Ed, you are playing with fire again. Your history here is mistaken in several important points, and most of all the article is not NPOV. The Mandate system was a means of dispensing with the colonial territories of defeated powers after World War I. Independence was offered by Britain twice: once to the Arabs, once to the Jews. It was part of a larger partition scheme of the Ottoman Empire, and included Syria and Lebanon (which went to France). Of course, there is also the colonial question: what right does a colonial power have to determine the future of land it occupies. I am curious as to the source for Jordan being called Palestine. In general, fix this up or revert, but as the article is now, it is inaccurate and cannot stay like that. Danny
- Thanks for pointing out the historical inaccuracies and for the NPOV warning. --Ed
Ed, a reasonable suggestion. Please spend some time researching the issues here before cutting and pasting bits and pieces of encyclopedia articles. It is making a joke out of a topic that is of life-and-death importance for both Palestinians and Israelis. Danny
I have moved into this article some history from another article, because I think it serves readers better here. This article is linked by 8 or 9 other articles. I never would have found it if I hadn't been trying to create it.
I have removed my speculation about Palestinian homeland and Jordan, as on reflection it seems to be entirely my own POV. Ed Poor
The page is currently being Merged (most of the material coming from over Palestine), I expect to finish it within 12-24 hours. --Uri
Moved above note. --Ed Poor 14:14 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)
The duplication here with 1947 UN Partition Plan displeases me. Martin
I rewrote the part about Palestine versus Transjordan to make it more accurate and (I hope) less POV. Many other parts of the article need corrective surgery and I'll get to that eventually. -- zero UTC 16:00 July 26 2003.
Sorry to whoever was editing the "Holocaust" section at the same time as I was rewriting it. I think my version is more detailed and more accurate. -- zero UTC 10:54 Aug 4 2003.
The Palestinians had prior to World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land although they might own the trees that grew on that land. When Jews, who grew up with European laws, purchased land they did not always realise that the villagers on that land owned the trees. - I would like to see a reference for this because I have read many history books on this subject and never heard about this issue of ownership of trees. In fact land sales were regulated by the British authorities who followed the Ottoman laws except in some cases where they ammended them to give the authorities more power. This article needs a section describing the land tenure issue in more detail, since it was one of the key causes of conflict during the mandate. I put it on my (long) list of things to do. -- zero UTC 13:55 7 Aug 2003.
Zero0000 added "The British authorities were also paranoid about the possibility of German agents entering Palestine, though there is apparently not a single known example."
- I am not disputing this addition at all, but I am flabbergasted. I had no idea that the British had any such concerns. Also, their thinking seems illogical. Palestine wasn't that hard for an individual or three to get into; putting spies in with Jewish immigrants seems so unncessary. Since the British stopped legal Jewish immigration...wouldn't the presumed German spies simply buy a train and boat ticket on their own, and travel into the country individually? I can't imagine how the British thought that this would stop the presumed (and non-existent) German infilitration. That's crazy. As Charlton Heston said in Planet of the Apes "Its a madhouse, a madhouse!" RK 13:36, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it is important enough to put in the article but I thought it was interesting. There was some senior official in London who wrote memo after memo on it. One reason for the paranoia was that most of the refugee boats up until Germany reversed its emigration policy (1940? 1941?) were organised with German cooperation. By "not a single example" I meant that no German spy is known to have come to Palestine in a refugee boat. However, they couldn't come directly either (there was a war on and nobody from an Axis country was admitted readily). Probably over the border from Vichy Syria would have been the best shot. I bet there were actually many such spies in Palestine as Germany was planning to invade the place. --zero 15:04, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have just read the League of Nations document creating the Mandate for the first time. I did not know that the Preamble and Article 2 (Article 1 confers powers upon the Mandatory Power, Great Britain) well...the Preamble says (in part): well better to read it yourself and Article 2 says: "The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion." Which reads that Britain is required to create a Jewish nation home with civil and religious rights for all inhabitants. Sounds like create a democracy, as one is understood in the West. Goodness! The Brits succeeded in fulfilling the Mandate in spite of themselves! What we have now is rather wishy-washy on the central purpose of the Mandate. Should the stated purpose of the Mandate be stated explicitly on the page British Mandate of Palestine? OneVoice 23:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Self-determination doesn't imply democracy (at least, as known in the US). Monarchy and other forms of government also qualify (as happened under the Transjordan mandate). Remember the deliberate ambiguity and Britain disclaiming an intent to have an independent Jewish state. Britain didn't succeed in fulfilling the mandate - we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights. Jamesday 14:16, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Jamesday, you are right that "we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights." But such might be rather easy to obtain. Should the Palestinians call for the annexnation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank to Israel and Israeli citizenship for all Arabs living within these new boundaries of Israel, we would have that situation but for the name of the country. Given the number of Arabs and the democratic nature of Israel's government "safeguarded civil and religous rights" would follow within a generation, if not less. At times, one wonders why the Arabs do not pursue such a policy as the easiest method of obtaining their goals. OneVoice 11:29, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That single state would have an Arab majority, so it's probably not a solution which can happen, because Israel wouldn't accept it in the near future. Israel already has a massive problem in its future, for even with no changes it appears that it will have an Arab majority in a few decades. One of the more troubling long term questions is whether Israel will use an apartheid system to avoid that Arab voting majority or not. Ultimately, unless there's a pogrom or forced exodus of more Arabs from Israel, it will have an Arab majority, so something needs to be done and the best something is a peaceful and prosperous Palestinian Arab neighbor and time for tensions to fall. Seems very unlikely that Likud will achieve that result, though Labor might. Jamesday 04:53, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
JamesDay, I dont feel that its my place to advocate one solution or path over another. I am not an actor on the stage, my opinion counts for nothing in framing the course of events in this conflict. I am not a member or representative of any government involved. Rather, I am trying to make available on Wikipedia the full range of paths, peace processes, proposals, etc., that have been suggested by those that do influence the course of events, so that people reading Wikipedia can form their own opinions with as little outside or wikipedia editorial comment as possible.
You are correct that given current demographics it appears that the Arabs either would have a majority in that "one state" or soon form a majority. I say appears, because the future has a way of surprising people and confounding the experts. Who would have forseen the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union or the outcome of either the 1948 or 1967 war. Post-facto many folks write about the "inevitability" of events.
Statements of apartheid, seem to prejudge a response to a situation that has not occurred. That's a judgement twice removed (the future response to a future event). I shudder to even think of making such statements.
Regarding which political party can acheive a solution, some suggest that only Labor could do so. Nixon went to China, Begin went to Camp David, Sharon removed communities from the Sinai, Rabin was know as "Mr Security". (I use communities in light of the fact that I live a "community/city/settlement" in a country that has displaced its native population, waged numerous wars that have had the effect of expanding the territorial bounds of the country, and studiously choses not to dwell on the fact. Not that there is much to do about it at this point in time.) It may well be more likely that Likud can take such a step than Labor due to its record and reluctance.
Regarding a "pogrom" (perhaps massacre or ethnic cleansing would be more appropriate) or forced exodus, we are in the realm of disputed history that will be used to cite a precedent of behavior. Before discussing that, the history dispute would need to be resolved. I doubt that will happen in those years that are left before me.
A peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state is something that many would very much desire to see arise. This requires the cooperation of the populace. Groups within a society dedicated to a goal and willing to use force in the attempt to acheive that goal has a very good chance of preventing a state from obtaining those characteristics. This is once reason that some argue that the Palestinians must confront elements within their own society before a state should be established. OneVoice 15:26, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. It's a complex problem. I hope for the best but with a great deal of caution in my expectations. Jamesday 11:54, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To OneVoice:
A "peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state" sounds a lot like the Kingdom of Jordan: it's peaceful, it's prosperous, it's in Palestine and it's chock full of Arabs. What more do you want? --Uncle Ed 15:53, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Ed:
I suppose they want one on the other side of the river? -Penta 23:52, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How about one that they don't have to emigrate to be part of? One that Palestinians (as opposed to Bedouin, as in Jordan) rule would no doubt also be nice. - 15:58, 22 March 2004.