Talk:Mormon (word)

very weak piece here

My overall impression is that we have a very weak piece here. As noted in part below, none of the particularities or core beliefs of Mormons are treated much or at all, not how they differ from other Christians/Christians, why the Catholic Church has a beef with them and won't regard them as a fellow Christian religion, nor polygamy, clothing, their view of the afterlife (which I heard somehow involves some river in the West somewhere), husbands' role in judging their wives and families, role in politics, ascetism, highly dominant role in Utah society, etc. I realize this may be due (or partly due) to vandalism, but to me, it has to be said. I am modestly interested in the subject, but I don't have much knowledge personally to go writing about it, unfortunately. Mare Nostrum 12:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Part of this is the fact that "Mormon" and "Latter-day Saint" are not directly synonymous, and this article tries to keep that in mind. For more information on the subjects you're interested in, I recommend you check out the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. The Jade Knight 18:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Copyright nazi

It is against wikipedia policy to refer to copyrighted material that is published illegally. Besides, the material referrenced would be more suited to other articles. B

Secret underwear

I'd like to see some information about the 'garments' and 'testamony', and perhaps some other beliefs which distinguish the Church of Latter-Day Saints from other religions which hold to the Old Testament (and additional writings). --Zandperl

The reason there is no informations about the garments is because of their sacred nature. I plan to; however, add as much as I can about them on the LDS page, as well as testimony.

Church name

Shouldn't the word 'church' appear in lowercase when not appearing as part of the church's name? If this were an article about another institution, say, Utah State University, you would not capitalize the word 'university' when referring to it in a sentence such as "The university was founded as an agricultural college..." (even though 'university' also appears in the school's name).

I agree. It seems a little weird Ebb

Usage of terms

Restoration Movement

The churches of the Stone-Campbell Movement are not normally referred to as "Restoration Churches", but sometimes collectively as the "Restoration Movement". --Texastwister

Mormonite

I changed the Mormonite paragraph's saying these words were "commonly used" to just they were "used," since the Oxford English Dictionary only gives one historical example for each of those words. mrcolj Mrcolj

Mormon

I don't think that many Latter-day Saints consider the term Mormon to be derogatory. It is after all, the name of an important prophet and is still part of the official name of the Church's most prestigious choir. For many years the nick-name "Mormon" was embraced and was even featured in television advertisements for the church. However, in recent years the Church has officially discouraged use of the term Mormon to refer to the Church and its members in favor of the official name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the church and Latter-day Saints for the members.

This move away from the term "Mormon", seems to stem more from a desire to show deference to the official name, which Latter-day Saints believe to be divinely inspired rather than a dislike for the term "Mormon".

We've been discussing this on talk:Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I've added this - "The Quakers, Mennonites, and Amish have embraced the nicknames or pejorative terms that were applied to them, while the Latter-day Saints reject the nickname 'Mormon'." - to the section on Quakers and Mormons. That explanation seems to need to be made to make the section make sense (at least to me). Besides, who has ever actually been confused that the Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, and Mormons constitute the same group? If this (about the nickname) is not technically correct, perhaps something needs to be done to the whole section. If the section is not about the contrast of those groups embracing or not embracing nicknames, what is it about? - Rlvaughn 17:07, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think this should be changed. Of all these groups the only ones that are actually commonly confused are the Amish and the Mennonites, which are loosely related. I suppose some people unfamiliar with these groups confuse Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses due to their similar outreach methods and their marginal status in the mainstream Christian community, but I think most people are well aware that they are distinct. NTK 06:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I am a "Mormon", and I have often been asked why I don't use electricity. Latter-Day Saints are mistaken for Amish, Menonites, and Jehovah's Witnesses more often than you would think. Bisric 23:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The article mentions that the LDS church doesn't like the term Mormon being used to refer collectively to all groups that follow the Book of Mormon, but it doesn't say what term they prefer to be used instead. For example, do they like Restoration Churches or Restoration Movement, or do they just object to anyone referring to the churches collectively under any name? If someone knows the answer, please add it to the article. --Zundark 21:07, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Please visit Naming conventions (Mormonism) for more details Visorstuff 21:39, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Zundark, if I understand you correctly, your question is not about what members should be called, but what the Church thinks non-member-Mormons should be called if not Mormons. AFAIK no Church authority has suggested an alternate term, and I don't think Church authorities would even like the term "Mormon-splinter-group" applied to them. Some Latter-day Saints might call them apostates. B 22:29, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

This is an encyclopaedia, not a religious tract. Mormon rules on what to call Mormons do not apply to a secular work such as this. Please keep this in mind and do not attempt to turn any article referring to Mormonism into an opportunity for proselytisation. It's in your best interests, as well as those of Wikipedia, because too much spin will very likely prompt someone to balance it out in a way the Mormon Church just might not like. --66.199.69.117

66.199.69.117, your accusations, implied and expressed, are unfounded, your reponse mostly irrelevant, and your grasp of wikipedia and its policies and your ignorance and bigotry are unimpressive. B 16:16, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

I would like people to stick to the policy of a NPOV rather than attempting to impose LDS guidelines as Wikipedia guidelines. I would appreciate it if anyone dealing in this subject matter would comply with this simple request.

Additionally, I would appreciate your not engaging in personal attacks. However, at least it is patently obvious (and should be to any reader) that you have nothing to base them on.

Finally, it should be noted that I have not implied anything. I have simply stated a point of view in accordance with standard Wikipedia policy. You are free to infer what you choose, though I recommend not inferring negative concepts as it has been shown to lead to undue stress in many individuals.

If one were to note the inherent similarity of the concepts of 'Bigot' and 'Nazi', one might also then note that 'B' has invoked Godwin's law in a euphemistic fashion.

Latter Day Saint vs. Latter-day Saint

Twice in a few weeks we have had to deal with attempts to "correct" Latter Day Saint to Latter-day Saint. If it is going to be that hard to make stick, maybe we need to put our heads together and come up with a different solution or a way to head off the problem. Any ideas? Tom (hawstom) 05:06, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Tom - I am not sure why you would want to use the "Latter Day" version over the accurate "Latter-day" version. What source are you basing that on? The name originates from a revelation published by Joseph Smith, recorded in the book Doctrine and Covenants (section 115, verse 4) "For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." The correct spelling is "Latter-day". This is the spelling used by the LDS Church today in any format other than all caps, where the standard is then "LATTER-DAY". I am going to correct it one more time in the article.

Speaking for what I think Tom is getting at: "Latter Day Saint" and "Latter-day Saint" are emphatically not the same thing (check out the Wikipedia entries). "Latter-day Saints" are the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "Latter Day Saints" are any of the members of the various Latter Day Saint churches (including the Community of Christ, Church of Christ (Temple Lot), etc. Does this help clarify why "Latter Day Saint" should be used, and not "Latter-day Saint"? The Jade Knight 05:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

---

Just glancing through this entry, the entire article seems to be about naming conventions. These are important, sure, but how about something a little more informative? This could be reduced to a very small section. The only real issue is that a church follows the person it's named after (see 3 Ne. 27:8), and since Mormons worship Jesus, and not Mormon, their name should reflect that. I am Mormon myself, and I don't know of anyone who is offended by 'Mormon' being used to describe them. Indeed, the only dubious usage of 'Mormon' is the phrase 'Mormon Church,' since if you call me 'Mormon' you imply that I follow that prophet, and since that doesn't mean I worship him, that's fine.

Also, those smaller denominations, although they probably don't much mind being called Mormon, would probably prefer we not use 'Mormon' to describe them, except in passing, as that word has come to refer almost exclusively to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The article is not about the Church, but rather the term "Mormon." See articles about the Church if you want information about the church. -Visorstuff 22:44, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

LDS Church style guidelines

Removed from the article (wikipedia is not a usage quide):

The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.

While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When writing about the Church, please follow these guidelines:

In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Please avoid the use of "Mormon Church," "LDS Church" or "the Church of the Latter-day Saints."

When a shortened reference is needed, the terms "the Church" or "the Church of Jesus Christ" are encouraged.

When referring to Church members, the term "Latter-day Saints" is preferred, though "Mormons" is acceptable.

"Mormon" is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon, Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Mormon Trail, or when used as an adjective in such expressions as "Mormon Pioneers."

The term "Mormonism" is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms "Mormons," "Mormon fundamentalist," "Mormon dissidents," etc., are incorrect. The Associated Press Style Guide notes: "The term 'Mormon' is not properly applied to the other ... churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith's death."

Despite the church's preference, the term "Mormon" is also used, especially by some scholars, to refer to a follower of any one of the various groups descended from Joseph Smith; see Mormons.

If the above is rewritten some of this might be put back into the main article. --maveric149

Mormon vs. Mormonism

There are so many articles, now, with the word "Mormonism" in their title (see, e.g., Restoration (Mormonism), Priesthood (Mormonism), etc.), that we have to have an actual Mormonism article that explains what Mormonism is! This usage would be in conformance with the widespread usage of the word "Mormonism" in such publications as the oft-cited Encyclopedia of Mormonism. It would also put this article in conformance with Wikipedia standards (as well as other encyclopedias), which prefer titles for religions such as Catholicism, Protestantism, and Methodism, rather than "Catholic", "Protestant", and "Methodist".COGDEN 20:58, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

... But why separate Mormon and Mormonism articles? They seem at first wink redundant, and mergeable... Alai 04:45, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Mormonism)Visorstuff 16:51, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

OK. Do Mormons trace their roots TO Smith or THROUGH Smith? Why the recent change to TO? Aren't all Christian roots traced to Christ? Hawstom 04:23, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Seems like Wikipedia shouldn't be a religious tract (as someone stated earlier) so to seems less controversial, as well as using a small word where it works just as well. KellyCoinGuy Jan 4, 2004

It should be "through" when talking about where mormon's trace their roots. If it was talking about where non-mormon's trace mormon roots, then it could be "TO", but it's not. Mormons trace through roots THROUGH Joseph Smith.

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Article for comparing/contrasting various Mormon sects

Ok, someone (I think Hawstom) edited out my rather admittedly long winded chat about how the various denominations of Mormonism (or restorationist whatever) view the cannonical set of scripture. While I like the first paragraph better for purposes of this article, I'd still like to see the compare and contrast between the various schisms (I think that's a politically correct term nobody would disagree with) somewhere. I just can't think of the right name for the article... Perhaps something like 'Schisms of Mormonism'??? There is a lot of interesting information that should be somewhere, even if not in the main article. Someone suggest a different name if you can think of one. KellyCoinGuy Jan 4, 2004

How about Branches of Mormonism? Q

Kelly, for what purpose? To compare/contrast just the various Mormon sects POV on scriptural cannon? A broad article comparing/contrasting the sameness/difference between the various Mormon sects would be useful. Baptist churchs have split up quite a bit into various denominations...it might be informative to see what has been done on that if anything. B 17:54, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)

The first paragraph as it stands today looks pretty good, though I am still out of the loop on this LDS movement business. I am withholding judgement. Hawstom 04:21, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think that the section Mormon Denominations should be moved to the article on the Latter Day Saint movement. While some of these denominations wouldn't want to be called Mormons, nearly all would consider themselves part of the Latter Day Saint movement. Alternatively, the section could be moved to Latter Day Saint; however, a description of the various major Latter Day Saint denominations seems to more directly answer the question "what is the Latter Day Saint movement?" rather than "what is a Latter Day Saint?", because the movement is about institutions, not people. It most certainly doesn't answer the question "what is a Mormon?" COGDEN 18:13, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK. Hawstom 18:21, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm doing it. COGDEN 18:31, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nice work! Tom 06:12, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Temple picture

Thanks for the nice picture, but what is a temple picture doing in the Mormon article? Can this be moved to an LDS article? Hawstom 19:22, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Israelite doctrine in Mormonism

Hawstom, the Israelite doctrine in Mormonism needs to be in the Mormonism and Judaism article. Please move it. B 03:30, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

Me? :o I wouldn't know where to start. Are you thinking of somebody else, or is my memory just going early? Tom (hawstom) 05:06, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You had already (re)moved the material just before I made the comment. So ignore my comment. —B|Talk 16:09, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Links

Please note that many of the recently-added articles will be moved to appropriate pages due to discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. -Visorstuff 18:29, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An anon just removed the entire Opposing Views section of External Links. I never know what to do about such actions. Tom H. 19:49, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

I just reverted the page back to the previous version. If it was a legitimate change, hopefully they will explain why. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) - Talk 21:41, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not a bad approach.  :-D. Tom H. 22:26, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should make a rule that the Opposing Views section can't be added without the good section from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What do you all say? I'll post a link to this proposition on the Wikiproject. :) Cookiecaper 23:09, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we should tend toward having a little shouting match on every article about Mormonism. We need to standardize the organization of the project and have certain articles that discuss the controversial aspects and contain external links. Other articles should stick to the facts and have neither links to lds.org nor anti sites. We don't want the David Whitmer or Reformed Egyptian article, for example, to be spammed with such links. I suggest we begin on the the project page by making a list of pages that might be contenders for "root" or "core" project article, then work on developing a logical tree of articles that we can refer to to answer such questions as "Where do these links belong?" or "Where does this information belong?" If we get organized enough, we can present that logical structure in a project series box like at Islam, Jesus, and Buddhism. Tom H. 17:13, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

I came back to this page today and I am a bit confused. The title is Mormon, but then all of these links are attached. It seems confusing when I suspect that the majority of readers are just looking for an answer to a simple question. Sometimes we bend over too far to accomodate agendas from individuals with an axe to grind against followers of Mormonism. I recommend a few simple links to major Mormon sites and then delete all the rest, but I may be favorably biased and could accept deleting all links in their entirety. For starters I will delete all but the official LDS site. Storm Rider 21:50, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Without question, delete all. By the way, great work, people. Tom Haws 05:16, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I deleted the remaining External Links. Please see WP:LDS#Requests_for_comment Tom Haws 05:19, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I believe that opposing points of view are critical, not just for this page, but for all pages. Mormonstories 16:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Mormonstories, this article is about the term Mormon, it is not about beliefs, doctrines, etc. If there are sites that are critical of the term "Mormon", but all means cite them. All of the sites you listed are more appropirate to those articles that specifically address the beliefs of the LDS people. My objective was to delete all exterior links to sites that addressed beliefs. I think it appropriate to provide links to other articles within Wiki that address beliefs regardless of POV. Storm Rider 17:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Mormonstories - completely agree, but the "critical" points of view you cited are all related to a specific church not the larger Mormon movement. May want to re-read the article in depth. -Visorstuff 17:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Any thoughts on the comparative religion external link?

http://www.comparative-religion.com/ Comparative Religion seems like a nice enough site. But the link has nothing to do with Mormonism. I'm inclined to view it as spam. If it goes here, I don't understand why it's in the Opposiong Views section. Any thoughts?

Let's remove - Tom - your honors? -Visorstuff 20:35, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

External links format

All the links in the External Links section as simple, meaning that they are not overly long and are generally readable (e.g. http://www.lds.org). The style guide says to leave these links be without formatting them. E.g.:

• The entire canonical scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints online: http://scriptures.lds.org

This makes the links more visible and the article more useful if printed out (in which cases, the links are useless). I propose to change them to the above format. I'd just like some feedback before I make a change which might miff some users. Thoughts? —Frecklefoot 19:51, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ooops, sorry for messing it up. B 20:12, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

All exterior links that are not specifically related to the subject of the article will be deleted. This article is about the definition of MORMON; it is not about the LDS church or any other church. There is no doctrine to attack, support, defend, destroy, proclaim, expound, or anything else. All of those links can be added to those articles where their respective subjects are specifically addressed. We all apprecicate your interest for getting on your soap box (some of us even enjoy reading them), but please understand when it is appropriate to get a soap box and when it is not. Now that's off my chest I will attempt to be calm, again. :)

What about "See also" links to the other branches of the Latter Day Saint movement? They are referenced in the article, but they should also be added to the "See also" section. Just to be fair. Val42 05:40, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Val, that is a good comment and it may reassure those anons who keep inserting exterior links "en masse". If I understand you correctly, your recommend enlarging the SEE ALSO to include a broader range of articles witht the objective of demonstrating all the information available on WIKI. If my understanding is correct, I wholeheartedly agree. Do you want to take a first stab and then we can continue to flesh it out? Storm Rider 05:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I see your sarcasm coming through. This is an article about the term 'Mormon'. There is no doctrine or belief to dispute here, so I see your frustration with those who have been adding 'anti-' links. What I'm saying is that the "See Also" section should include links to other articles related to the term 'Mormon'. I'm additionally saying that since the largest denomination is listed there, we should list the other denominations (that are also listed in the article) or take off the largest denomination. But at least that way, the anti-'s will know where to add their links. (I've been seeing the discussion over there too, so I know that there's currently a debate about how many pro- and anti- links to include.) But I agree that this is a discussion about a topic for which internal wiki links should be made, but unless someone has done a scholarly treatment of the origin or usage of the term 'Mormon', there shouldn't be external links. Val42 13:54, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

It was late at nigh when I "went off"; basically frustration. I don't do well with zealots regardless of position. I need to be more patient with anon's and newbie's and their desire to edit. I still agree with you. Let's add links to those articles that would be helpful to readers and move on. Storm Rider 17:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Quakers

I unfortunately think the recent edits muddy the waters further rather than clarifying, since there is no connection between Mormons and Quakers. The addition of the nuance you added makes it possibly appear that otherwise the groups are the same. Would you consider reverting? Tom Haws 19:42, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Reverted contribution

This was merely a title used to identify those baptised into the church that Joseph Smith, Jr. founded, which was called the 'Church of Christ' from its organization in April 1830, until December 1834, when it was subsequently called the 'Church of Latter Day Saints'. It wasn't until December 1838 that through revelation the church was given the name it has today (See Doctrine and Covenants, section 115, verse 4). Joseph Smith, Jr., on Saturday 20 May 1843, sent a letter to the editor of the Times and Seasons with the statement that the word Mormon means, literally, 'more good' (See History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, vol. 5, p. 400).

I don't see that this adds anything other than information repeated elsewhere, a bit of POV, and a contradiction of the previous assertion that the original connotation was derogatory. Can anyone resolve this, and would anyone care to otherwise salvage from the above? Alai 22:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there is much worth salvaging. The "more good" comment is historically accurate, however, but that is my 2 cents. -Visorstuff 22:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On that basis, I've moved that sentence to the Mormon (prophet) article, which seems the most natural place for it. Certainly seemed a little out of place in this article (esp. the intro). Alai 23:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fundies

Quote: Despite this perspective, the term "Mormon Fundamentalist" is widely used by Latter Day Saints (including members of the LDS church and the fundamentalists themselves) and by people outside the movement.

I realize this is somehwat anecdotal, but as a former (long-time) member of the LDS church, I've *never* heard "Mormon Fundamentalist" used. I've certainly never heard it used in reference to those that were not actually members of the LDS church. "Mormon" is explicitly reserved for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I believe that portion to be inaccurate and will remove it.

This terminology is used by the mainstream press (or at least recently was) in Arizona. Tom Haws 15:08, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite significant sources?

not enough info!

why is there no information regarding the accountability of the church? most not for profits have public information so why doesn't the LDS church publish this information? Why cant I find out tithing revenues? TIME magazined estimated the church tithing revenues @ something like net USD5 billlion/year. There is also no public information on membership on the LDS church-- why I cant find out how many members drop out each year and the number of inactive members? It would be interesting to see the REAL numbers on the LDS church as they boast there numbers in each general conference but provide little other information.

These are great questions. You may want to ask them at WP:LDS talk page and at the LDS Church article's talk page. Sorry the encyclopedia is so voluminous. Tom Haws 14:58, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Every few weeks we seem to get someone who has a metonymic association for the church that he or she thinks should be the metaphor for discussion of the church. Mormonism, as it is defined here, is not a polygamy movement, not a blacks-and-the-priesthood movement, not a garments church, and does not refer to anything that only applies to its subgroup The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Your definition of Mormon is not reflected in the definition this article is describing.--Mrcolj 17:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Temple garments

I'm curious as to why there is no reference to the special underwear that members of the Mormon faith wear aren't touched on here. I'm highly interested as to how the square and compass of Freemasonry appeared on them and also how the initiation degree 'naked left leg' translated across to a hole on the left knee of the undergarments. I would -love- more insight on this from someone who is actively involved or well versed in the LDS church.

Jachin 22:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Probably because both active Mormons and Freemasons consider such discussions offensive. Likewise the use of inflamatory and/or inaccurate phrases. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) - Talk 18:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The subject should be covered in a circumspect manner. This is going to repeatredly surface until we cover it. How is best? Where is best? It may work to decide on a form of reference that can link in many Mormonism articles to the Temple Garment or Temple Endowment article. Tom Haws

I wasn't aware of the Temple Garment or Temple Endowment article. I'm curious as to what the link is between Freemasonry and Mormonism, I've enquired about this at the local lodge yet I've yet to recieve a solid or firm anser.

Wrp103 (Bill Pringle), there is nothing offensive about discussing how a symbol that represents Freemasonry has come to be implemented on the underwear of a religious group, and no Mason I know would have a problem with this being discussed. Also, can you please point out the inflamatory or innacurate phrasing I've committed? My post has no reason to offend, I'm merely seeking answers for a question no one seems to know much about.

Of course there is nothing offensive about talking about the special underwear mormons use. It is a fact, not a joke. Steve Young even discusses it (albiet, hesitently) during an interview207.157.121.50 07:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

Jachin 07:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since temple garments are considered sacred by Mormons, creating a headline of "Magic Underwear" is at least disrespectful, if not inflamatory. I must admit that I wasn't sure if you were a "real" user, or an anon that created a bogus account, since your user page doesn't include anything about you. I suggest you consider that just because someone hasn't answered your question, that may or may not mean they don't know the answer. It is also possible that they don't want to discuss it with you. Of course, you would have to ask someone who is both an endowed Mormon and a Freemason to hope for an answer. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) - Talk 02:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bingo. I'm wear garments, but don't talk about them in public, because I believe God's told me not to. But don't take that to mean I couldn't write a book on the topic. I've have a degree in Latin, have taken Greek, my wife speaks Hebrew, her father was a Biblical Archaeology professor at Hebrew University in Jersualem--so yes, I have all kinds of opinions I could show you from the Bible and other ancient texts. But I could also show you, as you could show me, from the Bible &c. how often the Lord grants blessings or knowledge to someone and then tells him/her not to discuss them publicly, lest they be taken away.--Mrcolj 17:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Here are the articles we should consider pointing to from the "major" articles. And in the appropriate one of these articles, we can explore the concepts you mentioned. Endowment (Mormonism), Temple (Mormonism), Temple garment (Mormonism), Temple garment, Washing and anointing Tom Haws 15:58, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Changed title of section to at least show a little respect. nihon 23:16, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

We definitely need a section that at least mentions these things, calling them magic underwear is not appropriate (even though its basically correct) but we can call them "temple garments" which is what they call them. Just becuase the religion wants to censor information does not mean that it's appropriate to do so. Go look at Scientology. AdamJacobMuller 02:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I do not see a problem in presenting facts about temple garments in LDS specific articles, Mormon is a term that is applied to all churches under the umbrella of the church founded by Joseph Smith. The 2nd biggest church, The Community of Christ, do not have temple garments; it is a nonexistent concept in their church to my knowledge. It would seem better to keep this article generalized in order to meet the needs of the topic and refer them to other articles that specifically address those groups that wear temple garments.

I am curious, AdamJacob, are all people who wear crosses or other religious paraphenallia accused of wearing magical items? Many wearers of such items feel there is an added source of protection in wearing them; specifically the cross and the crucifix. Magical, from a certain perspective, would seem appropriate. However, I would think that would be offensive to most adherents of all religions that wear similar items. When the term magical is used, particularly for a religion that condemns majic, an attempt is being made to slander or belittle the religion. Storm Rider ^(talk) 03:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Degrading a religious article, regardless of how one may view it, as "magical" is just as POV as an adherent claiming that it possesses divine qualities. Keeping it in church-specific articles would do well; even the branches that use temple garments do so differently, I believe. Tijuana Brass 04:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent Vacation to Utah

Just as a side note, I took a recent vacation to Utah on a rafting trip, visiting Arches NP, etc.

"LDS" is commonly used to refer to whether or not one is Mormon; as in "I'm not LDS" or "Oh, she's LDS, so she doesn't drink." So nowadays it's not just a Mormon guideline, but kind of a regional dialect. I leave it to experienced Wiki-ers what to make of that. I hadn't heard anyone use "LDS" as shorthand before I visited Utah.

Being LDS, I can say that we use the term regularly outside of Utah too, and so far I have lived in Canada, Michigan, Texas, California, Colorado, and Oklahoma.

I am LDS as well and have lived my entire life in Canada (specifically BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan). LDS is in very common use here. -- Kmsiever 18:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Mormons in Popular Culture

Great, NPOV, fun content! If not belong here, let's be sure to put it somewhere. However, I can see how it might belong here. After all, it is about Mormon (though we LDS know the stereotypes are really from the LDS Church). Tom Haws 16:31, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I removed " Another refernce is the film Orgazmo."

• Let's take care to make high-quality edits.
• Let's organize our contributions well.
• There is not currently a list of popular literature that portrays Mormons. Orgazmo (I guess) could go in such a list, but not where it was placed.
• Let's do this right by stubbing a section or finding the right article.

-Tom Haws 14:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

the reference doesnt insult the culture, and it makes them more fullcharctors then the usual moronnc people ive noticed, so why is it offensive? (regrading ograzmo) Gabrielsimon 15:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If such a list is compiled, it should also contain a mention of "A Study in Scarlet", the original Sherlock Holmes novel, in which the motive for the murder turns out to lie buried in the victims Mormon past. Donald Ian Rankin 10:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, C.S. Lewis in "Prince Caspian". The story opens talking about his parents who didn't smoke, drink, and wore funny underwear. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) - Talk 14:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Gabe, this is not a place to put everything that one has heard about Mormons; specific characters, comments, etc., but rather it is a paragraph that should describe how generally Mormons are perceived in popular culture. Feel free to edit other items in the paragraph, but keep it general. For example, you could describe that Mormons are generally shown as rather naieve, overly sweet, family people who have two years supply of canned food underneath their sofa and in the their closets (this is an example, I think you get the drift). Good luck. --Storm Rider 03:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

What is the difference between the "Mormons as public figures and in popular culture" section and List of Latter-day Saints? --Kmsiever 19:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Initially, it was a few short sentences on extremely prominent Mormons and their impact/contributions to their fields. I think it's growing to be more of a list of famous Mormons, however. I wouldn't mind if it were shortened. The Jade Knight 05:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Other Prominent Figures

Jade Knight, is there some reason why you feel this article can't contain references to prominent businesspeople and politicans in addition to producers, actors, directors, and authors? DavidBailey 05:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I have little against such references; you'll notice that I've added the part about authors, and I left the references to Gladys Knight and Donny Osmond. However, I feel that the purpose of the article is not to list prominent Mormons (that is what the List of Latter-day Saints is for). I do not particularly feel that businessmen or politicians need to be mentioned, though I will certainly defer if there is consensus otherwise. However, I do not think we should mention Latter-day Saints who have not warranted their own Wikipedia entry (such as Jenny Oaks Baker). The Jade Knight 07:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand that this article does not need to list all Mormons, but the ones that are well-known and influencers in society ought to be part of the article. For instance, Mitt Romney was the President of the Winter Olympics of 2002, the current governor of Massachusetts, and very likely Presidential candidate. I think that qualifies him to at least be in a list of notable Mormons, don't you. The others I listed are also well-known in society. Perhaps politics and business doesn't seem as important in your sphere, but it certainly is for many others, while entertainers are far less important. In an encyclopedia article, it makes sense to include the names of those who are influencing society and are prominent enough to be well known. My inclusion of Jenny Oaks Baker was to give some variety to the list of musically-talented LDS that are listed. I was actually going to create a Wikipedia entry for her because she is well known within the professional orchestral musician circuit, after all being first violinist in the National Symphony Orchestra is no small feat, and very well known in LDS circles as a talented musician and daughter of LDS General Authority and Member of the Quorum of the Twelve, Dallin H. Oaks. DavidBailey 18:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

"a" vs. "an"

An anonymous user just changed "... is a colloquial ..." to "... is an colloquial ..." in the first paragraph. This seems incorrect to me. This may be some correct usage of which I am not aware. Can someone confirm or deny this? Meanwhile, I'm going to change it back. Val42 04:04, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Article is lacking serious mention of Mormon polygyny

This article, as well as the Wikipedia article for "Latter Day Saint" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint) are lacking basic information concerning the infamous history of polygyny/polygamy within the group. It is possible that the article's authors omitted much of this information because it no longer agrees with the church's beliefs. To emphasize the importance of polygyny in the early church, consider that Mormon founder Joseph Smith was martyred for this belief, as well as leader Brigham Young declaring that: "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." The practice of polygyny was such a core value for the church that change did not happen until the US federal government threatened to repossess the church's land.

Although the church no longer tolerates the activity, polygyny is commonly a main association that non-Mormons have with the LDS Church. A Google search for "Mormon Polygamy" results in over 250,000 hits. A non-secular basic encyclopedia article about the Mormon Church needs to include more factual historical information regarding polygyny for this church.

More information can be found here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_poly.htm 216.222.31.203 08:45, October 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your inquiry. That is a good point, but irrelevant for this article. Such an edit would be appropriate for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and it is actually in the intro summary of that article) or the hyphenated Latter-day Saint, but not Mormon or (unhyphenated) Latter Day Saint as those encorporate a much broader group called the Latter Day Saint movement most of which did not accept Smith's polygamy teachings even at the time. The entire Latter Day Saint movement consists of about 20 million adherents, 12.5 million of which belong to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the others to different Latter Day Saint or Mormon sects. There are dozens if not hundreds of splinter groups claiming that certain teachings were wrong - either by Smith or Young or others. You may want to read Succession crisis. Please note that all Latter-day Saints are Mormons, but not all Mormons are Latter-day Saints. Both are Latter Day Saints. I know this may seem confusing, but this is the historial scholarship standard or convention that we've adopted on the Wikipedia. Think of it this way: Latter-day Saint=a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Mormon=believer in the book of Mormon and/or the culture and history of the church Smith organized; Latter Day Saint=anyone who believes that Smith was at one time a prophet of God or was inspired to organize/restore a church; Latter Day Saint movement= the big group of people who claim some type of succession through Joseph Smith, Jr whether Strangite, FLDS, Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite) or otherwise. Oversimplified but adequate for this discussion. Hope this helps. -Visorstuff 19:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

I wonder if there is a way, considering that the history page consists primarily of vandalism and subsequent reverts, to tag the article so that it can only be edited by those with Wikipedia accounts? I believe this might cut down significantly on the vandalism to this article, which seems to be a hot-spot for it. The Jade Knight 08:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, there isn't a way to block anonymous editing, but an administrator can prevent all editing for a short time. It is hoped that in this time the vandal(s) will have moved on. In dealing with vandals, follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress and Wikipedia:Vandalism#Dealing with vandalism. If you need an admin, see Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. You may want to check out Wikipedia: Administrator's reading list for more information on how vandals are handled. Cookiecaper 08:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I think there is a way to limit editing to only those who have been contributors to an article. It seems like I recently saw such a situation, the first time ever, on either theJesus or Christianity articles. I can't remember which one, but I remember seeing a notice indicating that the article had been limited to recent editors so as to prevent vandalism. I am not an admin so the process is beyond me. I would bring it up to some of our more senior admins for their input for a definitive answer. Storm Rider 09:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Purpose of this article

I think that we need to take time to redefine the scope of this article. I think that this article should:

1. Provide a link to the disambiguation page
2. Discuss the origin of the word
3. Discuss the meaning of the word
   1. Historical
   2. Current
   3. Distinction from "Latter Day Saint"
      1. Which LDS denominations are "Mormon"
      2. Which LDS denominations are not "Mormon"
   4. Usage by CoJCoLDS
4. Distinction from other religious groups

I don't think that (what is turning in to a list of) prominent LDS people should be here. I think that this page should make it clear that this term does not identify any particular denomination and that beliefs of any denominations are not discussed here. And this rewrite should be done in concert with the "Mormonism" article. Both articles have attracted new readers/editors that think that these articles are about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'll even do it, if there are no objections. Val42 05:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with your proposal. I mentioned that at most "this is not a place to put everything that one has heard about Mormons; specific characters, comments, etc., but rather it is a paragraph that should describe how generally Mormons are perceived in popular culture." Though I have since recently begun to edit that section, I believe your outline would improve the article. Thank you for taking a stand. Storm Rider 08:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Also agree. However, I think something should be included about Mormon culture (apart from the religions). The Jade Knight 08:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I think Mormons as public figures and in popular culture either needs to become its own article, or needs to be scaled massively down. Can we agree on a focus for this article to keep things more relevant? The Jade Knight 01:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it needs to be removed entirely, except for the link to the list of prominent Mormons. --Kmsiever 14:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Calling us "Mormons"

The reason why we refer to ourselves as "Mormons" when talking to those not of our faith is simply because many people don't know what we are talking about when we say The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Bisric 23:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Translation Methods

There isnt much mention in this article about joseph smith translating the two plates with the seer stone, i thought that was quite an interesting part of it, yet seems to have been missed out. 84.9.209.110 03:30, 21 april 2006 (UTC)

uncyclopedia.org

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Mormon

Have a laugh, at your own expense :)

My favorite: "When Mormons die they will be the only people in heaven because they wear the kind of underwear that God likes." Travb 06:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)