Itsmejudith

Lucca

Hi! I gave a glance to the Lucca article and everything seems ok. The image are properly sets on alternating sides to avoid overlapping with the infobox, for what I can see. Let me know. user:Attilios

Thanks, but in my browser the contents and infobox still overlap. I'll try in another browser tomorrow.Itsmejudith 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Post-fordism

Just wanted to say thanks for helping this article along. -Halidecyphon 22:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Itsmejudith,

Can we please discuss the Bat Ye'or case together and then after we have organized our arguments, present them to Pecher and Merzbow.

Pecher's arguments can be summerized to the followings:

• "Lewis does not need to approve of her, but he ackonowledges her significance."
• Here are some collections of reviews of her works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pecher/The_Dhimmi and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pecher/The_Decline

My arguments:

• Bernard Lewis doesn't quote her.
• Lewis in his book Jews of Islam under the footnote for the sentence:"Two stereotypes dominate most of what has been written on tolerance and intolerance in the Islamic world", after mentioning some works by scholars such as Tritton, Goitein, Fattal, Stillman, Cohen; in the last two sentences, He puts her along with Karl Binswanger who is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists! Here is the exact quote:

" Two other works, which emphasize the negative aspects of the Muslim record, are Bat Ye'or, "name of a book", and Karl Binswanger, "name of a book". The latter is very critical of what he calls the "dogmatic Islamophilia" of many orientalists. "

• Sidney H. Griffith stated that there is an unfortunate polemical tone in her work. (See Bat Ye'or section: controversary

• These are some websites that I am not sure whether are reliable enough or not:

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/295 says:

But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out. Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote. ...Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas."The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis." Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated. Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude."

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005178.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2006/01/009895print.html

This one says:

"Lewis has never yet acknowledged his behind-the-scenes belittling of Bat Ye'or and his own refusal to recognize that the history of dhimmitude -- a word he likes to mock as "dhimmi-tude," as if it is a preposterous, rather than useful, addition to the lexicon -- matters, is relevant, is center-stage. Instead we are supposed to believe the word itself is illegitimate. No one, apparently, can add to the wordhoard's store, even when the word turns out to be most apt and most useful. He has never engaged sympathetically with what is presented in The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam. He has never reviewed the book, never written about it. Instead he just goes around, ignoring or denigrating in various sly ways (that "dhimmi-tude") the work of Bat Ye'or."

And this one http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1197

says that: "Lewis has in the past been unwilling to endorse the scholarship of Bat Ye'or, describing it as "too polemical."

Best wishes, --Aminz 23:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, I was thinking of sending an email to Esposito or Lewis and asking their opinion about credibility of Bat Ye'or as an "academic reliable source". I can do it myself but was thinking maybe it would be better if you ask (since you have the same major as them and know them better than me). Esposito's email is [email protected]

Would you please let me know what you think? Thanks --Aminz 00:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Bat Ye'or

In "State of 'dhimmitude' seen as threat to Christians, Jews" by Jula Duin ("Washington Times," October 30, 2002) { The archive is no longer available at the washington times website (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021030-10490720.htm) but,

A copy of that could be found elsewhere and here for example: http://hss.fullerton.edu/comparative/islam.htm (The link belongs to the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at CSUF)

Here is the article. It contains criticisms of Bat Ye'or from several people and notably by John Esposito:

Egyptian-born historian Bat Ye'or and her husband, David Littman, have been making the rounds of several campuses this month to lecture on "dhimmitude," a word she coined to describe the status of Christians and Jews under Islamic governments.

Muslims have visited exile, persecution, deportations, massacres and other humiliations on non-Muslims for almost 1,400 years, she has told students at Georgetown, Brown, Yale and Brandeis universities.

Muslim armies steamrolled over North Africa, the Middle East and Spain for five centuries after the death of Muhammad in 632, says Bat Ye'or, a pen name meaning "daughter of the Nile." In her two most recent books, "Islam and Dhimmitude" and "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," she describes how magnificent basilicas and monasteries of Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia were left in smoking ruins by Muslims from the eighth to 10th centuries.

Spain, she says, was pillaged and devastated many times: Zamora in 981, Barcelona in 987, Santiago de Compostela in 997. In 1000, Castile was ravaged, its Christian population either killed or enslaved and deported. In 1096, Pope Urban II set the Crusades in motion by calling on Christians to take back the conquered lands.

The golden age of Muslim rule in Spain from the eighth to the 15th century was largely myth, Bat Ye'or says, and dhimmitude is in effect today in Islamic-ruled Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, parts of Indonesia and northern Nigeria.

Bat Ye'or has had hearings in some quarters, including her 1997 and 2001 appearances before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Congressional Human Rights Caucus. But many of the 70 students attending her Oct. 15 lecture at Georgetown University on "The Ideology of Jihad, Dhimmitude and Human Rights" walked out.

Julia Segall, president of the Georgetown Israel Alliance, and Daniel Spector, president of the Jewish Student Alliance, called the lecture a "disaster" in Friday's edition of Hoya, a student newspaper.

Bat Ye'or and Mr. Littman "made no effort to make a clear distinction between pure, harmonious Islam and the acts of a few who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam," they wrote.

In the same issue, dissenting student Scott Borer-Miller criticized the university for its treatment of Bat Ye'or and its "anti-Zionist environment where supporting Israel is uncool."

Mr. Littman shrugged off the fracas.

"The Muslim students who were attending were unhappy with what we were saying and so they pressured the Jews," he said. "And the Jews collapsed. They've become dhimmis."

Bat Ye'or also was criticized by John Esposito, director of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, for lacking academic credentials. She studied at the University of London's School of Archaeology and at the University of Geneva, but never graduated.

Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at the Center for Religious Freedom, said Bat Ye'or's research into Turkish, Persian and Arabic documents dating back to the eighth century has not been contested.

"What's notable is [various academics] don't attempt to refute her work, which is scholarly and documented," he said. "Those who oppose it owe it to her to engage her work at the scholarly level, which it deserves."

Imam Rashied Omar, a Capetown (South Africa) University academic pursuing his doctorate in religion and violence at the University of Notre Dame, said that Bat Ye'or's findings are a minority view that contrasts with a large portion of extant literature on medieval Jewish-Muslim-Christian relations.

"That's not to say there was no oppression," he said, "but it's well-known that Jews sought refuge under Muslim empires. Jews and Christians obtained greater freedom and abilities to express their religious identities under Muslim rule than was the case under Christian rule."

Abdelaziz Sachedina, a religious studies professor at the University of Virginia, points out that Bat Ye'or used highly polemic sources written by the victims of dhimmitude.

"Monotheistic religions are always exclusivist," he said, "so how are they going to deal with other monotheistic peoples? Muslims have showed their civilization has a better mechanism in which to do so because they give sanctity to other monotheists. It was a just system that took the dignity of all human beings into consideration. Muslims are not saying we treated them well or that it was an ideal situation."

You can find this in many other websites as well. --Aminz 07:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Itsmejudith, good work on the Dhimmi article. His Excellency... 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Is Wheatcroft's and Albert Hourani's book on Dhimmi? If yes, that would be great! BTW, I think we have established that Esposito has criticized Bat Ye'or, no further emailing is needed but thanks anyway. Regards, --Aminz 07:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much Itsmejudith for the sources. It is great. If those books are available at Amazon, one can have access to all of it online (which is great!). I'll work on the article slowly. If, during your research, you found an interesting quote, it would be great if you could add it to the article. Thanks a lot again. --Aminz 23:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that Amazon has added the "Amazon Online Reader" feature for many books. I don't have to buy the books. I can simply read them without buying them. That's great! I also do have access to the UC Berkeley Libarary. I am currently reading Lewis's work which is written nicely whenever I am free. After that, I will pick another book. And yes, thanks to Merzbow! He is a good editor. --Aminz 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Itsyoujudith, just wanted to drop you a note and say how refreshing it is to see some academic infusion into articles like Dhimmi. I've followed a bit what you've had to say and it's encouraging in terms of getting Dhimmi well into NPOV-land. I look forward to seeing your further contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks. Netscott 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well a lack of response isn't the most encouraging sign... but I suppose you're busy. :-) Netscott 23:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Aminz 08:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your edits to the article. --Aminz 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Community is now the Core Topics COTF

You showed support for Amazon rainforest at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Core topics/Core topics COTF. This article was selected as our collaboration. Hope you can help.

Maurreen 08:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

ANI entry

Hi there. This has alot to do with the "Criticism of Islam" page. It's clear to me that Merzbow is trying to silence my participation in articles using these underhanded tactics. If you have any input, please do participate: WP:ANI#Abuse_of_Warning_Templates_By_Merzbow His Excellency... 04:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Help

Thanks for going to Persecution of Pagans and making it better.Hypnosadist 19:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Criticism of Islam

This is the Best/Worst idea ive heard for this page, if WE(the editors on the page) were to succeed then it could really help. BUT it is very likely to take a lot of energy and time with a lot of insulting going on. I've been around this block so i think one of the most important things is the academic bias at different times in the last hundred years. No-one is unbiased especially on this subject(Islam) and that a full on propaganda war is underway by BOTH/ALL sides in all media hence on the Net hence on wikipedia. The study of this 3rd wave (information) war is my speciality, with RE as my humanity (and long term intrest) in a science based education the "Electronic Intafada" and all its battlefields including the one we are on now!Hypnosadist 21:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Re varied interests

Hi Judith. I am not sure if that's true. However, i may agree about the quality of those interests. C'est un plaisir de vous connaître. Cheers -- Szvest 10:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

My Arbcomm case

Hey. Thanks for your comments on my arbcomm case. That's probably the first time anyone said anything nice about my contributions to an actual article. So much of their case is about how I say things, where so much of mine is about the effect all this has on the actual content. Where my actions make talk pages look bad (IMO I make them look more interesting, but what do I know?), theirs destroy articles and create the impression that Wikipedia endorses political motives (yes, political...I don't think any of this has an ounce to do with religion or history). Anyway I really appreciate your comments. :) His Excellency... 13:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't cite any actual evidence in the way of diffs or edits that H.E. has made, the arbcom will probably ignore what you said. Experience talking. --Woohookitty^(meow) 05:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep I understand you. It's not easy. But on the other hand, if you don't do that, your words will fall on deaf ears. If I can help at all, let me know. And btw, here are all of his H.E.'s edits under that name. Might help you a bit. --Woohookitty^(meow) 08:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Judith, I honestly don't think there's a need for you to put a tremendous research effort into this. Your comments are very telling as they are, but a few examples of good-faith edits by HE to Dhimmi that you think have been unfairly reverted would make a big difference. If I understand what's been happening at Dhimmi, you won't really need to rake over a lot of ancient history; dipping in for samples would do it. If you need help with stuff like navigating the histories and making diffs for your examples, please let me or Woohoo know the specifics. Btw, if you'd rather discuss such details of old quarrels less publicly, you might consider enabling your wiki e-mail and using that. (Click on the "my preferences" link top right and you'll see how to provide an e-mail address and tick the option to allow others to contact you.) Bishonen | talk 09:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC).

Re Dhimmi

Bonsoir Judith. Let me confess to you that i relatively stopped contributing or debating any religion-related article since a good time now. However this wouldn't stop me from congratulating you for the very good effort and courage to bring a different approach to editing those kind of articles. I also admire your good knowledge of academic research. I believe you do not have to change or tweek any of your manners in doing so. Cheers -- Szvest 18:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

Dhimmi

Hi Itsmejudith, How are you?

Itsmejudith, I can see lots of discussions on the talk page since last week. Would you please let me know the discussions in which sections of the discussion page is not settled down yet, so that I would be able to follow it. Thanks --Aminz 23:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks so much for your efforts to the Dhimmi article.

I think Hypnosadist‎ is online. I've asked him --Aminz 23:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Festa del Redentore

Nice work on Festa del Redentore, thanks! -Harmil 18:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

You presence is requested at the Arbitration Re: Removal of humus sapiens admin privilages due to administrative abuse. Please click Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration Israel Article

I know how to do diffs

I learned due to this process. Ok DIFFs are the page you look at through the history tab, they are the DIFFerence between two pages. If you go to the history page and select this edit and the previous edit and push the button marked compare selected versions what will happen is a new page will open, this is the diff. The URL in the address bar of your brouser is what you have to post in square brackets to present a diff as a link. Hope that helps, if not come to my talk page.Hypnosadist 22:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes i got those links thanks for the help i just have not got round to it. The adviserial nature on the arb case is something i really don't like, read the evidence talk page for more on that. Also the geek bias in this process favours those who know things like diffs. My belief in a fair trial meant i had to tell you dispite being on other sides (do you really think Kike, apostate and bigot are things we should call each other here?).Hypnosadist 22:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

Sorry about the delay... I saw you comment and then... kept on putting it off. I don't like the Islam articles these days. Too much fighting and not enough academia. Writers don't seem to know their limitations in some cases. In any case, I read your section "Peer-reviewed articles" and they seem like a good start. One problem is that this kind of discussion is typically tucked away in talk of Islamic society. Bat Ye'or wanted to bring it out so she wrote only about it. I think she loses a lot of societal context. But, I am not an expert on her work or on dhimma.

From your list I have access to:

• Al-Qattan, N., 1999, ‘Dhimmis in the Muslim court: Legal autonomy and religious discrimination’, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 31, No. 3. Aug., pp429-444. ISSN 00207438 ISSN 14716380
• Bosworth, C.E., 1972, ‘Christian and Jewish Religious Dignitaries in Mamluk Egypt and Syria - Qalaqshandis Information on their Hierarchy, Titulature, and Appointment (II) .3. Documents Given by Qalaqshandi on Appointment of Heads of Dhimmis’, International Journal of Middle East Studies. Vol. 3, No. 2, pp199-216.

Others:

• "Communal Strife in Late Mamlūk Jerusalem". Donald P. Little. Islamic Law and Society, Vol. 6, No. 1. (1999), pp. 69-96. — he expounds a little on dhimma at the beginning of what I read.

• "Political and Social Aspects of Islamic Religious Endowments ("awqāf"): Saladin in Cairo (1169-73) and Jerusalem (1187-93)". Yehoshuʿa Frenkel. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 62, No. 1. (1999), pp. 1-20. — This is a very messy but incredibly interesting piece, it seems. It shows Saladin's use of waqf to gain political power over the Muslim and Jews. It doesn't seem to address dhimma directly but it's all about it. The fifth page of the article starts talking about interaction with Latin Christians. Since it was the 3rd crusade it talks about confiscation of enemy assets under Hanafi law. Our present article tries to deal with it too holistically and doesn't address its power as a political tool in different circumstances.

We need to get some more SOAS stuff into the article and maybe some modern Muslim takes on it. I know there was an anthology with some G. R. Hawting stuff in it that had an article about dhimma.

In case you want to know about the Dhimmi article an my view of Wikipedia: here goes. Bat Ye'or wants to be critical. If you read her language it's incredibly judgmental. My reading about her tells me this: she has definitely done some good research but she needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Which, is something that doesn't work well on Wikipedia. Becuase we're supposed to be neutral or some such illusion. We have no way of doing a good job of choosing what is good from an author... something the editorial powers of encyclopedias have to do. You also have the sophisticated man who goes beyond inserting his own opinion in articles but instead finds quotes from academic sources that agree with him. Without having read a lot of an academic's work it's relatively difficult to represent a person's work well. On Patricia Crone there was a quote which showed her being highly critical of early Muslims. I am lucky enough to have had a chance to e-mail back and forth with her and she mentioned that it was completely missing the point of her book and that the context of the quote was non-existent. Her message wasn't that Muslims pillage but that pillaging is a way to bring fractious into a state. Which is more or less what happened during the Arab conquests. I mean, context is incredibly important and we have no mechanism to stop this kind of thing. That's why I think our Islam-related articles are pretty bad. Also... you will notice that things get worse any time there is a crisis in the Muslim world. It's a really interesting subject and incredibly complex. I sent you an e-mail so that I can give you copies of the articles if you want them. If you need anything else feel free to ask. I may drop in but I've been staying away since I see it as a relative waste of time to go back and forth. Maybe when / if we develop an decent method of peer review. gren グレン 07:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In case the Wikipedia e-mail thing fails again. Feel free to e-mail me at grenavitar [AT] hotmail.com I'll send you the stuff through my school e-mail but at least then I'll be able to get your e-mail. (Unless you don't mind posting it on my talk page--either way works). gren グレン 10:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Mainmoinds

Hi Itsmejudith,

Definitely. I don't know much about Mainmoinds. I saw those passages were referenced to Lewis and Bat Ye'or (I guess). Furthermore the new editor didn't add anything to the article, but removed the sourced material. Since Mainmoinds case is controversial, which I didn't know about, I am sorry for my revert. --Aminz 19:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Diffs

Unfortunately, Help:Diffs is the only place I know of that explains diffs well. Basically, I'd recommend this: Go to the article history of the article you want to get the diffs of. Then click the radio buttons next to the versions of the page that you want to compare. This is a diff for an edit that H.E. made on the 21st. It shows the change he made on the page. The changes are usually highlighted in red. In this case, he added the fact tag. Do you know how to do external links? If you don't, then I'll show you how. I don't want to waste your time but I also want to help as best I can. Because if you don't know how to do external links on here, you won't know how to put the diffs into the evidence page. --Woohookitty^(meow) 11:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. Yep. Looks good. --Woohookitty^(meow) 14:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation

Re: your question at Wikipedia_talk:Pages_needing_translation_into_English#What_to_do_when_cleanup_finished: probably what you were looking for was the {{Cleanup-translation}} tag. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much

Thanks so much Itsmejudith. Keeping life in the balance! This is a pearl on which the Abrahamic religions do not stress. Do you have any online link explaining this in further details through some stories? Thanks. --Aminz 09:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much again Itsmejudith. I'll check them out. --Aminz 20:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

How to read diffs

Judith, the diff you cited [1] shows that the unsigned comment lightly marked with green on the right-hand side does come from Leifern, so I don't think he can have meant he didn't make it. That's what "diff" means: it shows the "difference" between the state of a page before and after the editor who appears top right (here =Leifern) edited it. The difference in this case is the addition of the unsigned comment. Bishonen | talk 09:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

Much appreciated. I can read the diff now. Leifern said on Aminz's talk page he didn't say it and Aminz duly apologised, so did I. But on talk:Dhimmi he admits to it and says it was ironic. He has presented some reasons now about the disputed See Alsos. I'll be satisfied if he says he did not intend to accuse me of antisemitism. I've left a note on user:netscott's talk page, amended it and now need to amend it again, when I'm not even sure whether I should be bothering netscott in the first place. Bother! Itsmejudith 10:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi conflicts

Hello Itsmejudith, unfortunately as you're surely coming to realize the dhimmi article is frequently disputed and the requirement of patience comes with the territory when editing there. It is very wrong from editors to be labeling other editors as anti-semites. What you should do when you are personally attacked in such a fashion is to warn the user by citing Wikipedia:No personal attacks to them on their talk page (you can simply place the {{NPA}} template on thier page and sign it as well. If the personal attacks do not stop then you can file a report at WP:PAIN and the personal attacking editor will likely face being blocked. Unfortunately I am currently away and only have dialup access to the internet and so it's a bit difficult to interact with Wikipedia to a large degree... I'll take a better look at the situation on the article's talk page and see how I might be of assistance when I get to a cybercafe. Cheers. (→Netscott) 17:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have repeatedly explained that I have not accused anyone of being antisemitic, and I resent the charge. Do accusations of personal attacks count as personal attacks? Just wondering. --Leifern 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)