Talk:Unification Movement International

(I think this was Ed Poor):

Note: I am a member of this church so I may be (a) biased in favor of it, but also (b) probably in a better position to understand its teachings and internal workings than others.

Yes, it was. I'm not sure when and where I should sign my contributions. I'm also trying to get a handle on the etiquette and mechanics of wiki in general. Any advice would be helpful. I mean, any helpful advice would be welcome! -- Ed Poor

There's plenty of stuff here in the Wikipedia FAQ and Wikipedia policy statements. In general, we don't sign contributions here, because no page really has an "author" per se; they are all collectively written. Commentary on talk pages, however, should be signed. --LDC

S'Okay, we all had to get started somewhere. Wikipedians are very helpful and friendly and will hold your hand as needed while you learn. Ask lots of questions when you're in doubt. You can use the Summary field for that when you submit something. --Dmerrill

In this article, mention is made of their "novel view of the Trinity", while the Trinity article lists the Unification Church among groups that don't believe in the Trinity at all. It would be helpful to further describe what their view of the Trinity is and perhaps how it compares to the classical view. --Wesley, a trinitarian

I will write this up soon. For now, the UC considers God to be unique, absolute and eternal. Jesus is a human being who achieved perfection. The holy spirit is an essence or force. (This is rough and needs more detail, which is why there's no Unification Trinity article or section.) --Ed Poor

Selected quotes on Jesus from the Divine Principle:

Jesus may well be called God because, as a man who has realized the purpose of creation and who lives in oneness with God, he has a divine nature. Nevertheless, he is not God Himself.

While on earth, Jesus was a man no different from any of us except for the fact that he was without the original sin. Even in the spirit world, where he has abided since his resurrection, Jesus lives as a spirit, as do his disciples. The only difference between them is that Jesus abides as a divine spirit, emitting brilliant rays of light, while his disciples, as life spirits, reflect that light.

A 400-word explanation of Trinity is at [1] (Note that it's buzz-word laden. It contains 6 unique terms plus 9 terms used in special senses!)

Thanks Ed. I look forward to the fuller write-up. One thing I conclude from the above synopsis is that even though the Unification and Orthodox churches have very different teachings concerning the Trinity, the Trinity remains a practical doctrine, because it describes who God is, who we are, and what hope there is for the relationship between God and humanity. Peace, --Wesley

Um, was there a particular Washington Times article that link is supposed to point to, or is the Washington Times itself somehow related to the Unification Church? --Wesley

Rev. Moon directed members of the UC to start the Washington Times, in 1982. Ed Poor

I think there should be an explanation of why it's called the Unification Church. I assume it has something to do with a desire for unity, but that's not explicitly spelled out. --Eric

Good point, Eric. My understanding is the Sun Myung Moon did not want to start just another denomination, but rather to create a movement that would unite all the denominations of Christianity. "Association for the Unification of World Christianity" is part of the long form of the church's name.

The church sees the Last Days as a time when the evil sovereignty of Satan will lose power and the good sovereignty of God will gain ascendancy. How quickly this happens is based in part on how much Christianity accepts the second coming of the Messiah, who will be born as a man on the earth.

Ed Poor

And that second Messiah is Sun Myung Moon, right? What would happen if he were to die? --Wesley

If Reverend Moon is "the Messiah" where are all the miracles? Where are the signs and wonders? "Tongue-in-cheek ED ly," one miracle was that Moon evaded taxes for a time. Next miracle would be for Ed to answer questions about his so-called software engineering skills. (then he get a plain cheese pizza slice, cold, to warm up in the microwave!)

In general, miracles are too flashy and expensive. The tax issue, which I was hoping not to get into will be covered in detail (since you ask) in a /tax case article (hint: the term trumped up charges comes to mind). As for my alleged software engineering skills, I'm still looking for the person who started that rumor. I'm a poor programmer, just ask my boss. But I will take that slice!! Ed Poor

You might have been (partly) kidding, but nonetheless I wrote these two articles in response to your comment: tax case, imprisonment

Thanks for restoring the nickname, Anome. Ed Poor

Thanks for thinking of my church, Vicki. Your edit has the "potential" to "warm" global interest in our international wedding <goofy grin>.

The church has been accused of doing so because of immigration rules.

Does the above mean "acceused of doing so to evade immigration rules, i.e., forming sham marriages for, say, economic advantage? If so, who is saying so, and what evidence do they give?

The only accusations I've heard were by the Phillipine government, which refused to recognize several marriages between South Koreans and Filipinas. Please tell what you know; such info should be in the article. Ed Poor 09:54 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I put it vaguely because I couldn't remember whether it was Uruguay, Brazil, or another South American country: the accusation is that Moon deliberately arranged for church members from that country to marry Koreans so those Koreans could immigrate and own land. (I tried a quick Web search, but it seems to have slid out of the news stories. More later, if I get the time.) You seem to know more about this than I do--you could add the Phillipine info. Vicki Rosenzweig

There's a link to global warming at the bottom of the page, that points to the general article on global warming. That article makes no mention of the Unification Church. What does one have to do with the other?? I confess I'm a bit mystified. Wesley

I haven't the slightest idea, Wesley. I saw it last week and was going to remove it, but I make a policy of avoiding peremptory reversions on anything dealing with my church. I am such a fervent advocate for my church that I have frankly given up trying to write from a neutral point of view on it, so I look to people like you to keep me honest.

Interestingly, it was just after I fussed with Vicki over global warming potential that she adding something uncomplimentary about arranged marriages and immigration law to the Unification Church article. I'm going to let it stand, because I make it a point not to debate about my religion on wikipedia. Let others say what they will. Ed Poor

?!? Well, if there's no connection between the two, and the Unification Church has nothing to do with the global warming issue, I'm going to delete the link to global warming. If someone has a reason to put it back, I hope they'll share that reason, either by adding to the main article or explaining on this Talk page. As it is, it just looks very random. And Ed, I understand your reluctance, but if there's a clear factual misstatement and *nobody* is backing up the claim or providing any support for it, as seems to be the case here, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Wesley

Query about names: while looking for info about arranged marraiges and immigration, I came across this odd statement: "Mr Moon?s organisation has lately shed much of its spiritual identity, to concentrate instead on such issues as family values and world peace. Indeed it recently dropped the word "church", renaming itself the Association of Families for Unification and World Peace."

If this is true, it belongs in the article--but I don't want to do that on one source. Ed, it's your church: has it changed its name? Vicki Rosenzweig

Yes, for the most part. There are a few church entities that for legal or administrative reasons retain the old "Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity" name (HSA-UWC). For example, http://www.hsabooks.com (online church bookstore), and my friend Mike Shea hasn't changed the URL of the http:/www.unification.org website. But we've been "The Family Federation for World Peace" for several years now (see http://www.familyfed.org ).

One thing I want to make sure of is that people don't misunderstand the reason for the name change. The quote you cited seems like just the sort of misunderstanding we'd like to avoid: we didn't "shed our spiritual identity" if that means (a) transform into a different kind of religion or (b) change our name to conceal anything. If anything, we've broadened our aims, but we're still the same old Moonies you know and love :-) Ed Poor

Okay, so can you (as someone sympathetic to the church) write a sentence or two about this and put it in the article? I think the current name should be there. Vicki Rosenzweig

I'm not sure I can be NPOV about my religion. Let me pray about it... --Ed

I'm also not sure whether (a) the Unification Church itself is changing its name, or rather (b) the main projects the church has initiated are being combined into one over-arching organization. It might be some combination of A and B.

In any case, the overall aims of the Unification Movement have not changed in the slightest. Father Moon is still trying to do what he set out to do in 1946 (eight years before the church founding), which is establish the Kingdom of God on earth. The structure and name of any organizations created to attain these goals can be varied as needed, I suppose, but the overall goal remains unchanged. Ed Poor 12:07 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

Church members take its teachings, the Unification Principle or Divine Principle, seriously.

This seems pretty insulting to me. Could you imagine an article saying "Episcopalians take their Church's teachings seriously" or "Sufi Muslims really do believe in their own religion!" Am I missing something? DanKeshet 12:10 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

I agree. That sentence should be taken out. I have winced every time I've read it, and I'm the one who wrote it. --Ed Poor

From the article:

The church teaches that ...Reverend Moon is the messiah, and that all the historical founders of all other religions have recently, in Heaven, proclaimed Moon's messiahship.

This is not an official church teaching, although the vast majority of members believe that Reverend Moon is the Messiah. As for other founders' proclamation of Moon's messiahship, I would say that not so many members would endorse that. Quite a few of my fellow members have expressed doubt about the authenticity of recently channeled messages from the spirit world, such as that concerning the December 2001 "proclamation". FWIW, I believe both points; still, neither is an "official" church teaching. --Ed Poor

Regarding the anti-semitism charge, none of the dozen or so Jewish men I know who have joined the church regard Rev. Moon or his teachings as anti-semitic (although having joined, they might be not be objective on this point). One of these men, Dr. Andrew Wilson, teaches Old Testament at our seminary. I recall reading the AJC report in the late 1970s shortly after joining the church, but it seemed to boil down to this:

The church taught that (A) Jews committed sins during the Old Testament era, and (B) the worst sin was failing to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

For those who consider any criticism of Jews as necessarily "anti-semitic", there is nothing more to be said. My church frequently criticizes sin, whether committed by its own members, historical personages (like Hitler and Stalin), or identifiable groups (like the Japanese nation in WWII, or Christianity during the Crusades).

From my point of view, criticism is not necessarily adverse. If you look at Rev. Moon's Statement On Jews And Israel, whose URL I added to the article, you might see some of the positive things Rev. Moon has said.

--Ed Poor 13:15 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)