Talk:Collapse of the World Trade Center

This sounds like a conspiracy theory:

Some, however, speculate that it was decided by Larry Silverstein and the FDNY to demolish the building after the damage it sustained.

Larry Silverstein, who held a seven-week-old lease on One and Two World Trade Center and who had built World Trade Center 7, claimed in an interview that he, jointly with the New York Fire Department, made the decision to "pull" Seven World Trade Center, also known as the Salomon Building, and which was then the headquarters of the crisis and disaster command center for the mayor of New York City. Although this may refer to the decision to "pull" coverage of the building by firefighters in order to concentrate work on rescue efforts and other less damaged buildings with available water supplies, some claim that it is an obscure definition of "pull" which means to intentionally demolish a building. Details of how this intentional demolition was accomplished vary widely by theory, with some claiming that the explosives were pre-set weeks before the attack on Silverstein's orders.

Well, indications are Silverstein did say it. And somewhere there's a recording of a fireman saying the same thing. You'd better ask a city fireman what "pull" means to them. (Any readers in NYC?) (Firemen do knock buildings down, even ones not actually burning, if they figure it's needed to stop the spread of fire -- that's one of a Chief's powers, at least in Nova Scotia -- and that can be done by cutting the cornerposts, attaching a cable, and "pulling". Obviously that's not the method on a 47-storey steel-frame, but the euphemism may be the same. The questions would then be -- at the least -- if the building was in such dire straits, who went in to plant the explosives; why have all other controlled demolitions taken months to "pull" off; and how come FEMA couldn't find out this was the cause?)

In other matters, here's an interesting letter from a UL guy to a NIST guy about the likelihood of the observed fires collapsing the towers. "This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans." (The "Link to Original" is broken =/) Kwantus 17:56, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

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For the record, approximately five weeks ago I invited staff of Leslie E. Robertson's company (Leslie E. Robertson Associates, R.L.L.P, www.lera.com) to refute the critical statements made in this article of his WTC design. The invitation has been ignored. The text of my email invitation follows.

Greetings,

I am a writer for Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia at http://www.wikipedia.org. I am about to revamp an article in the encyclopedia dealing with the collapse of the World Trade Center. The current version of the article raises questions about your founder's choices in the structural design of the towers. The revised version will futher explore those questions. In the interest of fairness, I invite Lera to comment.

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, editable by anyone. Superficially, this would seem to invite great chaos in the formulation of articles and a generally low prestige in academic, journalistic and professional circles. Although there is indeed some chaos in the writing/editing process, the result, in the majority of substantial articles, has been of surprisingly high quality. There have been documented cases of major media and even academic/professional publications using Wikipedia material as reference points, if not as references. In short, Wikipedia matters in general opinion formation today. In raw numbers, use of Wikipedia is on a par with entities like The New York Times On The Web, the online edition of The Wall Street Journal and the entire websites of Harvard University, Columbia University and MIT.

I felt some responsibility to send this email because Wikipedia's influence has risen to the extent that some real damage could be caused to your firm by the critical elements in this article.

You can view the article in question in its current form at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

A bit more than halfway into it, five major criticisms of the WTC's design are listed. I would be especially interested in knowing why you feel (if you do) that these criticisms are incorrect. If you are so kind as to provide me this feedback I will be sure to incorporate your viewpoints in the revised article. If you choose to do so, please communicate with me via the email address shown below. Alternatively, you can use the "Discussion" page for the article itself.

Sincerely,

JDG 19:36, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Inacccuracies and misunderstandings about the 1970's aircraft impact calculations and 9/11 realities have been corrected. There is a big difference between an accidental (low-speed) collision and a deliberate ramming at beyond-Vmax speeds, because the kinetic energy changes on the second power relative to speed. Regards "[email protected]"

Regarding Larry Silverstein

A few additions:

Regarding Silverstein: NY Post -November 7, Page 24 By Sam Smith

Here is a quote: Silverstein spokesman Howard J. Rubenstein stated that "FEMA [the Federal Emergency Management Agency] conducted a detailed study and concluded that the collapse was caused by fires ignited by falling debris."

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=999

Regarding Kevin Ryan:

Kevin Ryan tests water not steel and the company has issued a responce and explained why Kevin Ryan was incorrect By JOHN DOBBERSTEIN Tribune Staff Writer

"Some steel recovered from the WTC was exposed to fires of only 400 to 600 degrees, the institute said, but computer modeling has shown higher temperatures of 1,100 to 1,300 degrees or greater were "likely" experienced by steel in regions directly affected by the fires. "

http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2004/11/22/local.20041122-sbt-FULL-A1-Area_man_stirs.sto

Also see:

Fire-induced core column shortening detected.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_latest_findings_1004.htm

Regarding the "secondary explosions" "Once movement begins the entire portion of the building above the area of impact falls in a unit, pushing a cushion of air below it. As this cushion of air is pushed through the impact area, fires burning in that area are fed by new oxygen and are pushed outward, creating the illusion of a secondary explosion. "

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline02/0502feat.html

Explanation of removal of 'Aircraft Considerations' rewrite

To the anon user who rewrote the section comparing the 707 with the 767, I apologize for in effect reverting your contribution, normally I would have edited and blended statements but I could not devote that much time to it today. I plan to revisit this article in the next few days and I will then incorporate some of your points in modified form. I felt it best to go back to an earlier version immediately, though, because I believe your leading points are very speculative, particularly your assertion that the WTC design team modeled aircraft at takeoff and landing speeds and considered only them in their assessments of what the Towers might need to stand up against. I have read a number of statements clearly showing that typical cruise speed was also factored into the analysis: indeed, the foremost precedent on engineers' minds was the crash of a large military plane into the Empire State Building some decades before in which the aircraft was not in either takeoff or landing mode... So, your paragraphs are there in the history and I will go back to them when I have time to do some real editing. JDG 00:01, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)