Do we really need three pictures in a six-paragraph article? -- Zoe
Does it really bother you that much? All 3 pics have a purpose, one shows her normally, one shows her in uniform, and one shows her just before the fascists ran her over. Susan Mason
Fascists? -- Zoe
This stupid idiot jumped in front of a moving bulldozer, and yet you blame the Israeli Jewish government as "fascists" for her self-inflicted death? That's sick, if not outright anti-Semitic. And why do we have zero photos for people murdered by Hamas, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad terrorists? This smacks of an anti-Jewish propaganda. Seriously. RK
- LOL, anti-jewish propaganda. Susan's comments were kept strictly on the talk page. Perhaps you would like to point out to us what exactly in the article is propaganda? (BTW, I agree that 3 photos are not necessary). You are of course free to start and add pictures to articles on individuals killed by Hamas, etc. --snoyes 03:13 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Bulldozing people is not acceptable behavior. The reason we do not have more photos on this site is because you spend more time accusing me of assaulting Judaism, then u spend uploading photos. RK, what I find sick is your derision of this person as a "stupid idiot". Do you have no compassion? Susan Mason
Later, as a group of people gathered, a Palestinian man was shot and killed by the IDF.
President Bush gave an ultimatum to the leadership of Iraq today. Later, I ate some pasta with grated cheese. Seriously, that sentence seems awkward and unrelated to the article. Perhaps if we could find the reason why the Palestinian man was shot, we could find a reason for it to be in the article. -- cprompt 05:53 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Well they ran her over, then as people gathered to say, "What the gvdl is wrong with the Israeli military" they opened fire on the crowd. So it does seem related. Susan Mason
This article doesn't make sense, in one paragraph she's run over through being sucked off the top of a pile of rubble. In the next paragraph she has sand poured on her and is then run over. Also, could you cite a reference for her shouting 'my back is broken'? I've done some searching and can find nothing about it. I find it quite hard to believe that from beneath a pile of sand and over the noise of a bulldozer she could be heard shouting.
I think there's a reason that, for example, the BBC don't go into the details of her death [1], namely that seperating truth from propaganda hasn't yet been possible. There isn't any concensus amongst news sites as to how she exactly died so I don't think that if we're supposed to be presenting fact that we should yet have details of how she died. -- Ams80 12:16 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
- Both passages are from official statements by the International Solidarity Movement. She was not heard saying "My back is broken" from beneath the rubble, but after they dug her out of the rubble. Susan Mason
Each of us is entitled to give our opinions on this talk page. Some may blame Israel, calling the killing "unacceptable behavior", while others may blame the girl. The article should take neither point of view, but just tell what happened. Let each reader form their own moral evaluation.
Also, it might be interesting to explain why that bulldozer was operating in that area. And the Arab who got shot, was that the guy who resisted arrest by Israeli troops and then opened fire on them his rooftop, or am I confusing that with another recent incident? There's so much violence in the region that it's easy to portray one side or another as the "bad guys", merely by carefully and quietly concealing their motives.
For example, "NYC police shot another black man today." Was it a summary execution, a botched arrest, a racial profiling incident, or did the suspect himself shoot at police first? Or what? Without providing the background, it can mislead people. Which is why propagandists generally omit the background on purpose.
I don't want the Wikipedia to be used for propaganda:
- to support my own causes, or
- to support causes I oppose
It should remain neutral, or else partisans will destroy it.
Let's just describe what each side thinks, and why -- while also presenting whatever facts are not in dispute. --Uncle Ed
- Wow, that statement is quite astonishing considering the POV changes you just made to the article: Your summary: "shifting some of the implied responsibility from the bulldozer operater to the girl" - I thought we were not here to blame people - just to report the facts. Your summary: "Moved 2 out-of-place sentences. Are they better placed now, or?" Infact you only moved one sentence and deleted the other. --snoyes 18:13 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
Moved from the article:
- Later, as a group of people gathered in the vicinity, a Palestinian man was shot and killed by the IDF.
Is this the same man described in the news account below?
- "Undercover troops surrounded the four-story home of Mohammed Saafen, 34, a leader of the militant Islamic Jihad group in central Gaza. Saafen's relatives came out of the house, but the fugitive (news - Y! TV) barricaded himself inside and shot at soldiers, drawing return fire." [2]
If it's not the same man, please provide some context for the statement, and then put that statement back into the article. --Uncle Ed
I agree with Uncle Ed - this article _badly_ needs some NPOV'ing and ASAP!
PMelvilleAustin 18:08 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
To answer my own question (above), it would seem that whoever the man was, it was in a separete incident. Please follow this link, which I got from the user:RachelCorrie page.