Talk:Industrial Revolution/Archive 1

The concept of industrial revolution is so central to our conception of what it is to be modern and what it is for a society to 'develop' (tricky concepts, I know) that this ideally needs to be broadened beyond an account of industrial revolution in 18th century onwards Europe. How is industrial revolution essential in producing a modern society, or how has it been at least? What have the essential processes been, in what cultural circumstances? Generalisations from Europe often fail in analysing other countries, even in successful revolutions like Japan's. --Rich Shore 13:14, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--- Historians who cover the 17th and 18th centuries consider that the modern period starts before the industrial revolution. Things like the Scientific revolution of the 17th century come into play, and so does the phenomenon of the The Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century. The industrial revolution in Japan is an interesting phenomenon, comparable to the industrial revolution in Russia in more ways than one. In both cases a new interest in Natural Philosophy (later to be known as Science) predated the top-down industrialisation, so many sections of the elites and the merchants were ready, mentally, for the industrial change. --AlainV 03:44, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--- what about oxen and wind power? They were used to power grist mills and pumps, were they never used to drive machinery?

Oxen and wind were used, but wind is sporatic, and oxen do not provide the horsepower or force that steam power can provide, nor in such a controlled fashion.

my opinion, Mike Dill

Wasn't the revolution more in the 19th century than the 18th? -rmhermen

The Industrial Revolution was definitely underway in Britain by 1750, and had started to spread to the Low Countries by 1800. Much of the rest of the world joined up in the 1800s, but that's rather like the spread of the Renaissance (1400s in Italy, 1600s in Britain). Like ripples of water spreading from a point source.-- PaulDrye

Didn't the transition cause a wave of rural poverty (and consequently an increase in crime) and a drift to the cities? I thought one of the major reasons for the growth in crime in the 18th century (and thus the impetus for transportation to Australia) was the unemployment the transition caused. --Robert Merkel

In a word, yes. Standards of living dropped enormously, and did not recover until (from memory) the late 19th Century. More generally, the article needs a comprehensive re-write. As it stands, it follows a very shallow technocratic line which belongs to the "Kings and Queens of England" school of history popular in the 1940s. The rise of the factory, for example, preceeded industrial machinery and was a major reason for its development. Factories came first, steam power followed. (And then the fsctories got bigger, and so on.) Indeed, the very word "factory" itself is significant: it is a contraction of "manufactory" from the Latin "manus" = "hand". "Manufacture" = "hand" + "make". Steam power (and even, to a lesser extent, water power) was pointless when production was dispersed in thousands of tiny centres (mostly individual homes): only after labour had been concentrated into centralised locations did the need for it become apparent. Mother of invention and all that. Tannin

Because industry required energy source (coal), transportation (sea port), and workers (new industrial cities), there was a mass migration out of villages into anonymous cities. This dislocation separated people from their traditional supports (social, cultural, spiritual). The answer to these losses was found in the industrial mentality of centralization, standardization, and co-operation (conformity). This shift found expression in the rise of professionalism (medicine, nursing, teaching, accounting, etc.), science (Darwin, etc.), classical music (Mozart then Beethoven), and mass political movements (Paris commune, oligarchy then democracy). This unprecedented change in human life is reflected in many, many statistics: world population, carbon dioxide content of Greenland ice-cap, population of mental hospitals (peaked in 1949).-- Robin Routledge

"The Industrial Revolution" should be a seperate topic than "industrial revolution". I'm sure 172 will agree. Dietary Fiber

Is there a reason for the unexplained deletion of so much text? Failing an explanation, I'll revert shortly. (Or, if there is a good reason, say so and I'll hold off.) Tannin 12:29 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I do agree with Lir/Vera, aka Dietary Fiber this once! I'd call what contemporary China's going through an "industrial revolution". It's like the capitalized "Civil War" referring to the civil war in the United States in the 1860s (in my country at least!) and lower case "civil war" referring to any civil war.

This article also needs a much more complex analytic framework for dealing with what led up to the Industrial Revolution and its impact on economic structures, political structures, class structures, and culture. I'm definitely adding this article to my list of long-term projects. Anyone willing to join me? Three excellent contributors come to mind very capable of doing this: Tannin, Sluberstein, and Jtdrl. 172

It's been on my list for some time, AS. Currently, it is very shallow. I have a part-finished major re-write of it somewhere on my hard drive (or is it still in rough notes?), probably sitting right next to the dozens of other forgotten, half-finished contributions to other things. I'm rusty, but it's one of the two or three areas of history that I know best ... er ... "knew" best. Use it or lose it - memory is a harsh taskmaster. Tannin

Note: everybody else is not welcome. (User signing as 172.172.13.108 - not to be confused with User:172 - disambiguation added by me, Tannin)

Thanks for the distinction, Tannin.

It would be great if some engineers and natural scientists, and especially historians of science, jumped into this article as well. I am completely illiterate in this area, merely knowing what was invented and whether the social structure would have been to the innovation.

Jared Diamond's assessment of the industrial revolution in Guns, Germs, and Steel is also very interesting. The users who participated in the article on this book would probably be interested in upgrading this article as well. 172

The city of Zaandam in the Netherlands claims to be the first industrial city in Europe. (http://www.zaanstad.nl/functies/pagfunctie.cfm?parameter=1807) [[Opa 12:09, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)]]

I could not read the pages in Dutch but I read the page in English, and it is a bit overly generous in its definition of what is "industrial". There is no mention of steam power or of the other traits of countries which are undergoing their first industrial revolution. On the other hand, there seems to have been, sometime around 1600, what is usually described as a very intensive pre-take-off economy, similar to that found in the most developed parts of China at a similar time or a wee bit earlier. AlainV 23:34, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)

History section

The sentence beginning "In 1771, Richard Arkwright..." has lost its ending, and the links section for the "Transportation" section appears slightly confusing/items run together.

I could add a bit to the Textile Industry section (and the link should be to something of this nature, rather than textiles as such), if requested.

Jackiespeel 15:36, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have now taken the section out and put it in "Industrial Revolution/history" (now being deleted - Noisy | Talk 11:24, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)) so that it can be developed before being put into the main article. Please feel free to hop in there and mess about, because I think it will take me a few weeks to get enough content in there to put it back on the main page. Noisy 11:07, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've moved this back, because it was listed on Wikipedia cleanup/leftovers, and you didn't make it obvious that this was a temporary thing. Please do so in the future. JesseW 23:22, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

History section talk

Don't forget to add something about the importance of mechanical engineering, mining and metallurgy in this.

In mechanical engineering, the millwright, machinery and machine tool maker made the machines which went into the factories. See, for example Richard Roberts, Henry Maudslay and his pupils, Portsmouth Block Mills.

In mining both coal,and metal mining had an important impact.

In metallurgy, as well as iron there were the non ferrous metals,like copper and alloys like brass.

From the start of the industrial revolution, publications like encyclopaedias, technical periodicals and patents were vital for the dissemination of information about machines and processes.

I hope to be adding to this work in due course Apwoolrich 07:17, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Use of "phase" to describe the Industrial Revolution

Alain V.: I have reverted your addition of the term 'first phase' because I have never come across it in any of the research I've done, and because most references that do cite an 'end' to the Industrial Revolution say that it's something like 1830 or 1840. (1840 is, I think, Toynbee's view, writing in the 1870s.) My personal view is that the IR extends from ca. 1700 to 1830, but that's all it is — a view. If you can document this use of 'phase', then I'll be happy to reconsider. Meanwhile, I'll do a search of the internet resources listed on my user page, and see if any of them mention it. Cheers, Noisy | Talk 14:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Use any term you wish instead of phase, as there is no consensus amongst economic historians or historians of technology on what to call these different steps or periods in the continuing phenomenon of rapid technological and economic change which starts in the United Kingdom sometime in the 18th century. Some call it the first and the second industrial revolution instead of the first and second phases of the changes. And there is no way any serious historian can give a precise end to the first phase/industrial revolution. Too many technologies of the first and second overlap. Toynbee by the way is not considered a serious scholar, but an out-of date populariser by modern professional historians. For the sake of convenience some good historians will pick a date when giving a lecture or writing an elementary textbook, but it is just a convenience. The classic, scholarly source for the history of technology is the multi volume (4 or 5 or 6 volumes depending on the edition you can get) history of technology edited by Derry and Wiliamn, and later by Charles Singer. I have put its abridged version in the references at the bottom of the article. It covers the Industrial revolution(s) quite well. By the way, I just did a Google search with the term "phases of the industrial revolution" and I immediatley got relevant hits. AlainV 03:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

US Influence and the 2nd Industrial Revolution

I've removed this line from the end of the final paragraph on 'Causes' -- "The restructuring of the American domestic market would trigger the second Industrial Revolution over 100 years later."

Since the article has no prior statements of what date the "100 years later" starts from, nor does it have any explanation or amplification of how changes in the US domestic market might have triggered a second industrial revolution -- I don't see the relevance or reason behind including the line I removed from the article.

Your comments are welcome and invited. Cheers, Madmagic 09:26, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Improvement Drive

moved comments from Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive:--Fenice 19:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reason: This article was actually posted on Wikipedia:Cleanup as needing work, and I thought it could be a decent AID candidate. Here was the comment from User:Madmagic:; "This article needs work. There are sections which are well-written and documented, and other sections which are blank or under-written and under-documented. The relationships between the first, second (and perhaps third) Industrial Revolutions are not made clear nor easy to understand; the Talk page is equally confused and could use streamlining. Given the ongoing importance and the relevance of the subject to daily life, including the net and Wikipedia, this is a signifigant article which IMO should be strengthened to feature article status. Right now, it's a source of confusion and uncertainty to any new reader unfamiliar with the subject."