Talk:Linguistic relativity
A less technical argument is that, for example, Platonists, anti-Platonists, Gnostics, and who know what else, could all explain themselves in Greek. So Greek doesn't tell you much about them.
Above, which ends the article, needs wikifying or removal.
It also reminds me of the idea that some things cannot be translated adequately, because there are ideas which can only be understood in the original language. The Koran is apparently an example of this, if not the chief one. --Ed Poor
This article seems quite anti-SWH, and examples in it are really bad. --Taw
- I got here from feminism, so maybe the author was anti-feminist. I thought the article looked okay, so maybe I have unconscious anti-feminist bias. Feel free to neutralize it. --Ed Poor
I reread the article to see if it had changed recently, but it's pretty stable and pretty much as I remember it, which is quite good (if I must say so, having originated most of it). I simply don't see the anti-SW bias you do: it does--correctly--report that the hypothesis is generally discredited by modern linguists, mostly due to Chomsky's influence. That's simply a fact about modern linguistics. If anything, I think the article goes out of its way to be fair to pro-SW arguments by pointing out that weaker versions have been demonstrated.
Which examples, specifically, do you think are bad and how could they be improved? Don't just tell me they're bad--point me to better ones. If it's the pro-SW examples, then you'll have to settle for them, because there aren't any better ones--that's one reason why it's generally discredited. The anti-SW example is the simplest one to explain and lets the user use his personal experience to understand the idea; I think it's very good. In short, I don't find your criticism here specific enough to make any actual change. --LDC
Agreed, so moved the last paragraph here
In the area of Biblical Studies, the idea that ideas expressed in the Bible could be derived from study of the mechanics of the languages used (Greek and Hebrew) was (and is) influential, but was dismantled by James Barr (Semantics of Biblical Language, 1961; Biblical Words for Time, 1969). A less technical argument is that, for example, Platonists, anti-Platonists, Gnostics, and who know what else, could all explain themselves in Greek. So Greek doesn't tell you much about them.
(I didn't do this paragraph, but I didn't object to it so much that I wanted to delete it. Perhaps if its author can better explain its relevance...) --LDC
Is SWC transitive? for example, if I am to understand that language constrains your idea pool, then does that mean that you CANNOT have an idea that your language cannot express? Thats been demonstrated to be wrong, but that just proves the thoery doesn't go both ways, right? The way I read it, it said that language constrains the ideas you can have. So, to say that I've come up with ideas that I cannot express says nothing as to whether or not my language prevented me from not having certain ideas _at all_. additionally, since there is not a 1:1 relationship between phrases and ideas, a plausible explanation as to why we have ideas that are not immediately expressable is because other areas of the language allowed that field of thought to be generally conceptualized but not commonly linguistically expressed. The wikipedia is not for argument I understand, but I thought of this immediately, so am I wrong or do other people believe something like this?
--Alan D
- I have strong reasons for believing what you said, but I cannot put them into words :-) --Ed Poor
Thanks, Alan, for the better critique. You're absolutely right that if someone like you (a generally educated English-speaking adult) finds it hard to understand something as written here or if it seems to you that something is left out, then it is quite reasonable to ask whether the article presents the subject well. Let me see if I can do better: The word "transitive" you use above means something that doesn't make any sense in context you use it, so I'm going to assume you meant something else. The rest of the question seems to me that you're simply confusing weak versions with stronger absolutes. The absolute version of SW, that language constrains (i.e., puts absolute limits on) thought is indeed saying that one literally cannot have a thought that isn't expressible in one's language. This is plainly false,
- That's not necessarily true. While not a central argument for linguistic determinism that's currently ongoing (and there is plenty ongoing) Research into phonemic recognition has shown effects of linguistic determinsism. For instance Japanese speakers, growing up in Japan do have greater (and lasting) difficulties distinguishing the phoneme /l/ from /r/ (forgive if the notation is wrong, it's been a while). I say its not central because it could be argued this is an auditory thing rather than linguistic. But I think it proves a point. The fact that the Japanese language does not distinguish between these two phonemes has had a permanent effect on how the world is percieved and even more directly on the speaker's ability to perceive it. I'm sure there are similar examples in English. Melody
and while the example given may not be a rigorous refutation of that, it is intended as a demonstration that someone should be able to relate to. Weaker versions of SW say that one's native language influences thought to some degree, which is almost certainly true. The degree to which it is true is a matter of some debate: comtemporary linguists believe that while it is not zero, it is very close to zero. The only good examples of where language choice definitely influences thought so far discovered are the color-name study and the sign-language study. But those two small effects aren't really enough to counter the Chomskian contention that SW effects are practically inconsequential.
In short, the SWH is itself a vague idea in many forms, and so descriptions and discussions of it are going to couched in vague, qualititative terms. We're not talking about math or physics here, but it is reasonable science to put forth the hypothesis and test it as has been done. It's also a subject that's been talked about a lot, so it deserves clear treatment. --LDC
Thanks. I thought about it a while after I wrote that, and I pretty much came to the conclusion that SWH at the extremes of both ends is demonstrably false, and in between is too "squishy" to be meaningful. I still kind of believe that language has a large impact on at least the formation of ideas, but language is a product of collective cultural experience so that really makes the formation of ideas somewhat reliant on environment more than directly language. As for transitive, maybe I think I meant reflexive, unless I screwed that up too. I do still feel the argument I criticized is some sort of a fallacy though.
--Alan D
- I see why it may be a fallacy: if one can't easily express a thought he has, it may just mean he's subconsciously thinking of another phrase that can precisely express that thought, just that he's not consciously thinking about that phrase. (I'm inclined to think though that this latter possibility is still false: In discussions of philosophy, when I try to get someone to explain why his pet ideology is true, he just stutters vague things like "You need to absorb and understand the whole philosophy before you know it's true", and -- the important part -- after several weeks or months of discussion it's still like that.) -- [email protected]
Thanks for clearing that up, it's what I would have said had not my thoughts been weak and constrained, although thoughts were indeed close to zero. All kidding aside, I think I (almost) understand the S-W hypothesis now, but what bearing does this have on feminism and using they or them to indicate the third person singular?
Will I think all teachers are men if you say, "A teacher should mind his business?" Will I suddenly forget what percentage of teachers are female. How about for nurses?
Can I say, "A nurse should make sure her clothing is tidy?" Or will you forget that men have started to become nurses also?
- I believe the (silly, IMHO) theory is that, because the masculine is the default, it sets up a culture that thinks of women as "not men," i.e., not the norm. This then leads to a lesser position of women because they are not the norm -- it works in the sense of white as a racial norm, too -- although that one I buy. Having said that, my own feelings may be influenced by the fact that I'm able to speak and/or understand several languages -- not the norm for Murrkins, and possibly giving me a different viewpoint. JHK, still a feminist, but a thinking one -- and Camille Paglia isn't, IMO
- I'm not sure many people take it that far (i.e., saying that the cultural position of women is actually caused by the language). After all, women were horribly subjugated in cultures whose language doesn't have that problem (like classical Chinese before it was "modernized" by giving it the same male-default ambiguity as English!) But I think many people do believe (and perhaps reasonably) that the use of masculine pronouns does make it harder to make progress in overcoming those problems. For example, people who read books and articles that always refer to a doctor as "him" may subconsciously feel more "comfortable" with male doctors, and seek them out, to the financial detriment of female doctors, leading to fewer women seeking the profession, etc. It's probably not a major effect, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand because of the few positive SWH studies. --LDC
I'm sorry, Taw, but your edits were confusing and not even grammatical English, so I can't be sure what you're trying to say or whether it's relevant, but I don't think so. I reverted to the last version but cleaned it up a bit (including changing the Unicode references into named entities that more browsers should understand). If there's a point you don't think is being made, mention it here in the Talk page and maybe we can find a real linguist (as opposed to an amateur like me) to tell us if it should be included. --LDC
Taw, tell us more about these points:
- "Almost every social group modifies its language by replacing neutral words with non-neutral ones with the same meaning (could somebody provide some English examples here: for Jehovah Witnesses, hackers etc.). It can be interpreted as trying to take benefit of Sapir-Whorf effect and enforcing all members of the group to think in the same way."
1. Why is this relevant to S-W hypoth? 2. Is this the best place for your observation? Sounds like a propaganda tactic to me, rather than a way of limiting thought. Ed Poor ____________
The article can't begin:
The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is the controversial theory
It just can't. 64.229.14.142
- Why not? The hypothesis is part of its name, theory is what it is. The map is not the territory, and the name of something is not a definition of what it is. Martin
Someone linked to Church's conjecture which I re-pointed at the Church-Turing thesis. But I am not clear on its relevance to SWH: C-T is concerned with theoretical possibility rather than practicality.
I also am a newbie and don't know what to do about the redundant page.
Fool 21:09 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)
I moved SWh to SWH because
- The article capitalizes the "H" in the first line.
- SWH is not a description, but a name; Sapir and Whorf may have had other hypotheses, but "SWH" refers to a very specific one.
However, all but one of the links in the Wikipedia point to the uncapitalized version. Is there a good reason for this? Hopefully, they were just following the lead of the article, because I'll go and change them now... Paullusmagnus 23:17, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The following doesn't sound like a NPOV:
- So-called politically correct language stems from the belief that using (for example) sexist language tends to make one think in a sexist manner.
Does anyone know of a better way to rewrite this? I don't like the "so-called" and I don't think political correctness is about that belief at all, political correctness is about not being offensive when you otherwise would not intend to be. MShonle 09:22, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- That entire section is very POV. It associates attempts to reform sexist language with "constraints", Orwellian mind-control and "magical thinking". I'll be rewriting this soon. I'm aware it's a potentially controversial subject – if someone disagrees, let's discuss it here first to avoid an edit war. Fpahl 14:32, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- John Grinder, a founder of NLP, was a linguistics professor who perhaps unconsciously combined the ideas of Chomsky with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. A seminal NLP insight came from a challenge he gave to his students: coin a neologism to describe a distinction for which you have no words. Student Robert Dilts coined a word for the way people stare into space when they are thinking, and for the different directions they stare. These new words enabled users to describe patterns in the ways people stare into space, which led directly to NLP—a fitting piece of support for the validity of NLP.
I don't understand why this is relevant to SWH, nor why this supports the validity of NLP. It doesn't seem relevant to SWH because the person who made up the new words had to have been able to think the thought without the words in order to make them up, and it doesn't seem to support NLP since the act of talking about the new words would naturally have directed the groups attention to the phenomenon being discussed. Would additional information clear this up, or should this paragraph instead be replaced with a shorter sentence noting NLP's historical connection to SWH and linking to NLP for further in-depth discussion? --Saucepan 17:58, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Confusing text?
I found the following text to be confusing (italics are mine):
- The Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) analysis of the problem is direct: Most people do some of their thinking by talking to themselves. Most people do some of their thinking by imagining images and other sensory phantasms. To the extent that people think by talking to themselves they are limited by their vocabulary and the structure of their language and their linguistic habits. (However it should also be noted that individuals have idiolects.)
The two sentences starting with "Most" are throwing me. Are they to imply that most individuals exhibit both behaviors, or that there are two groups of people, some who talk to themselves, and some who imagine images and other sensory phantasms? (Ultimately, it just reads like the original writer accidentally left in two versions of the same sentence.)
If it's the former (which is more likely), I suggest combining the two sentences thus: "Most people do some of their thinking by talking to themselves, and some of their thinking by imagining images and other sensory phantasms."
If it's the latter, I would suggest: "Some people do some of their thinking by talking to themselves, while others do some of their thinking by imagining images and other sensory phantasms."
Histrion 16:07, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Affordance
I'd work in the idea of "Affordance"- What kinds of statements does a language afford?
http://communitywiki.org/WhatIsAffordance
ie Blogs afford general status updates, spoken to the blue, whereas if you do that on a mailing list, that's generally considered wrong. People DO give status reports in mailing lists, and people DO give messages to specific individuals by way of blog. But the affordance doesn't point that way- blogs afford journals and general messages to the open, and mailing lists afford communications tied to subjects and targeted for the mailing list recipients list.
This is extremely similar to the way different programming languages afford particular uses, and the way that spoken languages afford particular expressions and paths of expression.
- That's a great insight. Thanks. I hope someone finds the time to write that into an article somewhere (and doesn't disqualify it as "original research"!). Saucepan 17:36, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Brain Imaging Evidence of language groups inhabiting separate 'mind-space'
Some while ago I had read information on differences, not between languages but between language groups; Basque - Spanish, Swedish - Finnish, Where completely different areas of the brain were shown to 'light up' or be used when engaging in language; speaking/reading, as the sole stimuli, when scanning brain activity. I think some mention of this would be pertinent to the article. Nagelfar 06:44, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why I moved this page
The name of this page, with a capital H, was at variance with perhaps several thousand Wikipedia pages titled Smith's law, Smith's theorem, Smith's axiom, etc., etc., with a lower-case letter. Michael Hardy 13:51, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Too Much Opinion/ Interpretation
I found that this article does not read like something that should be in an encyclopedia - in particular the "strong and weak arguments" section appears to be the author's own ponderings on the subject, rather than an attempt to represent the theory, unadulterated. Too much deviation into discussion of points for and against - I'm sure if the hypothesis had been covered well enough, the reader could form their own opinion about it.
"Sensuous intuition" is not noumenal reality. The very fact that pure sensation constitutes intuitions indicates for Kant that for reality even to be perceived, it must be filtered through the pure intutions of space and time. Whatever "reality is in flux" means, if anything, intuition is not entirely in flux because it's already been converted into empirical intuition by the mind. The application of the categories is not the first instance of synthesis.
Second, the categories are universal to anything possessing reason. The application of space, time, and the categories to raw sense data does not make a subjective experience but an objective one, with patterns that can be recognized by anyone.
Someone needs to read his Kant.