Talk:Washington, D.C./Archive 1

There really should be a map of USA with Washington,D.C. highlighted. How could anyone now where it is? I think that the city is in north-east, but I'm not sure.

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An event mentioned in this article is an August 24 selected anniversary.

Origin of "Columbia"

Can anybody explain why it is called "District of Columbia"? What does it have to do with Columbia? - sanders_muc

From Columbia:

Columbia shouldn't be confused with Colombia... The name "Columbia" is/was a poetic name for the United States of America, which largely fell out of use in the early 20th century.

Does that help? –Hajor 05:22, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The name "Columbia" is derived from Christopher Columbus, and was pretty popular throughout the country for a while. I believe the naming of Columbia University was part of this trend, was the Columbian Exposition, etc. --Dablaze 17:15, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

Maps

I can help with this maps for Washington, DC as I work for the city of Washington in the GIS section. We make maps, and do spatial analysis. Any requests let me know.

Merge with DC article

This page should be merged with District of Columbia. - 13:44, 30 Sep 2002 . . Ram-Man

District of Columbia 22:34, 7 Nov 2002 . . Ram-Man (merged everything to Washington, District of Columbia) - Recording merge. - Patrick 10:04, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Becoming a state?

I heard somwhere that DC has now and then thought of becoming a state. Is this true? - fonzy

There is a fairly strong movement for DC statehood among the 'intellegentsia' of the city, and they have gotten a DC statehood slogan printed on the district license places (taxation without representation, I think ?).

Oops, the article already covers this :)

Oversight board

In the late 90's Congress appointed an oversight board, which took control to some degree over the government, with the intention of imposing fiscal reform. This ought to be mentioned in the historical notes section, I suggest.

Metro area reference

So why does the metro area reference deliberately use backwards terminology ? "Washington-Baltimore Metropolitan Area" Truly I cannot guess :)

When the metro area was defined by the Census Bureau as a CMSA, it was named with DC first because Washington is bigger (and, the theory went, more important). I remember some minor controversy about it at the time. Many people tend to get the order confused because their speech patterns are set by BWI airport. Remes 21:10, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sites of interest

The Old Post Office probably ought to be on the (sites of interest) list, at least if this is the wikipedia tourism guide, because it provides a spectacular view from the bell tower :)

yes ive been there before. (although the tourgide sucked) Greenmountainboy 22:24, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hey, its in now! Maybe you added it :)

The quadrants=

The article states,

The district is divided into four "quadrants," North East, South East, North West and ostensibly South West. The latter does not really exist, as it was ceded to Virginia...

While the remaining area of Southwest isn't very large, it certainly exists. That area south of The Mall and west of South Capitol St. (e.g. Waterfront, Bolling AFB) is pretty substantial. Gyrofrog 05:32, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I fixed it. Thanks for the heads up. :) --Golbez 06:04, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Uhm, doublecheck a map, there is a Southwest quadrent; it's much smaller than the rest of the quadrents, but it exists.

Technically on the image that is shown that quadrant boundaries are incorrect. As the qaudrants really run along the streets (East Capital St, North Capital Street and South Capitol Streeet) and curve.

You are correct.

The new image shows the quadrants as they run along the Capitol streets.

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I just reverted a couple changes because they were incorrect. First, the city of Washington and its suburbs may be referred to as "the Washington area" but never simply "Washington," and residents simply use "DC" for the metro area in contrast with "the District" for the city of Washington. I've never heard anyone say just "Washington" when they mean the Maryland or Virginia suburbs, but DC is used for that all the time. Second, the Department of Defense is not an independent agency. It is a Department of the Executive Branch. Postdlf 07:08, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I changed "DC" to "Washington" as a reference to the area because as a 10-year resident of the Washington area I have never heard the term "DC" used to refer to anything but the District while "Washington" is often used to refer to the region although "Washington area" is most often used to avoid ambiguity. This makes sense since "the District of Columbia" refers to a real legal entity with specific boundaries while "Washington" does not. Eg. the former "Washington National Airport" which is actually in Virginia.

You're correct about the Defense Dept. Polynova

First pic in DC article

I think the aerial view of Washington DC should be the first pic, with the satellite photo in the geography section. WhisperToMe 19:27, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Be bold. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:58, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)

Wikipedia screwup

For some reason the first link in the "Demographics" section seemingly can't be made to work. If you know what's wrong, please help. Thanks! 82.82.142.209 22:08, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Done. The external site link right before it in the previous section was missing a bracket. Postdlf 23:49, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Economy

Nice update. !!!!!!!!!

Washington Ave.

There is a Washington Ave just southwest of the Capitol: Yahoo! Map.

I removed the reference to it not existing. Can someone verify that all 50 states have namesake streets? I suspect that this is true but can't be sure. Ohio has Ohio Drive, but no avenue I believe. Polynova 02:23, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There are 48 state avenues, one state drive (Ohio Drive in West Potomac Park), and one state street (California Street in Kalorama / Adams-Morgan.) There is also a Puerto Rico Avenue near CUA. --Browncat 04:54, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

100 mi²

The article previously read, "It was initially 100 mi² (260 km²)." This isn't accurate. DC is 10 mi. on each side but the original boundaries had the City of Alexandria cut out of it which was never part of D.C. If someone knows the actual original size of the city, could they please add this info to the article. Polynova 00:55, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I always had it in my mind while living there that it was 64 sq.mi. --Golbez 04:45, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Alexandria was part of the District from 1801 (when Congress formally accepted the land Virginia ceded for the federal district) to 1847 (when the Virginia portions of the District were retroceded to Virginia). The City of Alexandria wasn't part of the District only because it wasn't chartered as a city until 1852, after retrocesion. Carter 15:20, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I thought (trying to recall my history of washington education here; been ages, could be wrong) that the District never really claimed Alexandria; it was ceded land in both Maryland and Virginia, but never really took on the Virginia land, and simply returned it later on. The original plan was 100 sqmi, but I question if it actually ever took on that size. --Golbez 16:54, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Alexandria and Georgetown were preëxisting towns within the land ceded for the District; they along with Washington City (the new federal city layed out by l'Enfant), Washington County and Alexandria County made up the 10 mi². The Virginia side wasn't built up as part of the federal district (which is part of why it was returned to Virginia), but it was taken under the control of Congress. The stone boundry markers deliniating the original District are in place on the Virginia side of the river, the same as they are on the Maryland side. Carter 17:12, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Okey dokey. I always forget that towns (like Georgetown) actually existed within DC before it became the monolith it is today. --Golbez 17:29, Oct 8, 2004 (U

Presidential politics

Any particular reason why D.C. is so overwhelmingly Democrat? I mean, Kerry got nearly 90% of the vote here.... Evercat 18:32, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's a company town. That company is the government. And Democrats grow the government. Furthermore, it's 60% black, which is over 4x the proportion of the general population, and blacks tend to vote Democrat. It's also very poor in many areas. Why does any major urban area go overwhelmingly Democrat? --Golbez 18:47, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

However, to go SO MUCH (90%) in favor of the Democrat IS odd, and I don't know why. --Golbez 22:00, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

I have to question your logic. Under Bush the government has grown faster than any other recent administration. If I was a government bureaucrat who wanted to keep my job, I would have gone with Bush. The highly educated tend to be Democrats, and DC Metro area has the highest ratio of residents with BAs, MAs and doctorates. Most of the long-term residents are blacks, who have been Democrat since the Civil Rights movement, and poor. The non-Black population actually within the District tends to be young (lots of students, young idealists and politicos looking to get a start in a career), since the older folk have more money and live in the suburbs where they can afford their own houses. BanyanTree 04:44, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You are welcome to question one aspect of my logic, and then parrot everything else I said. :) --Golbez 06:55, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

I was just a bit confused when you stated reasons why DC votes Democrat, and then asked why DC votes Democrat, so figured repeating your points might convince you.  :) Anyway, going along with john's point below, according to the numbers on the USA Today page, San Francisco County went for Kerry with 80%, King County (Seattle) with 65%, DeKalb Country (metro Atlanta) with 72%, Cook County (Chicago) with 70%, etc. Given the points we keep repeating about how DC's differences make it more Democratic than other urban areas, 90% is remarkable but not inconceivable. BanyanTree 07:50, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Note that Manhattan, which is very considerably whiter than DC (Manhattan is 55% white, as opposed to 28% in DC), votes nearly as overwhelmingly Democratic as DC does. Philadelphia, which is 45% white, is also overwhelmingly Democratic (80%, I think, this year). Boston is 58% white and voted 78% for Kerry. DC is somewhat more Democratic than these places because it has a considerably higher minority population. The question of why all large northeastern cities vote overwhelmingly Democratic is rather a broader one, no? john k 06:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Merging from District of Columbia (geography)

I'm going to begin merging District of Columbia (geography) into this article. I'm going to move the Physical Geography section across, delete the Neighborhoods section (placing it here for reference) and replace it with the District of Columbia (geography) Municipal geography section.

Finally, I'll put a notice on the source page that it is being merged into Washington, DC Geography Section. That will leave on the source page the intro paragraph, the history section, and External Links.

Neighborhoods (old subsection)

Washington includes many distinct and historic neighborhoods:

16th Street Heights Adams Morgan American Univesity Park Anacostia Bellevue Benning Ridge Brentwood Brightwood Brightwood Park Brookland Burleith Capitol Hill Eastern Market Barracks Row Chevy Chase Chinatown Cleveland Park

Columbia Heights Crestwood Deanwood Dupont Circle Eckington Foggy Bottom Forest Hills Foxhall Crescents Foxhall Village Friendship Heights Georgetown Glover Park Hawthorne Hillcrest Hill East Kalorama Heights Kingman Park Le Droit Park

Logan Circle Manor Park Michigan Park Mount Pleasant Near Northeast Near Southeast The Palisades Penn Quarter Petworth Shepherd Park Shaw Swampoodle Takoma Tenleytown Trinidad Wesley Heights West End Woodley Park

Done. I've moved the source page's External Links to become a subsection of Geography. Perhaps it should be a subsection of External links (eg External Links/Geography). The Neighborhood list needs some beautifying, but I'll let people review these changes first.

Considering that "Washington, D.C" is already quite large, is it really advisable to merge the geography material back iknto the main article? Why not just rename District of Columbia (geography) to Washington, D.C. geography? —choster 19:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Requested Move discussion

The following discussion was held on WP:RM.

Washington, DC → Washington, D.C.

• Move to standard rendering of name. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality/^talk]] 01:50, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
• That's a tough one. Standard according to whom? The postal abbreviation is DC, and people would probably rather see "New York, NY" than "New York, N.Y.", and certainly not "Tampa, F.L." But, of course, D.C. is also an initialism, and not merely a postal abbreviation. Can you cite a reference that states the D.C. is considered the official nomenclature? --Golbez 19:54, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • Most people who follow style manuals and prefer formal usage would rather see New York, N.Y. Omitting the periods from state abbreviations is questionable usage; Chicago Manual of Style permits it for D.C. now (whereas dropping them was formerly unacceptable), but this is controversial. I don't know where the traditional state and territory abbreviations are recorded in law (or even if they ever were put into law), but they date to an era when dropping the periods simply was not done at all in English. It's essentially a question of following trendy, business- and military-style usage (no periods) or adhering to the traditional formal usage (with periods). (There is, BTW, no F.L.; the traditional text abbreviation is Fla., while the postal code is FL.) —Tkinias 08:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Intuitively, I'd agree, but the official District of Columbia government site at http://www.dc.gov/ consistently uses "DC," even in non-postal contexts. --LostLeviathan 02:26, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Agree with move. DC stands for District of Columbia, as a former resident of the city, it was always "D.C." as taught in school growing up. Alkivar 02:42, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Agree. D.C. is the abbreviation; DC is the postal code. It is common in sloppy usage to substitute postal codes for the traditional abbreviations (and, unfortunately, Federal Government Web sites are not known for their good usage of the English language). It's a bit like U.S.—dropping the periods just isn't acceptable in formal usage, even if one writes, for example, NATO. —Tkinias 08:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. While "D.C." is the correct abbreviation, common usage overrides correctness. Dictionaries do not tell us how to use a word; they tell us how the word has been used in the past, and what the most common usage was at the time the dicitonay was written. Language, though, is more fluid and dynamic than anything written. So, while "D.C." may be correct, it has fallen out of favor and has been supplanted by the more common "DC". - UtherSRG 14:51, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

I hope not many people who work on this encyclopedia really believe that a modern dictionary doesn't provide help on proper usage of a word, or that common slang usage trumps proper usage. After all, is this supposed to be the Gettopedia or a free Brittanica-style encyclopedia? —Mike 22:12, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I don't see the traditionally correct form "Washington, D.C." as having been "supplanted". Here on wikipedia there are many hundreds of articles which link to the traditional form. Jonathunder 22:54, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
• Support. Common usage is so close to the correct form that it will not confuse. Timrollpickering 13:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Support. D.C. is the correct form, and I don't think DC is so hugely popular that it should be given preference. Wrong is wrong, even if it's popular, and I really don't think it's that much more popular than D.C. Beginning 19:28, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. For reasons previously given by others. —Mike 22:12, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. DC is ever-increasingly common, and I don't think it can be considered "wrong", and Wikipedia policy clearly has common usage a dominent factor ?(Naming conventions). If dead-tree dictionaries actually reflected current usage 100%, they would have accepted "their" as a gender neutral pronoun long ago. Wikipedia also routinely uses US and UK instead of U.S. and U.K., also reflecting common usage. I have worked as a writer, and am very careful to write differently in different contexts (i.e. my emails are full of things like "enuf" and "tho'", but I'd never use those in formal correspondance, and thus not in Wikipedia articles). But I do use DC, US, and UK in Wikipedia articles. If it's good enough for the "Washington, DC Convention and Tourism Corporation"[1], I think it's good enough for Wikipedia. Most of the arguments for "D.C." are the same as for "New York, New York", but the article has been moved to the very informal/slangy "New York City". Move NY back, and I'll drop my opposition. Niteowlneils 05:50, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons I stated above. If the DC government says it's DC ( http://www.dc.gov/ ), and common usage is roughly split, then we absolutely must keep the name as DC. One would expect the popular usage to gravitate toward the government usage over time. Furthermore, if one does a Google search for "Washington, D.C." (this search actually allows either D.C. or DC, because of Google's parsing) the first several results (including the official tourism site http://www.washington.org/ ) use DC, both inside and outside of postal contexts. --LostLeviathan 21:20, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Yet another pointless quibble about orthography. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:33, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Becuase it's the correct way. Nelson Ricardo 18:40, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose after the fact. I belive that this is a bad move, if we are going to start "dotting" DC then we mine as well do it for every other state, country and territory out their. I dont thinkt its a matter of it being "proper usage" as it is whats used in the modern lexicon of language today. Also if we are going to start doing this, it pratically says that every anagram should be "dotted" as well. I would support a motion that would revert it back to the more common usage of DC then the cunt form that it is in. And for those that consider it slang, the use od DC, then we should just really go to the official name, City of Washington, District of Columbia.--Boothy443 23:57, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Anonymous users are not able to vote. Neutrality^talk 23:51, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose after the fact as well. For all the reasons articulated by others above. - B Sveen

Diagonal avenues & nicknames

This statement: " the avenues provided a method of defense with good sightlines if the city should ever come under siege or invasion from a foreign power" sounds apocryphal me. Wouldn't broad straight avenues be advantageous to an invading power? They didn't seem to thwart the British in the War of 1812. A likelier explanation is that L'Enfant was immitating the broad avenues of Paris like the Champs-Élysées. If I remember Les Misérables correctly, the revolutionary government cut these wide avenues to add rationality to a chaotic, medieval street layout and to prevent people from barricading the streets. I think I remember hearing that for these long, straight streets gave Washington the nickname the "City of the Long Vista" or "View". Does anyone really call it that? What about "City of Trees," another supposed nickname that I've heard? So many questions. --Polynova 02:35, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

L'Enfant indeed mimicked Paris with his layout, and I've never heard of the defense notion, and I agree, it would seem that broad avenues would assist an attack, not a defense. --Golbez 04:42, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Huh- I'd always thought Paris wasn't really Paris until Napoleon III and Hausmann - it was like a typical old European city with narrow streets and allies and all that. Which would be well after L'Enfant's time. Washington was definitely influenced by Paris, but I'd suggest that this comes a lot more from the later 19th century, when most of the current city was actually built, than to L'Enfant. But I'm not sure on this. john k 05:30, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The chap who initially mentioned that said that Versailles might have been a more accurate inspiration; what do you think about that, is that more possible? --Golbez 14:41, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

• Remember, it is important to see the city at this time through the eyes of a 18th Century person, especially in a nation that had just emerged from a war of independence from its mother-land. In 18th century military terms, it was easier to use broad sight lines. When fighting a battle in a strict grid (city layout), it is difficult to move defenses into place AND maintain a strategic eye on the surrounding area. Think about it - this is why the best forts used bastions (diamond shaped projections), not perfect square or or round towers which have blind spots that the enemy can hid in. Angled Avenues perform that same function as Bastions by increasing site lines. [Fort Adams (Rhode Island) defining Bastion]

• As for Polynova's comment on the sight lines not helping in the British invasion during the war of 1812, that would because their was a belief that if the British were going to attack, they would attack Baltimore because it held greater riches than Washington, which at the time wasn't a growing and thriving place - So the city wasn't prepared for the invasion.[[User:Stude62|"[[user:<stude62>|" and "]]".]] 19:51, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good enough for me. :) --Golbez 20:06, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Height limit?

I've always heard that the height limit is a gentleman's agreement; yes, the tallest buildings in the district are 10-13 floors, but this means most people assume that no building may be taller than the US Capitol. In fact, the way I've heard it, the law actually states no building may be taller than the Washington Monument, and simply that no one has decided to be the first to build taller than the Capitol. There are several hundred feet difference between the Capitol and the Monument, so this is a major difference.

Has anyone else heard this? --Golbez 05:06, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

This is a widely believed urban legend. Before skyscrapers, no legal height limit was necessary of course. When the Cairo apt. building on Q street was built, local were shocked by its height. I think it's about 13 stories tall. Emergency legislation went into place that limited all new buildings to about 11 or 12 stories. This law is still in place with few modifications. The actual height limit varies depending on the width of the street the building is on, but it is always much lower than the Capitol. Because of the varying elevations in the city, many buildings rise well above the Capitol, but that building is by far the tallest, not counting the Wash. Monument of course. Considering the value of downtown office space, no gentleman's agreement would keep a developer from building a 100-story building if the law allowed it. --Polynova 15:40, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying it. I think the tallest building, by pure altitude, in the city, other than the monument, is the National Cathedral, but I could be wrong. --Golbez 18:48, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

In his book Best Addresses, James Goode discusses the issue of height, going back to the Cairo. But I must add that part of the concern at the time was not height, but fire safety; the District couldn't guarentee sufficient water-pressure and equpiment necessary to fight a fire in overtly tall buildings. Some Apartments built from the 1920's on use the technique of a "sunken" lobby in order to squeeze out an additional floor - the lobby isn't in the first floor in many of these building, but rather on the ground floor (and in some cases, its called the "terrace" level!).

[[User:Stude62|"[[user:<stude62>|" and "]]".]] 19:33, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Omissions in History section

The History section has no mention of emancipation, desegregation, or the riots of 1968. These are major events in the history of D.C. which should be in this article. Is anyone familiar enough with these topics to write about them? --Polynova 00:30, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

I think the history section about the War of 1812 could really be more in depth, specifically about the US retaking the city, if anyone is knowledgeable. Tkessler 02:52, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the Americans did retake the city, did they? Rather, the British Army simply left--it was a raid, not an invasion. Certainly the language of the article as is--giving specific starting and ending dates for the "expedition"--seems to me to imply that at the end of the given period, the British simply marched out.Binabik80 05:00, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Binabik80 is right; the British marched in, burned the place, and then retreated. There was no occupation or retaking of the city. See Burning of Washington Carter 14:35, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Censorship on wiki. No murder mention for DC

Wash. DC is also the murder capital of USA. Avg. life expectancy of afro male population is 44.2 years due to gun violence. Three blocks from the White House there are daily shoot-outs and security on public streets is non-existent. Wash DC is as bad in crime as Johannesburg in South Africa.

None of these facts are mentioned in the Wiki article, which is an obvious case of censorship. Great shame.

Why don't you add the statistics yourself?

I'm no defender of Washington but incidentally, it doesn't have a lock on the title of "murder capital." Detroit, Baltimore, Memphis, and Chicago have all vied for the honor in the last ten years or so. -choster 16:45, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Back in the early 1990s, DC was indeed the murder capital. However, violent crime rate has plummeted in the past 10 years. There are a number of neighborhoods that you couldn't dare me to enter five years ago, but now I would gladly live, work, shop, etc. with little concern about crime. The author of the initial comment is also correct in pointing out that this article was lacking information about crime. There should definitely be some discussion of crime and changes that have taken place in recent years. Thus, I have added a section about crime, beneath the Neighborhoods section. - Kmf164 20:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions, now people can form an up-to-date opinion about the crime issue!

The statistics mentioned in the 'Crime' section really need to be cited. There is an accurate external link for criminal statistics within the District, but there is no citation for any of the numbers mentioned in accordance within neighboring counties, particularly Prince George's. A quick Google search revealed that neither PG County nor the State have up to date statistics available online. Unless these numbers are cited they should be removed. Tkessler 16:01, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Please check out the external links at the end of this article that provide these statistics and more detailed information about crime in the DC area. Kmf164 01:53, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right, I saw those, I was refering to the statistics on crime in areas outside the District (like PG County, which is not mentioned in the District's crime statistics page. Tkessler 04:58, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Information and statistics about 2004 homicides in suburban counties, including PG county, is readily available from the Washington Post in articles, particularly the one cited here. As for the 35 homicides in PG county thusfar in 2005 that someone added to the article - that number definitely sounds accurate as it seems there's a homicide in PG county every other day. I bet you can fact check that number in some recent Washington Post news article. Please feel free to research that and improve upon this part of the article. Kmf164 23:37, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done - changed the PG county number from 35 to 33, with a citation. Good advice ;-) Tkessler 22:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Link to missing image

I removed the foll bec the image was missing. If anyone can find the image or fix the link, please do. "

File:Aerialwashingtondc.png

Aerial photo of Washington, DC

" Nurg 04:57, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Gun Control

What wording do you have in mind?

I'm fine with the article as is. I'm summarizing at the end chronologically what happened. Gun control was passed --> Extremely High crime rates --> Still has high crime rates

That is a neutral comment.

--Nyr14 18:11, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the current phrase:

:'After gun control was passed, crime went up. Despite the gun control in Washington D.C. it still has one of the highest crime rates in the country.'

is very well structured. Perhaps 'Despite Washington's current gun control policies, crime remains high within the city.' More importantly, the preceding paragraphs make exactly the same point, for example:

'Critics of these rules have pointed out that despite these measures , the district continues to have high levels of gun-based violence.'

Thus I think Nyr14's phrase should be removed. Finally, the Gun Control Paragraph describes the 80s crime wave as cocaine-induced, but I think it was really crack-induced (I know that they are similar). Does anyone agree? Tkessler 20:18, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Re: crack vs. cocaine, I believe I've heard that as well--i.e., crack, not cocaine. Meelar (talk) 20:21, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I have to claim the blame for that one — I really shouldn't have written that sentence without educating myself about the difference between cocaine and crack cocaine. Please go ahead and fix it., whoever's in the know. Doops 20:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nyr14, could we please have a source to back up your oft-repeated point that violent crime hasn't declined since the gun control ban? Assuming that you've been claiming this is good faith, I've left it in the article for now; but I'd really feel better with a source. Thanks. Doops 20:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The most restrictive ban in DC is the handgun ban which went fully into effect in 1977 [[2]]. The previous year had 188 murders. Since then, every year except for 1979, had more murders. Almost every other crime has gone up as well.

• Violent crime peaked in 1993 with 16,888 violent crimes.
• Property crime peaked in 1981 with 53,442 property crimes.
• Robbery peaked in 1981 with 10,399 robberies.
• Aggravated assault peaked in 1993 with 9,003 agravated assaults.
• Burglary peaked in 1981 with 16,832 burglaries
• Larceny-theft peaked in 1982 with 33,435
• Motor theft peaked in 1995 with 10,193 thefts of motor vehicles
• Murder peaked in 1991 with 482 murders.

[[3]]

Rape has gone down since 1976. However, it still remains high as there were 273 forcible rapes in 2003. [[4]]

Also, it's not only gun critics that see gun control as having no effect on crime.

I have yet to hear of a murderer who has said, "I guess I can't murder with this gun anymore because using this gun would be against the law."

--Nyr14 21:23, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Well, as long as you're OK with the current revision. That's one article down, one article to go; I invite all interested parties here to go to Talk:National Rifle Association. Meelar (talk) 21:36, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I never said I was alright with it. The current revision says "Nonetheless, opponents of gun control make the point that, when all is said and done, levels of violent crime did not decrease when gun control was put in place."

This is a vast understatement: crime went up; I want to add the stats I cited above, and rewrite the last sentence to say something more like this:

"After gun control was passed, crime went up. Despite the extremely restrictive gun control in Washington D.C. it still has one of the highest crime rates in the country."

Apologies. I've changed "did not decrease" to "peaked after gun control was put in place". Is this better? Meelar (talk) 21:43, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Can we add statistics?

--Nyr14 21:46, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to "Nonetheless, opponents of gun control make the point that, when all is said and done, levels of violent crime peaked in 1993 with 16,888 violent crimes, well after gun control was put in place."

Better? Meelar (talk) 21:52, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

It is better. How about the last sentence being: "Washington D.C. still remains the United States' Murder Capital."

--Nyr14 21:57, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, especially because DC is no longer universally considered the murder capital. Meelar (talk) 22:07, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)