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I notice that in some pages people are referred to, after the first stating of his or her name, by just his or her surname.

I know that this is widely done in newspapers and so on, yet I do feel that it seems incredibly rude.

As a hypothetical example, suppose that there is an article about Jane Smith.

It might start as follows.

Jane Smith was born in Anyville, USA in 1943 ...

Fine.

Yet later it might say something such as the following.

Smith wrote a textbook on chemistry in the 1980s.

I feel that it should say either "Jane Smith wrote a ...." or "Ms Smith wrote a ....".

Is there a specific rule about this or is it just how some people write?

Songwriter 10:58 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it's rude at all, and prefixing everyone with their titles (Ms, Mr) would sound very odd. Also, prefixes change over time, and how would we know if someone liked to be Miss or Ms? Obviously if someone has a more important title, (Dr, Sir), that should stay. I was taught to always use the full name first, "John Keats", and then to use the surname "Keats" from then on. This may just be the British style. CGS 11:23 6 Jul 2003 (UTC).
I think only the NYT and WSJ(?) uniformly add the social title anymore, and it sometimes sounds really odd - "...when Mr. Culkin entered the third grade...". Look closely at the books in your library that are less than 20 years old, you'll see very few of them using Mr. etc anymore.
Of the UK broadsheet newspapers, The Guardian and The Times both have their style guides online, and have roughly the same rule: on news pages they generally use "Mr" (etc.) except for dead people, convicted criminals, sportspeople and artists. On sports and arts pages they generally use surname alone. See: Guardian (under "Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms"); Times (under "appellations"). I personally feel more comfortable using surname alone for encyclopedia articles, even when referring to (for example) living politicians. --rbrwr
The use of the last name without the social title (called an honorific, IIRC), seems to be rude in speech, but in writing it's quite acceptable. -Smack

since sub and sup change the spacing between lines, how about an option to give that spacing to all lines, regardless of whether they have exponents? Pizza Puzzle

Good idea - but it's an HTML issue (more precisely, it's an render issue), and nothing to do with the Wikipedia markup. You should suggest this to either W3 or the browser developers. CGS 23:44 6 Jul 2003 (UTC).

I think I already answered that question. Here:

blah blah blah blah blah blahsupscript blahsubscript blah blah blah blah blah blahsupscript blah blahsubscript blah blah blah blah blah blahsupscript blahsubscript blah blah blahsupscript blah blahsubscript

Accomplished easily using font-size and line-height style attributes. May require tweaking, if your fonts are (probably) different than mine.

-- Wapcaplet 01:07 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I would recommend highly against using absolute font sizes, as these won't scale in many browsers if the user tries to bump the page's font size up or down. Just use "line-height: 160%". --Brion 01:14 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Good point. I wouldn't personally do this at all, actually. Sub/superscripts don't bother me that much :) -- Wapcaplet 01:40 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Even if you can overcome the scaling problem, you may due with something like abc. This is not really a HTML problem, it is a stylish problem for all types of publications!!! Wshun

Help! Is there any browser out there that doesn't screw up something on wiki? IE does bizarre things to some pictures, won't go into pages over 32K (or rather chops the end off) and turns <small></small> captioned text into spidery unreadable stuff, Netscape won't recognise <small></small> at all, putting all text into the same size (which sort of f**ks up captions carefully laid out using the commands), safari is brilliant but times out after 60 seconds (which means that 4 times out of 5 lately on wiki it fails to enter a page, change a page, etc). I thought camino was fail-safe but no, now I find that it too won't accept the <small></small> command. It is as if the designers of these things all get a perverted pleasure in putting some little glitch just to annoy users. :-) Is there anything out there for a mac that doesn't chop pages, muck up captions, move around pictures or time out after a minute? FearÉIREANN 02:22 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

A minimal test page for <small> looks ok for me in Mozilla 1.4 and Camino 0.7... Can you point to a specific page that's problematic? --Brion 02:41 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Short answer: No. There is no perfect browser. But Mozilla and Opera seem to be the least prone to weirdness, in my experience. -- Wapcaplet 02:52 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I always use Mozilla 1.3 on Mac OS X. I suspect that it randomly inserts newlines sometimes in edit boxes, but pics and html and exotic fonts all seem to work fine. Stan 03:22 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Browser notes, if you haven't already. You can look for browsers with no problems reported and report the problems you have encountered not already listed there. --Ellmist 03:59 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Okay, what's the deal with self-promotion and Daniel C. Boyer? He has written his own article about himself and created articles and linked from many articles whenever some piece of his art has the same name as something else. There also appears to be some amount of promotion a female with the same name, Allison Boyer (his wife or sister, perhaps?).

Allison Boyer is my sister. With the possible exception of her being listed under surrealist poets, in my opinion to say "there also appears to be some amount of promotion" of her is inaccurate as:
  • if it is legitimate to have an article on Idealist Press International, Ltd. at all, clearly it would be appropriate to mention that she was one of the original partners in it (I am making no argument about the Idealist Press International, Ltd. article in general here)
  • she did do the illustration for "Blair House" and so would have to be mentioned if this poster-poem is mentioned in Wikipedia (your argument seems to be against the inclusion of "Blair House" in this sense rather than the mention of Allison Boyer)
  • the same argument as above applies to Daniel C. Boyer.
    • --Daniel C. Boyer

    Pages written by Daniel about himself and his personal projects: The Erotic Life of the Eskimo, Daniel C. Boyer, The Tailgating Spinster, List of visual artists, Idealist Press International, Ltd., Surrealist poets, Dead Man, Echo computer graphic, The Dead Man, International Union of Mail Artists, Donnelly, The Octopus Frets, and Surrealist Subversions.

    While it may be appropriate to call some of these my "personal projects," clearly for others it is a flat-out lie (Idealist Press International, Ltd., in which I started out as one of the limited partners and have at times served as President, CEO and CFO, but at any rate it is not merely one of my personal projects; International Union of Mail Artists, founded by someone else long before my involvement in it; and most ridiculous of all to call one of my personal projects, Surrealist Subversions, (which I note you did not look up on Amazon.com) in which I am just one of the contributors and it was edited and introduced by others. In my opinion a major surrealist anthology such as Surrealist Subversions hardly depends for its inclusion on my contribution). --Daniel C. Boyer
    I meant that I believe you added the Idealist Press International page not because there was demand for it, but because you were involved and they published or produced your products. -- Daniel Quinlan Thu Jul 10 02:12:35 PDT 2003
    You have not fully addressed my point, however, particularly with respect to Surrealist Subversions: the notion that it is my participation in it that moved me to add the page, and the more general idea that it without my participation (for which reason I so added it) it would not be in Wikipedia, are beyond ridiculous. Surrealist Subversions is a major anthology of obvious importance in the history of the Surrealist Movement in the United States, and that importance hardly stems from my contribution of two articles and a drawing. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:21 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Pages where he has added references to his stuff which seem to vastly overinflate his relative importance in the world. I don't really have a grudge against the man, but these are really silly:

    I may have missed some stuff (he has also done some edits when not logged into his account). So, is it okay for people to use Wiki as advertising for themselves and their own works? -- Dan at 216.103.211.240

    Generally people aren't allowed to advertise their own works, but clearly there has to be a point where a person is famous enough to be in Wikipedia, and their being a Wikipedian shouldn't detract from that. We decided some time ago that Daniel Boyer is important enough. There are a handful of others in his position, but it is very rare. See User talk:Daniel C. Boyer. -- Tim Starling 05:58 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    It's clearly advertizing, especially for the latter list of places where he's added his stuff to pre-existing articles. I guarantee that nobody looking up Blair House is looking for his products. At the very least, I think some sort of reality check is needed. He has links for individual works of his whereas even extremely well known artists rarely get that treatment. If this stuff was listed on a personal page, I think it would be fine, it should even be sufficient for his ego, but putting it all over the place is clearly trying to generate traffic (again, especially for the latter list of real articles, the ficticious articles are not necessarily as bad). -- Dan at 216.103.211.240
    I don't understand your meaning opposing "real articles" to "fictitious articles". --Daniel C. Boyer
    "real" meaning "Of or founded on practical matters and concerns", "Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious", etc. "fictitious" was perhaps the wrong word to use, but my point was that there would be little or no demand for the articles outside of your own desire to create them. -- Daniel Quinlan Thu Jul 10 02:12:35 PDT 2003
    You can remove references to him in Blair House, 1994 in film, etc. at your discretion. Of course he should not appear more important than he really is due to his own self-promotion. But we decided that he's allowed in the main namespace, so you probably won't find much support for the deletion of articles such as Daniel C. Boyer or The Erotic Life of the Eskimo. You're welcome to try, of course -- you can list them on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion if you feel strongly about it, but be aware that we have discussed this issue before. -- Tim Starling 14:13 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Works for me. -- Daniel Quinlan Thu Jul 10 02:12:35 PDT 2003

    Hi, today Wikipedia is EXTREMELY slow (sometimes 5 Minutes to show a page). I tried it from Germany, I also tried it from Holland, Always the same (over the whole day...) Is there a Server-Problem? Thanks, Fantasy 18:54 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    slow page loads is an ongoing problem of Wikipedia. I noticed a slight problem for a few minutes, but it has since passed. It's something I have gotten used to. It would be nice for someone to isolate the problem :). MB 19:21 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    I've had the same problem lately. I'm placed in Norway. In France one week ago, through a pay-to-surf, I wasn't even able to load the mainpage. Sigg3.net 19:32 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    I personally don't have so big problems with it. But it is specially embarrasing, when you show a "possible" new Wikipedian the page, and after some minutes you have to look for excuses... I think we loose a lot of future Wikipedians by this problem... Fantasy 07:11 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    The answer is that we need both more servers, and more optimisation of the Wikipedia code. The first takes money, the second takes time. -- The Anome 07:28 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    If the money is a problem, I am ready to contribute. How can that be done? Fantasy 07:35 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Talk to Jimbo; he's in the process of getting a non-profit org set up to manage this stuff, but I don't think it's quite yet in a position to accept donations.


    PS: is there a way to donate money to the developers (eg. functions implemented...)? I have the feeling, improving Wikipedia has also some "value"...
    I personally will be happy to take your money. :) However I'm not in a position to commit to new tasks presently; in my spare time I'm just trying to keep things running and, hopefully, get the software upgrades and database updates installed all around. You can try to tantalize other developers with WikiMoney or offer something a little more tangible for new developments. --Brion 07:45 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Can we disable searching again? That seemed to help last time... Martin
    I've got it in title-search-only mode for the moment. It also may be faster to switch to mysql's boolean search mode, particularly for multi-word searches. --Brion 09:35 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I have tried using & mdash for dashes, but get "&mdash" (no quotes) in the article, not a dash. So far I ma using "--" Thanks for any info. User:Dino

    It displays correctly on my browser, even though it's not valid HTML -- try it with a semicolon: &mdash; becomes "—". -- Tim Starling 02:28 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Same thing on my browser (Mozilla 1.4, Linux). The &mdash; entity is replaced by empty space. I read somewhere that authors are supposed to use the unicode reference &#8212;, but that's annoying to type (and edit). Double-hyphen is probably the safest thing to do (perhaps the Wiki-code script interpreter thingy can be made to convert double-hyphens to a proper em dash?) -- Wapcaplet 16:22 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Would someone with sysop status look at Chicago School, Tanzanite and their Talk: pages please. Thank you. Kpjas 09:16 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    List them both on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion -- Tim Starling 09:42 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Possible GNU Free Documentation License infringement

    User:Oliver Pereira has pointed out on Talk:Galileo Galilei that the "Malaspina Great Books" website is including content from wikipedia but claiming copyright to it. Please see Talk:Galileo Galilei for more information. MB 14:48 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Now what do all the important recent deaths on Main Page have in common? (Although to be fair, I've heard of Barry White) jimfbleak 16:51 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    They are all dead?  ;) MB 18:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Feel free to add people you've heard of, when they die. If everyone does that, things should even out more, eventually... -- Oliver P. 18:39 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I've lost an article. I was reading about the cafe wall illusion, went away to knock up a quick picture of the effect, and have now lost the article. I can't find it with a search, or from the optical illusion article, or even in the deletion log. It mentioned why it is called the "café wall illusion" and who first discovered it - that's all I remember. Possibly it doesn't exist and I am just going crazy (er). Any help appreciated -- sannse 19:50 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Café wall illusion Don't suppose it was this one..? Seems most likely (apart from one minor detail about the article), out of all articles containing "wall", "illusion" and either "cafe" or "café", returned by google on Wikipædia... كسيپ Cyp 20:08 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    No, it was an English article. Oh well, thanks for looking - I must have imagined it -- sannse 20:21 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    In any case, it's in English now, since I tested my translation program on the French version. كسيپ Cyp 20:23 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Is there some reason why the orphan pages list is not being updated, it is still from May 13th. -- SGBailey 22:44 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Two reasons: 1. Because updating the list makes the server stop responding for a few minutes. 2. Because updating needs developer access, and developers tend to be eternally busy with other things. Why do you want it updated? It only shows the top 125, so it's pretty useless anyway. -- Tim Starling 23:54 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Could we get the list from a (very recent) database backup, instead of using the live database? CGS 08:30 9 Jul 2003 (UTC).

    Reason 1 is why it isn't live - fine. Reason 2 is pragmatic/practical. I want it updated so that I can see what things I know about that I can un-orphan. If it were a static list, it could easily be 1000 entries long without causing a problem - then if that static list were updated say once a week or better still once a day it could be worked on. That wouldn't be useless. As it is, it may as well be removed from the special pages dropdown. -- SGBAiley 2003-07-09 17:36 BST

    In light of recently discovered GFDL violations in regards to wikipedia, I have created 2 new pages. Wikipedia:Standard GFDL violation letter, and Wikipedia:Sites that use Wikipedia as a source. The first will be a template for letters sent to violators that all wikipedians can contribute to, and to make it easier for us to respond to violations. The second page will be helpful, because since any derivative of works from wikipedia must be released under the GFDL, we can harvest them in the future for information. Could anyone suggest to me where these 2 pages should be linked to from? MB 23:36 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I'm going to drop a brief description into the text of Wikipedia:Sites that use Wikipedia as a source. Should we link to this from the list of public-domain sources we can use? Vicki Rosenzweig
    Great idea, MB. Vicki, I've linked as you suggest. -- Tarquin 09:23 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I want to write freeware encyclopedia based on Wikipedia articles. Can I do it? I don't want to make source of my application open (in opposite to content which will be open).

    From Wikipedia:Copyrights:
    "Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed so long as the new version grants the same freedoms to others and acknowledges Wikipedia as the source." So, any articles you create in your freeware encyclopedia should follow these rules. This doesn't apply to things like your code, which are not derived from wikipedia. Now, I don't know about the wikipedia code (or if you were planning on using it), but I am pretty sure the same rules apply to it as well. I hope this helps. MB 17:02 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Thanks
    Yep - the unnamed Wikipedia software is under the GNU GPL. --mav

    Wikipedia will not convert L'Arc~En~Ciel to a link. Example from Rurouni Kenshin. Submit a bug report?

    Emperorbma 19:24 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Don't know why ~ is an invalid character in a link, but it seems to be one anyway... Changed link to [[L'Arc En Ciel|L'Arc~En~Ciel]], which looks like L'Arc~En~Ciel. كسيپ Cyp 21:30 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Sounds good to me. Emperorbma 03:35 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Copied from Wikipedia talk:Standard GFDL violation letter

    I saw the page which this page discusses in the recent changes list and had a look. In fact, I have an enquiry concerning licensing which I would like to raise and was wondering how best to do it. In the event, this page might be a good way to start the enquiry.

    I notice that the letters have "Dear Website owner's name here,

    We're delighted to see that your website, web page here, uses content from Wikipedia"

    Now, the letters both presume the use is in a website.

    I have an idea for content from Wikipedia to be used on broadcast channels, broadcast using the Digital Video Broadcasting - Multimedia Home Platform system (DVB-MHP) of which technology there is a lot of information in the http://www.mhp.org webspace and the http://www.dvb.org webspace.

    I am hoping that that idea will get taken up by broadcasters and to make that possibility one step easier I am hoping that I can find a clear statement that such use for broadcasting is permitted. From reading the license document my own thinking is that use for broadcasting is fine, yet such reading and thinking does not carry the provenance of an explicit statement on a web page to which I can refer people.

    Due to issues of provenance of information which will arise with broadcasting I am thinking more of the nupedia project for the long term, though the licensing seems the same yet I am unsure as to how much of nupedia is available at present.

    If this is not the correct place for this topic, please feel free to delete it or move it.

    Songwriter 22:55 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    It is my understanding that as long as you a) credit Wikipedia as the source and b) provide a clear means for the reader to find Wikipedia's site so they can access the source (ie the raw editable wikitext), then it's fine -- Tarquin 08:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    I'm not sure that this is accurate. I believe all derived works must be released under the GFDL. MB 19:28 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Thanks to you both. Although a broadcaster could use the text 'as is', one possibility, (which would, in fact, not alter the wording of articles, yet which, in a like manner to a translation would be a modification of the article), would be to use colour codes rather than the sequence of two [ characters in an article.

    I have produced a set of possible colour codes and these are to be found in the following web page.

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/courtcol.htm

    The font Quest text has authoring-time logos for the code points used for colours, based on the Petra Sancta system often used in black and white illustrations in books about heraldry. Thus the colour characters can be viewed in a black and white display in a text editor such as WordPad when using the Quest text font at authoring time, with the intention that when the file is displayed upon the screen of an interactive television the logos are not displayed yet the colour of the text changes.

    The Quest text font is available as follows.

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/font7007.htm

    Readers might find the SC UniPad program useful as well.

    http://www.unipad.org

    The need to make the modified file GFDL licensed is an important consideration. For me, such licensing is not a problem, so hopefully in the future files of text from Wikipedia and Nupedia will be broadcast from terrestrial television transmitters and from direct broadcast television satellites so that they can be viewed on interactive television sets, with no need for a telephone line connection or any return information link back to the broadcasting computer.

    Songwriter 06:48 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    The article Chives doesn't look right in Mozilla. The separation line cuts the right-hand size table into halves. It is not the only articles with such problem. Wshun

    This behavior seems to be triggered by going into standards compliant mode... if I break the doctype to put it in quirks mode, the <hr> will not pass through the floated box. Hopefully there's a sane way to work around this. :P
    Bug is listed at bugzilla, supposedly there's a patch in the works.
    As a workaround, I've patched our JavaScript bits to hack the CSS to revert just <hr> to the quirks mode handling if you're running a Gecko-based browser. :P Hit reload to get the new code. --Brion 04:32 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    From Wikipedia:Reference desk:

    The topic e-business is redirected to electronic commerce. I am writing a separate article about electronic business because I think it is something different. Can someone change the redirection of e-business to electronic business? TIA Rudolph 9:25 10 juli 2003 (CET)

    It's not hard to do: when you click on a link to e-business, it takes you to electronic commerce, but with a link near the top saying "redirected from E-business." Click on that link, and you will be taken to the redirect page, which you can edit. BTW this question should have been asked on Wikipedia:Village pump, and it will probably be moved there shortly. -- Tim Starling 07:48 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I have a copyright question that, as of yet, no one has answered (I hope this is the right place for it). Is it permissable to use a screen shot from a computer program? Is this considered fair use or copyright infringement? I know this is a tricky question, but since the 'pedia has so many articles about 1000's of peices of software, it could really benefit from some images of them running.

    Before someone answers right away, "No! It's copyright infringement! Go away!" I remember a case several years ago regarding Electronic Arts and their program Deluxe Paint. EA claimed that they had a copyright on every image created with DP since they owned the copyright for DP. The courts struck them down saying that they did have the copyright for DP, but not for content created by the tool. Couldn't the same reasoning be applied to screens of software running? For example, if I author a letter with MS Word, I've used it create an image of my letter, so is taking a screen shot of it a copyright violation?

    I really do want a definitive answer to this, as I'd like to enhance a lot of articles with pertinent (quality) screen shots. But I also don't want to violate any copyright laws or put the 'pedia in jeopardy. Can anyone give me (or point me to) a qualified answer to this? —Frecklefoot 16:13 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I am not a lawyer, but this has got to be fair use. Hopefully someone has a solid legal answer. -- Wapcaplet 16:27 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Found Microsoft's policy on screenshots (towards the bottom), which seems pretty restrictive, but could probably work with Wikipedia's purposes. Apparently Duke Nukem has restrictions on what can be screenshot. It could get tricky. -- Wapcaplet 16:39 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    Thanks, Wapcaplet. That covers Microsoft products! I'd love to hear a definitive answer which covers all software products. Anyone else? —Frecklefoot 16:50 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)


    Found a huge source of public domain information that hasn't been wikified

    http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html

    Moved from Talk:Main Page

    hello elefantfriends I LIKE to create a peace wiki if you like to help ? mailto:[email protected] thanks ernest.

    Empty page

    How can and why would a person make an entirely empty page on WP? (Not as a result of deletion, but "addition") I mean, zero character whatsoever! I discovered this anomaly. --Menchi

    I am pretty sure it was a noob visiting a dead link, saw there was nothing there, and to exit the page they clicked "save". The software shoulnd't create the page if there is not text. CGS 23:31 10 Jul 2003 (UTC).

    It probably contained only whitespace. The software rejects zero length articles, and then after that it strips trailing whitespace, and it doesn't check the length again before save. -- Tim Starling 01:13 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    I've discovered that Wikipedia is inconsistant on how it disambiguates plays. Some musical plays are given the form play (musical), but some have play (play). RickK 02:48 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

    Vote for Deletion

    Gentlefolk, I hope I am no longer a complete newbie here, but I still have lots of questions.

    I note that the entry for Red Dawn is something like a review of the movie, and not a very good one at that. I propose we eliminate it.

    However I have no idea how to get to the Votes for Deletion page, nor do I have a clear understanding of how it works.

    Little help? Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi

    It's at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. (Also a link to it on recent changes.) كسيپ Cyp 10:11 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
    1. Please make it four tildes, Paulin, to include date (like RickK above). It's just one more press. --Menchi 10:14 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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