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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dragons flight (talk | contribs) at 20:40, 23 March 2005 (→Proposal: comments and no comma). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Custom Format

I have begun creating a custom format for University System of Maryland institutions. As a graduate of UMCP, I felt it best to start there. Anyone who is interested, should feel free to start attacking any of the constituent institutions pages.--Howardjp 17:45, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So, I'd like to merge the Academic and Organizational sections into one Section structured like this:

(Removed because it was messy)--Howardjp 15:24, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And include a paragraph or two about each program. This seems like the most sensible way to include information on everything, but not eat up namespace like University of California, Berkeley.

Comments? --Howardjp 20:53, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It has to be linked to by "University of Maryland" and "..., College Park", of course. FWIW, all those aliases in bold type atop the current article detract from the its quality. They would never be included in a print encyc., although "UMCP" would likely be eased into in the text.Sfahey 00:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sounds good, and maybe have a template "Departments of the University of Maryland: College Park" or something along those lines for each dept's page. --[[User:Tomf688|tomf688]] 01:02, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
I snagged the UCB article and started cleaning up what I saw as its problems. That can be pulled out. Can you clarify the first sentence though?--Howardjp 01:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I just built a sample version of where I think this page should go at User:Howardjp/Temp. Obviously, it would have more information, but the outline is there. --Howardjp 15:24, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Golly, that's purty. But it makes it look like UMCP is there for, like, lernin' or sumthin'. Go for it.Sfahey 23:34, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Maybe italicize the name of each college to distinguish them a bit more from their headers (academic programs, etc). --[[User:Tomf688|tomf688]] 00:20, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Choice of information

The article definitely needs some discussion of Maryland's academics, but I think there's a better direction. Remember, this in an encyclopedia, not a school handbook. Someone who's interested in each of the Colleges can find information on the UMD website. The focus of an encyclopedia article should be "what makes Maryland interesting or different from other schools" and "what are UMD's most important characteristics."

To put it another way; I was in both Gemstone and Honors. We should probably have a mention of Gemstone, because there's nothing quite like anywhere else. The Honors Program isn't worth more than a passing mention, because it's pretty much like honors programs elsewhere. Now, one thing that would be interesting: I remember hearing somewhere that about one third of Maryland students are in a special academic program of one sort or another (Honors, Civicus, Gemstone, Scholars, etc.) That's unusual, and it's something the administration has pushed for.

IMO the first thing that needs discussing is Maryland's up-and-coming (or UVA wanna-be, if you want) status. Twenty years ago, Maryland was a safety school. Today it has a lot of top departments, admission is rather tough, and it's getting harder to get in every year. Isomorphic 02:34, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Academics

Someone had the bright idea of linking to the real websites of various academic programs. This is a great idea. With that in mind, is there a prefered way to organize all that in a two-column format, or should I just put a table in there? --Howardjp 13:45, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Recent Alumni Additions

There are two recent alumni additions (Darren Mock and Robert DeLeon) which were promptly vandalized. Neither of them have current pages within Wikipedia and Google does not link either of them with the University of Maryland. Therefore, I am pulling them from the list. If anyone can produce reasonable justification for adding them, be my guest and present that justification in the list. --Howardjp 14:37, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Location

This page should be at University of Maryland, which redirects here. john k 00:20, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, the name of the school is "University of Maryland, College Park" and has not been styled "University of Maryland" since 1970. -Howardjp 20:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That is stuff and nonsense. We use most common name. It may have the official name "University of Maryland, College Park." But it is best known as simply the "University of Maryland." Doing a Lexis-Nexis search, I find many, many articles which simply refer to the "University of Maryland," and in most cases it is clear that this is a reference to College Park (there are some that are referencing the medical school and the dental school, though). john k 20:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I remember hearing or reading somewhere that University System of Maryland has officially declared that the term "University of Maryland", if left further unadorned, refers only to the College Park school, not to other schools like University of Maryland, Baltimore Campus or University of Maryland, Eastern Shore. However, I don't mind the current title, which is in general use and is completely unambiguous. Isomorphic 23:53, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Unless the General Assembly changes the name of the school, I see no reason to change it. The State takes the standpoint that "University of Maryland" refers to the University System of Maryland as a whole. Further, it's only among those students who've entered the school since 2001 that they've dropped the ", College Park" part due to sloth. -Howardjp 00:50, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Do you have any source that "the state takes the standpoint that "University of Maryland" refers to the University System of Maryland as a whole"? Isomorphic says the exact opposite. I can certainly say that your second statement is simply absurd - I grew up in Maryland in the 80s and 90s, and everyone has always called it the "University of Maryland," unadorned. If someone says they went to "Maryland," it is assumed that they mean College Park (unless they went to medical school, or law school, or one of the other professional schools in Baltimore). In sport, it is referred to as "Maryland," while, say, the University of Maryland, Baltimore County is referred to as UMBC, or what not. The school's own website is at www.umd.edu, and simply refers to the school as the "University of Maryland." Your claim that "University of Maryland" is only used by lazy undergraduates has to rank as one of the most bizarre things anybody has ever said on wikipedia. john k 02:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The enabling statute (Educational Article, Title 12, Section 101, irrelevant material cut):
(b) Definitions.- In this title the following words have the meanings indicated.
(4) "Constituent institutions", "institutions", or "campuses" means the following public senior higher education institutions under the jurisdiction of the Board of Regents:
(i) University of Maryland, Baltimore;
(ii) University of Maryland Baltimore County;
(iii) University of Maryland, College Park;
(iv) University of Maryland Eastern Shore;
(v) University of Maryland University College;
(vi) Bowie State University;
(vii) Coppin State University;
(viii) Frostburg State University;
(ix) Salisbury University;
(x) Towson University; and
(xi) University of Baltimore.
(6) "University" or "University of Maryland" or "University of Maryland System" means the University System of Maryland.
Also, please see the Maryland Manual from the Maryland State Archives. The claim is not terribly bizzare. I was a student there from 1998-2002, and didn't start hearing the CP dropped until 2000/2001. I remember it starting with the silly "Zoom" campaign. -Howardjp 13:37, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Clearly you are right about the statute. However, if somebody who went to Towson said they went to the "University of Maryland," and it were discovered that, specifically, they had gone to Towson, the general reaction would be that the person was being deceptive. The same would go, to a lesser extent, for someone who went to UMBC or UMES. UMB is a different case, because it is the location for the only law school, medical school, &c. in the system. But normally in that case it will be qualified with "University of Maryland Medical School," or whatever. And I'm not sure about UMUC. But, in general, when somebody says "the University of Maryland" or "Maryland," when referring to what school they went to, the fact that it was College Park is to be assumed. I still find it utterly bizarre that you claim that nobody started dropping the CP until 2000/1. I graduated from high school in Maryland in 1998 as well, and had many classmates who went there. I have very frequently heard of it as just the University of Maryland, and this dates from way back before I was in high school to the present. I will further add that when media sources say "University of Maryland," they mean College Park. The Baltimore institutions are specified by what type of professional school they are (e.g. "University of Maryland Medical School"), while the other institutions are called by their full name. This is completely standard usage. Furthermore, the university itself has its website at http://www.umd.edu, and it simply says "University of Maryland" - College Park is not mentioned at all. The president of UMCP is referred to as the "President of the University of Maryland." So, both media sites and the school's own website use just "University of Maryland." Furthermore, "University System of Maryland" is used pretty consistently when referring to the system as a whole. john k 17:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the current "lead" paragraph states the issue as most people see it, and that for an encyclopedia article the most correct (UMCP), not the most familiar, title should be atop the article. Sfahey 00:03, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That would be a reasonable position, but it is not wikipedia's current naming policy. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). It says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Given that University of Maryland redirects here, and that most references to "University of Maryland" are to the school in College Park, and not to the system as a whole, I think we can say that the name does not conflict with other names. That page also says, "Titles should be as simple as possible without being too general." University of Maryland is certainly simpler than the present title, and I see no reason to believe it is too general - usage of "University of Maryland" refers usually to the college park campus, and not to the system as a whole. The page does represent exceptions to the common name rule - issues with monarchical or noble titles, which obviously do not apply in this case; offensive names, which also do not apply; and misleading names, which, again, does not apply - if the University itself calls itself the University of Maryland, which it does on its own webpage, I can see no argument for saying that it is misleading to use that as the title of the article. I agree that the current opening paragraph accurate states the issue - and given what it says there, which is that "University of Maryland" is the most common name, the page should clearly be moved. john k 00:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The "University of Maryland" page redirecting here is a recent change and probably not a good one. I just changed it back to the old form. While Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) makes a lot of good points, it is clearly ambiguous on this matter. To top it off, universities tend to get an exception to this rule. For instance University of California (which, when unadorned, references University of California, Berkeley), University of Texas (unadorned, usually refers to University of Texas at Austin), University of Alaska, University of Illinois, and so forth. The downside to all my examples, is that they are all arguments in favor of redirecting to the University System of Maryland. I still think a disambiguation page is a better idea. -Howardjp 01:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

University of California seems a special case to me - except in sports, where they are "California" or "Cal," one rarely hears of it without the "Berkeley." The website is www.berkeley.edu. Compare to UMCP, whose web address is www.umd.edu (also www.maryland.edu). The others are clear instances where moves should be made, and I have proposed moves at some of these places (University of Illinois, for instance), and also on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. You are right that, at the moment, pages on public universities tend to be at the full name. But there is absolutely not a convention which indicates that this should be the case, and there are other instances where it is not. University of Alabama, University of South Carolina, and University of Tennessee, for instance all refer to the main campus, rather than the whole system, or being disambiguation pages. Again, what wikipedia policy can you point to which supports your position? john k 03:30, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of all the discussion of official naming, I think the current title is fine, just because it's the least ambiguous. I hear people use "UMD", "UMCP", "College Park", "Maryland", and many others, but "University of Maryland, College Park" is the most clear and unambiguous.
I have no problem with University of Maryland redirecting here. Regardless of what might be official, I find it unlikely that anyone going there was actually looking for University System of Maryland or one of the other schools.
Just in case, one thing we could do is have a University System of Maryland template with all the schools, and put it on each college's page. That way, if you got here through a redirect at University of Maryland, you'd be able to find the correct school. Isomorphic 04:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that a template would be a good idea. Nevertheless, I continue to believe that the article ought to be at University of Maryland. If University of Maryland is unambiguous enough to be a redirect rather than a disambiguation page (and I think it clearly is), and if it is the most common name for the school (which, again, it clearly is - the school's own website doesn't even mention the full name of the school on the front page. The Diamondback, the school's newspaper, also simply refers to it as the "University of Maryland"), then the article should be there. We simply do not have a "Use official names" policy on wikipedia. We have a "use most common name" Policy. There are exceptions to this, but I do not see where this falls under that. john k 04:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A number of counterpoints. First of all, University of Alabama follows the pattern I've advocated. University of Tennessee backs up your claim (Texas A&M University, which you hadn't mentioned, also does). University of South Carolina, seems to as well, but I am not as familiar with USC, so I'll refrain from commenting on it further. Second, the umd.edu page does, in fact, say "University of Maryland, College Park." Third, it's poor reasoning to argue that because umd.edu and maryland.edu take you to College Park's website, it should be changed when umaryland.edu takes you to University of Maryland, Baltimore's site. Fourth, there is significant reason to argue that Wikipolicy is meaningless in face of the California, Texas, Alaska, and Illinois examples I've given, not to mention others I didn't (Minnesota, Missouri, Hawaii, Nevada [yes, I've seen your comments there, too], Massachusetts, North Carolina, and I am sure others, I am tired of looking). You're tired and misguided argument is based on a failed understanding of the reason for using common names. It's so you're not expected to search for "William Jefferson Blythe IV" when you really want Bill Clinton, but proper use of redirection allows both to work. Unfortunately here, University of Maryland refers to three different entities, so you have to use disambiguation, because if you don't, someone wanting the University of Maryland Law School or the University of Maryland Medical School is never going to find them. Therefore, moving this page to "University of Maryland" is a disservice to the users. -Howardjp 14:17, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

University of Alabama is about the school in Tuscaloosa, not the whole system (which includes University of Alabama at Birmingham and University of Alabama in Huntsville). How does it follow your version? The front page of the Maryland website does not call the school "University of Maryland, College Park" at any point - at the bottom of the page it lists its address in College Park, however. I agree that the url is not a good argument. At any rate, the fact is that the current locations of articles is all wrong, based on wikipedia policy, and there is no consistency at all. The fact that nobody has ever gone through and made sure that these article titles conform to policy is no reason to insist that they continue not to conform to policy. Furthermore, your argument that someone will not find what they are looking for if they are looking for the medical school is absurd. We have various means of disambiguating - disambiguation pages, if the usage is about equal, but disambiguation notices if it is not. In this case, I have repeatedly demonstrated that usage is not equal (as it is not for most flagship state universities, with the admitted exception of the University of California system). So all that is needed is a notice at the top saying something like This article is about the University of Maryland in College Park. For the University of Maryland system and its other schools, see University of Maryland System. This does no disservice to users, and allows the vast majority of users who, when looking up University of Maryland are going to be looking up the school in college park, to get to where they were looking for. john k 16:35, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The name of the school in Tuscaloosa is University of Alabama, not "University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa" or anything similar, so it should be left alone. (I misread the address at the bottom of the page, since I grepped the output of a text browser, oops.) However, you argument about equal utilization holds no water. There's a law student in my house, so guess what "University of Maryland" means there. My best friend is a medical student and you can guess what "University of Maryland" means to him. It's about context and your ESPN-centric view of the matter fails to take into account that policy exists for a reason and sticking to the letter of policy abrogates that reason. You've failed to produce a valid argument to the contrary, but I'd more than willing to entertain a discussion that does. -Howardjp 17:19, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Law students at "Maryland" and medical students at "Maryland" are different, but they would say they go to "Maryland Law" or "Maryland Medical School." Any media references would say a "University of Maryland law professor" or a "University of Maryland Medical School professor," not just a "University of Maryland professor." The latter term would refer just to the College Park faculty. And that you say that my argument is "ESPN-centric" is insulting - I have provided reference to the school newspaper, to the school's own official website, and to media references in numerous non-sports contexts, and you have refused to address this at all. john k 18:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From the University of Maryland "Identity Guide", http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/media/identityguide.pdf:

In 1997, the Maryland General Assembly passed legislation allowing the state’s flagship university in College Park to be known simply as the University of Maryland. This action recognizes the historical roots of the institution and formalizes what most people have called us for years. As the only university in Maryland with a mission to serve the needs of the entire state, the University of Maryland is well known by residents from the western panhandle to the Eastern Shore.
  • Formal Name: University of Maryland, College Park
  • Appropriate 1st Reference: University of Maryland
  • Preferred 2nd Reference: Maryland, the university or the flagship;Terrapins or Terps in athletic references
  • Abbreviation: If an abbreviation is needed in headlines or TV chyrons, UM would be appropriate, but not UMCP. The university’s name should not be abbreviated in article text.
  • Location: College Park is our location. Its use as a name for the institution should be avoided.This colloquial reference is not readily recognized by audiences beyond the Baltimore–Washington metro area.

I would vote for calling the page simply University of Maryland and having University of Maryland, College Park as a redirect. Obviously an explanation regarding these issues will have to stay prominently placed at the start of this article. Dragons flight 18:38, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Very nice, Dragon's Flight - I think that's pretty much case closed. john k 19:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not really. That claim is based on the change from University of Maryland College Park to University of Maryland, College Park. At the same time, University of Maryland at Baltimore became the University of Maryland, Baltimore and by that logic, has an equal claim to the name. That said, neither of you have been given a reason why written policy is better than the reason behind it, as I requested. -Howardjp 20:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While I am on the topic, again, I would like to point out a few technical reasons not to make this change. The infobox, common to all USM schools (and derived from the Template:UC taxobox) determines the name of the school based on the article title. The category structure is already in place. Renaming this page, along with all the associated changes, introduces complexity that is unnecessary. Here's a bit more. From Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names), We want to maximize the likelihood of being listed in other search engines, thereby attracting more people to Wikipedia. Also, the Jimmy Carter page has the string "Jimmy Carter" in the page title. The primary reasons to do this is for SEO, and this is not relevant as "University of Maryland" is a substring of "University of Maryland, College Park" and it reduces the seach engine rankings of "University of Maryland, College Park" unnecessarily. I simply do not see what problem you are trying to solve here. I do however see you creating a situation where someone cannot easily find the information they are looking for. -Howardjp 20:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Point #1 - we can certainly make a disambiguation notice at the top that refers specifically to the University of Maryland, Baltimore as well as to the University System of Maryland. University of Maryland Medical School, University of Maryland Law School, &c., can redirect to University of Maryland, Baltimore. Point #2 - I have no idea what you're talking about with categories. But if a page is in the wrong location, such things are not relevant. Point #3 - your quotation of naming conventions is silly - by that standard, we should always have longer names, so long as they include the shorter, more common name. This is not what the common names policy is meant to address, and I think that the argument-from-search-engine-whoring is the weakest argument for the common names policy, anyway. At any rate, you continue to fail to engage with the basic fact that "University of Maryland" is the most common name for the school, and that it is unambiguous enough that a disambiguation notice is sufficient. john k 22:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Proposal for Poll on Name

From reading the comments here, I don't see it as likely that further discussion will be able to reach mutual agreement. However, I think there is an important and general issue regarding the usage of the term "University of Maryland" that needs to be resolved. Hence, I am proposing that a community survey be rendered on how to refer to the University of Maryland campus at College Park. The following is proposed text for such a poll. Please comment on this, and edit it as necessary, but please do not vote on this issue until the text of any potential poll can be agree upon by all parties. Obviously, if you disagree on any of the "facts not in dispute" then that should be commented on and potentially changed. Assumming that parties involved can agree on how to cast the issue, then this material can be moved to a side page (e.g. /Vote) and people be encouraged to visit it by posting on related talk pages and at Announcements in order to get a selection of opinions.

Dragons flight 00:51, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Hey Dragons flight - I don't necessarily disagree. At the same time, I think this is a much broader issue, in that numerous articles like this one are arguably misnames - University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, for instance, or Indiana University Bloomington. I'd prefer that we come up with some general rule, although, obviously, different schools deal with these questions in different ways, making it more difficult, perhaps. But whatever. I have a few comments on the poll, respecting the way the issue of the University of Maryland, Baltimore is dealt. I also wonder if some mention of the continuing ed school, UMUC, should be made. john k 01:04, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'd support having "University of Maryland" redirect to here, with a note at the top along the lines of "For other universities that are a part of the U. Sys. of MD., see University System of Maryland."
@john: I feel the Wikipedia articles should be named according to how those schools choose to name themselves. I Googled UMCP, Bloomington, and Chapel Hill and their articles are all named here on Wikipedia as they are officially referred to. --tomf688 (talk) 01:32, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Once again, this is not wikipedia naming policy, which says that we use the most common name. john k 01:59, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So you'll also be proposing to move Law School Admissions Test to LSAT, Graduate Management Admission Test to GMAT, and Medical College Admission Test to MCAT, right? That's still within educational themes, and there are thousands more like it on Wikipedia. The point is, don't use the rules to put yourself into a bad place, when that is exactly what you're doing. -Howardjp 14:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
John, I agree there are broad policy issues involved, but given UMD's recent identity crisis, I don't think that it is a good candidate to use a poster child for broad policy decisions. I have made several edits to hopefully address your concerns. Dragons flight 04:22, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I want to add that if we can come to some strong conclusion about what to do with Maryland, that would probably point the way towards what the general policy should be. Dragons flight 04:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Nature of Dispute

This poll is to help establish the appropriate way for refering to the University System of Maryland campus located in College Park, MD, and what meaning, if any, should be assumed for the phrase "University of Maryland". The page currently describing this campus exists at University of Maryland, College Park.

This vote will remain open for two weeks from XXX to XXX.

Facts Not in Dispute

  • The legal name for the flagship campus of the University System of Maryland is "University of Maryland, College Park".
  • In Maryland statutes, the phrase "University of Maryland" is reserved as refering to the University System of Maryland as a whole.
  • In common usage, the phrase "University of Maryland" predominantly means the "University of Maryland, College Park".
  • The "University of Maryland, College Park", though acknowledging their official, legal name, explicitly asks [1] that they be refered to as the "University of Maryland":
    • Formal Name: University of Maryland, College Park
    • Appropriate 1st Reference: University of Maryland
    • Preferred 2nd Reference: Maryland, the university or the flagship; Terrapins or Terps in athletic references
    • Abbreviation: If an abbreviation is needed in headlines or TV chyrons, UM would be appropriate, but not UMCP. The university’s name should not be abbreviated in article text.
    • Location: College Park is our location. Its use as a name for the institution should be avoided. This colloquial reference is not readily recognized by audiences beyond the Baltimore–Washington metro area.
  • The University's official graphics do not include the name "College Park" (same reference as above).
  • The University's recommendation to avoid including "College Park" is a recent decision. Most official references to the University prior to 1997 included "College Park".
  • The websites http://www.umd.edu/ and http://www.maryland.edu/ link to the official site of the University. The site http://www.umcp.edu/ is blank.
  • The frontpage of the offical website refers to the school as the "University of Maryland".
  • In NCAA athletics and sports related reporting, the University is refered to simply as "Maryland".
  • At least in a few cases, the name "University of Maryland" might be intended to refer to one of the similarly named campuses: "University of Maryland, Baltimore County", "University of Maryland, Baltimore", "University of Maryland Eastern Shore", "University of Maryland University College" or to the seperatedly located "University of Maryland Medical School" and "University of Maryland Law School"
No, the University of Maryland Medical School and Law School are part of the University of Maryland, Baltimore, which is just the location of all the professional schools. The University says that only UMCP and UMB are to be referred to as the "University of Maryland." But since in the case of UMB one is rarely referring to the school as a whole, but to schools within it, each of which is the only medical school or law school or dental school for the University of Maryland, there is no real risk of confusion. john k 01:04, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is there really some rule that says only UMCP and UMB can be called "University of Maryland"? That strikes me as a little weird. I suspect there are at least some people at UMES or UMBC that will colloquially say "University of Maryland" to describe their school. Regardless, I have changed the text (see below) to hopefully avoid these concerns.
The new stuff looks fine. The page you linked to, in fact, says that only UMCP and UMB can be called "the University of Maryland." I would add that I can never recall the people that I know who went to UMBC (I don't know any who went to UMES, which, as a historically black school on the Eastern Shore, doesn't attract too many suburban kids from Montgomery County), ever referred to it as "the University of Maryland." For undergrad institutions, at least, this term referred to the College Park campus, and to use it for UMBC would only have been confusing. john k 05:42, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Again, this is not true of UMB, which is the site of the main professional schools for Maryland's public university system. john k 01:04, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It also isn't true of either University of Maryland Baltimore County, which is rapidly rising in stature as a national player in hard sciences, or University of Maryland University College which is very well known, especially in military circles, for its distance education programs going back to the 1940s. -Howardjp 03:40, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • <new>The "University of Maryland Medical School", "University of Maryland Law School", and similar professional programs located at the University of Maryland, Baltimore can also be refered to as "University of Maryland". This usage may be common but is less ambiguous since these are the only major professional programs in the University System of Maryland.</new>
No, this still isn't right. There's a law school at the University of Baltimore. There is no business school at UMB (but there is at UB, UMCP, UMUC, and other schools in the system). There is no policy school, but there is at UMCP and UB. There is, however, no duplication of medical programs. -Howardjp 14:10, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Howard, could you perhaps suggest text that would be acceptable to you related to this issue. Dragons flight 17:05, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Proposal

The University should be refered to by its common name, "University of Maryland", and unless explicitly disclaimed all references in Wikipedia to the "University of Maryland" shall be assummed to indicate the University campus at College Park.

A vote of agree could be expected to have the following consequences:

  1. The current page at University of Maryland, College Park will be moved to University of Maryland, with "University of Maryland, College Park" redirecting to the shorter name.
  2. In all articles, except where contrasted against other University System of Maryland campuses, the name "University of Maryland, College Park" should be truncated to "University of Maryland".
  3. Any references in Wikipedia to the "University of Maryland" shall be assumed to indicate the College Park campus unless explicit context indicates otherwise.

A vote of disagree supports the use of the legal names and could be expected to have the following consquences:

  1. The University's page would remain at University of Maryland, College Park.
  2. University of Maryland should redirect to the University System of Maryland <new>a disambiguation page</new>.
  3. Usage of the terms "University of Maryland" and "University of Maryland, College Park" should be left to the discretion of editors at any other pages on which they occur.

In either event, appropriate disambiguation and discussion of the naming issues will appear on the page for the University and for the University System of Maryland.

Vote

Please DO NOT VOTE. Right now this is a proposed poll, and the text of this vote are still being discussed.

Additional Comments

I think diagree option 2 should be changed from redirect to a disambiguation page with UMCP, UMB, and USM listed, which I think is the current form. -Howardjp 03:42, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For more entertainment, University of Maryland Baltimore County is incorrectly given as University of Maryland, Baltimore County in its article name. That should probably be fixed. -Howardjp 03:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Their own website calls it the "University of Maryland, Baltimore County." See [2]. Both usages seem to be used. Certainly one should be a redirect, and one should have the article, but I don't think it's entirely clear which should be where. john k 05:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For now I'll create a redirect at the no comma version. john k 05:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This may have been Bad Idea, but I swapped them this morning since it is generally uncontroversial. I then went through and fixed a dozen or so references, until real work demanded attention. -Howardjp 18:07, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

copied from WP:RM

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Strongly Oppose this multi-move. These are not a set of similar moves, each one should be posted to WP:RM seperatly and due notice given on their talk pages. Philip Baird Shearer 10:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose this move and all related. To summerize what I've said elsewhere, this move is not merely unneccesary, but actually bad. There are multiple institutions with similar names and moving University of Maryland, College Park to University of Maryland, and likewise for related institutions, introduces ambiguous references, and may lead a user to the wrong page. Additionally, using the "use most common name" rule to introduce false information into the encyclopedia makes for a worthless encyclopedia. -Howardjp 14:23, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

It is not clear to me what is going on here. There has been a request to move this page and others in a multi-page move on WP:RM so:

  • why was not move template added to the top of this page or any of the others?
  • why was no posting made to this page announcing this?
  • why is the poll not open and how are people meant to register their support or opposition to the moves?

-- Philip Baird Shearer 10:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

John you have not posted any suggestion to any of the talk pages of the other Universities suggesting the preposed moves. I think that you should at the very least have done that before linking them into a multi-page move. However I think you should post each move seperatly to WP:RM as there is no obvious link between them. Philip Baird Shearer 10:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Notice: I have removed the move notice from WP:RM, as such a broad request was not discussed here and other elements of protocol (e.g. noticing and discussing for related pages) was not followed. John, as you evidently want to pursue this, we should discuss this broader action and then I would be willing to see the request reinstated. Dragons flight 17:03, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Sigh, I will admit that my actions were not proper. I was just trying to get somebody actually interested in commenting on this stuff. I posted a bunch of notices to a bunch of different university pages making the same argument - this was the only one that resulted in any serious response. I also posted to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions and Wikipedia talk:Requested moves. Nobody, so far as I can tell, took any interest. So I posted up to Wikipedia:Requested moves to try to drum up interest. I will, as I said, admit that I misused WP:RM in this manner, and largely out of frustration. However, I will suggest that no other actions have been inappropriate - so far as I am aware, there are no particular rules for how page moves are to be conducted, and there shouldn't be, I don't think. Personally, I think that the highly bureaucratized nature of WP:RM at present is a terrible idea. As I've said before, it should be a place either to a) notify administrators of non-controversial moves that a non-administrator can't make; or b) tell people about pages where a suggestion has been made. In terms of this, I will agree that my largest sin in my WP:RM post was to list pages where I had not actually suggested a move on the talk page. I will assure, though, that this was due to negligence and not to malice - I posted proposed moves to a bunch of similar pages, and was uncertain which ones I had done so for, and which I had not. john k 17:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Secondary Proposal

Given that John K apparently feels very strongly about the naming issue, I believe the appropriate thing would be to amend the above proposed poll to include a general policy proposal. (I am assumming what John K really wants is a policy for using short names regarding universities, and not just to change the names of the 4 universities he listed.) Dragons flight 17:50, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Suggested Second Issue

In addition to the "University of Maryland", many other colleges and universities can be known by either short or long names. This portion of the poll is to propose an amendment to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) to state a general preference for either short or long University names, if a consensus can be reached.

Proposal

A consensus vote of short indicates that policy should be amended to include

In many cases, a well-known university may adopt a short form of its name, even though this may create some ambiguity with similarly named schools (e.g. University of Texas <new>(at Austin)</new> vs. University of Texas at Dallas). If the short name is clearly the dominant way of refering to the school, then its usage is preferred on Wikipedia even though this may create ambiguities in some cases. Editors are encouraged to add disambiguation directions at the top of such pages in order to connect users with similarly named insititutions.

Examples of pages that may be affected by the creation of such a policy include:

A consensus vote of long indicates that policy should be amended to include

In many cases, a well-known university may adopt a short form of its name, even though this may create some ambiguity with similarly named schools (e.g. University of Texas <new>(at Austin)</new> vs. University of Texas at Dallas). In such cases, Wikipedia prefers that the insititution's full name (e.g. "University of Texas at Austin") be used in most cases where the possibility of ambiguity exists, even though many users may be unfamiliar with the long form of the name. The short name (e.g. "University of Texas") should be reserved for a disambiguation page to clarify this ambiguity for the user.

Examples of pages that may be affected by the creation of such a policy include:

The school is Tuscaloosa is, in fact, known as University of Alabama, and the other institutions in the UA System are University of Alabama at Birmingham and University of Alabama in Huntsville. -Howardjp 19:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Okay. You seem to be especially familiar with these issues, can you think of other examples that would fit in this category? Dragons flight 20:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Added comma above. -Howardjp 19:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Actually the USC System seems to refer to it without a comma. An observation supported by the fact nearly 50 wiki pages link to the version without a comma and no page exists at the version with a comma. Dragons flight 20:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

A consensus vote of no change or faliure to reach consensus will result in no change to Wikipedia policy.

Votes

This vote is not yet open, as the terms of the policy proposal are still being discussed.

Additional Comments

This is generally and agreeable poll. -Howardjp 18:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I concur, although it should be on a different page. Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common names), perhaps? If it is approved, I think it should become its own naming conventions subpage. john k 19:21, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will be on vacation and otherwise busy, and might not be around when a poll is actually voted on. For the record, I favor keeping the page at its current title, keeping University of Maryland as a redirect to University of Maryland, College Park, and possibly introducing a template with all the University System of Maryland schools. I don't know much about the case of any other schools, but would probably feel the same way there. Isomorphic 19:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I also favor having references elsewhere in Wikipedia use the short form of the name as long as the context does not make the reference particularly ambiguous for some reason. However, such decisions could simply made on a case-by-case basis by the person making the reference. Isomorphic 19:32, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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