Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

Introduction

There are many different opinions among Irish people as well as to Wikipedians in general. This Manual of Style is designed to codify these guidelines in order to avoid future edit wars in regard to English and Irish names. Above all, when in doubt, use English. ℬastique▼^talk 30 June 2005 16:24 (UTC)

Ros Muc

I fail to see the point of insisting on the English spelling of Ros Muc. It reads and is pronounced the same in both languages, unlike other names that would be mispronounced by readers unfamiliar with Irish.

Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)

Precisely because it is the English spelling--and the English spelling is notable enough, and it's, well, the English spelling. ℬastique▼^talk 30 June 2005 21:01 (UTC)

I must explain further: This is an English language Wikipedia. I've found the spelling Rosmuck on maps of the area, although there are some with the words (Ros Muc) underneath. The rule of thumb is, when in doubt, use English. WP:UE says, Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. Except in maps specifically about the Gaeltacht area, I have continuously seen Rosmuck used to spell the name of the town. ℬastique▼^talk 30 June 2005 21:07 (UTC)

I agree with Bastique on this - we must adopt a flexiable and common sense approach to this policy. Using Irish names is often only a form of drum banging and is highly dubious at best - quite frankly, as I have said before, their is ga.wikipedia.org. I use Irish language terms where appropriate or point out that they are, in fact, official but their is no point in "sticking" it in each article for the sake of inclusion (or worse using it as a article title) and in particular the use of several variations of the Irish name is a particular disease that needs curing and is excessive. Djegan 30 June 2005 21:13 (UTC)

I take your point on the drum banging, I've seen it. My point was not specifically about Rosmuck. I just don't think it's a good example for the guideline given, as both versions would be pronounced accurately by some-one with no knowledge of Irish. This would not be the case for Inis Mór (Inishmore), which in my opinion would make it a better example. I don't think the article should be renamed or that the Irish version should be used gratuitously, although it's good that there is a redirect for Ros Muc. Articles on Gaeltacht towns and villages should also spell out clearly that the English name is not the official one.

Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 21:51 (UTC)

If you read the example again, you'll see that it explicitly states Where English and Irish name are the same or similar, but English and Irish spelling differ, use the English spelling. Actually, I would have had no idea that Inis Mór and Inishmore sound identical. ℬastique▼^talk 30 June 2005 22:53 (UTC)

I would argue that for Gaeltacht (Irish speaking) areas like Ros Muc and Inis Mór, the correct spelling is the Irish spelling rather than the English version. Peoples names and place names should be exempt from the "this is an english encyclopedia rule". This is particularly true since a new law in Ireland plans to phase out all official usage of English placenames for Gaeltacht areas. Bandraoi 00:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Since the enacting of the Official Languages Act 2003 the continued use of the anglicised versions of placenames in Gaeltacht areas makes no sense at all. All road signs and official maps are now using the defined name in Irish. This practice is aleady beginning to lead to the up-dating of tourist maps. To continue to cling to the use of, often multiple, anglicised versions is unfair to those planning on visiting the country. I would suggest the way forward is to use a format similar to: Árainn (also sometimes called Inis Mór and anglicised as Inishmore. A reference to the act in relevant articles wopuld also help clarify. Whatever peoples' views on this topic Wikipedia articles should reflect the signage etc. of the area being written on. Taibhdhearc 14:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You've somehow missed the entire point. This is an English wikipedia. Calling the English name for the town the "anglicised" name does not change the fact that it's the English name for the town, regardless of whether or not the town name exists on maps. There are a tremendous number of Irish persons involved in the Wikipedia project and we are well versed with Official Languages Act 2003. Please respect the fact, however, that this is not the Gaeilge wikipedia, and English will and must be used. Bastique▼^parler _voir 15:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that isn't a point that I missed. If we in Ireland decide to call a town 'Z' and then proceed to use this name on all our signposts and goverment publications surely it makes perfect sense to adapt to this situation. In fact the word 'rosmuck', for example, is not an English word per se. A name is a tag to aid someone in recognising a location, particularly important if you are trying to find a place. I wouldn't recommend an article on Kingstown, Queenstown or Marysborough although a reference to the use of these names for an historic period might aid someone beginning to research history on a given area. Taibhdhearc 15:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You are indeed missing the point. The official name of London is just that, but you don't see any of use nipping over to fr:Londres and attempting to move it, do you? On this wikipedia, we use the English names for things, just as on frwiki they use French names. If you're so desperate about using Gaeilge, go to the Gaeilge Vicipéid: I'm sure they'd make you welcome. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 16:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe the expression is 'the exception that proves the rule'. London is referred to as Londres on the fr.wikipedia but that is not carried through to other towns and cities, much as English people use 'Le Harve' today. It is, of course, an interesting area of debate on the respect of local naming conventions, even to the level of state names. While I would accept there is probably no black and white in this topic it would be a good thing, I believe, to see respect for the naming conventions of the local population, nevermind the whole signposting and mapping aspects. Taibhdhearc 16:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Placenames Orders: watch this space

For contributers wanting to fill articles with a myriad of alternative Irish spellings, watch this space [1]. Statutory orders have been made for some places within counties and also for all provinces and counties within the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 30 June 2005 21:13 (UTC)

Spelling English

Of course I want to include a section on precicely which English to use, but I'm unsure of the ways that proper UK English and proper Ireland English differ. Have the Irish disposed of that rather ugly use of "-ise" instead of "-ize" that almost nobody except the Brits seem to retain? ℬastique▼^talk 30 June 2005 23:23 (UTC)

Actually Irish people use ise rather than ize. Many people are irritated by the Americanised ize. Hiberno-English opts to use ise where popular. I think your belief that it is only the Brits who want to keep ise is way wide of the mark. It is still widely used in International English. In fact ize is seen as part in many parts of the world as part of American linguistic imperialism. FearÉIREANN\^(talk) 1 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)

It's not just "Brits" and Irish who use "-ise", but also Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, most Europeans educated using British English, most Indians, some Caribbean peoples, etc. See Manual of Style (spelling). --Mark from Oz 16:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

They would think that, and they would be wrong, because -ize is more widely use internationally than say, -or in color, and it was the original spelling of words. Americans imported it from the UK, before a spelling was standardised. Back during British Imperialism. The change occurred after we separated, and in Britain, not over here! Reason being was the derivative Latin/greek root words contained a "z" and not an "s". ℬastique▼^talk 1 July 2005 23:13 (UTC)

The reason for this is that those international organisations have adopted the spelling from the OED as standard, which uses "-ize" over "-ise". I always thought words derived from Latin were spelt "-ise" not "-ize"? --Mark from Oz

I should point out that dictionaries published in England often contain both spellings, with "ize" first. This is certainly not some recent occurance, owing to American linguiztic imperializm. ℬastique▼^talk 1 July 2005 23:22 (UTC)

Yes, some dictionaries use "-ize" first (ie. OED, Collins), but others use "-ise" first (ie. Chambers). Relying on dictionaries for standard spelling is a bit unwise, esp. OED and Collins. For common spellings in the UK, I would suggest Chambers. If your still unsure look at government documents, British newspapers and the BBC, then you'll get a good idea what is standard spelling in the UK. --Mark from Oz 16:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Surely dictionaries include words in alphabetical order ie ise comes before ize

But all I wanted was an answer to a question, not political discourse! ℬastique▼^talk 1 July 2005 23:24 (UTC)

proposed MoS addition on Irish names of people

Correct Irish orthography in naming people

1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we do not refer to Martin Kyne but to Mairtín Ó Cadhain etc.

2. In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stiofáin etc. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.

3. In Irish, the O in surnames always takes an accent and is always followed by a space, e.g. Tomás Ó Deirg.

4. When transcribing from old Gaelic script, please relect the modern and standard forms of Irish spelling, especially in the use of the letter h. Thus, Aed becomes Aedh or Aodh, Domnall becomes Domhnall, Ruaidri becomes Ruaidhrí.

5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.

---

Damac added these in to the MoS page. He probably didn't know that unilateral changes need to go here first and be discussed, not directly on MoS pages without discussion.

Some of them are also incompatible with the overall MoS and so cannot be applied.

For example:

1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia.

That is not Wikipedia policy at all. Its policy is to use the version of a name used by English speakers. If English speakers use Mairtín Ó Cadhain and Mairtín Ó Muilleoir, as they do, then that is what is used. But though he called himself Sean T Ó Ceallaigh, because English speakers know him as Sean T. O'Kelly the second president's name is written as Sean T. O'Kelly.

Wikipedia uses Taoiseach not because that is what the Irish prime minister is called in the Constitution but because people use Taoiseach in English. In contrast it does not use the Spanish title for Spain's prime minister because that name, unlike Taoiseach, is not used by English speakers. Similarly Wikipedia uses Kaiser because the word is used by English speakers to refer to the German Emperor. But, though he too was a Kaiser, we call the Austrian monarch Emperor because English speakers never use Kaiser when referring to Austrian Emperors. We use Wilhelm II of Germany, not William, because Wilhelm is used by English speakers so it will be recognised. But we call the last Russian Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, not Nikolai which is what he called himself, because English speakers know him as Nicholas, and would not recognise an article on Nikolai II of Russia.

Because each language Wikipedia has names in it from around the world, the rule is that each Wikipedia, whether in English, French, German, Italian, Irish or whichever, only uses the form of name familiar to users of that Wikipedia. If the native name is familiar to users of that Wikipedia it is used. If it isn't, the version they know is used. So on the Italian Wikipedia, there is no Taoiseach because no-one in Italian calls Bertie Ahern that.

The golden rule on this English Wikipedia is that the form of name used by English speakers; not the English language version nor the native language version, but whichever readers will recognise. So it is Mairtín Ó Cadhain but Sean T. O'Kelly, Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh but Rory O'Connor, Taoiseach but President of Ireland, etc. is used. If a MoS entry is created to make Irish language names different to all others then it is likely to be deleted on sight by users because everyone across all languages has to follow the one set of rules, with no deviations. Each language cannot follow its own we're doing it differently rule.

FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The rest of the proposed additions seem to make sense and conform with standard usage in Ireland, and I would support them, with two exceptions:

• • no. 4 is ambiguous; most Irish speakers would pick up the reference to "standard forms" as meaning forms canonised by the Caighdean Oifigiuil or in line with the spelling reform contained therein. I don't think this is what's meant, but there are also different practices widespread in standardising first names (v. common e.g. Seaghan -> Seán) and surnames (less common and rather dubious). This should be clarified.
  • no. 5: I believe wikipedia software has problems with alphabetisation of accented characters, so this may need to be adapted e.g. for category entries? Palmiro 19:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Point 4 is very ambiguous. How such names are transcribed depends entirely on context. In referring to Old Irish it could be quite valid to retain the original spelling and some old spellings are simply the normal way of referring to people. Let not go overboard with standardising. —Moilleadóir 07:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that. These were simply proposals and I thought the main page was a work in progress so to speak. Thanks for all the feedback, that's what I was looking for.

I'm aware of the official naming policy in Wikipedia but think that some careful consideration should be given when naming Irish biographical articles. While I understand your position, I can't help but think that it completely contradicts much of what you have been saying in relation to the Irish Republican Army as most English speakers view and identify the Provos with the Irish Republican Army. I digress.

I have always seen, heard and used the Irish version of Sean T. O'Kelly. His is a relatively straight forward case but English speaks often refer to Irish personalities with gaelicised names in a variety of ways. Take for example the name the 1970s Provo leader Dáithí Ó Conaill. He was registered at birth as David O'Connell but chose to go under the Irish version of his name. In the 1970s and 1980s, his first and surname was spellt in numerous ways, namely

• First name: Dáithí, Daithí, Daithi, David and Dave
• Surname: Ó Conaill, O Conaill, O Connail, O Connaill, Ó Connail, O'Connell, O'Conaill

I'm not that good at maths, but there are so many variations of his name. Try any combination and you'll find it on google.

In this particular case, I think the only way to deal with the problem is to use the name Ó Conaill himself used. This problem is widespread, and not just in Irish names. Thus, we have (with appropriate redirects) pages on Gerhard Schröder, Slobodan Milošević, Józef Piłsudski, Nicolae Ceauşescu to provide a few examples. I find this extremely helpful as I learn once and for all how these names are correctly written.

Dáithí Ó Conaill is very straightforward. That was his name. There is no confusion in terms of fact. Ó Conaill is simply the original of the anglicised O'Connell/Connell etc etc. O' is obviously incorrect, and the O without the fada is used when people cannot put the fada, but are giving the respect of acknowledging it's an Irish language prefix.

You mentioned Kaiser Wilhelm and Czar Nicholas. The Kaiser was not always known as Wilhelm by English speakers - thing of all the British slogans during the first world war. These names of course were developed in a time when there was far less sensitivity for foreign names and nowadays, the more autoratative media makes an attempt to use the names that people use for themselves.

Words like Taoiseach etc are different as they are not personal names. These change in context and English speakers refer to prime minister/premier/leader etc Tony Blair.

Of course, the English-speaking Irish wikipedians should not seek special rules, it should simply adapt what other English-speaking wikipedians have done when naming other biographical articles.--Damac 10:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The point regarding the Kaiser is not that everyone called him Wilhelm in English. They didn't. But it was used widely enough to be recognisable. Therefore the native name works by recognition and can be used. Nikolai II in contrast does not, but Umberto II of Italy does. Daithí Ó Conaill is IMHO the most recognisable version. Sean MacEoin is recognisable, Sean Mac Eoin, with the additional spacing, is not and should only be used for the Irish version of the name, not the name used in English. The rule on Wikipedia is not to use the person's name as they use it, but to use the version as generally used. Sean T. always used the Irish language version of his name. Ernest Blythe did too. But as neither were generally known, however they might have wished otherwise, by their Irish name, it would be completely wrong to use it in articles here. If Gerhard Schröder was known to English speakers as Gerry Shroder, then that is how Wikipedia would name him. Luckily for him his native name is what is also used in English. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 14:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

FÉ, your opinions are based on purely subjective criteria. Daithí Ó Conaill (minus fada on the first a) may be IYHO the most recognisable form, but that does not make for good naming policy. Depending on their knowledge of the person in question or of the Irish language, people in Ireland, the UK and the US would come up with their own recognisable version that they would swear by. To avoid that confusion, I think that its best to go for the original name used by that person and in currency. What's the big problem there. IMHO it avoids confusion and will contribute to a standardisation and correct usage of the name in the media and research.

In pre-word processing days (up to 10-15 years ago), Schröder would always have been referred to as either Schroder or Schroeder (like Hitler was known as Adolph for many English speakers - 195,000 hits on google; we also had "Conrad Adenauer"). Thanks to the ease at which modern technology allows us to use umlauts, fadas, hacheks, etc., and the simple process of finding correct forms on the internet (via reliable encyclopaedias), correct forms of names are being used and are a feature in informed writing and journalism.

O'Kelly and Blythe did use their Irish names but I can safely say that I have never heard Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh being referred to as anything but by that name. I accept that Earnán de Blaghd (the Irish version of his name was incorrect when I looked it up) never gained widespread currency however. --Damac 07:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Unless that usage is established in a specific case, spelling Irish-language names without a space between Mac and the rest of the surname is simply a mis-spelling, just as wrong as Seán ÓFaoileáin or Roberto deNiro or Vincent vanGogh. Palmiro 14:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Any chance we could get this one sorted out - it's been lying here since August. I've read through the comments and have modified my proposals thus:--Damac 16:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Right now this MoS subpage only deals with geographical articles, but it needs to be extended to biographical articles. I think it's uncontroversial to say people best known in English by their English name (e.g. Mary McAleese) should be listed under that name and not under their Irish name (e.g. Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa). Likewise people who only use their Irish name, even in English contexts, should be listed under their Irish name (e.g. Cathal Ó Searcaigh). But there was a kerfuffle a while back about Geoffrey Keating, who is best known in English as that, but who was Irish-speaking and probably never used that name himself. The compromise we found was to follow the example of Ovid and list the article under Geoffrey Keating but have the first sentence read "Seathrún Céitinn, known in English as Geoffrey Keating, was...". Does this sound like a reasonable addition? --Angr (tɔk) 16:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I think that's appropriate. ℬastique▼^parℓer♥^voir♑ 18:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Correct Irish orthography in naming people

• 1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we do refer to Mairtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tom Fee, etc.

• 2. In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stiofáin etc. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.

• 3. In Irish orthography, note that the Ó in surnames always takes an accent and is followed by a space, e.g. Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiach, etc.

• 4. When transcribing from old Irish texts which contain lenited letters (séimhiú), please relect the modern and standard forms of Irish spelling and replace the séimhiú with a 'h'. Thus, Aed or Aod becomes Aedh or Aodh, Domnall becomes Domhnall, Ruaidri becomes Ruaidhrí, etc.

5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.

Support this, except that no. 4 would be better simply as "replace the seimhiu with a 'h'". Palmiro | Talk 14:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

incorporated your suggestion, thanks. --Damac 14:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Merely wish to clarify that no. 1 should read Thus, we refer to Mairtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne rather than as it does, Thus, we do not refer to Mairtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne. Steve block talk 14:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

incorporated your suggestion, thanks. --Damac 14:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

As this has been in discussion since August and no further commments/objections have been made to my proposals, I have added Correct Irish orthography in naming people to the article page. --Damac 09:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Good move. Are there any remaining objections to points 3, 4 and 5? I would like a slight copyedit to 4, but I think they should go in as well - or are they still contentious? Palmiro | Talk 11:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Woops, I see I misread the situation. I have made my proposed copyedit: basically I want point four to be as clear and unambiguous as possible, and not to raise the thorny question of standardising spellings to the Caighdean Oifigiuil form. Palmiro | Talk 12:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetisation of "Mc" and "Mac" in surnames

I have found no reference to this on Wikipedia. I would like to see all surnames that begin with "Mc" alphabetised as though they were "Mac", e.g. in categories. This is what the eircom phonebook does. A number of Irish Wikipedians also seem to do it this way. You will find categories with a mixture of both policies.

Obviously, this would affect the MoS for the whole of Wikipedia; it can't be contained to Irish articles. Scottish editors might also have an opinion on the matter, and, of course, many Americans have "Mc" surnames. What do people think? Ian Cheese 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

US phone books have Mac and Mc alphabetized separately (no special treatment vs. other names). You're right that it can't be contained to Irish articles, which makes Ireland-specific style probably not work in this case. But at least Ireland doesn't have it as bad as Iceland in terms of world phone book organization disparity! :) --Craig Stuntz 13:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've started a more general discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#Category_sort_key:_surnames jnestorius^(talk) 13:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland

I think we need guidelines about what terms to use for the 2 jurisdictions on Ireland, particularly in category names. Here are some proposals to get a discussion started. For the purposes of this discussion I refer to the 3 areas as C6, C26 and C32 based on number of traditional counties in each. Joestynes 13:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I largely agree that their is need for an official policy but any use of "of Ireland" needs to be reserved and only in cases where their is a genuine need for it for official titles. The vast majority of articles and category must have "of Republic of Ireland". It needs to be enforceable and sensible, and simple. Djegan 18:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

These look sensible enough. Would the Republic of Ireland not be an acceptable term to use for the period 1937-1949? I appreciate the state at that time did not use the term, but the only other suggestions I can come up with are State of Ireland (1937-1949) or Ireland (political state 1937-1949), and whilst I appreciate the call for factual accuracy, on the balancing hand is the call for accessibility. Steve block talk 14:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I understand your reasoning behind the need to use Republic of Ireland in categories in so far as possible. My belief has long being that their are exceptions where Ireland, as distinct from Republic of Ireland, is an absolute requirement with official titles of offices and organs of state to maintain the integrity of presenting these titles without made up or inaccurate terms. I am not asking for a policy that will convert every use of the Republic of Ireland to Ireland. For instance official title President of Ireland, theirfore we have category:Presidents of Ireland but for generic categories such as Category:Politics of the Republic of Ireland, or Category:Political office-holders in the Republic of Ireland these should stay as they are with "of Republic of Ireland" - anybody asking for the contrary would be unreasonable. This "dual use" approach will not cause many problems as long as it is used in a consistent and uniform fashion and not a free for all. Djegan 20:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Note the guidelines are intended to cover all of:

1. references within articles
2. names of articles
3. names of categories

These may not have the same issues. The Emergency can be in Category:History of the Republic of Ireland but should not itself refer to the "Republic of Ireland". A bit of rephrasing to dodge the issue is possible in articles, but not so easy in titles. Category:Prime Ministers of C26 is still something I would like to see; there is a danger at the moment of Categories separating pre- and post-1937 articles artificially. Joestynes 16:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The 1937 issue is not a major problem as some pre 1937 articles and titles will have Irish Free State as part of the title, for instance Category:Government in the Irish Free State. History is always a fuzzy term for exact dates so Category:History of the Republic of Ireland can continue to have a pre Republic of Ireland article in it without much fuss.

What I am concerned about though is that where an official title (of and office or organ of state) is used it must reflect the official name of the state (simply Ireland) if it existed before 1949, but after 1937. Thus for instance Category:Mayors of the Republic of Ireland is acceptable as it is not a title but simply a category of mayors, but Category:Presidents of Ireland is a must as it directly reflects the title of an office of state. When you say Category:Prime Ministers of C26, does C26 mean an as yet undefined name, hopefully not a category with C26? Also "Prime Ministers" may in itself cause issues, Taoiseach is better. Djegan 19:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course C26 is a nonstarter as a potential name for "Independent Ireland from 1922 to the present", it's just a placeholder. Taoiseach is definitely not appropriate pre-1937. If people think "Prime Minister" is too British we could use "Head of Government", although (a) "Government" is itself ambiguous; (b) The 1937 constitution itself describes the Taoiseach as the Prime minister; (c) we already have Category:Irish heads of government which encompasses Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland. Anyway, this is all wandering off the point, which is: do we need an overarching name for C26[1922-present], and, if so, what? Joestynes 09:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe we need a overarching name for 1922 to present as we have two distinct political systems operating in the twenty-six counties during this time, viz Irish Free State (1922-1937) and Ireland (Eire) (1937-present) (i.e. Republic of Ireland 1949-present). Taoiseach would only be post 1937 in anycase, we can create additional categories for Irish Free State related articles if neccessary.

Djegan, I strongly believe that we need an overarching name for the Irish government since 1922. There are far more continuities between the Free State and what followed than differences. Ministers and ministries remained the same; the parliament retained the same name - Dáil Éireann -; county councils remained the same; all major educational, scientific, cultural etc., institutions remained the same. Again, take a look at what has been done for other countries - List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_France for example which lists the prime ministers of that country under monarchs, and five different constitutional republics. Or even Chancellor_of_Germany - listing the holders of that office under Imperial, Nazi and Federal Germany.--Damac 20:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Something I would recommend is that you review the respective French and German language articles and they are arranged in a fundementally different (and more faithful to the meaning of the titles as you might expect in their own respective languages). Incidentally we already have Irish heads of government since 1919 so their is already a lot of crossover, but we need to ensure we don't over simplfy. Djegan 20:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I checked out the de: Bundeskanzler and fr: President de la Republique categories, and I still agree with Damac. The conceptual gap between the 1922 C26 and the 1937 C26 is very small, and the danger of exaggerating it worries me more than the danger of ignoring it. Other countries have changed name, constitution and/or republican/monarchist form without any fundamental discontinuity in the conception of the state.

As regards the French article, the Presidents of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Republics are all in the same category. I think they could usefully have separate subcategories; that would then match the structure I support for C26.

The Germans have gone to the other extreme and separated pre-unification Chancellors 1947-90 from post-unification chancellors, I guess reflecting the view that it was a merger of states rather than an absorption of DDR by BRD. Perhaps if C6 and C26 ever unite, I might revise my point of view accordingly :) One can hardly blame them for separating out the Nazis; few Irish people feel that way about Cumann na nGaedhal. Joestynes 17:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I am certainly not argueing with the continuity of the state. Take the prime ministerial offices, as an example, and discribe how we could organise them (category, or article wise) and we can discuss it from their. (we could start a new section before we indent ourselves to oblivion!) Djegan 19:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Overarching name for C26

Currently we have

Category:Irish heads of government 
  Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland
    Terence O'Neill etc
  Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland
    David Trimble
  Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments
    Cathal Brugha etc
  Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State
    W.T. Cosgrave and Dev
  Category:Taoisigh of Ireland
    Bertie Ahern etc

I would rather see

Category:Irish heads of government 
  Category:Heads of government of Northern Ireland
    Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland
      Terence O'Neill etc
    Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland
      David Trimble
  Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments
    Cathal Brugha etc
  Category:Heads of government of C26
    Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State
      W.T. Cosgrave and Dev
    Category:Taoisigh of Ireland
      Bertie Ahern etc

2 questions:

1. would others agree with this recategorization
2. what name to use in place of C26? ("independent Ireland"; "the southern Irish state"; "the Irish state"; "Republic of Ireland"; "26-county Ireland"; "RepOblique of Ireland") Joestynes 17:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the second is a improvement - as for C26 "Republic of Ireland" would be best but I am not so sure that others would agree. Certainly I am against clearly made up names, that have no prior usage such as "independent Ireland"; "the southern Irish state"; "the Irish state"; "26-county Ireland"; "RepOblique of Ireland" and such. Djegan 22:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for this very clear and concise presentation. It really helps in visualising and understanding what you are trying to do.

I agree with most points but have some reservations. Firstly, I object to Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments. Cathal Brugha etc was not the head of a provisional government - he saw nothing provisional about it and neither does Irish consitutional history. The 1916 "government" was provisional according to its own definition; the First Dáil however did not see itself as provisional. I'm afraid I can't think of an alternative at this stage but it's something to keep in mind.

That's really a side issue; I only listed the category as it's currently listed; any problems with its name are unrelated to this C26 discussion. Joestynes 16:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How to call C26 is a difficult one. I'm of the opinion that as we use the constitutional name of the political entity that is the C6 and also one that is widely used, we should apply the same principles when referring to the political entity of the C26, that is referring to it by its constitutional name (i.e. Ireland) and its office holders as Taoisigh of Ireland etc. Irish Republic, Republic of Ireland are non-existant names; "the State" (Irish Times usage) is not helpful either; 26 Counties is Sinn Féin/RSF talk and "southern Irish" is the preserve of the rightwing of the British Tory party. Let's keep it simple. Ireland is how the country describes itself and it is how most of the world recognises it. --Damac 23:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Well so far that sounds like one vote each for Ireland and Republic of Ireland, which are my 2 least favourite options (apart from RepOblique which was my own little joke :). Personally, when all else fails, I approve of "made up" terms; provided it is clear that the term is a nonce description used as an internal convenience rather than purporting to have some official or established currency. Wikipedia already uses such nonce descriptions for disambiguation; it is clear for example that Prince (artist) is the name of the Wikipedia article but not the name of the person described in the article; his name is Prince but that name is unavailable for the article because it would be ambiguous. By the same token, we should find a Wikipedia-name which is obviously not a "name" used outside Wikipedia. How about Ireland (state)? Category:Heads of government of Ireland (state) is very awkward but the meaning seems clear (to me at least). Awkwardness seems a lesser sacrifice than inaccuracy or ambiguity. Joestynes 16:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

We need to be very conservative before we entertain any requests for a new name for the Republic of Ireland. Their are very few exceptions to not using the "of the Republic of Ireland", generally "of Ireland" should only be used when combiened with an official title of a organ of the state or something all Ireland. Republic of Ireland is simply, unambiguous and optimum in most cases. Djegan 20:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Names of areas

1. Prior to 1920, use only Ireland. C6 and C26 did not exist.
2. After 1920, use island of Ireland for C32 where there is possible confusion with C26.
   1. Where needed to emphasise C32, use all-island rather than all-Ireland as some Unionists dislike the latter.
      1. Use all-Ireland where official, as in All-Ireland Senior Football Championship, Primate of All Ireland.
3. Post-1920, use Northern Ireland for C6.
   1. Use Ulster where official in names, as in Royal Ulster Constabulary, Ulster Unionist Party. Do not describe Ulster as "incorrect" when referring to C6; avoid using it and alert readers to its contentiousness if it is necessary to use it, but it is POV to describe it as incorrect. (If "Ireland" can be 26 or 32 counties, "Ulster" can be 6 or 9 counties).
4. 1922-1937, use Irish Free State for C26
5. 1949-present, use Republic of Ireland for C26
   1. Use Ireland in official titles as President of Ireland.
   2. In alphabetically-ordered lists of countries, list under I for Ireland, not R for Republic.
   3. Use [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] when Ireland is needed for C26.
6. Do not use Irish Republic for C26. The article describes a historic term applicable to C32.
7. Do not use Éire for C26. It is not used within C26 except in Irish language.
8. Do not use Southern Ireland for C26 except in the specific historical sense described in the article.

I'm not sure about 1920-1922 or 1937-1949 for C26. Category:Prime Ministers of C26 would be a useful supercategory for Category:Taoisigh of Ireland and Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State, but no convenient name springs to mind. Ireland would probably not be misunderstood in most applicable contexts, but I'm loath to recommmend it after all the preceding cautions.

Nature of areas

1. When contrasting Republic of Ireland with United Kingdom, describe both as states. Avoid the word country.
2. When contrasting Republic of Ireland with Northern Ireland, describe both as jurisdictions. Avoid the word country.
3. When contrasting Northern Ireland with Great Britain or its subdivisions (England, Scotland, Wales), descibe Northern Ireland as a part (I believe this is the official description?).
4. Do not desribe Northern Ireland as a province (Unionist POV) or a statelet (Nationalist POV).
5. Avoid describing Northern Ireland as British if "UK" can be used instead.

Addition of (Irish name: "$NAME") to articles

Theres been some disagreement over this on Talk:Gerry Adams, with some entirely conflicting views to a similar discussion on the Irish noticeboard, and with one user effectively threatening to "start an official discussion on it", I'm doing it myself.

This is the English language Wikipedia, and the vast majority of Irish people, be they arguably or not arguably "Irish", are named in English. Yet there are large numbers of articles which feature a translation of their name in to Irish. This is an almost unique situation - in no other cases are names which are already in English converted to another language, only those which have been Anglified (e.g. from Irish itself, or, as is most common, from languages which do not utilise Latin characters - a notable Irishman himself, Chaim Herzog, serving as a good example here).

Modern names in Ireland generally do not have any genuine Irish version, everything is a back translation. These back-translations vary from region to region, and family to family depending from the same Irish surname - my own surname (Duffy) is one which varies heavily, as does O'Connell - examples of which are further up this page.

We already have a policy for people who were named in Irish or who almost always use an Irish form of their name. In these cases, their every day name is in Irish, so it should be listed as such and an English version or translation given where applicable - all well and good, all covered.

Yet we have many people whos name has never been in Irish. And there is a translation given which is completetly unverifiable - violating WP:V. Giving a translation in to one language that the name is not in and not others is a violation of the NPOV policy - WP:NPOV. And its a borderline violation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), as completely unnessacery non-English text is being used

In a case like, oh, I'll take Bertie Ahern as an example, our current Taoiseach is called Patrick Bartholemhew Ahern, commonly known as Bertie Ahern. Yet we have an entirely out-of-context "Pádraig Parthalán Ó hEachthairn" thrown in there for good measure. For the google search "Bartholomew in Irish", we get such possible versions of the name as "Bairtleméad", and very few google results for "Parthalán" return "Bartholomew" as an English language version, indeed it gets returned as having an English version of "Barclay" on some references. This shows how entirely unverifiable an Irish back-translation is.

Now, Mr. Ahern was born in an English speaking area of the country in the 1950's. He was almost certainly named entirely in English and hence no "Irish version" of his name exists. Generating one for him is a clear violation of the policies on No Original Research WP:NOR. Googling for the Irish version of his name provided does turn up some decent references, however most drop the Pádraig. The Wikipedia, in Irish, is the highest result. This is where I admit that Bertie was probably a bad example for NOR...

Anyway... what could be as simple as a few words in brackets can easily lead to the violation of a huge number of Wikipedia policies. Hence, I'm proposing that for where someone was named in English, ONLY the English-language form of their name is used, as Use English would suggest. Where an Irish version of their name is used by themselves in English consistantly or they were actually named in Irish, the current rules would still apply, of course.

Nationalistic issues must be set aside here - its irrelevant that "Irish is a national language". In the case of those people from Nothern Ireland, both Irish and Ulster Scots are recognised national languages; and for the UK, I don't see a Welsh version of "Anthony Charles Lyndon Blair" appearing Tony Blair appearing on his page, despite its national language status in the UK. There is no justifiable reason whatsoever to expend effort back-translating names which are not in Irish to Irish for the English language Wikipedia. If people wish to expend effort on translation to Irish, there is an Irish language Wikipedia which is growing in usage all the time and will no doubt be happy to take any contributions. --Kiand 22:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on the back translation, everyone who has recieved instruction in Irish will know that if their legal name is in English, then they will be provided with a litany of varations that they can used to generate an "Irish name", on the basic level those that start with "Ó", "Ni", "Mac", etc.

This need to provide an Irish name is somewhat of a fetish, their must be reasonable grounds to prove that the person actually uses the Irish name in English widely (it must meet the original research requirements and thus be citeable if not accepted); it is not simply enough to prove that it can be back translated with a junior cert level of Irish.

Thus taking an extreme case it would be entirely inappropriate to provide a back translation for "George W. Bush". Moreover Mary McAleese has recently been tagged for citation for the inclusion of the Irish name, incidentially not by Kiand.

A policy is needed to formalise this issue. Djegan 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The questions of "back translations" and "original research" are to some degree red herrings here. As far as variant forms go, there are plenty of examples of people who never used the English version of their name having various versions of their Irish name, Aodhagan O Rathaille being an example that springs to mind immediately. So what? The only controversy I have personally seen is over inclusion of Gerry Adams' Irish name. This is eminently verifiable as being used by the man himself. The same (verifiable, with a bit of effort) goes, AFAIK, for Parthalan O hEachthairn, which I am pretty sure I have seen on official documents. The only real question is whether verifiable Irish versions of names, used in Irish but not in English, should be mentioned on the pages dealing with the subject. I don't see why not, and I don't see why this is so much more controversial than giving the Irish names of towns, which are not generally used in English either. Incidentally, some politicians do have "official" Irish names: the Oireachtas translation department provides official Irish versions for holders of ministerial office who do not already have an Irish version they habitually use and who wish to have one for use on official documents in the Irish language. Indeed, it's quite possible that this is where our friend Parthalan comes from. Palmiro | Talk 15:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

So much for unverifiable: opening the Department of the Taoiseach homepage and clicking into the Irish-language version immediately reveals a greeting signed by the apparently unverifiable Parthalán Ó hEachthairn, T.D., Taoiseach.[2] It sounds like those who thought these things were unverifiable didn;t put too much effort into checking whether they were or not. Equally, whoever tagged Mary McAleese's article for a citation for her Irish name could have found it on the Aras an Uachtarain website with about as much effort as it took to put in the citation tag, if not less. Palmiro | Talk 15:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Citability is always an issue, once someone makes a request or their is a dispute. Citeability is the standard that wikipedia sets, it is not acceptable to prove simply that a name can be translated. Djegan 15:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That goes without saying. But do you object to including eminently verifiable/citable Irish names - such as those of Gerry Adams, Bertie Ahern and Mary McAleese? Palmiro | Talk 15:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well Gerry Adams cannot take the benifit of the Oireachtas translation department. Generally as a matter of course when the name is verifiable/citable its not a problem, however this leds us to the question; what is the good of including an Irish name when the person themselves speak little or poor Irish or don't use that name themselves? Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Djegan 16:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If the person doesn't use that name themselves, then probably it shouldn't be included except in exceptional circumstances (say if for some reason it was widely used by third parties). I'm not sure that I disagree with you here; my objection is to the removal of verifiable names that are or have been used. Palmiro | Talk 16:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The citability/original research may be dealt with for some persons, however its not always. Anyway, the other issue at stake here is that the name is still that - a translation. The fact that the person may be Irish doesn't affect it, and as I said above, nationalistic issues must be set aside. We are a unique case in here placing a translation to a second language of a name that is in English. A translation to another language falls foul of WP:UE as well as the random, pointless facts rule - its trivia, at best. There is an Irish-language Wikipedia where people can edit to their hearts content, same as there is a French language and a German language one. We have no French or German translations of English-language names on the Wikipedia. I object to including -any- translations of names to languages other than English on the Wikipedia. Their use in those languages is entirely irrelevant, this is not that languages Wikipedia. --Kiand 17:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you seem to be in a minority of one on this. Palmiro | Talk 17:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you learn to count. --Kiand 17:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I am a bit puzzled by that comment, which seems rather uncivil. On the "no Irish names, ever" side I count 1. Kiand, and nobody else. Or are you composed of several persons, some sort of Wikipedian Holy Trinity? Palmiro | Talk 17:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Theres also the "no Irish names where they just shouldn't be" side, on which theres more than one. --Kiand 17:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that would appear to be the side that myself and DJEgan are on, and I suspect Damac and Kwekubo as well. Palmiro | Talk 17:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Its not, because you're idea of where they "should be" is on articles where the person themselves doesn't use the name in English. Thats the crux of the issue here. Ahern dpesn't describe himself as Parthalán Ó hEachthairn in English, hence its irrelevant to an English language article. I've got here somewhere in a text file (much digging would ensue if I looked for it) a thing from when I did Japanese that was all major European leaders names translated in to Japanese and in katakana characters. Its just as valid a translation as the one to Irish, but its never used in English.

Other examples have been brought up of where people were actually named in Irish or actually use an Irish translation of their name in English. In this case, obviously, the Irish is relevant. But when someone is named in English, speaks English and uses only the English form of their name in English, an Irish translation doesn't belong. Its pointless cruft. Just as valid as that Japanese version... --Kiand 18:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, here we go, got if off the Japanese Wiki. Our Taoiseach is "バーティ・アハーン" in Japanese. Should we include that in the article too? Or that he's "ברטי_אהרן" in Hebrew? No, we shouldn't. And yet they're just as relevant as an Irish translation.

If you can give a good, justifiable reason why an Irish language translation is more relevant than any other, all well and good. But it being an "official language" isn't one. This isn't the Irish language Wikipedia. We also don't have Irish, Welsh or Ulster Scots versions of Tony Blair, nor has anyone suggested an Ulster Scots version of Gerry Adams - as its the other official language of Northern Ireland. Nor has anyone ever attempted to put even an Irish version on to Ian Paisley, who also comes from a country where Irish is an official language. --Kiand 18:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify and expand were I stand; when we are adding/retaining a disputed name we need more than a abstract web page somewhere to prove it. Moreover, the belief that we must provide a translation because someone is "nationalist" is bogus, should we provide Ulster Scots for "unionists" - no. If we give translations simply because of this criteria then this is slavish and fundementally insecure, we must show it has some degree of relevence to the article not simply a means of panning out the body of the article. Djegan 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, certainly I agree that the argument that the Belfast Agreement obliges us to give Gerry Adams' Irish name is singularly silly. But I don't see why an Irish name frequently used by someone in Irish is any less relevant to an article on that person than the Irish name of a town used to refer to that town in Irish. And as for official names, the websites of the Dept. of the Taoiseach and Aras an Uachtarain are not just "a abstract web page somewhere" regarding the names of the Taoiseach and President: they are authoritative sources. Palmiro | Talk 18:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

On the question of government websites occassionally the incur errors. The most notable I came across was the Attorney General of Ireland which removed the accent on "Ard" after I emailed them about it, documented on the corressponding talk page. Djegan 18:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

aside, to Djegan: They did it after you emailed them? Djegan, you rule!!! Bastique 12:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Placenames are legally bilingual, except for ones in Gaelthact areas - where WP:UE means we still use the English language version (if one exists) as primary. Peoples names are not legally bilingual. --Kiand 18:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My dhá phingin on this: I agree that Irish versions of personal names should not be used without good reason. I think RTÉ Nuacht always calls Bertie Bertie rather than Parthalán, though I have seen the Irish name on the bilingual plaque unveiled at the Cork main sewerage scheme (the glamour!). Charlie Haughey was Cathal ó hEochaidh on Nuacht however; his mother called him Cathal too; he was Minister for the Gaeltacht; I'm prepared to be inclusive in borderlinecases. But in general I imagine the only articles this is being added to are politicians: would anyone put Robáird ó Catháin on Robbie Keane's page? That is a sign that something unobjective is at work.

As regards placenames, the Irish version should always be given for counties, provinces and natural features, and in the Republic of Ireland for urban areas. Not sure about new towns in NI where any neolgistic Irish parity-of-esteem name may never be used. Not sure about smallscale human features like parks, streets, buildings, stadiums, etc. jnestorius^(talk) 21:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland / Ireland in location introductions

I suggest that the political location be described in the form Townname is a town/village in County Countyname, Republic of Ireland, and is located in the geographicregion of Ireland.

So for example; Cratloe is a village in County Clare, Republic of Ireland, located in the midwest of Ireland.

What do people think? I think it's appropriate to link to both ROI and Ireland, as the places are located in both.

zoney ♣ talk 13:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

After editing the Cratloe article to include a link to Republic of Ireland, it reads as follows:

Cratloe (Irish: An Chreatalach) is a small village (its population in 2002 was 656) in County Clare, Republic of Ireland, situated between Limerick City and Ennis in the midwest of Ireland.\

I think this is an informative, easy to read and comprehensive first sentence.

zoney ♣ talk 14:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment is it possible to have a hard and fast definition of geographicregion now? Perhaps Regions of the Republic of Ireland? Djegan 20:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • How would this impact on a place in the Greater Dublin Area - I can see anon editors throwing a hissy-fit if they see their town/village (and by definition county) is included in some definition of Dublin (re: County Kildare). Djegan 21:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Nevertheless, I'd say just leave it to be agreed on particular articles. Imposing the strict regions you've linked to is too restrictive. Often a description of the location may not include any of those regions. (e.g. a town in the Golden Vale, or north/south/east/west coast). zoney ♣ talk 09:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• I really don't like this proposal. County, Republic of Ireland (or Northern Ireland) is sufficient. The island is not that big, regional identity is not as strong as in say England, and if place articles have a locator map it's obvious whether it's north, south, east or west. I think

Cratloe (Irish: An Chreatalach) is a village (2002 population: 656) in County Clare, Republic of Ireland, between Limerick City and Ennis.

reads better. jnestorius^(talk) 20:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Regional identity as not as strong as say England? Where are you living? Dublin? The Midlands, Southwest, Midwest, West, Northwest, Southeast are all regions with strong identities. zoney ♣ talk 14:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • "Where are you living? Dublin?" LOL. On the contrary, Cork and Kerry people rarely make much common cause about "the Southwest", except if there's money available. The midlands is about the strongest regional identity (Laois-Offaly, Longford-Westmeath) but even that sometime includes Roscommon and/or north Tipp. I don't know whether locals anywhere will agree with outsiders about what region or regions, if any, they're in. Wexford is Southeast, Mayo is West, Donegal is Northwest, Clare is Midwest, Dublin is East; after that I'm not sure. jnestorius^(talk) 18:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful on this one. Regional identity in Ireland (i.e. other than counties) is not very strong. Their are no hard and fast definitions of regions. Djegan 18:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation of locations in Ireland

I propose that the following preferred style be added to this page:

Articles about a location in Ireland should be named, where possible, in the form Locationname (e.g. Tralee).

Where a location, such as a town, requires disambiguation, the format should be Townname, County Countyname. For example, Kill, County Kildare where Kill is not an appropriate location for the article.

Locations in County Dublin should use the format Locationname, Dublin. For example, Swords, Dublin where Swords is not appropriate. This avoids the need to distinguish between city and county, or more particularly, Dublin's four county-level authorities.

Where a town and county have the same name, the county article should be named as County Countyname, and the town should be located at County/townname (if no further disambiguation is needed). For example, Sligo and County Sligo.

Thoughts? The existing articles on towns in Ireland near-universally follow the above format.

zoney ♣ talk 13:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support (with reservation) in particular with respect to Dublin - but agree that four local authorities could make system overly complex - would that be appropriate or otherwise though? How should this excpetion relate to other cities (if at all)? Certainly it formalises the format for locations outside major urban centers - which is to be welcomed. Djegan 21:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• • One could probably add that locations in other cities should use placename, cityname. The problem is, do we refer to the general city area, or the sometimes absurd city boundaries (e.g. in Limerick, Castletroy, etc. technically aren't in the city. Fortunately that example didn't need dab). zoney ♣ talk 09:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Irish names in content

I suggest amending this section as follows:

Once the article name is established, any alternate name for the locale should be provided on the first line of the article (whether or not the name is widely used), as well as the proper location in the information box. The first sentence of the article should use the form "Townname (Irish: Ainmbhaile)" as follows:

'''Townname''' ([[Irish language|Irish]]: ''Ainmbhaile'')

The remainder of the article should use only the place name as titled in the article

and continuing from there. This is just to ensure consistent formatting; that "Irish" is linked and disambiguated to Irish language, with the actual Irish placename being italicised.

zoney ♣ talk 14:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support Djegan 20:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment needs fine-tuning for cases like Charleville, where Rath Luirc is rightly bolded, and An Rath probably should be too. jnestorius^(talk) 18:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support generally this should be the policy except for some exceptions, some of which jnestorius mentions. ww2censor 15:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Space after Mc/Mac?

I've noticed a small ambiguity in the current wording of the guidelines on naming people and this has to do with the question when a space should be included after Mac in surnames. Paragraph one states:

1 If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not "Martin Kyne"; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not "Thomas Fee", etc.

Taking this then, we should refer to Tomás Mac Giolla using the Irish version of his name. However, paragraph 3 specifies:

3 In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stíofáin etc. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.

I think some clarification is necessary in both paragraph three, and I propose that they be re-worded thus (changes in bold):

1 If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not "Martin Kyne"; Tomás Mac Giolla, not "Tom Gill" or "Tomas MacGiolla", etc.

3 In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stíofáin etc. In Wikipedia, therefore, a space should be included after Mac if the surname is in the Irish language. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.

What do people think?--Damac 15:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't personally think that the original versions of Paragraphs 1 and 3 are ambiguous. But, of course, if others do, there should be a revision.--Cat Constantine 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Neither do I; I wrote them. However, we've had a number of re-namings recently, some by senior contributors, so the paragraphs need to be made more precise to prevent this happening.--Damac 05:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Politically neutral references to Ireland (the island)

Is there any convention on the appropriate reference to Ireland where what is being described is a genuinely island-wide phenomenon, or where the phenomoneon exists more to the North of the island (such as a geographical phenomoneon to do with the weather, social habits, etc.) where the border does not have any practical apparent significance? The problem arises because one cannot use Northern Ireland synonymously with the North of the island and on the other hand you don't want to give the impression you are deliberately avoiding reference to Northern Ireland.

The problem arose on the Coleraine aritlce re. the town centre being referred to as a "Diamond", something, I am assured, whcih occurs also in the North of the Republic. Having raised the matter on two other talk pages the two users who responded both felt that it was just not worth the hassle of referring to the north of the island. Am I being naive in thinking there must be some way of referring to the north of the island that most reasonable people from different political perspectives would find acceptable?Lucifer 11:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Imperial vs. Metric: County Down

Currently metric units are been given second place over imperial in County Down, comments are welcome at talk:County Down. Their may be an implication for this manual of style. Djegan 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical references to City of Londonderry/Derry

Okay query, how should historical references be handled with reference to Derry/Londonderry. The city was called Londonderry between dates in historical periods before it's current renaming back to Derry, which is supported under this MOS. Now all present day references should be to Derry, no questions asked. I changed a couple of articles that pointed to Londonderry to point to Derry then though, hold on. Should the historical ones from when it was named Londonderry to when it was renamed back to Derry use Derry or Londonderry? It's not as clear cut as County Derry/Londonderry as there was never a County Derry, but I don't think this point has been discussed here before and a way forward on this one is needed, or is the IMOS as it currently stands sufficient for these usages? I don't care much either way, but a guidance one way or another would be useful. I personally (I know I said I don't care) weigh towards using Londonderry in it's correct historical periods prior to the council renaming, simply due to historical weight and official usage, but a guideline would be useful. Can we have a non-POV academic discussion on this and maybe a vote at the end? Ben W Bell talk 15:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I can see Londonderry being used as in to say, "They called the established city Londonderry", or reffering to Londonderry as the name for the city in the context such as that implies the name is an important part. I can't think off the top of my head any other instances when Londonderry would be more appropriate than Derry. In the same sense, we don't refer to North America as 'New America' in articles referring to the continent, even before it was named America unless it's appropriate. Pauric 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Peer articials on wiki would suggest a divide between londonderry city and derry city needs to be created on a par with Istanbul -Constantinople and Zaire -Democratic Republic of the Congo (Gnevin 16:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC))

I always call it "The City Whose Name Starts Fights", but this is probably inappropriate for wikipedia. Probably calling it "Derry" is most pragmatic, as Irish Nationalist trolls seems to outweigh leyalist pedants.--feline1 16:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Feline1 i remind you of WP:Civil (Gnevin 16:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC))