Talk:10,000 Days (Tool album)

Album name

I guarantee this won't be the name of the album. Tool likes to fuck with us. BluesX 18:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but the information I had wrote in this article was either released on the official Tool web sites, or in official, reputed magazines, which got their information from the band. I agree that this may not end up being true, knowing Tool, but at the moment, the most we can do is take the band's word for it and chronicle what they tell us. Not to mention I also wrote that due to Tool's nature as a band to give false information, this posted information in the article MAY not be true, but it's all we have go on right now, and it is currently official from the band.

Just fixed the crap out of the entire article, due to the ridiculous amount of made-up content, such as the album length (no one knows, as only rough counts have emerged), mistakes regarding systema encephale, and assumptions about the track title meanings. 138.78.106.76 18:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This info comes from the official Tool Web page...

...But most Tool fans know to take things with a grain of salt, especially if it involves an album name months before the release date. I say it might be a hoax and I vote to delete the page until things get official with the record company.Kpwa gok 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Post rumors here. Please no speculation on the article page unless it is contained in a specific section for rumors/speculation.Kpwa gok 00:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• OK, I created a rumors header for everyone to put rumored info or speculation before the info is more widelt released or known. Kpwa gok 20:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I found a quote by a Dr. Wayne Dyer: "Have you really lived 10,000 or more days, or have you lived one day 10,000 or more times?" Related? I have no idea, just something to think about163.120.77.181 15:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Why 10,000 days could be the real title

If not for the album, at least something that has to do with Tool. The domain 10000days.com was registered February 15th, while the news about the album name was posted at toolband.com March 3rd. -- drange 13:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's vote!

I have listed this article on articles for deletion to see wether this article should be deleted or not. If anyone of you guys think this article should be deleted (since it's another hoax), please feel free to vote here. Mike Garcia 23:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

From Billboard it may be official

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002155882

Fourth / Fifth / Sixth album

We should probably just decide and leave it, because I keep seeing edits going back and forth as to whether 10,000 Days is the fourth, fifth, or sixth album. It's:

• the sixth total album
• the fifth studio album (Opiate was recorded in a studio)
• the fourth full-length album (Opiate was an EP)

How do you want to call it? Dylan 19:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't care that much, although if pressed, I'd stick to fourth full-length studio release. I think this dispute consumes too much time for my taste, considering what else could be accomplished in the meantime.- --Johnnyw 19:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean and I agree with you, but it'd be nice to set it down just so that it doesn't keep getting reverted. Dylan 20:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

songs on morpheus

There are a few songs on morpheus that say their from 10,000 days. One is called Vicarious, which is the first track on the new CD. I'm normally very very skeptical about leaked tracks, but this one sounds legit. It really does. It doesn't sound like Adam's normal gear that he uses, but the Tool style is definitely there and you can hear some whispered vocals in the background that sound like they could be Maynard. There are no audible lyrics, but it sounds like it could be a first track on a Tool record. What do you guys think?

There is another track I found claiming to be "Rosetta Stoned". It couldn't be more fake, don't even waste time on it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jombage (talk • contribs)

I don't want to disappoint you, but the article talk page should relate around how to improve the article only, or to solve disputes only, since this ain't a board. To give you at least some feedback: I'll restrain myself and wait until I remove the wrapping and listen to the entire album with the stereo on full throttle ;) --Johnnyw 02:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Johnnyw in terms of waiting until I know it's authentic Tool I'm listening to, but I'll be very interested to ask you in two months if the tracks you were listening to now were indeed from the real album. Dylan 14:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of Track Titles

It may be worth noting the other meaning for the names of some of these songs in a trivia section or something. For example, Jambi is a province of Indonesia, and the Lipan Apache are a Native American tribe. The Rosetta Stone is a granite stone found in Egypt, which provedcrucial to the deciphering of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Viginti Tres is also means twenty three in latin (see Wiktionary and search viginti and tres seperately).Amazonis 10:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I thought I would consult some other humans before doing anything... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amazonis (talk • contribs)

Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~). Thank you. --Johnnyw 12:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe just wikilink them in the tracklisting for now (as has already been done with Rosetta Stoned and Hofmann). Since we haven't heard the songs, we can't say for sure if they really deal with the topics that they seem to, but I think linking the titles is a good form of acknowledging that we saw the reference without trying to interpret it before hearing. Dylan 14:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd be wary about wikilinking before actually hearing the songs. "Jambi" could just as easily refer to Jambi the Genie from Pee-wee's Playhouse, you know? - Rynne 13:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't wikilinks always link to articles related to the actual song, not the the assumed (and unsourced!) reference?? --Johnnyw 13:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There has been some speculation that `Hofmann' refers to Mark Hofmann rather than Albert Hofmann. Mark Hofmann was an elaborate hoaxster that sold forged documents to the Mormon chuch among others. Hobophobe 23:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahh...complications. Johnnyw's probably right -- without hearing the songs, we really can't say what anything is about. The only wikilink I'd keep is Rosetta Stone, because I don't think that that title could possibly mean anything else. Dylan 01:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Cover art

File:Tool 10000 Days Cover.jpg

10,000 Days

I added the cover art today. Don't know if this is 100% confirmed. --Steerpike 19:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Where did you find it? Dylan 19:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not official artwork. It's on this page along with all the other fakes: [1] -VJ 22:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting...I wonder who's got the time to be churning stuff like that out? It sure looked real, but then again, so do all the others on that page. Dylan 22:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

To be honest that looks more than real. Like someone got a hold of the booklet. Why would anyone go through the trouble of producing an entire fake booklet and take pictures of it? Are you sure this is confirmed as fake? --Steerpike 22:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Look at the other booklets at the link (http://www.toolcollector.net/fake_artwork/) -- there are dozens of similar examples, some of them with track listings and album titles that were thought possible months ago but not anymore. It surprises me, too, but apparently, people went to the trouble of producing more than just one. Dylan 01:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

There is now a piece of artwork (http://www.toolband.com/news/images/xmdays_mini_art.jpg) claiming to be official. Although this may even raise more skepticism (given the form of the accompanying logo here: http://www.toolband.com/news/images/xmdays_logo.jpg) since we are moving forward on the impression "yeah some of this might be fake, but we'll post it as it's from an official channel" I guess someone can post that artwork for the album? Hobophobe 01:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's worth putting up yet, there's no confirmation that it's infact the cover, and is probably (hopefully!) just some of the artwork from the liner. hellboy 01:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, let's put it up -- even though it all may be false, we've added the tracklist and album title released by Tool. (On a side note, the album cover reminds me of some work by Alex Grey, who's done a lot for them before.

Cool! Thanks for finding that. Dylan 01:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

We have to wait before putting the artwork up because of its unknown copyright status. We don't know for sure if it's a cover, therefore we don't know if fair use applies. Image w/o fair use rationale or other verifiable copyright tag will be removed w/o warning. I say we just wait until the gentlemen decide to release next bit of info. --Johnnyw 01:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

To be a bit more precise: what would the rationale be? "There is 75% chance that this is the cover of Tool's upcoming release which will probably be titled 10,000 days and might be released on May 2nd under a yet unknown copyright license by yet unknown a publisher"? --Johnnyw 02:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

100% Agree, no point putting anything up until we're pretty damn sure it's the cover, and it's all too vague at the moment. hellboy 01:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

File:Tool 10,000 Days.jpg

Speculation of the cover for 10,000 Days, posted on Tool's official website.

I downloaded the cover that was posted on Tool's official website and I'm not sure if it's really confirmed either. Mike Garcia 23:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE: Amazon.com has posted the new image from toolband.com as the album cover, including the new logo released at the same time. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EULJLU/103-1383500-2435006 Dylan 06:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC).

Hmmm, so we don't know if the image is genuine or not, eh.

So What???

We don't know if ANYTHING on this page is genuine. For all we know everything from the album title to the track listing could be fake. BUT we still created this article. The article has a tag up the top warning people that it may contain material of a speculative nature. What is the diference between a speculative track listing and a speculative image? Amazonis 06:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

As per Johnnyw's comment, until we have the copyright status of an image, we shouldn't post it. Also note that Amazon & other sites will post 'promo' images until the actual artwork. Please see http://toolshed.down.net/pix/lat/lateralushalfeye.jpg This was the 'promo image' for Lateralus. Hobophobe 08:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Bebo Norman

I added a note about Bebo Norman, a contemporary Christian musician, having released a similarly named album in 1999, which was reverted by Kane5187 for not seeming relevant. I don't feel that strongly about it, but I think it's relevant. Last time Tool pulled a hoax, the claim was that Maynard James Keenan found Jesus [2], a hoax carried through so effectively that MTV reported on it and many fans were convinced it was true [3]. I don't want to violate NPOV about this, but I am 99.9% sure that the album name and track listing is bullshit, and there are a lot of clues making it out to be an elaborate joke. The background notes on the track names do a good job of referencing those clues without passing a judgment one way or another. Maybe I'm reading too much into it with the Bebo Norman thing, but I wanted to do the same with the title. There may also be some (possibly biblical) significance to "ten thousand days" that motivated both titles that I'm not aware of. -VJ 20:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I guessed at the significance of Bebo Norman being a Christian musician, but I still feel like it's a really big stretch to draw lines between him and this album. Based on the size of his Wikipedia article, it doesn't seem he's a particularly well-known musician, nor does 10,000 Days suggest a title that would be recognizable as either a Christian or Norman album. While there may be some Biblical significance (10,000 Days sounds rather epic and godly), it seems to me that if it's meant as a clue, it's one that they must have known would go over a lot of heads. (As a side note, Norman's album was Ten Thousand Days, while all the references to Tool's have used the digits).

I really doubt that 10,000 Days will be changed (obviously, we're heading back into opinion-land, I'm just writing this for the sake of conversation). The final track listing and album title for Lateralus were revealed on February 15 of 2001, with the album coming out a full three months later. We're now approaching just one month away; it seems that, based on the past timetable, the days for hoaxes should be over. Further (as was pointed out at toolband.com as a reason for their announcement of the title), sending the album to press and involving people in the production of actual copies will greatly increase the likelihood of leaking the "real" information. I would think we might have heard something.

Back to the point: feel free to add it back in, as long as it's reasonably encyclopedic. I didn't mean to stomp your contribution, but as it stood when I reverted, it merely stated a mildly interesting coincidence without any assertation of its significance or reasons why it was more than a coincidence. Dylan 05:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's just leave it off unless someone comes forth with some type of biblical significance. But, for the record, most of those clues are meant to go over a lot of people's heads. It's sorta how Tool rolls. -VJ 06:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Page Protection

I've filed a request for page protection, because of the ongoin revert war. We need a clear and final decision on two subjects: 1. Album artwork 2. 4th, 5th or 6th release. Both topics have already been discussed, nevertheless, anons as well as registered users seem to revert whichever way they feel like. Let's have a talk here with a clear vote one way or the other to quiet things down and make this page a little more stable. --Johnnyw 15:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Addition. The admin handling my request says that protecting this page is a borderline issue. He asked me to try to get more editors involved in this discussion first. If the reverting goes on and this discussion is not fruitful, the page will be protected to enforce a fruitful debate. So let's get this issue settled and let's forget to protect our consensus afterwards vs 3rd party editors who do not know about this discussion and edit the article anyways.. --Johnnyw 10:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Album artwork The question is: are you in favor or against the inclusion of the artwork posted on toolband.com as the album conver infobox?

Your opinion:

• Against. I feel quite strongly against the inclusion, because of the reasons stated above. The minor reason is that we do not for sure if this is real artwork or a hoax. The major reason is that the copyright status is completely unknown. In order to comply with the fair use of copyrighted material on WP we need a fair use rationale that must include things like a source, a known copyright status, the copyright owner and other things. We don't even know under which label the album will be released, who the copyright own actually is. Please remember, images without a fair use rationale will be deleted in a matter of days. --Johnnyw 15:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• Against. I argued for inclusion earlier, but I didn't realize then that toolband.com hadn't confirmed this as cover artwork, just as artwork from somewhere in (or maybe just associated with) the album. Dylan 16:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• Against (previously Weak For). I feel that if we're going to post the other possibly false information, we might as well post the artwork. Cover or not, it's the only thing we have. This is ignoring the copyright issues, which should probably dictate the decision. Do we really not know what label the album will be released on? Isn't it certain it'll be Volcano II? -VJ 16:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, yes we can probably assume that it will be Volcano, but we are talking about using a legal exception. To use this exception (see Wikipedia:Fair use) we are required to determine "3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;" which we do not know, as well as a "Proper attribution of the source of the material, and attribution of the copyright holder (if it is different) where possible.", which we cannot, because we do not know who the copyright holder is, since the album is not relesed yet. Additionally, I assert that if the album will be released and the artwork is NOT part of the new album, publishing the image will not even have been covered by fair use in the first place.. --Johnnyw 17:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Okay, you're right. The source is obvious, but the copyright holder is Toolband.com/Tool if it's part of the hoax and Volcano if its really going to be used. I'm not sure if its substantiality to the album is going to be significantly changed whether it's the cover or inside-the-booklet artwork or a hoax used to, loosely put, publicize the album (because that's what all this stuff really does) - I think it'd be fair use in any case. But because of the prior point, I'm changing my vote.-VJ 19:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Amazon.com states the label as Volcano. (EDIT: Interestingly, AMG lists "Tool JV.") Dylan 19:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• Against per Johnnyw regarding copyright info. - Rynne 04:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
• Against Copyright issues aside, post the artwork as part of the article, but there's no confirmation yet that it's the cover at all. For all we know it's just a page in the booklet hellboy 05:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
• Against Soon enough we will have what's right to put there, and until then it would be speculative. Hobophobe 20:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Amazon posts artwork that appears to be official: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EULJLU/103-1383500-2435006 Dylan 06:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment This makes it a Volcano copyright. I think we can use that image now. Johnnyw? Dylan? Agreed?-VJ 11:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Agree. This comes quite close to what I was waiting for. Thanks for this discovery VJ! And as I thought, the artwork published by toolband.com wasn't really the cover of the album. So we could have made quite a mistake there.. Our doubts were justified. (But let's see if the band will find a way to make another u-turn in a couple of weeks ;) ). --Johnnyw 22:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Oh, the discovery was entirely Dylan's. Unfortunately, since then, Blair has posted on Toolband that the cover was created for Amazon to have the band name and album name on it because Amazon required this (this sounds like bullshit to me - lots of albums covers on Amazon don't have text on them. Blair also said that the actual album cover will be that image without text on it [4]. So I think the problem persists. The Toolband.com image can't be conclusively traced to Volcano, the Amazon image isn't the real cover according to Toolband. I guess we can still post the Amazon one, knowing that, according to Blair, it's unauthentic. -VJ 23:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Whoops, I am sorry. Ok: Thx Dylan! Back to topic: VJ you are probably right. The amazon image is not real cover artwork and the problem remains.. Although the 10,000days artwork on toolband.com will most likely be it, we can't be sure. To justify the use of copyright material in accordance with fair use I still believe we need to wait a little bit more. Maybe we could include our issue on Wikipedia:Copyright problems to get help? --Johnnyw 19:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• In Favor There is a tag at the top of the article that warns people that it may contain material of a speculative nature. What is the diference between a speculative track listing and a specualtive image??? Amazonis 06:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The copyright issues mentioned above. Images are subject to more copyright issues. -VJ 11:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

4th/5th/6th release? Dylan kindly opened the discussion on this issue. Sadly, only I responded. The question is: do we want to call the album

• the sixth total album
• the fifth studio album (Opiate was recorded in a studio)
• the fourth full-length album (Opiate was an EP).

Your opinion:

• Abstain. I abstain, I don't care. There are much more important issues. Whichever way the majority decides, I'll support their decision. --Johnnyw 15:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• 4th full length, although I agree that it's not terribly important. I suggested deciding so that it might end the constant reverts from one to the other. Dylan 16:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• Nix entirely. I don't quite agree with the clarifications above. Four of the six tracks on Opiate were recorded in a studio, but a lot of the tracks on the Salival CD were studio recordings as well. If you're going to count Salival as a "total album", you might as well count it as a full-length album too, since the Salival CD was something like 77 minutes long. There's really no clear way to say what number this is, so let's just say it's the next album, and let anybody, who really has to know and doesn't already, check the Tool discography on the band article. Fourth "standard" album might work too, since Salival was a limited edition release, but I might have just made that term up. -VJ 16:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
• None. Essentially, I think if the 4th/5th/6th release designation isn't immediately obvious, it's probably best left out. Anyway, if it was put in, it'd probably result in people editing back-and-forth anyway. If another editor thinks there is an obvious release number, he can put it in later. - Rynne 04:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
• The forthcoming album will be Tools 4th full length studio album. Undertow is widely recognised as their debut album, and Opiate as an EP. Most of Salvial is live, so it can hardly be called a studio album.Amazonis 06:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
• the sixth total album. This is the most informative choice, as it tells the reader exactly how many _albums_ there are. Hobophobe 20:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Current vote is: 2 for nothing, 2 for 4th full length studio album, 1 abstain any more votes to seal the deal? --Johnnyw 14:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)