Talk:Jonestown

I have to ask: does the "CIA involvement" section really belong into a serious entry? --bas

• If you take note of one of the external links at CNN.com, the question on CIA involvement really was a serious issue. This was also mentioned in a book on cults. (see bibliography, book #3) --Andylkl 05:51, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I think that you are correct that "CIA involvment" needs to be a section, but it needs to be integrated better. Right now, it just seems to be a stub tacked onto an otherwise excellent article. But, I am not good enough to figure out how to do it yet. Can anyone else help? --Simon

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There are four different articles on this topic:

• Jim Jones
• Jonestown
• Jonestown mass suicide now a redirect to Jonestown
• People's Temple

Should they be merged?

Merged Jonestown mass suicide with Jonestown and moved text about the temple to People's Temple. So now we have articles just on the person (Jim Jones), place (Jonestown) and thing (People's Temple). If the "Mass Suicide" section of this page gets long enough, then we can summarize that event here and put the details at Jonestown mass suicide. But there isn't enough text for that yet. --mav 07:21, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think the current situation works well. Perhaps we should remove it from the Duplicate list? --Wolf530 02:29, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it's a little odd that the article about historical events is listed under the name of the place they occurred. I know some things are known for where they happened (Nuremburg, Hiroshima, etc.), but I really tend to think of the events at Jonestown as "that time the cult got poisoned with Kool-Aid". Brendan62442 13:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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I reverted the changes in which a user added that "Some believe the victims were injected with poison." While that may be the case, the reader is still left wondering: Who believes that? Where did this rumor begin? What is the evidence of this? Unless the user would like to contribute to answering these questions, I don't believe that statement belongs in the article. --Wolf530 06:19, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

That particular quote "injected with a poison" is the name of a Lords of Acid song in which a number of samples regarding Jonestown are used. These samples probably come from a :zoviet*france: song called "Ram" from the album "Collusion". It opens with a radio evangelist saying, with passion, "... I was Jim Jones' attorney" and going on to blame Jim Jones' followers for following a man instead of Jesus, and claiming that "this was a mass murder, not a mass suicide, like the world was brainwashed into thinking". These are the only words on the entire album, apart from several looped words on another track.

I have no idea where this information belongs; probably on the pages of the relevant musicians (although they are so obscure they do not as yet have pages). And yet somehow it seems relevant here, perhaps to the conspiracy theories. --Andrew 07:06, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

Although "Injected With A Poison" is a song by Praga Khan, it was not released under the group Lords of Acid - it is self-attributed. I don't know the source of the sample, however. -- Chris

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• • • NOTE: I'm not a regular contributer but the "injected with a poison" thing originated from an medical examination conducted in Guyana, it was merely referenced in the song. Here's the quote and the link:

"The results of pathology examinations conducted by Guyanese coroner Leslie Mootoo however, revealed his belief that as many as 700 of the victims were murders, not suicides. Mootoo claims that in a 32-hour period he, and his assistants, examined the bodies of 137 victims. They had all been injected with cyanide in areas of their bodies, which could not have been reached by their own hand, such as between the shoulder blades; many other victims had been shot. Charles Huff, one of the seven Green Berets who were the first American troops on the scene following the massacre, claimed that “We saw many bullet wounds as well as wounds from crossbow bolts.” Those who were shot appeared to have been running toward the jungle, away from the compound, at the time they were shot."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/jonestown/connections_5.html?sect=8

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Disputed warning

There were hardly armed guards. There were only 37 weapons found on a total of 930 inhabitants. Andries 21:34, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to back that up? --Andylkl 07:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Mary McCormick Maaga's book Hearing the Voices of Jonestow (that has to be read with some caution because it has a feminist and an anti-anti-cult slant) ISBN 0-8156-0515-3 but I read it online too, somewhere on Alternative considerations etc.. The book may be fully accurate though: after all even the worst cult is often more complicated and more normal than most people and many anti-cult activists think. critical book review by the excellent online magazine salon.com Andries 09:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This realisation just "blipped" into my head last night: If there were no armed guards there, then who started out the shootout at the airstrip? --Andylkl 14:23, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

I wrote hardly. Most of the armed guards were away during the suicide because they belonged to a basketball team that was playing somewhere else. In total, 85 people of Jonestown survived the mass suicide. Andries 14:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Okay, based on the info at hand, there were 2 squads of guards at that day, one in the basketball game (obviously unarmed), the other started the shootout and later accompanied Jones for the mass suicide. Btw, the basketball players were just assumed to be part of the guards [1]. But regardless of the number of guards, there still were armed guards in the area. Call me thick, but I don't quite understand what exactly is the problem here? --Andylkl 18:24, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Stephan Jones, his natural son, asserted in the book that people did not need "help" from armed guards because they wanted to be loyal to the group and not be a traitor. Andries 18:34, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

His relationship with his father was not good, he might have not get what he asserted for. Souces from google [2] indicated that there indeed were armed guards there. Might be few, but they were still there. --Andylkl 20:00, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

I still think that the current article is somewhat misleading about people who alllegedly were hunted down by armed guards. [3] Andries 15:41, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There are several other mistakes, inaccuracies, doubtful opinions in the article.

• After Indianapolis Peoples Temple did not move to San Francisco directly but first somewhere else in California (I forgot where)Andries 10:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Okay, will research on that part. --Andylkl 14:27, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

It was Redwood Valley, California. Andries 14:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, it was also considered in Mendocino County, California, google searches have indicated that Redwood Valley is in Mendocino County. --Andylkl 18:45, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Added the piece of information. The dispute over this point is settled. --Andylkl 20:00, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

• They went to Guyana so that Jones could continue to have absolute power. This seems dounbtful to me. Jones lost power in Jonestown See charismatic authority. I think they felt threatened by investigations and they thought that Guyana was safe in case of a nuclear attack. Please provide references. Andries 10:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

True Crime: Death Cults (see bibliography #3) --Andylkl 14:23, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)~

My aforementioned book clearly challenges the success in Jones' alleged attempt. I have admit that I have to re-read the book about the question whether this was his intention. Andries 14:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I reread my book. The move to Redwood Valley was to avoid the nuclear fallout in case of a nuclear attack. The move to Jonestown was the one already stated in the article. --Andylkl 18:45, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

After re-reading my book, I have to admit that it does not contradict your version so I retract that dispute. Andries 18:34, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• I do not think that Jonestown was established by Jones. It was established by pioneers in 1974, years before Jones went to live there in 1977 or 1978. Andries 10:14, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You said that you "think" that that fact in the article was inaccurate. How could Jones bought/leased the land from the government if there were residents living on it already? Again, please cite your source. --Andylkl 14:23, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Jonestown was established by members of the peoples temple, not by Jones. Andries 14:44, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jonestown was established by Jones in 1974. The book, CNN [4], and other websites [5] [6] cite that the founding year was 1974 while the same CNN page and another site [7] indicates that Jones had encouraged his members to move to Jonestown in 1977. --Andylkl 19:08, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

All the building work was done between 1974-1977 without Jones presence, who went to live there only in 1977 after most of it was ready so Jones did not establish Jonestown but some of the members of the peoples temple. Andries

Added mention about it already. Dispute over this point settled. --Andylkl 20:00, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

CIA involvement

The article as well as the discussion page does not throw much light on the allegation of CIA involment in the Jonetown tragedy. I remember reading a book titled Jonestown Carnage: A CIA Crime published by one of the official publication groups in the erstwhile Soviet Union. It was published in the eighties. The book details the moral support Jonestown received from USSR and has photographs of Jim Jones with certain USSR officials. The conculsion of the book is that the Jonestown was an egalitarian set up on the lines of communist ideology and the residents were massacred by the CIA for their association with USSR.

The copy of the book is not immediately available with me as I stay in one part of India leaving the book away at home in another part of my country.

Can somebody provide some information on this book?

MANOJTV 11:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do not know about the book. Its conclusion is rejected by historians, who generally assert that the mass suicide was due to Jones, his paranoia, and the internal failings of the group. Peoples temple started as a church denomination but became an almost socialist group. Jones claimed to be the reincarnation of Lenin and request support from the Soviets. Andries 15:01, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Are the information availble with the US government still classified documents? If they are, why? Somehow I find it difficult to completely reject the possibility of a CIA involvement in the whole affairs. Because CIA is such a terrorist organization that you can not thoroughly rule out such a possibility. MANOJTV 08:44, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Jonestwon Carnage: A CIA Crime

File:Jones carnage.jpeg

Cover page of the book Jonestwon Carnage: A CIA Crime

Today I got hold of the book I wrote about in my earlier communications. I uploaded the image for the benefit of he wikipedia users. The information given in the book seems to be reliable though it is entirely possible that the book also was part of USSR propaganda. I am now re-reading the book in the context of the on going discussion in wikipedia pages. If any of the users are interested I would be willing to give some information on the contents of the book. In any case, if there is anything in the book I find very relevant, I will be adding them to the wikipedia page on Jonestown. MANOJTV 07:33, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I remember buying a few "Progress Publishers" books in the 1980s for amusement. Yep, pure propaganda. What makes you think that any information in there is reliable? -Willmcw 07:55, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• What makes me think the information in the book is reliable? The history of CIA itself as a terrorist outfit. As well as the McCarthy era in USA.

Anyway, I am reading again the book which I read almost two decades back. I will add something from that book in the pages of wikipedia, atleast as a different reading of Jonestown carnage/suicide. MANOJTV 02:39, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's fine, just please be careful to identify the source. Good luck, those Progress Publishers books used to put me to sleep faster than anything. Cheers, -Willmcw 04:07, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the search for survivors

The article says:

Hours after news of the mass suicide got out, local authorities found 913 of the 1,110 inhabitants dead, including 276 children...

I am old enough to remember this tragedy. It took a considerable time for a team to arrive. Initial observation (by helicopter perhaps?) was only able to count about 500 bodies. And it was thought that hundreds of survivors -- or loyalists -- were hiding out in the bush. It was only after a body recovery team arrived that the mystery was solved. The reason that the count was short was that bodies were lying on top of other bodies.

Check this external link

The link http://www.geocities.com/oldsayville/jones.htm is currently in the external links section, with the text "Jim Jones inspiration for his ideology and cult control techniques". The page claims that Jones was personally acquainted and inspired by Father Divine of Sayville, New York. However, pages from the site http://www.geocities.com/oldsayville/ have been added to other articles and have proved to be very problematic; actual facts (Melissa Joan Hart grew up in Sayville and knows Sarah Michelle Gellar) blended with improbable speculation treated as factual (Joss Whedon called the town in the "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" series "Sunnydale" because it sounded like "Sayville" and because Gellar regarded Hart as the "Chosen One" who would fight back against the bullying in the Sayville public school system.) So if someone with access to research materials could check whether the alleged link between Jones and Father Divine is plausible, and deal with the link accordingly, it'd be good. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:39, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's more than likely untrue, or some sort of extrapolation of a minor coincidence. James Earl Jones played a character named 'Father Divine' in a 1980 TV movie about Jonestown, but I'm not sure if that's the same Father Divine or if there is any connection whatsoever. The site in question is run by someone who is clearly irrational, so take whatever you see from there with a grain of salt.--Tpanarese

Are you kidding? Anyone who knows even the most minor detail about JJ knows that he met with Father Devine, when to his "compound" several times, and after FD died, Jones attempted to take control of the group. IN the end, all Jones did was pull some of FD's flock into his own church.......check out one of the few books that isnt entirely GARBAGE (read:full of sensational crap and lies).....RAVEN.....look in the index in the back for all the FD references you need..... josefjoey

"Drinking the Kool Aid"

One of the more interesting elements of popular culture that arose from this horrible tragedy is the idiom "drinking the kool aid". This is quite well known in the US but I would ask other wikipedians if they have heard it before. The expression means to blindly or brazenly accept the claims or beliefs of an individual or organization. It's often used to describe a supsicously enthusiastic corporate culture: "I've got to stop drinking the kool-aid". Shouldn't this be referenced in this article?

Oh, and yes, I know it was Flavor-Aid but the expression is exclusively used with "Kool Aid". Robbyslaughter 18:40, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I've heard it before, and I'd say it's an idiom well-known enough to mention; it demonstrates that Jonestown wasn't just something that happened but something that left an impression. http://www.wordspy.com/words/drinktheKool-Aid.asp documents it as a phrase in use going back to 1987, so 18 years is not a bad longevity. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Didn't the expression come from the "Electric Kool Aid Acid test" by Tom Woolfe? Basically involving LSD spiked Kool aid (as was often done by the Yipees in the mid 60's acording to the book), and the saying "Drinkng the kool aid" meaning basically "Your tripping man!" (ie, your crazy!). -- |Duckmonster

Footage of the shooting

The article says the five minute shooting where the congressman and the reporters were killed was captured on camera, where is this footage?

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Jones had several children but only one with his wife Marceline. Andries 17:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Like most families..."

Jones and many other members of the Peoples Temple saw themselves as a family that had the right and the duty to stay together. Like most families they felt that they had the duty to defend themselves against people who tried to take away their members.

Whether the product of bad writing or "religious freedom advocate" apologism, this needs to go.

What about Deborah Layton?

I heard a German radio documentary on the Jonestown tragedy the other day and wanted to read up on Deborah Layton. Now I am thoroughly surprised to find out that the Wikipedia article on Mrs. Layton has been "redirected" to this site, but here I can find no information whatsoever concerning her or her book. I presume Mrs Layton may appear to some people a controversial figure - but a "conspiracy of silence" about her would seem to me rather ridiculous and quite below Wikipedia's standards.

Robert Schediwy (Vienna)

But why did they do it?

This article (and the People's Temple article) provide no rationale as to why Jones justified this suicie to his followers, or more generally, what the group's beliefs were. I'm very interested in what purpose the members believed that their death served; were they going to heaven? Was the world going to end? Etc.

My answer to above

I think it's simple really. When the outsiders/officials/family members entered the camp and took out a few people it was only a matter of time before everyone was set free. Then the People's Temple and Jones would have the worst reputation ever. Jones knew this and I feel was the mastermind behind the mass murder, the last act of a desperate man. Dead men don't talk is the phrase that comes to mind. The reasons for the mass suicide may be debatable for some, but for me logic is my source cited.

270 children died. This is just terrible and to think they had to work from 7am to 6pm 6 days a week in the burning sun while Jones ate meat!

Sources

This whole article is missing a slew of sources...including the most recent edits by Mtloweman. That edit needs a source as well as the second paragraph under "Mass murder suicide". In fact everything under that heading needs a damn source. This is one of the most horrific incidents in Guyanese and American history...for whichever path you choose to believe. Locate the documented sources. If you can't, then put it under a hypothesis or conspiracy heading. Or something else. I'm not touching this anymore but hopefully a more seasoned wiki-member will get some sense of npov out of this article.

Btl 03:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)