Talk:Creationism/Archive 6

There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:

creationism - the view that God created everything and everybody
materialism - the view that everything and everyone came into existence without divine intervention
intelligent design - the view that various aspects of the universe and living beings show signs of having been designed

Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.

We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".

Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. --Uncle Ed 13:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is intelligent design required as a separate category? That is, is there any element of intelligent design that is not also a part of creationism? Rednblu 13:31 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes. The Bible is not part of intelligent design. Intelligent design is natural theology, pure and simple. Mkmcconn 13:58 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It would seem to me that the neutral empirical evidence suggests that Creationism and intelligent design pre-existed the Bible.

That is, each element of intelligent design seems to be a member of the set creationism. And apparently there are Bible and Non-Bible subsets of intelligent design. Am I wrong? Rednblu 14:30 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

We have needed to negotiate our terminology, for the sake of making progress on these articles. There is a difference in approach and conclusion, between those who take a revealed religion approach to the issues, and those who argue that reason leads to certain conclusions. It is a separate issue, from whether revelation is necessary to religion. Mkmcconn 14:55 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It seems to me that both the evolutionists and the creationists are unwilling to negotiate a terminology. So if NPOV is to mean anything real, it might be best to negotiate an approach--such as a neutral template that both evolutionists and creationists generally think is fair.

I also agree with you that the evolutionists and the creationists have diametrically opposed approaches and conclusions--which is part of the etiology of the pathological process that generally has produced POV-sick pages biased toward the evolutionists when the creationists attempted to fairly represent history. Rednblu 15:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Generally, it takes time to work out these disagreements. The hotter the topic, the more courtesies are required. We are working with people, rather than mathematical entities. Everyone understands that there is much more at stake than what goes into a Wikipedia article. Mkmcconn 15:27 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes. But, this creationism versus evolution argument is at least as old as Lucretius and his On the Nature of Things and that was around 58 BC. Time? How much time would you like? Why won't the evolutionists work on the Creationism page to get it to state clearly the creationists' views, while the creationists work on the Evolution page to get it to state clearly the evolutionists' views? Rednblu 15:40 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

/ -> I'm growing too reflective in my responses, and I'm sorry. But please bear with just a moment's more reflection. If creationism is identical to what I would rather call The doctrine of creation, then it must be noted (for example) that the Roman Catholic church, like most other traditions, has never made a final pronouncement on either the truth or the falsity of evolution, but is dogmatic concerning belief that everything is the creation of God. Evolution is a peripheral issue. That evidently is not what this article is dealing with Mkmcconn \

Yes. I agree. This page Creationism has nothing to do with evolution. Just as mathematics and architecture have nothing to do with each other--except when they accidentally intersect. That they intersect has nothing to do with either discipline intrinsically. This article should be dealing with, for example, the creationism that the Catholic Church spends its time on--NOT with the evolution that the Catholic Church does NOT spend its time on. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If any theological perspective is peripheral to what we are calling creationism, but religion is essential, then it may be possible that what appears under creation beliefs (a redirect from creation myth), creator god, and a few other places, is suitable here. Mkmcconn \

It would seem to me that the theology that deals with creationism should be here. Maybe on creationism there should be some links to theology where the link would explain something about the structure of creationism. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

But the state of present debate is one of our guides for categories. And at the present, "creationism" is almost precisely equivalent to biblical creationism or scientific creationism. These are are various religious critiques of the atheistic theory of evolution, usually based on or referring to the Bible. In that case, this article concerns the use of scientific arguments to disprove atheism in particular (especially Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Intelligent Design - which differ significantly between themselves). Evolution is narrowed to its aspect as an expression of atheism. This is the reason that an atheist is more likely to complain of POV in this article, than the creationists are, when defining terms key to the debate, such as "creationism", "science", "evidence", "proof", etc. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. So it seems to me that the fundamental problem is how to let the creation scientists say what they see as true on this page without misleading the evolutionists into thinking that a mere scientific proof would convince the creation scientist. A mere scientific proof will not convince the creation scientist that he is wrong. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are problems under "Microevolution vs. Macroevolution". The article speaks of small critters, but microevolution concerns small changes in a population. Does the author referred to, accept the macroevolution of simple organisms, but not of complex organisms? Mkmcconn 15:14 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is the article so US-centric? Tannin

I'm sure that it's only a reflection of what people here know best, rather than a desire to exclude anything. Mkmcconn 15:36 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Because, at least amongst nominally christian countries, outside the US Creationism is not a live issue. IIRC, Even the Vatican has accepted evolution. Something about what fundamentalist moslems/sikhs/hindus/zoroastrians think of it would be useful, though Malcolm Farmer 16:06 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's interesting to go back through the history of this article, and see the revisions of the first paragraph. In its present form, the opening paragraph puts focus on faith in God (or anything called a god) on the one hand, and the recognition of design on the other (which, I would suppose, does not stipulate a single intelligence, nor the existence of a transcendent being of any kind, nor that design is pervasive in all things). In other words, the only alternative to atheism is creationism; and intelligent design may be atheistic, or it may be creationist. Mkmcconn 16:17 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Theoretically you may be right that intelligent design could be atheistic. But whenever has there existed an atheist that argued for intelligent design. Could you name one? Rednblu 16:28 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with the personal beliefs of the proponents of ID, to know whether they are atheists, theists, or biblical theists, or whatever. Just thinking about their argument, however, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adapted to the belief that existing things are the product of other evolved beings, who were themselves a product of others, ad infinitum: which is atheism. They do not argue for what the intelligence is, but only that it is evidenced. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I am mainly interested in how we could come to a NPOV statement for a Wikipedia page on whether there are atheists that argue for intelligent design. Supposedly we would have to find some atheist who actually argued something like looking at all the order among living creatures I conclude that there must have been some intelligent designer who at least designed what we see.

Historically, it does not make sense to me to 1) be an atheist and also 2) conclude that there must have been an intelligent designer. On the other hand, there have been many intelligent people throughout history who looked at the order in the universe and concluded that 1) any actual gods that you find will be composed of atoms and 2) there was NOT an intelligent designer. I cite to you Epicureanism just for starters--and those people started writing down their cogitations around 300 BC. And they evidently got the idea from some people much earlier.

So what process could we employ to actually manifest NPOV on this question in a Wikipedia page? Rednblu 17:44 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [W]henever has there existed an atheist that argued for intelligent design. Could you name one? >>

Richard Milton. See Darwin Doesn't Work Here Anymore: Shattering the myths of Darwinism.

Please note that I do *NOT* endorse the work of this author. -- NetEsq 18:13 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

A useful example, but Richard Milton does not seem to be an atheist. Now maybe he is an atheist who is out to make a buck off the theists. The problem is: he argues basically for time sequences that cater to the market of Americans who believe the Bible. And look at the titles of his chapters: "Rock of Ages," "Tales from Before the Flood," "Fashioned from Clay." That book is not an atheist book. It may not pass the offering plate, but it is a religious exercise.

Ok, look. I will score you one point if I can refashion my question. Can you name a book, writing, or poem that expresses an atheist viewpoint and argues for intelligent design? Rednblu 19:29 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I wasn't personally aware of whether there are any advocates of ID, per se, who are convinced atheists. On the other hand, what I was describing before isn't as fake as it appears at first. There are important religions that worship highly exalted beings, but which believe these beings were in turn created by other exalted beings, and deny the existence of a transcendent being. If this is not what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, then it is at least a common misunderstanding of their doctrine, even among their own adherents. While it would be uncharitable to call this philosophical atheism, at least it can be more fairly described as agnosticism concerning the existence of a transcendent being. You might remember Jeremy Rifkin, and his book Algeny, which did not advocate theism in the usual sense either. So, I don't really know how to answer Rednblu's question. Mkmcconn 18:51 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< A useful example, but Richard Milton does not seem to be an atheist.>>

Richard Milton is, in fact, very well known among evolutionary biologists for his categorical rejection of Biblical creationism as well as his criticism of Post-Darwinism. To wit:

"I accept that there is persuasive circumstantial evidence for evolution, but I do not accept that there is any significant evidence that the mechanism driving that evolution is the neo-Darwinian mechanism of chance mutation coupled with natural selection. Second, I do not believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. I present evidence that currently accepted methods of dating are seriously flawed and are supported by Darwinists only because they provide the billions of years required by Darwinist theories. Because radioactive dating methods are scientifically unreliable, it is at present impossible to say with any confidence how old the Earth is."

(Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, Preface.)

I am an anthropologist by training, and I accept the Theory of Evolution at face value -- i.e., as the most reasonable and scientific explanation for the genesis of life on Earth and the origin of the human species. However, I have always found a great deal of controversy among evolutionary biologists as to the reliability of the claims made by their peers. In fact, the only thing that most evolutionary biologists seem to agree upon is that anyone who questions the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution should be labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States.

As I stated previously, I do not endorse the work of Richard Milton: His criticism of Post-Darwinism is weak at best. At the same time, he is clearly not someone who is trying to advance a religious agenda. -- NetEsq 21:18 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I find what you write very interesting. But I still see no evidence in what you write that Richard Milton is an atheist.

Or did you want to discuss whether the evolutionists are religious zealots? Rednblu 21:27 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The question here is whether there are people who question the validity of the Theory of Evolution without falling back on the explanation that some deity is responsible for creating life on Earth. There are many such people, and Richard Milton is one of the most well known. By comparison, consider the fact that there are many noteworthy scientists who question mainstream theories about the evolution of humans and think that the aquatic ape hypothesis is a much more satisfactory explanation. -- NetEsq 01:33 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, the question of whether there are people who promote an openly atheistic POV and also question evolutionary theory is a lot more interesting. As Rednblue pointed out, critics of evolution seem to cater primarly toward a religious audience. It's simply good marketing to assert that you question evolutionary thought but are not religiously influenced -- "look, even scientists are coming around to our point of view" -- but it is bad marketing to openly promote a POV that will not resonate with your target audience.

Furthermore, I find your assertion that critics of evolutionary thought are "labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States" highly questionable. First, persecution of accused communists in the US was openly promoted by the government and organized and coordinated by the FBI (domestic) and CIA (abroad). If the current US administration voices any opinion on the evolution vs. creationism debate, it seems more likely that they would endorse creationism, or acknowledge that there is a "legitimate controversy."

Scientists, on the other hand, are reacting to a very real and present threat that regional school policies will be successfully influenced by the heavily funded lobbyists of the religious right. Modern creationism is not a "grass-roots movement", it is an integral part of the fundamentalist agenda. I'm not aware of any legitimate criticisms that have fallen victim to this ongoing battle, but if there are any, it is the creationists who are to blame -- they have made the attempt to bring religion into the classroom and to erode the separation of church and state, the responses by biologists and cosmologists are merely a reaction to that threat of irrationalism and theocracy. There is no such parallel in the persecution of communists. --Eloquence 02:58 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< I find your assertion that critics of evolutionary thought are "labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States" highly questionable. >>

Point of order: There is no love lost between me and the Fundamentalist Christians who seek to promote their religious values by impeaching the legitimacy of the Theory of Evolution, and careful reading of my post will reveal that I have no pity for such people. However, I do not think that Richard Milton falls into this category, and -- wrong as Milton may be -- I do not think that he deserves the same contempt that one might reserve for a modern day William Jennings Bryan.

On this note, leading the charge against Milton is none other than Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene, one of the most controversial books ever to be published on the subject of the Theory of Evolution. To wit, it has been apparent since at least the 1970s that genes are not evolutionary units, at least not in any functional sense, no matter how one defines genes. And if there is such a thing as a "selfish gene," it would be synonymous with an oncogene.

Rather than respond to the criticism of anti-evolutionists such as Milton, Dawkins sees fit to poison the well by labeling Milton a creationist with a religous agenda, and he ain't. He just ain't. -- NetEsq 05:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Do you mean that the evolutionists should argue their facts rather than attack their critics personally? I would agree. However, I must admit that, if I were Dawkins, I would find it very hard to ignore how Biblical the chapter titles of Milton's book sound. "Rock of Ages"? Come on. I know that the only time I personally use that phrase is to evoke the Bible or the hymn. In fact, I would never use that phrase in polite society--because I would know that everybody would feel the presence of the Big Bad God of the Creationists breathing down their backs. Thanks for bringing Milton's book to my attention again. I enjoyed looking it over again.

Your story reminds me of William Jennings Bryan who, on some break in the Scopes trial said to a reporter, "I am more interested in the Rock of Ages than I am in the age of rocks." Well, when Milton gives the title "Rock of Ages" to the chapter that criticizes the evolutionists radiocarbon dating methods, that sounds very suspicious to me. Maybe I am jumping to a verdict of guilty by association, but I would bet that Milton is as much of a creationist as Billy Graham or Elmer Gantry. I'm not sure either of them actually believe those fairytales either, but they make it sound convincing. I haven't heard Elmer Gantry in a while; is he still around? Thanks for having fun with me in all these arguments. ;)) Rednblu 06:42 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I suppose I'm just being obnoxious pointing it out but, "Rocks of Ages" was, of course, an interesting little book by Stephen Jay Gould, in which he seeks to point out a principled course toward avoiding conflict between theologians and scientists, through mutual respect. Although he provides his own reasons for doubting that he is a believer, he provides no reason to doubt his sincerity. Mkmcconn 07:14 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Stephen Jay Gould, God rest his soul, was one of the most principled opponents of creation science. In one interview I saw on PBS, Gould expressed great personal frustration with the tactics employed by anti-evolutionists with a religious agenda, but never did he resort to poisoning the well or other ad hominem rants when disproving specious arguments. In fact, my deep respect for Stephen Jay Gould is based upon his book The Mismeasure of Man, in which he takes on the advocates of scientific racism with the same academic poise.

The bottom line is that there are many laypersons -- and scientists -- who just don't get it when it comes to topics like evolutionary biology, but dismissing all critics of the Theory of Evolution as religious zealots when they are not in fact religious zealots only gives greater credence to the religious zealots. -- NetEsq 14:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I agree. In regard to Mkm's comment, personally, I guess I put too much weight on the "realistic content" of the argument. I guess I just read too quickly by the "Rock of Ages" part of Gould's title and fall upon the "Science and Religion" part of the title. I guess I am not fair when I read Milton's text that I feel like the important part of the evolutionist argument is ignored. Milton's text feels like tearing down something that seems to me to have a lot of validity without providing me with some enticing alternative. I am supposed to jump to my own alternative explanation just by the context somehow. I too easily imagine myself looking around at all the other readers of Milton's text and I can too easily see them nodding. I too easily imagine that they are nodding becuase they are jumping to the alternative explanation of--creationism.

Am I being unfair? It seems to me that Milton spends the whole book finding fault with the evolutionists' methods, like rock dating methods. But I can't find Milton's alternative methods for interpreting the data. Does he give the alternative explanations for explaining

I give you an example of Milton's words: "Because radioactive dating methods are scientifically unreliable, it is at present impossible to say with any confidence how old the Earth is." [1] That kind of reasoning triggers my mechanisms of suspicion which are not very fair, but I would have preferred if Dawkins had been a little more polite and artistic in expressing his outrage. I would have suggested that Dawkins would have read Cyrano de Bergerac to see how Cyrano expressed artfully his outrage verbally before he sliced the insulter to ribbons with his sword.

In contrast, I think that you and I, sir, could write a book that would get the reader to tangle with the problem--figuring out where we came from--not just jump to their favorite myth that avoids the problem. Rednblu 15:10 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thanks to all, for toning down the conversation to a decent level of civility and politeness. It's much easier to follow the thread(s) when there's a dearth of invective.

Now, how about the "creationism vs. evolution" issue, in regards to government-run public schools in America? Should that issue be in the creationism article -- or what?

Somewhere in the Wikipedia, there should be an article outlining the viewpoints of the various groups who want:

children to be indoctrinated with the belief that God created all people, animals, etc.
children to be indoctrinated with the beleif that people, animals, etc. simply "came into being" without God -- or without God needing to intervene, which is slightly different but actually a major legal point
children to make up their own minds on the issue, based on scientific evidence alone (or scientific evidence combined with their religious beliefs).

You can all probably guess where I personally stand on the creationism vs. evolution controversy. Yet the issue of what I (or you) want the US government and state governments to encourage children to believe is another, separate matter. I don't actually want the goverment to indoctrinate children with my own church's views (that possibly violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). On the other hand, I don't want goverments indoctrinating children to reject religious views (that certainly violates the Free Speech and Freedom of Religion clauses).

So, where do we go from here, fellows? --Uncle Ed 14:47 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Do you think we could some up with an organization of the pages that would allow the creationists to make their statement without being interrupted in each sentence by the evolutionists' rebuttal? It seems to me that the structure of the Evolution page does it pretty well--by keeping the rebuttal to one or two short paragraphs. There is a lot of invective that should be shunted to some other page, such as the Creationism versus Evolutionism page into which the scientific rebuttals on the current Creationism page could be moved. And maybe the invective would follow to that page. Rednblu 15:17 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Being "interrupted" is part of NPOV, writing one-sided articles is not. Ed, the teaching of evolution is not "indoctrination" -- it is exactly option 3 you propose, based on scientific evidence alone. The creationists have no scientific evidence to support their case, so instead they constantly repeat long-refuted pseudoscientific arguments. This has no place in the classroom. If a religion is incompatible with scientific thought, then so much worse for that religion. To argue that it is unconstitutional to only present scientific arguments on a subject that has nothing to do with religion is preposterous -- by the same logic you could argue that the theory of gravity should be balanced with "alternative views" because these guys think they can fly in the air if they concentrate hard enough. --Eloquence 15:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

*applause* :-) -- Tarquin 17:32 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Being "interrupted" is part of NPOV? I suggest that even you do not find that to be true. If you peruse /Archive 3, you can can see what continual interruption does to the statements that you made. If the "rebuttal" is made to every line, it is difficult to see what point-of-view is being rebutted. And I suggest that the current Evolution page provides a workable template. There are still a few creationist rebuttals in the Evolution page that should be moved somewhere else--just so the reader can get what the evolutionists are saying. Rednblu 15:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is an entirely different matter and purely related to article writing style. Of course every statement does not need to be answered in the same sentence, but it should be answered in the same article. As I have already explained, the evolution article reflects the current state of scientific thought -- this can be quite easily formally defined; as the statistics presented in this article demonstrate, virtually nobody in the actual relevant scientific fields questions evolutionary biology. The article here is about political pressure groups who present themselves as scientific, but are actually not part of the scientific establishment. From a scientific POV, they are a fringe group, just like the Flat Earthers. However, you have already made quite clear that you find it non-neutral to discuss all Flat Earth arguments in Flat Earth. I don't believe anybody but yourself subscribes to that interpretation of NPOV. By your logic, we will soon have:

Flat vs. Spherical Earth controversy

Gravity vs. Yogic Flying controversy

Laws of thermodynamics vs. perpetual motion machine controversy

Unicorn existence controversy. --Eloquence 15:59 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Now that you have had your tantrum, shall we discuss how we shall proceed in developing an actual NPOV approach to significant controversies? Rednblu 16:05 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You think that was a tantrum? You have much to learn, young padawan. As I have explained several times, the article is NPOV. What it lacks is a larger section devoted to the scientific issues with more and better presented arguments. If you want to help to improve this article, summarize some of the most important FAQs from the talk.origins site. Should the section get too long eventually, we can talk again about separating it from the main article. Right now, this is not an option. --Eloquence 16:14 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Rednblu 16:20 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< So, where do we go from here, fellows? >>

Given my druthers, I'd leave this article to the tender mercies of Eloquence, as I agree in spirit with the assertion that creation science/creationism is the bane of public education and legitimate scientific inquiry. Moreover, without the context of the Theory of Evolution, there would not be an article on creation science/creationism. The same thing cannot be said about the Theory of Evolution: It stands on its own two feet.

During my college days, I encountered quite a few religious zealots who were anthropology majors, and it was rather intriguing to see them write long, drawn out, technical expositions of the mechanisms of biological evolution, then finish their essays with, "Of course, I only wrote this paper because I want a good grade. Everyone knows that the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of crap. The true story of creation is found in the Book of Genesis in the King James Version of the Bible."

In other words, if parents want their children to learn creation science/creationism in lieu of and/or in addition to the Theory of Evolution, there is no shortage of parochial schools in the United States that will be happy to accomodate them, and these schools will do a very good job of insulating impressionable young minds from the dangers, be they real or imagined, of secular science. -- NetEsq 16:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree with the content of what you say. But when you operate a public arena from your strongly-held opinions, you do nothing better than fifteenth century church censorship. You are ignoring that there are valid views quite different from what you call "legitimate scientific inquiry." Rednblu 16:18 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Interruptions: It takes imagination to write these interruptions into a flowing narrative. I worry about seeming to flatter Eloquence, but I think he did a good job of organizing the material into an encyclopedic treatment of the debate, instead of a transcript of the argument. That pattern should be upheld. Mkmcconn \

Education: just to review the obvious (but it will not directly help this article). Within the creationst communities themselves, the priority of issues is in this order 1) Belief in God through 2) belief in the word of God for the sake of 3) training their children to escape the insanity of the world, to 4) make their children useful to the kingdom of God and a benefit to the world. In order to put these goals to work, they need 5) knowledge of the world. Education that consists of of the lowest 1/5 of their priorities, is useless to their purposes. They cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. Finally, these are essentially the same priorities that the Catholics have; and the fact the majority accept evolution does not change the fact that 4/5 of what they think is important, cannot be mentioned in a public school classroom. The difference is, that Catholics, due to their more stable institution, have a greater range of educational choices. And now, conservative Muslims and Sikhs are entering the picture. We are facing a situation in which public schools do not teach, even in the most general terms, what most people think is most important in education. And this would not be so bad, except that a growing number feel that the schools are, in fact, indoctrinating their children to be hostile to their parental influences. Mkmcconn 16:21 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree completely that the evolutionists are not fair in how they treat those whose highest priority is "Belief in God." Rednblu 16:35 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< You are ignoring that there are valid views quite different from what you call "legitimate scientific inquiry." >>

I'm not ignoring it, although that is a valid concern. Rather, I am expressing my own viewpoint in re the consequences of appeasing creation scientists/creationists. (I.e., "Given my druthers . . .") Ultimately, I defer to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, and I think that creation science/creationism should be discussed with the same sort of dispassionate academic demeanor observed by scholars such as Stephen Jay Gould. And for all his clear, obvious -- and eminently *rational* -- bias against creation science/creationism, I think that Eloquence has repeatedly demonstrated a keen understanding of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.

That may or may not be. We shall see. But if what you say is true, then Wikipedia's NPOV policy is NOT NPOV, as is manifested by the current Creationism page vandalism of what creationism is. Rednblu 17:02 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [Members of creationist communities] cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. >>

You are preaching to the choir, but this is an issue that is ancillary to this article. One solution that has been proposed is funding parochial schools with tuition vouchers, a solution that is almost as controversial as the subject currently being debated. -- NetEsq 16:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

But it may not be a tangent from the issue, to refer to the conflation of naturalism with evolution, as an important factor in understanding this debate. Creationists have resorted to arguments of subterfuge, because they percieve that in education, evolution is a subterfuge: an insidious purpose in a respectable disguise. I don't know if this helps the article, but I think it's not off-topic. Mkmcconn 16:59 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not necessarily off-topic, but an ancillary issue, and probably better suited for the Creationism vs. Evolution controversy article. -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree that the struggle over American public school education is at the heart of the phenomenon of creationism in America. I think that is a good insight. In fact, I would say that the struggle over American public school education is just another replay with modern scientific weapons the struggle between Epicureanism and creationism back in the days before any of the speciations of the Catholic Church or progeny. So what would be a NPOV presentation of that struggle that has taken on many what you call "disguises." Rednblu 17:13 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<<[I]f what you say is true, then Wikipedia's NPOV policy is NOT NPOV. >>

True enough. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is not aptly named. In fact, Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires a balanced presentation of noteworthy biased viewpoints. To wit, "The vast majority of scientists reject creation science as pseudo science, and this is why. . . ." -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And I have no personal interest in turning the Wikipedia NPOV policy into an actual NPOV policy. I am fascinated by the vehement evangelism hiding under that Wikipedia "NPOV" policy. So, in the spirit of discovering what is under that vehemnt evangelism, I propose that the Creationism page should take on at least the actual NPOV of the Evolution page. That is, the rebuttal in the Creationism page should be confined to one paragraph containing a summary of the main rebuttal points, with a link to another page of the detailed line-by-line blood letting between the barbarians' views and what the majority of ___s say. Rednblu 17:37 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What has happened here is that the evolutionists have established an official censorship over the content of the Creationism page to prevent the development of a NPOV page that explains what creationism is.

So I propose the development of a NPOV page on creationism away from the current powers of the evolutionist censors. For example, we could start a NPOV page on creationism at User:Rednblu/Creationism. Alternatively, you might start a NPOV page on creationism under your own LogonId. We will maintain a link at the top of this page to where the actual NPOV development is occurring.

I am curious to see what an actual NPOV page on creationism would say.

Before you participate in such a revolutionary act, I suggest that you consider what participation in this project will cost you when the evolutionist censors come after you. Rednblu 12:16 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Anybody who throws around terms like "evolutionist censors" does not really appear to be interested in NPOV. And any links on this page to the user namespace will be deleted. This isn't censorship but standard Wikipedia protocol that separates the user from the article namespace. Let's all concentrate our best efforts on this article instead of forking things. --mav 19:40 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Interesting and symptomatic response.

Clearly this page, being Talk:Creationism, is a talk page, and, like most talk pages is hardly ever NPOV.

Furthermore, this page, being Talk:Creationism, is a talk page, and, like most talk pages will accept any links to the user namespace, as in, for example, if you hadn't noticed, the link to User:Maveric149 that the system inserts in place of the 4~s that you put at the end of your "interesting" response above. Rednblu 04:31 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think what mav said was unintentionally ambiguous, but if I read him correctly, I think when he said "this" page, he was referring to the actual article Creationism and not the current page, i.e. not Talk:Creationism. Let's all keep cool and not jump to conclusions, we can all work together. --Lexor 05:00 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What Lexor said. -- NetEsq 05:44 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Stop it, Rednblu; please, just stop it. You are driving me crazy with your rants about NPOV, and calling Maveric "diseased" (via your Bartleby link) is the last straw.

We don't need seven different articles on creationism. All we need is one article, explaining what creationists believe and why. How much opposition should be in the article, and how that opposition should be organized, is all we should be discussing here.

Of course, I disagree with Eloquence and Tarquin on the issue itself, but the reason they trust me (and miss me when I take vacations!) is that I consistently try to approach every topic neutrally and treat each contributor with respect.

I beg you to join me in placing civility #1 on your list, as well as to come to a better understanding of what "neutral" means in terms of Wikipedia articles. --Uncle Ed 14:17 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)