Removed
- Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical weapons were usually considered morally equivalent and referred to collectively by the phrase "NBC weapons", until this phrase was replaced by weapons of mass destruction, due to confusion about the line between chemical and biological weapons (e.g. prions which are not organisms but simple single-molecule proteins, and could thereby be considered either chemical or biological), concerns about genetic manipulation of biological entities, or nanotechnological methods to generate new molecules with lifelike characteristics, or to exude dangerous chemicals, and the danger of weapons using artificial intelligence and robotics, all of which could conceivably get beyond human control.
NBC weapons were never considered morally equivalent, and the use of WMD was not due to the division between bio and chem weapons.
chemical weapons suck
Other chemical weapons
I can't think of any way to link Lewisite into this article. I thinbk it deserves a mention though.Geni 00:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The first Chemical warfare agent which was used in WW I was chlorine by Fritz Haber. This is a lung agent which is one big groupe of chemical warvare agent which is missing.
If you mention Zyclon B as chemical warfare it gives the impression of a war against the Jews, which is absolutely misleading. Zyclon B is a simple poisonous gas which was never used in a war. It was a cheap isecticide, which was used for economic reasons to poison millions of innocent civilans.
If you mention Zyclon B then you have to mention also the gas chamber for capital punishment in which the same chemicals are used as in concentration camps HCN.
- I'm okay with the cut; the reasoning seems perfectly good. ClockworkTroll 04:11, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Zyklon B
Regarding Zyklon B: there has been some debate as to whether the use of Zyklon B by the Nazis to exterminate human beings constitutes chemical warfare.
On one hand, it's not technically an act of war. On the other hand, it was a horrific act of genocide. At the moment, I'm somewhat torn (though I'm leaning towards accepting it because of the latter).
ClockworkTroll 03:42, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Genocide is not warfare. To extend this you would also have to add CO which was also used.Geni 03:54, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To play Devil's Advocate, it can be argued that genocide is an act of aggression similar to, but worse than, war. To extend that same argument, it is not the equivalent of capital punishment because it is not a sentace resulting from a crime. What are your thought? ClockworkTroll 04:05, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Genocide may or may not be worse than war. It is not however war.Geni 04:28, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I saw above that your opposition to listing the use of Zyklon B on this page is based on the fact that we would then need to list chemicals employed in capital punishment, implying that you feel that Zyklon's use in this capacity is a moral equivalent to capital punishment. Am I wrong in this deduction?
- that wasn't meGeni 16:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry - my mistake.
Also, I'm curious as to how you define war. The The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition defines it as "A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties". Does the Nazi activites against the Jews and other minorities not fit this definition? ClockworkTroll 16:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- In my experience conflict involes both sides fighting. With the exceoption of a few localised incidents the Jews were unable to fight back.Geni 16:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I thought you might say that, and it's an understandable point. My thought is, however, is that a "state of war" exists between two parties where there is adequate antagonism between them such that members of either side can expect the other side to attack them at any time. It seems to me that, although the Jews were subjugated, they would have attacked the Nazis whenever they could, and usually did on the rare occasions that they were presented with the opportunity. So, therefore, it seems to me that subjugating an entire group and/or committing acts of genocide against them is in itself an act of war. ClockworkTroll 16:53, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- However when open conflict was entered into (Warsaw ghetto uprising is the main one I'm thinking of) Zyklon B was not used.Geni 17:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I really do see your logic, but I'm not 100% sold, so want to explore all of our logical avenues here: by the above definition, both parties were in a state of war whether or not they were in active fighting. I think that we can agree that to say that they were in a state of peace when not actively killing one another is absurd. Therefore, how is using HCN to efficiently kill hundreds of people, with whom you are in a state of war, not use of a chemical weapon? ClockworkTroll 18:21, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Becuase they were not in a state of war. Conflitcs were isolated and there is no real evidence of the jew, gays or romany fighting as a common group so there was no state of war between these groups and the germans. There were localised conflicts but Zyklon B (and other chemical weapons) were not used. Zyklon B was only used on those who were not fighting.Geni 18:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Maybe we would do best to first agree on the meaning of a "state of war". I favor the propsed by Thomas Hobbes: that a state of war is one in which you can expect that a party will attack you given the opportunity. To say that populations are only at war when actively engaged in fighting implies that they are at peace when not in the act of literally killing each another, and I still think we can agree that this is absurd, right? Even if those subjugated by the Nazis could not fight, is there any disagreement that they would have if they could have (I cite the Warsaw ghetto uprising as an example)? By extension, this implies that war cannot be truly one-sided: everybody involved is in a state of war, even if there is a huge imbalance of power. That's what I mean by a "state of war". What do you think? ClockworkTroll 19:04, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The problem with this defintion is that the Warsaw ghetto uprising didn't happen until quite late. The jews didn't attacks when given the opportunity.Geni 19:22, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The timeline isn't a problem, because it did happen. It may not have been until late, but it did happen. An informed person living near the beginning of those times would have understood the feelings of the Jews, and therefore would have had every reason to expect that such uprisings could have happened at any point. (The point I'm working on here is desire, not what was practical.) Do you think I'm wrong to say that? ClockworkTroll 19:37, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- But that doesn't fit your defintion. It states that group A will try and attack group B when given the opertunity. It doesn't say anything about desire. Geni 19:47, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Of course it does. If group A desires to attack group B, it will - given the opportunity; thats that's the basis of my conclusion. To get back on track, do you accept that as a definition of the state of war? If not, why not, and do you have another proposal? ClockworkTroll 20:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- But the jews didn't attack when they could. We know that there was a group that desired to attack the british in india. They didn't but you would still claim that was a war.Geni 20:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- If the Indians were representative of the population as a whole, I would say that they were in a state of war. After all, how would you feel if you were occupied and dominated by people form another nation? I think that you may still be thinking in terms of battlefields and gunfire, and a state of war is not always like that. How can you say the Jews could have attacked? Peoples so deeply subjugated as the Jews at the time still had alot to lose if they held an uprising, and with such a huge power difference between them and the Germans, they probably didn't think an uprising would have much effect (and they would have thought so correctly). I think that it can be said without error that the majority of the Jews (and others so subjugated) wanted nothing more than to kill as many Nazis as possible, and would have if they thought they could do it and get away with it. If that's not war, then what is? Please tell me: what do you think the state of war is? ClockworkTroll 20:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)