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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DESiegel (talk | contribs) at 02:44, 5 June 2005 (Gustavus Adolphus). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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In 1632, Sweden had not yet adopted the Gregorian Calendar, so his death is memorized on November 6. Since 1928, this is done by eating a special pastry topped with his portrait in marsipan, called Gustav Adolf-bakelse. This tradition is especially popular in Gothenburg, the city he founded. In Finland, the Swedish-speaking community celebrates November 6 as "the Swedish day".


This is just not encyclopedic (although oddly interesting). If included, it needs to go somewhere other than the middle of GA's career. JHK

Appearance in Fiction

Gustavus is a major character in the alternate history book 1632 by Eric Flint and its sequel 1633 (with more to follow). The books mention his "secret" person Captain Gars, which would appear to have a historical basis (AltaVista failed to find any mention but Google came up trumps). Is this the sort of information which should appear for such a major historical figure? Actually I would assume that the Captain Gars nugget should be added Phil 10:54, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC) Added April 3, 2005 by JohnMc

Naming conventions for Swedish monarchs

Gustavus Adolphus is the name under which the Swedish king Gustav II Adolf generally is known to an English speaking audience. The discussion regarding the English, or Wikipedia names, of the Swedish monarchs is kept under Talk:List of Swedish monarchs. -- Mic 16:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On Talk:List of Swedish monarchs the name in English is "Gustav II Adolph", and this is an English encyclopedia. Also, it should use the correct title of the monarch. See also: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560687/Gustav_II_Adolph.html Sky 08:06, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
see also: [User_talk:Mic#Gustav_II_Adolph_of_Sweden] Sky 15:25, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Regarding Gustavus Adolphus there are several in different forms in use which are widely accepted, and not even the Swedish language convenstions are consistent on the issue. Currently there are a number of unresolved issues regarding the naming of Swedish monarchs. See Unresolved naming issues for the Swedish monarchs for a discussion on this. (See also: User talk:Sky#Regarding your editing style)-- Mic 12:09, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gustav II Adolph

The Microsoft Encyclopedia lists the guy under "Gustav II Adolph (of Sweden)" and also two other encyclopedias I have looked at. The Encyclopedia Britannica even lists him under the Swedish name Gustav II Adolf (which I think is even better). I do not understand your point of view. Please have a look at User talk:Sky. Sky 08:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

PS: Since this is the English wikipedia, different Swedish forms of the name really don't matter. Sky 08:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

1626 Campaign in PLC

This article has no mention at all of pre-1630 Gustav fights. See Stanislaw_Koniecpolski#War_against_the_Swedes for some of his earlier campaigns info that you coul easily add here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gustavus Adolphus?

Shouldn't this be at something like Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden? The current name is not the most commonly used name in English, by far... john k 20:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If "Gustavus Adolphus" is how he's best known, then yes, it should be. Proteus (Talk) 22:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is a case where there is indeed a traditional English form of a Swedish name (as opposed to the mere stripping of diacritics from a name), and I have long had the urge to move him to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. However, the title should be consistent with all other Swedish monarchs with the names Gustav or Adolf, so they will have to be moved as well, and all redirects then need to be fixed. / Tupsharru 15:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it should not be consistent, because usage changes over time. We already have Charles XII of Sweden and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, for instance. We could keep Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden (which is already weird, with the "v" ending Gustav and the "f" ending Adolf) and move this one to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. The list of Swedish monarchs should attempt to be consistent, I think, but there's no need for the article titles to. john k 03:00, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it's prudent to point out that "Gustavus Adolphus" is Latin, not English. That Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Gustav II Adolf" is a very good reason not to use the Latin name. That my fellow Swedes have a disturbing tendency to believe the latinized names are acually English "translations" is a different matter altogether. This just seems to be some kind of insecurity about using the Swedish terms among Swedes themselves, despite the major encyclopedias like EB favoring the Swedish names.
And why the quirky spelling? Is it somehow more English to use "ph" rather than just "f"...?
Peter Isotalo 20:43, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
Peter, you are welcome to erase the offensive comment above and replace it with something worthy of a reply. Tupsharru 08:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the extreme silliness that I've experienced with the naming of articles like Gotlandia and Medelpadia, I think I'll keep the comment, though I did not intend to single out this discusssion as representative of this trait and apologize if it was perceived as insulting. How do you comment the fact that major English language encyclopedias don't use "Gustavus Adolphus"?
Peter Isotalo 23:47, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
Peter, I think it would be better if you kept to one issue at the time, and I would like to suggest that you join the Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board, and create a subpage there on naming standards for Swedish topics. I don't see your annoyment with User:Mic as quite justified, as this is a very difficult issue. Some of his choices may be questioned, but if it hadn't been for the work he put into it, a lot of things would have to be done from scratch, rather than by just moving a few pages.
As for GIIA, current usage is probably influenced by the Swedish form, but Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus, Latin endings and all, is indeed traditional English usage; it was still used, for instance, for Gustavus III and Gustavus IV Adolphus by their contemporaries, as witnessed by a search of the full-text database of The Times from that period. The name of the Swedish-American Gustavus Adolphus College is another witness to this usage, and the arguably most significant English-language author on Swedish history, Michael Roberts used this form in titles of his influential books on the king, published in 1958 and 1973 (the latter republished in 1992). If you check Libris, you will find other, even more recent, book titles which use Gustavus Adolphus. There is no doubt that this is the name under which English-speakers of, say, the 19th century would have known him and the name many still prefer. The situation today is more ambiguous, but I think there is still a fair case for using it today. However, basing conclusions on a faulty Google search is not useful, here or anywhere else.
BTW, the EB is not a good model, considering it uses Charles VIII Knutsson (with the fake, anachronistic numbering) for the king known in Swedish as Karl Knutsson (Bonde) (and in Wikipedia as Charles VIII of Sweden). I don't know whether there is any English usage to speak of in that case; It just seems like an arbitrary choice.
In any case, I still think the issue of how to name other kings historically referred to by the name of Gustavus has to be part of the discussion. Although usage has clearly changed from the late 19th century towards favouring the Swedish forms for contemporary monarchs (as opposed to historic ones), I think a move of Gustav II Adolph to Gustavus Adolphus (or some similar version) would need a consideration of other kings from the period when this was contemporary usage, i.e. GIII and GIVA. Tupsharru 15:28, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This is very relevant to the other Swedish goegraphy non-sequitur, Tupsharru, because this not the first time I've encountered a peculiar tendency among Swedes to choose article titles that are either "correct translations" or that appear to sound as non-Swedish as possible (whether they are actually English or notable seems irrelevant). I think this is pretty consistent with the attitude that a lot of Swedes have about their own history and language. It's not as much anti-nationalist as it is simply anti-Swedish; anything that somehow differs from Swedish terms or from what Swedes themselves use seems to be treated as consistently more objective, correct and favorable, and a lot of the time a great deal of Swenglish is involved. To keep this discussion among Swedes is really the worst solution and quite contrary to Wikipedia purposes, since it's obvious that the opinions of non-Swedes is as relevant and important in these discussions. It's hardly just the business of Swedes to describe their own history...
As for GA, contemporary usage of titles, names and the likes is simply never relevant as a motivation for choosing encyclopedic article ttiles for the very reason that I stated before; Latin being a major lingua franca. The relevant usage is, and should always be, the current usage. That one of the alternatives coincides with the historical usage is not the issue and should, if anything, used as a reason why not to use it.
When pointing out that EB (and Encarta) are using the Swedish name, I'm certainly not trying to promote an "EB model", but rather trying to point out that other encyclopedias, which seem to me as being among the most relevant for our purposes, have chosen the Swedish name. I'm really surprised that you because of this actually object to the very idea of being influenced by the Swedish name. It would, if anything be logical to do just that, especially when choosing between a Latinized and a Swedish name. Since both names are obviously used in English contexts to a reasonable degree and with encyclopedias choosing the Swedish form, it seems very odd that the Latin one would all of a sudden be deemed the most appropriate.
But I suppose a poll is the only way to really settle this, so could someone set one up? And could we try to avoid "correct" or "consistent" naming, because the names of kings seldom seem to be in real-world texts or even encyclopedias. "Gustavus Adolphus" or "Gustav II Adolf" seem to me as the only really relevant alternatives.
Peter Isotalo 12:22, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
It might be "more English" to use the -ph ending rather than the -f ending in Adolph. But jsut because the -f ending may be more common in modern Swedish, that does not mean that the -ph ending is not a historically correct Swedish spelling as well. Gene Nygaard 14:29, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
We don't use "historical spelling" for any other monarchs, no matter if they're Swedish or not, and neither do Swedes or Swedish dictionaries. They use "Gustav II Adolf" without exception and I'm not even sure the historical spelling was ever "Adolph". Moreover Swedish orthography was not in the least bit consistent until the late 19th century and the latest spelling reform wasn't fully realized until the early 20th century (consistently spelling /v/ with "v"). In fact, there was more consistency in the 16th century than there was in the 17th. And what's "more English" about -ph? Sounds like a matter of taste to me (e.i. we go by the more common Swedish and English spelling).
Peter Isotalo 14:49, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
So, where do you end up if you enter Carl von Linne or Carl von Linné? Gene Nygaard 15:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Google returns about 212,000 hits for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only about about 1,100 for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". Limiting the search to English, it finds about 170,000 English pages for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only 1,070 English pages for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". NoAccount 16:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, searching for "Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden" results in 663 hits, and the proper search for the other names is around 3700 (English sites). There seems to be a lot of colleges, buildings, churches and the likes named after GA that show up in searches for the Latin name, btw. Despite this, I would like to insist on that the choice made by several major encyclopedias should be given more importance than just Google searches.
Peter Isotalo 00:07, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
"...a lot of colleges, buildings, churches and the likes named after Gustavus Adolphus" under that name. Doesn't that tell you something about which one is the most well known? NoAccount 00:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No, it just tells us that a college and a couple of churches in Minnesota happen to bear the name "Gustavus Adolphus". If you make a search with "-college" the amount of hits drops to 41k. Add "-Minnesota" and your down to 37k and add "-church" and it goes down to 28k. And once again: please give me a good explanation why major English-language encyclopedias use the Swedish name instead of the Latin one.
Peter Isotalo 11:46, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I'm in favour of the change in name but to follow common policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles the didget and the country should be in there eg:

Although as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles says:

Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when the ordinal was in official use. For example, Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Victoria I of the United Kingdom; Juan Carlos I of Spain, not Juan Carlos of Spain.

So I think that or Gustavus II of Sweden or Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden or Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden would be better than just Gustavus Adolphus --Philip Baird Shearer 01:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

He was to the best of my knowledge never refered to as "Gustavus II Adolphus". The Swedes called him "Gustav II Adolf" and the rest of Europe apparantly called him "Gustavus Adolphus" because Latin was still a widely used lingua franca. Though I just can't fathom the reasons for rendering either "Gustav" or "Adolf" into Latin in modern English. It simply smacks of Swenglish...
Peter Isotalo 11:46, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with you, however this gets us no where nearer to deciding if this article should be renamed, and if so to what name. So I propose that we vote on it. By using Approval voting and listing the options. One can vote for as many or as few options as one wishes too. Philip Baird Shearer

Requested moves

This was the original move vote - please see the Second vote section for the second attempt

The Requested move placed on the WP:RM page was:

Gustav II Adolph of SwedenGustavus Adolphus since this name is much more common. See the google searches on the discussion page. NoAccount

Because there was no clear consensus reached to move the page, (or for the page to remain under the current name),after five days this has been extended 2 June 2005.

I propose that a vote is taken and that Approval voting is used so that there can be more than one option. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Could everyone please remove the opposing votes that don't actually fill any useful purpose? Sticking to jus one supporting vote would really help readability as well...
Peter Isotalo 18:11, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

  • Propose move to Gustavus Adolphus
    • Oppose. I don't see why Gustavus Adolphus should be alone in not having the country he was monarch of included in the article title. john k 13:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. That could be a disambiguation page, what with the colleges etc. Gene Nygaard 14:20, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
    • Oppose. I agree this would be a good place for a disambiguation page for all the kings who had a similar name as well as the institutions named after. Jonathunder 16:16, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
  • Oppose there really needs to be an indication of antionality i the article title. DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Propose move to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden
    • Support. This is my preferred option Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Mine as well. john k 13:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Gene Nygaard 14:20, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
    • Support, preferred choice. Jonathunder 16:17, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
    • Support, as the number needs to be part of the name to more clearly disambiguate from King G IV A in categories. Gustavus Adolphus and Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden should nevertheless redirect to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with a link to Gustavus Adolphus (disambiguation) at the top of the article. The dab page should mention something about the change in English usage, and the Swedish form should be used for Gustav V and Gustav VI Adolf. (We will still have to discuss whether the proper Swedish form ought to be Gustav or Gustaf for the modern kings, but that could be done somewhere else.) (This construction is part of the explanation of my vote, so please don't move the comment, but copy it and reply to it elsewhere if you like.) Tupsharru 07:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Oppose This is no more likely a search term than the current title. Anyone who knows enough to insert the number knows enough to use the non-latin form. Anyone who doesn't will find tis title no more helpful then the present oner. But include a redirect from thios form, also. DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


  • Propose move to Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden
    • Support, but second choice. Gustavus IV Adolphus and Gustavus VI Adolphus also bore the byname. This title would thus be mildly confusing. That said, Those two are always "Gustavus IV Adolphus" and "Gustaf VI Adolf" (or some such), not usually just "Gustavus Adolphus," so I think this would be okay. john k 13:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Gene Nygaard 14:20, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
    • Support, but second choice. Jonathunder 16:21, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
    • Support since this seems to be the most common, per google searches. CDThieme 22:39, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - see the google results outlined above. No Account
    • Mild support If there was to be a move this is the msot sensible destination. Better would be to creat thsi bage as a disambig page pointing to the several monarchs who bore soem varient of thius name, including G II A. DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Propose move to Gustav II Adolf of Sweden
    • Oppose. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose john k 13:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. See my comment below. /Jebur 06:25, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Support Gustav II Adolf of Sweden is perfectly acceptable and understandable. As DESiegel has said above, a redirect and a list of alternate names on the main page works just as well. And for my 2c, this isn't the Latin wikipedia either, to me Gustavus Adolphus sounds akin to archaic academic terminology. --kudz75 07:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional names which you may think are appropriate to the list above. Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals. Voting more than once is encouraged with Approval voting. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What's is the point of counter-opposing everything you're not supporting! It's one vote per alternative or no one will ever understand what the actual outcome will be. Please check out Talk:Swedish Social Democratic Party for how to design a proper vote.
Peter Isotalo 14:11, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Since the request was for the moving to Gustavus Adolphus, the vote should be about that. I've reformated the vote to how it's usually done, but if you feel you need the other alternatives, at least format it properly, and not with this chaotic second option-system. It's one vote per option. Period. ::Peter Isotalo 14:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Did you read a single word of what I wrote? This vote is not interpretable. It's messy, utterly oblique and completley obscures what this issue is about. This is about using either the Latin or the Swedish name. Not irrelevant arguments of spelling, whether to add "of Sweden" and especially not about non-notable alternatives like "Gustavus II Adolphus". That's just the same mistake as is commonly seen here; making up your own terminology because it seems more "correct". That's nothing but original research on a micro-level.
Peter Isotalo 15:08, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

What is the real point of the suggested move. if it is to assit people in finding the article, why won't redirects from all the likely forms of the name do the job? The form "Gustavus Adolphus" with no number is probably the best known in english, but is neither unambiguious, nor does it follow the usual naming conventions for articles on monarchs. The form "Gustavus II Adolphus" is not likley to help those knowing only the form without an inserted number (most english speakers with limited knowledge of the history involved) nor is it "correct". DES 16:06, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Since the request was for the moving to Gustavus Adolphus, the vote should be about that. I've reformated the vote to how it's usually done, but if you feel you need the other alternatives, at least format it properly, and not with this chaotic second option-system. It's one vote per option. Period.
Peter Isotalo 14:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

After Peter deleted the existing votes, we have even more of a mess than before. Note that, once a request for move is listed on WP:RFM, we are not normally limited to the actual wording proposed. Changes and other alternatives are often considered, and implemented, are they not?

But note further that the change by Philip Baird Shearer was also done without discussion here, and it was wrongly implemented. As the article approval voting explains, the set of available options there are {+1,0}. In other words, opposing votes have no meaning. So it is quite misleading to call for opposing votes, at the same time the claim is made that the results will be interpreted as being "approval voting" which doesn't count them.

So I guess the first order of business is to redefine the voting process. Gene Nygaard 14:52, May 29, 2005 (UTC)


It is quite common to use approval voting for where there is more than one alternative. After five days of discussing the name it is quite clear that no one alternative around which a consensus was forming. Including the leaving it where it was option. WP:RM recommends that approval voting is used. If you want to remove the Oppose votes I have no problem with that but as we are not using single transferable voting it is a way that opposition to a proposal can be shown. Philip Baird Shearer 15:16, 29 May 2005 (UCT)
With the call for opposing votes, it is not approval voting. That's quite significant. Don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes by trying to give the impression that an opposing vote is going to have some meaning, if it isn't going to do so. And don't call it "approval voting" if it is going to have some meaning. Because it is screwed up now, I think we need to throw out all of these votes, clarify exactly what we are doing, and ask everyone to reenter votes on that basis. Gene Nygaard 15:21, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Putting in an Oppose vote works because on some name one may not have a strong opinion. This my be flawed (I do not think so), but even so it is clear that some options are more popular than others, which is more clarity than we got with a week of talking about it. Philip Baird Shearer
I personally think that opposing votes should count for something. A choice with the most support, but also with strong opposition, is probably not as good a choice as one with nearly as much support, but with little opposition. However, my point remains, that if we do it that way, it is not approval voting and we should not be calling it "approval voting". If it is going to have some meaning, we should be a little bit clearer about how it is going to factor into any final decision. Maybe we need to use that process to narrow down the choices, then have a runoff, an up or down vote on one option or a choice from at most three options (perhaps by true approval voting). Gene Nygaard 15:52, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

As for the statment that it is "This is about using either the Latin or the Swedish name. Not irrelevant arguments of spelling, whether to add "of Sweden" and especially not about non-notable alternatives like "Gustavus II Adolphus". That's just the same mistake as is commonly seen here; making up your own terminology because it seems more "correct". That's nothing but original research on a micro-level." I disagree because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles. These are Wikipedia guidelines for how to name a monarch Philip Baird Shearer 15:36, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

They are general guidelines, yes, but can obviously cause some disagreements on intepretation. In this particular case it seems to me as if the general rule is complicated by the enyclopedic usage. And as for the the super-detail of the what you have decided to call "approval voting" is completely irrelevant by your own argumantation. The addition "of Sweden" would be applied to whatever alternative that is seen as the most favorable, and the spelling is really only an issue if you're more interested in petty bureaucracy than an reasonable decision.
I have mentioned this problem on the RfC page, section for article title disputes. By supporting this extremly messy and complicated system of multiple votes on the same issue, you're definetly ruining any chance for outsiders to understand what this is about, let alone what the Hell you've actually voted for.
Peter Isotalo 16:50, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus II Adolphus is not a wikipedism. See here for the google results. john k 18:08, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
647 hits? Are you kidding me? I searched for that myself before, but since everyone considered "Gustav II Adolf" with over 5,000 hits (with Swedish pages, 28k) non-notable enough I figured no one would be silly enough to refer to such a non-notable search. But I guess this really is about choosing the "correct name" according to personal taste rather than going by what's both notable and reasonable.
Peter Isotalo 18:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
I didn't say it was common, I said it was not a wikipedism, which was, I thought, the accusation - that we were making up a name never used. At any rate, I prefer Gustavus II Adolphus because it includes two of the more common English usages - "Gustavus II," which is the usage, for instance, of Columbia encyclopedia, and "Gustavus Adolphus," the most common usage overall. Furthermore, it is non-ambiguous, and follows the official guidelines for titles of articles on monarchs. At any rate, as I said, I would not object to Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, since I think he is sufficiently more famous under that name than Gustav IV and Gustav VI as to be relatively unambiguous. john k 22:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Let me add that, while, indeed, the number of hits for "Gustavus II Adolphus" is not high, the quality of those hits is fairly high - a more than hundred year old organization of Swedish-Americans, a Houghton-Mifflin textbook, the 1911 Britannica...I also wonder about the personal attacks from Karmosin here. This is surely not a subject to which we are all so emotionally committed that we have to get nasty, is it? john k 22:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The 1911 EB is not a particularly good source in this context. Close to 100-year-old sources are generally considered to be irrelevant, especially if they happen to be changed in later editions. And since you completely ignore the quality of the sources when it comes to "Gustav II Adolf", why should you all of a sudden take it into consideration now?
Peter Isotalo 04:13, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

    • Gustavus IV Adolphus and Gustavus VI Adolphus also bore the byname. This title would thus be mildly confusing. That said, Those two are always "Gustavus IV Adolphus" and "Gustaf VI Adolf" (or some such), not usually just "Gustavus Adolphus," so I think this would be okay. john k 13:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Could you show some sources that refer to Gustav IV and Gustav VI as "Gustavus Adolphus"? / Peter Isotalo 19:33, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, this usage does not seem to be prevalent. However, their names are, in fact, the same as that of the more famous Gustavus Adolphus, so they might be called this. As I said, I don't think this is a serious enough objection to warrant objecting to this version. john k 23:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If this article is moved, then you should seriously consider moving these articles also:

If these aren't moved, then this shouldn't be either, if you wan't to be somewhat consistent. /Jebur 06:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Voting style and results interpretation

In true approval voting there is no need for oppose votes, hence the name - people only state which of the presented options they find acceptable. People expressing opposition to an option can be helpful if it is qualified, but that's what the discussion section is for. When it comes to interpreting the results I'm sure it will be clear which option(s) have the most support. As it stands it's clearly between Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden and Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with the latter being favoured most.

Unless there are any objections I will move the article to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden tomorrow. violet/riga (t) 19:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You'd damn sure better not be doing anything "tomorrow" when WP:RM said the voting was extended to June 2.
Futhermore, it is not "approval voting" when the voters have been asked to record votes in opposition. The process is tainted; it stinks worse than week-old fish. Gene Nygaard 02:28, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Please don't jump on me when I'm trying to help. Who do you think extended the deadline? I chose the 2nd of June as an arbitrary date as there was very little discussion going on; since the extension it has progressed greatly. I suggested closing it if everyone was happy - not everyone was. I said it wasn't approval voting and never claimed it was. You may also wish to read my comment at the bottom of this page. violet/riga (t) 10:31, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So why are you having difficulty understanding that the process is tainted, if you said it isn't approval voting, and it isn't approval voting. You have shown your acquiescence in the change by Philip Baird Shearer to a multiple choice, so you presumably acquiesced in his declaration of "approval voting" at the same time, especially since he explicitly tied the two together. Therefore, even saying that that presumption was wrong here isn't enough; the change needs to be made in the explanatory information before the voting. And in either case, neither you nor he have plenary power to make that determination on your own. The vote needs to be redone. Gene Nygaard 12:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This is silly. I don't even understand what you are so concerned about. Why is the fact that this is not proper "approval voting" so important? Furthermore, again, a requested move just isn't a formal process. There is no need to have a vote over a requested move, if some consensus can be arrived at. From the current votes, it appears that the vast majority think the name should be Latinized, one way or the other. There's no reason to get lost in process here. john k 13:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose such a move. Please not that "Gustavus II Adolphus" gets a measly 647 hits on Google. "Gustav II Adolf/Adolph" results in over 7,000 hits when filtered for only English pages and is used by both Encarta and EB. The relevant alternatives are clearly the current page name (with -f or -ph is really beside the point) or Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. The added numeral is just an extrapolation of a historical name that bears absolutely no relevance and is clearly to be considered a form of original research.
Why is it so hard to just set up a properly formatted vote about what the RM originally was about?
Peter Isotalo 19:27, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
The title used in the 1911 Britannica is original research? Don't be absurd. john k 22:42, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
They obviosuly considered it absurd enough themselves to simply change it to Gustav II Addolf in the current edition.
Peter Isotalo 22:54, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
That's a non sequitur. You are saying that "Gustavus II Adolphus" has never been used by anyone, and that those of us in favor of it are making it up. But that is very clearly not the case, since the standard repository of knowledge in the English-language of a century ago used the same title. That they have since stopped has nothing to do with the question of "original research". john k 23:08, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to argue that the usage is archaic, feel free, but don't argue that it's original research, as that claim is clearly nonsense. john k 23:09, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The 1911 edition, of course, was the last British edition of Encyclopædia Britannica. It is a United States encyclopedia now, and has been for all editions after that 11th edition. Still keeps a few British spelling for that archaic flavor, but that's about it. Gene Nygaard 02:31, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
For whatever it is worth, here is the usage of the 1971 Encyclopædia Britannica
  • GUSTAVUS I VASA (Swed. GUSTAV ERIKSSON)
  • GUSTAVUS II ADOLPHUS
  • GUSTAVUS III
  • GUSTAVUS IV (GUSTAF ADOLF)
  • GUSTAVUS V
  • GUSTAVUS VI (GUSTAF ADOLF)
Gene Nygaard 09:10, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Peter. The most reliable source here should be the latest version of Britannica which says "Gustav II Adolf". /Jebur 16:30, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden is the second choice of many here and is acceptable to Peter. Should we agree that we move the article there? I've said on WP:RM that this discussion is extended until 2 June 2005 and I'm not in any rush to do it before then seeing as the talks are ongoing. violet/riga (t) 23:23, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was just trying to get someone to stop the absurd vote above and just make a proper vote, like I tried to do earlier [1] (with notices on the talkpages of those who had voted). I am still in favor of keeping the current title and I think it's a lot more relevant than the pseudo-English Latinized name, which does not seem to be used for any Gustav either before (Gustav Vasa) or after. It just strikes me as coming off like being an equivalent of the Sun King or something like it and I want a proper vote (without double, triple or quadruple votes) on this, not informal decisions when there is no clear consensus.
Peter Isotalo 14:12, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
But I think it is quite clear. Two people support (and four oppose) the current title. Six people support Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. That, to me, shows that the latter is favoured much more than the current title. violet/riga (t) 14:32, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oh sorry. I actually nurtured the illusion that we were going to set up a proper vote that would be understandable to outsiders, with a proper time limit and all, just like any other RM procedure. I guess I was wrong about that.
Peter Isotalo 15:12, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
I think the vote is totally clear and understandable and does in fact have a time limit of a 2 June cut-off. As is usual WP:RM procedure the move can be performed earlier at an admins discetion - it just happens that I suggested the move be done rather than just going ahead and doing it. violet/riga (t) 15:31, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Requested moves is not nearly as formal as, say, deletion, and I'd suggest that it's not even as formal as a content poll would be. It seems fairly clear that Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden would be an appropriate title that would be acceptable to most people, at least. I don't see why we should over-bureaucratize this. As to the other Gustav's, I'd suggest that the first four should all be at latinized versions of the names, as they are more commonly known by that in English. If you want to propose a new standard of using names in the language of the country (which would leave us with Felipe II of Spain), go ahead, although you tell me what we should do with Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. john k 16:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please verify claims before making them. Here are the Google searches, filtered for English pages:
Gustav Vasa 21k — Gustavus Vasa 5,5k
Gustav III 14,8k — Gustavus III 5k
Gustav IV 4,4k — Gustav IV 1k
And, of course, both Encarta and EB list them under their Swedish names. Why this insistance on a rather archaic use of Latinized names?
Peter Isotalo 19:37, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Google searches are worthless for determining much of anything, since most sources on, say, Swedish history are not going to be online, so this only gives us a fairly narrow sample of things. At any rate, using google clearly works against you on Gustavus Adolphus - "Gustav II Adolph" gets 2,370 google hits while "Gustavus Adolphus" gets 124,000, and even when you take out references to "College" to try to exclude discussion of Gustavus Adolphus College, you get 37,900. This is a far more convincing google test than the ones you've been doing on the other kings, since it suggests an overwhelming superiority - only in such instances, I think (as opposed to ones where the two are within fairly narrow range of each other), can the google test have any value. john k 21:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that it's more prominent as well as supported by modern encyclopedias, I'd say it's perfeclty valid. And I'm very skeptical to your assessment of what "prominent enough" actually would be. By the way, how many people outside of the US (or Minnesota, even) do you think have ever heard of GA College? It was also named during a period when Latin was still considered to be the most prestiguous language, an opinion that has changed considerably in the last century. And keeping in mind that the vast majority of English speakers (though as a second language) are not American that would be a pretty good reason to consider it unrelated to the historical figure.
Peter Isotalo 17:51, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

As the number needs to be part of the name to more clearly disambiguate from King G IV A in categories. Gustavus Adolphus and Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden should nevertheless redirect to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden, with a link to Gustavus Adolphus (disambiguation) at the top of the article. The dab page should mention something about the change in English usage, and the Swedish form should be used for Gustav V and Gustav VI Adolf. (We will still have to discuss whether the proper Swedish form ought to be Gustav or Gustaf for the modern kings, but that could be done somewhere else.) (This construction is part of the explanation of my vote, so please don't move the comment, but copy it and reply to it elsewhere if you like.) Tupsharru 07:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We don't have sufficient documentation to claim any "change in English usage". Gene Nygaard 08:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And what change, I might add? From Latin to Swedish or vice versa? And would everyone please note that "Gustavus II Adolphus" is a very rare name form and bring back fewer than 1000 hits on Google.
And, Tupsharru, I know from experience that disambigs at Swedish Wikipedia are often quite misunderstood. Are you sure that you've understood what disambigs are for? The other Gustav Adolfs were to my knowledge seldom, if ever known as "Gustavus Adolphus", so creating a disambig for it seems very superfluous. Could you at least show someone actually using this form for, Gustav VI Adolf and Gustav IV Adolf?
Peter Isotalo 18:11, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
First of all, the variants Gustavus, Adolphus and Gustavus Adolphus are not the Latin forms of the name when used in English. They are variants identical to and derived from the Latin forms, but once incorporated into English, they are actually English forms of the names in question. Gustavus Adolphus is just as Latin and as English as, say, the word campus. It is all is a matter of usage, not etymology. In addition, names of rulers (and a few other categories, such as saints, classical authors etc.) are for various reasons treated differently from those of most other people, as somebody pointed out by referring you to Emperor Charles V. This case is no exception.
Secondly, as for Gustav(us) (II) Adolph(us), we may discuss how common Gustavus Adolphus is in English today compared to some version of the Swedish form, and if and when usage changed. The EB 2004 is evidence of a shift, but as any encyclopedia editor has to chose one or the other, it does not in itself reduce the legitimacy of the other point of view. As many respectable English-language authors (and Swedish authors writing in English) have long used and still use the form Gustavus Adolphus, the issue can not just be brushed away. And as we are not writing 17th century history, but are making an encyclopaedia, we have to deal with issues of consistency and disambiguating between different Swedish rulers of the same name, thus with the issue of whether to use the number (II) in the name rather than plain Gustavus Adolphus. In writing about the Thirty Years War, using Gustavus Adolphus, without a number, would be fine, but in an article title it is more problematic.
Thirdly, as for Gustav(us) III and Gustav(us) IV Adolph(us), I already pointed you to a source for Gustavus (Adolphus) actually being the form used at least by contemporary English writers: The Times from the late 18th and early 19th century, as revealed by a search of the full-text database of that newspaper 1785-1985, (available online with a subscription[2] – you probably have access to it through some library). Unless you can point to some source showing this usage suddenly stopping at some early point after that and being completely replaced with the Swedish form, you will have acknowledge that this is indeed legitimate and historically correct well-attested English usage.
As for contemporary Swedish kings from the late 19th century and later, usage indeed seems to have changed (I am still relying on The Times here), with the Swedish forms being more common. Although I would prefer uniformity in the rendering of the same Swedish name, I am afraid reality is not so consistent and Gustav VI Adolf should probably be referred to under the Swedish form rather than as Gustavus Adolphus (although the reference on this page to the EB 1971 indicates this form being used there). But as already mentioned, we need a discussion of the issue of consistency and disambiguating, and if a move takes place in the case of G II A, the question of other kings of the same Swedish name has to be dealt with and the issue of different English usage for different kings with the same Swedish name needs to be explained somewhere.
Finally, I don't see where the Swedish Wikipedia comes into the picture. I have been editing the English Wikipedia longer than you have, and understand perfectly well what disambigs are for. I urge you to consider reforming your debating style. I think you are generally a competent editor, but your behaviour on discussion pages is less than satisfactory; you come through as much more aggressive than you possibly intend, and I think you should have realized that by now. In this particular case, your unwillingness to even accept the legitimacy of the other POV only leads to further polarization over the issue, rather than that of arriving at a reasonable consensus, which should be the goal. Tupsharru 09:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That you keep insisting on "uniformity" and "historical usage" as argumentation is probably the reason for why I'm being fairly aggressive (I'd call it "very insistent"). Both are entirely irrelevnt, since neither are applicable to article titles. We're supposed to reflect current usage. That's either "Gustavus Adolphus" or "Gustav II Adolf/ph". Anything else is really just floating off into theories of what's "correct". And the reason that I don't accept your POV is because I believe it is based on very flawed argumentation.
And seriously... You want to blame me merely for not wanting to reach consensus because I think the decision is wrong? Try to cut down on the "debating style"-comments just a tad if you're so eager about harmonious debates.
Peter Isotalo 12:29, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Proposed move to Gustavus Adolphus

Is anyone actually proposing a move to this specific location? It is really sloppy that this is the "official" version we are discussing, when nobody actually wants such a move. john k 16:26, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Someone did propose it, but when it was pointed out that "of Sweden" should be added to be consistant with nearly every other monarch of a country, that was widely agreed to. As was said above, move requests do evolve with discussion. Jonathunder 18:05, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

I must protest

I came here at the somewhat desperate plea of Peter Isotalo, to take a look at the vote, and I must protest. I agree with Peter and Gene Nygaard that there is no interpreting the vote as it stands at present. I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm sure everybody's been doing their best, but Philip Baird Shearer's interpretation of Approval voting contradicts the article he links to, and contradicts itself internally also. It really won't do to have one instruction above the vote (Add **Support followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote) and the opposite instruction below it (Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals)! The first is approval voting, the second is not, and as Gene Nygaard says, the difference is significant. But let's try ignoring the specifics of approval voting for now, and just look at the fact that there is no telling which of the instructions voters have gone by, or have even noticed. Perhaps they've rolled their own compromise, or shut their eyes and pointed, I think that's what I would have done. How can we count oppose votes, when people didn't know whether to submit them or not? But how can we not count oppose votes, when people have submitted them and meant them to stand for something? Violet, you know how much I respect your work, but I suggest you too may easily have missed (in the general mess above) the contradictory instructions. Please don't move the article yet.

At the same time, Peter, while I understand your original call for a two-alternative vote, and reference to the vote at Talk:Swedish Social Democratic Party, the time for that is past, it can only confuse the issue further. I know that a coherent voting procedure is what you want, with alternatives the voters can understand and an outcome that can be interpreted, and by now approval voting offers the best chance of that. Five alternative names have been suggested now, not two. Even if the "of Sweden" is broken out because it will be added to any alternative chosen, it's still more than two. Bishonen | talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposal

After the trouble the voters have put in, I'm very sorry to suggest this, but it does have the virtue of being simple: set up an approval voting process with support votes only. Peter, perhaps you could do it, if Violet approves? Separate out the "of Sweden" business if there is consensus for doing that. And you and everybody else else should stop worrying about some of the proposed alternatives being in your view absurd. If they are absurd, they won't win the vote, surely. The arguments already made for and against the various alternatives may be consulted above, and need not in my view be repeated below: I suggest that new points only, and the approval vote itself, need be added below this line. (Please note btw that alternative 5 on the vote above has become doubled, and the voting on 5 and its ghost 6 is forking.) (No it hadn't, it was Gustav/Gustaf!) Bishonen | talk 23:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll present my interpretations, breaking it down by option:
  • Gustav II Adolph of Sweden
The current title, has some support
  • Gustavus Adolphus
The actual suggested title at WP:RM, has no support
  • Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden
Favoured support from many people
  • Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden
Support from many people
  • Gustav II Adolf of Sweden
A little support
  • Gustaf II Adolf of Sweden
No support
My suggestion would therefore be to have a proper approval vote between the following:
  • Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden
  • Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden
  • No rename
This would reflect the voting that has gone in, taking it to more of a run-off and having fewer options to complicate matters. violet/riga (t) 00:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That sounds acceptable to me. Note that if the meaning of the earlier vote had merely been somewhat vague and unclear, I would not have protested as much as I did when it had mutually contradictory instructions.
I agree that the "of Sweden" issue be set aside, since once it was raised and explained, there didn't seem to me much objection to it. Maybe "Gustav II Adolf of Sweden" should remain an alternative, too? I don't really care either way, but that appeared to be the primary preference of our one participant who did not fully take part in the voting as it was set up before, limiting himself to what he insisted were the only two options available, the one proposed on requests for moves and the status quo.
This is unlike the other argument I'm having with you about inappropriate use of approval voting to set policy, in a situation where you do not have discrete options. Here we are choosing one candidate from a few of them to fill the one available slot for a title of this article—and even the losers should get nearly as much, with a redirect and the ability to be linked here using that name.
This time, I hope Peter joins us in indicating those that we each find acceptable. Gene Nygaard 03:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think violet's proposal above is very good. Please use it for the second, proper vote.
Peter Isotalo 04:04, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

And I think it is a waste of time. Peter can you realy not tell which option is the most popular from the votes cast above? Bishonen who seems to be a disenterested party (as he/she has not cast a vote) can interpret the results, as can Gene Nygaard, violetriga and I. So why can't you? We can go throught the motions of another vote but why bother? This proposed re-vote reminds me of being on the first flight out of London to Frankfurt on a Monday morning. The flight is always full with the same people commuting, and if anyone does not know how to put on their seat belt by now they really should not be flying, the announcement explaining how to do it, although a requirement, is a waste of everyone's time. Philip Baird Shearer 15:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Don't count me among those willing to come to a conclusion based on a flawed procedure. Just join us in doing it better this time around. Gene Nygaard 15:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind a revote, although, again, the obsession with a "flawed procedure" seems counterproductive. The winner of this vote (Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, which is, I will note, not my preferred option), seems fairly clear. But, whatever. I would add, though, that while I think the name should be latinized/anglicized, if we decide it should not be, I cannot see why it should be at the location it is now. Why shouldn't it be consistent with Gustav IV Adolf of Sweden and Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden? Gustav II Adolf of Sweden has also been demonstrated to be much more common than Gustav II Adolph of Sweden. The "f" variant should definitely be included, I think. john k 18:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Philip, I must subtract myself, as Gene does, from your list of people willing to interpret the old vote with its contradictory instructions. I agree with John about including the Gustav II Adolf of Sweden alternative, especially as it's the standard spelling in Sweden, compare its use in Swedish Wikipedia. That wouldn't matter if there was an English preference for Gustav II Adolph of Sweden (a spelling so extravagantly unfamiliar to Swedes that it's not even a redirect in sv.wiki), but as John points out, the opposite is the case. With a figure this familiar to Swedes, and this "Who..?" to anglophones, it seems likely the straight-up Swedish spelling is influencing English usage already, "incorrectly" or not. Bishonen | talk 19:47, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus Adolphus is "Who...?" to Anglophones? On what basis do you say this? He is almost certainly the most famous Swede to most Anglophones. Surely more famous than Charles XII of Sweden, who is nevertheless at an anglicized form of the name, and who is never referred to as "Carl XII" in my experience. More famous than his daughter, who is, so far as I am aware, never referred to as "Kristina". Obviously, any figure from European history isn't familiar to most Americans, and probably most continental figures aren't terribly familiar to most Anglophones in general, but Gustavus Adolphus is surely among the best known continental personages of the seventeenth century (Other than Richelieu and Louis XIV, he is probably the most famous political figure of the century) john k 00:09, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure you're right, sorry if I sounded flippant. I only meant that anglophones are having a fairly good day if they can name any 17th-century continental personage. I didn't mean to electioneer for the Gustav II Adolf of Sweden alternative, merely to endorse your own suggestion that it be included in the vote. Bishonen | talk 06:19, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This a project to write an encyclopaedia, not a project to create a European constitution. What ever my thoughts on this issue obviously there are a number of people who think style is more important than substance, so I will participate in another vote but it is a waste of everyone's time when there are better things to be doing on this project. BTW the best known C17th continental in the English speaking world is almost certainly William of Orange seeing as he has been in the news every July 12 for the last 30 years. Philip Baird Shearer 11:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Second vote

Please indicate which of the proposed names you support – you can vote for as many as you like but please do not oppose any of them. Results will be interpreted by violet/riga (t) towards the end of 7 June 2005 using normal approval voting practices.

Is there any good reason for casting more than one support vote? Is it really that hard to decide on one alternative?
Peter Isotalo 21:39, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
As proven below some people don't mind which it is between two alternatives. It's usually the best way when there's more than one choice. violet/riga (t) 21:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden
  1. Support Gene Nygaard 12:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  2. Support john k 18:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  3. Support Philip Baird Shearer 22:41, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden
  1. Support the most common name in English, and the winner of the vote last time. No Account
  2. Support but do not prefer. Septentrionalis
  3. Support the winner of the last vote. Strongly oppose all others. Very strongly object to the practice of running the vote again until someone gets a desired result. CDThieme 18:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  4. Mild support DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  5. Support the outcome of the last vote, on principle, even though it was not my first choice last time. Jonathunder 23:56, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
Gustavus Adolphus
  1. Support The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  2. Support If the name is to change at all, this is the best known form to english speakers with limited knowledge of the period. DES 20:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gustav II Adolf of Sweden
  1. Support Gene Nygaard 12:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  2. Support DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  3. Strong support Jebur 20:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  4. Support. I don't see the point of keeping "Adolph" seperate, though. The title with "-f" is certainly better, but either is acceptable (and is certainly nothing worth voting on). And no matter which alternative gets the most votes, it should not be seen as a vote on "consistent naming" of other kings (least of all Gustav Vasa). This vote is about this article. Period. / Peter Isotalo 00:35, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Gustav II Adolph of Sweden (no rename)
  1. Support Gene Nygaard 12:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  2. Support Williamborg 14:34, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC
  3. Strong support This is the most correct form. Redirects from other forms ought to handle those who know a different form better. That's what redirects are for. DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Gustavus Adolphus

The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why is Gustavus Adolphus a choice here? Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 18:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

this was the suggested form for the original renaming proposal. I think it should be an option, and it would be my second choice, after no change.DES 20:29, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Specifically: Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}". This would suggest Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden or Gustav II Adolf of Sweden as the appropriate title. john k 18:41, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree and have removed the addition of that option (added after the vote commenced). While we are able to vote on the name we still need to stick with naming conventions. violet/riga (t) 18:52, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the naming conventions also say: If a person is best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't exactly fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion. It is at least arguable that GA is a case that fits this rule, and so "of sweden" shold be ommitted. At least it is arguable enough that such an alternative should be allowed on the list for voting. Last I heard, it was permitted to add choices to a rename list while the vote is in progress.DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do you know what a cognomen is? "Adolphus" isn't one - it is part of his name. john k 23:14, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes I do. I was arguing that this came under the provision "...or by a name that doesn't exactly fit the guidelines above...". Sorry if that wasn't clear. DES 02:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this rename? If the object is to have the most common possible search term be the actual title of the article, without a redirect, then the choice should be Gustavus Adolphus with no number, and no "of sweden". If the object is to have the most correct form, then it should be either Gustav II Adolph or Gustav II Adolf (I don't have a strong view on "ph" vs "f"). In any case Gustavus II Adolphus is a form not used historically, (by which I mean, in this case, at the time this monarch was alive, or not much thereafter) nor commonly used in modern accounts. DES

It was certainly used historically - as recently as the 1971 Britannica, for instance. As to "of Sweden" that is mandated by our naming conventions. john k 23:15, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1971 isn't "historically" and is still completely pointless to quote when EB has changed the naming. At least try finding something that confirms the use within a century of his death if you want to claim historical usage. / Peter Isotalo 00:35, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Is that what "historically" means? I would suggest "contemporary" is the meaning you're looking for. I would have thought that "used historically" means "used at some point in the past." john k 00:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, the name is also still in some modern use, at least. I don't have many of my books anymore, having passed my exams and discarded them all as quickly as possible, but my Harper Encyclopedia of Military History from 1993 calls him "Gustavus II (Adolphus)". I don't have much else that is both recent and would cover old Gustavus Adolphus, but I'll try to look later this week and provide some references. john k 00:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In any case, redircts from all forms suggested should be made to which ever form is chosen, and a dab page for other swedish monarchs of similar names should be created. This should remove the actual problems whatever choice is made here.DES 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The actual usual form in English. Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests using nationality for disambiguation, which will not be necessary here, unless some non-Swedish Gustavus Adolphus can be found. Compare Alexander the Great. (As a native Anglophone, I add that GA is probably the best known of the Swedish monarchs, with Christina of Sweden as runner-up). The 1911 Britannica uses Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus alternatively in its text. Septentrionalis 17:23, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions suggests that one looks at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles for more details and that page says: "the names of monarchs of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"." It does not say that this is for disambiguation. Your example of "Alexander the Great" is not a good one because he is a king from the classical period (not king of a modern country). A better example would be Peter the Great which is a redirect to Peter I of Russia which is his name as known in English (not in Russian (Pyotr Pyervyi)). Philip Baird Shearer 00:03, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do we really have to quote naming conventions to grasp that the nationalities are for disambiguation? Alexander the Great could just as well be "Alexander III of Macedonia". I think it's safe to say that "nationality" in this context includes classical kingdoms as well as more modern nation-states.
By the way, "Pyotr pervyi" simply means Peter I; the info in our article seems mistaken. Пётр Великий (Peter the Great, of course) is what Russians use most commonly as far as I know.
Peter Isotalo 00:24, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Alexander III of Macedon, surely. At any rate, the nationalities are explicitly, not for disambiguation. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, for instance, despite there not being any other monarch called "Elizabeth II." Pope Benedict XVI, although there has not been any non-pope that I am aware of called Benedict XVI. And so forth. If you think this is a bad convention, go there and argue about it, but it is the convention. john k 00:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The wording is for modern countries Alexander was not king of a modern country. Nor for that matter was Alfred the Great. William I of England is better known as William the Conqueror but as the entry follows the naming conventions it is under William I as the first king of modern England. The disambiguation is for ordinal not country Philip Baird Shearer 01:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)