Talk:Meänkieli
I started to revise this article on my laptop, but am now busy with studies and preparations for an exam, why I think I better post my version here - unfinished and unpolished as it may seem. /Tuomas 13:15, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Whether Meänkieli is in fact a language could be questioned. It is much closer to standard Finnish than are some Finnish dialects, such as those of Rauma, Savo or Karjala. 26.09.04
The word 'language' seems redundant. 'Kieli' means the exact same thing. -- Kizor
Maybe it's a dialect that just happens to have a name like that. No matter what dialect you speak anyway, it's still part of a language. Seems pretty natural for a group of people to say "our language". They wouldn't necessarily know there is a bunch of politics involved in saying so. Besides, I cant see them saying meänmurreh 'our dialect'. Doesnt have the same ring to it. --Alcarilinque 22:49, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Renaming (Meänkieli -> Meæn language)
Meänkile is actually (Meæn) Meæn Kile, (English) Meæn language. I propose we rename the page to Meæn language if there isn't objections.
Reasons:
- replace ä with æ: ä is not used in English, but old English used æ.
- Meæn language are sometimes used
- Quens or Tornedalians rather write Meæn Kile and not Meænkile
- It should rather be Meæn-Kile language rather than Meænkile language
- There is somewhat mostly relation to this article and when I search for Meänkieli language on e.g. Google.
Meæn language is also (poetical) refered to as old-Finnish language in some literature. // Rogper 20:43, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- What?? That is just silly! A brief google search gives only links which use "meän language". Can you give some references where this form is used? Also, please sign your posts with ~~~~ and don't mark them as minor if you want people to actually read them. -- Jniemenmaa 08:07, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, it's termed old-Finnish in old sources. (c.f. Hälsinge-Runor pertains to this language, beyond others, too)
- I saw it was written meän kiele in newspaper (and by e.g. www.tornio.fi). // Rogper 20:43, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Why would we want to replace ä with æ? Give us some authorative source that uses the form "meæn language".
- All language articles on wikipedia should be named in the form "X language", unfortunately Meänkieli means "our language". But "Meän language" would be just wrong, since the name of the language is not "Meän". -- Jniemenmaa 08:59, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Because 'ä' is improper form of 'æ'.
- The form Meänkiele descents from the Swedish form. Themself write meän kiele (Meän-Kiele) or similar, thus Meæn language would be more suitable.
- // Rogper 17:16, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Using æ instead of ä in this case would be improper. Please show me even one source that uses æ instead of ä.
- "meän kiele" gives 5 google hits. "meänkieli" gives 8,310. Example of page that is written in meänkieli and that uses the name "meänkieli": [1]. -- Jniemenmaa 17:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Consider to look for Meän. The character 'ä' is an improper form of 'æ'. The character 'ä' has never existed in English language. The character ä in Skräling is replaced to æ on wikipedia (Skræling is in OED). The character 'ä' and 'meänkiele' is the Swedish form of 'meän kiele' or 'meän language'. I propose and argue that the page should be renamed to Meæn language! :-) That 'meänkiele' is best practice might be cause that you refers to Swedish Govermental sites, which presumably have used Nationalencyklopedin where Meæn language is termed meänkiele. // Rogper 23:58, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Well, æ doesn't exist in modern english, either. And if one should follow your argument with all its implications, it would probably end with the article being written in runes.
- You have not shown any evidence for your argument. The name of the language is "Meänkieli", not "Meænkieli", "Meæn" or "Meænkiele". The Ethnologue gives the names "Torne Walley Finnish", "Tornedalsfinskan", "North Finnish" and the quite strange "Tornedalen". I will not continue arguing with you if you do not provide some evidence for your claims. -- Jniemenmaa 08:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I propose we call it the same thing as the meänkieli-speakers would. Perhaps though, the title should remove the 'language', as it is ambiguous.
--Alcarilinque 22:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The argument made at WikiProject Languages is that we might want to have articles such as Meänkieli literature and Meänkieli phonetics in the future. So the name would not just refer to the language alone. But since Meänkieli redirects here I do not think that is such a problem. -- Jniemenmaa 08:29, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I still propose we use the noun Meän on Wikipedia for Meän language, Meän culture, Meän literature, etc. They simply refers to themself as Meän. The question whether to use ä or æ or ae is somewhat irrelevant. Some Englishmen have earlier pointed out to me that æ should be used instead of ä. For those considering Google as an authority, check yourself that meän gives 11,000 hits, whereas meänkieli gives 9,000 hits. // Rogper 12:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Back to the old argument again... Of course "meän" gives a lot of links in Google, it just means "ours" in this dialect, a pretty common word. For instance the first Google link is to "Meän raatio" (Our Radio). The only relevant links seem to use the form "meän kieli". I would really like to see just one link or reference that refers to the language as just "meän". Note that this article is about the language itself, not the people speaking it. -- Jniemenmaa 13:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Relationship to Finnish
Is it really true that Meän language is a Finnish "offspring" since the 1800s? I think that during the last centuries, the language has rather been influenced very much by Finnish...
Some writers have earlier called it Old Finnish language...