Talk:New Imperialism

What's with all these new links? This looks like a curse. 172 09:49, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Just making sure people can find their way around the talk page archive. Ксйп Cyp 09:55, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The temp page and vote are irrelevant now that the main page is a series/executive summary under the 32 K limit. Lir/PP's version has received no support and belongs on the VFD page, not the main article. 172 21:03, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

According to the Village pump, PP has now left, or at least changed his name, so I'm assuming no-one will be working on that temp page anymore. Therefore, there seems little point in keeping the link. I withdraw my vote for a link. Angela 01:51, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Due to these developments, Lir/PP's temp page was moved to User talk:Pizza Puzzle/New Imperialism (temp)172 07:05, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Imperialism in Asia

Glad to see the renaming of the tautological "New Imperialism and the Scramble for Africa". There's a big problem with the Asia daughter too, though, in that much of it replicates the subject and chronological coverage of the article "Imperialism in Asia" - indeed, the latter paradoxically says more about the post-1858 period in India then does "New Imperialism in Asia", which I realise is still in progress (all the more reason to rectify the anomaly now rather than after further work). The two should be combined in a single "Imperialism in Asia" covering the colonial impact as a whole, without a chronological division which was more real among colonisers than colonised. If this is in danger of being too large (as I suspect will be the case), it should be split between South and East Asia, which begins to better represent the reality of a supercontinent comprising most of the world's population. Graculus 13:54, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Series box == (from archive 11)

The "series box" is too big. Something the size of History of Germany's one would be more appropriate. You don't need details on what's in each sub-article: it should be obvious from the title and the summary. Martin 12:50, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Seconded: it also makes subsequent amendment all the harder: it should be kept basic for the time being, with the possibility of later expansion when it's more final. Graculus 13:19, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I implemented this earlier suggestion. 172 reverted me, saying "there's no need to do this". I suggest that doing this would be a good idea, for the reasons I gave above. I would like 172 to explain why it would not be a good idea, rather than just reverting me out of hand. Thanks. Martin 15:23, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

For the record, I did post an explanation on his talk page. 172 15:33, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

(Yup: I posted the above at the very same minute 172 posted the below to my talk page Martin)

I appreciate that you've been cleaning up the New Imperialism mess, especially the edits involving Scramble for Africa and Colonization of Africa. However, I reverted your work on the series box. Unlike the German history series, consisting of articles about each successive regime in chronological order, the arrangement of this series is less clean cut. So specifying what is included under each daughter articles only makes the series more navigable and less confusing. Although the structure and arrangement of the series will be altered over time by Graculus and I, the subtopics in the series box should stay. There's only a superficial reason to remove the subtopics box anyway 172 15:23, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

To 172: It isn't superficial; to me it's quite fundamental, since according to our very constructive discussions in recent days the structure of the daughters is subject to review. I'm giving lots of things a lot of thought, hence my present absence from the World of Edit. I'm with Martin: let's worry about subtopic[k?]ing the series box when it's final - that way we keep subsidiary issues to a minimum while we're elaborating a satisfactory overall result. I'm not so concerned about the series box going into whatever detail it wants, as that itemisation of its detailed content remains premature at this point (clearly, since you're still developing proposed daughters, and I'd like this to develop further). As I've said repeatedly and you've concurred, the series structure is still up for revision (see my Asia point above): if we keep to essentials now, we'll get there all the faster. Graculus 17:00, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As I've already articulated, the presence of subtopics has a function. Yes, the structures ang arrangement of the daughter articles will be revised. But we can easily change the contents of the boxes when that happens. If you don't want to be troubled with it, I'll be the one to revise the boxes when needed. But right now, the changes haven't been made. I promise to promptly change the boxes when necessary. 172 17:14, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you, 172, that's most agreeable, but on grounds of maximum improvement for least unnnecessary effort (on your part for the time being) I'd rather keep the boxes compact for now, which in no way prejudices their future expansion. Any comments on the "Imperialism in Asia" matter are welcomed (recognising fully that you're still working on it).Graculus 17:25, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll expend the effort to maintain them. After all, it has to be a somewhat navigable series for now, despite the articles all being works in progress. BTW, I'm not sure what you're asking about Imperialism in Asia. 172 17:34, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

See above (feel free to delete heading). Graculus 17:51, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

First, regarding the division of Asia's regions, what would be best? Three daughter articles on Southeast Asia, East Asia, and South Asia? Or two, lumping Southeast Asia with either East Asia or South Asia?

The shift from Company rule to viceroy in 1858 is, by and large, the focus of the South Asia section currently in New Imperialism in Asia. I understand the problem that this poses. 1858 predates the article's periodization of "New Imperialism" (1871-1914), but the shift entailed is important in a New Imperialism series. Currently, the New Imperialism in Asia article lacks anything on Southeast Asia. A new section on French Indochina is a must.

The dividing line between the two articles (Imperialism in Asia and New Imperialism in Asia) is very unclear, posing another major problem. Perhaps we can redirect the Imperialism in Asia to a renamed article that stops its focus after New Imperialism. Right now, China's in both articles. In New Imperialism's article, the focus of the China section, to state it very simply, should be why China retained sovereignty, despite the era's drive toward new crown colonies, protectorates, annexations, etc. If we do this, the pre-New Imperialism article we can deal with the opening of China while the New Imperialism in Asia article can retain its existing content, which explains why China bucked the trend of New Imperialism. 172 18:16, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The creation of the Viceroyalty isn't NI proper: it's a rectification of an older anomaly occasioned by the Mutiny as well as being in some respects a precursor to subsequent approaches, which is why I think it belongs in a continuous article. The China issue similarly merits treatment as a whole, since British action raised issues whose attempted resolution would subsequently highlight crucial limitations in the New imperialist agenda. South-east should go with South Asia, with which historically, culturally and economically it has more in common - it can be hived off if there's more substance later. Graculus 18:47, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The events of 1857-8 in India are more of a precursor of New Imperialism, and the text presented it as that. I just thought that it had a place as backgrounding. But you're right; it should be moved to Imperialism in Asia in place of a sentence or two of backrounding with a link to an article dealing with the end of Company rule. In its place could be content relevant to the post-1870s era.

In addition, China should be treated as a whole in Imperialism in Asia, but the brief section on China currently in New Imperialism in Asia could stay since it deals specifically with the era of concern. Simply put, it clarifies why China wasn't carved up like Africa, which will be of interest to lay readers. Good call on Southeast Asia too. I was leaning toward a separate article, but it could go in a section on South and Southeast Asia.

Finally, what do you think of redirecting Imperialism in Asia to an article that stops its focus in the 1870s? 172 19:09, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I just moved the content on South Asia to Imperialism in Asia, which focuses on the British in India from 1600 to 1949. Now we'll have to work on a new, relevant section in this series. 172 19:23, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm stiill for geographical over chronological subdivision. South and East Asia are in my opinion two geographically and culturally distict subcontinents of the Eurasian landmass, each as entitled to continental rank as the other (and less populous) one, which we think of separately as Europe. I think South-east Asia should for the time being be treated as a part of South Asia (under that title, if it's created), since that's the present UN definition and accords with the the approach appropriate to the present topic. Graculus 19:39, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Lumping China and India into a single section was completely arbitrary. There though should be an article dealing with "South and Southeast Asia." After all, most think of the subcontinent when the term "South Asia" is used, not Southeast Asia.

Geographical divisions of articles are certainly preferable. But how do we deal with South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia specifically in this series? 172 19:54, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)