Talk:Azerbaijanis

Archives
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Women Section

Not that I disagree with any of the sentiment expressed, but the Women section is not NPOV in its language, UberIcarus

• I think that I've found an error in this section. It says "The Republic of Azerbaijan is also one of the few Muslim countries where abortion is available on demand.[92]"

But the reference is pointing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AbortionLawsAroundtheWorld.png ... an image; and I've searched, and the article that should point is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

If this is true, can someone change it. (Sorry about the english)

Encylopaedia of Islam...

Just a little correction, based on the ENGLISH version of this encyclopaedia, in the word ADHARBAYJAN, "DH" means "Z" (according to the pronunciation), since it has been translated from ARABIC to ENGLISH, so by reffering to the original Arabic versions of encyclopaedias - old and new - the word will be آذربايجان EN: Azær ba i jan.

• • Well I don't think that "Ayatollah Khamenei" is an ethnic azeri, he was born in the city of mashhad, north-eastern Iran, his mom was persian, his DAD was a half azeri living in "Najaf" IRAQ, so he doesn't know anything about azeri culture, I would say he is a persian since he speaks persian not turkish! he is just 25% azeri with no azeri education.

Actually his dad is Azarbaijani and has trouble speaking Persian. Ayatollah Khamenei is related to Shaykh Mahmud Khiyabani. As per his mom I am not sure but I am pretty sure she is an Azerbaijani as well. As for being born in Mash-had that is true, but many Azarbaijanis are born in Tehran as well. So just because they are born in a non-Azerbaijani speaking environment, it does not make them non-Azerbaijani. Also Khaemeni speaks Azerbaijani and Turkish well and whenever Erbakan or Aliyev have visited, he didn't need a translator. --Ali doostzadeh 01:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The spelling of the EI is correct. The Arabic "ذ" is pronounced like "dh", comparable to the English "th". Because Persians cannot prnounce these kinds of sounced, it turned "Azerbaijan". Later, the Turks simply copied from Persian. It should be noted that the name "Azerbaijan" is the ARABIC version of the original Median "Azerpadegan".

As for Khomeini, it is absolutely no secret that he and his family were from India. That's why he always signed his letters with "al-Hindi". The question remains whether his family had setteled in Iran much earlier, or that he himself was an Indian Muslim. Some language experts and reporters (I have no time to google their names right now) maintain that Khomeini was not able to speak correct Persian except for some 100 common words. That's why most of his speeches were written by others and he always refused to give spontanious interviews. Tājik 10:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake ... you're talking about Khamenei ... lol ...OK, he is deffinitly Azari. :) Tājik 10:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is the thing, we say that khomeini has an indian background, that doesn't mean that he is an indian which he wasn't. he was mostly iranian, and about khamenei, he has a turkish background from his father side, but he wasn't even born in azerbaijan, i mean he rathers to speak farsi, if he is a turk, so even if we say he is a turk, me as a turk don't know him as a turk coz he hates turks, if he was a real turk, he wouldn't at least forget his own language, so what was his real first language? No persian teaches his or her child turkish, but some turks do teach their kids persian, and the kids are not turks anymore, this is the problem, i mean we have nothing to do with farsi, we like it as it is, but it shouldn't be in a way so every single turk becomes a persian...in that case turks won't accept it as before, coz they know anyways they are turks, like a persian knows his/her background, and names, i would say let's not talk about "azerbaijan" since the islamic culture affected these lands alot, azerbaijan has been written in arabic that way cause that was the best way of writing with an advanced alphabet at that time, the same thing happened to other names, and for your info: azerbaijan is more turkish that any other name, they kept the name as they did their language, if you knew turkish you wouldn't make similarities between that and "padegan", and for more info: have a look at khazar, and ask turkmens what they still call azerbaijan! and you know medians were not persians right? pure aryans? No. .. azerbaijan and cacasia was full of people when aryans were not even close to persia, "persia" is only respectable for persians,but persians are respectable for us, persians belong to persian lands, turks to turkish lands, and so...being a persian or turk has nothing to do with cyrus or babak or khamenei or hitler or gandi, everyone watns to be something neither me or you can change it.

Please read carefully. Khaemeni speakes both Persian and Azeri-Turkish very well. He says in his biography that he learned as kid as it was a language used in his house. When Aliyev or Erbakan comes to Tehran, he doesn't need a translator. Also the name Azarbaijan is Iranian (it is not in any ancient Turkish source). --Ali doostzadeh 16:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I am curious to know, where did Khamnei said he knows Azeri-Turkish very well . On his own official site[1], there is no mention of Azeri what so ever. Can you please direct me to your source of claim. I can't find any information regarding his ability to talk Turkish with Erbakan either. I am an Azeri Turk myself and have grown up within kilometers of the Turkish border, have Turkish friends, yet not comfortable talking simple topics with a Turkish person , how can he talk state matters with head of another state only talking Azeri perhaps with his grandpa? Thanks. Mehrdad 19:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Azeris in Fars province?

I'm not sure whether it's accurate to state that Azeris live in Fars. I think those who live there are actually the Qashqai who aren't really Azeri. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Parishan (talk • contribs) 03:42, 21 August 2006.

"Azeri Genetic"

It's this a new Style of Rassismus ala Hitler or what ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.72.9.106 (talk • contribs) 13:48, 25 September 2006.

What's wrong with a little genetics? —Khoikhoi 01:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe they are scared of the results? And last I checked, Hitler and the Nazi's never used genetics. LOLKhosrow II 02:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Information about Pishevari

Please do not remove sourced material from the article, specially the material from Encyclopaedia of Islam.Heja Helweda 20:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The new encyclopedia of Islam does not consider TOP SECRET declassified information that were recently published by the former USSR within the last 5-10. This changes a lot of the equation and views on Ferqeh. Note the classified documents were memos from Stalin to Baqeroff himself. So unless you have new sources that take this major historic viewpoint shift into account, then it is considered obsolete with that regard. Plus this is not an article on Ferqeh to write 20 lines on it. --alidoostzadeh 21:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Islam is a very old resource and many articles have not been updated in years. It is not the best resource for these kinds of topics. Khorshid 06:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To give example, Encyclopedia of Islam does not even call Iran Iran but Persia and Iranian citizens as Persians despite if even they are not ethnically Persian! LOL Khorshid 06:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia of Islam is an authoritative source written by experts. If anyone wants to disprove the EI, he/she has to come up with REALLY good literature. Tājik 10:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

True it is good on historical aspects. But information on modern politics can change. The new released top secret materials that are memo's from Stalin to Baqirov is a case point. --alidoostzadeh 14:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The removed sentences were about linguistic and cultural grievances of Azerbaijanis at that time, this does not need top secret documents :) Heja Helweda 00:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is not about Ferqeh. And I disagree that there was wide linguistic grievances as the government of Pishevari would not have fallen in oneday if it was popular. Also any analysis of the movement should take the above unclassified secret materials into account since they effect all aspects of the image of Ferqeh. --alidoostzadeh 02:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

We cannot rely on our individual beliefs, it is safer to refer to some academic sources. If you can provide any scholarly source regarding your beliefs, it would greatly enhance the article.Heja Helweda 05:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with alidoostzadeh, your additions are highly speculative and POV. On top of that, your selective "academic sources" are not verifiable as the links you've provided require registration. --Mardavich 06:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Iran: A country Study by the Federal Research Division, Kessinger Publishing[2] , Without Soviet Backing, the Pishevari government collapsed and Pishevari himself fled to the Soviet Unition. I can show great many instances where the Pishevari government was despised and that is why it collapsed without any resistance unlike the Kurdish democratic party which had some grass root support amongst Sunni Kurds. Also the Encyclopedia of Islam article is old whereas my unclassified top secret sources are new and show there was no internal movement that led to such a party but it was the sole external creation of Stalin. It was previously unknown to some (not all) scholars why the Pishevari government all of the sudden rose up after the USSR invasion of NW Iran, but with the new unclassified information, everything is made clear and the new analysis on the movement should mention these three important sources something the OLD encyclopedia of Islam article does not and tries to find reasons. There is nothing POV about the unclassified top seceret documents showing that the creation of the party was directly by the order of Stalin and thus it was no internal movement within Iran and it collapsed the first day the USSR left within 24 hours. --alidoostzadeh 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the reasons for irredentist movement in Iranian Azerbaijan was Persianization campaign, which was pursued by Reza shah. This information is verifiable from scholarly literature.

The steps that the Teheran regime took in the 1930s with the aim of Persianization of the Azeris and other minorities appeared to take a leaf from the writings of the reformist-minded intellectuals in the previous decade. In the quest of imposing national homogeneity on the country where half of the population consisted of ethnic minorities, the Pahlavi regime issued in quick succession bans on the use of Azeri on the premises of schools, in theatrical performances, religious ceremonies, and, finally, in the publication of books. Azeri was reduced to the status of a language that only could be spoken and hardly ever written. As the Persianization campaign gained momentum, it drew inspiration from the revivalist spirit of Zoroastrian national glories. There followed even more invasive official practices, such as changing Turkic-sounding geographic names and interference with giving children names other than Persian ones.

Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russia and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition. ISBN: 0231070683

Grandmaster 06:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There was no irredentist movement, except what the USSR created by the direct orders of Stalin as the unclassified top-secret information clearly establishes. It is true that Persian was declared the only official language since 1906 (before Pahlavi and during the constitutionalist movement) and the Pahlavi's only thought Persian the official language in school except for few cases. And there was a Zoroastrianist campaign which was more at an attempt for de-Islamification of Iranian society much like Ataturk's de-Islamification campaign. But as for choosing the name part, I disagree since majority of Iranians have Arabic names, and Turkish names like Yashar, Aidin, Sanaaz are as popular as any other name during the Pahlavid era. A good example is Shohreh Aghdashloo who is the wife of Aydin Aghdashloo. Of course there was more serious Azerification campaign of Kurds, Talysh and Lezgins and etc or even more serious one in Turkey and Ba'athist Iraq. I am not sure how much of all these informations are relavent to Pishevari. But the current discussion is about Pishevari's movement and there should be a separate article on Ferqeh and Pishevari. According to Iran: A country Study by the Federal Research Division, Kessinger Publishing[3] , Without Soviet Backing, the Pishevari government collapsed and Pishevari himself fled to the Soviet Unition. Not much of a popular movement, if it collapsed less than a day without USSR backing. It actually collapsed in about a day because people of Tabriz actually revolted against it and there is a lot of memoirs about this as well another source I brought from Professor. Hess. I am not sure putting up two three pages about Pishevari movement is a good idea on this article and it should have it's own relavent article. It was previously unknown to some scholars why the Pishevari government out of the sudden rose up after the USSR invasion of NW Iran, but with the new unclassified information, everything is made clear and new analsysis should mention these three important sources and I am of the opinion that any old analysis is obsolete because of these three important sources which shows that the party was created by the direct order of Stalin. --alidoostzadeh 09:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani Diaspora Population

The numbers cited for Azerbaijani population in other countries are not accurate. It seems this numbers only include Northern Azerbaijani diaspora whilst the southern azerbaijanis of world are much more. For instance a population of just 1400 Canadian-azerbaijanis is a sheer underestimation. Statistics Canada has only classified northern Azerbaijanis (i.e. those who have stated Azerbaijan as their home country) as Azerbaijani whilst a sizeable portion (at lest 50 000) of Iranian-Canadians are also Azeri albeit from Iranian Azerbaijan or soythern Azerbaijan. There is also a considerable population of southern Azerbaijanis in USA, Australia, Uk, Germany, France, Turkey, UAE, Qatar, Kuweit, Japan, South Korea, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.198.8.137 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 October 2006.

First of all, do not get confused. People who speak the same dialect of a language are not necessarily the same people.Khosrow II 00:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Does that make Persians of Califonia a different ethnic group? Parishan 00:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats not what I mean.Khosrow II 00:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is about both northern and southern Azerbaijanis. Isn't it? So the numbers should include both of them.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.198.8.137 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 October 2006.

There are no "north" and "south" Azerbaijani's, there are only one Azerbaijani's, and those are Iranian Azerbaijani's. Read up on the history of the name Azerbaijan, the meaning of Azerbaijani, and the genetics, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I dont have time to explain this in detail right now.Khosrow II 01:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey pal, I know what you mean and I disagree with you (as many do). But your pan-persian views bear no connection to this topic. Read the article anew. Here "Azerbaijani people" refers to both those who live north of Araz river and those who live south of it. So the diaspora population should be consistent.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.198.8.137 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 October 2006.

Obviously you dont know what Im talking about then.Khosrow II 02:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with 85.198.8.137 here. The name Azerbaijanis or Azeris generally refers to the Turkic-speaking population of Azerbaijan and northern Iran. And yes, Khosrow II, you are expressing a radical Pan-Persian viewpoint by trying to prove that Azeris on both sides of Araxes are different from each other ethnicity-wise (what else could those "only Iranian Azerbaijanis" and "not necessarily the same people" comments mean?). It's enough to read the first couple of lines of this article to realize, what is meant by Azerbaijanis. I understand where you're coming from, but there's no need in undermining the commonly accepted theory, especially if there are ideological reasons behind that. Parishan 02:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because you dont know the facts does not mean you can insult me or my intelligence. When I post the irrefutable facts, would you promise me that you will conform your point of view to the facts, instead of conforming the facts to match your point of view or simply refusing to believe them?Khosrow II 03:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. I was by no means questionning your intelligence but simply referring to the fact that 85.198.8.137 has a point when talking about including the numbers for Iranian Azerbaijanis outside of Iran to the overall number for Azerbaijanis who live abroad. The article does not talk about Iranian Azerbaijanis (who from what I've understood you claim to be "real" Azerbaijanis) but Azerbaijanis in general as the term is commonly understood by scholars. Parishan 03:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I see that you do not want to commit yourself to a situation where you could possibly have to accept something you dont want to accept. Will you promise me that when I post the facts you will accept them for what they are and change your point of view to match the facts, instead of changing the facts to match your point of view or rejecting them out right?Khosrow II 03:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people on both sides of Araks are the same people, and it’s not a subject for dispute. All the major scholarly sources say so, and according with the rules we go with the established scholarly view, and not the original research. Check Britannica, for example:

Azerbaijani - any member of a Turkic people living chiefly in the Republic of Azerbaijan and in the region of Azerbaijan in northwestern Iran. At the turn of the 21st century there were some 7,500,000 Azerbaijani in the republic and neighbouring areas and more than 15,000,000 in Iran. [4] Grandmaster 04:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

GM, you know the truth very well. Even you yourself brought some information to my knowledge that I did not even know before. Its amazing that you still deny the truth when you took part in such a revealing discussion.Khosrow II 05:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The truth is that Azerbaijani people are the same both in Iran and Azerbaijan, who got separated from each other due to historical reasons. This is confirmed by the major scholarly sources and according to the rules you should keep your personal beliefs out of Wikipedia. Grandmaster 05:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I dont have time right now, but when I do, we will all be able to see the information and judge for ourselves (you have already seen the information, and at one point you even told that you already knew about it all...I dont know why you reject all the information we talked about). Even Tadeusz Swietochowski, a person whose quotes you seem to use a lot, contradicts your claims. Even he acknowledges the truth about the situation. Even the Russian Encyclopaedia, which again you seem to like very much, contradicts your claims. Good night for now, and I plead with you to accept facts for what they are. A person has to change his or her point of view to match the facts, not change the facts to suite their point of view or just reject facts period. Thats the scientific way to approach the world and you seem like a very educated and logical person, I just dont know why you find it so hard. Anyway, good night, I'll talk to you tomorrow.Khosrow II 05:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

History is not really verifiable. I disagree with your historical claims but even if you can prove your claims, it's not relavant. Stick to actual realities instead of historical myths. The truth is that we are the same people. We have the same language, the same proverbs, same traditions, music, lifestile, etc. After 2 centuries of political separation we look astonishingly alike. 72.232.27.154 17:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Shahin

Im sorry, I didnt know you made a comment, I just thought you put the /'s in other peoples comments for no reason. Sorry about that. Also, you just contradicted yourself in your statement.Khosrow II 04:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Neither Swietochowski, nor Russian encyclopedia say that Azeris on both sides of Araks are not the same people. On the contrary, they both say that they ARE the same people. So you please keep your personal opinion out of the article, especially considering that this is a featured article. Grandmaster 04:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Swietochowski clearly distinguishes Arran as a seperate entity from Azerbaijan (Iran). You know this, and I know this. The Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary clearly says that the term Azerbaijani was adopted, not as an ethnic term, but as a linguistic term, and that Iranian Azari's are Iranians by race (this was the quote you came up with yourself, dont deny it). It was the Russians who came up with the term Azerbaijani first, from the name of North Western Iran, since that was the only region ever called Azerbaijan until 1918. They clearly say that the reason they use the term Azerbaijani to refer to this group of Turkic speakers is to differentiate them from the rest, because Azerbaijani's (linguistic term, not ethnic term) were Iranians by race. Language does not determine language group, or else Africans from the Ivory Coast would be ethnic Frenchmen and women. I can go on and on, but since all three of you have made it clear that you have no respect for facts, what is there to discuss? I have all the facts I need to counter your claims.Khosrow II 04:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You have no facts. The only fact you try to use as a proof is that the North was not always called Azerbaijan. But if we assume that the two areas had different names, it still does not prove that the people are different. You know how many Arabic countries there are in the world, each with its own name, but the people are all Arabs nonetheless. And Brochaus says that Azerbaijani people are Iranian by race referring to people on both sides of Araks. But ethnicity is not based on race anyway. Plus, as I said many times, all the scholarly sources say that Azerbaijani people on both sides of Araks are the same ethnicity. I don’t think this issue is worth any further discussion. Grandmaster 05:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I would like to remind you that the region north of Azerbaijan (the real Azerbaijan, Iranian Azerbaijan) was never called Azerbaijan, and definetly not in its entirety.

Also, your comparison to Arab countries is not correct. Everyone knows that the people of these different Arab nations are not ethnic Arabs, but linguistically Arab. There is now a resurgent feeling, especially in Lebanon, of the people's pre Arabization past, and ofcourse, the Egyptians know where they came from also. They are all linguistically Arab, nothing more, nothing less. Like I said, ethnicity is not determined by language. Good examples of this is the people of the Ivory Coast, who speak French, but are not ethnic Frenchmen. The Russian Encyclopaedia clearly states that the term Azerbaijani was adopted to refer to the people of North Western Iran only because they had no relations with other Turks except linguistically, and were Iranian by race. The Encyclopaedia clearly states this, the Encyclopaedia clearly states this, the Encyclopaedia clearly states (you yourself found and posted this quote from the Encyclopaedia, thinking that you could use it for your own purposes, but obviously, this was a major blunder on your part.).

Lastly, before I go to sleep, I would like to tell you again, that scholarly sources change, and they have especially changed during hte 20th century with the advent of nationalism and pan Turkism. For example, the 1911 edition of Brittanica clearly states the the only Azerbaijan is the region in the North West of Iran. Now what happened between 1911 and now that Brittanica has changed so drastically? New evidence? No, the only thing that has happened is politics, simple as that. Today, instead of facts deciding things, we have politics deciding them, just as we are seeing here on this Wiki discussion page. You will not be able to find one map, one single map, made before the 20th century that has the region north of Iranian Azerbaijan labled as Azerbaijan. I am the one with all the facts here, I can give you historical accounts, I can show you maps, etc... What have you shown me? Nothing. I garuntee you that if I e-mail the editors at Brittanica and show them all of this evidence compiled on Wikipedia, they themselves would be ashamed of the "academic" job they have done. Remeber that it was not so long ago that one of the Iranian Wikipedians had to e-mail Ethnologue to tell them their numbers were wrong. Do you remember what Ethnologue replied to him? They said that they themselves had no sources for the numbers they had put up, and they very well could have been wrong.Khosrow II 05:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)