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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 19/Wikipedians by politics

< Wikipedia:Categories for deletion | Log | 2006 June 19
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by GTBacchus (talk | contribs) at 17:02, 21 June 2006 (→[[:Category:Wikipedians by politics]] and all subcategories: reply to Tal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Category:Wikipedians by politics and all subcategories

No encyclopedic value, possible votestacking use Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Note - when I get access to AWB, I will mark all of the categories individually.[reply]

Note: This category was kept twice as a result of two earlier Cfd debates. January 4 2006 and December 18 2005 --Facto 20:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support These contribute to factionalization, assuming bad faith (when seen by an oppponent) and vote-stacking. Any need for expertise on a partisan view can be better addressed by listing the request on the talk page of the relevant party, where it will be seen by those who care about the partisan view, regardless of whether they hold it. GRBerry 18:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - Shouldn't a deletion notice appear at top of page Category:Wikipedians by politics that reads "This category is being considered for deletion..." before this vote proceeds? JungleCat 19:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. All the subcategories should be tagged, too. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. Let the voting begin...... JungleCat 19:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Um.... voting → discussion -GTBacchus(talk) 19:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC) (knocking furiously on wood)[reply]
    Discussion? I can't wait to discuss the next Presidential Election. ;-) JungleCat 19:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    GTBacchus is pointing that here on wikipedia, decisisons are not taken because of majority (that is, by vote counting) but by weighing is arguments and building consensus (that is 100 "voters " with weak or no arguments in favor vs 1 sound argument against makes the outcome to be in favor of the 1 sound argument against). Remember Wikipedia is not a democracy -- Drini 21:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This had to happen eventually, and although I think this is premature, I'll go ahead and support it. User categories according to political beliefs are a bad way for Wikipedians to network, especially when there are so much better ways to do it. We all have watchlists, there are WikiProjects and Portals, all of which are set up to enable us to find each other and communicate according to our editing interests. Another layer of organization, totally detatched from the article space, according to beliefs that may or may not have anything to do with our Wikipedia editing, is a recipe for abuse, and suggests that Wikipedia is a place of partisan organization and partisan activity. Simply setting an example of not acting in a partisan manner is not sufficient when we cheerfully provide infrastructure for partisan organization. We should stop sending mixed signals, and focus on writing an encyclopedia. We can celebrate our diversity, network with ohther Wikipedians, and build a stronger community that is tightly bound to the project, by networking by means of articles, WikiProjects, and Portals. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per GRBerry and GTBacchus. Non-encyclopedic, promotes categorization irrelevant to editing, and potential vote-stacking/edit-warring tool. Fireplace 19:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Not really good for anything except vote-stacking, as far as I can see, with respect to building an encyclopedia. So, kill. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, categories should not be used to classify users, only articles. Rangeley 19:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest support possible categories should be used for articles mostly, and user categories should not pose such risk of compromise NPOV by being used as ways to coordinate block efforts (as it Conservative Wikipedians was in the past days (WP:AN/I). So yes, all political user categories shouldn't be welcomed at wikipedia. -- Drini 19:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --GTBacchus has a good point. JungleCat 19:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Divisive, inflammatory, unnecessary. --ajn (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; contributes nothing to Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. Let's spend less time categorising users and more time improving articles. Warrens 20:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I will probably end up voting support, however why do we stop at political affiliations, can't the same be said for religious classifications etc? --zero faults |sockpuppets| 20:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete UE, and only lead to further conflict. --Wisden17 20:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - If Category:Wikipedians by religion ever comes up for a vote, someone please notify me. While I think they can be used for good, I am afraid it will create bias. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 20:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Being that the userbox war appears to be settling down with a compromise I don't mind seeing this go. It was one thing when the politics were broad, general categories (or philosophies), but looking at the subs now things have gotten way to specific and factional. Sadly the only way to handle it is to drop the whole branch. The religion branch should probably go as well as religion and politics tend to go hand in hand. I do think this should have waited a few more weeks as the German compromise is still growing roots and adding more conflict isn't going to help bring the extremists on board. In the end, having Wikipedian by skill or interest is enough for what the community is here for. --StuffOfInterest 21:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    However this is only marginally related to userboxes, which aren't under discussion here. This is about the categories themselves (no matter if they are populated via userbox or not) -- Drini 22:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It is distinctly related in terms of people's ability and choices for identifying themselves. --StuffOfInterest 22:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change my vote view to Keep. On further reflection, and after reading many of the other comments, I'd rather have people's POV clearly visible. If categories are banned then users will find other ways outside of Wikipedia to coordinate activities. At least if it happens on Wikipedia we have a better chance of identifying and dealing with it. Once it moves off site it will become more difficult to monitor and control. --StuffOfInterest 20:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Just clarifying that this is not a vote so you cannot "change your vote". You can change your mind however, that's fine and write a new argument, which I see you did -- Drini 21:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    What if we just got better at communicating the idea that coordinating by POV is actually a bad way to write an encyclopedia, and there were significant peer pressure to not think that way? -GTBacchus(talk) 20:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Human nature is too strong. There will always be goups who choose to coordinate their POV. Having categories such as these at least act as a honeypot so we can keep track of those using the technique. If nothing else, the categories can have a warning stating exactly what the categories should not be used for. If someone still goes ahead and spams based on it then there is easy grounds to block on. Driving the communications off site will make it much harder to track and quantify which makes justifying the blocks that much more difficult. --StuffOfInterest 20:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, I have a lot of faith in the ability of subcultures (Wikipedians) to develop their own standards and enforce them, but it requires people getting on board and helping to build momentum. What I think would be ideal would be, not to drive communication offsite, but to draw it into a more intimate connection with article space. Why communicate via an external categorization like user categories, when you could join a relevant WikiProject instead? Then people can communicate and express themselves and network to their heart's content, and they'd be doing it in a way that is quite blatantly encyclopedic, because the networking would take place over the editing of articles. Once a bunch of people are acting that way, newcomers will see that it's the way things are done here, and human nature won't present nearly the problem you imagine. Humans will adapt to the structures that are provided to them - if we provide more encyclopedic ways to network, why not trust people to grow into that, and encourage them into those structures by beginning to remove some of these old, less encyclopedia-oriented structures. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Good in principal. Still, is this something which should be done with the "softly, softly" approach or with a big stick? I see the big stick as deleting an entire tree (or trees) of categories. Softly would be trying to educate people that there is a better way to organize and then as the categories depopulate to remove them. As it stands now mass action is more likely to create massive strife within the community. --StuffOfInterest 20:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    sigh... yeah. That's why I began my support for deletion above with "I think this is premature", but once they're nominated, I have to give my very best arguments, whether or not enough Wikipedians are ready for it to happen. This is also why I started a political-themed WikiProject last night, and if it seems to be working out well (which it does, so far), I'll probably help start more, and try to encourage networking that way. I'm an avowed opponent of the "big stick" approach, but I won't argue for keeping something that should go if there's a chance we can jettison it now. At some point, progress is progress. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- this doesn't do the project any good. I don't have any opposition to "Wikipedians interested in x" search systems, but this has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a use of Category space that does more harm than good. Jkelly 23:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom.-gadfium 23:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support: Its fair for all categories to go.Gsingh 00:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — however, the userboxes must be kept. Deleting userboxes without subst'ing is essentially vandalism. (If the userboxes weren't userified, it would be much easier to do, just by removing the category from the userbox.) I agree that the categories are of very little benefit. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
YES! This is not about the userboxes, the useroxes are fine, just a mean for people to state their beliefs. The categories however are an organizational tool and user categories by beliefs pose huge risks. For instance, today an user was spamming for support using some christianity user-category. -- Drini 23:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all Divisive. Chicheley 01:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is this vote still open? I don't know how CfD works. If it's open, I just want to say I strongly oppose this deletion, on the grounds that such categories are useful for community building and having fun, which are important in encouraging participation in the project. If we delete categories like this, we'd have to delete BJAODN too. Deco 02:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Um, that doesn't follow. We can delete these categories, and keep BJAODN. None of the arguments I see above, including the ones I made, apply to BJAODN. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    You're right, they don't - I just don't find them very compelling personally. I don't believe these cats elevate conflict in any manner. Deco 06:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel I've seen it happen, when they're used as mailing lists for XfD discussion spam. "Hi, I see you identify as a Big-endian Wikipedian, so I'm asking you to come to CFD and vote to save Category:Little-endian baby-eaters. Kthx!" Does that seem to you like how the process is supposed to work? -GTBacchus(talk) 06:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose per Deco -- also, improperly formatted nomination, late tagging of subcategories, and apparent other process flaws including vote trolling --William Allen Simpson 02:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Vote trolling? Warrens 02:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Per GTBacchus and the timestamps above, the tagging was done within 25 minutes of the nomination. With over 100 sub-categories to tag (some have subcategories themselves), 25 minutes doesn't strike me as unreasonable. As to how I could respons so fast, I had tje June 19 page on watch due to prior participation in the nominations of two of the subcategories of this. I endorse the request for you to explain the vote trolling comment.GRBerry 03:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, I tagged the main category within 25 minutes, but the others only just now got done by AWB (thanks Hipocrite). -GTBacchus(talk) 06:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I believe these categories help Wikipedia by notifying Wikipedians of their peers' political views. That is beneficial because it tells us something about users' bias, and that's not to say it's divisive or a bad thing. I see liberal Wikipedians all the time (I'm more or less conservative) and I don't get offended; I'm sure it's likewise as well. Эйрон Кинни (t) 05:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. —Khoikhoi 06:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Potentially useful for WikiProjects, no evidence of "wrongdoing". Nor are they "divisive", any more than userboxes saying you eat at McDonald's or drink Pepsi-cola are divisive. Reflects user biases rather than "creates" them, and helps others to know where users are coming from. Sarge Baldy 06:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose per above. We've had this discussion before, and an overwhelming majority voted to KEEP them. Larix 09:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. I have to admit this CFD has a seductive charm to it. We just get rid of the categories and by doing so help put an end to political bickering. But there are so many reasons why I oppose this:
    1. Where do you draw the line? Which other categories of users might have an agenda and could use their category to disrupt Wikipedia? Well obviously Category:Wikipedians by philosophy would have to go, because the communists would find refuge in Category:Marxist Wikipedians, and the Republicans would all reorganize in Category:Capitalist Wikipedians. Next we'd have to remove Category:Wikipedians by sexuality, because the Category:LGBT Wikipedians could use the category to push the "gay agenda". Who knows what those Category:Kurdish Wikipedians might decide to do, so lets get rid of Category:Wikipedians by ethnicity, and while we are at it, we wouldn't want any nationalist associations hijacking the articles like Iraq, or Israel so let's delete all of Category:Wikipedians by location. Likewise, we'd have to get rid of Category:Wikipedians by religion and Category:Wikipedians by organization, because these could be pushing their religious beliefs or organizational objectives. The Category:Unitarian Universalist Wikipedians may be just a front for the liberals, and the conservatives, may all decide to create Category:Baptist Wikipedians and use it to front their agenda. Eventually, we'll just be left with Category:Wikipedians who can solve a Rubik's Cube, and decide that it isn't nice to brag and delete them too. Seriously, I don't think that it is possible to draw a line and say these user categories can be used for POV pushing and others cannot.
    2. Removing these categories makes Wikipedia less interesting. There is a social value to having Wikipedia user categories. People use Wikipedia as a social outlet. Associating with editors of similar beliefs makes people feel like they belong here.
    3. These categories demonstrate that Wikipedia is a big tent. I often here people rant something like "Wikipedia is run by a group of homosexual marxists..." or some other collection of ideologies. Having these categories lets newbies know that they are welcomed no matter what their beliefs are. They will see that there are others like them here already.
    4. Removing these categories will not solve the problem. If people want to organize to disrupt a discussion they will find some other means to do it. They will create noticeboards to create a list of likeminded people. If the noticeboards are banned, they will create a list of users on their own talk pages. If these lists are removed, they will keep an e-mail list in their e-mail program. Having this in the open where it can be watched is better than having it hidden.
    5. Freedom of association is a good thing. Nobody likes being told who they can communicate with and associate with. This is a basic democratic value. Freedom of association is not the same as freedom to conspire to disrupt. Yes, Wikipedia is not a democracy. But does that mean we want to turn it into a totalitarian state?
    6. People have a need to express themselves. We give people userpages for this reason. It is hard to maintain a constant NPOV outlook on the world. We say that user pages are the place where people can express themselves and the categorization of Wikipedians is an extension of this. If we tell people not to categorize themselves by their beliefs, next thing we will do is tell them not to express their beliefs anywhere in Wikipedia. After all, if you say that you are a Democrat or Republican on your user page, someone can take note of it and contact you when a controversy comes up.
    7. These categories are useful. A liberal editor might want a conservative editor to take a look at something for a POV check. I listed myself as an LGBT Wikipedian because I wanted others to know that I may have a bias, and expect to be called on it. I felt that listing myself that way was in a sense a pledge to try and edit in NPOV way, in large part because I was not trying to hide who I was and what my bias may be. When I see people editing a controversial article in an NPOV way and they have stated their personal opinions very clearly on their user pages it adds to my respect and appreciation for them.
    8. Deleting these categories does not assume good faith. There are hundreds and hundreds of people who have categorized themselves in these categories. Many may have done so with only the most noble intentions.
    9. Draconian measures like this are more disruptive than the problems they are trying to solve. I could have spent the time spent here writing articles about bridges. Deleting these categories is likely to be seen as an over-reaction to a problem which may lead to dissent and disillusionment. Here's an example of how "vote-stacking" can be handled in a much nicer and calmer way. Problems need to be solved with discussion and creative solutions. Draconian measures alienate others, scare off newbies, and escalate confrontation.
    10. We should regulate behavior, not speech and association. Let us be clear about how consensus works, it works by building consensus through dialogue. By responding to offenses of "vote-stacking", by removing categories, we tacitly give our approval to the idea of making decisions by voting and encourage people to think that it is reasonable to vote on issues of fact. We shouldn't give the appearance that we are protecting the sanctity of the voting process. There is no vote-stacking because there is NO VOTE, there is just discussion. We should be encouraging admins to make decisions that are only swayed by arguments and not numbers. We should work on coming up with creative solutions to our current scaling problems. There are serious problems to be dealt with. But this CFD is not the solution and may be very harmful to Wikipedia. -- Samuel Wantman 09:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    1. noone has said other categories can' be used for POV pushing. The point is that this ones ARE BEING USED to compromise NPOV in several ways, and so this is ABOUT POLITICAL CATEGORIES other kind of categories may be deal with later. -- Drini 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    2. Except that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia If you want a social networking site, go MySpace. The fact that people use wikipedia as a social outlet doens't mean it's a make-friends-site. Priorities first. -- Drini 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      In support of Drini's point here, please see meatball:DefendAgainstPassion. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    3. Users can just write so about on their pages and you can point to them. This point is moot since people will rant anyway for any reason. We don not need to disprove what is not true. -- Drini 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    4. Be it so. Let's not facilitate the wrong behaviour by rationalizing it's inevitable -- Drini 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    5. Wikipedia is not a state so it cannot become a totalitarian state. Use better arguments, you can communicate with other peopl, noone is forbidding so, this is just about categorizing people, not forbidding communication -- Drini 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    6. There are plenty of expressing outlets there. We didn't give userpages for that reason. We gave userpages so people could coordinate their wikiwork not for socializing or expressing themselves. People doing that doesn't change the fact it's a misuse. -- Drini 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC) [reply]
    7. And These categories are hurtful as welll And the FACT is that they're not being the way you propose but the other ways, with liberal/conservatives/whatever contacting only their political friends in order to support their views and shut off the others. -- Drini 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    8. It does after examples of misuses. People may have categorized with good intentions, uncategorization isn't going to hurt them. This is just a point to divert the attention on what is on focus. There's nothing about good faith being dealt here. (In fact you're assuming bad faith by assuming this was done for some censorship prupose instead of helping the encyclopedia) -- Drini 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    9. A draconian measure is not the same as a non trivial measure. There is no confrontation, you're the only one making it look that way this was a proposal, and people are giving their comments. -- Drini 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    10. We are not regulating speech, noone is forbidding you to write you're a conservative on your page Yyou are being misleading. There's no issue abotu speech. This is just about disbanding categories with a high potential of rish that have in fact being already used in ways they shouldn't be. People can express themselves, noone is forbidding speech. And as you rightfully point consensus doesn't mean majority since these are votes. So I HOPE the admin closing this CFD wil l consider the ARGUMENTS instead just votecounting. Here we agree. -- Drini 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    SamuelWantman, that was a very thorough explanation. Point by point, now:
    1. Where will it end - you suggest that we may end up losing almost all non-encylcopedic user categories. I think that would be a good thing. Wouldn't it be great if Wikipedians were to network according to their encyclopedic activities, rather than according to something independent of the encyclopedia? (Intratextual comment: That would be "great" if the encyclopedia weren't about the outside (nonWikipedia) world. These user categories are one of many ways by which editors acting in good faith may contact other editors who have voiced interest in the topic. While bad faith uses are possible (and have occurred), I don't see how the project benefits by moving the scheming/votestacking off-site to a stealthier location. Isn't it good for the project to be able to see when folks are gaming the system, etc.? Dick Clark 21:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC))[reply]
    2. This argument seems to be based on the misconception that Wikipedians can't associate with like-minded Wikipedians without user categories. You have not addressed that ample other, better means available for association, which are not opposed, but encouraged. Clearly this is not about "freedom of association".
    3. This argument is reasonable, but the fact that Wikipedia is built by all kinds should be apparent from working on articles.
    4. This is based on a misundersanding of what "the problem" is. This is about a deeper cultural issue than "vote-stacking".
    5. Nobody is suggesting limits on who people can communicate with. You have not addressed the ample, better means available for association, which are not opposed, but encouraged.
    6. This arguemnt suggests that unencyclopedic user categories are necessary for self-expression, and ignores the ample, and better means for self-expression available here.
    7. A better way to find an editor knowledgable about a certain topic is via articles, projects and portals. You have not addressed this clearly encyclopedic means of networking; in fact some of your arguments rely for their strength on the assumption that encyclopedic means of networking don't exist.
    8. This deletion proposal has nothing to do with anyone's good faith. If the categories are a bad idea, people could have joined them for the best of reasons, and they still have to go.
    9. This arguments seems to assume that "vote-stacking" is the problem this deletion is trying to solve. It isn't; it's one small facet of the problem.
    10. Again, this is not about vote-stacking, and you seem to be ignoring the arguments that have been presented (not in this thread yet) about how so-called "vote-stacking" is actually discussion disruption, and is disruptive regardless of the fact that we don't do votes.
    In summary, I'm not buying it. I suspect your intentions are as good as can be, but you seem to be largely misunderstanding the arguments for deletion, as you're responding to what I consider to be straw-men. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep, per SamuelWantman's points (except 10, the implications of such a change in policy would be tremendous, raise it up on the Village Pump or soemthing, not at CfD.). +Hexagon1 (t)     12:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all It is not true that there is no voting, that is merely idealistic rhetoric. Numbers are inevitably a crucial part of the discussion process. Making a blanket assumption of good faith in in the face of such widespread temptation to act in bad faith is also unrealistic: such a policy is only viable if reasonable steps are taken to control abuse. Osomec 13:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- per GTBacchus - TexasAndroid 14:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per GRBerry and GTBacchus. CovenantD 14:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep as per Samuel Wantman - couldn't have put it better myself. --gbambino 14:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep these categories like all other categories of Wikipedian's are helpful to the community, they emphesize Wikipedia's deiversity and pluralism and thus help everyone find his/her own place. In addition, as commented above it can allow to help make the articles NPOV by making people aware of each others biases instead of bluntly ignoring their existance. In other words these categories help this community deal with its diversity intead of trying to eliminate it, which is both impossible, since people naturaly have a POV and are not machines, and unworthy since diversity can be helpful. Also, I think categories make Wikipedia more fun and help attract new members who contribute a lot and thus have also an indirect positive influence. If there is a SPECIFIC category used for vandelism or for imposing a certain POV then maybe such a specific category should be deleted instead of just deleting all of these categories altogether, although most of them are harmless. Such a draconian measure may also make many members who worked on these lists or joined them feel unwelcome and such a measure will seem more like an aggresive compulsion rather than a cosensus based decision.
    I also strongly advise to read Samuel Wantman's 10 points listed above which better explain why deleting these categories is outrageous. In addition I have a question for those people thinking that categories "devide" the community and show members' POV and should therefore be deleted, doesn't this very voting/discussion "devide" the community in the exact same way that categories do? Should it then also be deleted?Tal :) 16:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    User has advocated spamming user-talk pages to garner outside support for his position, in addition to posting a not-neutral notice to a wikiproject (a wikiproject I founded, none the less.) Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Firstly I did not "spam" any user talk page but my own. Secondly there is nothing wrong with discussing stuff with other people (isn't that what talk pages are for?) and trying to "garner" "outside support" as I see it is trying to tell other people of what's going on so this voting will reflect Wikipedia's community's opinion and won't consist only of people who happened to notice it on the log... Thirdly, I did leave a message on the Wikiproject wikipedians against censorship, according to the project's own policy: "This notice board is intended to inform project members of current Wikipedia events related to censorship. Please list articles in need of attention...votes for deletion..." and I did add my own POV arguments so people will understand what I'm talking about and why I think it is important and worth mentioning on the noticeboard (specifically created, if i'm not mistaken, for these kinds of messages), BUT I also encouraged them to read this discussion and form their OWN opinion. Lastly, I believe that by your comment, intended to delegitimise my opinion, you have answerd my above question... Tal :) 16:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Tal, regarding your "I see it is trying to tell other people of what's going on so this voting will reflect Wikipedia's community's opinion", I have a reply. Since these discussions aren't votes, but they look like votes, it's actually damaging to act as if they are, and act as if trying to get a "representative sample" is a good idea. In a vote, that would make sense, and if Wikipedia were a democracy, we might have mechanisms in place to try to guarantee representative samples. Since it isn't, we don't pretend that rallying up a larger sample would necessarily have a positive effect on a discussion. To an extent, bringing in more opinions helps, but once the major opinions are represented, it's down to the arguments, not the numbers. It's a fact that discussions scale poorly (the density of one-to-one interactions goes down as the square of the group size), and at some point, more cooks really do ruin the cake. Worst of all, running around doing things to ensure that the "vote" is fair strongly reinforces the idea that decisions are made by votes here, and that's a destructive idea. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Wantman. BoojiBoy 15:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since this is not a vote, I invite you to elaborate further, maybe on the counterpoints raised to waltman's ones? -- Drini 23:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, I never even hinted at a userbox or any combination of userboxen being sufficient evidence for such a belief. In fact, I specifically made the point that not all "difficult contributors" are acting in badfaith. That was indeed crucial to my assertion. Also, your assertion that this category deletion and bias disclosure are complimentary is what I am disputing. I know that you claim that to be so—that's why I'm saying that you are wrong. Let me get this straight: You claim that 1)GTBacchus thinks that bias disclosure is a "good thing"; 2) GTBacchus thinks that the categories should be deleted; 3)Therefore, bias disclosure and this cat deletion are compatible. I'm sorry, but that argument form seems pretty specious to me. Dick Clark 16:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. When you said "Openness about your POV (in user space)... can often help editors understand whether a difficult contributor is acting in bad faith or is just being unintentionally obtuse." So, it sounds like you're saying that there's something someone can say in their userspace that would enable us to conclude that they're a bad-faith editor. I see nothing to be gained from thinking that way, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. If so, I'm sorry about that; it wasn't intentional.
As for the disclosure of bias and category deletion being compatible or not, I guess they wouldn't be if user categories were the only way, or even the best way, to disclose bias, but they're not. I'm strongly in favor of disclosure of bias in appropriate ways, and strongly opposed to doing it in inappropriate ways. I hope that clarifies my point; I apologize for any confusion. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest possible delete, kill, destroy all these categories which are bound to encourage POV massing and organised campaigns. David | Talk 21:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No use for them, other than being divisive. Also could very easily be used as a vote stacking tool. Garion96 (talk) 22:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep No harm in finding out who has the same political ideaology as you.--GorillazFan Adam 22:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Nobody has addressed my first point. Where do we draw the line? If these categories are removed, we in all fairness must remove categories of Wikipedians related to location and religion, because those have also been used for "vote-stacking", and with the abolution of these categories likely to be used even more. I find this to be a proposal without a workable future. -- Samuel Wantman 22:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Textbook Questionable cause fallacy Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe the religions ones should also go away, but instead of wondering what about the others I believe the practical approach is better. Deal first with this kind. Then deal with the other and so on, given that trying to delete both kind of categories is a change so large that would make the decission taking much more complicated than handling them separatedly. -- Drini 23:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment -- I will give the answer Samuel Wantman was asking here: You will not draw the line until every category that alienates an opinion is eliminated. That’s it. Userboxes are targets here too, and I’ll tell you why. You see, Samuel Wantman was right when he pointed out that there will be other ways to form alliances, identify who does what, etc. For example, I could create a cute little userbox (let’s call it “Tacobell eaters who are conservative”) and I share it with my good WIKI friends who put it on their userpage. That userbox will have a link to a sub-page under my user page. All I have to do is go to that sub-page and hit What links here?. And – Whala! I have a my own user "category". There is more than one way to “skin a cat” (no pun intended).Samuel Wantman has some other good points, one of which was how to handle “vote stacking” in a friendly way: An example. One more point: ‘’Wikipedia is not a democracy’’ - OK, then some of you might want to look at your userpage. Does it conform to Wiki standards? Do you put things not related to work that you are doing on the articles in Wikipedia? Do you have a bias spelled out of who you are? Remember, this is not a democracy. POV’s are not allowed. GTBacchus has good points. That is why initialy supported this idea. Now, after thinking about the future effect this will have, I am now pulling a John Kerry and opposing this. JungleCat 13:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand this part: "Remember, this is not a democracy. POV’s are not allowed." Who's saying that POVs are not allowed? Do you realize that POV stands for "point of view", and that everybody's got one? How could they not be allowed? Do you really think that's the argument at stake here? -GTBacchus(talk) 15:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP - If used properly, they do no harm. Why punish everyone for the mistakes of a few? - pm_shef 23:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Because they're being improperly used. But the main point is that nobody is being punished, nro censored, etc. You can write about your POVs on your page if you feel the need. Having a techcnical tool to facilitat networking with high risk for abuse (which has been done in the past) is not good. But this is not punishment to nay user. Please, keep the facts straight. -- Drini 23:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Inappropriately used by who? I can't recall every having got a message saying "help me stack the vote going on over here". Honestly I can't see that happens much at all. If it does, the 2 users doing it should be implored to stop, or otherwise made to stop. Sarge Baldy 00:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If I'm not mistaken, it's happened three times in the last week, twice with Category:Conservative Wikipedians, and according to Drini, once with some Christian category. I've seen way too many messages that say things like "Hi, I see you identify yourself as a Big-endian Wikipedian; please come to CfD and vote to save Category:Little-endian baby-eaters. Kthkx!" You only have to see that a few times before becoming convinced it's a problem. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    A suggestion- correct me if I'm mistaken, but I get the feeling from reading the arguments for deletion that the main issue here is vote stacking (essentialy internal spamming). Unlike what people argued above, I believe that most vote stacking comes not from outright meaness and a conscious violation of Wikipedia's policies but rather out of ignorance of policies and of the concept of internal spamming, and confusion about the correct use of political categories, resulting from lack of clear guidelines. Thus, I suggest the following motion, which I believe will adress the problem of dealing with vote stacking in a much more effective and less offensive way:
  1. Firstly, a warning will be posted on all user categories and subcategories (not only political ones) explaining briefly what internal spamming is, that it violets WP:SPAM and that it is a blockable offence. I believe this will significantly reduce the ignorance-based vote stacking and will make vote stacking much rarer.
  2. Secondly, an on going discussion should start to create clear guidelines and objectives of user categories defining what's right and what's wrong.
  3. Violators of such guidelines, or of existing Wikipedia policy, especially vote stackers, will be blocked.
  4. A few months after this motion is put into pracitce its results will be assesed and IF it turns out vote stacking was not reduced significantly then a new proposal for deletion will take place. Only this time it will be different from now since members (like me) might get the feeling that there is indeed no other "softer" solution possible and that this proposal really deals with a serious problem and is not just a way to try and do away with individuality and pluralism on Wikipeida.
The benefits of this solution are:
  1. It will make the objective of deletion (if it will be decided to repropose it in a few months) much clearer and thus the deletion,if put in practice, will be better accepted and people will not be encouraged to form outside potential vote stacking places, a problem mentioned by many people here, which will make vote stacking harder to track and monitor and may evetually increase the problem instead of reducing it.
  2. It may allow the benefits of user categories, mentioned by many users int this dicussion, and reduce their disadvatages.
  3. Members "voting" against deletion (like me) may change their view after the results of this solution be assesd, or if my solution will be succesful in reducing vote stacking significantly, members currently spporting the deletion may change their views. Thus this motion will help achieve consensus and make this issue less devisive.
  4. The current proposal, without the neccessary assesment suggested, will be considered by many as a collective punishment and an unneccessary draconian measure, and it will ultimately create bad faith between members in the community, many of whom worked hard on making these lists without intending harm, and will probably feel oppressed by their outright and aggresive deletion.
So, this is my proposal, and I suggest that it will be put in practice and that in the meantime we keep all user categories, block all spammers according to Wikipeida's policies and reasses the situation in a few months, after analyzing this solution's outcomes Tal :) 07:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tal, I would dispute your starting assumption, that the main problem is vote-stacking. It isn't. The main problem is the Wikipedia has gotten into the habit of categorizing ourseves in a way that's separate from the articles we work on. That's a bad habit and we're trying to break it. The solution is for people to network via articles, projects, and portals, which will allow for just as much community as user categories, and in a way that is fundamenatally related and not at odds with our basic goal of writing an encyclopedia. Your proposal seems to be based on the idea that user categorization by belief is basically an ok thing, with only the problem of vote-stacking. The problem is the user categorization by belief is basically misguided. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete category and all its subcats. I don't think it's inherently a bad thing (and it may even be helpful) to disclose one's own beliefs and/or biases on a user page, but this doesn't require the use of categories. The existence of a single, centralized categorization system of users based on these beliefs does facilitate harmful vote-stacking and factionalization. We ought to err on the side of preventing harm by ridding the project of these centralized belief-based categories. — Jeff | (talk) | 00:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per GTBacchus. —Mira 03:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support...while I fully support the concept of using a limited number of categories to help wikipedians link with each other to grow articles based on common interest, the political ideology/identification categories, have, at least as far as I've observed, served no purpose other than to provide ripe recruiting grounds for people with similar ideologies on XfD's. This is not "community building", it's nothing more than an inline tool for politicized bludgeoneering of serious discussion. I have no problem seeking comment from people who have demonstrated interest in a subject, don't get me wrong...even "spamming" 50 talk pages of people who have edited articles related to whatever particular subject (as long as you don't pick and choose too excessively whom to "spam" based on your preferred outcome), but a category such as this allows for identification of probsible like-minded souls who have never contributed to XYZ coming in out of the blue w/ no real interest other than a shared political identity, and voting whatever way their recruiter does. I don't want to sound like I'm making an assumption of bad faith wrt people who have never contributed to X on an XfD, but when their input is solicited based on something as flimsy as shared political philosophy, red flags start going up for me all over the place. Category:Jewish Wikipedians, Category:Buddhist Wikipedians, fine. (Incidentally, I fully believe that Category:Heterosexual Wikipedians and Category:Gay Wikipedians really need to go away as well... not only do these categories fall under the rubric of this discussion, but they also fall under the rubric of Wikipedia is not a dating service and point up a very clear WP:NPOV problem, as they should either be Straight|Gay (respectively) or Heterosexual|Homosexual (respectively)...) Tomertalk 05:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose as per Wantman. Also, the 'all subcategories' clause is far too broad. This category overlaps with many others, and deleting all its subcategories would get rid of many categories that have more than just a political meaning. Zorblek (talk) 09:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or transform into categories demonstrating interest in a particular field of politics, rather than agreement.--Eloquence* 09:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The ideal that Wikipedians should only act based on their desire to write an encyclopedia, and not on their outside beliefs, is utopian and fundamentally impossible. It sounds good, but people can't check their biases at the door no matter how much people claim they can and should. It's better to get their biases out on the table. The anti-votestacking argument is, fundamentally, an argument that only those who follow *fD closely should participate in those discussions, and is thus inherently itself elitist and divisive. Jay Maynard 11:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - Anything that isn't "fundamentally impossible" is utterly worthless, as an ideal. It is only in striving for the impossible that greatness happens. We should strive for NPOV on an individual level while editing here; the degree to which we achieve it at an individial level is not as important as the act of striving.
    Furthermore, many of us suggesting these categories be deleted support putting biases on the table, too, so that's a red herring. Vote-stacking is also a minor point at most, which you've managed to mischaracterize as a rather bad straw-man. The main point is that we're networking by to non-encyclopedic means rather than networking by encyclopedic means. If people network the way that's being suggested, they won't be homogenous or lonely, they won't be in denial, and they won't miss out on XfDs. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please move all these user-related categories to a separate wiki and redirect the time and effort spent on them (evidenced above) to the encyclopedia's content. David Kernow 13:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but that is more because I think the whole thing needs sorting out properly and deleting a category is not going to sort it all out. This is the same sort of discussion as occurs endlessly on POV userboxes and anything that stems from individuals showing their own POV. It would be better to draw-up and agree a policy to cover all this and work from that. Without a consensus on a policy deleting this category will just produce something similar elsewhere. --MarkS (talk) 14:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I wanted to offer an insightful and witty observation, but GTBacchus and Drini have selfishly used up all the good material. All I can do is agree with them. Doc Tropics 15:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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