Talk:Hells Angels

Hells Angels are Alive and well all over the world, I party with them regularly where ever I go. They are some of the nicest guys you will ever meet, they are always raising money for charities and down bikers or any cause they can find, they will help out just about anybody. They are not bank robbing thugs that sell drugs to your children, most of them have there own children and I would not want to be caught selling there kids drugs! They just like to ride and to be left alone. The fucking cops in this world are the problem they are so scared of there own shadows that they always make the situation worse than it is. Speaking as a member of an "Outlaw" club as you idiots would put it I know who is a better person and I would sit down to dinner with an Angel way before I would with a cop.So why dont you people leave us bikers the hell alone and worry about some real problems in the world. Next time you see an agel buy him a drink or just say hi, odds are you will be meeting a very decent person.

They "own children" do they? Like slavery? And yes police are the problem in this world.... Apart from your dubious grasp on grammar and your down right stupidity all you seem to do is glorify the Hells Angels and demonize every single policeman in the world. A rather sweeping notion.

So, if your house is being robbed, don't inform the police, as some "idiots" would who have a crazy idea that the police’s function is to deter and investigate crimes while any sensible vagrant, I mean biker knows you should call your friendly local Hells Angel that is if they can fit it into their busy schedule of charity work, saving cats from trees or helping the elderly cross the road. Thunder Cat

Bias

This is easily one of the worst, most biased articles in the entire Wikipedia and should be removed immediately.

All the descriptions of criminal activity listed here are ludicrous and leftover statistics from 30-50 years ago. It's because of that dark image that they've spent the last 20 years going over a massive and publicly advertised image overhaul. Most Angels chapters now frown on any kind of criminal activity and many have a 100% zero tolerance policy. The majority of members are substance free which even includes consumption of alcohol. Many chapters spend their time off the road working on philanthropies and just plain old good causes. Their rough image and free spirit nature may still remain but the danger and mayhem have long since been discarded. Of course there are exceptions, but they are a very, very small minority.

I think this article is by far not negative enough. Perhaps an articles on the bombings in Quebec and the societal fallout might explain why the Hells Angels have needed to wage their publicity campaign to reclaim their public image. Just because they have left the public eye does not mean they have reformed.

Whoever wrote this article is urinating on two decades of incredible and respectable reformation. The only thing going on here that's criminal is the fact that this b.s. exists in the Wiki.

You sound well informed on the viewpoint contray to that commonly expressed on this page. I urge you to amend the article, noting the information you refer to with details & basically to help improve this article rather. I agree with you that it is biassed (EG very little if anything about motorcycling activities & runs) but I don't know enough about the HAMC to accurately correct this, from your post it sounds like you do. AllanHainey 08:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

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If you can't join the HAMC, and they don't have members or recognise them, how does this gang exist?

Any Takers can write me at User talk:Michael Reiter.

In fact the club does not exist, we bikers invented it because we are the frail ones at the road, so none will bump their cars on us... just kidding. He meant that you do not ask to join the club, the club invites you. Manco

The Hells Angels (without an apostrophe)

Shouldn't the page be under "Hells Angels" if that's the proper name? It could be argued that "Hell's Angels" is the more common form, but I would in turn argue that it's like putting an article on Marven Gardens under "Marvin Gardens" because everybody picked up the misspelling from the Monopoly board. --Furrykef 05:00, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree, done. -- Solitude 13:05, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The club's official name is "Hells Angels" and not "Hell's Angels". This can be confirmed by visiting any official web site, or Sony Barger's web site. From there, you can find an explaination as to the difference between the to. Again, officially, it's "Hells Angels"

ACTUALLY, Sonny Barger's book says, "The apostrophe is used in the name of the club and the corporation, but not on the patch." -Page 37 He also uses the apostrophe throughout the entire book, anytime he refers to the Hell's Angels. Also, the name of the book is "Hell's Angel." Also, Hunter Thompson's book is named "Hell's Angels," and he also refers to them WITH the apostrophe throughout his book. Therefore, Mr Annoymous, it is NOT "officially" "Hells Angels." I believe Mr Barger would know just a little bit more about the Hell's Angels than any of you here. I propose that the introduction and the rest of the article be corrected. - W.W. 02/25/2006

Also for reference from the History Channel: "Members of the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club didn't start out on motorcycles—they started out in airplanes." http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/wildbunch/hells.html

Inflammatory?

It seems this article is extremely tainted, at least from the way I read it. Is there concrete proof to all those allegations, or should it just proclaim things like "likely" and "allegedly"?

I've attempted to neutralize the article a little bit. Let me know if the changes are acceptable -James

"$1 billion"?!

Quote: "The FBI estimates the Hells Angels take in $1 billion a year worldwide from drug trafficking, prostitution, and money laundering." That seems insanely inflated, if there's any truth to it at all. Even assuming the membership at 2,000 as quoted in the article (at its height in the late 1960s the Angels numbered less than 300, according to HST) that comes out to an annual revenue of $500,000 each. Seems unlikely. -- Bk0 04:12, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree... this is just likely a continuation of efforts by the FBI to demonize the Angels beyond the scope of their real-world actions. - Tom S.

Some of the statistics and organization proceedures may be off but www.rob-profile.com are not

The numbers game was brought up in the book Under and Alone by William Queen... A book on the Mongols. He brought up the fact that in the Mafia, he named 2 prominent families whom I forgot. Only had the make up of about 250 members each. I dunno if $1 billion is an exaggeration or not, but when you're in the business of worldwide gun and drug traffiking you make a pretty penny.

The numbers are provided by an outside source. I've neutralized the statement. - James

Founding Date

Got a question. I heard a rumor that the Angels actually pre-date WWII, and were active as early as the mid-30s. This comes from a relative of mine who supposedly had an uncle that "rode with the Angels back in the 30s." Is there any truth to this or is the relative mistaken? I'd love to hear the answer to that from a bona-fide Angel, not some FBI pig. Any 1%ers out there with internet access?? Tom S.

You relative might be speaking about the Warlocks, many members of the Hells Angels were Warlocks before the Hells Angels came to be.

Here is the official answer to the question: Prior to the formation, many of the members were part of a club known as 'The Pissed Off Bastards'. Very little is known about the club, other than local San Bernadino law enforcement forced the club to dissolve. This can be verified with the book 'Wild Ride' or Sony Barger's own book.

There were also a number of MC's named Hell's/Hells Angels running around California and other parts before the existing HAMC was formed, some of them later became part of the Hells Angels we know today, other changed there name or were disbanded. ~T.J. McKenzie

Daughter of a member

I am the daughter of a founding member of the Hells Angels Motorcycle club. I was disgusted when I read this article. All of my life I have had to explain to people that the men I grew up around including my father are not some notorius criminals. That the media has blown things out of the water. Hunter Thompson said things about the club that were far from true. And other media has done the same, I'm not saying that their the perfect citizens, I know that there are members who do take part in illegal acts, I've met a few. But more than 75% of them are normal people. One of the members in the charter is a football coach another is a Lawyer, he went to Yale. I know a member in Arkansaw that teaches 5th grade, and you wouldn't guess in a million years that he's some big bad biker. All I want to make clear is don't beleive anything you read-anywhere, because more often than not what you see and hear is only 1/4 true. I've grown up around the club been raised in the midst of motorcyle rumbles and exhaust fumes. These are good - regular people. Not the durg running, killers i just read about.

I agree not all Hells Angels are badguys. A few people I know are Hells Angels and are nice guys. I'm sure your father isn't part of the club commiting crimes but in a lot of place like Los Angeles, Hell Angels really do all that stuff. It just depends.

Again, www.rob-profile.com stands on truth and merit. Your 75% figure is totalally incorrect. What do you think your Dad is going to tell you, the truth of what the organization is and does. This article is rediculous and probably a joke. You could not be this stupid.

Where can I buy durgs??? --Cyberman 03:27, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for the misspelling. Everything I said stands on what I see, not what my father tells me, I know very well that he wouldn’t tell me the things he does or has done, I wouldn’t expect him to, nor would I believe it. Everything I wrote is based on what I see myself. I go to the parties, the swap meets, and the bike runs. I meet the people and talk to them. I’ve been offered drugs before, I see and hear what anyone else would. The fact of the matter stands that the few bad eggs make the rest of the bunch look bad. It would be like trying to say that all African Americans are gangsters, all Asian people are good at math, all blondes are dumb, and any other stereotype you can think of. Before you can place judgment or try and say that they’re all criminals you have to be around them, and see what they are like first hand.

That is not, in fact, correct — at least according to wikipedia policy. We want to cite sources, not personal experience. If you could find a reputable source (PhD. dissertation, MSc. thesis, publishing in a peer-review journal, published in a reputable news source) which confirms the things you say, please add such facts to the article, citing where you got your information. (Dissertations and thesis are reviewed by a board of professionals, as are peer-reviewed journal articles, while news sources have fact-checkers and editors). MosheZadka 15:36, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm studying history, and personal experiences are seen as important sources within the history science. The same accounts for anthropology. The war in Iraq was an example of how subjective news sources are. The German and Belgian media gave a completely different view of the Americans then the BBC. This different views became apparent by the subjects they used: do you interview American deserters and Iraqis who lost there family in a bombardment or do you interview cheering Iraqis on the side of the road when you accompany your troops. I don't know any Hells Angels, but i see personal experiences as a source.--Daanschr 21:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

although they are just personal experenices, the "daughter of a member" is in a much better position to pass comment on HAMC than someone who wrote the article based on books. i personnally have never met a member of HAMC but i do know members of MC's and yes not all of them are angels (forgive the pun) but on the whole they are very decent people and lets be realistic everyone in an MC isnt a criminal and bikes, road tax, insurance, leathers and a host of other equipment a biker needs is expensive so either all bikers are criminals or, more realisticly, that yes some may be criminals but most will have jobs, families and be decent law abiding people, in the very same sence that some footballers or rugby players will be criminals but most of them will not

my father is a memeber of a motor cycle club (not the hells angles) but any how i am very upset on the bias views of the motor cycle clubs and ridders they are not all bad this is a world i was born into i was born into the club and i am very loyal to them they have had a large part in my up bringing they have taught me all that i know and made me the person that i am today they are not bad people sure they have some bad ones but so does every other group or club dont judge a motor cycle club before you get to know that they are not all bad people and should not be subject to these biased veiws that you so called upper socity have of them we are one big family and that is more than most people can say i know that no matter what they have me on their side and i have someone to catch me if i fall do you have someone that you can put your life in there hands and not worry well i do and guess what they are bikers and they are good people and alot of them are in jail because of crimes that didnt do and you all put them there just to make yourselves feel better you all should be ashamed of yourselves. C.J.V

i'm sorry but C.J.V. you started off quite well but to end your $0.02 with @and they are all in gaol for crimes they didnt commit' and to then blame that on everyone else seems a bit gfar fetched, like come on love

Never met an a good and honest HA. In other words HA HA HA. The Hells Angels a motor cycle club maybe in the 50's. Get real girl. Stop taking drugs, your brain is not functioning right. They're animals, and should be treated as such. 2REI

When You Post a Real Gang - Wikipedia Member's Dispute it - Yet a MC Club is Called a Gang and It Is Accepted

I have no further comments on this page!(UTC)

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129.11.76.229 19:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

come on

don't like it? change it.

Dear ***. Are you kidding? These guys are as dangerous as G Gordon Liddy. They kidnapped my next door neibour. The taped him down to a char, shaved his head, broke everything he owned, stole both his cars. Nice Guys! They are easily professional drug addicts. They are 'proported criminals?' They are "alledged?". Alleged? Do you allege Gravity?

"Warning: Alcohol MAY cause intoxication." - Sign in Flordia Gas Station.

Hi, anon. I respect your opinion, but please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. As a neutral encyclopedia we must not advocate one point of view over another; rather we report the fact that some sources allege that this group is criminal while others disagree. (BTW, gravity is a pretty contentious subject in the realm of theoretical physics these days; feel free to read the articles on quantum gravity and string theory in your free time.) :) --Bk0 (Talk) 19:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Depending on the countries and their criminal laws, the HAMC organization is, by itself illegal. Furthermore, members of the club have a tendency to be involved in criminal lucrative activities, especially 'full-patch members' (members who are authorized to wear the full logo on the back of their jackets, as seen on the picture with the article).

Hells Angels are sometime asociated to criminals

In Quebec (a canadian province), under the leadership of Maurice 'Mom' Boucher (he was a prominent leader of an elite chapter called 'Nomads'), the HA have been able to establish themselves as the main elements responsible for drug trafficking in eastern Canada, and probably in north-east USA. The also controlled de street-level commerce of drugs chemical drugs, such as ecstasy, including the liquid version, which was very popular in the mid-90. During the 1994-2001 biker war in Quebec, HA members have been directly responsible of many contract murders, including of two prison guards, and attempted murders, such as an attempt on the life of a criminal-affairs journalist. The war opposed the HA to the Rock Machines, which was associated to the Bandidos, a biker gang opposed to the HA. This war ended in 2001, when the national and local police organizations arrested more then 50 individuals (almost all of the full-patch members of the Nomads and the Rockers) in a single operation. Almost all the people accused have pleaded guilty to various charges, including murder 1 and 2, attempted murder, drug trafficking, extortion and fraud.

I cannot speak for other HA chapters around the world, but the Quebec HA chapters were clearly involved into criminal activities. In fact, criminal activities were institutionalized in the day-to-day activities of the HA in Quebec.

I find it hard to believe this situation was unique in Quebec and that HASF or HANY are all law-abiding citizens.

You Froggies are funny.

I also agree with the negative editorial slant of this article

Far from being outlaws or rebels in any true sense of the word, all Hells Angels' members are just your average suit wearing yuppies during the week who like to blow off a little steam by playing "dress-up" and riding around on their motorcycles on the weekends. Think about it: who else can afford to blow 20K + on a crummy motorcycle like a Harley? Hells Angels are alot like transvestites, except instead of dressing in women's clothes, they wear the uniform of the fabled "outlaw biker"...just substitute the frilly underwear for a leather vest and you get the basic picture.

There are so many wrong things about the comment above

1-Having Harley Davidson is a standard requirement for HA members But, the thing is, the bike itself is generaly not registered under the name of the biker riding it. It is under his wife/girlfriend/mother/father/children/etc... so that it cannot be seized by law-agency as a product of crime.

2-They can afford it by selling dope (preferably cocaïne because of its persistent high demand and important profit returns), extorting money, loan sharking, teft, fraud and selling more dope.

3-Harley Davidson are not 'crummy'. They are very powerfull and well-designed bikes. Also, HA members can put more than 50K on these little babies since it is a general symbol of their rank and status in the chapter.

4-Comparing HA to travestites is funny!

I would like you to call one a crossdresser to his face I think you must live far from any of them for they ARE as dangerous as they ever were.

Neutral comment

I encourage people who object to the article to edit it, particularly those who know the organization from the inside. I met the Hells Angels only once. I had stopped at a gas station in California's San Joaquin Valley and exchanged a brief greeting with two of them. They were polite and pleasant. I realize these aren't the Boy Scouts. I also realize that if my Sportster had broken down on the freeway they would have stopped and helped out: roadside assistance to other riders is a club public service. I also realize they're the reason why no one ever stole from my saddlebags. Durova 05:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Just a question for anyone who might be in the position to answer. I have been under the impression, as stated above, that articles should be verifiable through reputable sources. The "rob-profile.com" site was noted a couple of times as being a source for the article. I have to say that, in my opinion, the website is a far cry from being reputable in the way that something like a peer-reviewed journal is. Is a website sufficient as a source for Wikipedia? (For those who may not be aware, while I did not read all of the content on the website, I saw enough to know that it treats some contraversial subjects as fact.) --unsigned

So many unsigned comments here! Please use your userid when posting anything on a discussion page! I just happened across this article in linking from another page. The article appears biased and refers to criminal activities but has little to no sources to back up the accusations to the club as a whole. I see references to a bombing in Quebec which I know nothing about, but there is no source, only another unsigned personal account on this talk page. I don't have any info to add to the article but as a neutral wikipedian on this subject I can clearly see that this article either needs to better sourced to support its apparent bias against HAMC or modified to reflect a more NPOV. I see that "James" (again no userid signature - and I am not going to go thru the history to find out who "James" is) has attempted to make certain NPOV adjustments according to the talk page but the article still alledges many negative aspects without sources listed for the allegations. --Censorwolf 14:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Try reading The Road To Hell, which is a reference on the main page, if you want to know about HA crimes in Quebec and throughout Canada. As for unsigned comments, keep in mind that going public against the HA can be quite dangerous, as many witnesses have found! --M4-10 19:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

My point is there are very few references to back up the points, which leads me to distrust the information provided when it is inflamatory. News articles would be helpful for instance. --Censorwolf 21:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

As someone who as lived in Montreal in the late 90s early 2000s, I believe this article to be way too neutral. Alleged criminal activities ? Since when being found guilty in a court of law of being behind numerous assasinations, bombings and heavy drug traficking gets you being labeled an "alleged criminal" ? I can not speak of the chapters across the world, but Hells Angels in eastern Canada are law abiding as much as mafia members are legitimate business men. Come on ! You want referenes ? Sure, just look up court records in the province of Quebec. They're publicly available for all to see. You can start by looking up Maurice Boucher. Michele Auger, a journalist, paid dearly for having dared to investigate on them.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/featurestories/bikers/timeline.html

Fuck you all

I don't know why the hell everybody's arguing. Hells Angels are a group of people that like to ride motorcycles and like to raise hell! My grandpa was a Hells Angel, and he was the coolest motherfucker on the face of the planet! People who believe they're evil are going to believe they're evil and people who believe they're not are going to believe they're not. They are what they are. Personally, I like the Hells Angels and I say, so what if they raise hell, I mean, its not like middle-class aristrocrat suburbia is any better. Fuck you all.

You can't be "middle-class aristrocrat" or even a middle class aristocrat because that's self contradictory. So all you seem to have said is that you like Hells Angels. Great, good for you. Couldn't you have saved yourself the embarrassment of showing off your limited vocabulary and questionable understanding of society and just said that? Thunder Cat

"and like to raise hell!" THANK YOU! Thank you for confirming the accuracy of the article; only an idiot would claim that the Hells Angels are anything other than a bunch of murdering, raping, drug-dealing criminal thugs. -- Spock, 1 March 2006 1600 (UCT)

Whatever you say Adolph I mean Spock I mean if anyone thinks different they must be idiots. Thunder Cat

EDIT: Wow, you've convinced me! NO WAY could the Hell's Angels be criminals, with polite, literate, intelligent people like this guy defending them!

Introduction is incomplete

The introduction of this article (the part before the TOC) doesn't say what the Hells Angels actually are. Someone with knowledge on this subject should correct that. -- ironcito 18:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Go to www.rob-profile.com for an actual case,exceptional facts and knowledge.

This is one funny discussion page...

I find some of these comments absolutely hilarious. If anything, this page is not inflammatory or negative enough. Too many people are under the impression that the Hells Angels is not into organized crime.

My father, who is a lawyer in southern Ontario, has represented many Angels and their associates. I cannot stress enough that these guys are complete and total pricks, they handle most if not all of the hard drug trade in Southern Ontario. I have heard tapes, and seen some police video of interviews with Angels and their associates. Part of their cleaner image is that it is so hard to become a member that most convictions only occur on associates. It's rare to take down a member. They have become very smart - today you are more likely to find an Angel in a business suit than in leathers and on a bike.

Anyway, my point is to add some contextual and anecdotal support for you guys - I hope this article never detereroites into a PR page for the Angels. I wouldn't be suprised if alot of these comments came from associates of the Angels themselves.

So basically what you're saying is Hells Angels are criminals but that doesn't stop your father from taking money from them and fighting for them to not be put in prison but you still hand out lectures on morals? Furthermore, how would you see all this evidence? Your dad let you have a sneak peek? Well I might be wrong but isn't that illegal? Thunder Cat

"...an Angel in a business suit than in leathers and on a bike." - Dude, you SERIOUSLY must not know anything about what the Hells Angels are like. I've been in Daytona and Myrtle Beach with them, I've hung out with them, and trust me man, these are NOT suit wearing kind of guys. They live to ride, and their bikes are their most prized posessions. - W.W. 03/01/2006

Isn't it possible that different areas have different kinds of Angels? It's hardly a centralized organization, and there are no "standards" as to what it means to be a Hells Angel. So while in one town they may be good folks, in another they may be a mafia. Even if there were some "official" Angels guidelines, they wouldn't encompass ALL of a person's aspects. After all, it is a motorcycle gang, it's not going to tell the person what to do with their lifes outside of motorcycle activities. Wether or not to be a criminal, is up to each member. I think we could all agree that some of them are criminals and some are not. -- ironcito 05:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Police Conspiracy? No, just a bunch of deluded people

Ok, so let me get this strait. Every time I hear about a raid on a Hell's Angels drug house in the news, it's all a police cover up. Man, your worse than those moon hoax guys, or those holocaust deniers. well, not as bad as the later but pretty close. ok look. I've heard that they are really respectible from some people I know. People into gangs and stuff. But other than that, they are a gang, and those people who say they are nice are also the first to admit that they are ruthless gangsters. Trust me. There's a difference between those who like to ride motercycles as part of motercycle clubs and those who are hell's angels. This article is fact, it is not biased and this shouldn't even be a discution.

HUNT THE FUCKERS DOWN LIKE ANIMALS

It would be so simple to eradicate these assholes off. They kill, rape and sell illigal drugs. They cost society lots of money because there attorneys know how to manipulate the system. Lets kill these assholes and there families, then will see if they change and are really nice people. I very much don't think the L.E. would mind. 2REI [1]

Wow what a bunch of friggin idiots...80% of you jackasses wouldnt know a Hells Angel if he smacked you in the mouth..And as far as killing them as the asshole before me said. First off dickhead this is AMERICA and you can be anything you want to be. A politician, a policeman, fireman or even a Hells Angel for that matter. Second kill there families what kind of half baked ball bag are you. I think that you should go to a clubhouse near you and say that out loud. I think that the focus of this country should be on changing the way President Bush has railroaded us into a war with a stone age country and cant seem to get us out of it now. So what does he think will help Oh yeah pointing the finger at Iran and this asshole wants to kill Hells Angels and thier families what an internet loud mouth.... Half a fag at best!!!65.33.182.100 11:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarification, this is *not* America. This is Wikipedia, which is *not* based in America. And while you might think you are being anonymous with your remarks, it's quite easy to track you to rr.com

Kill them all and their faimiles eh? Doesn't sound like a too bad idea in fact it could be a real *solution* to the crime problems in some areas. Why not call your idea the "final solution"? It has a ring to it. Thunder Cat