Talk: List of British monarchs (Archive 1) (Gone missing? Resurrected.)
Its that old 'UK' or 'not UK' problem again. All my research and fellow academics with whom I consulted agreed that the term 'united kingdom' in the 1707 Act was not intended as a name but as a description. The name was clearly and umabiguously the 'Kingdom of Great Britain', which was a united kingdom, not the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom only came in with the Irish Act of Union of 1801, which brought Ireland and GB together to form the UK. After checking with various sources and academics on the issue, I changed the titles so that monarchs from 1707-1800 are described as GB, and ones (including George III, who occured in both periods) from 1801 are described as UK. I adapted the links accordingly. It is more accurate and also clearly marks the divisions between the various states and monarchical titles that weren't clear before, when the description uk was treated as United Kingdom state, when it wasn't.
PS - otherwise, a superb set of pages and entries. JTD 06:03 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)
Derek, I've double-check with 8 historians, including 2 professors of history, and reference books that deal specificially with title, as well as with sources in the Royal Household. The words 'united kingdom' in the 1707 Act were intended are are regarded as descriptive, not as authorising the use of that name for the kingdom formed by that Act. For yet more evidence. see page 1198 (index) of Norman Davies, The Isles (Macmillan 1999). While the author there admits a number of errors in title cropped up where others did the cross-referencing in the index, his explicit references to the titles of Anne and the four Georges is clear. If Wikipedia can't get its basic references to royal titles correct, it will damage its own reputation as a source book. JTD 19:33 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
- Fine JTD. I'll check the reference out but it was published in 1999 not in 1707 or thereabouts, so it's not what I'd call a source. It's an author's interpretation of the sources (otherwise known as a history book). I'd expect it to contain reasoned argument and reference to source documents, so of course it may well contain the convincing argument that I'm looking for. Thanks -- Derek Ross 19:44 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
- PS. I wouldn't say that Wikipedia is a source (unless you need a source for the History of Wikipedia), just a reference 'book'.
Derek, believe me I'm hooked on sources, not history books (though I am in the process of writing one, relying on sources, which will contradict many Irish history books). His book references are just an example. What I meant in describing Wiki as a source is in the non-professional historian's understanding of a sourcebook, simply as a place to get a basic understanding and basic facts. But we also have to use most common used accurate terms, and GB is the most common used name for the kingdom between 1707 and 1801, when the UK became the unambiguous name of the state. 'England', though the most widely used term, is as I'm sure you'll agree, completely inaccurate and therefore absolutely wrong. JTD 20:39 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
I've changed the date of Charles II becoming king of England, based on the date of his coronation. However I'm aware that it could also be based on the date of his being proclaimed king (and possibly was). Coronation seems better to me, as a crowned king is indisputably king, but I think it should be discussed. -- Derek Ross
A monarch becomes monarch the moment his/her predecessor dies or abdicates. A coronation is a popular affirmation of a status already attained. It also amounts to a sacred anointing. Edward VIII for example was not crowned, yet he became king the moment his father George V died. Popes too were crowned up until John Paul I. Neither he nor John Paul II were crowned with the Papal Tiara yet were pope. It is different to, say, the inauguration of the President of the United States or the President of Ireland, where the inauguration ceremony is the entry point. In theory, King Charles III could dispense with the coronation when he becomes king; Britain is the only major monarchy in the world still to have a coronation. William IV did want to abandon the ceremony altogether, but didn't get his way. JtdIrL 09:34 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, you're right, JTD. If monarchs weren't monarchs until they were crowned, we would have many periods of a year or more in British history when there was no monarch! Deb 15:22 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
- That's just the point, Deb. There are periods of a year or more in British history when there was no monarch, according to our list. The two most notable periods being after the death of Margaret in 1290 and of Charles in 1649, there are gaps. Going by what JTD says above Charles II became king of both nations in 1649, not in 1651 or in 1660 as we currently say, but the situation seems rather more complicated after Margaret's death, since there were several rival claimants. What do we do there ? -- Derek Ross 21:47 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, yes, there are those gaps, but they are unique. What I meant was that, if you only accepted that a monarch was officially a monarch after they had been crowned (which seemed to be what you were saying), then there would be a gap almost every time the crown changes hands. Charles II was formally restored to the throne on May 29, 1660, and that's normally accepted as the beginning of his reign. I don't go for the 1649 date, although you could argue that he was king of Scotland because they accepted him and crowned him long before England did. I don't think JTD is 100% correct, because the succession has to have the authority of parliament in order to be valid. Deb 21:58 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
The reason for the gaps is that there were several claimants and nobody was sure who to regard as the monarch. Technically, there shouldn't be, as whomever turned out to be the vaid monarch became so the moment the previous monarch died or abdicated. The gaps simply are historians' way of stressing that no-one for a particular period of time was sure who was the real monarch. But as to the issue of is succession automatic, the answer is 100% yes. A monarch succeeds immediately. They are confirmed by an Accession Council (special meeting of the Privy Council) at which such issues as their nomenclature is announced. A year later, they go through the symbolic ritual of coronation, which amounts to their annointment by God (or one of his clergymen, on his behalf). But Charles will become king the moment Elizabeth II dies. Elizabeth became queen hours before she or anyone else knew it, the moment George VI died. That's where the phrase 'the King is dead. Long Live the King' comes from. That is why, also there was such a bruhaha over the flying of the Royal Standard over Buckingham Palace at full mast (or as the Yanks would say, staff) after Diana's death. The standard is never flown at half mast because there always is a monarch. So it flew on the last day of George VI's life honouring him, the next day at full mast honouring Queen Elizabeth II (just not where he died, as there was no longer a monarch there. Instead it was (or if they had one with them, would have been flown, over the treetops hotel that Elizabeth was in on the morning she discovered her father had died.) Technically Charles II became King Charles II the moment King Charles I was executed. But he didn't have a kingdom he could legally rule over until 1660 with the restoration. So 1660 doesn't mark the start of his reign, merely his restoration to the throne, having been monarch in exile for 11 years.
Actually, Deb, the sucession is automatic, though parliament as it did in the Glorious Revolution can retrospectively change it, when it offered the throne to William and Mary and not James VII/II's young son. But it doesn't go before parliament or require parliamentary approval. Parliament can intervene but except in extraordinary circumstances doesn't. The standard routine is that parliament is simply 'informed' that a new accession has taken place. JtdIrL 22:07 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
- I think what you say is true now, but may not have been true before the Act of Succession existed. Take Elizabeth I of England. Deb 22:10 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
Yes and no. Parliament's power ebbed and flowed over the years. Sometimes monarchs sidelined and ignored it and it dared not intervene. Other times, weakened monarchs and confusion over sucession increased parliament's role vis-a-vis the monarchy. JtdIrL 22:33 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
- It's not a question that can have a simple yes or no answer, at least not at the period we're talking about. Before the Act of Succession, the monarch had the power to name an heir, but whether that heir came to the throne tended to depend on whether he or she got in ahead of the other claimants. In Charles's case, I'm not sure he would have been so rash as to date his reign from 1649 when his restoration depended on the will of Parliament which had invited him back. Deb 17:45 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
The concept of a 'parliamentary monarchy' as such did not exist then. The belief in the divine right of kings saw the 'making' of a king as an 'act of God', not an act of parliament. That's why for example, while people focus on the 'crowning' part of the coronation ceremony, the real significant bit is the 'annointing' which indicates a monarch's role as the equivalent of Holy Orders; that's one reason why there is no question of Elizabeth II abdicating, contrary to misinformed media speculation. She sees herself as a god-created monarch, annointed as such, it being God's decision, not hers, as to when she vacates the throne. Parliament was involved on occasion, but the monarch was still monarch 'by the grace of God', not 'on the authority of parliament'. The reason why Britain's monarchy has survived, whereas others haven't, is that Britain's monarchs and constitutional structures were sufficiently flexible to cope with situations, whereas other constitutions and royal families were excessively rigid. The general theory is that Charles de jure became king in 1649, but became de facto monarch in 1660. Or to put it another way, he inherited a throneless crown in 1649, and the throne in 1660 after it had been reestablished. But Charles was called king by his supporters from 1649, in the same way as french royalists regarded Louis XVI's dauphin as Louix XVII following his father's death. (Or indeed as French royalists regarded the duc de Bordeaux (later Comte de Chambord) as 'Henry V' from 1840 until his death in the 1880s, even though he never sat on the French throne, indeed was stupid enough to turn it down in the early 1870s because he would not accept the tricolour - but then he was so stupid he reportedly couldn't tie his own laces!!!) But in no sense constitutionally was the English/British crown inherited 'subject to parliamentary approval'. But on occasion, in an outbreak of realpolitik parliament could intervene. But constitutionally, the concept of parliamentary monarchy really only emerged when parliament offered the throne to William and Mary, and then on the basis that James VII/II had supposedly abdicate, they changing the Order of Succession to perpetuate a protestant monarchy by excluding the Catholic first in line, the Duke of Cornwall, James' baby son and passing the throne on jointly to the second-in-line and her husband. JtdIrL 19:06 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC) JtdIrL 19:08 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
List of monarchs of England still exists and mainly overlaps this page. This article seems to be getting somewhat long and difficult to read. Should a list also be transferred to List of monarchs of Scotland and the lists on this page for England and Scotland before 1604 be simply replaced with a link, as is now done for Wales? --Jiang 05:42 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think the the England and Scotland lists should each go up to the Union in 1707, but otherwise I don't have a problem with that. john 08:02 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Sounds okay to me. Deb 11:36 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I don't see how that latest addition to the article can be correct. It seems to me that the English ordinal is used in all cases, and the results are not the same - for example, there was no Elizabeth I of Scotland. But in any case, it's not at all clear what is meant by the statement. Deb 12:02, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
We can make the article easier to read if we adopt the fomat used on the [French page]. Lord Emsworth 00:35, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. The ability to see the parallel Enlgish and Scottish monarchs is good. RickK 00:42, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Yes, I like that layout too. -- Derek Ross 02:32, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- See the page User:Lord Emsworth/British monarchs
- That looks superb. One point is that while it ceased to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in the 1920s, it wasn't until 1949 that the King ceased to be King of Great Britain and Ireland, and the actual change in titulary wasn't fully implemented until the Queen's coronation in 1953. john 03:26, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Would it be overkill to add in the list of people who would have been Monarch had Edward VI's illegitimacy been taken seriously? (i.e. the line through Henry X and Barbara I?) -- Darac 10:55, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it would be overkill. We don't even include the Jacobite succession on this page -- although it is listed elsewhere. The succession you mention would have an enormous effect, since the thrones of England and Scotland would no longer have been united at the time they were. Another point against adding it, is that these alternate lines of succession are highly speculative since who is to say that later generations of the alternate line would have married as they did given that they were monarchs rather than subjects. -- Derek Ross
And, um, can we also note that the only monarchs invalidated by Edward IV's supposed illegitimacy are Edward IV himself and his son. Henry VII's claim to the throne was not based upon his marriage to Elizabeth of York (he was already king for several months before he married her), and so the claims of his descendants aren't affected by this silly argument. Plus, as I understand it, the argument is based on the fact that the Duke of York was not where his wife was exactly 9 months before Edward IV's birth. He was in the same town as her both a few weeks before this and a few weeks after. Given that babies are rarely born exactly 9 months after conception, this is pretty stupid. Furthermore, paternity in this case is not a biological, but a legal question, and Edward IV was legally the son of Richard, Duke of York, whoever his biological father may have been. In any event, the purpose of this page is to list de facto monarchs, not tenuous alternative claims. Otherwise it should list the heirs of Ethelred the Unready (currently Princess Alicia of Bourbon-Parma), the heirs of Mary Tudor, Henry VIII's younger sister, who ought have inherited in 1603 (I believe Lady Kinloss is the current claimant on this, but am uncertain), the Jacobite line (currently represented by Duke Franz of Bavaria), and so on and so forth. john 19:05, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Edgar Ætheling
Should Edgar Ætheling be included in the list? He's hardly ever included normally. Infact I don't think I've ever seen him included. What about Lady Jane Grey? Should she be on the list? If we include them, then what about James III of England are there other candidates ?
- I don't think Edgar Aetheling, Jane Grey, or the Old Pretender should be included, just as Napoleon II, Louis XIX, and Henri V are not normally included in lists of French monarchs. The "official" post facto record does not count these people as having been reigning monarchs. The closest is Jane Grey, who is sometimes listed, but is more usually an asterix. Jane never actually asserted control over most of England, was never crowned, and was not legally the heir under the will of Henry VIII, which had statutory authority (unlike that of his son, which was thus illegal). john k 01:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm suprised his inclusion in the list has remained undiscussed for such a long time. Mintguy (T) 01:40, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'd suggest footnotes for both the Aetheling and Jane Grey be referred to in footnotes rather than the main tables. john k 02:04, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)