Talk:South Tyrol/Naming

Archives
Archive 1	Archive 2

Requested move

South Tyrol → Province of Bolzano — This area is shown on the majority of English maps and lists of provinces of Italy as Bolzano. This province in English is referred to as Bolzano, not South Tyrol. This can be shown by looking at any good quality reference. Also, this page should fit the convention where the provinces of Italy are listed as Province of Trento, Province of Rome, Province of Milan, Province of Venice, etc., etc. If there is a strong desire for a South Tyrol page, it should be moved to South Tyrol (historical). Taalo 10:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Please read: This page has seen tons of votes regarding it's name. Basically all of the comments have been German speakers vs Italian speakers, who are indisputably influenced by their personal opinion. Since I really think that this poll might work, I would like to ask (if you will) if you have an inherent bias as a German- or Italian-speaker that you please identify that somewhere in your comment. This is not mandatory, but would help a lot. I would like to remain neutral in this dispute and hopefully I can try to keep things under control. Thank you. —METS501 (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support Any basic list of provinces has Bolzano listed, as well as Trento, Rome, Verona, etc. This page should be moved to Province of Bolzano as this is what is used most often in English to refer to this province -- simple. South Tyrol, if kept, should be restarted as a South Tyrol (historical). An attempt to recast this province as South Tyrol is just complete partisan politics. If South Tyrol is used, why not Alto Adige or High Adige? Regardless, the point of en Wikipedia is to use what is commonly used in English, and again, any English list of Italian provinces has Bolzano, not South Tyrol. Taalo 10:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support I completely agree with Taalo. I would prefer Autonomous Province of Bolzano, as Autonomous Province of Trento, but, anyway, this is better than the current title. --Checco 18:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Support: it is the official name. And the problem of the biligusim is well described in the aricle..--Giovanni Giove 18:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Support agree with checco Autonomous Province of Bolzano is best--Francomemoria 23:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Support i agree with what was said above. --Fertuno 15:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Support - this is generally how article on Italian provinces are named. john k 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
7. Support and agree with John. For the record, Britannica uses Bolzano-Bozen provincia, while Columbia uses Bolzano province. I support a division of articles. Olessi 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
8. Support I'm in favor of moving this page to Province of Bolzano-Bozen noclador 17:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
9. Support I speak neither German nor Italian. As far as my colloquial usage is concerned, this area is known by me as the South Tyrol. What its official name is is of little concern to me - I'm quite used to official names of things being radically different to what everyone else calls it in everyday life. Officially, I live in London, but everyone round where I live knows full well we are in Middlesex. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol can call it whatever they like - as far as I'm concerned, the perfectly good English name is South Tyrol. I don't complain when non-natives call London Londres, Londra, Londen, Londyn, Lontoo, or even Λονδίνο. I suspect any English-speaking people with a passing knowledge of geography would have a better idea where the South Tyrol was rather than Bolzano. However, all of the above said, this is meant to be an encyclopædia, and I would suggest that the article should best be entitled by the South Tyrol's current official name, with a redirect or possibly a small article under South Tyrol explaining the historical and/or (English) colloquial usage. WLD^talk|edits 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose. See all the discussions above. Markussep 13:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

   What are your objections to using Province of Bolzano but then a South Tyrol (historical)? Then having South Tyrol redirect to the Bolzano page. In English, this province is referred to as Bolzano, just as we refer to the state of Maryland. The thing is that in Italian provinces, the names mirror the largest cities, so we need to differentiate by using Province of... explicitly in the page name. regards. Taalo 20:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

2. Oppose Again as usual. Gryffindor 17:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose. If the article were essentialy about the province today then Autonomous Province of Bolzano would be my clear first choice. But the article is more generally about the area, currently in Italy, long known in English as South Tyrol. If people were prepared to do the writing, I would strongly support a split, with South Tyrol as the umbrella topic, including a brief section on the autonomous province and pointing to its main article. And vice versa. —Ian Spackman 08:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

   Split is in the proposal above. *thumbs up*. Taalo 17:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

   You got it right. We probably need to split the article in two articles: one about the province, the other one about historical South Tyrol. --Checco 11:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

   It is pretty straightforward really. South Tyrol -> Province of Bolzano and History of South Tyrol -> South Tyrol (Historical), with pointers back and forth as Ian suggests. Then have South Tyrol redirect to Province of Bolzano. This page has historical information, but in its core it is regarding this province. Every respectable English reference lists the provinces and includes Bolzano. Taalo 01:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

4. Oppose, the article isn't about the province alone. Split would be an option. --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

   Split is in the proposal above, so what is the opposition to? Taalo 16:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

   --85.124.8.189 14:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

5. Oppose. South Tyrol is the appropriate name, understood by everyone. Taalo, you needn't comment every opponent. --PhJ 15:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   Though I'm free to, especially when you fail to make a comment that helps us move forward. It is an appropriate name, understood by everyone? And? What about the English references? What about the real name of the province being Bolzano (Bozen)? What about South Tyrol being only a translation of the German name, and thereby not being a compromise what-so-ever? But again, I saw your posts about keep fighting.. *rolls eyes*. Taalo 16:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• Map from the Encyclopedia Britannica: [1]. Taalo 10:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Per Rarelibra. Taalo 10:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC):

So I did some research and checked with some pretty credible sources as to what they print, in ENGLISH, for the name of this region (and province) in Italy.

• Fodor's - a well recognized and respected name (and expert guide) has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Michelin - also expert in travel guides - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bozen".

• Rand McNally (name speaks for itself) has world, regional, and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Streetwise Map's regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Dorling Kindersley or "DK" - by far, probably the best travel guides available - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Lonely Planet (the self-proclaimed largest independently-owned travel guide) regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

• Hammond Map - a subsidiary of Langenscheidt Publishing Group (a privately-held German publishing company) - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

As far as proof, I am quite sure that the above sources are credible enough, especially in the sense of geographical knowledge, expertise, and English-translation. Rarelibra 03:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I see this not so relevant list is used as "proof" again. See the comments and test results at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name#the REAL name: Trentino-Alto Adige. Markussep 15:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Aren't bi-weekly move requests abuse? --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Some editors propose to have an extra article about the "historical" South Tyrol in addition to one about the Province of Bolzano. This is illogical, because the two terms are equivalent. The term "South Tyrol" in the sense of the area of today's Province of Bolzano did not exist before 1919. Before that time, when Tyrol was still a unified territory, "Südtirol" denoted the part of Tyrol south of the Salurner Klause. From 1919 on Südtirol has been used for the part of Tyrol that was incorporated into Italy. So, there is nothing "historical" about South Tyrol, there is no "historical" South Tyrol.  Andreas  ^(T) 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So besides your critism of the proposed solution, what is your alternative? Is using something like Province of Bolzano (Bozen) and a redirect from South Tyrol to this page not sufficient then? Especially that you don't like a historical South Tyrol page? The simple fact is that lists of Italian provinces have Bolzano, and it is perfectly fine to add Bozen to that too. You do not find English lists of Italian provinces that have South Tyrol, Seudtirol, Bozen-Seudtirol. Besides, Bolzano (Bozen) is a compromise and includes both languages. I'd really like to see a few of the German folk compromise on this issue.. just a bit. It would make my German-side feel a lot better about itself! Taalo 16:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Intepretation of the results so far

So fare we have 8 users out of 10 who dislike the current title of the article, 6 of them would accept Province of Bolzano and 2 would accept it, if the article is split in two: a article about the Province and an other one on the historical South Tyrol. We need a compromise solution, but what is sure is that we need to change the title to this page, as only 2 users out of 10 staunchly defend the status quo. --Checco 08:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. There are at least four defenders of the status quo, and the others have no real problem with the present title, except for Checco and Taalo. --PhJ 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And sadly the defenders are all German-speakers, so it is just degrading again into a POV battle. I saw what you wrote on Martin's page about keep fighting. Why don't you instead try to compromise. Every major English reference lists the provinces of Italy, including Bolzano. A compromise would be Province of Bolzano (Bozen). A non-compromise is South Tyrol which is an English translation of the German name for this region. Why don't you bring up an equal list of English references that list the provinces of Italy, and say South Tyrol? why? Because Wikipedia is based off English references, not having twenty of your friends some here and fight. Taalo 16:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you able to read, PhJ? I see 6 votes in support of the move and 5 votes against (of which 2 are in favour of a split of the article). This makes 8 against the status quo and 3 who defend it (there's one more tha before: you). I can't understand what you counted. --Checco 16:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And you folks need to stop making fun of users like PhJ and start respecting others, it's really sad how this discussion goes and how you try to superimpose Italian names at all costs. This is not some Italian nationalist irredentism you need to fight out here. Gryffindor 17:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Gryffindor, you have to be kidding. You accuse others of Italian nationalism when the names we have now soley support a German nationalism. You have Italian speakers that are largely looking for a compromise, but you are summoning German speakers to push for this status quo. You have grown a strong bias over this situation, that you think that you must protect the Germans? Why don't you look after everyone? Just remember, you initiated the move in the first place where you unilaterally decided to remove Alto Adige and put only South Tyrol. Its forgivable, and I hope your intentions were good, but we have to come up with a shared solution now. I've said before that the irony in pushing for "German" names like Meran, is that they are in fact the local Italian language/dialect words going back to even pre-German migration into the region. I'm not trying to say Roman > Germanic, I'm just saying it isn't so black and white as a lot of you would like to believe...Taalo 17:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Could we go with?

Could everyone agree with Province of Bolzano (Bozen)? This satisfies 1) English usage of Bolzano for the province name 2) shares the Italian and German naming. I feel like I'm running a kindergarden! :}~~ Come on guys, compromise, none of this ridiculous keep fighting. Taalo 16:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like fights either, but this name simply won't do. The region is called "South Tyrol" and it's even part of the official name, check the homepage of the government of South Tyrol. Gryffindor 16:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But every major English reference that lists provinces of Italy lists Bolzano. How do reconcile this? If you want to talk about the region then you have to say Alto Adige/South Tyrol as well. Anyway, the regional name is accounted for at what would be Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. The province pages can be Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano (Bozen) and we are done. We have proper English usage in the titles and we also have proper sharing of the names. Taalo 17:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is the homepage in Italian, which is the official language in Italy and also in the Province of Bolzano. Did you know it? --Checco 16:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support It is a compromise solution which doesn't make everybody totally happy, but at least is better than the current title (I think that most you you will agree with me), which is contested by 8 (included those 2 who support the split, which will be the next thing to do, IMO) users out of 11. --Checco 16:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone dislikes Alto Adige, some others South Tyrol... we need a compromise and what is better than sticking to the official name of the Province, called (Autonomous) Province of Bolzano in the Italian Constitution. Every Italian province is named Province of XXXX both by the Italian government and by en.Wikipedia (from Province of Sondrio to Province of Trapani). So what's the problem? --Checco 16:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not happy about it, but anything else than a single "Alto Adige" or "Upper Adige" solution can be acceptable for me. So after fighting there can be compromises. --PhJ 17:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

  Well, just the same I hope you should say "anything else than a single "Seudtirol" or "South Tyrol" as is the situation now. You can gain a lot by trying to protect both sides, you know? :} Anyway, the regional names can be perfectly captured in Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. This province in Italy is Bolzano (Bozen). It is official, and it is in every major English reference that lists Italian provinces. We can't just cover our eyes. Taalo 17:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• It seems to me that South Tyrol should be about a historic region, and Province of Bolzano or Province of Bolzano (Bozen) should be about the present day province. (We could make a similar distinction between Trentino and Province of Trento). john k 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

  Yeah, even though I think that using Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol holds the regional names very well right there. Then Province of Bolzano (Bozen) properly references the province. Bingo, done! Taalo 18:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussions

• Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

But all the major English references that list Italian provinces use Bolzano, so that is the English usage. There are none that use Bozen-South Tyrol. The official name of the province is Bolzano (aka Bozen). South Tyrol is now a name for the region, and which is included in the name Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. (i.e., we don't say Province of Trento-Trentino). They translate it this way on the BZ provincial website, but that page already has some unfortunate bias, and we shouldn't use one non-native English website as the beacon of truth. They could of just as well translated it as Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I would of had a much better impression had they done so! Taalo 18:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• HERE is a paper that shows the name as "Province of Bolzano/Bozen-South Tyrol" (this seems, again, very neutral and pleasing for all parties involved).
• HERE is another that shows it as "Province of Bozen-Bolzano/South Tyrol" in English.
• HERE is a website that shows it as "Province of Bozen (South Tyrol)".
• HERE is a website that shows it as "Bozen-Bolzano (South Tyrol)".
• HERE is a usage with "Province of Bolzano-Bozen - South Tyrol".
• HERE is an EU report with the usage of "Province of Bolzano-Bozen (South Tyrol)".
• HERE is an Italian (South Tyrol) website with the usage of "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol" (as the provincial government uses in English).
• HERE is a source that shows the name as "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" (which I think is a great compromise and proper English translation). Rarelibra 19:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This shows an overwhelming presence of the use of "South Tyrol" appended to the provincial name (and the provincial government uses the translated English name of "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol"). Rarelibra 19:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather use true English references such as Britannica, Michelin, etc., than a few translations like this. You can indeed use Google to find many variations, but I don't know how it really helps. Like a few of these translations are from a .de or .at website, so that is how they translate into English. A simple solution is that the regional name contains all the historical names: Trentino, Alto Adige, South Tyrol. The province doesn't need to have Province of Bolzano (Bozen) - Alto Adige/South Tyrol. It is redundant, and no different than using Province of Trento-Trentino. Anyway, back to the references you found yourself (above). Major English references that have a list of provinces of Italy list Bolzano. Bolzano (Bozen) is a nice way to share. Taalo 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• South Tyrol

Markussep, you say the province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English. But are you a native English speaker? :} Can you show me common English-based references that list the provinces of Italy and just South Tyrol? The comprehensive lists that Rarelibra posted above show Verona, Trento, Bolzano, Milan, Rome, etc. Taalo 19:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not a native speaker, but I do read and speak English. I'm not going to answer the same question a zillion times. Take a look at Google Books, Google news and Google Scholar and tell me again that South Tyrol isn't used in English. Markussep 21:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL, come on, you are missing the boat here. :} The point is not if South Tyrol is or isn't used in English; and I definitely agree it is a proper translation of Seudtirol and is commonly used in English. The debate however is over how to name the provincial page in a way that uses English, but also is a compromise. Look, Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol); what is wrong with this? It's all English usage and it takes both sides into account. Your South Tyrol stays in the title, but others opinions on the matter are taken into account. We obviously need a compromise, simply because there is large dissatisfaction with having what many believe should be the Province of Bolzano only at South Tyrol. Taalo 21:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've said before what's wrong with it: the combination is not, or very rarely used in English. Take another look at WP:NCON, the title doesn't have to reflect all opinions. I'm very sure that "South Tyrol" is more used in English than "Province of Bolzano" (or whatever combination). Markussep 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually, all of the other articles have "Province of (name)" in their format, so it only is logical to have the same for this province as well. Wiki does have rules regarding keeping standards and conventions the same. South Tyrol is not special in this case, either. Rarelibra 21:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

---

First Round Poll (as done on regional page - discussions above)

• CHOICE A: move page, using some "Province of ..." designation:
  • current count: 10 votes
  • native-language breakdown: English (5); German (1); Italian (4)

Province of Bolzano

1. Support: As in the survey above. --Checco 22:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support: this is the translation of the official name "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano" or german official name "Autonome Provinz Bozen" in English is "Autonomous Province of Bolzano". The use from provincial government of Alto Adige and Sudtirol names in not recognized from italian state--Francomemoria 20:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   Note that I believe we could better argue that Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano + Autonome Provinz Bozen = Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen; which shortens to Province of Bolzano-Bozen. tada! :} Taalo 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

3. Support: it is the official name. And the problem of the biligusim is well described in the aricle..--Giovanni Giove 18:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Support: - this is generally how article on Italian provinces are named. john k 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Support: and agree with John. For the record, Britannica uses Bolzano-Bozen provincia, while Columbia uses Bolzano province. I support a division of articles. Olessi 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Support I speak neither German nor Italian. As far as my colloquial usage is concerned, this area is known by me as the South Tyrol. What its official name is is of little concern to me - I'm quite used to official names of things being radically different to what everyone else calls it in everyday life. Officially, I live in London, but everyone round where I live knows full well we are in Middlesex. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol can call it whatever they like - as far as I'm concerned, the perfectly good English name is South Tyrol. I don't complain when non-natives call London Londres, Londra, Londen, Londyn, Lontoo, or even Λονδίνο. I suspect any English-speaking people with a passing knowledge of geography would have a better idea where the South Tyrol was rather than Bolzano. However, all of the above said, this is meant to be an encyclopædia, and I would suggest that the article should best be entitled by the South Tyrol's current official name, with a redirect or possibly a small article under South Tyrol explaining the historical and/or (English) colloquial usage. WLD^talk|edits 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen

1. Support: This title includes the most used English name for referring to the Italian province Bolzano (in English maps, encyclopedias, etc.). A basic compromise is listing Bolzano-Bozen, something which is done in the province itself and in many English references. Right now a page Province of Bolzano/Province of Bolzano-Bozen is glaringly absent from English Wikipedia. I will also support Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol if the other-side prefers South Tyrol over Bozen. The bottom line is that major references like this [2] can not simply be ignored in favour of one-sided nationalistic POV. . Taalo 18:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support noclador 03:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Support: --Fertuno 18:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

1. Support - the translated name from the provincial government website into English is "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol". The Italian name is Bolzano, but the translated English name is Province of Bozen-South Tyrol (as the French, Ladin, and German names also differ slightly). This is English wiki, we should use the proper translated English name. Rarelibra 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   This is a solution that is entirely a German POV though, one that is likely based on a few people working in the provincial office. When I see most people refer to this province in English, it is simply province of Bolzano, or sometimes Bolzano (Bozen). Province of Bolzano (Bozen) captures both sides, like we are attempting to do on Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. I don't see how we can get anything but nationalistic backing for names like Province of Bozen (South Tyrol) and just South Tyrol. By rights we should just use Province of Bolzano, but I'd rather we come up with another shared solution. Just as Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is just the German name. Anyway, I can only back a solution that has both sides included: Province of Bolzano (Bozen), Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol), what have you. Taalo 20:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• CHOICE B: keep "as is":
  • current count: 9 votes
  • native-language breakdown: Dutch* (1), English* (3); German (5)

* note that these two users are fluent in German :)

South Tyrol

(Note: this option includes no "Province of ..." designation).

1. Support. Splitting this article doesn't make sense since South Tyrol only became a separate entity after WW1, at the same time it became a province of Italy. Between the Napoleonic wars and WW1, it was a part of the Austrian crown land Tyrol, and from the Middle Ages until the Napoleonic wars it was a patchwork of states within the Holy Roman Empire. The province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English. Markussep 19:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   Markussep, you state "The province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English.". I really disagree with this, especially as a native English speaker. For example: [3]. Someone goes to this and sees Trentino-Alto Adige as the region and Bolzano-Bozen and Trento as the two provinces. This is plain and simple. Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol has both sides in the name. I fail to understand the lack of any desire for compromise. Taalo 19:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   I disagree, Markussep. I have shown above that the "common" English is a mixed form. Rarelibra 19:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   English-based lists of Italian provinces list Bolzano. You don't go to Rand McNally, Britannica, etc. and see South Tyrol as one of the provinces. It is really that simple. A compromise is Province of Bolzano (Bozen). I could possibly get behind Province of Bolzano/Bozen-South Tyrol, though it is really unnecessary in my opinion. The regional name contains all the traditional names, Trentino, Alto Adige, South Tyrol. Taalo 19:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   Rarelibra, you have a funny idea about what's commonly used in English. Show me an English language newspaper that uses Province of Bolzano/South Tyrol or something similar. Taalo, please stop focusing on lists of provinces. This article is not just a list filler. Markussep 19:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   But Wikipedia requires us to base what we do on something tangible.. I'm basing it on what I know as a native English speaker, and what the vast majority of proper English references use. You are just stating that South Tyrol is what most people refer to this province to, but as a non-native speaker, how do you know? I just can't agree with having the Province of Bolzano instead be listed as just South Tyrol, that's all. I see the license plates have BZ. I go to maps that have Trento beside Bolzano (Bozen). There is simply no Province of South Tyrol -- not to mention that having the article here maintains no compromise what-so-ever. German POV all the way man. :} Taalo 19:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   The BZ license plate has nothing to do with what English-speakers call the region. By that argument, Switzerland would be retitled to Confoederatio Helvetica (CH). --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 01:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   I disagree. When foreigners go to Switzerland they will want to find out what the CH means on the cars. Same thing with BZ on the cars in Bolzano (Bozen). I found many Americans who visited made that connection quite easily. By no means is BZ the end-all argument, but it is not frivolous. Taalo 01:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   I'm not too worried about Markussep. Let he think what he wants. The proof has been presented. He can deal with it in his own way. Rarelibra 20:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   You needn't worry about me, whatever you mean with that. Your proof is not convincing. I checked some of the links you gave under #Could we go with?. The first one only uses the (very) long name in the header. Everywhere else it's "South Tyrol" (e.g. first line: "The Provincial Government of South Tyrol has started..."). The second one only uses the long name in quotes, in the rest of the document it's "South Tyrol" or "Province of South Tyrol". The third one uses it only once, and it uses "Bundesland of Tyrol" for the Austrian state. I hope you're not suggesting that Tyrol (state) should be renamed. The fourth one is a copy an old version of the Wikipedia article on Schlanders. The fifth one is an online forum, those are not the most reliable sources of information. Your list of guidebooks and roadmaps has already been commented by Septentrionalis and myself at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name#the REAL name: Trentino-Alto Adige. Markussep 10:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   Markussep - I cannot spoonfeed you any more. If you didn't see in the one article where they said "hereafter referred to as 'South Tyrol'" - that is called a shortened name for replacement inside an article... so you don't have to continually type out the proper name. The list you mention is not of "guidebooks and roadmaps" - it is of major recognized and respected geographical knowledge centers - and we won't even talk about your comments or Pmanderson (the "Septentrionalis" real name). You can continue to be stubborn, but the rest of the world won't, plain and simple. Rarelibra 13:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   It is a list of travel guides and road maps (Michelin, Lonely Planet, Fodor's etc.), and as Septentrionalis pointed out, they tend to use local names because that's what you encounter when you're there. About shortened names, that's exactly like "French Republic" and "France", guess what's the article title. Please don't use patronizing expressions like "spoonfeed" and "stubborn". Markussep 14:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

   You and I would be best to agree to disagree and move on, because as long as you patronize my input, I will patronize back. I am not one to stand and "take it" without dishing it out, period. Those companies are geographic experts (because I included others such as Rand McNally). As for shortened names, it is a difference to 'shorten' a name in usage, such as "South Korea" instead of the full name, as compared to using a name like "South Tyrol" as a substitute for the proper province name. This article is the only article that doesn't conform to the other "Province of (XXX)" articles (excluding, of course, Aosta, which is autonomous and a valley). It really does need to be changed. The proposals are incredibly sensitive and respectful - the naming such as "Province of Bozen-Bolzano (South Tyrol)" which is official and would designate the proper title. With some users attempting to remove it from Wikiproject Italy, it smacks of a desire to be 'special'. It is a diverse province, yes... but the focus is now on ensuring that correct naming is used. Period. Rarelibra 15:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

2. Support. I fully agree with Markussep. --PhJ 19:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Support. I think it best to keep it under the most common name in this case. Anything about the administration and the local government can be integrated into the main article. Gryffindor 22:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   Keep in mind that the article does not conform to the "Province of (XXX)" format that the other Provinces conform to. If a wikiproject has this as standard, then South Tyrol will have to conform as well. The naming from the provincial government is what is more/most popular, not just South Tyrol. I have shown many cases of this. One cannot assume that reference to "South Tyrol" means all in the same. Rarelibra 23:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

   Most common name under what grounds? In your mind? The vast majority of references that were posted originally by Rarelibra show maps, encyclopedias, etc., etc. that list Bolzano or Bolzano (Bozen). I'm fine to keep South Tyrol in the title, but the actual provincial name has to be there too.. i.e., Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol). Taalo 00:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

4. Support ack gryffindor--Martin Se 22:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
5. Support. Obviously. —Nightstallion (?) 15:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Support, the article isn't about the province alone. Split would be an option. --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC

   -Support, what else? Mai-Sachme 17:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)-

   no single-use accounts [4] or sock puppets please..... posted by 71.106.204.137 07:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

7. Support, I'm not a sock puppet. Check it with Ripe [5]Mai-Sachme 17:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

   But are you a single-use account? That would also be in violation. Rarelibra 17:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

   I affirm I'm not a single-use account. I'm just a new member and one of my main interests is obviously South Tyrol :-) Mai-Sachme 17:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

   Let Mai-Sachme vote, it is just better illustrating an interesting trend. :} welcome to en.wikipedia dude. Taalo 22:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

8. Support. I know where South Tyrol was, I'd have had to search for "Province of Bolzano". Most common name in my idiolect. So it would be inconsistent. That's what we have redirects for. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
9. Support, albeit with disclaiming too much expertise. I'm an American English speaker, and all the references I've read have referred to the area as South Tyrol. Now, this is probably because the area is most notable during the WWI-WWII era and that would be the proper name around then; I claim no expertise about what is in common usage now. But, frankly, even if Bolzano is more common now, the area is still mostly famous for its tug-of-war back then. Just looking at the article as it stands right now, and almost all of it is on its history as South Tyrol, and the modern stuff seems to focus on relations with Austria and the like. Maybe this is a case of horribly misplaced focus, but as long as the region's history as "South Tyrol" overwhelms its modern status as Bolzano, that seems the proper title for the article. SnowFire 21:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments

A search with google USA today gives the following results:

• "South Tyrol" 847,000 hits
• "Province of Bolzano" 54,500 hits
• "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" 14,800 hits
• "Province of South Tyrol" 805 hits
• "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" 354 hits
• "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol" 148 hits

(Idea by user Taalo ) noclador 02:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A search with Google USA today gives the following results:

• "Tirol" 22,400,000 hits
• "Tyrol" 4,120,000 hits

A search with Google USA today gives the following results:

• "South Tirol" 1,440,000 hits
• "South Tyrol" 1,260,000 hits

-- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 19:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• LOL!! Noclador, your logic is a bit faulty. :} You have to compare apples to apples. You can't run a test with "Province of ..." and then with just a single phrase like South Tyrol. I'll continue the table for you below:

• "Bolzano" 16,900,000 hits
• "Bolzano-Bozen" 669,000 hits
• "Bolzano-South Tyrol" 10,800 hits
• "Bozen-South Tyrol" 695 hits

• ...and so are you going to change your vote to Province of Bolzano since you appear to purely go by Google hits? Let me sell you the Bolzano-Bozen or Bolzano-South Tyrol instead. :} Taalo 03:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Taalo

• Hmm,... the Province of Bolzano is surely known to most people as South Tyrol- I think that a vast majority of people don’t even know that the official name is different from the commonly known and used “South Tyrol”. I assume that most people come to this article by typing in “South Tyrol” and there is a redirect to this page. If this is indeed so, then I will put my support behind the official name “Province of Bolzano-Bozen”. noclador 03:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, don't let me twist your arm (*twists noclador's arm!*). :} Do consider that your assumption might come from your language/national background. Anyway, "Province of Bolzano" comes up most often and "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" comes second. I'm very willing to take one that measures less English usage but instead benefits everyone by a shared Italian/German naming (my same opinion on the region page). This and the province is shown on most English maps as Bolzano, Bolzano (Bozen), Bolzano-Bozen, etc. Anyway, so I don't have to hear again that I'm trying to delete the word South Tyrol from Earth, I'm perfectly fine with Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol as well... Taalo 03:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

***Please note there is a similar poll at the regional page, currently at Trentino-South Tyrol***

• How do you all reconcile your decision against fundamental English (and politically-neutral) references that show Province of Bolzano-Bozen? [6] Yes, I know they are listing many regions in English and provinces in Italian, but the fundamental point is the province is commonly known as Bolzano and/or Bolzano-Bozen. Isn't a basic compromise to use Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol? Or is it actually coming down to a simple fight to keep 100% instead of a shared solution? A 50/50 solution in a region that is fundamentally Roman/Italy and Germanic/Austrian. Taalo 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Google: "Province of Bolzano -wiki" (49,400 hits); "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" -wiki (11,900 hits); "Province of South Tyrol -wiki" (700 hits); "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol -wiki" (353 hits); "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol -wiki" (128 hits) Taalo 19:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

And South-Tyrol has 855.000 hits. 85.124.8.189 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• read above Anon. You can't compare "province of ..." to just a single phrase...

Well, this is your POV, and I say we can compare it..."South Tyrol" and "Provinca of..." are synonyms. Mai-Sachme 17:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You are way wrong, Mai-Sachme. One is a proper title, the other is a common name usage. They are NOT synonymous. Rarelibra 17:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if we are talking about Google-hits, you can't say, we count only "Province of South Tyrol". If you're checking, how many Google-hits has Italy, you don't count only hits for "Italian Republic", which is the proper title of the country, or not? Mai-Sachme 17:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The name is incorrect and not in keeping with the "Province of (XXX)" title that is used by all the other articles. The point in the hits is not to use common usage, otherwise we can check other common usage and the number hits will greatly vary by name. Truly, your assessment of a 'synonym' is incorrect. Rarelibra 18:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

And who says that we must use a "Province of XXX" title? Aren't we looking for the most common used English name for this province? Wikipedia does not use everywhere the official titles... And by the way: Synonyms are different words with an identical or very similar meaning, so South Tyrol and Province of South Tyrol are obviously synonyms, because both of them descrive the same geografical region in northern Italy. 85.124.8.189 18:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

First - you missed the point, so I will help you. The title "Province of South Tyrol" is still incorrect, as it doesn't reflect the real name translated into English (which is "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol", if you didn't know). Also, in keeping with consistency (which wikipedia suggests), the "Province of (XXX)" is a standard to use because the others conform this way... otherwise, it makes this province seem 'special' when it isn't (as an administrative unit of Italy, that is - don't twist my words). Also, do not confuse long names to official titles, either. And geographical region is quite different than administrative province. It really seems like we need a split for the article - one article for the geographical region of South Tyrol, the other for the administrative province of Italy. Rarelibra 18:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help :-) Yes I confused the long term with the official title. But my opinion is still, that we should use the most common name for this specific region, which is without doubts South Tyrol, so I can't agree in this point. But could you define the difference between the region and the administrative province? Mai-Sachme 18:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are one of the many who appear to be shrouded in the past tense. It doesn't matter what it was called up until WWI. The fact of the matter is, the modern-day present has it a part of the Italian government and assigned a proper name by such government. It is like saying that Wrocŀaw, Poland should be called "Breslau" because it once held that name for many years. Fact of the matter is, the name changed because of historical events. As far as the 'region' you keep referring to, the 'region' of Tyrol (or, properly, "Tirol") is one that encompassed what is now part of Austria and part of Italy. The geographical 'region' includes three "sub-regions" (or individual named 'regions') of South Tyrol, North Tyrol, and East Tyrol. The province is defined by administrative boundary and governmental definition, and viewed differently by the historical population that resides in the 'region'. This is the case in Liberia, Africa (and many other places). Governments went in and "drew a line in the sand" to define an administrative entity, which is wholly different than the region known to the populace. In Liberia, for example, there are tribal "regions" whose boundaries fall over those of the administrative boundaries (and those of the surrounding countries).

So there is a difference in referring to the region of South Tyrol and the province of Bozen-South Tyrol (or Bolzano in Italian, etc). There is also NO historical reference that would create a valid naming convention such as "it was called that up until WWI." Otherwise, most of Europe could still be called "Rome", right? ;) Rarelibra 19:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

---

Confusion

Is the above a straw poll, in that we add our choices, or is it similar to where you only offer support for one choice? Rarelibra 20:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, it seems at this point we have a much wider set of bounds than we have on the regional page. It seems there we have been able to narrow down quite a bit. The province page is still in a bit of a flux. :} Taalo 20:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Italy

I would very much appreciate if Martin Se would stop deleting the WikiProject Italy header. This is the second time already. Taalo 00:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin Se has been warned on his talk page. Even by deleting the warning, he is recognizing that he has read the content and understood - whether he chooses to abide by it or not. If he continues, he will be reported to an admin and will quite possibly be blocked for his vandalism. Rarelibra 14:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Please release South Tyrol from WP Italy

The Lemma will never improve while it is part of wikiproject italy--Martin Se 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As You See I choose an other way (I took WP Italy away only one time)--Martin Se 17:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin Se - deal with the fact that this province is a part of Italy, thus, a part of Wikiproject Italy. Rarelibra 17:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As taalo sugested earlier, we could rate it also as Part of Wp austria

Maybe we could improve the Article (internationally Lemma) together--Martin Se 17:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it may qualify for Wikiproject Austria - a very weak qualification, mind you. This is a province, and it is a part of the country of Italy and the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. It is very much a part of qualifying for Wikiproject Italy. Based on the history with Austria, if you wish to elect it for Wikiproject Austria, then take the initiative. Just don't go around removing tags because of some obsession you have. Period. Rarelibra 17:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

How about leaving it in both projects, maybe that could satisfy both sides? Gryffindor 21:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Gryffindor - I never had (have) a problem with it being in both... just in the removal of the one flag that was quite apparent. Rarelibra 21:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. It matches my user page now.. LOL. I'd suggest not doing this on Province of Trento and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol though. That would probably be stretching things a bit, and maybe a bit provocative as well... hah! and wow, Gryffindor is keen on satisfying both sides. I'm proud of you, and I'm not being (that) sarcastic. ^_- Taalo 22:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hey, the Austrian flag is bigger than the Italian flag! $@#$!%!@#!$&*&@@! and @$@)(*$)!@*!!! Taalo 22:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA. Jeez. Now that's good humor. :) Rarelibra 22:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

this is NOT the way to do things

for a user to go to the German wikipedia and try to get people to come over and stuff the ballot box is just completely wrong [7]. This is simply adding bias on top of bias and is completely against the spirit of trying to work together to find a compromise.

wieder ärger in en.wikipedia [Bearbeiten] Diesmal soll en:Trentino-South Tyrol umbenannt werden, bitte beteiligt euch an der Abstimmung--Martin Se !? 12:35, 5. Mär. 2007 (CET)

annoyance again in en.wikipedia. they want to change the name of trentino-south tyrol again. please go and take part in the poll.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Emes posted by 71.106.204.137 08:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What Martin Se has done is very much political. Because of this, I have chosen to extend the same invitation to users within the Italian wiki. We will have to allow this time during the week for any and all interested to respond. Rarelibra 16:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Great. An edit war between the Italian wiki and the German wiki on how we name things on the English wiki. There must have been another way to handle it, such as informing an admin here and at German Wikipedia and having the offending user(s) blocked. What you've done is escalate the war of words here. This is ALSO not the way we do things here. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 19:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

If you follow it on BOTH pages, you'll see it was removed from both German and Italian wiki. There doesn't seem to be control (esp. with Martin Se) - but please, don't attempt to tell me what to do. What I attempted to do (and has been changed) is not canvassing or as you stated "escalate the war of words" - if we have one side of the playing field, we will have the other, plain and simple. Rarelibra 19:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

What is political to ask his friends to help if needed?--Martin Se 22:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin, I guess if we need to explain this to you, we sure are not going to make any progress anytime this year... Taalo 22:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

100% in favour of Taalo this time. I have friends too (if that doesn’t sound too Malvolio-ish! And I suppose you, User:Emes, do have enough English to get the reference…). But I wouldn’t dream of trying to persuade them to join up to en.wikipedia in order to support me on some half-arsed naming dispute. And quite frankly your record on putting any work into improving the English-language version of the encyclopedia is not very impressive. So I think you should apologise for your behaviour. And very clearly. Alternatively find a friendly admin to get me banned for making a personal attack. —Ian Spackman 17:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I Now know who Malvolio is, but I'd like to explain my Idea of political action: including Nones dialect as Nones language in raeto romance ([8])

Chancing order of Names saying that ladin was spoken there earlier ([9]; Talk - and what with Meranum and Bauzanum)

according to this we shut move this page to Land an der Etsch und im Gebirge--Martin Se 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Order of Names

Since PhJ can only think about edit wars and calling other's edits vandalism, I'll try to start the proper discussion process. User PhJ, we use consensus on Wikipedia, and neither of us actually have it at this point. My proposal is simple for the naming order: Italian-Ladin-German. Italian first, because the pages describe objects in Italy; this is basic convention on Wikipedia. I know PhJ wanted German first on some of the Bolzano-Bozen pages, it is very nice of him to have given up on that one. Putting Ladin second was my idea to just give some respect to what is actually the most native language of this region. I thought maybe German could go last (but not least) since well.. I think German has a lot more stuff out there than the small Ladin world. I guess for some, having German last is just proving too much to take. Anyway, that was just my idea and my opinion. Flame on! Taalo 07:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not vandalism but an edit war: the order of languages in South Tyrol are german, italian and ladin (in RL like here, hopefully)--Martin Se 19:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)