Archived at: Talk:World_War_II_Archive_1
Should we keep Finland in the "minor Axis power" ? The Finland had a terrible choice between Stalin and Hitler. They had a war with the Soviet when they where allied to Hitler. When Hilter broke his alliance with Stalin they helped the Nazi to fight the Soviets and then fighted the Nazis themselve, they had no other choice than realpolitik IMO.
Ericd 21:28 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
- A good point, Eric. On the face of things, I agree with you. The only worry I have about it is that it might open a whole can of worms. Are there other countries that the same could apply to? Where would we draw the line? Tannin 23:22 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
The comment about realpolitik has not to be in the article, but I insist about removing Finland from Axis powers. The case of Finland is very special : - Finland wasn't at war during all the WWII and was never at war with all the Allies. - They had help from the Allies during the first war against USSR. - The agreement with the German was not a full aliance Finland only let German troops cross it's teritory, this caused war with the UK but not with the USA.
Ericd 23:45 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)
OK, I guess we can deal with any flow-on effect to other countries if and when we have to. Tannin
Hmmm... Tannin I would insist about removing France from minor allied powers simply because who were the major allied power in 1939 : France and UK. More seriously we should do something else : removing minor and major and adding a comment for special cases like Finland, France, USSR, USA and certainly others. Ericd 00:10 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
Sure, France had a lot of troops and ships and aircraft, but they played a very minor role in the war just the same - and, indeed, fought on the Axis side as Vichy France, whicch was nominally neutral but try telling that to (for example) the 7th Div AIF soldiers who died. Tannin
I have a question. End of the first paragraph; Why is the United States listed alongside Japan and Germany as having partaken in the "genocidal killings". Also, you may want to add that the Soviets refer to World War II as The Great Patriotic War.
Theamer 12:09 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
Good question, Theamer. It all depends on the defenition of "genocide". Here on the Wikipedia, it seems to be the done thing to take a very narrow view of what is meant by "genocide". The majority view appears to be that it doesn't matter how many people you kill, just so long as you don't actually claim to be doing it on the basis of race. Or something - I did read an extensive talk page on that subject but I have got a bit vague about it already - probably because I couldn't quite escape the nagging feeling that the ultra-narrow definition was primarily chosen to make damn sure that the word "genocide" would never be used when talking about our side.
This makes the mention of the United States in the WW2 article contra SWV (Standard Wiki View). I guess someone snuck it in and no-one noticed it till now. Myself, I'm inclined to take a broad view of "genocide" and regard it as simply "the thing you call it when you kill a hell of a lot of more-or-less defenceless people". In which case, of course, the US listing should most certainly stay: not so much for the obvious and hackneyed examples of Hiroshma and Nagasaki, as for the less obvious but more deadly ones of Tokyo and Dresden. This, in turn, requires that the United Kingdom also be included, as there is not the slightest doubt that the night bombing campaign over Germany killed a lot more people than the USAAF's day campaign did - after all, a Lanacster or a Halifax carried somewhere between two and five times the bomb load of a B-17 or even a B-24. (At night, you don't have to carry such an enormous weight of defensive armament.) And, since we are trying to be logical about things, you had better include the British Commonwealth too—the Commonwealth nations contributed mightily to the British bombing campaign. And, no doubt, any of the other serious belligerants we haven't mentioned yet.
But I'll be howled down if I dare intrude such a rational view into the entry, no doubt. So you might as well take out the words "United States" and save everyone the trouble.
Better yet, maybe you can think of a less loaded phrase to use instead of that word "genocide". Then, with the meaning of the phrase more clear and (one hopes) uncontroversial, it should be a simple matter to include those countries that should properly be included under it, and exclude the others. Tannin
Oh. Your other point. If it was up to me, I'd rename the whole darn entry to Great Patriotic War. The Soviets did most of the fighting, after all, seems to me they earned the right to name it whatever they please; earned it the hard way. But no-one else would agree with me on that one either, so perhaps we'd better just add Great Patriotic War somewhere in the body text. Tannin 12:49 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
Thanks. Well put. With Anti-American sentiment being sold on the cheap throughout the world right now, I found it disconcerting that an educational tool would be so politically biased (but then I guess it's the people who wrote it that were biased, rather than encyclopedia itself).
On top of being insulted as an American, I also think it is very demeaning to those who actually suffered under genocide. Whatever people may think about what has been done in the name of war, it can in no way be seriously compared to the systematic extermination of races of people. Large groups of Jews were forced to walk into purpose built death chambers and their corpses were then burned in furnaces - like some sort of death assembly line (...even in murder, the Germans had to find the most efficient way to do things). Undefended Chinese villages saw their women and children burned alive in the streets. They weren't asked to surrender; or to leave. They were simply being removed - as one might cut down trees to clear a path for a road; no diplomacy.
Now that is genocide. You know? You can't compare that to a severe bombing campaign, even when considering the horribly slow deaths that thousands suffered in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those were legitimate military targets. Millions of leaflets had been dropped over their cities urging them to surrender before hand. And when they ultimately did surrender, the killing stopped; there was diplomacy. The use of atomic bombs was a tactical decision designed to destroy important military targets as well as to instill a sense of (yeah, I'm gonna say it...) shock & awe in order to bring the final stage of the war to an end quickly. It worked.
And, if I recall correctly (once more in defense of my country), the United States was morally opposed to bombing civilian targets and was the LAST country to begin doing so. I don't mean to contradict your view of the war, as you appear to be well versed on the subject (more so than myself, anyway); but, I think it is horribly unfair to put a negative tilt on what the U.S. did in World War II. Especially considering that it wasn't even a war the U.S. signed up for. Saying that America committed atrocities in WW2 is just the type of misinformation that is used to spread the flames of Anti-American hatred.
Overall, I think it is important to mention the genocide in a description of WW2. It was a big motivating factor for the Germans; extermination of the Jews was part of the Nazi justification of the war (at least to themselves). And the Japanese extermination of the Chinese is important in that it ended up being a big motivating factor for the Chinese shift to communism - which, consequently, has shaped much of our current world politics. But those incidents of true genocide should not be confused with massive amounts of collateral damage the resulted from the war.
Oh, and, just to get technical, hehe, the Soviet's didn't exactly do most of the fighting - they just did most of the dying. Have you seen Enemy at the Gates (2001)? That's got a great opening scene showing a Soviet's view of the war.
Theamer 03:22 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Uh, don't base your opinion of the Soviet role in WWII on a movie; check out Albert Seaton's book or something else reputable. The scale was gigantic, makes Overlord look like a beach party. Our boys had a lot of trouble with the remnants of the German army that could be spared for the western front; it's disconcerting to speculate on we might have fared if so many German units hadn't been chewed up by three years of fighting in Russia. Stan 04:13 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
A small fraction of the German forces was engaged on the Western Front, and that fraction was almost entirely the lower quality part of their army. If Germany had not attacked Russia, and Russia had not attacked Germany, then Germany would have had an overwhelming victory over all of Europe and Africa and the Middle East. Its a shame that the American education system is so biased that it barely even mentions to students that Russia was in the war, let alone describing its role in the war. Dietary Fiber
- What makes you think that the American education system is so inferior? Is it necessary to turn every damn article in the Wikipedia into something anti-American? -- Zoe
As for genocide, the Allies were clearly guilty of warcrimes and committed such crimes as apartheid, intentional targeting of noncombatants, forced deportation, inhumane acts, and indiscriminate attack. I believe the Allied bombing campaigns were genocidal because they showed no concern for civilian lives of targeted enemy racial/ethnic/national groups.
As for Zoe, the American education system is inferior. Americans are, on average, some of the most uneducated people. This is not surprising from an anti-capitalism perspective where one realizes that the goal of American policies is to make money and that it does not behoov the American aristocracy to teach their people truth. Dietary Fiber