Talk:Chinese numerals

French 94

French 94? What about Welsh 99? That's pedwar ar bymtheg ar pedwar ugain, or "four on fifteen on four twenties". (I suspect that the French habit of counting by twenties came from the Gauls.) --Anon1

Hangzhou

Though the name HangZhou numerals implies they originate from HangZhou, China, these numerals are not used in HangZhou anymore. I asked a 30 year old lady who grew up in HangZhou, she had not seen these numerals in her life. Her mother recognizes what they are. However, she had not seen them in use during her 40 years in Hangzhou. She remembered seeing these numerals in Malaysia over 50 years ago.

Several of my friends from Taiwan, who are in the 40s, had not seen these numerals ever.

On the other hand, the Chinese herbal doctor I used in San Jose, CA wrote me a herbal prescription using these Hangzhou numerals. It is evident that these numerals are still in use in some Cantonese communities in the US. But with just a small sample, it is hard to determine how extinct it has become.

Kowloonese 11:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Unicode standard corrected the name to SuZhou numerals since the above question was posted. That explains a lot. Kowloonese 03:23, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Zhao

got a problem. In my dictionary, it says "Zhao4" is

1 million
1 trillion (ancient use)

maybe someone should make a note there. --FallingInLoveWithPitoc 06:36, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)

According to Unicode standard zhao means trillion in Japan and Taiwan, it means a million in China. It also means trillion in Hong Kong. --Anon2

After some research, I have found this to be the current situation: all Chinese communities defines zhao4 兆 as 10^12 when it is used in writing numbers. In Mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau, it means 10^6 when used as an SI prefix, e.g. zhao4he 兆赫 = megahertz. That convention came from the fact that in ancient China there were three systems to define number words larger than 10^4: yi4 億, zhao4 兆, jing1 京, gai1 垓, zi3 秭...

10^5 10^6 10^7 10^8 10^9 ...
10^8 10^12 10^16 10^20 10^24 ...
10^8 10^16 10^32 10^64 10^128 ...

The second system became the standard. The first system survived in the translation for mega because Chinese otherwise lack a monosyllabic word for one million.

In Taiwan, however, zhao4 still means 10^12 when used as an SI prefix. So zhao4he 兆赫 = terahertz. The megahertz is called bai3wan4he4 百萬赫.

That should explain all the confusions. Dictionaries and Unicode standard may show inconsistencies because they may not be looking at the whole picture when they seek definitions of individual characters. I have already made major changes to the main text to resolve the values of all numerals > 10^4. I will continue to make some more minor changes to make it clearer.

Felix Wan 2004-07-08 02:30 (UTC)

About those big numbers, I found something a little bit different. The second one among those three ancient systems should be close, but different from, the modern way.

《數術記遺》(東漢徐岳) ：「黃帝為法，數有十等，及其用也，乃有三焉，十等者，億、兆、京、垓、秭、穰、溝、澗、正、載。三等者，謂上中下也。其下數者，十十變之，若言十萬為億，十億為兆，十兆為京。中數者、萬萬變之，若言萬萬為億、萬萬億為兆、萬萬兆為京。上數者數窮則變，若言萬萬曰億，億億曰兆，兆兆曰京也。下數淺短，計事則不盡，上數宏廓，世不可用，故其傳業惟以中數耳。」 [1][2]

So technically, it goes up like 10^8, 10^16, 10^24, 10^32, 10^40, 10^48 etc. --Liuyao 01:52, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You are right. Recently, I have also noticed that there exist two conflicting sources, one saying that "萬萬為億、萬萬億為兆、萬萬兆為京", the other saying that "萬萬為億、萬億為兆、萬兆為京", which is the modern way. I am going to include the other ancient way in the main text. By the way, welcome to Wikipedia. You may be interested in the Wikipedia:China-related topics notice board. -- Felix Wan 10:08, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

Hao/li

Aren't hao2 and li2 reverse? --Anon3

I suggest someone with good Chinese language backgroud to research deeply into this topic. When China turned to the SI metric system, such as milligram, centimeter, millimeter etc., they use hao and li as a qualifying adjective in front of the unit. For example, centimeter is called li mi and millimeter is called hao mi etc. However, I really doubt if those who picked these translations really researched into the original usage of hao and li in Chinese measuring units. If I remembered correctly from the books I studied a few decades ago. Hao and li are unit for weight, not quantifiers. When used as weighing unit, li was 10x hao. However, when used in a SI quantifier, hao is 10x li. Hence, I speculate those who made up the translations did it arbituarily with no knowledge of the traditional usage of these two characters. Of course, all language evolves based on contempory usage, so even a misusge will turn into standard.

If you look up an old Chinese dictionary, you may find hao & li very interesting because they have different value depending on context. Li = One thousandth of a Chinese 尺 foot. Li = One hundredth of a 畝 [mu3]. Li = One thousandth of a 兩 [liang3] or tael. Li = (Rate of interest) one tenth of one percent (i.e. one thousandth of a unit). Hao = a centigram in weight or one-hundredth of a centimeter in length.

You will see a consistency if you look closer. The reason that li2 = 1/1000 of 尺 foot was because there is a unit name for 1/10 foot: cun4 寸. fen1 = 1/10 cun4, li2 = 1/100 cun4, hao2 = 1/1000 cun4,... Similarly, qian2 錢 = 1/10 liang3, fen1 = 1/10 qian2, li2 = 1/100 qian2, hao2 = 1/1000 qian2,... For small units of measure beyond the named units, the order is always fen1, li2, hao2, si1, hu1, wei1 for 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/100000, 1/1000000.

Felix Wan 2004-06-26 02:32 (UTC)

For measurement of land area, mu3 畝 is already the smallest named unit, so fen1 = 1/10 mu3, li2 = 1/100 mu3, hao2 = 1/1000 mu3,...

For a centigram and 1/100 of a centimeter, actually the old translation was gong1hao2 公毫. When SI was first introduced to China, the people translated them by adding the prefix gong1, meaning public, to the traditional units. So, kilogram = gong1jin1, hectogram = gong1liang3, decagram = gong1qian2, gram = gong1fen1, decigram = gong1li2, centigram = gong1hao2. Similarly, meter = gong1chi3, decimeter = gong1cun4, centimeter = gong1fen1, millimeter = gong1li2, and 1/100 of a centimeter is naturally gonghao2.

For interest rates, there is some complication. If we are talking about annual rates, 1 fen1 = 10% of the principal, 1 li2 = 1%, 1 hao2 = 0.1%, although in modern Chinese, we usually use li2 exclusively. For monthly rates, 1 fen1 = 1% per month, i.e. 12% per year for simple interest. 1 li2 = 0.1%. For daily rates, 1 fen1 = 0.1% per day, i.e. about 3.65% per year for simple interest. 1 li2 = 0.01%.

In conclusion, although li2 and hao2 have many meanings depending on the situation, the order is consistent within each single system: fen1 = 10 li2, li2 = 10 hao2.

Felix Wan 2004-07-08 03:12 (UTC)

Another example is zhao discussed in the section above. PRC defined zhao differently from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong. I am wondering if this kind of screw-ups happened during the Cultural Revolution which was an era when knowledgable scholars went to jail and uneducated ideots took over adminstrations and standards committees.

See my explanation under zhao4. (I have moved my old answer, dated 2004-06-26, to where it should belong, and made some changes.)

Felix Wan 2004-07-08 02:30 (UTC)

Did you know that "an apron" used to be "a napron"? Of course current usage wins. But it would be an interesting fact to mention in dictionary or encycopedia to help future scholar to understand the switch over and why.

Kowloonese 05:33, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Numeral 9

I reverted a change regarding the Su Zhou numeral 9.

Many web browsers are displaying the wrong glyph for this character, hence what you are looking at on this page may be wrong, don't trust the display.

9 is a dot on top of a variant of the 〤 (4) symbol
(〩 U+3029) is a character with two brush strokes which writes in the stroke order similar to "jiu3 (久 U+4E45)" by combining the first two strokes.
夂 & 夊 are characters with 3 brush strokes.
攵 & 文 each has 4 brush strokes

The bottom line is that all the above are not the same though they all look similar. When the browsers show the wrong glyph, it just make these characters more confusing.

Kowloonese 03:21, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

114?

Latest comment: 21 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

From the article (emphasis mine):

However, when more than two digits are involved, the abbreviation usually does not take place except in Japanese. For example, 114 is read as '1' '100' '1' '10' '4', and definitely not '100' '10' '4'. Although '1' '100' '10' '4' is marginally acceptable, it is not common.

I wonder what language you are refering to? 114 in Mandarin Chinese is universally spoken as yi1 bai3 shi2 si4. As a speaker of Chinese, I find the allegation that it should be read as yi1 bai3 yi1 shi2 si4 quite strange, as I have never heard yi1 shi2, ever. This is because shi2 is grammatically not considered a measure word, where as higher units are. Therefore you always say yi1 bai3, but never just bai3. The exception to this is the use of er2 rather than liang3 with bai3 and higher, reflecting their shared status as numerals. liang3 bai3 is said, but it's sort of slang. One would never write it. But shi2 is different; it is never preceded by yi1.

It is not true to say shi2 is not a measure word, shi2 and bai3 are used the same way grammetically. e.g. yi1 shi2, er2 shi2 or shi2, er2 shi2 are acceptable. Kowloonese 19:14, 20 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

Someone ought to change this information, because it's wrong. --Anon

Your dialect of Mandarin is not universal. I didn't write your quoted statement, but it is true that Taiwanese Mandarin certainly says yibai-yi-shisi for 114, in fact, I never heard of yibai-shisi. Maybe it's a Mainlander feature or whereever you're raised. Either way, that paragraph should be modified. It is confusing. --Menchi 11:36, 20 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

We say "yi1bai3-yi1shi2si4" not "yi1bai3-shi2si4". the latter one sounds weird. And in Cantonese, when saying 1XX, it's acceptable to omit the yi1, especial when it comes to 1X0 (except the case of 100). --θαλαμηγός (talk) 18:30, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Isn't it what the article say? yi1bai3-shi2si4 is marginally acceptable, but not common. Though the mainlander said the opposite. Cantonese and Taiwanese Mandarin preserved many traditional usage of the ancient Chinese language while the Mainlander has introduced many variations probably as side effects of the simplication done decades ago. Every language evolves over time. This is just one example that it went to two extremes. The mainlander never heard of yi1bai3-yi1shi2si4 while Cantonese and Taiwanese never heard of yi1bai3-shi2si4. I am no authority in this kind of stuff. Change the sentence as you see fit. But be neutral to present both extremes. Kowloonese 19:27, 20 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm the anon poster, sorry about the confusion. It's true that I speak mainland Chinese and am not very familiar with Taiwanese differences. I also do not speak Cantonese or Minnanhua so I can't exactly comment on those. However, in the Beijing dialect, we omit the yi1 in front of shi2. While it certainly true that many non-Mandarin dialects are more conservative (closer to classical Chinese), Mandarin is the language of Beijing. Consider that in largely Cantonese speaking areas, spoken Mandarin is probably more likely to use some Cantonese grammatical features; similarly for places where Minnanhua is common (Taiwan). I currently live in Shanghai and the locals here certainly allow their Shanghainese habits to influence their spoken Mandarin.

The fact that Beijing dialect is "standard" Mandarin doesn't change the fact that many people do not speak it that way. And actually, even Beijing Mandarin isn't really standard, I guess. Hebei Mandarin would probably be closer. But my point is that I'm not trying to argue that I'm right simply because I speak a Beijing dialect. Especially since this article is about Chinese numerals, and so any Chinese dialect's habits are equally valid. I think that in this light, we should mention both usages. It would also be good if we could get some sort of authoritative answer on the usage in Taiwan, and find out whether the use of yi1 shi2 is current because that's how it's said in Taiwanese, or whether some antiquated form of Mandarin used it too. Very interesting. Actually I have some Taiwanese coworkers, maybe I'll ask them too. I know that there are a lot of differences between Mainland mandarin and Taiwanese mandarin that have been officialized; for example I hear Taiwanese pronounce 法 as fa4 a lot, which sounds strange to me (in Beijing and the surrounding countryside we say fa3). What's interesting about that is that I've been told Taiwanese dictionaries actually list fa4 as the pronunciation of this character, indicating that the government actually considers it to be the correct pronunciation. So in light of yi1 shi2, is it a similar situation?

Sorry to barge in here and claim it was wrong when really, I guess, Mandarin varies quite a bit! I'll pop by again tomorrow and see what you all think :)

The whole paragraph is about where the yi1 is commonly omitted and not. Yi1 shi2 is not common, but yi1 bai3 yi1 shi2 and shi2 is. The leading yi1 sometimes is omitted, however the second yi1 in yi1 bai2 yi1 shi2 is not leading. Kowloonese 08:03, 21 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

I realize this. However, the fact still remains that in the Mandarin spoken in Beijing and in the surrounding area, which is presumably "standard", one does not say yi1 bai3 yi1 shi2 si4. I believe (though I am not sure) that the use of yi1 bai3 yi1 shi2 si4 in Hong Kong & Taiwan is most likely due to the influence of the Cantonese and Taiwanese dialects. But I do not know this for sure. The fact remains that the yi1 is ommitted in Beijing, on which both the official mandarin in Taiwan and the official mandarin on the mainland are based. While I am certainly willing to believe that the Taiwanese usage differs, I do not think you can make a reasonable case for the Taiwanese usage being the "correct" one, if only because the vast majority of Mandarin speakers are on the Mainland, versus Taiwan's relatively small population.

Anyway, mark what you want, but remember that China's 1.3 billion Mandarin speakers are likely to disagree with you on this point.

You may be able to make a reasonable argument that the usage you describe was current in Ancient Chinese, as evidenced by the relatively conservative nature of Cantonese and Taiwanese.

Oh, My! you Beijingese would say "yi1bai3-shi2si4"?? surprised to know that! i never say in that way when i am speaking in Mandarin. i always say "yi1bai3-yi1shi2si4" in Mandarin. "yi1" is always not omitted when in the middle of the number. :O --θαλαμηγός (talk) 18:00, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

Paper or Plastic? He got a point though. Mainlanders outnumber traditional Chinese and all language evolves according to popular usage. Since traditional Chinese is a minority and its written and usage will be forgotten over time. Blame it on Mao. Kowloonese 22:27, 27 May 2004 (UTC)Reply

I'm totally confused. I consider myself as a native Beijing dialect speaker, and yibai<YI>shisi is definitely what we say in Beijing at least. I'm pretty sure that it is officialized in math textbook for elementary school that I used (in 1990s). To emphasize my point, we say yibai-YI-shisi, for sure, 100%. -Liuyao

The traditional Chinese was not confused. Both the wikipedians from Taiwan and Hong Kong claimed that we do "yi bai yi shi si" in Traditional Chinese. Now two mainlanders disagreed on how mainlanders do it. Since social values and even culture in the mainland has changed so much away from original Chinese traditions due to the Cultural Revolution and communism, the traditional ways are not the Chinese ways anymore because the tradition keepers are now the minority. It would be interesting to start an article list the Chinese traditions that are only maintained by non-mainlanders. Kowloonese 08:07, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the original Anon poster that caused the confusion. I know this is quite late, but I'd like to retract what I said regarding the pronunciation of 114. Although I currently live in the PRC, I spent a great portion of my youth abroad, and I apparently inherited a somewhat grammatically incorrect speech style in this respect. Sorry about the confusion. *loses face*

That having been said, of course, omitting the yi1 in front of the shi2 is unfortunately quite common, which is one of the reasons that I was able to keep on saying in without anyone noticing. In particular, my Shanghainese coworkers (whose Mandarin I would not describe as standard by a long shot) seem to ommit the yi1 as well. At the time I confered with one of them (a graduate of Beijing People's University, no less) and she didn't seem to think that yishi was standard. But then she majored in History....

Anyway, sorry again. It was immature of me to be so insistant. We bilinguals are wacky -- we can't speak any language properly :)