Talk:Canada

Notice: This overview article is already too long. It is not intended to discuss all issues related to Canada, but serve only as an introduction. Before you add material to this article, please consider adding it instead to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, e.g., Politics of Canada, Geography of Canada, etc. Thank you.

Archives: Archive 1 ~ Archive 2 ~ Archive 3 ~ Archive 4 ~ Archive 5 ~ Archive 6 ~ Archive 7

Discussion of Canada's official name: Canada's name ~ Official Name 1

Provinces and Territories - with map - needs to come earlier in article

People who do not already know place names - especially not whether they refer to a city, province, or region - will find many sections of the article mysterious -- particularly the geography section -- unless the section on Provinces and territories (with the map) is moved up. I've done this twice before, but it keeps getting "revised" over time --JimWae 22:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a potential argument for any country. The proposed ordering might be inconsistent with the section order indicated in the WikiProject Country article template – actually, the 'Geography and climate' section should be moved down below the 'Province and territories' section to conform to that (and would thereby move the P&t section up one). I see no pressing reason to buck the standard (and would instead advocate for that order); however, this isn't a clincher for me and I'll gladly defer to a consensus regarding this. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, "subdivisions" comes BEFORE geography in the template-- thanks for pointing that out -- JimWae 22:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Your welcome. If I recall correctly, the provinces/territories table was previously included right AFTER an 'Overview' section (and essentially before anything else) with the remaining section in its current spot; this is somewhat inconsistent with the template. Indeed, there are many ways to skin a cat – by analogy, Australia is different yet again, with details in the appropriate subarticle. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

New Government, new agenda

the Canadian government currently supports universal health care, same-sex marriage, and decriminalization of marijuana. All of these issues are of varying contention amongst Canadians.

Should the above be revised or deleted now that there's a new (conservative) government in power? We know that they're opposed to same-sex marriage, and are luke warm at best to the idea of decriminalizing marijuana. 207.6.31.119 22:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Done and done. ♠ SG →Talk 20:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Language

I have inserted what? into the sentence describing the special Irish connection to Newfoundland. There is something missing, but I don't know what it is. Someone knowledgable, please correct :-)

Hi, I've recovered, replaced and slightly reworded the missing information you were looking for. Ciao! Pinkville 19:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Cite the sources, make Canada a Featured Article!

As per the peer review of this article, as well as simply taking a look at the article itself, it's clear we need citations or references for many parts of the text. I'm asking you, my fellow Wikipedians, to help each other find proper sources for the statements made in this article. If there's no possible citation, rephrase or remove it please. If you're sure there is a possible source out there somewhere, but you can't/won't find it yourself, add the temporarily. If no one can find a source after a while, rephrase/remove.

We also need to reduce the number of one-sentence paragraphs. Once again, rephrase or remove them if possible. Move these sentences into other paragraphs or add information to make it longer. Thanks! Hopefully we can turn Canada into a featured article by the end of the month! ♠ SG →Talk 21:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Canada depends on the USA for security

From the article introduction: Its diversified economy relies heavily on an abundance of natural resources and trade, particularly with the United States, on which Canada arguably depends for its security and with which it has had a long and complex relationship.

At best, this is "arguable", as the statement currently says. And although Canada's relationship with the US is very relevant and belongs in the intro, the military aspect of it is not nearly as important as the economic and cultural aspects. So I would say that even at best, this part of the sentence does not belong in the intro.

At worst, the statement is purposefully inflammatory. My opinion is that, for any meaningful interpretation of the statement, it is false. What threats are facing Canada, against which it depends upon the United States for security?

If there are no objections or other suggestions over the next day or so, I'll remove this statement from the sentence. --thirty-seven 08:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've changed this sentence in the article. --thirty-seven 01:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Whoa! Agreed! Much better. Pinkville 01:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Largest cities

Previously and currently, I've decided to nix the section regarding largest cities (recently re-added) for numerous reasons:

• (1) The section was placed somewhat illogically, at least to me, between 'Language' and 'Aboriginal peoples'; if anything, it should be a subsection in 'Demographics' or 'Geography and climate'. The prior placement would also be inconsistent with that presented in the country article template.
• (2) Arguably, the in-text descriptions (e.g., "nearly world-class cities") are rather subjective and require refinement.
• (3) Importantly, insinuating this level of excessive detail (also noted above) is unnecessary for a main article: there are a number of subarticles, appropriately wikilinked, with this information. This article is already much longer than recommended; by analogy, the US article is twice as large as recommended precisely because it contains everything with the kitchen sink ... which is also evident in the section order.

Perhaps this is better dealt with in a succinct single sentence in the 'Demographics' section where urban areas are already treated, which I've done. However, unless there's a groundswell supporting the inclusion of this table and related information, I see no reason to retain these atomic details in their current form. Thoughts? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 11:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Great edit, Anthony! I think the single sentence conveys the right amount of information for an overly-long summary article like this one. Ground Zero | t 13:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• • TY! That being said, the wikifying of terms in that sentence may not be ideal as of yet (e.g., city, urban area, metro area, Toronto vis-a-vis GTA, etc.) and could undergo some tweaking/wordsmithing, but you get the idea. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 16:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Regardless, the article lacks information on cities, particularily the fact that it doesn't even have a photo of it's arguably most important city: Toronto. The extra largest cities section was fairly brief, just enough to give room for photos.
  • Your first point merits that the section be moved, not removed.
  • Your second comment means that the wording should have been changed, not deleted.
  • Your third argument is rather strange. A small addition of only ten cities is excessive? The recommended size is exactly what it is, a recommendation. We aren't writing about the history of pancakes here; a country's article will obviously be much longer than your run-of-the-mill Wikipedia page.
  As I was writing this next point, I started to stray off-topic and decided "the hell with it." I'm going to list the problems this article has with photos. United States is, in my opinion, excellent, because of the fact that it has many photos which complement the article perfectly. Take a look at the photos on Canada again.
  1. We've got a bunch photos of politicians.
  2. A rather poor photo of Parliament Hill.
  3. Another bland photo of the SCC.
  4. A large badge of the Canadian Forces, which, if made smaller, would give room for a photo of another CF-related photo.
  5. A good photo of Dawson City in the Provinces section is out of place. More of a history photo if you ask me.
  6. Demographics has room for a small photo.
  7. The photo of downtown Montreal in the Language section is way too long.
  8. The Wayne Gretzky picture is of poor quality and could be replaced by a better free license sports photo.
  The extra section not only skimmed on the topic of Canada's cities, but it gave room for city photos, which, as you can see from above, are not well-shown. That can't possibly be too ridiculous of an idea. Anyways, I have a job to get to, so I'm not going to bother making large additions to an article if someone feels they can simply remove it as they wish. ♠ SG →Talk 20:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

If every Wikipedian decides to make "small addition(s)" (as is, arguably, the case with the current article, which is in need of improvements as both you and I have suggested), the article loses its utility as an overview. Should we also include a listing of the country's largest companies (given the importance of private sector investment in the economy) or, in the current zeitgeist, expand on the recent federal election and aftermath? No – there are a plethora of subarticles that, effectively wikified, better treat this information. There's no fundamental reason why this or any country article needs to be longer than others. If we want to recall "pancakes", does one rehash everything about them or provide a link to the Wp article about them? The same is true here – there are numerous lists of Canadian cities (proper and agglomerated) in Wp, as listed in the 'Demographics' sxn – and little of your commentary acknowledges that. IMO the cumbersome section/table added little value to the article, and the sentence I added fulfills essentially the same function (and was at least acknowledged as such). Hell, let's be bold and create an integrated article about Cities in Canada or Urbanization in Canada and then link to it from this article.

I'm truly sorry that you feel as you do; as for my points above, all three of them merit a reminder of one of the notations below the edit page: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly ... do not submit it." I can be compelled otherwise, but haven't been yet. Yes, we are not talking about pancakes ... but we needn't drown in syrup to appreciate them. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 06:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Plural of "Referendum" to use in section on Quebec seperatist movement

In the English language, "Referendums" is at least as acceptable as "Referenda". Furthermore, according to the BBC's experts, in Latin there were two distinct meanings for the word "referendum". One, meaning the process of carrying out the vote, had no plural in Latin. The second meaning meant the actual question on the ballot, which had the plural "referenda". Since it is the first meaning that corresponds to the modern English word, it makes sense to use the English form of the plural, especially since there was (apparently) no Latin form. See this post: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.english.usage/browse_frm/thread/7d225afa979689f6/9f28a6029519c29f?q=referendums+referenda+plural&rnum=1#9f28a6029519c29f.

GDP

Are you sure that this GDP estimate is correct at 1318 billion? State your references. This would put canada's per capita PPP at a higher level if correct. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.80.25.37 (talk • contribs) .

You should probably use the cia factbook as a general economic reference, regardless of it's accuracy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.80.25.37 (talk • contribs) .

I to am quite concerned about the GDP given, considering that this peculiar reference page is used extensively when conducting research.--Vancouver123 03:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Why do you still have the 2005 estimate on, it's 2006 buddy! --24.81.6.211 02:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Has the 2006 estimate been created? You're welcome to add it then. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Question

Can anyone explain how and why Canadian airports got stuck with the Y prefix? Steelium 3:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

In Canada and most of the United States, an airport's IATA code is the same as the last three letters of the ICAO airport code. So, since almost all Canadian airports happen to have ICAO codes beginning with CY, the IATA code just drops the C. (Technically Canada has the whole letter C at its disposal, but the convention was basically established as CY — I believe to minimize conflict with Canadian television and radio call signs, but I'm not absolutely sure of that.) Bearcat 04:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Map problem

The big map in the "Provinces and territories" section of this article, Image:CanadaMap1.jpg, is a fair use image, which means that Wikipedia does not control the rights to it and is thus severely limited in our use of it (and thus our use of this article, for example in a possible print version). Would one of the editors watching this page be willing to create a map, perhaps using one of the maps at Wikipedia:Blank maps, that could serve in its stead? There's really no reason for us to be using a fair use image to convey information of this type. When a new one is created, let me know and I'll replace all of this links to the current one and delete it. Thanks. Chick Bowen 18:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

You might also edit from this one or this one or perhaps even this one. Thanks again. Chick Bowen 18:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

There's also this one which is a cropped version of the CIA fact book one (which I find is too wide. -- Jeff3000 04:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Image:Canada provinces english.png looks like a perfect replacement. Shall we just replace the existing image link with that one? I don't think it needs any editing as it's already clearer than the existing "fair use" image. — Saxifrage ✎ 11:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

We should probably have more detailed maps (with adjacent territories) in this main article and the Geography of Canada articles, but simpler ones (like above) elsewhere. I'll work on a more detailed, but simpler, replacement for this political map. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

To that end, I've updated this map to start, based on one above with tweaks. Enjoy, and more to follow! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that image, is that it doesn't show the surrounding countries. Given that those surrounding countries give a perspective to Canada I think it's necessary. -- Jeff3000 15:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I know; didn't I say that? :) I haven't changed the maps in the two articles mentioned above because of that, and I've only included my brainchild (an initial stab) in articles where depicting adjacent territories is not necessarily important (e.g., Provinces and territories of Canada, List of regions of Canada). I'm working on one that is more detailed and shows adjacent territories ... I'll have it ready in soon. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Monarchy in Canada

I removed a paragraph from this section, as the section was already too long, and that information is not fully relevent to the Canada of now. It should go in a sub-article. -- Jeff3000 04:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Shortening

Would anyone be against me shortening the article in some parts including the Monarchy of Canada. If we ever want this article to reach feature article status, we need to cut things out. -- Jeff3000 15:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for pruning. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Me too. HistoryBA 16:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've gone and shortened the article a bit. Before I do more, please check the removals and bring anything back that you think I took out that I shouldn't. -- Jeff3000 17:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Since no one has commented I've cut down the provinces and territories section which had too much info about the government structure of the provinces, that info is now in Provinces and territories of Canada -- Jeff3000 11:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Good job, Jeff. I'm with Anthony and HBA. This article needs regular cutting back. Ground Zero | t 12:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Ditto: if only I had the will/time. Keep it up!  :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 14:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

That should be keep it down! :-) Good work! Luigizanasi 15:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Four more sections done (even though I couldn't cut down the Geography and Climate section much). A couple sections to shorten at the bottom of the article, and then back up to History. -- Jeff3000 18:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

User 68.110.9.62

I took out an edito by User:68.110.9.62 earlier today, but he has added some indecency to my talk page [1]. If he adds more material as so, can someone else please revert his edits so it looks like I'm not being heavy handed. -- Jeff3000 03:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Making this article better

Now that I've shortened most of the sections there are signficant things that need to be done to make this a featured article. I've read much of the discussion above, and I'll note what has been commented above that I really think we need to focus on:

First of all, great work on pruning! As well, I'll comment as needed below for expediency: E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

1. References: This article is very very weak on references. Need some

   Agreed. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

2. Images: As noted above, too many people, not enough pictures that show what Canada really is. Canada is more than it's current leaders.

   Agreed. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

3. Holidays: Do we need this section?

   This is indicated in the Country wikiproject, so a consensus is arguably already in place. While it is not essential to include it, IMO, it is brief enough that removing it wouldn't really serve much purpose. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

4. Cities: I think we need a section that lists the major cities.

   As indicated above, I disagree with this (or at least the prior table): this is fulfilled by the current 'Demographics' section/statement, with multiple links to numerous lists, and listed capitals in the province/territory table. As well many other country articles, far more urbanized – like Australia – do not possess atomic details regarding cities nor is it noted at the wikiproject. While this is perhaps begging for a standard, I do not see a need for it if the wikinlinks (as for other topics) generally suffice. Perhaps a subarticle, Cities in Canada or Urbanization in Canada, should be contemplated instead. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

My recommendations to fix the above

1. For the references we can divide the sections and each one of us can find references for our assigned section.
2. For the images, make a listing of them here, and we can determine which ones are necessary, and which ones should be ditched, and possibly note new ones.
3. Holidays: First try to build consensus, and then vote
4. Cities: First try to build consensus, and then vote

-- Jeff3000 04:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

See above. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Auschwitz disambiguation

User Jcuk has twice recently added a disambiguation note to the top of the article about the section of the Auschwitz death camp nicknamed Canada. I removed it again. This definitely should not be a disambiguation statement at the top of the page. 99.9% of people looking for "Canada" are looking for information on the country. Anyone who knows that a part of Auschwitz was nicknamed "Canada" would know to look in the Auschwitz article. Since this has been twice added and twice reverted in rapid succession, I suggest that any further changes about this be discussed here before they are made in the article. --thirty-seven 10:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree: the Canada (disambiguation) has been nominated for deletion; I suggest additional feedback take place there. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 10:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Given many recent additions to the Canada (disambiguation), which is no longer the pathetic dab it once was (thank you User:Mindmatrix!), I've re-added this to the article. It can stand for some pruning, but please discuss before removing it as before. Thanks. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree -- the new disambiguation page is much better, and certainly a big improvement over just specifically listing the Auschwitz reference at the top of this article. Personally, I still would prefer not to have the disambiguation at the top of this article, but there seems to be a consensus that the new disambiguation page is very good and belongs here, so I'm fine with that. --thirty-seven 19:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Great. I think the current dab, particularly with notations of predecessor jurisdictions called Canada in one way or another, now requires such a hatnote. Take a glance at a number of country articles, like Japan, and you'll note that it is somewhat common and the current hatnote is as simple as can be. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 21:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

References

I'm creating a list with the different sections that we need references for. Please sign your name beside it indicating that you are willing to take it up. I've started it out. -- 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Canada's name E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC) done! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• History Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 00:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Monarch -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Governor General – Jeff3000 05:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC) (see new references section below)
• Executive branch – Jeff3000 05:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Legislative branch – Jeff3000 05:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Federal political parties – Jeff3000 04:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Judicial branch – Jeff3000 05:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC) - done -- Jeff3000 16:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Foreign relations – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Military – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Provinces and territories – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Geography and climate – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC) done! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Economy
• Demographics (including religion and aboriginal peoples) – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC) done! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
• Language – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• Culture
• Sports – Jeff3000 02:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC) – done -- Jeff3000 17:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
• National symbols
• Holidays – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC) done! (through Almanac) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Oh: I plan on collecting references in the next week and some. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks Anthony for all your hard work, plus I've found a book that I think covers all the things I signed up for just now. I just need to go through it to be sure, hopefully by tomorrow night, and then we'll be well on our way to having these references done. -- Jeff3000 05:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
      • NP ... ditto! It'll take me some days to round out everything (and to double check some facts), but this is a worthwhile undertaking. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Images

Let's see if we can decide on which images to keep and which ones to replace and with what. Please comment below about each image, and what new images we'd like to see. -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• History
  • Image:Death-wolfe.jpg Plains of Abraham

    Keep - Good Photo -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Important moment in Canadian history --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – germane. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - though it would be better in my opinion if perhaps an image of the battle itself were included insteadsay1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Image:Johnamacdonald1870.jpg John Macdonald

    Keep - Not bad -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - First PM important --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    weak keep – though germane, this is covered off with 'Canadian bills' picture in 'Economy'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Delete- perhaps one of the less attractive looking people on the page

    keep - Cant think of a better person to include for historical reasons say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Image:Canadian Red Ensign.svg

    Remove - Not that imporantatn -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove -- HistoryBA 23:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove - Not hugely relevant --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    remove – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove. This belongs in a separate article. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep- Good image to show the stage of British colony

    Keep -- variations of this were used as the country's flag for 50 years or so. Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• Government
  • Image:Canada Parliament2.jpg Parliament Hill

    Replace - Parliament Hill is the right idea, but need a better photo -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep -- HistoryBA 23:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Though open to idea of replacement with a better image --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep, or replace – with better picture; perhaps with one of all of Parliament Hill and or central Ottawa vista? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace. shot needs to be taken from closer to the building. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace- agree with above

    Replace - something just looks off to me when I see that picture.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Monarch
  • Image:Queen of canada wob.jpg Queen Elizabeth

    Remove - Not that important in the general in Canada -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove -- HistoryBA 23:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - If images of other occupants of offices to be kept, Queen should be there as well. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – germane (as with GG and PM below), but also on the $20 bill image in 'Economy'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep per Gbambino

    Keep -- Oh for heavens' sake, she is our head of state, even if just as a figurehead. How can the article not have the head of state in it? Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

    move or keep - I think this section needs either this picture or the one of Jean removed and this one could probably be integrated elsewhere in the article, while I could only see Jean's picture removed. Just think there needs to be more space in this section.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Governor General
  • Image:JeanSmile.jpg Michaelle Jean

    Undecided - Face of external affairs, but in grand scheme of things not important in day to day activites -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Same reason as above and below. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – I see no reason to nix pictures for current leaders. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep- per Gbambino Astrotrain 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep -- Exercises powers of the head of state -- important even if largely ceremonial. Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

    Undecided see comments above about picture of queen.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Executive branch
  • Image:Harpes.jpg Steven Harper

    Replace - A specific prime mininster doesn't define Canada, nor the office. I don't know what would be better though -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Current occupant of the office should be illustrated. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – as with GG. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep

    Keep per Gbambino Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

    keep no reason not to say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Judicial branch
  • Image:Supreme Court of Canada.jpg Supreme Court of Canada

    Keep - Good photo -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Ditto --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace, perhaps with a photo of an interior area. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Comment: perhaps with one depicting the bilingual sign out front? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Delete- not important Astrotrain 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep -- Supreme Court of Canada is very important in the running of the country. Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

    Keep unless a better picture perhaps an interior (as stated above) is used to replace it.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Foreign Relations
  • Image:Lesterbpearson.PNG Lester Pearson

    Undecided - Would like to replace with something more familiar, but can't think of a good one. US article has Statue of Liberty -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace - With a picture of Peacekeepers? --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep -- Only Canadian to win a Nobel Peace Prize, inventor of peacekeeping, one of the most important Canadians in history

    weak keep, or replace – with image of UN peacekeeping operation somewhere, which would cover off on 'Military' picture too. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Delete- unknown outside Canada Astrotrain 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Delete -- Being unknown outside of Canada is not a good reason, but Pearson does not really represent current foreign affairs, nor is foreign affairs the only thing he represents. Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• Military
  • Image:Canadian Forces emblem.svg Canadian Forces Emblem

    Replace - With an piece of equipement or some army personel -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Symbol of the institution works --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace, or delete – consolidate with UN peacekeeping picture in 'Foreign relations'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace - per Jeff3000. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep Astrotrain 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    It has be changed but I hate the current one as little can be seen, there must be a better picture somewhere.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Provinces and territories
  • Image:Map_Canada_political.jpg |Political Subdivision map

    Keep - Very good map -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Agree with Jeff3000 --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep Astrotrain 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    how could we not?say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Geography and climate
  • Image:Canada-satellite.jpg Satelite Photo

    Keep - Proximity to other map is a problem thogh -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace - Too similar to map. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    strong keep – germane: this is the geography sxn, which entails more than just geopolitical boundaries and is dissimilar from the map. Similar images appear in various other territorial/country articles and, given the country's size, it and the caption provides a brief overview of the country's diverse physiogeography. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Image:MountLogan.jpg Mount Logan

    Replace - With forest and water picture-- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace - With something less specific --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep – germane: this is a notable geographic feature not treated in text, and replacing it with a "forest and water" picture would be without purpose. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    'keep - but then, I'm in the Yukon. :-) Luigizanasi 18:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace. The hues are strongly skewed to purple. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Comment: there was another one in place previously, but it was nixed due to sourcing issues. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    keepsay1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Economy
  • Image:Canadian_bills.jpg Canadian money

    Keep - Very good image -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Good illustration. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    strong keep – germane, but more because it fulfills many functions, especially in depicting notable leaders current and prior. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace. though I wouldnt mind it if the big SAMPLE could be removed and perhaps have the bills lined upsay1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Language
  • Image:Montreal-mcgillcollege.jpg Downtown Montreal

    Move - To culture section, doesn't fit in language -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove - Montreal doesn't define Canada's language --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    remove – et seq.; non-descript. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove. Not really needed. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Image:Montreal-Place Vauquelin, Note.jpg Bilingual old map in Quebec

    Replace - Need a more modern sign -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep - Better illustrates bilingualism, though open to idea of replacement with different sign. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace, or weak keep – perhaps replace with something with bilingual sign as per the Federal Identity Program (e.g., Supreme Court picture)? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Maybe replace with a bilingual Stop/Arrêt Sign. Can be taken at any airport. Luigizanasi 18:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace with a sign that you can see the different languages on. SUre you can read it if you click on it, but you should be able to see the difference in thumbnail form.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Culture
  • Image:RCMP2.jpg RCMP

    Delete - move Montreal photo year -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove - Too stereotypical. Don't know of an image that sums up Canadian culture. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace, or remove – With musical ride picture? Perhaps just one picture can hark of this and everything below ('Sports', 'National symbols') ... like another/single hockey picture? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove. I don't know what could be used to replace it. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Keep- a recognisable cultural aspect of Canada to international world. Astrotrain 22:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    replace - there must be a better picture of a mountie, could be one of the musical ride, though mountie is good as a major symbol of canada.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sports
  • Image:CanCup87.jpg Wayne Gretzky

    Replace - Better more modern picture of hockey -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace - Agree more up to date picture could be found. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    keep, or replace – while not ideal, I'm sure such a single picture would be germane for this sxn, 'Culture', and 'National symbols'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Remove -- copyright infringing, no fair use rationale for this article. Jkelly 23:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace -- e.g., with 2006 women's Olympic team. Ground Zero | t 04:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

    move the new one down slightly or to the opposite side of the text (or moving mountie accross would work too.say1988 19:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

• National Symbols
  • Image:Common Loon head sideways.jpg Canadian Loon

    Keep - Can't think of a better one -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Undecided --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    as per Sports

    Replace with a beaver -- HistoryBA 23:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    weak keep, replace, or remove – with the beaver? Perhaps one picture can hark of this and everything above ('Culture', 'National symbols') ... perhaps a hockey picture? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace with maple leaf and/or beaver. Those are official national symbols, not the loon. Luigizanasi 18:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Replace per Luigizanasi, though I like this photograph. Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    Delete- not well recognised to me. Astrotrain 22:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• Would like to see
  • Image of CN Tower -- Jeff3000 22:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Agree Astrotrain 22:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Not sure more images needed, seems to be enough already. --gbambino 23:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems like one picture a sxn works (for the most part). However, consider:
    • some picture depicting UN peacekeeping operations to substitute Pearson ('Foreign relations') and 'military'.
    • a single (hockey?) pic to cover off on 'Culture', 'Sports', and 'National symbols'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 23:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • More landscapes. See United States and Australia. -- Jeff3000 00:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Agreed on more landscapes, Atlantic fishing village (Lunenburg?), Quebec, Ontario, Prairie farm scene, BC mountains, etc. Luigizanasi 18:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm unsure; I think this was in place long ago and it became a matter of 'regional' representation, which might become divisive: the geography of Canada article seems more apt. If this is done here, it would probably be best to somehow consolidate pictures with themes or include memorable art works, e.g., moose in mountains, bison on prairies? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
        • I think it's important to show some landscapes of Canada. Forests and landscapes can in most forms be non-regional. For example the Canadian shield goes through most provinces, and the praries go through three provinces. Also to counter the rural vs the urban we need some photos of some distinguishing parts of urban canada. That's why I'm not in favour of removing the Montreal picture completely. Maybe even a photo of Chinatown in Toronto to show the effect of immigration. -- Jeff3000 21:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
          • I guess my point is this: for this overview article, we should be as judicious with images as you've been/we should all be with text. Pictures are worth a thousand words, but excess of anything is counterproductive. If we can kill two birds with one stone, so much the better. For example, a prairie is a specific vegetation/landform type. However, stereotypes aside, some famous depiction of the Canadian Prairies with grain elevators (harking of Canada's economy and history, or even a painting of same) would be much more appropriate. Similarly, the current Montreal picture is fairly non-descript: something which clearly depicts Mount Royal (note pic), Olympic grounds, or Expo 67 would be much better. Hell, even Cirque du Soleil is an option. And a picture of Vancouver or Toronto or whatever locale (with either skyline or diverse neighbourhood in background) can communicate multiple themes all the same. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 22:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Perhaps a photo of a technology developed in Canada (or an implementation thereof). Mindmatrix 18:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    • The Canadarm? Avro Arrow? BlackBerry? Snowmobile? Frederick Banting/insulin? :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
      • When I wrote my message, I was thinking of the Canadarm! The Avro Arrow is a good choice too, and could be linked to a Canadian political controversies page in some way. Have a look at this or this for other ideas. Mindmatrix 03:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
        • How about a picture of a mountie on a snowmobile being chased by a moose, with a background of a forest of maples, lakes and mountains. That should about cover it. :-) Luigizanasi 07:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
          • I'd try to do that, if we had snowmobiles or snow around Vancouver... ;) --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 07:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
            • Aren't y'all forgetting Betty in tow? Perhaps something like a 'Canuck' Gauguin? Besides: this is nothing that Photoshop can't address. ;) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
              • You mean Lisa Birke. Check this out: [2]. Luigizanasi 17:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
                • Sure ... something like that! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 17:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
          • What! No hockey ? People will be thinking it's an Australian picture! -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
            • Ok we can add kids playing hockey on the forzen lake the mountie is being chased on. Luigizanasi 17:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
              • And what of Joe ... perhaps riding the moose and wearing or using the crown jewels and hockey stick? OK, I'll stop now ... E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 17:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Niagara Falls

Sponsorship Scandal

If you read Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources everything in an article has to be cited with a reliable source. It is not acceptable that a source is somewhere else. The Gomery Report is a reliable source that talks about the sponsorship scandal, and unless you can find some other reliable source, I will be putting it back all the time. This is general Wikipedia policy. Further, instead of spending time removing references from this article, please take some time adding references to this article which is sorely lacking. I would encourage you to sign up for a section.-- Jeff3000 18:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Quote from Wikipedia:Verifiability: "Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." -- Jeff3000 18:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Where does it end? When we have every book on Canada in the reference section? Is there any dispute that there was a sponsorship scandal in Canada? Wikipedia:Cite_sources makes it clear that you need not cite a source where there is no factual dispute. HistoryBA 02:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no dispute, but what do you have against having a reference. Does it hurt us? No, it makes the article stronger. Regardless of if you are conservative or liberal, seperatist or federalist, the report is a neutral fact-filled source that is good. As to where does it end; to be a featured article we must be able to back up what is the article with references. That doesn't mean that every book that mentions Canada has to be in the references, but precisely the opposite, everything in the article must be referenced. As mentioned before, if you can find a better reliable (i.e. published source that won't disappear tomorrow, usually things that have ISBNs) that mentions the sponsorship scandal then go ahead and replace the Gomery report, but I mention again, the Gomery report is fact-filled and probably the best primary source, as others books will reference the Gomery report. -- Jeff3000 03:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the reference one more time. The most important thing against Wikipedia is it's lack of verifiability. The refernce does not hurt the article, and a fact-filled enquiry adds a NPOV and strengthens the article. -- Jeff3000 04:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

What is this reference supposed to be verifying? The only thing the article states is that there was a sponsorship program, and a scandal about it. A scandal is a public artefact that the Gomery Report is part of, so it can hardly contain any text that supports the statement. This reference belongs in sponsorship scandal, not here. Please don't edit war to get your way. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The reference corroborates two things about what is in the article

1. The sponsorship program existed. That is in the article, must be referenced. The Gomery report corroborates that information.
2. That there was a scandal. The scandal is not a public artefact, but something that did occur, by some people siphoning off money that was supposed to go to ad agencies back into their pockets and the liberal party of Canada. That there is a scandal is in the article, and it must be referenced. The Gomery report corroborates that information.

Thus both statements that are in the article are corroborated by the Gomery report. Again I don't understand why you are against having a reference such as the Gomery report. Everything in Wikipedia must be referenced if a reference exists, and I will take this to mediation if you keep removing the citation, which does nothing to hurt the article, but makes it stronger. -- Jeff3000 04:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

You perhaps misunderstand what a citation is. It is a reference to a specific passage of a text that explicitly supports an assertion in an article or paper. The Gomery Report's mere existence does not qualify as a citation, and the assertion in question is not in need of a citation to support it. If you like, this would be appropriate in the External Links section, or perhaps the See Also section. So, your point (1) is unfounded.

Second, check the definition of scandal. It is not the event and actions, it is the public reproach called out against those actions. A scandal is something that exists in the minds of the population; a crime is what you're talking about. Again, there is no dispute that such exists and the assertion that there is/was a scandal and that the scandal was about something does not need to be supported by a credible reference. Thus, your point (2) does not stand.

Lastly, be careful of shooting yourself in the foot: when you mention that an article must be complete according to the Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, you possibly forgot that it also needs to be stable, which means free from edit warring. Also, you should assume good faith and avoid accusing other editors of political agendas (which qualify as personal attacks), especially if you want to bring mediators in and have everyone's conduct scrutinised.

Personally, I don't care if the link is there or not. I do care that all policies and guidelines are respected, not just selected ones. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Verifiability:

"Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." (emphasis added)

So "a bicycle has two wheels", being a fact, requires a reference? — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources." (emphasis added)

"It is this fact-checking process that Wikipedia is not in a position to provide, which is why the no original research and verifiability policies are so important."

Regarding the sponsorship scandal, Wikipedia is publishing the statements, (and here I went to the article to copy-paste something, and found nothing). Amazingly, nothing. The article states that there was a sponsorship program, and directs readers to sponsorship scandal for more information. This article doesn't even say that one existed, let alone any details. How does a non-existent statement require a verifiable source? — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Citing sources:

"To ensure that the content of articles is credible and can be checked by any reader or editor."

"Wikipedia articles should not use other Wikipedia articles as sources. Wikilinks are not a substitute for sources."

"If you add any information to an article, particularly if it's contentious or likely to be challenged, you should supply a source" (emphasis added)

"You can add sources even for material you didn't write if you use a source to verify that material. Adding citations to an article is an excellent way to contribute to Wikipedia"

"When there is no factual dispute: Think ahead: Try to imagine whether people might doubt what you wrote or need more information. Supporting what is written in Wikipedia by referring to a clear and reliable source will add stability to your contribution." (emphasis added)

Do you think that "a sponsorship program existed, see sponsorship scandal for more information" is really a statement that requires one to think ahead to it being disputed? — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding last comments made by Saxifrage

The word citations or references mean different things in different fields. For example, references might mean direct quotes, and bibliography any books you used in writing an article/essay in a humanities course, but bibliography in engineering means any statement you make needs a different reference. Citing in Wikipedia, if you read the Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable Sources and Wikipedia:Citing sources means using citations, sources, and references. The above quotes should make it clear enough, especially the think ahead one.

As I wrote above, there are no facts in this article regarding the sponsorship scandal that could possibly require a verifiable source to back it up. As nothing in the article is referencing the Gomery Report, how can it justifiably be included in the list of referenced sources? — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the word scandal, if you read the Sponsorship Scandal page you will notice that the word scandal is not used at all in terms of what the public thought of it, but instead it is based on the actions of the people. For example quoting from the article "Gomery Commission which has uncovered the details of the scandal".

Words get appropriated, particularly by the media. Furthermore, sponsorship scandal is hardly the OED and is not authoritative as to what the word means. However, this is a tangent and doesn't actually have anything to do with my request for justification of the reference, so it's of no matter. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I, among others, have tried over the past week to make this article better. I really have to thank Anthony as he's the major person who has stepped up in trying to better the article. Instead of trying to remove references which do not hurt the article, I suggest that people chip in, sign up for a section, and find references. -- Jeff3000 05:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not trying to remove references. I am trying to get you to justify a reference. Are you suggesting that the statement "Canada is a country in the north" requires a reference? Your very narrow reading of the policy would require such.

Your hard work is appreciated. However, hard work does not excuse editors from being civil and assuming good faith. If you would read wikipedia:assume good faith as studiously as you have wikipedia:verifiability and wikipedia:cite sources, you'll find that your assumption that I and the other editor who have objected on this matter have nefarious motives to be entirely inappropriate. You can't just pick the rules you like (Verifiability and Cite Sources) and ignore the ones that you don't.

Let me remove the need for assumption. Here is my motive for getting you to solidly justify this reference: in an article that makes no statement deriving from the Gomery Report, a reference to such could easily be seen as superfluous. An astute reader, noticing its listing as a reference without it's actual use as a reference in the body of the article, might well wonder what motivated someone to add it, or at the most generous, simply think that it's unprofessional. As such, if it is not actually used as a reference, including it in the list of references actually makes the article worse and less worthy of Featured Article status.

What do you think this adds to the article? — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Also in regards to the personal attack that Saxifrage states I made, I want to make it clear because you are smearing me by stating that I attacked someone, and I will not stand for that. If you go back and read what I wrote you will note that I did not accuse anyone of a POV. I only stated that the reference only hurts people who have a political POV, and otherwise it's a great NPOV reference. -- Jeff3000

Bringing politics into it at all in a dispute with another editor, over an issue that is politically loaded, is a particularly subtle breed of personal attack. It is uncalled for, and is at the very least incivil. Refrain from commenting on or even suggesting what the motives of other editors might be, and you will not run afoul of that policy. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll be brief in this post, as I think I've proven the usefullness of the reference based on Wikipedia policy. If you disagree, I would ask you to take it up in mediation. And regards the personal attack, I consider your statements a personal attack, insinuating that my motives for a statement was a low-blow. Your statement regarding my statement "Refrain from commenting on or even suggesting what the motives of other editors might be" can be applied as much to yourself because you are bringing up what you think my motive was, which is in fact wrong. So thus your statements are also uncalled for. -- Jeff3000 13:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the policy doesn't work that way. Using the personal attack policy against a critic to silence their validly pointing out a personal attack doesn't work. I have not insinuated what your motives were, and in fact I don't think you actually intended to make it an attack. I am assuming good faith on your part, assuming that you honestly didn't intend anything bad. However, the actual words you wrote, for whatever reason you wrote, were unacceptable and I warned you against doing so and removed the offending text as per policy. Don't shoot the messenger, and please assume that I'm acting in good faith.

If you want to bring in mediation, you've that right and you're welcome to. I have more experience and confidence that I am within both the letter and the spirit of the policy and guidelines. If you're going to though, just do it and stop just waving it around as a threat to make me go away. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

As for you having "proven the usefullness of the reference based on Wikipedia policy", you've not; you've just ignored my points about how it fails to follow policy and in fact possibly makes the article worse. You're also ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is a consensus based encyclopedia, not a proof-based one: you have two people opposed to the edit and no-one supporting your edit, which is hardly a consensus either way. In fact, it is a lack of consensus that calls for continued discussion. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

There are definitely now facts that are in the article that need to be referenced. (1) Sponsorship program existed: for anyone outside Canada this is not common knowlegde and must be cited. (2) Illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed. Again this is a fact and must be brought up. Gomery reports validates both of these. -- Jeff3000 16:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I was asked to comment here. If the Gomery report is being used as a citation for a particular point in the article, it should be referenced as a footnote, an embedded link, or Harvard reference (Gomery 2005) after the sentence or paragraph it is supporting. If it's not being used as an actual reference, but is just some additional reading material, it should be listed in a Further reading section. I see in the article you have References, Notes, and External links sections, which means you have one too many. If you look at WP:CITE, the sections should be References (for material cited if you don't use a footnote system, or Notes (for material cited if you do use a footnote system), and then Further reading (formerly called External links), which should list everything of interest related to the topic but which was not used as an actual reference, whether online or offline.

As for whether mentioning a scandal needs a citation to the Gomery report, I would say it does. The Gomery report was about the scandal. It became part of it because it confirmed there were grounds for the scandal, but its purpose was to report on the scandal, not to become it. It's the best source there is on that issue, and if the issue is mentioned, it's appropriate to cite a source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the expertise SlimVirgin. Yes, I agree that if there's a mention, there should be a reference. It is now mentioned significantly enough to require a reference so I'm satisfied, whereas before only the program was mentioned and the reader was directed to sponsorship scandal with no statements that merited references. I'll leave the style of citation and whether the current wording of the mention is acceptable to other editors. — Saxifrage ✎ 17:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Wording in article

I wish to register my strong objection to the way Jeff3000 had handled this dispute. We were back and forth many times (see above and the edit history on the article) on whether the Gomery report needed to be included in the list of references. He then added more material to the article on the Sponsorship Scandal and argued (see above) that "there are now facts that are in the article that need to be referenced" (without mentioning that he added these facts). It seems to me that he has put the cart before the horse. References are added to back up facts. Facts should not be added to justify a reference -- particularly in an article that is already too long. I would appreciate hearing the opinion of others on this issue. Let's try to come to a consensus here. HistoryBA 17:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Cart and horse order doesn't really matter in this case, since it's the end result of what's in the article that matters. (jeff3000's conduct should be discussed elsewhere if it's necessary, as it's not pertinent to the contents of the article.) What is your opinion of the current wording of the mention of the sponsorship scandal? — Saxifrage ✎ 17:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the wording, the old wording was confusing linking the October crisis to the sponsorship program. The new wording which was only one line longer was more clear (I specifically tried to keep it short, so as to not add stuff to the article). It also, being under the Quebec Sovereignty movement section, needed an explanation as to why it was mentioned; which is that that the sponsorship program (through its illegal activity) has caused an increase in support for Quebec seperatism. The old wording makes it sound like the sponsorship scandal was used to reduce the support for Quebec seperatism, but in fact it has backfired, so to make the text convey what has truly happened, the actual outcome should be mentioned. -- Jeff3000 18:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I notice that HistoryBA has already reverted to the previous wording. Before getting into another edit war about it, I suggest you both discuss here until you have a wording you both can live with. For starters, here are the two versions:

1. "The cornerstone of the ideology for a sovereign Quebec was a strong impetus for the October Crisis and the need to counter Quebec sovereignty through a "sponsorship program" engendered under the administration of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien. See sponsorship scandal for more details."
2. "The cornerstone of the ideology for a sovereign Quebec was a strong impetus for the October Crisis. Under the administration of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien a "sponsorship program" was instituted that rationalized an effort to raise Canadian patriotic sentiments to counter Quebec separatism. Since illicit and even illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed, support for sovereignty in Quebec has increased to 53%. [3]" (note that this version is after I moved the link to sponsorship scandal from the "sponsorship program" text to the "illicit and even illegal activities" text)

I know you both feel justified in reverting, but it's damaging to the stability of the article. If you can reach consensus here on the talk page and then paste that version into the article, everyone wins and the article doesn't suffer. — Saxifrage ✎ 18:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Thank you, Saxifrage. I have only two objections to the second text: (1) "Administration" is an Americanism. Canadian prime ministers don't have administrations, they have governments. (2) I do not believe that you can say the Chretien government "rationalized an effort to raise patriotic sentiments." First, I am not sure the average reader will understand what this means. Second, I don't think this was really the goal. The objective was merely to raise the federal government's profile in Quebec.

Finally, I continue to believe that there is no particular reason to include a reference to the report in this article. No one disputes that there was a sponsorship program and that funds were misused. The only dispute is over responsibility, an issue this article doesn't address. As I have pointed out before, Wikipedia policy does not require the inclusion of references on undisputed facts. Of course, if there is a consensus that the reference is needed, in the spirit of Wikipedia goodwill I will not remove the reference.

Thanks again to Saxifrage for your common-sense solution to this problem. HistoryBA 18:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about this. I removed the administration in favour of government, and changed the second objection (which by the way I took right out of the Sponsorship scandal article).

1. "The cornerstone of the ideology for a sovereign Quebec was a strong impetus for the October Crisis. Under the government of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien a "sponsorship program" was instituted that tried to raise the federal government's profie to counter Quebec separatism. Since illicit and even illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed, support for sovereignty in Quebec has increased to 53%. [4]"

This paragraph removes the objections by HistoryBA, uncouples the October crisis from the sponsorship program, and explains why support for Quebec Sovereignty has increased recently and is only one line longer. Even though no one disputes the material, people who are unfamiliar with the topic need references and as written in Wikipedia:Verifiability "When there is no factual dispute: Think ahead: ... Supporting what is written in Wikipedia by referring to a clear and reliable source will add stability to your contribution." -- Jeff3000 19:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Much better. Regarding the reference, it will be clear from the final wording whether it's needed or not (that wording would require it in my judgement, while the original didn't).

I think "The cornerstone of the ideology for a sovereign Quebec was a strong impetus for the October Crisis" is not great: I can't figure out what cornerstone and what ideology is being referred to from that line, and impetus is just the wrong word for the causal factors of a crisis. — Saxifrage ✎ 19:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, and I think the cite should be added as "program were revealed (Gomery 2005), ..." — Saxifrage ✎ 19:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jeff3000's proposed text (with one amendment: "profie" should read "profile"). As for Saxifrage's comment, I don't think the revelation of the misuse of funds should be credited to Gomery. It was revealed by the media years before Gomery reported. As for the issue of references, I know that Jeff3000 has asked other editors to comment. Why don't we wait to see what they have to say before reaching a decision. As I've said repeatedly, I am happy to honour the consensus, but we don't have one yet. HistoryBA 19:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right Saxifrage, the first sentence regarding the October Crisis is not a good one. How about this change, which moves the October crisis into the first paragraph in the sentence to make things cronological. Further, I've combined the two short paragraphs into one, to work towards reducing the number of short paragraphs in the article which is one suggestion made by the Peer Review:

"The Quebec sovereignty movement, which led to the October Crisis in 1970, has since led to two referendums held in 1980 and 1995, with votes of 59.6% and 50.6% respectively against its proposals for sovereignty-association. In 1997, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled unilateral secession by a province to be unconstitutional. Since then, the question of "national unity" has been raised in federal elections, in particular, the 2004 and 2006 federal elections. Under the government of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien a "sponsorship program" was instituted that tried to raise the federal government's profile to counter Quebec separatism. Since illicit and even illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed, support for sovereignty in Quebec has increased to 53%. [5]" -- Jeff3000 20:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with the first sentence, which links the sovereignty movement too closely with terrorism. Sovereignty does not, in my view, lead to terrorism. I would propose this instead: "The Quebec sovereignty movement has included those who advocated the use of violence, as in the 1970 October Crisis and those who preferred a peaceful separation from Canada. In referendums in 1980 and 1995, 59.6 percent and 50.6 percent of voters rejected proposals for sovereignty-association." HistoryBA 20:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, with those changes, are we ok with this version:

"The Quebec sovereignty movement has included those who advocated the use of violence, as in the 1970 October Crisis and those who preferred a peaceful separation from Canada. In referendums in 1980 and 1995, 59.6 percent and 50.6 percent of voters rejected proposals for sovereignty-association. In 1997, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled unilateral secession by a province to be unconstitutional. Since then, the question of "national unity" has been raised in federal elections, in particular, the 2004 and 2006 federal elections. Under the government of former Prime Minister Jean Chretien a "sponsorship program" was instituted that tried to raise the federal government's profile to counter Quebec separatism. Since illicit and even illegal activities within the administration of the program were revealed, support for sovereignty in Quebec has increased to 53%." -- Jeff3000 21:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. As per SlimVirgin's advice on citations, now we only need to incorporate the Gomery Report citation somehow. I like the Harvard style, but the footnote style might work better to keep the reader from thinking that Gomery himself revealed the mismanagement. The inline link to the reference for the 53% figure needs to be re-included, as well. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to link the text with the Gomery Report directly, which is what the Harvard style does. The references serve to back up the material in the article, and looking through a lot of books there are no specific footnotes, just a reference section. Given the current style of this article, I'm fine with the reference just being in the reference section. If we want to change the style of the article to be more specific where notes are included throughout the article, I would also help towards changing the article style. -- Jeff3000 21:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

New References

I have just added two new references. The first is

• Bickerton, James & Gagnon, Alain-G & Gagnon, Alain (Eds). (2004). Canadian Politics (4th edition ed.). Orchard Park, NY: Broadview Press. ISBN 1551115956. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

and it covers most aspects of Canadian politics and the underlying systems. It is a recent book and covers the merger of the Canadian Alliance with the Progressive Conservatives. More interestingly it covers in depth also the role and value of multiculturism in Canada which I have been struggeling in even knowing where to look for a reference for. Thus it covers any note of multiculturism in the article. What it does not cover well is the role of the Monarchy and the Governor General in Canadian politics. Thus I have also added another reference

• Brooks, Stephen (2000). Canadian Democracy : An Introduction (3rd edition ed.). Don Mills, ON: Oxford University Press Canada. ISBN 0195415035. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)

which gives a better understanding of both the Monarch and the Governor General. There is a 4th edition of this book, but it seems most of that discussion (including charts) has been taken out of the new version, so thus I'm using the 3rd edition as the reference. What is still missing in the Governor General section is the naming of Michaelle Jean as the new GG. -- Jeff3000 16:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Do either of the references in the "Investiture of the 27th governor general" section of the Michaëlle Jean article work for you? — Saxifrage ✎ 16:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, the first one is pretty good. The second one is GlobeAndMail so it needs a subscription. I'm worried that the National Post link will go away after some time, so once a book comes out, maybe as a biography, which seems to always be the case when someone gets a high position, we should use a new reference. -- Jeff3000 16:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

From the Government of Canada Newsroom (which looks like an excellent resource that I found via this link): Address by Prime Minister Paul Martin at the installation of the new Governor General and Appointment of New Governor General. Oddly enough, my search didn't turn up a press release for the actual investiture, only Martin's speech during it and the press release for the appointment. In any case, those links will be more persistent than the National Post article. — Saxifrage ✎ 18:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Great, much better reference. Ok if I replace the current reference (National Post) with this one Appointment of New Governor General. -- Jeff3000 20:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Be my guest! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Images, Part II

I think commenting on the images has completed, and my reading of the decision is as follows.

Keep everything the same except,

• Remove Image:Canadian Red Ensign.svg
• Possibly find better image for the parliament Image:Canada Parliament2.jpg (though I've already cropped the image to make the parliament look bigger.
• Replace Image:Lesterbpearson.PNG
• Replace (by 3 to 2) Image:Canadian Forces emblem.svg with equipment or consolidate with foreign relations
• Replace (again 3 to 2) Image:MountLogan.jpg
• Delete Image:Montreal-mcgillcollege.jpg
• Replace Image:RCMP2.jpg done! replaced with Musical Ride pic performance on Canada Day with flags and Parliament Buildings (Centre Block) in background ... how much more symbolism do you need? :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 07:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
• Replace Image:CanCup87.jpg
• Replace Image:Common Loon head sideways.jpg

From what I see above 6 photos should be replaced, and by the comments I see the following categories that may be added:

• Better symbol of Canada
• Better hockey image
• Peacekeeping picture
• One or two of

• Canadian Prairies with grain elevators
• Mount Royal (note pic)
• Olympic grounds
• Expo 67
• Vancouver or Toronto skyline

• Technology, possibly The Canadarm, Avro Arrow.

Can people check that I haven't analyzed the comments inappropriately, and if I'm wrong, please change the above. Otherwise let's decide on the new images, and more importantly find them, and help take the article one more step towards being a featured article. -- Jeff3000 03:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the hockey picture, there are a couple options

• On the Wikicommons page [6] there are a couple pictures

• [7]
• [8]
• [9]
• [10]
• [11]

There's also this one which is under the GFDL

• Image:The Colts applying pressure at the Battalion net.JPG

While I don't really have a strong preference I like the goal picture [12]. -- Jeff3000 18:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Shouldn't we include images that depict important moments in, yes, hockey history as they relate to Canada ... not just any old shot? To that end, I've uploaded a couple of hockey images that are, perhaps, more germane regarding this:

• Image:Tretiak Cournoyer 1972.jpg
• Image:Esposito Mikhailov 1972.jpg

I tried to find online a screen capture of Paul Henderson's 'famous' winning goal during the Summit Series, but couldn't find one of sufficient quality.

Whatyathink? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Those would be great, if they were not copyrighted. We need a photo that is released under the GFDL, which those from wikimedia are all. Usually that means a photo that someone has taken themselves from the stands and releases it to Wikipedia. -- Jeff3000 14:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. This shouldn't be problematic: both images are clearly indicated as copyrighted (uploaded and tagged as 'promotional photos') with source. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 06:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually no, Wikipedia policy is that copyrighted images, unless in fair use, can be deleted at any time. To see what's accetable look at Wikipedia:Copyright_FAQ#Licenses. Notice how Non-commercial licenses, Educational licenses and Typical commercial licenses are not allowed except for fair use. Fair use states that if no other free image is available to portray the person/event, then Wikipedia can use a copyrighted image, but only in the article that is specific to the event/article. For the images you uploaded, my understanding is that they can be used as fair use only in the Summit Series page. See Wikipedia:Fair use#Images and Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy for more information. I have seen many images deleted because they were not really fair use.

Particularly for featured article status, the images need to be free (as in speech). Look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates where statements like "The images are all claimed as fair use, and appear to be there mostly for decoration," "Plus too many copyrighted images to be reasonable", "uses a large number of fair use images for decorative rather than explanatory purposes", and "Fair use images are well chosen and used sparingly - fair use rationales seem to be good" lead to the images being replaced/removed or the article being rejected for Featured Article Status. We need free/non-copyrighted images in this article for things that are not specific. And as much as I like the Summit Series pictures, hockey in Canada is not specifc enough to warrent their inclusion here, and it will be shot down. -- Jeff3000 13:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Noted -- I shall endeavour to find fair-use images of major events like these for inclusion here, because I feel that non-descript pictures should not be used to exhibit these sorts of things in an overview. Arguably and appropriately, however, many would identify the Summit Series (which implies notions beyond mere hockey (e.g., geopolitics)) as a defining moment of Canadian sport/culture and germane for this article section. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on the above, and assuming that the image isn't used elsewhere, I will place one of these pictures in the article and see what happens. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't think this is wise, the fair use provision is clear, it wouldn't be fair use in this article, but only in the Summit Series page. Let's try to find GFDL and public domain images for this article. -- Jeff3000 13:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Canadian and American politics compared

There is a see also link in the Culture section to Canadian and American politics compared. I'd like to remove this link or at least move it to the Government section. Anyone against the removal? -- Jeff3000 00:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Bold with images

I've just been very bold and changed a whole bunch of images. I'm not totally happy with the result, but since no one has commented above, I felt I could go ahead and make some changes. The changes I have made are as follows

1. Included a view of Toronto, the Canadarm and the Biosphere beside the province table (this was empty space and is being used now)

   Thanks for being bold. I like these three pictures, but feel they are placed inappropriately. Perhaps the CN Tower/Toronto picture can be placed in demographics/economy, Montreal/Expo 67 in culture, and the Canadarm pic in economy (example of high tech/industry w/caption)? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   Images in those sections would cause the text to have less vertical height than the image making the article look empty. -- Jeff3000 18:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   Two points (1) the article might have too many pictures now, or at least they're not organised effectively, and (2) we shouldn't just add them for the sake of it. White space isn't a bad thing (and note that visitors with lower resolution monitors will have little or none of that): adding pictures there that are not relevant to the article section might be. I would not lose sleep if some of these pictures substituted others, but throwing in the kitchen sink is distracting. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 19:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

2. Replaced Lester Pearson and Insignia with a Canadian Forces picture (This is a change I'm not totally happy with as I wish I could find a "peace-keeping picture"
3. Replaced Mount Logan with Prarie Province picture

   Given the replacement of a germane data point with a non-descript one, I'm restoring the picture of Mount Logan. Find a better picture. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   I disagree here, I don't think Mount Logan is germane. Most Canadians don't know about it, yet everyone knows about the praries, which is a significant portion of Canada and for which it defines the culture and exports of much of the country. -- Jeff3000 18:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   Well, this picture and caption is insufficient. Replacement of a point that educates with one that's filler is counterproductive. There are already links/mentions of prairie/s in-text; none for this superlative. If a better picture cannot be found, I shall remove the current one. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 19:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

4. Removed the downtown Montreal picture.

   Perhaps include the Expo 67 picture here, exemplifying Cdn bilingual/cultural heritage/gusto during the late 60s? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

5. Replaced Hockey picture with picture from commons.wikimedia.org showing a goal
6. Replaced Loon with a Maple Leaf

   Given the flag, this may be redundant. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 18:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   Going with the votes here, which I agree with. The maple leaf is the biggest symbol in Canada, and should be included. -- Jeff3000 18:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

   There was not a vote to include a maple leaf picture, only suggestions to include something more appropriate. I'm unsure this is it. Adding pictures of varying quality obviates enhancements recently made with pruning text. Again, we need to be discerning for pictures here and I will prune excessive ones. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 19:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the changes go with the above voting and comments, but I may be wrong, so please comment here regarding the changes. Sorry in advance if I've replaced an image you particulary like, but I felt I was just going with the votes. -- Jeff3000 18:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind if you prune some of the images which I added. I don't feel strongly about most of them; I was just adding what people suggested. So move them or prune them, go ahead and make changes. As for the maple leaf, it is the predominant Canadian symbol and it should be in the section on Canadian symbols. As for the Canadian Prarie vs Mount Logan, the prairie picture is not great, but it's definitely better than Mount Logan picture which shows very little about Canada; it has no context and doesn't affect Canadian identity. If Mount Logan was the tallest mountain in North America that would be something else, because as Canadians we like to say we have the biggest/tallest/most used, etc, but Mount Logan never comes up because it's not the tallest in North America. -- Jeff3000 19:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Great. My minor beef is adding images that add little value to the article or are placed awkwardly. With this overview article, we should be as judicious with pictures as with text. Pictures should relate with themes in accompanying text, and I've commented above on why a few of these can be improved, moved, or nixed.

As for Mount Logan, let's 'recap': it's the highest mountain in Canada – which is what this article is about! – the second highest mountain in North America (and if we always went for the gold, we'd frequently come up short), and reportedly does have the largest base circumference/massif area of any mountain on Earth. If I'm sounding like Joe, forgive me ... The current picture/caption of a prairie landform with elevator relays nothing beyond the current article text and replaces a wholly appropriate geographic superlative, representing another significant landform, of the country. I don't mind replacing it with something, but the current one isn't it and have yet to be convinced that this choice is better than the prior one. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 19:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm not really stuck on the prairie picture, so if you feel strongly go ahead and change it back to Mount Logan. -- Jeff3000 01:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Done! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 05:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

External Relations

This mentions the UK is still canada's mother country CHANGE IT!!!!!!!!!!! --24.81.6.211 23:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The context of the statement is in no way invalid; Canada can be an independent "adult" country and still have a historical "mother". And besides, the phrase "mother country" is in quotation marks. Bearcat 23:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

That term is still used where I live, not that we a less than Britain, but for historical reasons. Look at it this was when you move out of yuor home and live on your own your mother is still your mother, is she not?70.49.44.42 19:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)