Talk:Studio pottery

Bernard Leach

Hello all, Shouldn't there be reference to Studio potters that pre-dated Leach? Regards, Andy

Sounds reasonable. This is a very important topic, well worth expanding in several respects: pre-Leach studio potters, more recent potters, and studio pottery in other country, etc., etc. --Klmarcus 15:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Thanks for the agreement. I've started a little but of course it's far from complete, and the format needs polishing. I've removed some detail on Leach as the entry is on Studio Pottery rather than him though of course the link remains

Any contributions yourself? Regards, Andy

Re-write

I think more work is needed on this and I will contribute when I have more time, but here are some comments.

“Has been described” should be sourced. It’s a mistake to start by saying what it’s not (e.g. not started by Leach) rather than what it is. It’s wrong to say studio pottery is not made for a purpose – much of it is. The pre-1900 examples are usually described as “art pottery” rather than studio pottery. Staite Murray was in the early days as important as Leach. Leach and Rie’s relationship was more complex than you describe, and they represented opposing trends: Leach was a craft potter, Rie a modernist. Studio pottery is not well described as “slowly becoming collectable” with such high prices at Bonhams.

I’m happy to re-write in due course.

Marshall46 14:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reference your recent dramatic changes to the Studio Pottery page..I think they are an improvement but question whether Grayson Perry's work is the ideal example of a "distinct trend away from functional pottery" since on the whole is work consists of eminently functional vases? Perhaps better examples would be someone like John Maltby or Betty Woodman? Teapotgeorge 17:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't happy myself about Grayson Perry as an example, and will consider your suggestion. However, the fact that Perry is the only potter to win the Turner Prize makes him worth mentioning somewhere. I think the article still emphasises early studio pottery too much and doesn't say enough about the last 25 years. Having said that, it should have a few sentences about Staite Murray, who was Leach's main rival in the early C20th. Leach's more prominent trainees ought to be mentioned. It's still Anglocentric, but that reflects my ignorance of (especially) American studio pottery. I would welcome any additions along these lines. Marshall46 22:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Named potters

Hello from South Africa We're wondering if our Website would qualify for a listing/link on Wikipedia? Our site: www.pottery.co.za Look forward to some feedback. With best wishes, David and Felicity

Hello David and Felicity, Whilst it is not for me to decide I wonder if such inclusion would contravene wikipedia's policy on links to commercial sites Regards, Andy

The list of studio potters is problematic. How does one select? There are thousands. I think the principle should be: potters who are agreed to be historically important, influential or widely respected by ceramic artists and/or critics. I have added several that meet those criteria and I think there are others on the list that don't, but I haven't deleted any yet.

The list and the article as a whole are Anglocentric and ignore studio pottery in the USA, which is very important. It also focuses on the early 20th century and virtually ignores post-Leach artists (e.g. there is no mention of Turner Prize winner Grayson Perry!) Marshall46 15:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cliff Lee appears in the list of studio potters but the link takes you to a basketball player?? Teapotgeorge 21:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reference should be to "Cliff Lee (potter)." Klmarcus 02:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some rather basic details about Colin Pearson (potter) and Katherine Pleydell-Bouverie as there was nothing...Hope that's OK with everyone? Teapotgeorge 21:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some very basic details of William Staite Murray needs expanding. Teapotgeorge 13:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have just deleted two names. These had no internal links and no citation. I was a little bold in doing so but they could be anyone. Can we start a debate about who to include? At the momement the list is longer then the article, I suggest cutting it down. ThanxTheriac

I have just had a look at the current list. There a some with internal links and some without. I have listed those which need either citaion to support their inclusion or they should be deleted

Can links be made, or citations be given for these (I know some are well known but for Wikipedia they must be supported) - Margaret Hine, Nicholas Vergette, Gordon Baldwin, Svend Bayer, Alison Briton, Michael Casson, Joanna Contantinidis, ~~Seth Cardew~~, Emmanuel Cooper, Elizabeth Fritsch, Gwyn Hanssen-Pigott, Chris Keenan, Gabrielle Koch, Richard Slee, Julian Stair, Edmund De Waal, Takeshi Yashuda, Jacqui Poncelet, Carol McNicoll, Geoffrey Swindell, Jill Crowley, Glenys Barton

These have internal links, but of unsupported value. Can their inclusion be supported?

Yoshiaki Fujiwara – a wrestler! A single line in the article mentions being a potter
Bob Kingsmill – no books or publications listed in the article (self promotion?)
Colin Pearson (potter) – no books or publications listed in the article (self promotion?)
Katherine Pleydell-Bouverie – no books or publications listed in the article
Paul Soldner – no books or publications listed in the article

ThanxTheriac 16:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote the Katherine Pleydell-Bouverie article... [I just added some references as well] she is mentioned in many books I will find some more references for her. I wrote the Colin Pearson article also but don't know how one decides who is worthy of inclusion and who is not? Teapotgeorge 17:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Teapotgeorge. "don't know how one decides who is worthy of inclusion and who is not?" Neither do I but I guess there most be something like any other entry. It must be supported by citations (published in books, magazines) Otherwise anyone could list themselves. ThanxTheriac 17:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In which case the Bernard Leach article (arguably the most famous studio potter) also needs some work on it...there are no citations from books? :) Teapotgeorge 17:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Teapotgeorge. True. But all inclusions must be supported by citations (personally I would happily leave him off. But that is opinion!)ThanxTheriac 18:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hee hee :¬) now that WOULD be controversial!!Teapotgeorge 18:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know :-) But to me ->

Muddy brown glazes
Ugly, mishapen pots
Dictatorial (My way or the wrong way)
Promoted only a very limited number of traditions (And concentrated on just one Japanese style)
Ignored many other traditions

I am not alone. But I know it would not be popular (especailly in the US where the Leach-style hangs on stronger than in Europe)Theriac 18:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A good basis is Gowing, Christopher, and Rice, Paul, British Studio Ceramics in the 20th Century, Barrie and Jenkins, 1989, p.125. ISBN 0-7126-2042-7, though a lot has happened since they wrote the book and they are impossibly prejudiced against tin-glaze. Membership of the CPA is also a good basis, though there are a few eminent ceramists who choose not to be associated with it.

Marshall46 19:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just added very basic details of Seth Cardew I trust this is ok? Teapotgeorge 23:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Teapotgeorge, Hi Marshall46 (I was hoping you would come over for soft-paste as I thought you could help)

I can see that full membership of the CPA would carry some weight but according to the help pages "Verifiability, by providing readers with the sources of the facts contained in the article." An article's content must must be able to be confirmed. Can membership? My suggestion is to get rid of all those without supporting citations (books, magazines), or add some where known. This must include even those "we" know to be worthy of listing (I read some where that Wikipedia is not lookng for the "truth", just what can be verified) Listing potters without support, including famous ones, would set a precedent. How could it then be possible to argue against anyone being listed? Thanx--Theriac 08:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just added very basic details of potters Takeshi Yasuda and Julian Stair whose names were in red on the list of Studio Potters. [I included references too!]

I will take a look at some of the others and add references where needed Teapotgeorge 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good on you Teapotgeorge! ThanxTheriac

I have removed the reference to Bernard Palissy as associated with the Arts and Crafts Movement as he pre-dated it by several hundred years! Marshall46 16:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the references to Lucca della Robbia and Francesco Xanto Avelli as they are not studio potters. Marshall46 17:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the self-promotion link to David Dotter Ceramics. Marshall46 17:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1900-1990

Last paragraph of Post 1900 section needs some serious editing or reverting (not encyclopaedic) and ditto Major Studio Pottery Collections section... what does anyone else think? 21:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't understand why my pictures of Stair and Spira have been removed? The top image by Pearson is not mentioned any more than Julian or Rupert is so why is that ok and mine aren't? Surely any images as good examples of studio pottery should be considered valid? Thanks Ewan.

I have changed the subheading from "Birth" to "Development".

I have added a couple of paragraphs on post-WWII. They read as POV, but are derived from the Tanya Harrod essay cited. Marshall46 14:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1990 - Current: Modern British potters

Where is the debate about whether “modern potters are moving the form forward or not”? I am familiar with contemporary British ceramics, have never encountered such a debate and don’t understand what “moving the form forward” means. The passage about “two trends” – “minimalistic vessels not for practical use” and “far more abstract forms” – strikes me as the editor’s opinion. If it can’t be sourced, it should be removed. Marshall46 17:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have been involved in contemporary ceramics for 30 years and I too have not encountered any "debate" This section is rather clumsily written and POV. Grayson Perry's pots are decorated and elaborate but certainly NOT abstract forms? Teapotgeorge 14:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As it hasn't been sourced I've removed it. This section needs more work to bring it up to date.. Marshall46 08:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Collections

I have added the names of a few private galleries. I realise this is controversial as it may be regarded as advertising, but those I have listed show work of such importance that omission would be a disservice to those seeking more information. Anglocentric again, sorry, but I hope others will add more. Marshall46 17:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scope

This article is very limited in its scope. The removal of some potters looks to be prejudice - I hope I am mistaken in this but that is the impression given by a review of what has been removed, examples are Bernard Palissy, Lucca della Robbia and Francesco Xanto Avelli. They fit the description of given at the start "Studio pottery is made by artists working alone or in small groups, producing unique items or pottery in small quantities." Also the sentence of "It is generally considered that studio" is weasil worded and wrong.