actual political references but by pure POV from what Lewis wanted to be(which really is not a good reference source of what one's nationality is). I have not the slightest idea of what Lewis is before I read this article and the discussion, and justifies as a reader, if you cannot convince me, then it is clear that it is even harder to convince others who can pull up political references and such. The NPOV template was used because it is clear that the debate had became something that is not even just an issue of Lewis, but "Are Northern Irelanders Irish or British". Remember, Lewis' POV might not be neutral either, this should always be taken into account. MythSearcher 03:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

And obvious enough, one does not try to reply to the question I asked before editing the passage. I hope this will be a more civlized discussion other than stating what Lewis "wants to be" but what he "is". Otherwise, it seems indifferent to me that, the British tried to label all goods as British and the Irish are doing the same. From all the facts from the political and constitutional reasoning, what I see is that Lewis is indeed both British and Irish, yet he did joined the British army (not against his own will), and the only counter argument is that he claims himself to be Irish. Why couldn't he be both? There must be a word more appropiate to show that he is both British and Irish. MythSearcher 15:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

During Lewis’s life, even the U.K. government recognized that U.K. citizenship in no way diminished one’s Irish identity and distinguished its Irish citizens from the rest. For example, the Irish were excluded from the draft during WWI. Even though Lewis was resident in England at the time, he was not drafted because he was Irish (Collected Letters Vol. I pg. 205). He later volunteered, as tens of thousands of Irishmen did, who often served in separate units such as the Irish Rifle Battalion (Collected Letters Vol. I pg. 519). And, of course, even the name of the U.K. at the time makes the distinction (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland).

So here’s the situation,

1. The U.K. government identified Lewis as Irish.

2. The Irish government identified Lewis as Irish.

3. Lewis identified himself as Irish.

All these are documented facts. But you contend that Lewis is not Irish and insist on having the final word and claim that your opinion (unsubstantiated by any facts) is the NPOV. - joey 1899

My point is that Irish could be taken two ways - to mean a citizen of the ROI or to mean 'of Irish descent'. We should find a wording (if possible) that makes it clear which one we mean. Yes, obviously 'English' is just plain wrong. However it is possible to be both British and Irish - the one by citizenship and the one by ethnicity or descent. It is even possible to be proud of being both, just like you can be proud of being both English and British. There is, fortunately, one way of stating this that sums the situation up exactly and reduces hugely the possibility of misinterpretation. It is Anglo-Irish. DJ Clayworth 15:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, is there any backup to the statement that Lewis was a citizen of the ROI? DJ Clayworth 16:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

DJ - The proof that he was also an Irish citizen is Article 2 of the Irish constitution itself, quoted above. In 1997, the British and Irish governments reached an agreement that the Irish would soften their claims to sovereignty in Northern Ireland, but keep in place their extention of citizenship to everyone born on "the island of Ireland". (I think there is also an issue with pregnant illegal EU immigrants going to the ROI and Northern Ireland to have their children be born Irish - i.e. EU - citizens.)

I think that there should be a section added called "Later Life", that discusses how strongly Lewis supported the British war effort in WWII, as he did in WWI, as well as the anger he expressed that the Irish Free State and (at first) America did not join in. I have just added the section "My Irish Life", and haven't yet gotten to "Later Life", but I intend to - or perhaps you could.

I also think the fact that Lewis was an Irish Protestant needs to be brought out in the article. Many of his friends were English Catholics who expected him to convert, which he never did. Lewis's paradoxical views of Catholicism are, I think, rooted in his Ulster background. When I have the time I will also add a bit about that - or perhaps you could do that as well.

The first sentence of the article does also say that he was from a staunch Protestant Belfast family and was mostly resident in England.

The problem with "Anglo-Irish" is that it expresses a particular literary tradition of which Lewis was not really a part. And, Lewis described himself as "Irish", not "Anglo-Irish". - joey1899

Mythsearcher - Citizenship status is not the final arbiter; the individual’s own self-identification is.

After all, Beethoven is listed as German, although there was no Germany during his lifetime. Dvorak is listed as Czech, although he was born into the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Thomas Mann is listed as German, although he became an American citizen. Leonardo Da Vinci is listed as Italian, although there was no country of Italy during his lifetime. Jonathan Edwards is American although he was born and died a British subject.

Why don’t you go ‘fix’ those articles? And when you’re finished, I’ll give you a few thousand more and then you can start on World Book Encyclopedia, Britannica, etc., etc.

The standard convention is that when an article describes someone’s nationality, it is not principally talking about citizenship. - joey1899

register an account, or remember to sign.

and yes, you are starting to convince me now once you state more facts. There are facts like "The U.K. government identified Lewis as Irish." and about the "excluded from the draft during WWI." are things that readers do not know before the recent edit. However, I still suggest the point that he identified himself as Irish should not be mentioned in an argument of if he is Irish or not.

However, I still say that he is both because it is just a geological term to discribe someone from the British Isles and born in U.K.

From British#Modern_use_of_the_term_'British', I can somehow understand that some Irish people feel offended when called British, because there are a lot of people in Hong Kong will be offended if called British or vice versa, be offended if called Chinese. But since wikipedia is NPOV, the term British and Irish should not carry any insults other than the facts of political, constitutional, geological and biological reasoning. MythSearcher 16:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Citizenship When a country extends citizenship to a whole group of people who were not previously citizens it is normal that they have to make some sort of application for citizenship. Or are you telling me that Ian Paisley is a citizen of the ROI? I think he would be very upset about that.

Anglo-Irish. If you read the article the term does not imply membership of some sort of literary tradition. It's a term used to mean a particular kind of Irish person, i.e. of English descent and generally Protestant. Which seems to sum up Lewis' case exactly.

DJ Clayworth 18:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

New title for easier discussion

Okay, if the term Irish have to be used before a term better came up, at least it should be linked to the right page. I have edited that and hope this edit war will be ended by now. (unless some vandalizer came up like earlier. BTW, could the term be something like "Irish/British"? MythSearcher 17:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually there is exactly such a term and it's Anglo-Irish. We use it in similar cases such as Oscar Wilde. DJ Clayworth 18:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the folks in Northern Ireland became Irish citizens at exactly the same time and in exactly the same way that the folks in the Republic did. The Free State (1922-1937) and Eire (1937-1949) and the ROI claimed sovereignty over the entire "island of Ireland". Ian Paisley, I'm sure, would be very upset about it, but anyone from Northern Ireland has dual citizenship and can obtain an Irish passport in exactly the same way as someone born in the Republic of Ireland - even Irish-Americans (and Irish-Canadians and Irish-Australians, etc.) often have dual citizenship without even knowing it.

Wilde was largely of Dutch descent and Lewis of Irish, Welsh and French descent. (This is not the 1920s where bloodlines and eugenics were all the rage.) Anglo-Irish is principally a literary tradition and the Anglo-Irish article should be amended to reflect that. As a group, the Anglo-Irish are associated with the Dublin area (the "Pale"); Scotch-Irish is sometimes used to describe the Ulster Protestants, not Anglo-Irish. But both are politically charged terms; Lewis was consciously apolitical in regard to Irish - his Irishness was cultural. Besides, Lewis was aware of the terms "Anglo-Irish" and "Scotch-Irish" but chose simply "Irish". Joey1898 20:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Allegory in Chronicles of Narnia

Lewis himself may have used the term allegory very narrowly and not considered the Chronicles to be allegory, but just how are they not allegory in the normal sense of the term? --Blainster 18:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Lewis had a hypertechnical idea of allegory, in which each character was a one to one symbol for something else. I believe that he used the example of The Pilgrim's Progress, where one character is sloth and another greed, etc.

In Narnia, many, but not all, of the characters are representative of some actual person (or being), Aslan is Jesus, the Emperor Beyond the Sea is God the Father, the White Witch is the devil, Father Christmas is John the Baptist, etc.

I believe that according to our common usage today, the Narnia books are allegories. But I'm a little unsure of the matter myself. Joey1898 15:25, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

As a professor of literature I think we can take Lewis' word for it about whether the books are allegories. However I would agree that common usage would probably class them as at least semi-allegorical. DJ Clayworth 15:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any citations of the "strong Christian messages" in Narnia? (unsigned)

Er, there's this lion. Called Aslan. He is the son of the 'Emperor Beyond the Sea'. He created Narnia, then laid down his life for the sins of one of the children, then rose to life three days later. Did you need more cites than that? DJ Clayworth 15:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

DJ, not to quibble with your main point (I think LWW is a fair match with the definition of allegory), but Aslan was not raised three days later...Susan and Lucy wait but a few hours until dawn for his resurrection. And I think we might profitably discuss whether a book can contain allegorical characters without being "allegory". After all, I think any attempt to give allegorical meaning to more characters than Aslan, the White Witch, and perhaps Edmund will be difficult. Are two or three allegorical characters enough to make that book allegory? And can we distinguish between LWW being allegory, and the entire Chronicles being allegory? Jwrosenzweig 06:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Totally agree, but the poster asked about the 'strong Christian messages'. Actually I now suspect the user was either genuinely ignorant about Christianity or a troll; in either case I now regret the sarcasm. DJ Clayworth 14:52, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Aslan is Jesus, edumand is Jedas, Emperor Beyond the Sea is a largley ignored God the Father, the White Witch is *not* the devil, but is a fill in villian with the powers of temptation. After that it gets confusing. Lucy is his neice and a representative of innosense, Mr. Tummus is a silly faun, theres griffons and wolves and the list grows. According to common interpretation, Lewis used Narnia to talk about "Christian Ideas and Themes" and similar principles. Some of them are uniquely his own understanding of Christianity, not merely fanciful regurgitations of the Bible. Themes of good and evil are a stabple of fantasy fiction, so I think its incorrect to call the entirety of any of the books (with the possible exception of 'The Last Battle') allegorical, merely because they contain allegory. Not sure if that makes sense.--Tznkai 14:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

For one, SparkNotes states that Aslan is a allegorical representation of Jesus [3]. Also there is a recently published letter where C.S. Lewis states that "The whole Narnian story is about Christ" [4]. Also The Magician's Nephew closely parallels Biblical creation (7 hours, garden with the forbidden fruit, sons of Adam, daughters of Eve) and The Last Battle parallels Revelation (rapture, etc). --Bakkster Man 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this is some of the point. Edmund is NOT Judas, for example, because Judas kills himself and Edmund is redeemed by Aslan's death. DJ Clayworth 14:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point--Tznkai 15:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I think for this article we don't need to decide whether Narnia is allegory or not. What we have right now seems to sum them up well without using the word. On the more detailed articles maybe we could go into the discussion in more depth. DJ Clayworth 14:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

We struggled with the same problem on The Chronicles of Narnia article. It might be worthwhile to look at the Christian parallels section of that article. Based on the information there, the paragraph in question could be rewritten like this:

His most famous work, The Chronicles of Narnia, contains many strong Christian parallels. Lewis, an expert on allegory, did not consider them allegorical. He used the phrase "suppositional" to describe them and said they were an answer to the question, "What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?" For additional information see The Chronicles of Narnia.

This isn't very different from what is there now, but quotes Lewis' views on the topic. Lsommerer 16:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Till We Have Faces

Should TWHF really be listed as a "non-Christian" book? It's not overtly Christian, but the Theophany at the end is pretty clearly the Christian God. Joey1898 14:43, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

T. S. Eliot

Did Lewis actually know T. S. Eliot in 1931? I thought that they met much later. Maybe it should say something like "Encouraged by reading T. S. Eliot and G. K. Chesterton, and speaking to J.R.R. Tolkien, Lewis returned to Christianity . . ." Joey1898 15:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that Lewis knew neither Chesterton nor Eliot personally at the time of his conversion. There is no mention of them in Surprised by Joy. DJ Clayworth 17:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they had lunch together/met for the first time later. They had corresponded first over CSL's writings that went into The Personal Heresy, and CSL had disliked TSE since he came on the poetry scene in the teens. CSL's earliest correspondence to TSE was actually some "fake" modernist poetry by made-up authors CSL sent to TSE at the Dial. It would seem Eliot's writings had little to do with CSL's conversion, since Eliot's representation as Mr. Angular in A Pilgrim's Regress is rather negative, as is CSL's much later construal in A Preface to Paradise Lost of Eliot's expression of Christianity. Dan Knauss

Listen to article

I appreciate the audio-article, but shouldn't it be at the end like in other articles? I didn't want to change it until I got some feedback. Joey1898