Talk:Calgary

Road and address numbering system

While I agree that the road numbering information is trivial to Calgarians, I believe it relieves a significant source of confusion to first-time visitors to Calgary - no other city that I know of has the numbering system Calgary does, with the exception of Edmonton, which also includes the street numbering information in its article, possibly for the same reasons (different author).

Respectfully, I need to disagree with the notion that “Wikipedia articles should attempt to remain somewhat general” -- many Wikipedia articles are extremely detailed, as they should be, and for Wikipedia to provide maximum value to the widest possible audience, arbitrary limits should not be imposed on level of detail. There are no limits to the breadth of articles, and it's not clear to me why there would be arbitrary limits to their depth.

By deleting the section, we are excluding an important audience (that of first-timers to Calgary). Someone help out please, and vote to reinsert the information (that is, if anybody agrees). Anybody? It sure is quiet out there...

[Anonymous]

Add my voice to those who want street numbering mentioned, if it is unique to Calgary. I am not clear at all on how Calgary's system is different. So, it should be mentioned both what is in Calgary, and what is in other cities. I always assumed our street/avenue numbering system was typical for cities with standard rectangular blocks. If I'm wrong, I'ld like an explanation. The above comment makes an excellent point, that this article should be geared more to visitors, who want to learn more about the city.

Actually, Calgary's numbering system is not quite the same as Edmonton's. Edmonton centres on 100 Ave & 100 St and does not have quadrants. I am not aware of another city that has a similar system as Calgary. -- James Teterenko (talk) 21:13, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Okay. I understand what you're saying. However, I do believe that certian Wikipedia articles such as Calgary's must stay general to an extent, and only because it is discussing the city as a whole, which is relatively general subject matter. You are absolutely right in saying that Wikipedia does have specific articles, but they are accompanied by specific article titles. For example, the article entitled "Calgary" lacks specific information on the Calgary Zoo. However, there is also and article entitled "The Calgary Zoo" to field that information. In this instance, since Calgary does have a somewhat unique street system, it could be worthwhile to make a new article specfically regarding the street system. I'll leave this to your discretion. If this content does find its way back into the main article (I will not delete it again -- although I cannot speak for others), then I think it should be shortened if only to maintain the flow of the article. PS: There are soft limits on the length or articles (although not the breadth), which is 32kb. Thus, if an article such as this one is to remain both small AND diverse, then one must be selective about the information that is presented. - Tyson2k

With regard to the inclusion of the street system in Edmonton's article: that article is so short and lacking in relevant information, that it may very well have been placed there only to take up space :)

+ + + + + +

The section that was on this page earlier regarding the street numbering and naming system was removed because the information provided was relatively trivial. Wikipedia articles should attempt to remain somewhat general. This kind of information only adds needlessly to the length of an already lengthy article. This is the kind of information that belongs in a "road atlas", not a general reference article. If it is determined to be genuinely important (and I'm skeptical of this), then it should be significantly shortened, or perhaps even made into its own article... this is not up to me, and I don't think its necessary, however. -Tyson2k

Here is the passage:

Road and address numbering system

In Calgary, roads and addresses are numbered relative to the intersection of "Centre Avenue and Centre Street", which is the logical centre of the city. Avenues run east-west (parallel to Centre Avenue), and streets run north-south (parallel to Centre Street). Roads and addresses are also given a quadrant designator relative to the centre: Northwest (NW), Northeast (NE), Southwest (SW), and Southeast (SE).

Street numbers increase with distance west or east of Centre Street (for example, 14th Street West is 14 blocks west of Centre Street, and about 4 blocks farther west than 10th Street West)

Avenue numbers increase with distance north or south of Centre Avenue (for example, 16th Avenue North is 16 blocks north of Centre Avenue, and 4 blocks south of 20th Avenue North).

Note that due to topography and obstructions, numbered streets and avenues are sometimes separated into disjoint pieces. For example, Centre Avenue only logically intersects with Centre Street -- physically, Centre Avenue is broken into sections east and west of Centre Street, on other sides of the obstruction created by the Bow River.

Addresses with odd numbers are located on the west side of a (north-south) street, or on the south side of an (east-west) avenue; conversely, even-numbered addresses are located on the east side of any street, or the north side of any avenue.

The basic numbered streets and avenues are complemented with major thoroughfares known as "trails", which are given names that honour Calgary's rich western and native North American culture -- examples include Sarcee Trail, Stony Trail, Shaganappi Trail, Deerfoot Trail, Crowchild Trail, Blackfoot Trail, etc.

First off, can people please start signing their comments? Hard to follow which ones came first and which ones came next. Regarding the paragraph regarding the grid pattern and its numbering system is an important future to the city's urban planning and has been attributed to the ease of navigation praised by visitors. I agree the exact delineation of the quadrant border IS trivial, however. As far as I know, Edmonton is also divided by quadrants, but its used is not as vital as that of Calgary. I think the version of the paragraph I have accountered at the time of my first edit of it is just right. --Kvasir 15:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Richest ?

Where do they come up with the line that Calgary is Canada's richest city based on per capita income? I thought Oakville Ontario had the highest. Also, when stating that Calgary is the 3rd largest city in Canada, this is refering to the city proper which encompasses the entire urban area. It is a little misleading. Vancouver and Ottawa are smaller in population within the city proper, but when looked at from a continuous urban area, they are larger in population. 1:24, nov 24, 2004 BF

This page refers to the city proper, and nothing else, so I don't think it is misleading. Earl Andrew 07:55, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fastest growing ?

Could someone please tell me where the data comes from interms of Calgary having the fastest growing population. When I checked the Statscan website, the latest available was for 2002/03 and it showed Oshawa, Ont. having the fastest growing population followed by Toronto. Furthermore, when I looked at Statscan's Airport Movements Report, Toronto's Pearson consistently had the highest volume of what it classifies as "private" aircraft movements which is what corporate falls under. As well, where do you get that it has the highest concentration of wealthy entrepreneurs under 40? How do you define a wealthy entrepreneur? 3:34, Dec 11 2004 BF

When I checked CNSNEWS.COM, they reported the # of Americans living in Toronto at 250 000 and Vancouver's American pop at 200 000. This is fairly similar to what is reported in the US state department's website. Since when did 80 000 become greater than 250 000? If you are going to use stats, please make sure that they are fairly accurate, otherwise it makes a mockery of what what is being said about Calgary. 18:50 Dec 12, 2004 BF

You must realize that it is 80,000 in Calgary itself as there aren't really any suburbs. Whereas Vancouver and Toronto's 250,000 are spread over other cities (ie suburbs).

What is your source for this? Nowhere did I see that the 250 000 figure is for the entire GTA, but Toronto, besides, according to the above mentioned sources, more Americans live in Mexico city than any other city outside the USA. Furthermore, according to the last statscan census, the immigrant population by place of birth for Calgary shows about 10 000 stating USA. BF

Considering that the population of Vancouver itself is just over 500,000 people I doubt that more than 30% of Vancouver is American to put your numbers in perspective. Toronto I agree its possible. I personally didn't put that paragraph in anyways but I have seen in past statscan reports that Calgary as a city does indeed have the highest portion of people with american citizenship living in it.--Djsasso 05:29, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Second Most Head offices ?

Could someone please tell me what the source is for Calgary having the 2nd highest concentration of head offices in Canada is? When I checked statscan, all I could find was the number of head office workers and it showed Montreal as having the 2nd highest number of employees after Toronto.

In an article by Bruce Little in the Globe and Mail last year, he stated that Vancouver actually had the 2nd highest number of head offices in Canada although Calgary did have more head office workers than Vancouver did. But Montreal still ranked second in terms of # of head office workers.

This is actually a very widely known and well published fact. Information is not hard to find. Calgary definitely has the second highest concentration of head offices in the country. Other cities such as Vancouver and Montreal have only more offices that Calgary in certain sectors, not overall. Here is one link, [1]. Just do a Google

search

I don't think that this link is as objective as Statscan's. I tend to believe their research more than that of the Calgary Business Development Association. Especially when I see a statement like "it is home to all of Canada's leading financial, law and accounting firms." I never knew that the major banks considered Calgary to be their home. Are there any other websites re:head offices that you can direct me to, especially where the number of head offices by city is listed?

Try Emporis. They are database company based in Germany whom I believe to be reasonably unbiased [2]. This fact commonly appears in newspaper articles as well (it is by NO MEANS obscure). I would reference the articles if there wasn't a charge associated with accessing their archives. Unfortunately, StatsCan does not do research of this sort as it is outside of typical demographic issues. I do notice, however a StatsCan article indicating the Montreal has a higher number of people employed in head offices than does Calgary. This statistic (although it is old and things have changed massively recently) is correct, it does not reflect the gross number of head offices in the city. Actually, I believe that a majority of your confusion stems from this fact. This is the realm of business and economics, which is why trusting the "Calgary Business Development Association" should not be so far fetched. I will try to find hard numbers for you... I do recall seeing them before. In addition, Calgary is home to a number of major REGIONAL offices for banks and law firms (including most of the largest).

Here is another link from CBC [3].

When I checked the Toronto Stock Exchange's website, it showed well over 100 firms with head offices listed in Vancouver. The claim that Calgary has the 2nd most head offices may commonly appear in some papers, but this is not what I saw in an article by economist Bruce Little in the GLobe and Mail last year. The claim to 2nd most head offices may just be an urban myth that keeps feeding on itself. You are correct in stating that this is the realm of business and economics, however business development associations are there to "toot" their own horn and sell their cities, as a result the information they provide may not be totally accurate or may be skewed. All that I ask is for the source of the study that ranks Calgary second, along with an accompanying explanation. So far, the only one in existence re: rankings of head offices and cities that I have found comes from statscan.

Falsifying data is generally not in the best interest of an organization such as the Calgary Business Development Association. At worst (and reasonably likely), the data has been skewed. Regardless, trying to find hard numbers for you has proven to be generally fruitless, as they are extremely inconsistent. I have seen many sources citing 76 for Calgary. The Macleans article that I have included here [4] indicates a number of 204. I have also seen numbers of over 500! Likewise for other cities. In fact, anytime I read anything about Montreal, the article usually points out that the city is continually losing head offices to other centres. Vancouver may have 100 companies listed on the TSX, but this number is otherwise useless. Neither you nor I know how these numbers are determined, and since I have seen such a wide range of values, it is not likely that these methods are consistent anyway. In fact, what definition of "head office" or "corporate head office" is being used here? Does it include regional offices? Does it include any unincorporated companies? Is it only companies on the FP500? If it is really bothering you, it may be worthwhile to phone the Calgary Business Development Association yourself to ask them where their data comes from. However, for the sake of general knowledge, and certainly for the purposes of Wikipedia, it is probably fair to assume that Calgary sits at number 2. I say this only because of the shear number of sources I have seen that support this case; Bruce Little's article being the only exception so far. Some of the more notable sources that I have seen publish this data (many on numerous occasions) include: The Calgary Herald, The Calgary Sun, the National Post, The Financial Post, Maclean's Magazine, The Edmonton Journal, CBC, The World Book Encyclopedia, Emporis, The University of Calgary, and a large number of websites (some of which are in the business of promoting Calgary, and some of which are third party). I would like to think that myths do not self-perpetuate to such a great extent (without the meddling of the US goverment of course), especially when fact checking companies like Emporis are involved. If you would like to despute Calgary's place based only on the number of firms listed on the TSX and Bruce Little's Globe and Mail article, then be my guest. However, I would be inclined to figure out where these numbers actually came from first. I too would like to know what you find. Until there is substantial media indicating otherwise, Calgary's status as number 2 should be regarded as "fact", at least for the purposes of this article.

You are correct in saying that there is much ambiguity in the number of head offices. This is why it is perhaps not a very meaningful statistic. Furthermore, it is also why why statscan does not publish head office data based on # of units, but on number of managerial employees. I have spoken with the econometricians at statscan who have worked on such studies (their names and contact #s can be found at the end of the studies found on the statscan website)they believe that the number of units is meaningless due to the fact that for tax and liability issues some companys set up many other companys. For example,a bank may have several other companies created. Thus the number of head office units is more a reflection of these legal issues than of other economic factors. If the law is such that a company is better off setting up other divisions rather than keeping one company unit, then more units are created with employees shuffled off under these units. You state that the Financial Post also states that Calgary has the 2nd highest # of head offices. In a January 2005 report, they also state that Quebec has more of the FP500 head offices than Alberta, 156 to 104, respectively. Since head offices are usually located in major cities, then we can most likely assume that Montreal has more of the FP500 head offices than Calgary. Hence since what exactly is meant by head office and head office units is ambiguous, then to state that Calgary has the second most head offices units is itself an ambiguous statement and therefore should not be considered as a fact. A more accurate statement would be to say, based on Statscan's most recent study which is slightly more than a year old that Calgary has the third highest number of head office employees. This study showed that Montreal had about 35000 head office workers compared to Calgary's 16 000. I doubt it that Calgary has surpassed Montreal in this regard since this study was carried out. Statscan is a highly respected non-biased institution that all Canadians pay for. It is there to report facts as accuartely as possible. It is not there to push a cause for some particular group. If we wish this site to be accurate, then perhaps we should strive to make it as least ambiguous as possible.

Calgary's layout

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of information on the city's layout or urban characteristics. This is especially worth mentioning because Calgary is (I think) one of the cities with the lowest ratio of people to space.

Although this may be a different reference to Calgary's layout (or a reference in a different manner) but should the map thing at the bottom of the page not have 'Chestermere' to the east as opposed to Strathmore? It is closer and although nearly considered a part of Calgary, I believe it is on much the same scale as Airdrie.

Population wise no. Chestermere has around 5000 people (I think) and Airdrie approx 20,000. Strathmore has about 15,000

Those populations are much higher now. More like 25,000 for Airdrie and 7,000 or 8,000 for Chestermere.

Downtown Streets

Not at all. The streets could only be considered too narrow for cars. For pedestrians they are just great. And one of the best parts of living downtown is that you don't really need a car... -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:35, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

Yes but the auto problem is confounded by the need for pedestrian use. Stephen Avenue Mall is a very narrow street. To the south, the 2nd & 3rd highest buildings in Calgary block out the sun for most of the day! If only we could shrink the blocks. I guess the solution to that is Calgary's +15 system. But Derek Ross, You are a very small portion of the population. The majority of the population live in the suburbs vs. downtown. The rest of the people who live downtown, generally go down to the beltline/Lower Mount Royal area for the evening, vs stay downtown and go out for dinner there! Downtown really needs some revitalization!

I think if you looked at other cities, you would see that most of them have elongate blocks of similar length to Calgary's. Stephen Avenue Mall and Barclay Mall are both plenty wide for pedestrian streets, as long as there is not much traffic (and Stephen Ave is closed to traffic during the day). The major automobile thouroughfares like 9th, 6th, 4th, 5th, 1st St., etc. are all sufficiently wide for traffic at 4-6 lanes ONE WAY a piece. Anyway, the goal should be to reduce automobile traffic, so narrow driving streets (like you might find in London or New York) might not be all that bad.

Well, sure, you're right there! But the Beltline isn't that far from Downtown anyway. I lived on 12 Avenue SW for a while and I found that I could walk to Downtown, the Beltline, or Lower Mount Royal in about twenty minutes or so. Admittedly it was a bit chilly in the winter but that's what thermal underwear is for ! And like you say, the +15 system is pretty good when you're actually walking around Downtown itself. Nowadays I'm living in the northern suburbs, so I normally use the bus and the C-train to get Downtown but on the odd occasion when I have to drive there, I find that the biggest problem is the expense of parking (which is why I generally use public transport). -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:13, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)

You can't live that far north if you take the C-train. -- Anon

True enough if I just took the C-train but as I said, I take the bus and the C-train. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:00, 2005 Jan 20 (UTC)

Sorry Missed that.

Would someone like to fix the wording at the end of the transportation section. The Streets do start at 0 but the addresses start at 100. I'm not sure how to word it...

I think the wording that is currently there that says the number starts at 100 is great the way it is. --Djsasso 16:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The numbering starts at 100 for Avenue addresses but at 0 for Streets. This really confused me my first year in Calgary. I have updated the article to reflect this and included links to Google maps for the example addresses. -- JamesTeterenko 17:19, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Ahh don't think i had ever noticed that. --Djsasso 19:24, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Metropolitan area

Simple edit of 'Mackenzie' area changed to 'McKenzie' to reflect spelling error :) - CanuckGod

Just a little FYI. Calgary's Metropolitan area is from Crossfield in the north west for a bit and south to Highway 22X and along the Bow river. Our population is the people in that space divided by that space. Mainly Agricultural lands. Edmontons is so big because it encompasses all the way around the city!

You refer to Calgary's metropolitan area as StatsCan sees it (the CMA). And you're right... it does not include very much south of 22X. However, the province sees it differently. In fact, the population of the Calgary Region (roughly the same boundaries as the Calgary Health Region) is much closer to 1.1 million. As for Edmonton, it has an abnormally large CMA. It's something like 10,000 sq. km. I think this makes that city's metropolitan area among the most expansive in N.America (and probably one of the least dense too).

Typical... The Federal Government and the Province never agree. If Paul Martin makes sense, Ralph doesn't if Ralph does Paul doesn't! Having 4 people living on 40 acres would really shrink the density of a CMA. Toronto's CMA is virtually built up vs. agriculture in Alberta.

Nashville of the North?

Who wrote "Calgary is affectionately called the Nashville of the North"? This is not true. Calgary has almost no music recording industry. There's an "active country" scene once a year during Stampede, which sees country music being played, not recorded. Nashville is a recording centre. Also, Nashville North implies something like the "opry". Nothing in Calgary resembles that. Hopefully the author will delete this.

I am not too familiar with the country scene and Calgary, and I would never refer to Calgary as Nashville North. However, I have heard the term tossed around in Calgary a few times. Country music is fairly popular here, especially when compared to other Canadian cities. I do not see any statement in that paragraph that is inaccurate. Whether that name is appropriate or fair to the country music industry in Nashville is an entirely different issue. The article as it is currently worded does not claim that Calgary has a music recording industry. -- JamesTeterenko 21:51, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It also is the location of the Canadian Country Music Hall of Fame.--Djsasso 19:39, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And the annual Canadian Country Music Awards.

Urban footprint

In the 4th paragraph, it says "Geographically, Calgary has a larger urban footprint than Los Angeles." The area of Calgary is approximately, as listed in Wikipedia, 712 sq km, and that of L.A. is 1290 sq km. The author should clarify or correct this. -- User:Marcwenger

There is no single "author". If you think that it is wrong, you should have corrected it yourself. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:56, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Calgary has a smaller land area than LA. LA is among the most sprawling cities in N. America, and this comparison did not seem accurate. I too, found 1290 sq. km for Los Angeles. I will adjust this in the article. Calgary's land area is much closer to that of New York City (proper), and I feel that this is a more telling comparison anyway. -- Anonymous Editor

That's more like it! Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:22, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Move from Calgary, Alberta to Calgary

...since there are no other Calgarys (if any) disambiguated in the page. Once more Calgarys (if any) get article, this can be moved back. -- Paddu 15:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But there is already an article for another Calgary, Calgary, Mull, so I'd better move it back immediately. Please discuss this sort of move before making it rather than afterwards. You've now caused a bunch of double redirects which didn't previously exist. You've also ignored the standard naming convention for Canadian towns and cities. To fix this I have moved the article back until a proper discussion can take place. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:00, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's not completely true. Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal ignore convention. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just an interesting note... There is also another Calgary. This one is in Eastern Texas.

Demogrphics

I had some problems with the "demographics" paragraph that was added on June 8 and I thought I should explain why I rewrote it. Firstly, I have no clue why it was haphazardly appended to the "History" section. Secondly, I checked the statistics with StatsCan and had to change a few. The author also stated that the city's population would increase by 100,000 by 2006 and that the population would be composed of 83.2% Caucasians by then. I am of the mind that statistics that project beyond the current year are not useful when describing the demogrphics of a place. They are good for trends only and are usually wrong anyway. I would also like to know what the author meant by, "1 in 4 Calgarians are non-professors"...? I suspect this refers to atheism, in which case it was very unclear. For now, it's been removed. I also had to fix the grammer.

I will quote the original paragraph in case anyone takes issue with my changes:

"The city of Calgary is booming, and it's age groups prove it. About 20% of the population is under 14, and only 9% is over 65 years of age. The older population rate is one of the lowest in Canada. High fertility, internal migration and international migrants are expanding the city rapidly.

By 2006, it is expected that Calgary's population will climb 100 000 people. Around 83.2% is White (2006 est.) and the White population consists mostly of those who are English, Ukrainian, and a small number of Italian. 5.9% of the population is Chinese, 4.6% Asian, 2% Filipino, and 1.6% Black. The remainder is mixed, non-White Hispanic, and West Asian. Christians are the largest religious group number 67%. 1 in 4 Calgarians are non-professors. Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and Jewish make up smaller percentages."

-Tyson2k

Why does this article extend past the normal horizontal length?

On Mozilla Firefox, this article (not this talk page) seems to be extending too far horizontally, creating that annoying horizontal scroll bar. -Grick(^{talk to me!}) 04:59, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't for me on FireFox....its probably your own personal settings that is doing it. --Djsasso 00:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm running Firefox as well and it does extend. Phoenix2 02:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It also extends on IE. A little investigation indicates that it's something in the {{Canadian City}} section that's causing the extension. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:04, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)